textfiles/occult/OTO/nz_dvr1.txt

*******************************************************************************
  From: Diane Vera                                    Msg Num:    73 of    80
    To: Balanone                                     Date: 29 Feb 92  22:32:30
  Subj: "Nazi sympathies"          
  Attr: Rec'd                                                         Read: N
  Conf: Magickal Chat Echo (93Net)
*******************************************************************************

Here, at last, is my long-procrastinated reply to your February 3
string of messages to me in BASE OF SET titled "Non-Fascist Temple
of Set".  I've decided to try to move this discussion to OASIS,
since I gather that most BASE OF SET readers are long since tired of
it, and so that Tim can comment without being perceived as "hounding
Setians".  OASIS, in case you're unfamiliar with it, is an occult
"anything goes" echo, distributed mainly to OTO boards and thus
inhabited mainly by Thelemites, with a large minority of Satanists.
.
Thanks for spelling out Aquino's disagreements with all the main
tenets of Nazi ideology.  I hope you'll suggest to Aquino that he
give a similarly straightforward reply next time someone tries to
question him in depth about the common perception of "Nazi
sympathies" on his part.  (Had he done so in MAGICKNET two years
ago, I don't think Tim would have written "The Nazi Trapezoid",
although Tim might still have had a few questions.  Right, Tim?)
.
       B >  In Dr. Aquino's 11/14/90 response, as quoted in part
       2 of your 1/25 post to me, Dr. Aquino says, "I have always
       deplored its [Naziism's] premises, policies, and activities
       which resulted in savagery and misery to a great many
       people." He deplores its premises (ideology) and its
       policies (practices) which result in savagery and misery.
.
But, unlike your message to me, Aquino's "response" to "The Nazi
Trapezoid" doesn't specify  *what*  these "premises" are which he
deplores.  Aquino does, after all, agree with (or at least encourage
open-mindedness toward)  *some*  ideas that are associated with
Nazism.  For example, on March 15, 1990 in MAGICKNET, Aquino wrote
to Mel. White in a message titled "Taboo Genetics":
.
     MA >  Dear Ms. White,
     Yes, it's interesting when one comes across a living example
     of the Nazi genetic breeding experiments - bearing in mind
     that this program barely got off the ground before the outcome
     of WW2 brought an end to it.
          Humanity breeds vegetables and virtually every other
     animal except itself to improve strength, substance,
     appearance, etc.  Prior to WW2 the entire subject of human
     genetic engineering by selective breeding was not a taboo as
     it is today.  It was not just Nazi Germany which was
     interested in it. But the Nazis' experiments in it transformed
     it into a postwar taboo, equated today with racism, genocide,
     etc.  Perhaps in another century this taboo will have
     exhausted itself, but for now even a hint of interest in it is
     certain to provoke howls of indignation from the masses.
          I have a friend who was [un]fortunate enough to be born
     in Nazi Germany as a result of a marriage adhering to the
     country's multi-generational racial laws. Consequently she has
     a birth certificate, complete with gold eagle & swastika,
     which is positively dazzling - certainly nothing like the
     rubber-stamp certificates issued today. She has been heard to
     remark rather bitterly that all the golden certificate got her
     was increased persecution in the years following the war. Such
     is the mandala of history.
.
Aquino suggests here that human "genetic engineering by selective
breeding" doesn't necessarily have to mean racism.  And indeed it
doesn't, at least in theory.  But I don't see how, in practice,
human eugenics could ever be disentangled from racism and other
forms of oppression.  I'm wondering how, "in another century",
Aquino thinks it might be implemented.
.
I don't necessarily expect you to provide an answer to this
question, since you're not Aquino.  I'm just trying to give you an
idea of why, in the absense of any clear statement by Aquino stating
what he does  *not*  agree with about Nazi ideology, Tim got the
very strong impression that Aquino is a "Nazi sympathizer".  Simply
disapproving of Nazi atrocities (as Aquino has done) does not
constitute a statement of fundamental disagreement with Nazism.  As
Tim Maroney wrote in MAGICKNET on February 26, 1990, in a message to
Brad Hicks, "Re: Oh, Yeh?":
.
