textfiles/messages/BACKWATER/bw830813.txt

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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ********************** REMOVED: 13 AUG 83 ***************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24 
25 TO:BOB
26 FROM:ART
27 SUBJECT:GONE FISHING
28 TIME:0717HRS
29 DATE:08/07/83
30 
31 Just wanted you to know that we are fishing today on the river.  Will
32 attempt to contact you this evening.  May even have some new fish lies.
33 **********************************************************************.**
34 ELBERICH:  You spoke of our society responding to Loud Minority action,
35 hinting of that being wrong in your mind, and possibly of there being 
36 little action available to correct the societal distortion brought on
37 by Deferring to Volume.  I would agree on its invalidity; I would suggest
38 that the response pattern can be changed without waiting forever.   Care
39 to join in a "directed" discussion of that proposition?   
40 LEONARD:  
41 BAD:
42 MIKEY:
43 GREY GHOST:  Will you all join in, too?   Dave
44 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
45 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
46 Hello everyone. TRON's back. I'm not going to be accessable for about a
47 week (as if anyone cared). The Pioneer and I are going to go on a little
48 camping trip. So, bye bye!
49 
50                      The mighty TRON
51 -_-_---_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_---_--_-_--_-___________________----------________----
52 Mighty TRON.....huh!!!!
53 =======================
54 BACK TO AI: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ARTIFICIAL INTELIGENCE! SOMEONE (THING
55 IS EITHER INTELLIGENT OR NOT. GRANTED YHERE ARE SOME OUT THERE THAT IT WOULD
56 SEEM ARE ARTIFICIALLY INTELLIGENT, BUT ALAS THEY LIKE MOST OF US ARE JUST AS
57 STUPID.
58 ****************************************************************************
59 Aug 7 83
60      The Hoodview Amateur Radio Club will hold it's first 
61 Hamfair Aug 27 9-6 and Aug 28 9-3 at MT. Hood Community 
62 College Gym. There will be comerical displays food and
63 swap tables (for radio and computer items only please)
64      Admission will be $2.00 , 12 and under free. Swap
65 tables will be $5.00. For more information send 
66 A SASE to Hamfair 83 Portland,OR 97220.
67 
68 To:Art
69 From:Bob
70 How in the heack did you get to the top of the disk? I smell
71 -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
72 
73 Aaron:
74    Your terminal program works a lot better now that the "sparkle" is gone.
75 I found that the main reason that I didn't like it is because of the annoying
76 sparkling that is always occuring (because the program is in BASIC and because
77 the cursor is blinking so fast).
78 
79 Thanks, The Sysm.
80 
81 +*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*
82 Bob: I don't think anyone cares that you smell...unless they were near you.
83 
84 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
85 
86 I DON'T THINK ANYONE HERE CARES IF YOUR 
87 CURSOR BLINKS RIGHT OR NOT!.
88 
89 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
90 
91 HELP!!!
92 
93 ANYONE KNOWING HOW TO USE THE APPLE EDITOR ASSEMBLER PLEASE CONTACT KEVIN SUMMER
94 HELP!!!
95 
96 ANY ONE KNOWING HOW TO USE THE APPLE EDITOR ASSEMBLER PLEASE CONTACT KEVIN
97 SUMMERS AT
98 
99 
100 PORTLAND OREGON
101 97236
102 
103 
104 PS THATS VERSION 1.0
105 
106 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
107 
108 Dave,
109      I think that the main problem is that, not only is the minority
110 loud, the majority is uninformed and prefers to remain that way.  Given    
111 the choice between a television program that is not only informative, but 
112 excellently filmed and produced (such as NOVA or COSMOS), and the         
113 mindless drivel that fills most of the air time of the networks, the       
114 normal viewer will choose escapism.  As a quick defense, I like to escape
115 too, but I don't dedicate great amounts of time to it.  And when I do, it
116 is more likely to be a book than the tube.  In fact, I think that the     
117 current fad of know-nothingism is directly related to the decline of
118 reading.  If you consult the statistics provided by the Booksellers of    
119 America, you will find that the number of books sold averages to be about
120 2 per person per year.  I know that I buy A LOT more than that, and I     
121 think that the users of BBS systems probably purchase more than that       
122 average too.  So what it comes to is this: most people read very little,   
123 if at all.  Where is I going with all this, you may well ask.  Simply     
124 this: people not only aren't learning, they don't want to learn.  It is   
125 so much easier to adapt to a role of complacency, allowing others to do   
126 all the thinking, and dedicate all of your leasure time to pleasure.      
