textfiles/messages/BACKWATER/bw840201.txt

FILE ON
MARGIN IS 80 
STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
NUMBER OF LINES: 629 
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ************************ REMOVED 1 FEB 84 ******************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION
6                     PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. As the system is
10 privatly owned, I retain the right to remove any and all messages which
11 I may find offensive. Because of the limited size of the system, it will be
12 periodically purged of messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
13 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out of the
14 ENTER mode. The message is automatically stored. If after entering the
15 message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to replace
16 the line. To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
17 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
18 ************************************************************
19 
20 *********************************************************:
21 I WOULD LIKE TO RECOUNT AND INTERESTING THING THAT HAPPENED LAST 
22 NIGHT. AROUND MIDNIGHT WHEN I WAS GETTING READY FOR BED, I HEARD 
23 A GNAWING NOISE COMING FROM MY LIVING ROOM. WONDERING WHAT IT WAS 
24 I WENT IN TO SEE, BUT DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING SO I PASSED IT OFF AS 
25 JUST MY IMAGINATION. BUT THEN A LITTLE LATTER I HEARD IT AGAIN SO 
26 I CHECKED AGAIN. STILL NOTHING, BUT AS I STOOD THERE WONDERING 
27 WHAT IT WAS I HEARD IT AGAIN. IT WAS COMING FROM OUTSIDE MY 
28 WINDOW! OH NO! I THOUGHT, IS A MOUSE TRYING TO GET IN? I OPENED 
29 THE CURTAIN TO LOOK OUT AND SEE IF I COULD SEE ANYTHING, AND I 
30 HEARD A BIG SPLASH AS SOMETHING JUMPED INTO THE CREEK THAT FLOWS 
31 OUTSIDE MY LIVING ROOM WINDOW. ODD I THOUGHT, WHAT WOULD A DUCK 
32 BE DOING GNAWING AROUND MY WINDOW. NOT THINKING MUCH MORE ABOUT 
33 IT I WENT BACK ABOUT MY BUSINESS. THEN A LITTLE BIT LATTER THE 
34 GNAWING SOUND CAME BACK. THIS TIME I DECIDED TO SEE IF I COULD 
35 CATCH WHAT EVER WAS DOING IT IN THE ACT, SO I TURNED OFF THE 
36 LIGHTS AND SLOWLY OPENED THE CURTAIN. AND LOW AND BEHOLD, THERE 
37 IT WAS, A BEAVER! HE WAS CHEWING AWAY AT A SHRUB THAT GROWS IN 
38 FRONT OF THE WINDOW. I SHUED HIM AWAY, BUT HE CAME BACK SEVERAL 
39 TIMES. FINALY AFTER A WHILE HE DIDN'T COME BACK SO I THOUGHT I 
40 HAD GOTTEN RID OF HIM. BUT WHEN I WOKE THIS MORNING AND LOOKED 
41 OUT HALF OF THE SHRUB WAS GONE. APPARENTLY HE CAME BACK LATER AND 
42 GOT WHAT HE WAS AFTER. NOW THE QUESTION IS, WHAT WAS A BEAVER 
43 DOING IN THE MIDDLE OF A RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT IN PORTLAND?
44 VERY STRANGE!
45 **************** CISTOP MIKEY *******************************
46 
47 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
48      Night  closes  in on the forest to find Tarn  still  sitting 
49 beneath the tree.  He has light a small camp fire to ward off the 
50 darkness,  but it is far too small to be overly effective.  Worry 
51 fills  him  and once again he is troubled.  Where has Emer  gone?  
52 Always she seems to be off traveling somewhere.  Fear fills Tarns 
53 heart as he watches the flickering shadows.  Is one of them  Emer 
54 lurking  in  the  shadows  of  the  trees,  or  has  his  fevered 
55 imagination  conjured  up  spirits to fill this  dreadful  night?  
56 Leaving his place several times to see,  he finds nothing but the 
57 forboding undergrowth to satisfy his curiousity.   Fearing to try 
58 again to only return emptyhanded again, dejectedly Tarn collapses 
59 against  the  tree and pulls his cloak about him  once  again  to 
60 watch the dying flames of the fire.                              