     TM >  One more thing -- it may not be clear why I regard
     Aquino's latest statement about Nazism to still be unclear on
     the subject.  To transplant the argument, I personally am
     aware that socialists have done any number of mean, evil, and
     nasty things, and I condemn those -- this is an exact parallel
     to Aquino's stated feelings about Nazism.  However, you would
     be incorrect to draw from that the conclusion that I consider
     socialism an abomination or am not sympathetic to it.  In
     fact, the opposite is true; I consider the socialist
     atrocities to be aberrations and the fundamental theory to
     remain sound.  Anyone dealing honestly with any political
     movement that has attained any degree of public success must
     admit that many manifestations of the movement have been
     undesirable.  But this in itself does not mean that one does
     not remain in essential sympathy with the goals of the
     movement.
.
If only Aquino had posted something like your message, which does
constitute a clear statement of disagreement with Nazi ideology, not
just Nazi atrocities (though I see a couple minor problems with your
statement which I'll discuss later).  For the benefit of other
readers, I will quote in full the relevant parts of your message:
.
       B >  My dictionary defines Naziism as, "the body of
       political and economic doctrines held and put into effect
       by the National Socialist German Workers' party in the
       Third German Reich including the totalitarian principle of
       government, state control of all industry, predominance of
       groups assumed to be racially superior, and supremacy of
       the fuhrer."
.
       B >  I'm not Dr. Aquino, but I've been reading his works
       for well over a decade now, and I've heard some of his
       discussions on these and related topics, and I believe I
       can accurately state the following:
             1) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of
       the totalitarian principle of government. While he
       recognizes that there are problems in every form of
       democracy used to date, democracy in general results in
       better governments and better organizations than does
       totalitarianism.
             In evidence of this, I point to the organization of
       the Temple of Set (his design), where a) there are multiple
       checks and balances designed to ensure that no single
       person wields totalitarian power, b) all members of the
       Priesthood have an equal vote concerning the bylaws of the
       organization, and c) a democratic vote of the Council of
       Nine is powerful enough to remove any officer from power
       and to expel any member from the organization, including
       the High Priest.
             2) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of
       the state control of all industry.  While Dr. Aquino is
       certainly no captain of industry (he prefers to earn his
       livelihood within academia), I've never heard him express
       any dissatisfaction with capitalism or the free market
       system, other than the generally recognized fact that
       people can be financially hurt in a non-socialist state.
             Instead of arguing for a socialist state, which
       would be the case if he supported this Nazi ideology, Dr.
       Aquino instead argues that Black Magicians should be able
       to successfully make their own way in a capitalist society.
             3) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of
       the predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior.
       I have always seen Dr. Aquino treat people of various races
       as comparative equals, judging people not by race, but by
       personal qualities under the control of the individual
       (their education, their application of their native
       intelligence, their sociability, their honor, their
       dedication, etc).
             4) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of
       the supremacy of the fuhrer. There were some things that
       Hitler said or wrote which are worth studying, but there
       were also many, many things said, written, and done by
       Hitler which are reprehensible. Setians are fond of saying
       they worship none but their own higher Selves. Dr. Aquino
       lives that ideal.
             Those are the four ideologies of Naziism listed in
       my dictionary. If there are other ideologies you wonder
       about, you'll need to ask about them specifically.
             Since Naziism and fascism are so closely related,
       and since Dr. Aquino and the Temple of Set have been
       accused of being fascist, let me explore that topic also.
.
       B >  Fascism -- 1: a political philosophy, movement, or
       regime that exalts nation and race above the individual,
       and that stands for a centralized autocratic government
       headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social
       regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.  2:
       a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic
       or dictatorial control.
             1) Dr. Aquino believes in and exalts the individual
       over the nation and race.  This is central to the concept
       of Xeper and the Left Hand Path.  This concept is even more
       important than the Temple of Set -- as High Priest he as
       seen many individual initiates pleasantly leave the Temple
       of Set for reasons of their own, and has later welcomed
       back several of those with open arms.  Such is not the
       behavior of a fascist.