127 Hobbies are becoming a thing of the past, as people spend their lives     
128 feet up, beer in hand, and baseball on the tube.
129      So I would have to say that, to solve the problem of anti-tech, and   
130 anti-intellectualism in general, we must start with education.  And not    
131 the silly ideas that Mr. Reagan foists off as a solution, but deeper.  We 
132 have to teach THE JOY OF LEARNING along with the knowledge, what is often 
133 called "The AHA! experience".  Most computer hackers are intimately       
134 familiar with this feeling.  Remember the last time you had a program     
135 with a bad bug?  You sweated and strained, tried so many different things
136 that didn't work, and nearly gave up.  Then, one evening, POW!!! 
137 THE ANSWER!!!!  What a great feeling!  This is something that we make no
138 effort to teach, as we are so busy cramming facts in those little heads.
139      So here is a beginning to the proposed round-table discussion.       
140 Anyone else?
141                   /Elberich\
142 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
143 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
144 
145 IS THE JOY OF LEARNING SOMETHING LIKE THE JOY OF COOKING? I THINK I SAW THAT
146 ON THE LATE NIGHT DRIVEL AT THE MOVIES LAST WEEK. ANYBODY ELSE SEE IT?
147 
148 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
149 
150 TO:Bob
151 FROM:ART
152 SUBJECT:SMELLS
153 
154 THE HECK YOU SAY!
155 
156 ******************************************************************************
157 the problem with instilling the 'joy of learning', is that most teachers are
158 unable to do that. First, you would have to re-educate most of the teachers!
159 -------Grey Ghost------------------------------------------
160 To:Art
161 From:Bob
162      I see you are editing my comments, I am going to have
163 to have a talk with your model IV.HI HI. Talk to you later.
164 PS I use Avon deodorant so say something nasty about that 
165 and I send Terrie over. HI HI
166 What do you mean "re-educate" the teachers? How about just educating them
167 to start with. It is really appalling when you see the quality of teaching that is foisted off on our young today!!!
168 I say to hell with merit pay, lets just knock off a hundred dollars a year for each student that can't pass a competency test.
169 Maybe that will get them either on the ball or out of the classroom. Whatever happened to those dedicated souls that taught for
170 the shear delight in seeing a young person become productive in life?????????
171 *******************************************************************************************************************************
172 As we continue, Grey and Elberich and others (are you Bob from 166 to 170),
173 let's keep in mind that teachers tend to make their own rules unless rules
174 are given to them.  If non-teachers are to demand that teachers learn again
175 the technique and the joy of teaching, we who do not work for a formal
176 education system have two obligations: we must define what we expect from
177 them, and we must support them thru our actions and our dollars.  In short,
178 we can help them to teach by removing from their lives the pain of teaching
179 : worthless administrators, irrational parents, loud- and foul-mouthed
180 disruptive students, fear of reprisal for an unpopular action in teaching
181 or discipline, political control (for political gain) of educational money,
182 etc.  If you and I ask for change for the better, we must ACT to demonstrat
183 e our devotion to that change;  this is our contribution to the motivation
184 toward resurgence of the joy of teaching.
185 But, re-directing ourselves to the Power of the Loud Minority, can we,
186 thru our actions, our resolve, our self-discipline in unselfishly and con-
187 stantly evaluating FOR THE GREATEST GOOD FOR THE GREATEST NUMBER, lead onto
188 a new course the Loud Minority itself?  Yes, if we offer our leadership for
189 A RIGHT REASON!  Our best offering is not mere criticism, but critically
190 devised constructive suggestion. The analysts among us can and should offer
191 our talents without regard for reward beyond self-satisfaction!     Dave
192 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
193 AH!!!! SOME NEW BLOOD ON THE SYSTEM!
194 (OR NEW TRANSISTORS?)....
195 
196 US "REGULARS" SHOULD ENJOY THIS!
197 ----------------------------------------
198 Dave:
199 
200     Bull.
201 
202                            Paul 
203 
204 ----------------------------------------------------
205 
206 
207 Paul:  Very constructive.  I'm impressed.  Now would you like to
208 explain exactly what you mean by that?
