583 lines
34 KiB
Plaintext
583 lines
34 KiB
Plaintext
LIST
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FILE ON
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MARGIN IS 76
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STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
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NUMBER OF LINES: 602
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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
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2 ********************** REMOVED: 13 AUG 83 ***************************
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3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
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11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
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12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
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13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
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14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
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15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
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16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
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17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
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18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
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19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
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20 use the replace command to replace the line.
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21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
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22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
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23 ========================================
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24
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25 TO:BOB
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26 FROM:ART
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27 SUBJECT:GONE FISHING
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28 TIME:0717HRS
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29 DATE:08/07/83
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30
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31 Just wanted you to know that we are fishing today on the river. Will
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32 attempt to contact you this evening. May even have some new fish lies.
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33 **********************************************************************.**
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34 ELBERICH: You spoke of our society responding to Loud Minority action,
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35 hinting of that being wrong in your mind, and possibly of there being
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36 little action available to correct the societal distortion brought on
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37 by Deferring to Volume. I would agree on its invalidity; I would suggest
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38 that the response pattern can be changed without waiting forever. Care
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39 to join in a "directed" discussion of that proposition?
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40 LEONARD:
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41 BAD:
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42 MIKEY:
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43 GREY GHOST: Will you all join in, too? Dave
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44 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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45 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
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46 Hello everyone. TRON's back. I'm not going to be accessable for about a
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47 week (as if anyone cared). The Pioneer and I are going to go on a little
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48 camping trip. So, bye bye!
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49
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50 The mighty TRON
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51 -_-_---_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_---_--_-_--_-___________________----------________----
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52 Mighty TRON.....huh!!!!
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53 =======================
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54 BACK TO AI: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ARTIFICIAL INTELIGENCE! SOMEONE (THING
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55 IS EITHER INTELLIGENT OR NOT. GRANTED YHERE ARE SOME OUT THERE THAT IT WOULD
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56 SEEM ARE ARTIFICIALLY INTELLIGENT, BUT ALAS THEY LIKE MOST OF US ARE JUST AS
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57 STUPID.
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58 ****************************************************************************
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59 Aug 7 83
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60 The Hoodview Amateur Radio Club will hold it's first
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61 Hamfair Aug 27 9-6 and Aug 28 9-3 at MT. Hood Community
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62 College Gym. There will be comerical displays food and
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63 swap tables (for radio and computer items only please)
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64 Admission will be $2.00 , 12 and under free. Swap
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65 tables will be $5.00. For more information send
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66 A SASE to Hamfair 83 Portland,OR 97220.
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67
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68 To:Art
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69 From:Bob
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70 How in the heack did you get to the top of the disk? I smell
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71 -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
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72
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73 Aaron:
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74 Your terminal program works a lot better now that the "sparkle" is gone.
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75 I found that the main reason that I didn't like it is because of the annoying
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76 sparkling that is always occuring (because the program is in BASIC and because
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77 the cursor is blinking so fast).
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78
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79 Thanks, The Sysm.
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80
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81 +*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*
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82 Bob: I don't think anyone cares that you smell...unless they were near you.
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83
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84 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
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85
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86 I DON'T THINK ANYONE HERE CARES IF YOUR
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87 CURSOR BLINKS RIGHT OR NOT!.
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88
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89 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
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90
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91 HELP!!!
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92
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93 ANYONE KNOWING HOW TO USE THE APPLE EDITOR ASSEMBLER PLEASE CONTACT KEVIN SUMMER
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94 HELP!!!