61                             * Tarn *                              
62 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
63 WELL, HERE'S THE MORE I PROMISED.ONE OF EVOLUTIONS GREATESTS BOAST IS
64 THE CAMBRIAN LAYER. THIS DISCOVERY UNRAVELS THE EARTHS EVOLUTION, BE-
65 GINNING WITH VEGETATION, THEN BIRDS AND FISHES, LATER DOMESTIC AND
66 LAND ANIMALS, AND ULTIMATELY MAN. GENESIS 1:11 TELLS ABOUT THE FIRST
67 LAYER VEGETATION. ALSO THE FIRST LAYER OF CAMBRIAN. NEXT IN VERSE 20
68 THE CREATURES OF THE DEEP. AND VERSE 24 LAND ANIMALS. YOU CAN GUESS THE
69 REST. MAN EVENTUALLY CAME ALONG. MAY I ALSO POINT OUT THE DICTIONARY
70 MEANING OF EVOLUTION. A GRADUAL DEVELOPMENT OF WORKING OUT, TO OPEN
71 AND EXPAND. AS IN VARIETY.
72 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?DEBORAH!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
73 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
74   The point I am to make seems a little off the curent disscussion but ....
75 It seems to me that the ultimate purpose of Creation/Evolution theories
76 is to come up with a means to justify our existance. It would seem that 
77 our species suffers from an enourmous inferiority complex, and it is this
78 that perpetuates the diatribe that started most likely long before the 
79 bible (Christian) was in any recognizable form. What is the cause of this ?
80 Is it the immensity of our world and the cosmos ? or is it a genetic 
81 defect that has been passed down over the centuries. It will be interest-
82 ing to see if only our species has this urge (?) provided we ever do 
83 make contact with another race. Assuming whales are intelligent (by our
84 standards) (?) do they feel the same as we on the land ? A biblical ver-
85 sion of creation would classify them as beasts, therefor inferior to man
86 , therefor lacking intelligence (read a soul).. But assume (pretend?)
87 that they were created (biblically) (Christian of course) with a soul also.
88 (Evidence would suggest that whales are intelligent, so the argument is 
89 not entirely silly). Would they not too then have a similar account of 
90 the "bible" i.e. creation as us land dwellers ? As the word of God is
91 the universal truth they should . Interesting concept, at any rate. Hope
92 fully someday we may know the answer.\
93 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Mr. Tim %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
94 P.S. I apoligize for the rather disjointed prose, but ...........
95 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
96 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
97 deborah,alny i
99 whoops,gte strikes again,one miniut your typing and the next you have no 
100 phone survice for 22 minuts.again
101 
102 deborah,any idea who the person on disk b is who has so much faith in hgod
103 that he will not even sign his(her?) name? the statements reminded me of 
104 "1984" way too much,"whatever he says goes" ? i dont call this wrong,only
105 a little narrow minded,what of the countless other "bibles" around like the 
106 koran(jewish) bible.it is different then the king james/old testament/
107 whatever.and also has the same proof going for it.not to mention the
108 1.99999+e37 eastern religions.who is right? i think nobody is because if
109 there was a "god" then most religions would agree with each other
110 the iran/iraq thing(war) has been going on for so long only because of 
111 religion.there for i belive that there is no god.i think that all off the 
112 bibles/words of god/whatever were invented independantly by most races for 
113 the purpose of explaning things which they could not understand,like "why is
114 the sky blue" your avarage middle ages person would have said "god made it 
115 this way" in the late 19 century john w.s. rayleigh found out it was because
116 oxygen scatters blue light more effectivly then any other due to its atomic 
117 structure."why do we grow old and die?" is one that is now being answered by
118 science,it's not because we are going to metet our "maker" it due to natural
119 and man made toxens,hormone death clocks and improper nutrition.we can 
120 explain every disease that affects man,none are caused by an unknown factor
121 (god/devel).oh well,i've spouted enough for now.
122 
123 for the gentalbeing on drive b,minds are like parachutes-they oly funtion
124 when open.
125 
126 			The Man in Gray
127 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
128 p.s. for those of you who belleive in god as defined by the bible
129 read second kings 2:23,my interpritations on this is that elihja went to
130 bethal and was taunted by little kids.i quote"go up thou bald head"
131 at this point the good profit curses thease kids in the name of god.god then
132 sends 2 female bears to mangle/kill 42 little children for taunting 
133 old man,i find it hard to believe/worship/ a god that would do this.
134 if you had been a traveler in this time and helped thease defensless kids
135 then you would be evil,going against the work of god
136 
137 appatising thoughts eh?
138 				The Man in Gray
139 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
140 Dear M.i.G.: the Koran is the Islamic, not Judaic bible.
141 I am enjoying the current return to bellicose argumentation, but I hope we've
142 not seen the last of the multi-author stories. Arguments I can get at work,
143 but good tag-team creativity is hard to find.
