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From: Diane Vera Msg Num: 73 of 80
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To: Balanone Date: 29 Feb 92 22:32:30
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Subj: "Nazi sympathies"
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Attr: Rec'd Read: N
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Conf: Magickal Chat Echo (93Net)
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*******************************************************************************
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Here, at last, is my long-procrastinated reply to your February 3
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string of messages to me in BASE OF SET titled "Non-Fascist Temple
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of Set". I've decided to try to move this discussion to OASIS,
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since I gather that most BASE OF SET readers are long since tired of
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it, and so that Tim can comment without being perceived as "hounding
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Setians". OASIS, in case you're unfamiliar with it, is an occult
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"anything goes" echo, distributed mainly to OTO boards and thus
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inhabited mainly by Thelemites, with a large minority of Satanists.
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.
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Thanks for spelling out Aquino's disagreements with all the main
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tenets of Nazi ideology. I hope you'll suggest to Aquino that he
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give a similarly straightforward reply next time someone tries to
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question him in depth about the common perception of "Nazi
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sympathies" on his part. (Had he done so in MAGICKNET two years
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ago, I don't think Tim would have written "The Nazi Trapezoid",
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although Tim might still have had a few questions. Right, Tim?)
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.
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B > In Dr. Aquino's 11/14/90 response, as quoted in part
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2 of your 1/25 post to me, Dr. Aquino says, "I have always
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deplored its [Naziism's] premises, policies, and activities
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which resulted in savagery and misery to a great many
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people." He deplores its premises (ideology) and its
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policies (practices) which result in savagery and misery.
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.
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But, unlike your message to me, Aquino's "response" to "The Nazi
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Trapezoid" doesn't specify *what* these "premises" are which he
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deplores. Aquino does, after all, agree with (or at least encourage
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open-mindedness toward) *some* ideas that are associated with
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Nazism. For example, on March 15, 1990 in MAGICKNET, Aquino wrote
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to Mel. White in a message titled "Taboo Genetics":
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.
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MA > Dear Ms. White,
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Yes, it's interesting when one comes across a living example
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of the Nazi genetic breeding experiments - bearing in mind
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that this program barely got off the ground before the outcome
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of WW2 brought an end to it.
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Humanity breeds vegetables and virtually every other
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animal except itself to improve strength, substance,
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appearance, etc. Prior to WW2 the entire subject of human
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genetic engineering by selective breeding was not a taboo as
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it is today. It was not just Nazi Germany which was
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interested in it. But the Nazis' experiments in it transformed
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it into a postwar taboo, equated today with racism, genocide,
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etc. Perhaps in another century this taboo will have
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exhausted itself, but for now even a hint of interest in it is
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certain to provoke howls of indignation from the masses.
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I have a friend who was [un]fortunate enough to be born
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in Nazi Germany as a result of a marriage adhering to the
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country's multi-generational racial laws. Consequently she has
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a birth certificate, complete with gold eagle & swastika,
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which is positively dazzling - certainly nothing like the
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rubber-stamp certificates issued today. She has been heard to
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remark rather bitterly that all the golden certificate got her
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was increased persecution in the years following the war. Such
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is the mandala of history.
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.
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Aquino suggests here that human "genetic engineering by selective
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breeding" doesn't necessarily have to mean racism. And indeed it
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doesn't, at least in theory. But I don't see how, in practice,
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human eugenics could ever be disentangled from racism and other
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forms of oppression. I'm wondering how, "in another century",
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Aquino thinks it might be implemented.
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.
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I don't necessarily expect you to provide an answer to this
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question, since you're not Aquino. I'm just trying to give you an
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idea of why, in the absense of any clear statement by Aquino stating
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what he does *not* agree with about Nazi ideology, Tim got the
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very strong impression that Aquino is a "Nazi sympathizer". Simply
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disapproving of Nazi atrocities (as Aquino has done) does not
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constitute a statement of fundamental disagreement with Nazism. As
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Tim Maroney wrote in MAGICKNET on February 26, 1990, in a message to
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Brad Hicks, "Re: Oh, Yeh?":
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.