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95
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96 ANY ONE KNOWING HOW TO USE THE APPLE EDITOR ASSEMBLER PLEASE CONTACT KEVIN
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97 SUMMERS AT
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98
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99
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100 PORTLAND OREGON
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101 97236
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102
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103
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104 PS THATS VERSION 1.0
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105
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106 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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107
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108 Dave,
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109 I think that the main problem is that, not only is the minority
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110 loud, the majority is uninformed and prefers to remain that way. Given
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111 the choice between a television program that is not only informative, but
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112 excellently filmed and produced (such as NOVA or COSMOS), and the
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113 mindless drivel that fills most of the air time of the networks, the
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114 normal viewer will choose escapism. As a quick defense, I like to escape
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115 too, but I don't dedicate great amounts of time to it. And when I do, it
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116 is more likely to be a book than the tube. In fact, I think that the
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117 current fad of know-nothingism is directly related to the decline of
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118 reading. If you consult the statistics provided by the Booksellers of
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119 America, you will find that the number of books sold averages to be about
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120 2 per person per year. I know that I buy A LOT more than that, and I
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121 think that the users of BBS systems probably purchase more than that
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122 average too. So what it comes to is this: most people read very little,
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123 if at all. Where is I going with all this, you may well ask. Simply
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124 this: people not only aren't learning, they don't want to learn. It is
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125 so much easier to adapt to a role of complacency, allowing others to do
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126 all the thinking, and dedicate all of your leasure time to pleasure.
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127 Hobbies are becoming a thing of the past, as people spend their lives
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128 feet up, beer in hand, and baseball on the tube.
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129 So I would have to say that, to solve the problem of anti-tech, and
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130 anti-intellectualism in general, we must start with education. And not
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131 the silly ideas that Mr. Reagan foists off as a solution, but deeper. We
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132 have to teach THE JOY OF LEARNING along with the knowledge, what is often
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133 called "The AHA! experience". Most computer hackers are intimately
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134 familiar with this feeling. Remember the last time you had a program
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135 with a bad bug? You sweated and strained, tried so many different things
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136 that didn't work, and nearly gave up. Then, one evening, POW!!!
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137 THE ANSWER!!!! What a great feeling! This is something that we make no
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138 effort to teach, as we are so busy cramming facts in those little heads.
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139 So here is a beginning to the proposed round-table discussion.
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140 Anyone else?
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141 /Elberich\
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142 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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143 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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144
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145 IS THE JOY OF LEARNING SOMETHING LIKE THE JOY OF COOKING? I THINK I SAW THAT
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146 ON THE LATE NIGHT DRIVEL AT THE MOVIES LAST WEEK. ANYBODY ELSE SEE IT?
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147
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148 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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149
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150 TO:Bob
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151 FROM:ART
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152 SUBJECT:SMELLS
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153
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154 THE HECK YOU SAY!
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155
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156 ******************************************************************************
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157 the problem with instilling the 'joy of learning', is that most teachers are
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158 unable to do that. First, you would have to re-educate most of the teachers!
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159 -------Grey Ghost------------------------------------------
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160 To:Art
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161 From:Bob
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162 I see you are editing my comments, I am going to have
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163 to have a talk with your model IV.HI HI. Talk to you later.
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164 PS I use Avon deodorant so say something nasty about that
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165 and I send Terrie over. HI HI
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166 What do you mean "re-educate" the teachers? How about just educating them
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167 to start with. It is really appalling when you see the quality of teaching that is foisted off on our young today!!!
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168 I say to hell with merit pay, lets just knock off a hundred dollars a year for each student that can't pass a competency test.
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169 Maybe that will get them either on the ball or out of the classroom. Whatever happened to those dedicated souls that taught for
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170 the shear delight in seeing a young person become productive in life?????????
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171 *******************************************************************************************************************************
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172 As we continue, Grey and Elberich and others (are you Bob from 166 to 170),
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173 let's keep in mind that teachers tend to make their own rules unless rules
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174 are given to them. If non-teachers are to demand that teachers learn again
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175 the technique and the joy of teaching, we who do not work for a formal
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176 education system have two obligations: we must define what we expect from
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177 them, and we must support them thru our actions and our dollars. In short,
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178 we can help them to teach by removing from their lives the pain of teaching
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179 : worthless administrators, irrational parents, loud- and foul-mouthed
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180 disruptive students, fear of reprisal for an unpopular action in teaching
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181 or discipline, political control (for political gain) of educational money,
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182 etc. If you and I ask for change for the better, we must ACT to demonstrat
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183 e our devotion to that change; this is our contribution to the motivation
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184 toward resurgence of the joy of teaching.
