textfiles/messages/BACKWATER/bw830925.txt

FILE ON
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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 *********************** REMOVED: 25 SEP 83 *************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6                     THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24 
25 The last two issues of Analog had a serial dealing with exactly
26 the kind of thing Mikey mentioned! They assumed that a enzyme was
27 discovered to be responsible for some kinds of psychotic etc behavior.
28 Since the enzyme had been known for some time before its effects
29 were figured out, it was KNOWN that some people were liable to
30 commit certain types of crime. Worse, due to a legal decision
31 (which was exactly the type of decision that some judges are
32 handing down in the REAL world) if you tested positive for the
33 enzyme, there was no point in trying you for any crime you committed.
34 After all, you were crazy, right? (you weren't locked up becuase
35 you were only crazy SOME of the time).
36 	
37 	An idea that has had some LIMITED trials in some areas is
38 for criminals to make restitution. Pay back the stolen money, pay
39 for repairs of the property, pay damages etc. If neccesary, they
40 are given a job. These jobs tend to be the menial, low paying
41 jobs that you have trouble hiring people for (too bad for the
42 crook). The system seems to have some value, how much is uncertain.
43 	Before anyone asks some of the obvious questions, I'll
44 give some of the answers:
45 1. No, you can't quit the job.
46 2. You may consider this "slavery" in view of #1, but slavery
47 	AS PUNISHMENT FOR A CRIME is still legal. (check the
48 	Constitution!)
49 3. (personal view) they shouldn't assign you work you are incapable
50 of doing. 
51 4. This is only until you have earned the money. Though I suppose
52    arrangements could be made if you wanted to KEEP the job.