209 ----------------------------------------------------
210 
211 
212 ---------------------------------------------
213 To "Who ever":
214    Certainly, to who ever will identify themselves with other than 
215 dead air.
216 
217                         Paul 
218 --------------------------------------------------
219 To: "Who ever":
220   Excuse me, actually that was in bad taste ....
221   Actually what I wanted to express
222 was that I am opposed to you're 
223 position based basically in your term
224 of "the greatest good for the greatest
225 number" ... I think that this is a 
226 mistake in the idea that at the
227 present time our educational system is
228 based on a striving for this same 
229 "ideal". As far as I am concerned it
230 hasn't worked, and further it's an
231 un-workable proposition.
232   Our society is in a critical period,
233 we are a techno-society, and yet we 
234 have very few people that are engaged
235 in the production of that
236 same technology that has become a 
237 mainstay for us.
238 I do not believe that our present
239 educational system is able to produce
240 the free-think, innovative people that
241 we need, yet we have poured millions,
242 BILLIONS of dollars into a system
243 produces mediocre thinks ... based on
244 the idea of "the greatest good ... "
245 
246 
247 
248                    Paul
249 
250 -------------------------------------------------
251 
252 
253 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
254 
255 The concept of "The Greatest Good...etc." seems to support mediocrity.  We need to not only provide education for all,
256 but to provide encouragement.  Some of this can be brought about by education at the level of the individual.  The most
257 productive and enjoyable classes I have taken have been tutorial, with "lectures" in written form, and instructors
258 available for individual consultation when necessary.  This allows the student to work at the speed best for them, and
259 provides individual instruction when problems are encountered.  Granted, this form wouldn't work with some, but there
260 are many for whom it would, particularly the self-starters.  Another problem is getting students to do homework.  Few 
261 parents today worry about their children's education, except when they can complain.  Forcing their kids to do their
262 homework is emotionally exhausting, and it takes discipline to deal productively with a recalcitrant child.  Its so 
263 much easier to let them watch "Dukes of Hazard" and go to bed then to fight with them.  As far as "dedicated teachers"
264 , why should a teacher be more or less dedicated than anyone else?  And dedication can be destroyed quickly, almost as
265 quickly as idealism.  As Paul said, we are in need of a massive restructuring of our educational system, and emotional 
266 ranting or political posturing isn't going to accomplish much.
267                   /Elberich\
268 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
269 ##############################
270 TO: all 
271 RE: "greatest good in education"
272 
273 I should have thought that those conversing throughh the keyboards of their computers would have a better mathematical sense
274 The "greatest good for the greatest number" is an attempt to optimize two variables simultaneousely.  Can't be done folks.
275 It's an interesting political slogan, but not even the beginning of a practical solution.
276 
277 Addison
278 #######################
279 ########################
280 Another point.
281 
282 let's not forget the reasons behind Jefferson's original proposals for free public schooling.  He believed that a democracy
283 without educated citizens would not enjoy freedom long.  And by educated, Jefferson did not mean just the practical arts
284 of engineering.  He included the humanities, and political philosophy (what today would be called the social sciences.)
285 perceived threats to the technostructure on which our society rests.  But that threat has been viewed narrowly, I think.
286 EMathematicians, physicists, and engineers may be vital for technical innovation, but remember that it rests with the body 
287 politic to do something intelligent with the wonders (and the horrors) thus released.  
288 
289 Addison
290 ######################
291 Paul, Elberich, Addison:   I have now seen some of your observations, some of 
292 your opinions, some of your (mis)interpretations...What are your PRAGMATIC
293 SUGGESTIONS?  What ACTIONS will you take in support of them?     Dave
294 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
295 Firstly, an interesting(?) observation: We are attempting to discuss solutions to the "problem" of "things being decided by a
296 loud minority". Right? We ARE a "loud minority"! (now that THAT is out of the way......)
297 I have a VERY disturbing observation to recount regarding the current public school teacher. My mother is a retired teacher.