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185 But, re-directing ourselves to the Power of the Loud Minority, can we,
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186 thru our actions, our resolve, our self-discipline in unselfishly and con-
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187 stantly evaluating FOR THE GREATEST GOOD FOR THE GREATEST NUMBER, lead onto
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188 a new course the Loud Minority itself? Yes, if we offer our leadership for
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189 A RIGHT REASON! Our best offering is not mere criticism, but critically
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190 devised constructive suggestion. The analysts among us can and should offer
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191 our talents without regard for reward beyond self-satisfaction! Dave
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192 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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193 AH!!!! SOME NEW BLOOD ON THE SYSTEM!
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194 (OR NEW TRANSISTORS?)....
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195
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196 US "REGULARS" SHOULD ENJOY THIS!
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197 ----------------------------------------
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198 Dave:
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199
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200 Bull.
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201
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202 Paul
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203
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204 ----------------------------------------------------
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205
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206
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207 Paul: Very constructive. I'm impressed. Now would you like to
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208 explain exactly what you mean by that?
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209 ----------------------------------------------------
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210
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211
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212 ---------------------------------------------
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213 To "Who ever":
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214 Certainly, to who ever will identify themselves with other than
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215 dead air.
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216
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217 Paul
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218 --------------------------------------------------
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219 To: "Who ever":
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220 Excuse me, actually that was in bad taste ....
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221 Actually what I wanted to express
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222 was that I am opposed to you're
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223 position based basically in your term
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224 of "the greatest good for the greatest
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225 number" ... I think that this is a
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226 mistake in the idea that at the
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227 present time our educational system is
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228 based on a striving for this same
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229 "ideal". As far as I am concerned it
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230 hasn't worked, and further it's an
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231 un-workable proposition.
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232 Our society is in a critical period,
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233 we are a techno-society, and yet we
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234 have very few people that are engaged
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235 in the production of that
|
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236 same technology that has become a
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237 mainstay for us.
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238 I do not believe that our present
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239 educational system is able to produce
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240 the free-think, innovative people that
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241 we need, yet we have poured millions,
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242 BILLIONS of dollars into a system
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243 produces mediocre thinks ... based on
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244 the idea of "the greatest good ... "
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245
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246
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247
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248 Paul
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249
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250 -------------------------------------------------
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251
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252
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253 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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254
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255 The concept of "The Greatest Good...etc." seems to support mediocrity. We need to not only provide education for all,
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256 but to provide encouragement. Some of this can be brought about by education at the level of the individual. The most
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257 productive and enjoyable classes I have taken have been tutorial, with "lectures" in written form, and instructors
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258 available for individual consultation when necessary. This allows the student to work at the speed best for them, and
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259 provides individual instruction when problems are encountered. Granted, this form wouldn't work with some, but there
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260 are many for whom it would, particularly the self-starters. Another problem is getting students to do homework. Few
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261 parents today worry about their children's education, except when they can complain. Forcing their kids to do their
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262 homework is emotionally exhausting, and it takes discipline to deal productively with a recalcitrant child. Its so
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263 much easier to let them watch "Dukes of Hazard" and go to bed then to fight with them. As far as "dedicated teachers"
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264 , why should a teacher be more or less dedicated than anyone else? And dedication can be destroyed quickly, almost as
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265 quickly as idealism. As Paul said, we are in need of a massive restructuring of our educational system, and emotional
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266 ranting or political posturing isn't going to accomplish much.
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267 /Elberich\
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268 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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269 ##############################
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270 TO: all
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271 RE: "greatest good in education"
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272
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273 I should have thought that those conversing throughh the keyboards of their computers would have a better mathematical sense
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274 The "greatest good for the greatest number" is an attempt to optimize two variables simultaneousely. Can't be done folks.
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275 It's an interesting political slogan, but not even the beginning of a practical solution.
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276
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277 Addison
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278 #######################
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279 ########################
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280 Another point.
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281
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282 let's not forget the reasons behind Jefferson's original proposals for free public schooling. He believed that a democracy
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283 without educated citizens would not enjoy freedom long. And by educated, Jefferson did not mean just the practical arts
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284 of engineering. He included the humanities, and political philosophy (what today would be called the social sciences.)