144 For myself, I find the current discussion rather meaningless. I mean, it's 
145 already happened, we can't change it, or even directly observe it, so why 
146 bother? I propose a new discussion more pertinent to the here-and-now but 
147 no less esoteric: are we really here at all?
148 Or if that's too far out, how about this: Why can't educated adults learn 
149 to spell or punctuate properly? I mean it's not THAT hard; we see it done 
150 almost all the time in books and magazines.
151 Aside to Dr. Buck: I myself have observed that given the proper environment,
152 perfectly normal Homo Sapiens can become wild bores.
153 Illegitimi Non Carborundum,
154                   && The Mad Actor &&
155 
156 
157 ???;????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
158 Mad Actor,for you i apologiseda spellinc sucketh,i'll admit,but if i may "" 
159 "it's not the quality of typing that counts,but what is said"
160 
161 also,ever try typing on the kb of an rs mc-10?
162 in 1791 a rathr normal little funeral party was given for a 35 year old man,a 
163 violent lightning storm caused the pal bearers to run for cover,leaving the 
164 coffen later when they returned it was missing,never to be found.nobody knows
165 where the mortal remains of the greatist musical
166 geniuses that has ever lived,Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.
167 thought ya might like to know.
168 i was not around for the previous theology discussion,so it's new to me.you  
169 never mentioned your position on the subject either.
170 as for"are we here"@i eat/think/move atoms/procreate/recreate/copulate/and yI am
171 the writing you speek of in books results from the distribion of money  
172 if ya wish to pay me i'll type slow and  dysgustingly correct
173 
174 			The Man in Gray
175 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
176 pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
177 
178   The piper walked into the inn's common room with his pipes carried in the
179 crook of his left arm.  Standing at the bar for a moment he heard several of
180 the patrons raising their voices in loud dispute.
181 
182     "The gostak distimms the doshes!!!"
183     "It does not!!  The gostak is distimmed by the doshes!!"
184     "Enterprising and scientifically correct gostak watchers all agree!!
185      The gostak distimms the doshes!!!"
186     "If you have an open mind you are forced to parachute to the conclusion
187      that I am correct.  The gostak is distimmed by the doshes!!!"
188     
189     A voice of reason speaks out..
190    "wait.. shouldn't we look at whether the gostak and doshes exist? and...
191 
192     "How dare you question my beliefs?  All credible scientific authorities
193 agree that the gostak distimms the doshes!!!"
194     "Reputable scientists have said and evidence favors the fact that the 
195 gostak is distimmed by the doshes!!"
196     "Any scientist that says that is by definition not reputable!"
197     "I have proof!"
198     "I have evidence!"
199 
200 Turning on his heel, the piper walks out of the common room.  Those nearest
201 the door might have heard him whisper softly as he left
202   "...what fools these mortals be....."