298 (she is in her 70s!) She retired about 1950. I'm only 29 & my brother is 23. Recently I was helping her clean out some old
299 papers my brother had left behind when he moved. A number of them were "dittoed" assignments from various classes he had had
300 in high school. I was APALLED! On several ENGLISH assignments
301 the TEACHER had used spelling & grammar SO POOR that I would have been FLUNKED if I had done that poorly in MY high school
302 classes. AND THIS WAS A TEACHER?! I asked my mother about the assignment sheets. She had tried to get something done, but
303 neither the teacher OR THE SCHOOL cared! 
304 I have heard from other sources that MANY teacher (lower grades & high school) are FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE! How are we going
305 to break the cycle that has started? In some areas, we are about to start the THIRD generation of ILLITERATES. If you want to
306 find out how bad things are, pick a "good" public college or university. Find out how many freshman are taking "bonehead
307 english". The answer is liable to shock you. (remember I said good, ie PSU not PCC!)
308 Or for that matter check the spelling & grammar on the BBS's, there are a lot of INTELLIGENT people out there who can
309 just barely make themselves understood using WRITTEN ENGLISH.
310 We need to find a way to teach English & reading/studying skills. You can't learn much of anything else until you have those
311 skills. Unfortunately, competency tests are usually administered too late (the end of the term). I suggest that FIRST we set 
312 minimum standards for graduation from each grade. SECOND: ALL TEACHERS must be able to pass ALL the competency tests for the
313 NEXT HIGHER division (ie grade school must pass Jr. high, jr high must pass high school, etc).
314 I said all tests, because I can see no reason for allowing, say an Math teacher, to be ignorant of English or History.
315 Speaking of History (& "Social Studies" etc), why can't they standardize the curiculum. When I was school, we start studying
316 history ALL OVER AGAIN every Sept. Finally, in my junior year in high school, a teacher had us START with the second volume
317 of a 2-volume history book. That was the only time we ever got past the Civil War! I know that repetition is supposed to help
318 you learn, but really now! There are other examples of the same sort of thing in almost everything except Math & (some)
319 Science classes. They avoid this problem WITHOUT tying you to a "fixed" curiculum, by standardizing the course names
320 (Algebra, geometry, etc instead of just "math") & by requiring specific things to be learned in each course. Finally, they
321 note that some courses require others to be taken first. Compare this to most English classes (or worse "Social Studies")
322 I once managed to avoid taking an English class (the teacher & I didn't get along!) by taking a class in LOGIC! How, you ask?
323 Well they were both English credits....... 
324 In summary, we need to make sure the teachers are qualified (I don't care WHAT that diploma says- TEST THEM!), and we need
325 more structure to the ENTIRE educational system. (note: I said structure, not NECCESSARILY rigidity!)
326 ____________________________Leonard____________________________
327 
328 
329 ON A LIGHTER TOPIC , AND STILL WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF LEARNING . 
330 
331 DOES ANY ONE NKNOW OF A ROUTINE OR SOME SUCH COMPARABLE INSTRUCTION SET THAT WOULD ALLOW
332 AN 80-COLUMN SMARTERM II BOARD AND A MICROMODEMII CARD TO OPERATE IN HARMONY ?
333 
334 MY APPLE DOES NOT WORK WHEN BOTH ARE ACTIVE . IE "IN#2","PR#3"...... IT JUST BOMBS INTO MONITOR !
335 
336 I HAVE POKED,PEEKED AND CALLED..............IT EVERYTHING AND STILL THE " AHHH I HAVE IT " EXPERIENCE ELUDES ME . 
337 
338 IF ANYONE KNOWS OF WHAT INCANTATIONS ARE REQUIRED LET ME KNOW.........
339        
340  I DONT HAVE THAT MUCH MORE FORMICA LEFT ON THE TABLE TO GNAW.......
341 
342      PERIODONTICALY YOURS
343       ROBIN RAMSEY
344 DEAR ELBERITCH,
345      IN COUNTERPOINT, ONE MIGHT NOTE THAT MORE BOOKS ARE NOW BEING SOLD (AND
346 PRESUMABLY READ) THAN AT ANY OTHER TIME IN THE UNITED STATES, EVEN ON A 
347 PER-CAPITA BASIS. THE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY CONSIDERS THIS TO BE A GOLDEN AGE
348 OF PROFITS, ACCORDING TO BARRON'S MAGAZINE. PERHAPS MORE PEOPLE THAN YOU
349 THINK ARE UNWILLING TO ACCEPT TELEVISION AS THEIR ONLY INPUT. 
350                                           CHUCK
351 *************************************************************************
352 ************************************************************************
353 DEAR FOLKS IN THE EDUCATION DSICUSSION,
354     PERHAPS IF THE DISCUSSION IS TO BE MORE TO THE POINT, THESE TWO THINGS
355 WOULD HELP:
356 1) A LITTLE LESS PUT-THEM-DOWN-MAKE-MYSELF-LOOK-BIG SORT OF TALK.