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TM > One more thing -- it may not be clear why I regard
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Aquino's latest statement about Nazism to still be unclear on
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the subject. To transplant the argument, I personally am
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aware that socialists have done any number of mean, evil, and
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nasty things, and I condemn those -- this is an exact parallel
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to Aquino's stated feelings about Nazism. However, you would
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be incorrect to draw from that the conclusion that I consider
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socialism an abomination or am not sympathetic to it. In
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fact, the opposite is true; I consider the socialist
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atrocities to be aberrations and the fundamental theory to
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remain sound. Anyone dealing honestly with any political
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movement that has attained any degree of public success must
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admit that many manifestations of the movement have been
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undesirable. But this in itself does not mean that one does
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not remain in essential sympathy with the goals of the
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movement.
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.
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If only Aquino had posted something like your message, which does
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constitute a clear statement of disagreement with Nazi ideology, not
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just Nazi atrocities (though I see a couple minor problems with your
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statement which I'll discuss later). For the benefit of other
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readers, I will quote in full the relevant parts of your message:
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.
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B > My dictionary defines Naziism as, "the body of
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political and economic doctrines held and put into effect
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by the National Socialist German Workers' party in the
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Third German Reich including the totalitarian principle of
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government, state control of all industry, predominance of
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groups assumed to be racially superior, and supremacy of
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the fuhrer."
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.
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B > I'm not Dr. Aquino, but I've been reading his works
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for well over a decade now, and I've heard some of his
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discussions on these and related topics, and I believe I
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can accurately state the following:
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1) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of
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the totalitarian principle of government. While he
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recognizes that there are problems in every form of
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democracy used to date, democracy in general results in
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better governments and better organizations than does
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totalitarianism.
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In evidence of this, I point to the organization of
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the Temple of Set (his design), where a) there are multiple
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checks and balances designed to ensure that no single
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person wields totalitarian power, b) all members of the
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Priesthood have an equal vote concerning the bylaws of the
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organization, and c) a democratic vote of the Council of
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Nine is powerful enough to remove any officer from power
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and to expel any member from the organization, including
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the High Priest.
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2) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of
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the state control of all industry. While Dr. Aquino is
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certainly no captain of industry (he prefers to earn his
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livelihood within academia), I've never heard him express
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any dissatisfaction with capitalism or the free market
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system, other than the generally recognized fact that
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people can be financially hurt in a non-socialist state.
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Instead of arguing for a socialist state, which
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would be the case if he supported this Nazi ideology, Dr.
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Aquino instead argues that Black Magicians should be able
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to successfully make their own way in a capitalist society.
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3) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of
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the predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior.
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I have always seen Dr. Aquino treat people of various races
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as comparative equals, judging people not by race, but by
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personal qualities under the control of the individual
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(their education, their application of their native
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intelligence, their sociability, their honor, their
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dedication, etc).
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4) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of
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the supremacy of the fuhrer. There were some things that
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Hitler said or wrote which are worth studying, but there
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were also many, many things said, written, and done by
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Hitler which are reprehensible. Setians are fond of saying
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they worship none but their own higher Selves. Dr. Aquino
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lives that ideal.
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Those are the four ideologies of Naziism listed in
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my dictionary. If there are other ideologies you wonder
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about, you'll need to ask about them specifically.
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Since Naziism and fascism are so closely related,
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and since Dr. Aquino and the Temple of Set have been
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accused of being fascist, let me explore that topic also.
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.
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B > Fascism -- 1: a political philosophy, movement, or
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regime that exalts nation and race above the individual,
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and that stands for a centralized autocratic government
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headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social
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regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. 2:
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a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic
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or dictatorial control.
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1) Dr. Aquino believes in and exalts the individual
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over the nation and race. This is central to the concept
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of Xeper and the Left Hand Path. This concept is even more
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important than the Temple of Set -- as High Priest he as
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seen many individual initiates pleasantly leave the Temple
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of Set for reasons of their own, and has later welcomed
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back several of those with open arms. Such is not the
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behavior of a fascist.