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285 perceived threats to the technostructure on which our society rests. But that threat has been viewed narrowly, I think.
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286 EMathematicians, physicists, and engineers may be vital for technical innovation, but remember that it rests with the body
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287 politic to do something intelligent with the wonders (and the horrors) thus released.
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288
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289 Addison
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290 ######################
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291 Paul, Elberich, Addison: I have now seen some of your observations, some of
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292 your opinions, some of your (mis)interpretations...What are your PRAGMATIC
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293 SUGGESTIONS? What ACTIONS will you take in support of them? Dave
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294 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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295 Firstly, an interesting(?) observation: We are attempting to discuss solutions to the "problem" of "things being decided by a
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296 loud minority". Right? We ARE a "loud minority"! (now that THAT is out of the way......)
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297 I have a VERY disturbing observation to recount regarding the current public school teacher. My mother is a retired teacher.
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298 (she is in her 70s!) She retired about 1950. I'm only 29 & my brother is 23. Recently I was helping her clean out some old
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299 papers my brother had left behind when he moved. A number of them were "dittoed" assignments from various classes he had had
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300 in high school. I was APALLED! On several ENGLISH assignments
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301 the TEACHER had used spelling & grammar SO POOR that I would have been FLUNKED if I had done that poorly in MY high school
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302 classes. AND THIS WAS A TEACHER?! I asked my mother about the assignment sheets. She had tried to get something done, but
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303 neither the teacher OR THE SCHOOL cared!
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304 I have heard from other sources that MANY teacher (lower grades & high school) are FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE! How are we going
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305 to break the cycle that has started? In some areas, we are about to start the THIRD generation of ILLITERATES. If you want to
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306 find out how bad things are, pick a "good" public college or university. Find out how many freshman are taking "bonehead
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307 english". The answer is liable to shock you. (remember I said good, ie PSU not PCC!)
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308 Or for that matter check the spelling & grammar on the BBS's, there are a lot of INTELLIGENT people out there who can
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309 just barely make themselves understood using WRITTEN ENGLISH.
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310 We need to find a way to teach English & reading/studying skills. You can't learn much of anything else until you have those
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311 skills. Unfortunately, competency tests are usually administered too late (the end of the term). I suggest that FIRST we set
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312 minimum standards for graduation from each grade. SECOND: ALL TEACHERS must be able to pass ALL the competency tests for the
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313 NEXT HIGHER division (ie grade school must pass Jr. high, jr high must pass high school, etc).
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314 I said all tests, because I can see no reason for allowing, say an Math teacher, to be ignorant of English or History.
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315 Speaking of History (& "Social Studies" etc), why can't they standardize the curiculum. When I was school, we start studying
|
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316 history ALL OVER AGAIN every Sept. Finally, in my junior year in high school, a teacher had us START with the second volume
|
||
317 of a 2-volume history book. That was the only time we ever got past the Civil War! I know that repetition is supposed to help
|
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318 you learn, but really now! There are other examples of the same sort of thing in almost everything except Math & (some)
|
||
319 Science classes. They avoid this problem WITHOUT tying you to a "fixed" curiculum, by standardizing the course names
|
||
320 (Algebra, geometry, etc instead of just "math") & by requiring specific things to be learned in each course. Finally, they
|
||
321 note that some courses require others to be taken first. Compare this to most English classes (or worse "Social Studies")
|
||
322 I once managed to avoid taking an English class (the teacher & I didn't get along!) by taking a class in LOGIC! How, you ask?
|
||
323 Well they were both English credits.......
|
||
324 In summary, we need to make sure the teachers are qualified (I don't care WHAT that diploma says- TEST THEM!), and we need
|
||
325 more structure to the ENTIRE educational system. (note: I said structure, not NECCESSARILY rigidity!)