53 _____________________________Leonard____________________________
54 *
55 this system is too confusing, and not explicite, also it contains no
56 user information
57 *
58  BYE SCOTT HUOTARI
59 *********************
60 
61 
62 
63 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
64 SCOTT, TYPE HELP WHEN YOU FIRST COME ON TO THE SYSTEM, OR AFTER READING THIS, 
65 TYPE "CONTROL C" AND THEN HELP.  DURING COMMAND MODE (A LITTLE > WILL APPEAR,
66 FOLLOWED BY THE CURSOR), COMMANDS MAY BE ENTERED.  TYPE LIST TO SEE THE WHOLE
67 DISK, PRINT TO START FROM WHERE YOU LEFT OFF, ENTER TO ENTER A MESSAGE, ETC. IT
68 ACTUALLY IS WELL EXPLAINED IN THE HELP  SECTION, BUT YOU MUST  GET  TO THE HELP
69 SECTION FIRST.  WHEN I FIRST USED THIS  SYSTEM, I FOUND IT CONFUSING, BUT I
70 JUST SAVED THE HELP SECTION AS A FILE,  STUDIED IT, AND NOW HAVE NO PROBLEMS.
71 YOU'LL GET IT SOON ENOUGH.
72     AS FAR AS FORCED LABOR FOR CONVICTS, THAT HAS BEEN TRIED (AND STILL IS).
73 CHAIN GANGS, MAKING LICENSE PLATES, ETC. ARE IN USE THROUGHOUT THE PRISON 
74 SYSTEM, AND IF IT HAS HAD AN EFFECT, I  HAVEN'T SEEN IT.  THE ONLY NEW THING
75 ABOUT THE SUGGESTION IS REIMBURSING THE VICTIMS, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT, BUT
76 HOW DO YOU MEASURE THE DEGREE OF LOSS IN TERMS OF MONEY TO SOMEONE WHO HAS LOST
77 A LOVED ONE TO A MURDERER?  AND FOR THE LESSER CRIMES, WHO SETS WHAT IS FAIR?
78 THE JUDGE?  BUT YOU WERE  JUST  TALKING ABOUT HOW SOME JUDGES DO INEXPLICABLE
79 THINGS IN SENTENCING, SO HOW COULD YOU  TRUST THEIR JUDGEMENT WITH THIS?
80      ONE OTHER THING:  WHILE IT  MAY BE LEGAL TO INSLAVE SOMEONE IN A JAIL (I
81 DON'T KNOW THAT THAT IS CORRECT, BUT I  WILL TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT), LEGAL AND
82 MORAL ARE TWO DIFFERENT QUESTIONS.  IT  WAS LEGAL FOR THE SOUTH TO KEEP SLAVES,
83 BUT I CERTAINLY DON'T THINK THAT IT WAS EITHER MORAL OR ETHICAL.  I AGREE THAT
84 CRIMINALS MUST PAY BACK THEIR VICTIMS,  BUT JUSTIFYING IT BASED ON ITS LEGALITY
85 WITHOUT AN EXAMINATION OF ITS MORAL AND ETHICAL IMPLICATIONS CAN ONLY LEAD TO
86 PROBLEMS.  TOO MANY LAWS IN OUR NATION  ARE BASED ON A VALID INTENT, BUT IGNORE
87 THE WANTS AND NEEDS OF THE PEOPLE  THEY WERE DESIGNED TO PROTECT.  PROHIBITION
88 DURING THE THIRTIES SHOWED THAT ANY LAW THAT DOESN'T HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE
89 PEOPLE WILL FAIL, NO MATTER HOW PROPER  AND RIGHTEOUS ITS AIMS.  THE CURRENT
90 PROBLEMS WITH MARIJUANA  SHOW  THE SAME THING, BECAUSE SO MANY WANT TO USE IT,
91 THE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ARE SIMPLY INCAPABLE OF KEEPING UP WITH THOSE WHO
92 WANT TO USE IT.  IT IS  NOW  ESTIMATED  THAT MARIJUANA IS THE 3rd LARGEST CASH
93 CROP IN THE COUNTRY, AND CAN ONLY GROW  LARGER.
94      BACK TO THE SUBJECT (SORRY, I DID  RAMBLE THERE), A SOLUTION MIGHT BE FOR
95 THE CRIMINALS TO WORK TO PAY BACK THEIR VICTIMS, BUT THAT SOMEHOW AN AMOUNT IS
96 SPECIFIED AS TO WHAT IS OWED, AND PAYED BACK FROM A COLLECTIVE FUND FROM THE
97 WORK OF ALL CONVICTS.   THAT WAY,  THE  VICTIM WON'T BE DEPENDANT UPON THE 
98 DESIRE OF THEIR PARTICULAR CRIMINAL TO  WORK FOR RESTITUTION, NOR WILL THEY
99 HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL HE HAS WORKED BEFORE THEY GET SOMETHING.  A FAMILY THAT HAS
100 LOST ITS SOURCE OF INCOME FROM THE DEATH OF THE BREADWINNER BY MURDER CAN'T 
101 WAIT FOR THE MURDERER TO  AMASS  ENOUGH MONEY AT $3.25/HOUR (OR LESS) TO HELP
102 THEM PAY FOR FOOD AND HEAT.  THEY NEED  HELP NOW, NOT LATER.                  
103                                                                                
104 [][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM?[][][][][]
105 SINCE MOST VIOLENT CRIMES ARE COMMITTED BY PEOPLE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF
106 ALCOHOL OR SOME OTHER MIND ALTERING DRUG, HOW ABOUT OUTLAWING THESE - REALLY
107 GOING AFTER THEM. LET PEOPLE DRINK ONLY IN THEIR HOMES, MAYBE, AS A START.
108 LIFE SENTENCES FOR DRUG SALES AND SMUGGLING. DEATH SENTENCE FOR ANY INTENTION-
109 AL MURDER?
110 )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))COLONEL BATGUANO+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
111 I'm not sure, but I don't think the movie's character was COLONEL Batguano. Perhap
112 Major.
113 Don't have a tape of it, so can't look it up.
114 '&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'&'