203 pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
205 
212 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
213 MAN IN GREY: NO, I HAVE NO IDEA WHO THE PERSON IS ON DRIVE B THAT MADE
214 THAT STATEMENT. INTERESTING CONCEPT THO I WOULD SAY.
215 BY THE WAY THE REASON THAT MOST RELIGIONS DON'T AGREE, IN MY OPINION,
216 IS THAT MEN GET CARRIED AWAY INTO WANTING FOLLOWERS FOR THEMSELVES. SO
217 THEY TAKE THESE BOOKS THAT TRULY HAVE ALOT TO OFFER IN WISDOM, AND KNOW-
218 LEDGE, AND THEY EXPOUND ON THEM, AND ADD THEIR OWN LITTLE INTERPRETATIONS-
219 WHEREVER THEY FIT. THEN THEY FIND GROUPS OF PEOPLE THAT ARE LOOKING TO BE
220 CONVINCED IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, AND PUT THE SCREWS TO THEM. AND PRETTY 
221 SOON THEY'RE SUPPORTING HIM, AND IN TIME THE THING GROWS. OR THEY SEARCH
222 OUT PEOPLE THAT ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF SOME TYPE OF TRAMA, AND THEY GIVE 
223 THEM SOME HOPE FOR BETTER TIMES OR PERHAPS A PALITABLE REASON FOR THE
224 OCCURANCE.(not necessarily wrong but they should know when to lay off)
225 WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS THAT YOU CAN'T BLAME THE BOOK ANYMORE THAN
226 YOU CAN BLAME THE MANUFACTURER OF A KNIFE THAT FALLS INTO THE HANDS OF
227 A MURDERER. WHAT PEOPLE DO WITH THINGS HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH THE
228 INANIMATE OBJECT ITSELF.
229 ALL: HERE'S A LITTLE SOMETHING OF INTEREST. THEOF PRINCIPLE RELI-
230 PENTATUECH (BIBLE)   3,448 YEARS
231 HINDU "BOOKS OF KNOWLEDGE" (VEDA) 2,475 YEARS
232 CONFUCION "GREAT LEARNING" (TA-HSUEH) 2,455 YEARS
233 HEBREW SCRIPTURES COMPLETED (BIBLE) 2,418 YEARS
234 BUDDIHST SCRIPTURES, "THREE BASKETS" 2,018 YEARS
235 KORAN (HOLY BOOK OF ISLAM) 1,326 YEARS
236 SHINTO KOJIKI AND NIHONGI 1,256 YEARS
237 BOOK OF MORMAN 146 YEARS
238 ALL PRETTY RECENT FOR A BUNCH OF FOLKS SUPPOSEDLY AROUND FOR MILLIONS 
239 OF YEARS.
240 SOMETHING WENT GUNNYBAG FOR A MINUTE THERE. THE ABOVE IS THE AGE OF
241 THE PRICIPLE RELGIOUS WRITINGS. I MUST LEARN HOW TO CORRECT THESE
242 THINGS. ANYONE WANT TO GIVE ME SOME POINTERS?
243 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!DEBORAH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
246 ******************************************************************
247 TO MAD ACTOR: IF YOU SAW THE ORIGINAL CONDITION MOST OF THE MANUSCRIPTS
248 THAT ARE PROVIDED FOR THOSE MAGAZINES AND BOOKS WERE IN, YOU WOULD
249 PROBABLY SHUDDER. THE END RESULT YOU SEE IN THE BOOKS AND MAGAZINES
250 ARE THE WORK OF MANY PEOPLE CORRECTING STORRY FLOW (EDITTING) AND
251 THE GRAMMER AND PUNCUATION YOU MENTION (PROOF READING) .  IT IS FAR
252 FROM BEING AS EASY AS YOU INDICATE. THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE IS SO
253 RIDDLED WITH SPECIAL CASE CONSIDERATIONS THAT EVEN SUPPOSED
254 EXPERTS HAVE DIFFICULTLY DETERMINING WHAT IS PROPER. SURE THE
255 PRINTED WORD YOU SEE IS ALL NICE AND PROPER, BUT REMEMBER THAT
256 IT HAS GONE THRU SEVERAL DOZEN PEOPLE WHO MAKE A LIVING AT THAT
257 SORT OF THING TO GET IT THAT WAY.
258 ***************** SNOT NOSE *************************************
259 DR. BUCK: THIS ISN'T QUITE WHAT YOU ASKED FOR, BUT YOU SEEM TO NOT CARE
260 ABOUT SECOND HAND REFFERENCES TO CHANGE.  IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE
261 WONDER OF NATURE CHANGING THE FORM AND SHAPE OF LIFE, TAKE A LOOK AROUND
262 YOU. CONSIDER THE LOWLY CATIPILLAR SPENDING HIS LIFE EATING LEAVES AND
263 THINGS TO BUILD UP A ENERGY STORRAGE TO LAST HIM FOR A FEW WEEKS OF
264 INACTIVITY. WHEN READY HE BUILDS HIMSELF A COCOON TO HIDE AWAY IN.
265 THEN SOMETIME LATER A BEAUTIFUL BUTERFLY EMERGES. A CREATURE THAT
266 IS ONLY VERY VERY REMOTLY SIMULAR TO THE ORIGINAL CATIPILLAR IT WAS.
267 THE WORLD IS FULL OF TRANSFORMATIONS LIKE THIS IF YOU LOOK. SO IT
268 WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT IT AT LEAST WOULD INDICATE THE POTENTIAL OF
269 RADICAL CHANGE BEING ABLE TO TAKE PLACE IN ANY OTHER LIFE FORM.
270 **************** SNOT NOSE AGAIN ************************************
271 		Christians At War (words:John F Kendrick, tune: Onward, Christian Soldiers)
272 Onward, Christian Soldiers! Duty's way is plain:
273 Slay your Christian neighbors, or by them be slain.
274 Pulpiteers are spouting effervescent swill,
275 God above is calling you to rob and rape and kill;
276 All your acts are sanctified by the Lamb on high;
277 If you love the Holy Ghost, go murder, pray and die.
278 
279 Onward, Christian soldiers! Rip and tear and smite!
280 Let the.......
281 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
282 	At this point the bard, seeing that the song had penetrated to the arguing
283 patrons, took appropriate action. He ran for his life!