             2) Dr. Aquino does not believe in a centralized
       autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader.  He
       believes in the American form of democracy (while admitting
       that it has its problems), and he has designed the Temple's
       organization and bylaws to prevent any dictatorial leader
       from gaining absolute control.
             3) Dr. Aquino does not believe in social
       regimentation nor forcible suppression of opposition.
       Instead he welcomes diversity within the Temple of Set, and
       has not only tolerated but welcomed intelligent forms of
       opposition within the Temple of Set.
.
So far, my one objection is to the following statement:
.
       B >  Instead of arguing for a socialist state, which would
       be the case if he supported this Nazi ideology, Dr. Aquino
       instead argues that Black Magicians should be able to
       successfully make their own way in a capitalist society.
.
This is one argument I would hesitate to present to a politically-
sophisticated audience.  At the very least, I certainly wouldn't
emphasize it.
.
Technically, "Nazism" was indeed an abbreviation for the phrase
"National Socialism".   However, *today's American*  neo-fascists,
racists, and "Nazi sympathizers" will usually present themselves as
ardent champions of capitalism.  How they reconcile this
contradiction, I don't know; but it's nonetheless a fact that they
will usually oppose welfare, rather than arguing (as perhaps a
classical Nazi might) that we should keep welfare but reserve it for
people of pure Nordic descent.  Today's neo-Nazi types usually
assume (like the LaVey crowd) that only "inferior" folks would ever
need welfare.  Also, they will sometimes claim to be champions of
small business against the corporate establishment ("Main Street vs.
Wall Street").
.
It has also been questioned how genuinely socialist "National
Socialism" really was.  I've read several places that Nazism was
promoted by German industrialists as an alternative to "real"
socialism.  I don't know enough about Nazism's actual ecomonic
policies to make a judgment about this.  In any case, Nazism was
fiercely anti-Communist, which it has in common with today's
American neo-Nazi's.
.
I'm  *not*  trying to suggest that being pro-capitalist or fiercely
anti-Communist makes one a "Nazi sympathizer".  I'm simply pointing
out that, in today's political context, being pro-capitalist does
not constitute evidence  *against*  a perception that one is a "Nazi
sympathizer", semantically correct though that argument may be.
.
Later in your message, in your comments on Tim Maroney's article
"The Nazi Trapezoid", you made another argument I wouldn't present
to a politically-aware audience:
.
       B >  The Order of the Trapezoid is *not* "dedicated" to
       Nazi occultism.  [...]   If the Order of the Trapezoid is
       "dedicated" to anything, that dedication is found in the
       statement,
             "The O.Tr. is an Order of knighthood characterized
       by strict personal honor and faithfulness to the quest for
       the Grail. The Order is a *knighthood* in that its members
       are pledged to the traditional chivalric virtues as
       appropriate to each situation encountered. By *honor* is
       meant a sense of justice, ethics, and responsibility prior
       to personal comfort, convenience, or advantage. This honor
       is known by one's *faithfulness* to the Quest of the Grail,
       which is the self, soul, or psyche made perfect through
       conscious refinement and exercise of the Will."
             Let me repeat that sentence which expands on the
       Order's concept of honor: "By *honor* is meant a sense of
       justice, ethics, and responsibility prior to personal
       comfort, convenience, or advantage."
             In my opinion that statement directly and absolutely
       disproves Tim's expectation of fascism.
.
That statement does "directly and absolutely disprove" an
expectation of LaVey-style nihilism; but, as Tim pointed out to me
in BASE OF SET, fascist ideology is  *not*  incompatible with an
emphasis on the idea of honor.  (The concepts of elitism and honor
don't prove that ToS and/or the Order of the Trapezoid  *are*
fascist, but they certainly don't disprove it.)  So, I definitely
wouldn't use this particular argument unless you're familiar with
fascist concepts of "honor" and are prepared to spell out how the
Order of the Trapezoid's concept differs from it.
.