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2) Dr. Aquino does not believe in a centralized
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autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader. He
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believes in the American form of democracy (while admitting
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that it has its problems), and he has designed the Temple's
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organization and bylaws to prevent any dictatorial leader
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from gaining absolute control.
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3) Dr. Aquino does not believe in social
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regimentation nor forcible suppression of opposition.
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Instead he welcomes diversity within the Temple of Set, and
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has not only tolerated but welcomed intelligent forms of
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opposition within the Temple of Set.
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.
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So far, my one objection is to the following statement:
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.
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B > Instead of arguing for a socialist state, which would
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be the case if he supported this Nazi ideology, Dr. Aquino
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instead argues that Black Magicians should be able to
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successfully make their own way in a capitalist society.
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.
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This is one argument I would hesitate to present to a politically-
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sophisticated audience. At the very least, I certainly wouldn't
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emphasize it.
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.
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Technically, "Nazism" was indeed an abbreviation for the phrase
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"National Socialism". However, *today's American* neo-fascists,
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racists, and "Nazi sympathizers" will usually present themselves as
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ardent champions of capitalism. How they reconcile this
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contradiction, I don't know; but it's nonetheless a fact that they
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will usually oppose welfare, rather than arguing (as perhaps a
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classical Nazi might) that we should keep welfare but reserve it for
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people of pure Nordic descent. Today's neo-Nazi types usually
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assume (like the LaVey crowd) that only "inferior" folks would ever
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need welfare. Also, they will sometimes claim to be champions of
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small business against the corporate establishment ("Main Street vs.
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Wall Street").
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.
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It has also been questioned how genuinely socialist "National
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Socialism" really was. I've read several places that Nazism was
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promoted by German industrialists as an alternative to "real"
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socialism. I don't know enough about Nazism's actual ecomonic
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policies to make a judgment about this. In any case, Nazism was
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fiercely anti-Communist, which it has in common with today's
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American neo-Nazi's.
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.
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I'm *not* trying to suggest that being pro-capitalist or fiercely
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anti-Communist makes one a "Nazi sympathizer". I'm simply pointing
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out that, in today's political context, being pro-capitalist does
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not constitute evidence *against* a perception that one is a "Nazi
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sympathizer", semantically correct though that argument may be.
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.
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Later in your message, in your comments on Tim Maroney's article
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"The Nazi Trapezoid", you made another argument I wouldn't present
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to a politically-aware audience:
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.
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B > The Order of the Trapezoid is *not* "dedicated" to
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Nazi occultism. [...] If the Order of the Trapezoid is
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"dedicated" to anything, that dedication is found in the
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statement,
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"The O.Tr. is an Order of knighthood characterized
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by strict personal honor and faithfulness to the quest for
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the Grail. The Order is a *knighthood* in that its members
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are pledged to the traditional chivalric virtues as
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appropriate to each situation encountered. By *honor* is
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meant a sense of justice, ethics, and responsibility prior
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to personal comfort, convenience, or advantage. This honor
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is known by one's *faithfulness* to the Quest of the Grail,
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which is the self, soul, or psyche made perfect through
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conscious refinement and exercise of the Will."
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Let me repeat that sentence which expands on the
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Order's concept of honor: "By *honor* is meant a sense of
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justice, ethics, and responsibility prior to personal
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comfort, convenience, or advantage."
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In my opinion that statement directly and absolutely
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disproves Tim's expectation of fascism.
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.
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That statement does "directly and absolutely disprove" an
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expectation of LaVey-style nihilism; but, as Tim pointed out to me
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in BASE OF SET, fascist ideology is *not* incompatible with an
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emphasis on the idea of honor. (The concepts of elitism and honor
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don't prove that ToS and/or the Order of the Trapezoid *are*
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fascist, but they certainly don't disprove it.) So, I definitely
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wouldn't use this particular argument unless you're familiar with
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fascist concepts of "honor" and are prepared to spell out how the
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Order of the Trapezoid's concept differs from it.
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.
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Backtracking a bit, just after your enumeration of the central
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doctrines of Nazism and fascism which Aquino disagrees with, you
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made a series of arguments which I wouldn't use because they sound
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too much like evasions (which seems to be a common ToS bad habit,
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perhaps growing out of most Setians' understandable desire to keep
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a low profile).