284 	Oh well, at last the argument stopped for a while.
285 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~BARD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
286 My apoligies to any who are offended by the song above. It has been around for 
287 a LONG time (first print appearance in 1913 IWW songbook!) I felt that it might
288 get across a point... namely just what this kind of argument can (and has!) led
289 to in the past.
290 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
291 To: Snot Nose & Man-in-Gray	Re: carcinogenic properties of softdrinks
292 	During the great cyclamate debate in the 60's it came out that SUGAR was
293 a carcinogen in far LOWER doses than either cyclamates OR saccharin! Why is it 
294 still on the m
arket? Well, it seems that the laws for "natural" ingredients 
295 are different from those for "artificial" ingredients. Cute, huh?
296 	(say, why don't we tailor some bacteria to produce cyclamates? Then they 
297 would be "natural"!)
298 
299 Dr. Buck:	I am curious as to how creationism can predict anything. If we allow 
300 God to take such an active role in the running of the universe- 
301 ANYTHING can happen. Thus, the only way to predict anything would be to find a 
302 way to predict God's actions. Somehow I find the thought ludicrous! (or perhaps
303 even blasphemous)
304 	As for "an example of a species changing into another" I suggest that you 
305 consider various disease bacteria. EVERY one of the various 'flus is a seperate
306 and distinct species. And there are records of which flu turned into which
307 other flu. If you want something "larger", please remember that that also means
308 more complex. Thus it should be obvious that it would take more genetic changes
309 (and thus MORE TIME) for noticeable differences to appear.
310 	Most of the people who start attacking evolution from that angle usually start
311 playing "word games". ie "but those aren't really different species". Also, 
312 there is a tendency to go "show me an intermediate form" & then when one is
313 found, to ask to see one intermediate between that and one of the previously 
314 mentioned forms! I'm not accussing YOU of this, just trying to clear the air. 
315 	Also, on the subject of fossils, please remember that it is an EXTREMELY
316 rare event when something gets fossilized. Thus, you have to try to work with
317 what can be found.
318 
319 
320 Mikey:	I see nothing unusual in the presence of a beaver in a residential area.
321 Remember, we have possums, coons, DEER, & (possibly) BEAR in this area! There 
322 is quite a bit of wildlife in the coast range and a lot of it ranges into the 
323 west hills. It is, after all, possible to go from Washington Park all the way 
324 to the coast without encountering any built up areas (if you don't count roads 
325 or railroad right of way). I had a friend who used to take such hikes
326 frequently.
327 __________________________________Leonard______________________________________
328 ............................................................................
329 Man in Gray,
330         On DB you said that "arguments are trading of ignorance, discussions
331 are trading of knowledge."  While I agree with your sentiment, your defini-
332 tion is not quite correct. An argument, in relation to a discussion, is an
333 collected series of facts and statements that lead logically to the estab-
334 lishment of a proposition.  Name-calling and such are violations of proper
335 argumentative tecnique, and if they are included in the course of the argu-
336 ment, tend to invalidate the position of the speaker.  A discussion is a
337 larger catagory which includes the argument, but also includes any examina-
338 tion of a subject, even by yourself.  In Latin, the word discussion has the
339 literal meaning of 'to shake apart', while argument comes from 'arguere',
340 which means 'to prove'.
341 .......................................................................Micon
342  
343 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
344      Oh, Tarn, you don't seem to have the sense to leave the forest on your
345 own! I know that I've done much traveling of late, but it is something that
346 is not to be avoided, it must be done. I'll walk you to the road, my good
347 friend, and remind you that there are times when one must do for one's self,
348 and not always rely upon the good graces of others. I have been away from
349 these parts much recently, and will probably continue to come and go for
350 awhile. Though I am welcome by you, I feel that there are others who resent
351 my presence at the Inn, and I am not one to wish to cause them distress.
352 Because of that, I will come only on occasion, and take as little space as
353 possible.
354      I wish to tell you that I had my first opportunity to use the most recent
355 trick you taught me, and it worked well! I will use it sparingly, though,
356 and only on my own property. I will insert it proudly in my ever increasing
357 bag of tricks!
358                                   - Emer -
359 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
360  
361 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
362 Micon,i was quoting a friend of mine who is a high-school debate champ.
363 perhapss the term "debate" should be used? oh well,i'll use argument.
364 to the giver of softdrink knowledge above,LIVING causes cancer.but i would 
365 be interested in the  source of the data.