|
||
326 ____________________________Leonard____________________________
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||
327
|
||
328
|
||
329 ON A LIGHTER TOPIC , AND STILL WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF LEARNING .
|
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330
|
||
331 DOES ANY ONE NKNOW OF A ROUTINE OR SOME SUCH COMPARABLE INSTRUCTION SET THAT WOULD ALLOW
|
||
332 AN 80-COLUMN SMARTERM II BOARD AND A MICROMODEMII CARD TO OPERATE IN HARMONY ?
|
||
333
|
||
334 MY APPLE DOES NOT WORK WHEN BOTH ARE ACTIVE . IE "IN#2","PR#3"...... IT JUST BOMBS INTO MONITOR !
|
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335
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||
336 I HAVE POKED,PEEKED AND CALLED..............IT EVERYTHING AND STILL THE " AHHH I HAVE IT " EXPERIENCE ELUDES ME .
|
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337
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||
338 IF ANYONE KNOWS OF WHAT INCANTATIONS ARE REQUIRED LET ME KNOW.........
|
||
339
|
||
340 I DONT HAVE THAT MUCH MORE FORMICA LEFT ON THE TABLE TO GNAW.......
|
||
341
|
||
342 PERIODONTICALY YOURS
|
||
343 ROBIN RAMSEY
|
||
344 DEAR ELBERITCH,
|
||
345 IN COUNTERPOINT, ONE MIGHT NOTE THAT MORE BOOKS ARE NOW BEING SOLD (AND
|
||
346 PRESUMABLY READ) THAN AT ANY OTHER TIME IN THE UNITED STATES, EVEN ON A
|
||
347 PER-CAPITA BASIS. THE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY CONSIDERS THIS TO BE A GOLDEN AGE
|
||
348 OF PROFITS, ACCORDING TO BARRON'S MAGAZINE. PERHAPS MORE PEOPLE THAN YOU
|
||
349 THINK ARE UNWILLING TO ACCEPT TELEVISION AS THEIR ONLY INPUT.
|
||
350 CHUCK
|
||
351 *************************************************************************
|
||
352 ************************************************************************
|
||
353 DEAR FOLKS IN THE EDUCATION DSICUSSION,
|
||
354 PERHAPS IF THE DISCUSSION IS TO BE MORE TO THE POINT, THESE TWO THINGS
|
||
355 WOULD HELP:
|
||
356 1) A LITTLE LESS PUT-THEM-DOWN-MAKE-MYSELF-LOOK-BIG SORT OF TALK.
|
||
357 2) MORE PRACTICAL SUGGESTIONS (IN PLACE OF THE CONDEMNATIONS) E.G. WHAT
|
||
358 ABOUT INSISTING ON TEACHERS COLLEGES HAVING HIGHER THAN AVERAGE
|
||
359 STANDARDS FOR GRADUATION AND ADMISSION. FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER,
|
||
360 STUDENTS WHO WERE INSECURE IN THEIR ACADEMIC STANDING AND SCOLASTIC
|
||
361 TALENTS HAVE CHOSEN TEACHING COLLEGES TO ATTEND. TEACHERS DO HAVE TO
|
||
362 BE ACCREDITED BY SOME ORGANIZATION IN ALL STATES, AS FAR AS I KNOW.
|
||
363 ONCE WE HAVE TIGHTENED UP THE STANDARDS FOR TEACHERS COLLEGES WE
|
||
364 COULD BE IN A GOOD SPOT TO TIGHTEN UP STANDARDS FOR TEACHING CERTIFICATES.
|
||
365 HOW ABOUT PERIODIC RE-TESTING OF TEACHERS TO KEEP THEIR CERTIFICATES.
|
||
366 HOW ABOUT A TOUGH TEST BEFORE GRADUATION FROM 8TH OR 9TH GRADE - I THINK
|
||
367 TESTING FOR MINIMUM STANDARDS DURING SENIOR YEAR IS A LITTLE TOO LATE, TO
|
||
368 SAY THE LEAST.
|
||
369 CHUCK HUGHES
|
||
370 P.S. CAN COMPUTER AIDED INSTRUCTION SAVE THE WHOLE SYSTEM. OR HOW MUCH OF IT?
|
||
371 ***************************************************************************
|
||
372 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
373
|
||
374 Fine, folks, here are some suggestions:
|
||
375 1) I have seen a great deal about what we need to do to make Teachers more competant. Periodic evaluations,
|
||
376 testing, etc.. Some good ideas here, but we need more. The best teacher in the world can do little with a child
|
||
377 that comes to class unprepared. If the homework isn't done, Socrates himself would be unable to teach. So we need
|
||
378 more parent involvement, and not just on the PTA level. The parent should take an active interest in their child's
|
||
379 education, helping and learning along with their child, and answering questions.Many parents feel that schools are the
|
||
380 place for education, and that they don't need to be involved.