115 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
116 UP 3
117 
118 To: All
119 From: BACH
120 re User Group startup
121 Any one interested in starting a Commodore 64 User Group in the SW Portland area? L
122 Leave a message for BACH on this BBS or leave name and phone for BACH on the Bit
123 Bucket BBS.
124 ********************
125 *******for sale*****
126 ********************
127  
128 1975 plymouth roadrunner
129 white with gold racing pinstripes
130 $1600.00 firm
131 stock 318
132 clean inside and out
133 reach me via this netwk or cbbs/nw or pms portland
134 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
135 
136 Leonard:  Sorry I couldn't respond to your message (now on disk B)
137 sooner; I had a family emergency to attend to.  Question #1 has already
138 been answered correctly by P. V. so I will not comment further on that ex-
139 cept to say that this solution may be verified (if you have not already done
140 so) by simply multiplying it by itself and simplifying.  With regard to
141 Question #2, I first checked a few books for derivations of this, but
142 could find none.  After thinking about it, though, I realized it wasn't too
143 horendous, so I derived it myself.   Here is my derivation, however, I have
144 no idea whether or not it is the original derivation.
145 
146 Let LN(X) be the notation for the natural logarithm of X and e be the
147 constant "e", Pi be the constant "Pi", and i be SQR(-1)=-1^(.5).
148 
149 By definition of natural logarithm:
150 i^i=e^(LN(i^i))=e^(i*LN(i))
151                =e^(i*LN(-1^.5))
152 *****          =e^(.5*i*LN(-1))
153 
154 Let x be a real number such that the complex solution of LN(-1) is x*i.
155 Then by def of nat. log e^(x*i)=-1.
156 
157 By Euler's Formula:
158 e^(x*i)=cos(x)+i*sin(x)=-1[+i*0]
159 So cos(x)=-1     and    sin(x)=0
160    x=arccos(-1)         x=arcsin(0)
161              x=Pi
162 Therefore, log(-1)=x*i=Pi*i
163 
164 By substitution into ***** (above):
165 i^i=e^(.5*i*Pi*i)=e^(.5*i*i*Pi)
166    =e^(.5*(-1)*Pi)=e^(-.5*Pi)
167 
168 With regard to classes, prerequisites, etc., most college classes do not re-
169 quire "irrelevant" prerequistes, although, they often do require
170 relevant prereq's and it is usually advisable to have taken them as they
171 include background material necessary fr the class in question.  Also most
172 classes are open to any student with the prereq's regardless of whether
173 part of full time and whether or not a major is declared.  I suspect some
174 private colleges such as Reed may be exceptions to the above, but I know this
175 is true of PSU and U of P and three other (non-local) colleges I have
176 attended.  I strongly suspect it also applies to local community colleges.
177 At PSU and probably most others, if there is a class that requires a
178 prereq which you haven't taken, but
179 you feel qualified anyway, and if the instructor agrees he will usually forego the 
180 prereq requirement.  Also if you are REALLY confident you can just register
181 for the class and often nobody will notice (the computer does not check for this).
182 
183 BAD:  I have valuable (probably) info for you, but must be private.  If
184 possible, please let me know how to contact you via US Mail:
185 DOM
186 PO Box 1057
187 Portland OR 97207
188 
189                                                   Dirty Ol' Man
190 
191 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
192 ......................
193 The reason we have more blacks in jail is two fold: they get poorer justice
194 and are poorer due to the same. We are no shining light of justice.
195 As to who can say if a person is likely to commit crime, we don't want
196 the head shrinks, their record is zip, but the police are good at it.
197 Right now we have only punishment a9 deterence, I suggest we try for 
198 something better. Why are there so many laws on the books? One reason is
199 wishful thinking: 'if we make it illegal no one will do it.' Throw out all
200 society doesn't need or want and we will be a lot better off.
201 Prisons are not for the criminal, they do nothing good for him, their only
202 use is to get the crooks off the street.
203 As to theose who drive without a lisence, require the lisence to be visible
204 when driving, require the police to impound any wrongly displayed (like when
205 no one is driving ((parked car)) and jail the offenders. speeding kills, so
206 put the speed limit at 100*0 (that isn't division) it would make the roads
207 safe. Really, set the speed limit at what society wants, like 5 miles above
208 the average. It isn't speed so much as wrong speed.