Backtracking a bit, just after your enumeration of the central
doctrines of Nazism and fascism which Aquino disagrees with, you
made a series of arguments which I wouldn't use because they sound
too much like evasions (which seems to be a common ToS bad habit,
perhaps growing out of most Setians' understandable desire to keep
a low profile).
.
       B >  You quote Dr. Aquino's 11/14/90 statement, "To the
       extent the Order is interested in Nazi Germany, it is
       essentially with regard to the very extensive research into
       occultism conducted by the Ahnenerbe and other groups &
       individuals during that period." You then go on to claim,
       "As the Order of the Trapezoid statement makes clear, there
       is much more to its interest in Nazism than this. Aquino
       does not address any of the specific issues raised in Tim's
       article, which I will highlight in a later message to you."
       [...]
             Reading through the Order of the Trapezoid
       statement, I find that the introduction concentrates on
       German Romanticism, and the Order's statement doesn't even
       mention the Third Reich until the eighth paragraph. The
       Third Reich and the Nazi influence is then discussed and
       dismissed in six paragraphs. The Third Reich and Nazi
       influence occupies less than one page in the five-page
       document.
             Reading those six paragraphs, I find myself unable
       to support your claim that "there is much more to its
       interest in Nazism than this."
             I do find the 1939 quote from Herman Rauschning,
       which said, "This irrational element in National Socialism
       is the actual source of its strength. It is the reliance on
       it that accounts for its 'sleepwalker's immunity' in the
       face of one practical problem after another. It explains
       why it was possible for National Socialism to attain power
       almost without the slightest tangible idea of what it was
       going to do. ..."
             Yes, the study of the social dynamics which are
       mentioned are of interest, but I fail to see the connection
       between those social dynamics and Naziism ... those social
       dynamics apply to all fanatical movements which quickly
       rise to power (or at least struggle for it). Do you
       disagree?
             If you can point out to me where you find this
       interest in Naziism rather than German Romanticism, perhaps
       I'll be better able to answer your question. Until then, I
       just don't see the source of your concern.
.
The Order of the Trapezoid statement does deal with how the German
Romantic concepts of "dynamism and life-worship" got used/abused by
the Nazis.  The statement says, "The uncanny attraction of the Third
Reich - Nazi Germany - lies in the fact that it endorsed and
practiced both dynamism and life-worship without restraint and to a
world-shaking degree of success."
.
Taken together, the Order of the Trapezoid statement and Aquino's
"response" to Tim show a concern with at least four different
elements pertaining to Nazi Germany:  (1) The Ahnenerbe S.S.'s
occult research, (2) the German Romantic philosophical background of
"dynamism and life-worship", (3) the social dynamics of a fanatical
movement, and (4) official Nazi artwork, as in the Fenris wolf on
the masthead of the Order of the Trapezoid's newsletter:  not just
any old Fenris wolf, but the specific artistic rendition of Fenris
"from the cover of the August 1941 issue of _Germanien_, official
journal of the _Ahnenerbe_, the elite section of the SS concerned
with the theory and practice of the Black Arts".  All of this,
together with the above-quoted statement referring to "The uncanny
attraction of the Third Reich", does indicate a  *fascination*  with
Nazi Germany, though not necessarily an  *agreement*  with Nazism
itself.  The fact that some of the above elements are not unique to
Nazism does not invalidate the thesis that Aquino's writings show a
*fascination*  for Nazi Germany, a thesis whose truth is even more
evident when I review the MAGICKNET archives.
.
Of course, as I've indicated, having a fascination for Nazi Germany
isn't the same thing as agreeing with Nazism.  You made a very good
case for the thesis that Aquino is not a "Nazi sympathizer".  Please
don't overstate your case by trying to claim or imply that he
doesn't have a particular fascination for Nazi Germany.  It probably
isn't an  *all-consuming*  fascination, and it's probably only one
of a number of Aquino's fascinations; but the fascination is clearly
there.
.
Regarding "the specific issues raised in Tim's article, which I will
highlight in a later message to you", I discussed most of them in my
5-part February 24 message to All in BASE OF SET, "Trapezoi.TXT".

-!- Maximus 2.00
 ! Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666)