357 2) MORE PRACTICAL SUGGESTIONS (IN PLACE OF THE CONDEMNATIONS) E.G. WHAT 
358    ABOUT INSISTING ON TEACHERS COLLEGES HAVING HIGHER THAN AVERAGE
359    STANDARDS FOR GRADUATION AND ADMISSION. FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER,
360    STUDENTS WHO WERE INSECURE IN THEIR ACADEMIC STANDING AND SCOLASTIC
361    TALENTS HAVE CHOSEN TEACHING COLLEGES TO ATTEND. TEACHERS DO HAVE TO
362    BE ACCREDITED BY SOME ORGANIZATION IN ALL STATES, AS FAR AS I KNOW. 
363    ONCE WE HAVE TIGHTENED UP THE STANDARDS FOR TEACHERS COLLEGES WE
364    COULD BE IN A GOOD SPOT TO TIGHTEN UP STANDARDS FOR TEACHING CERTIFICATES.
365    HOW ABOUT PERIODIC RE-TESTING OF TEACHERS TO KEEP THEIR CERTIFICATES.
366    HOW ABOUT A TOUGH TEST BEFORE GRADUATION FROM 8TH OR 9TH GRADE - I THINK
367    TESTING FOR MINIMUM STANDARDS DURING SENIOR YEAR IS A LITTLE TOO LATE, TO
368    SAY THE LEAST. 
369                                    CHUCK HUGHES
370 P.S. CAN COMPUTER AIDED INSTRUCTION SAVE THE WHOLE SYSTEM. OR HOW MUCH OF IT?
371 ***************************************************************************
372 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
373 
374 Fine, folks, here are some suggestions:
375    1) I have seen a great deal about what we need to do to make Teachers more competant.  Periodic evaluations,
376 testing, etc..  Some good ideas here, but we need more.  The best teacher in the world can do little with a child
377 that comes to class unprepared.  If the homework isn't done, Socrates himself would be unable to teach.  So we need
378 more parent involvement, and not just on the PTA level.  The parent should take an active interest in their child's
379 education, helping and learning along with their child, and answering questions.Many parents feel that schools are the 
380 place for education, and that they don't need to be involved.
381    2)  Proper nutrition.  Most of us in the computer generation probably think that this isn't a problem, but we
382 aren't exposed to it day after day.  Hunger is a real problem, and a hungry child doesn't learn.  In fact, a poorly
383 fed simply doesn't grow properly, and will never attain its potential.
384    3)  Directed education at the upper levels.  When I was in high school, most councilors laughed at the idea of
385 trade schools, and told the students that they were a dead end.  Unfortunately, this discouraged many who had real
386 talent.  I think (hope?) this is changing, but I'm not so sure.  Any comment from someone still in public school?
387      There are many teachers that simply don't belong in the profession, and I'm sure we all have horror stories about
388 incompetancy.  Teachers have become afraid to fail a student doing poorly, because they fear it will reflect on them.  
389 So testing of teachers can't be based on how many students they pass.  Perhaps it might be on how many students they
390 pass who later show they don't know the things they were supposed to learn.
391 Paul, are you out there?  Let's hear more from you.
392                     /Elberich\
393 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
394 ----------------------------------------------
395 To: Elberich, and all involved in this
396     discussion.
397 
398     Took me a while to get back to this
399 discussion, alot of ideas were thrown
400 out while I was gone ... anyway ...
401     I would like to comment on some selected topics that were brought up.
402 
403     As far as the people on this MS
404 being a "loud minority",
405 my opinion is that this couldn't be
406 farther from the truth ...
407 if anything this is a very pure form
408 of democracy because EVERYONE that
409 as a modem, and some form of computer
410 or terminal can make themselves heared.