366 Bard,where can i find a copy of that song? i like it.
367 this religion discussion/debate/argument is getting a little heavy for my 
368 store of knowledge.it was however very interesting while it lasted,thanks
369 deborah.
370 			The Man in Gray
371 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
372 ?!?!?!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
373 BYTHE WAY MAN IN GREY, ARE YOU IN SOME FASHION ASSOCIATED WITH THE DIAL AN
374 ATHIEST HOT LINE. YOUR P.S ABOVE WAS ON THE SAME SUBJECT AS THE TIDBIT ON
375 THE DIAL AN ATHIEST LINE THIS WEEK? JUST WONDERING. I'M  A VERY OPEN MIND-
376 ED INDIVIDUAL AND LOOK TO ALL SOURCES FOR INFO. EVEN ATHIESTS AND EASTERN
377 IDEAS, THOUGH I AM CONVINCED OTHERWISE. ONE THING I DO FIND IRRITATING
378 ABOUT SUCH REFERENCES, IS THAT THEY ARE ALWAYS TAKED OUT OF CONTEXT, WITH-
379 OUT CONSIDERING WHY THEY OCCURED. 
380 ALSO MY REASON FOR BRINGING UP THIS SUBJECT WAS PURELY ACADEMIC. NOT TO
381 TRY AND DISPROVE EVOLUTION. MORE IT WAS TO SHOW THAT WHEN THE BIBLE
382 TOUCHES ON SCIENCE IT IS ACURATE. THOUGH IT  IS NOT A BOOK ON SCIENCE.
383 LET'S FIND ANOTHER DEBATABLE TOPIC IN THE FUTURE.
384 DENISE, WHERE ARE YOU? I FEAR YOU ARE MISSING SOMETHING YOU WOULD ENJOY.
385 OR ARE YOU THERE LURKING.......AWAITING INVITATIONS TO RETURN?
386 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!DEBORAH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
387 P.S. I TOO SEE MUCH SIGNIFICANCE AND TRUTH IN THE POEM ON CHRISTIANS, AND
388 ALSO REALIZE THAT IT WAS WRITTEN ABOUT BIGGOT OR PSUEDO-CHRISTIANS, WHICH
389 ENTAILS ABOUT 99.98% OF THEM.
390 MAN IN GREY: WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAY THAT IF THERE IS A GOD, ALL RE-
391 LIGIONS WOULD AGREE? PLEASE EXPLAIN.
392 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
393 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
394 Well, everybody, 
395       I left the inn about 24 hours ago and since then a swamp of questions
396 has appeared. I will attempt to answer all of them, but if I leave any 
397 unanswered it was an over sight.
398       First off, adressing the topic of differences in religon, I would like
399 to say that Christianity is different from all other religons in one respect.
400 You see, if you like at any major religon, it is an attempt for a man to reach
401 God. However, if you look at the basis of Cristianity, it is Gods attempt to
402 come down and reach man.
403       Secondly, as for radical changes, you can say that all flus are similar.
404 I DO believe that some forms of life such as dogs have descended from a common
405 ancestor. However, there is no evidence for other totally different spieces.
406 In order to convince me, I would have to see the fossils of the transitory
407 forms.
408       As for the age of the Earth. Radioactive dating is the biggest bunch
409 of bull I have ever heard. It assumes that the decay started with none of the
410 daughter elements present. It also assumes that the rate of decay was constant.
411 Not to mention the assumtion that none of the parent or daughter elements were
412 added during decay. I will track down a list of facts supporting a young Earth.
413 and get them posted soon.
414       I think that close minded "I believe because God says..." was a joker.
415                             Dr. Buck
416 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
417 Order now:
418     Get your very own Dr. Buck's primal fart stool. It's easy to use, just
419 sit on it and let the primal fart go. When you push on the pedal, Whooosh!
420 The pedal makes a spark and off you go into the wild blue yondor. The perfect
421 gift for an initiate in the primal fart therepy.
422     How much would you pay for this stool? Well, I'll sell it to you for not
423 $600, not $300, but $9.99. 
424     But wait, that's not all you get. If you order now, you will also get your
425 own Dr. Buck approved crash helmet. Yes, this helmet will protect you from 
426 landing spills after your flying thrills. (frying thrills?)
427 _____________
428   To order Dr. Buck's primal fart stool, just call 1-503-230-1041. Please 
429 give waist size when ordering.