|
||
381 2) Proper nutrition. Most of us in the computer generation probably think that this isn't a problem, but we
|
||
382 aren't exposed to it day after day. Hunger is a real problem, and a hungry child doesn't learn. In fact, a poorly
|
||
383 fed simply doesn't grow properly, and will never attain its potential.
|
||
384 3) Directed education at the upper levels. When I was in high school, most councilors laughed at the idea of
|
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385 trade schools, and told the students that they were a dead end. Unfortunately, this discouraged many who had real
|
||
386 talent. I think (hope?) this is changing, but I'm not so sure. Any comment from someone still in public school?
|
||
387 There are many teachers that simply don't belong in the profession, and I'm sure we all have horror stories about
|
||
388 incompetancy. Teachers have become afraid to fail a student doing poorly, because they fear it will reflect on them.
|
||
389 So testing of teachers can't be based on how many students they pass. Perhaps it might be on how many students they
|
||
390 pass who later show they don't know the things they were supposed to learn.
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||
391 Paul, are you out there? Let's hear more from you.
|
||
392 /Elberich\
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||
393 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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||
394 ----------------------------------------------
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||
395 To: Elberich, and all involved in this
|
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396 discussion.
|
||
397
|
||
398 Took me a while to get back to this
|
||
399 discussion, alot of ideas were thrown
|
||
400 out while I was gone ... anyway ...
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||
401 I would like to comment on some selected topics that were brought up.
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||
402
|
||
403 As far as the people on this MS
|
||
404 being a "loud minority",
|
||
405 my opinion is that this couldn't be
|
||
406 farther from the truth ...
|
||
407 if anything this is a very pure form
|
||
408 of democracy because EVERYONE that
|
||
409 as a modem, and some form of computer
|
||
410 or terminal can make themselves heared.
|
||
411 A proplem with standardization of
|
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412 curriculum, and books is that since
|
||
413 the majority of primary, and second-
|
||
414 ary schools are locally funded there
|
||
415 would be no practical way to make
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416 all of them (even most of them)
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417 standardized.
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||
418
|
||
419 "more books sold then ever before"
|
||
420 true in fact, but not in content, I'm
|
||
421 afraid. The book publishing business
|
||
422 is getting to a place were they are
|
||
423 less and less willing to publish
|
||
424 "new" books or unknown authors. The
|
||
425 cost involved in publication is getting
|
||
426 to a place were it is to explensive to
|
||
427 publish any but "mainstream" authors.
|
||
428 This is not quite as extreme in tech
|
||
429 books, but look how expensive they are
|
||
430 anymore. Its nothing to drop $15 on
|
||
431 a paperback!
|
||
432
|
||
433 Computer assisted education is
|
||
434 the wave of the future, if we can
|
||
435 get away from the rote methods used
|
||
436 in the software so far to some real
|
||
437 innovative programming methods.
|
||
438
|
||
439 Tech-schools, I totally agree,
|
||
440 they are much under-rated and very
|
||
441 important for us now.
|
||
442
|
||
443 Paul
|
||
444 ---------------------------------------------------
|
||
445
|
||
446 What a bunch of druel.....You people need some druel buckets....
|
||
447 Can't we talk on here about neat subjects like sex, violence,
|
||
448 war, movies, etc... (not that any of them are tied together)....
|
||
449
|
||
450
|
||
451 Signed,
|
||
452 DRUER
|
||
453 ----------------------------------------------------
|
||
454 To ALL:
|
||
455 Like I said earlier, the perfect
|
||
456 democracy ... need I say more?