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.
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B > You quote Dr. Aquino's 11/14/90 statement, "To the
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extent the Order is interested in Nazi Germany, it is
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essentially with regard to the very extensive research into
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occultism conducted by the Ahnenerbe and other groups &
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individuals during that period." You then go on to claim,
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"As the Order of the Trapezoid statement makes clear, there
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is much more to its interest in Nazism than this. Aquino
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does not address any of the specific issues raised in Tim's
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article, which I will highlight in a later message to you."
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[...]
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Reading through the Order of the Trapezoid
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statement, I find that the introduction concentrates on
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German Romanticism, and the Order's statement doesn't even
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mention the Third Reich until the eighth paragraph. The
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Third Reich and the Nazi influence is then discussed and
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dismissed in six paragraphs. The Third Reich and Nazi
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influence occupies less than one page in the five-page
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document.
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Reading those six paragraphs, I find myself unable
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to support your claim that "there is much more to its
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interest in Nazism than this."
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I do find the 1939 quote from Herman Rauschning,
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which said, "This irrational element in National Socialism
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is the actual source of its strength. It is the reliance on
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it that accounts for its 'sleepwalker's immunity' in the
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face of one practical problem after another. It explains
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why it was possible for National Socialism to attain power
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almost without the slightest tangible idea of what it was
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going to do. ..."
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Yes, the study of the social dynamics which are
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mentioned are of interest, but I fail to see the connection
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between those social dynamics and Naziism ... those social
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dynamics apply to all fanatical movements which quickly
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rise to power (or at least struggle for it). Do you
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disagree?
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If you can point out to me where you find this
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interest in Naziism rather than German Romanticism, perhaps
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I'll be better able to answer your question. Until then, I
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just don't see the source of your concern.
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.
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The Order of the Trapezoid statement does deal with how the German
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Romantic concepts of "dynamism and life-worship" got used/abused by
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the Nazis. The statement says, "The uncanny attraction of the Third
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Reich - Nazi Germany - lies in the fact that it endorsed and
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practiced both dynamism and life-worship without restraint and to a
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world-shaking degree of success."
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.
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Taken together, the Order of the Trapezoid statement and Aquino's
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"response" to Tim show a concern with at least four different
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elements pertaining to Nazi Germany: (1) The Ahnenerbe S.S.'s
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occult research, (2) the German Romantic philosophical background of
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"dynamism and life-worship", (3) the social dynamics of a fanatical
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movement, and (4) official Nazi artwork, as in the Fenris wolf on
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the masthead of the Order of the Trapezoid's newsletter: not just
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any old Fenris wolf, but the specific artistic rendition of Fenris
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"from the cover of the August 1941 issue of _Germanien_, official
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journal of the _Ahnenerbe_, the elite section of the SS concerned
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with the theory and practice of the Black Arts". All of this,
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together with the above-quoted statement referring to "The uncanny
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attraction of the Third Reich", does indicate a *fascination* with
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Nazi Germany, though not necessarily an *agreement* with Nazism
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itself. The fact that some of the above elements are not unique to
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Nazism does not invalidate the thesis that Aquino's writings show a
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*fascination* for Nazi Germany, a thesis whose truth is even more
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evident when I review the MAGICKNET archives.
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.
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Of course, as I've indicated, having a fascination for Nazi Germany
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isn't the same thing as agreeing with Nazism. You made a very good
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case for the thesis that Aquino is not a "Nazi sympathizer". Please
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don't overstate your case by trying to claim or imply that he
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doesn't have a particular fascination for Nazi Germany. It probably
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isn't an *all-consuming* fascination, and it's probably only one
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of a number of Aquino's fascinations; but the fascination is clearly
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there.
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.
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Regarding "the specific issues raised in Tim's article, which I will
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highlight in a later message to you", I discussed most of them in my
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5-part February 24 message to All in BASE OF SET, "Trapezoi.TXT".
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-!- Maximus 2.00
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! Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666)
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