411    A proplem with standardization of
412 curriculum, and books is that since
413 the majority of primary, and second-
414 ary schools are locally funded there
415 would be no practical way to make
416 all of them (even most of them)
417 standardized.
418 
419    "more books sold then ever before"
420 true in fact, but not in content, I'm
421 afraid. The book publishing business
422 is getting to a place were they are
423 less and less willing to publish
424 "new" books or unknown authors. The
425 cost involved in publication is getting
426 to a place were it is to explensive to
427 publish any but "mainstream" authors.
428 This is not quite as extreme in tech 
429 books, but look how expensive they are
430 anymore. Its nothing to drop $15 on
431 a paperback!
432 
433    Computer assisted education is
434 the wave of the future, if we can
435 get away from the rote methods used
436 in the software so far to some real
437 innovative programming methods.
438 
439    Tech-schools, I totally agree,
440 they are much under-rated and very
441 important for us now.
442 
443                      Paul
444 ---------------------------------------------------
445 
446 What a bunch of druel.....You people need some druel buckets....
447 Can't we talk on here about neat subjects like sex, violence,
448 war, movies, etc... (not that any of them are tied together)....
449 
450 
451 Signed,
452   DRUER
453 ----------------------------------------------------
454 To ALL:
455    Like I said earlier, the perfect
456 democracy ... need I say more?
457                         Paul
458 ----------------------------------------------------
459 
461 
462 *********************************************************
463 pairs on most popular types
464 the better cameras - Nikon, Pentax, Rollei, Canon,
465 lts, etc. If your camera has been sitting for a long
466 ime, perhaps it is time to get it tuned up, have the
467 ter and speeds checked, and be certain that everything
468 king properly.
469  I work in my home, and you can reach me most any-
470  during the dat at 238-xxxx. If I cannot answer right
471 way, my recorder will step in for me and take your 
472 ssage. Don't be afraid to describe your service require-
473 s, for I will be back to you ASAP.
474 *************YOURS TRUELY - STEVE OVERTON***************
493 
494 TOP
495 Before you concemn the teachers, please note that a competent teacher is not
496 going to stay in such a lousy, low-paying, dirty job, not when he/she can get
497 twice or better elsewhere. A good place to start is to pay them what they are
498 worth. Then you can require more from them. However, a student is only in 
499 class a small part of the day, and his parents must also get involved.
500 The claim that schooling is getting worse all the time just isn't true, that
501 claim is probably the oldest written philosopy, and after 4,000 years is still
502 phony. As to whether reading is needed, I fear it is approaching obsolescence.
503 How about arithmetic? Essential? Ain't no way: totally obsolete. It is pure
504 stupidity to waste several years of your life learning to do poorly what 
505 a five dollar calulator can do better. If what you need is available from TV,
506 why bother to read it out of a book? The number of books sold is not too 
507 relevant, either: I get most of mine second hand, and a fair number of the
508 rest from the library. As to CAI, it has great potential, but what I have 
509 seen so far I wouldn't wish on a dog. (He wouldn't get much less from it than
510 most students.) Trade schools are very much out of fashion, college is in,
511 and a degree in basket weaving is worth more than a real knowlege of how to
512 do something. Maybe a new name is required (Portland School of esoteric
513 electron bending?)
514 /////////////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
515 Dear Cistoy Mikey,
516   I understand you have been out of work for some time now...
517 Whatcha been doin' Mikey???  Eating your lifetime supply of LIFE
518 cereal I bet?????
519 
520    Well, it's time for bed...nighty night.....sleep tight,...and
521 don't let the PROGRAM bugs bite!!
522 
523 signed, SECRET ADMIRER
524 ---------
525 Arithmetic is NOT obsolete! What are you going to do when the
526 batteries run down at work? Or when the !$&'(W#" thing won't work? In any case,
527 I got my present job thru CETA and they had to put ALL trainees for my company
528 thru a basic math course (the employer doesn't think arithmetic is obselete!).
529 I saw people in this course who had trouble adding 27 & 59 to get the same 
530 answer twice running, yet ALL of them came out able to handle
531 Math (say thru 8th grade...) satisfactorily. It DOESN'T take years.
532 As for reading, I have worked with a "turkey" who boasts that he has NEVER read
533 a book. (claims to have not read the textbooks in school!)