430 ================================================================================
431 DEBORAH,GREY,ETC,                                                               
432 TO THOSE WHO SEEM TO BELIVE THAT THE CURRENT THEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT IS
433 POINTLESS; REMEMBER, LOOKING AT OTHERS OPINIONS AND PRESENTING OUR OWN
434 CAUSES US TO LOOK AT OUR OWN VERY CRITICALLY (PROVIDED OFCOURSE THAT YOU 
435 KEEP AN OPEN MIND). TO ME THIS IS ONE OF THE MAIN TOOLS OF LEARNING.
436 IS IT YOURS?
437   
438                                  EVAN
439 
440 KEEP TALKING, SOME INTERSTING THINGS ARE BEING DISCUSSED, THAT RARLELY
441 ARE TALKED ABOUT REASONABLY. I MUST CONGRADULATE THE QUALITY OF THE
442 PARTICIPANTS OF THIS DISCUSSION. (EXCEPTING THE PERSON WHO FINISHED
443 THE LAST DISK!)
444 
445 ==========================================================================
446 
447 BUCK:
448     IT CAN BE AND HAS BEEN PROVED THAT IN A 'NEW' ROCK, ONE JUST COOLING
449 FROM A MOLTEN STATE SUCH AS MAGMA, OR A METAMORPHIC ROCK AFTER
450 THE METAMORPHIC PROCESSES HAVE CEASED THE RATIO OF RADIOACTIVE OR UNSTABLE
451 ELEMENTS TO DAUGHTER ELEMENTS IS ALWAYS THE SAME, SO IN RADIOMETRIC DATING
452 THIS IS ALWAYS KNOWN. AND RADIOMETRIC DATING CAN BE PROVEN REASONABLY 
453 RELIABLE, THE DATE ACHIEVED BY THIS METHOD, ESPECIALLY RECENT ONES (LESS
454 THAN A COUPLE OF THOUSAND YEARS) CAN BE COLLABORATED BY OTHER MEANS.
455 
456 
457                                     EVAN
458 
459 ============================================================================
460 
461      It was 9:45 in the Ack Emma, thirty-fifth day of Feistbacch in
462 the Year of the Leather Bound Book.  I'd been assigned traffic detail,
463 crowd control to be exact, in the xeno section of town.  Somebody up
464 there doesn't like me.  His name is Captain Malone.  My name's 
465 Greeshnakh.  I'm a cop.
466      I was working the day watch out of Sentient Central when the call
467 came in.  The phone announced that Malone was on the line, so I quickly
468 sucked in my three soft extensibles and closed all but by two top eyes
469 like I always do when I talk to Terrans.  That left only my two hard
470 appendages visible to the phone.  Those buggers will swear up and down that
471 they're not prejudiced, but just psxxt even a little bit of green when
472 one's around and see what happens.   Malone always calls me when there's
473 a job in Xeno section.  I steadied by stomaches and keyed the phone.
474      "Moanin' Greese." he smiled.  His eyes didn't track me right.  He
475 had his screen off.  "Some Wiz from the Cluster is giving a demo on pulling
476 moons out of orbit at the Ekks University today.  We've been requested
477 for crowd control.  Think you can handle it?
478      I though about it.  The Ekks weren't such bad guys, really.  At least
479 they had slime.  No telling what else would be in the neighborhood, though.
480 "Right on it, Captain." the phone automatically translated by spiracle
481 chatter into Terran.
482      Once I'd pulled up to the college campus, I had to be really
483 careful.  The little green pustules were everywhere, and I had to walk
484 on my three most delicate extensibles to keep from stepping on them.
485 The University itself was a wonder to behold.  The Ekks had taken a 
486 liking to the Terran alphabet, and were using it for their modern
487 architecture.  Huge star marble letters a full two meters tall (gigantic
488 by Ekks standards) spelled out EKK COLLEGE in the finely mosaic tiled
489 mall.
490 
491 ********************* chek in tomorrow........daver*********************
492 
493 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&"
494 DEBORAAH, ET AL:
495 Ok, one last comment from me, and then I'll leave this be.  If you can
496 find it, please check out ANALOG, November 1982.  This is one of the
497 most complete rebuttals of creationism I have read in quite a while.
498 Simply, it points out something not often cited; that creationism is
499 simply not CONSISTANT with all of the other know facts which must be
500 true for our universe to operate.  I will give some brief excerpts, with
501 credit going to Stephin Goldin, "Creationism Versus the Lightbulb".
502 
503 "...But let's step outside thier framework for a moment.
504 After all, ture science is not only internally consistent, but
505 it must be consistent with all the other sciences as well....