|
||
457 Paul
|
||
458 ----------------------------------------------------
|
||
459
|
||
461
|
||
462 *********************************************************
|
||
463 pairs on most popular types
|
||
464 the better cameras - Nikon, Pentax, Rollei, Canon,
|
||
465 lts, etc. If your camera has been sitting for a long
|
||
466 ime, perhaps it is time to get it tuned up, have the
|
||
467 ter and speeds checked, and be certain that everything
|
||
468 king properly.
|
||
469 I work in my home, and you can reach me most any-
|
||
470 during the dat at 238-xxxx. If I cannot answer right
|
||
471 way, my recorder will step in for me and take your
|
||
472 ssage. Don't be afraid to describe your service require-
|
||
473 s, for I will be back to you ASAP.
|
||
474 *************YOURS TRUELY - STEVE OVERTON***************
|
||
493
|
||
494 TOP
|
||
495 Before you concemn the teachers, please note that a competent teacher is not
|
||
496 going to stay in such a lousy, low-paying, dirty job, not when he/she can get
|
||
497 twice or better elsewhere. A good place to start is to pay them what they are
|
||
498 worth. Then you can require more from them. However, a student is only in
|
||
499 class a small part of the day, and his parents must also get involved.
|
||
500 The claim that schooling is getting worse all the time just isn't true, that
|
||
501 claim is probably the oldest written philosopy, and after 4,000 years is still
|
||
502 phony. As to whether reading is needed, I fear it is approaching obsolescence.
|
||
503 How about arithmetic? Essential? Ain't no way: totally obsolete. It is pure
|
||
504 stupidity to waste several years of your life learning to do poorly what
|
||
505 a five dollar calulator can do better. If what you need is available from TV,
|
||
506 why bother to read it out of a book? The number of books sold is not too
|
||
507 relevant, either: I get most of mine second hand, and a fair number of the
|
||
508 rest from the library. As to CAI, it has great potential, but what I have
|
||
509 seen so far I wouldn't wish on a dog. (He wouldn't get much less from it than
|
||
510 most students.) Trade schools are very much out of fashion, college is in,
|
||
511 and a degree in basket weaving is worth more than a real knowlege of how to
|
||
512 do something. Maybe a new name is required (Portland School of esoteric
|
||
513 electron bending?)
|
||
514 /////////////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
|
||
515 Dear Cistoy Mikey,
|
||
516 I understand you have been out of work for some time now...
|
||
517 Whatcha been doin' Mikey??? Eating your lifetime supply of LIFE
|
||
518 cereal I bet?????
|
||
519
|
||
520 Well, it's time for bed...nighty night.....sleep tight,...and
|
||
521 don't let the PROGRAM bugs bite!!
|
||
522
|
||
523 signed, SECRET ADMIRER
|
||
524 ---------
|
||
525 Arithmetic is NOT obsolete! What are you going to do when the
|
||
526 batteries run down at work? Or when the !$&'(W#" thing won't work? In any case,
|
||
527 I got my present job thru CETA and they had to put ALL trainees for my company
|
||
528 thru a basic math course (the employer doesn't think arithmetic is obselete!).
|
||
529 I saw people in this course who had trouble adding 27 & 59 to get the same
|
||
530 answer twice running, yet ALL of them came out able to handle
|
||
531 Math (say thru 8th grade...) satisfactorily. It DOESN'T take years.
|
||
532 As for reading, I have worked with a "turkey" who boasts that he has NEVER read
|
||
533 a book. (claims to have not read the textbooks in school!)
|
||
534 On tests, standards, etc. I STILL think we need better & more uniform standards
|
||
535 for educational performance of both students AND teachers. Tests should be
|
||
536 given AT LEAST every year (something like S.A.T., maybe?). If you don't pass the
|
||
537 test you don't pass on to the next grade either! At the same time I see no
|
||
538 why bright kids can't TRY the tests for a more advanced grade, if they make it
|
||
539 then they can "skip" a grade. (I know that most psychologists say that is "bad"
|
||
540 for the child- he won't "get along" with the other kids in the higher grade.
|
||
541 Well, it seems to have escaped their notice that the bright kids usually aren't
|
||
542 "getting along" in their CURRENT grade. I know, I've been there!)