534 On tests, standards, etc. I STILL think we need better & more uniform standards
535 for educational performance of both students AND teachers. Tests should be 
536 given AT LEAST every year (something like S.A.T., maybe?). If you don't pass the
537 test you don't pass on to the next grade either! At the same time I see no
538 why bright kids can't TRY the tests for a more advanced grade, if they make it
539 then they can "skip" a grade. (I know that most psychologists say that is "bad"
540 for the child- he won't "get along" with the other kids in the higher grade.
541 Well, it seems to have escaped their notice that the bright kids usually aren't
542 "getting along" in their CURRENT grade. I know, I've been there!)
543 In my previous msg, I didn't say that the TEXTBOOKS needed to be the same, I
544 said that the CURRICULUM needed to be standardized. ie upon completion of a 3rd 
545 grade math class, you would be expected to know certain things AS A CONDITION OF
546 PASSING, no matter WHERE you had gone to school. In high school & college math
547 and science classes this is ALMOST ALWAYS true. In other college
548 classes this is USUALLY true. In most other classes (below college) this is 
549 RARELY true. I know, I know "locally supported schools can't afford that". Well,
550 if they can't then they'd better quit pretending that they are "educating" their
551 kids.
552 I was criticized because of the expense of a "standard"
553 curriculum, yet no one criticized the person who wanted HIGHER PAY for the
554 teachers!! Hey, folks- it all comes out of the SAME funds. You can see how much
555 people REALLY care about education by seeing how they vote on school levies. You
556 know-- "put your money where your mouth is"...
557 I wonder what would happen if we were to seperate school funds into a fund for
558 paying teachers, buying textbooks & equipment, and maintaining/building school
559 buildings; AND a fund for sports, drama club, etc. (referred to hereafter as the
560 "S" fund & the "E" fund respectively). These funds would be raised by SEPERATE
561 levies. A basketball game would have the "E" fund paying the "S" fund rental
562 & maintainence on the gym, salaries for all school personnel involved (except
563 for volunteers) etc. This would eliminate the "standard" trick of "dropping 
564 sports" etc when the levy fails, and just MAYBE it would bring home how much
565 education REALLY COSTS. Of course, I don't expect this to be done, it takes away
566 too many of the excuses that everone wants to hide behind. We ARE a minority.
567 (Modems ain't cheap, and except for a few kids MOST of us had to EARN the money
568 at a job the requires SOME intelligence & education <as does using the modem!>)
569 By spreading out the cost of education, and farming out the job to teachers, 
570 we have removed the sense of responsibility from the parent. Unfortunately, I
571 think it is too late to go back. 
572 _________________________________Leonard________________________
573 IF JON STEELE EVER ACCESSES THIS SYSTEM PLEASE CONTACT Q-1
574 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
575 Leonard:  That's the kind of thing that CAN REVERSE a trend: new disclosures of
576 public operations, honest and committed to delivering full value.  If we must
577 talk of emodern 'free' basic education, I might suggest taking your modest
578 proposal a bit farther:
579 Each property owner is taxed his proportional share for the true expense
580 of maintaining the physical facilities and grounds of his school district.  One
581 can, I suppose, argue for the many benefits available to all in non-educational
582 activities held on school grounds and for schools 'general societal benefit'.
583 Each family unit is 'taxed' for each student attending public school:
584 the amount would proportionally cover all book, supplies, teaching and admini-
585 strative salary, and extra-curricular expenses allocable to that student.  This
586 tends to make the public system similar to a private system: students and 
587 parents face the real cost of education, demand value from their taxes, direct
588 the course of educational evolution, define acceptable teacher-student-admin
589 relations, and have no one to blame failings upon except themselves.  The 'tax'
590 would place a burden on younger families, but persons without children - both
591 singles and older people - will be freed of the never-ending cash drain.  I
592 suppose that laws requiring attendance, state and Federal funding, and all the
593 political juggling surrounding public schools now (even court decisions) could
594 be adjusted, as could some means to spread out a family's tuition costs, if
595 necessary.  My guess is, though, costs would drop substantially without marked
596 reduction in real learning, making public education a good value again.
597 ~~~~~~~~ What say you all to this proposal?       Dave  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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