506 Electricity is such a basic part of modern life that we take it pretty
507 much for granted...The behavior of electricty is derived from
508 equations that are part of electro-magnetic theory.  We don't know
509 everything about electromagnetism either, as physicists will gladly
510 tell you, but the theory's equations correctly predict how electricity
511 works in real life...We can use the theory to predict how light should
512 react under certain circumstances...as anyone who has seen a rainbow 
513 can attest...W[through quantum mechanics] we have developed the principles
514 of spectroscopy, one of the major tools of astronomy...From the theory
515 of gravitation, we know how massive and how far away from us the sun is...
516 If the stars ARE other suns, then we know how bright they are because they
517 generate energy and light according to the same principles that apply
518 to our sun...we can therefore tell how far away they are.  It turns out
519 to be very far indeed....Wait a minute, back to the electromagnetic
520 theory, the one that predicts lightbulbs should work.  That self-same
521 theory predicts that light can travel only at finite speed.  Yet...
522 light must have taken billions of years to reach us.   At last the point
523 becomes clear.  If, as the creationists claim, the universe is only 
524 10,000 years old, how could light reach us from billions of lightyears
525 away?...
526 
527 I know I am inviting some pokes at the holes I have left for brevity,
528 so please read the article before rebuttal.  The points are that if I
529 were to base my scientific researches on creationist dogma, I could NOT
530 predict any facet of reality which can be viewed by independant 
531 observers.  It is not consistant with the vast body of knowledge and
532 observations currently in hand, no used to predict any new data.
533 
534 nuff said.
535 
536 GENERAL MACAIBO
537 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!
538 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
539 General:
540      Nothing personal, but that argument is very weak. If a divine being wanted
541 to create other stars, he would also create the light from Earth to the stars.
542 As a matter of fact, he could have just created the light and that the stars!
543 (HIGHLY unlikely, though)
544 Evan:
545      The same principle applies. A divine being would create rocks with 
546 daughter elements already in place. This would be much better then creating
547 the rocks with starting ratios.
548                             Dr. Buck
549 ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
550 "History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any
551 rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand
552 up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a 
553 religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable
554 pleasure from fiddling with it"-- R.A.Heinlein
555 Is it my imagination or is the spelling getting better out here?
556                   && The Mad Actor &&
557 P.S.-- I am a Christian, albeit a strange one. I have dandruff, too.-TMA
558 --------
559 To:All
560 Re:The Discussion
561 
562 It would seem to me that it would take a pretty rotten diety
563 to create fake information for us to discover, thusly leading us
564 in the wrong direction tobase our scientific theories on.
565 
566 ----Nuff Said...
567 ????????????????????????????????????????
568 somebody left the ll at 40 again,oh well
569 deborah,my rationall is this-if one god
570 existed then there would only be one 
571 correct bible/word of god/religion.
572 o.k.`so it's a little slim.
573 as for american athiests i am not a 
574 member but i might join soon,yes,i got
575 that little dity from todays tape. 
576 plagerism,i believe it's called,from now
577 on i'll use my ""'s like i should.
578 new topic,insanity`plea in the courts.
579 should we allow it or not? if ya don't 
580 want to discuss that then how about the
581 quality of todays education?
582 
583 Nomore then one hour ago i took my 
584 beloved terminal/modem/wires/power 
585 supply and other junk over to a friends 
586 house to show her bwms,the religion 
587 discussion made ler infuriated.she  
588 thought that we were all stupid people 
589 for trying to debate the word of god.
590 i don't know,maby it was the end of 
591 a 28 day cycle for her.am I speling maby
592 right,it does'nt look like it.
593 I have endevered to give to board
594 one trivial fact a day for your enjoymen
595 mozart was a start,for today...
596 
597 beethoven poured cold water over his 
598 head to"stimulate the brain"
599 
600 your teeth are composed of "modified 
601 papillae of the mucous membranes of your
602 mouth,heavily impregnated with lime salt
603 s"
604 daver,as a published sf author i can 
605 
606 give you a few hints that were given to 
607 me,city locations should make sence,like
608 "north". give`a better explination of 
609 the size of the cop.use names people can
610 pronounce,"nicolas john" is one i use.
611 on the plus side,you did'nt use any tech
612 talk that a reader might not understand.
613 you made your protagonist human in some
614 respects,people cant relate to aliens at
615 all.it looks like one i'll want to 
616 contribute to.
617 			The Man in Gray
618 ????????????????????????????????????????
619 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
620 
621 Deborah, you exite me.Your stimulating 
622 conversation keeps me up to the wee hour
623 please dont leave this system
624  
625 Your enthralled admirer,
626  
627 Aqualung
628  
629 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

>