|
||
543 In my previous msg, I didn't say that the TEXTBOOKS needed to be the same, I
|
||
544 said that the CURRICULUM needed to be standardized. ie upon completion of a 3rd
|
||
545 grade math class, you would be expected to know certain things AS A CONDITION OF
|
||
546 PASSING, no matter WHERE you had gone to school. In high school & college math
|
||
547 and science classes this is ALMOST ALWAYS true. In other college
|
||
548 classes this is USUALLY true. In most other classes (below college) this is
|
||
549 RARELY true. I know, I know "locally supported schools can't afford that". Well,
|
||
550 if they can't then they'd better quit pretending that they are "educating" their
|
||
551 kids.
|
||
552 I was criticized because of the expense of a "standard"
|
||
553 curriculum, yet no one criticized the person who wanted HIGHER PAY for the
|
||
554 teachers!! Hey, folks- it all comes out of the SAME funds. You can see how much
|
||
555 people REALLY care about education by seeing how they vote on school levies. You
|
||
556 know-- "put your money where your mouth is"...
|
||
557 I wonder what would happen if we were to seperate school funds into a fund for
|
||
558 paying teachers, buying textbooks & equipment, and maintaining/building school
|
||
559 buildings; AND a fund for sports, drama club, etc. (referred to hereafter as the
|
||
560 "S" fund & the "E" fund respectively). These funds would be raised by SEPERATE
|
||
561 levies. A basketball game would have the "E" fund paying the "S" fund rental
|
||
562 & maintainence on the gym, salaries for all school personnel involved (except
|
||
563 for volunteers) etc. This would eliminate the "standard" trick of "dropping
|
||
564 sports" etc when the levy fails, and just MAYBE it would bring home how much
|
||
565 education REALLY COSTS. Of course, I don't expect this to be done, it takes away
|
||
566 too many of the excuses that everone wants to hide behind. We ARE a minority.
|
||
567 (Modems ain't cheap, and except for a few kids MOST of us had to EARN the money
|
||
568 at a job the requires SOME intelligence & education <as does using the modem!>)
|
||
569 By spreading out the cost of education, and farming out the job to teachers,
|
||
570 we have removed the sense of responsibility from the parent. Unfortunately, I
|
||
571 think it is too late to go back.
|
||
572 _________________________________Leonard________________________
|
||
573 IF JON STEELE EVER ACCESSES THIS SYSTEM PLEASE CONTACT Q-1
|
||
574 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
||
575 Leonard: That's the kind of thing that CAN REVERSE a trend: new disclosures of
|
||
576 public operations, honest and committed to delivering full value. If we must
|
||
577 talk of emodern 'free' basic education, I might suggest taking your modest
|
||
578 proposal a bit farther:
|
||
579 Each property owner is taxed his proportional share for the true expense
|
||
580 of maintaining the physical facilities and grounds of his school district. One
|
||
581 can, I suppose, argue for the many benefits available to all in non-educational
|
||
582 activities held on school grounds and for schools 'general societal benefit'.
|
||
583 Each family unit is 'taxed' for each student attending public school:
|
||
584 the amount would proportionally cover all book, supplies, teaching and admini-
|
||
585 strative salary, and extra-curricular expenses allocable to that student. This
|
||
586 tends to make the public system similar to a private system: students and
|
||
587 parents face the real cost of education, demand value from their taxes, direct
|
||
588 the course of educational evolution, define acceptable teacher-student-admin
|
||
589 relations, and have no one to blame failings upon except themselves. The 'tax'
|
||
590 would place a burden on younger families, but persons without children - both
|
||
591 singles and older people - will be freed of the never-ending cash drain. I
|
||
592 suppose that laws requiring attendance, state and Federal funding, and all the
|
||
593 political juggling surrounding public schools now (even court decisions) could
|
||
594 be adjusted, as could some means to spread out a family's tuition costs, if
|
||
595 necessary. My guess is, though, costs would drop substantially without marked
|
||
596 reduction in real learning, making public education a good value again.
|
||
597 ~~~~~~~~ What say you all to this proposal? Dave ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
||
598
|
||
599
|
||
600
|
||
601
|
||
602
|
||
|