209 I think the article ontrace metals in hair was not about criminals having
210 any special pattern, but rather that we each carry a unique pattern, and
211 a hair found at the scene can be uniquely matched to show the suspect was
212 there.
213 I keep seeing the comment that totalitarian governments use the methods I
214 propose, and that this implies they are wrong. Even Hitler liked to eat, so
215 obviously eating is evil. They also have to deal with society, and use the
216 same methods as any government. Freedom is very much a state of mind. We
217 trade one freedom for another. If we like the freedoms we have, we feel
218 free, but someone from a different culture would not be happy, he doesn't
219 want the freedoms we have, and feels trapped by what we traded for what we
220 have. I suggest trading the freedom of criminals for the freedom of others.
221 
222 ////////////////BAD Portland Or 97202\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
223 A PROGRAMMER'S PRECEPT
224 	EITHER MAKE THE PROGRAM SO SIMPLE IT IS OBVIOUS THERE ARE NO ERRORS,
225 	OR SO ELABORATE THAT THERE IS NO OBVIOUS ERROR
226 .......................................
227 A few more thoughts. Making the criminal pay the victim isn't going to
228 work. One likely reason he broke into your house in the first place is he
229 couldn't get or hold a job, and he isn't going to be able to later either.
230 If you make a job for him, the unions will fight you. There are about
231 10 million would be workers looking for a job who would do it for $3.25
232 an hour, or any other wage. If violent crimes are the result of drugs, so
233 what? Making drugs illegal doesn't work (prohibition). Admittedly many
234 crimes are to feed a drug habit. The only solution is to get the criminals
235 out of circulation. You can make them work in jail the same way most of
236 are forced to work on the outside: no work, no food.
237 Punishment doesn't work to prevent crime unless the would be criminal 
238 expects to be punished. Jailing should not be used as punishment, but to
239 get the criminal out of the street.
240 Pot may be called the 3rd biggest cash crop, but this is warped by 2 things,
241 1. it is usually reported at "street value", i.e. retail price, while
242 other crops are valued at the farmer's prices. The street value of wheat
243 would be the price of bread.
244 2. being illegal, the criminals who sell it can charge anything they can
245 get; there is little competition.
246 If you want to get pot off the market you have to either make people stop
247 wanting it, or make it too expensive. This means more than in dollar price,
248 such things as fear of punishment, fear of paraquat, etc. also work. There
249 are several chemicals reported that cause severe nausea, or that cause
250 the white of your eyes to change color, spray these on the plants & jail
251 everyone who has purple eyes. Cyanide also works well. Making it legal
252 would likely cut the price to 1% of it's present value, but is this what
253 we want? Opiates were outlawed for good, then very obvious reasons. When 
254 they were legal there were many users, and it hurt them and society badly.
255 Being imported made outlawing them work. It failed with alcohol because
256 too many wanted it, and it is too easy to make. And the laws weren't 
257 really enforced. 
258 I want stiff, universal enforcement of the laws, at the source the criminal.
259 //////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
260 ***********************************************************************
261 BAD: 
262 The article about trace metals was specifically about the criminal aspects
263 in regard to the amount of trace metals in hair. In fact it was written by
264 a person who had devoted his study to criminals and why they perform the
265 crimes they do. (Science News 8/20/83) He had decided to explore the trace
266 metal concept. The later issue (Science News 9/10/83) delt with some of the
267 legal aspects of this. There has been a recent(?) upsurge by some scientists
268 to beleive that the criminal can't help what he does, that it is caused by
269 body chemistry. (As oppossed to the old concept that it is all societies
270 fault.) Also for anyone who is interested, the 12/11/82 ssue of Science News
271 delt with a simular concept with premenstrual syndrome. My own feelings on the
272 whole thing is that each person is accountable for their own actions period.
273 ******** CISTOP MIKEY ********* 21 SEPT 83 ********** 8:50AM ***************
274 BAD: tell a heroin addict that outlawing opiates has made them unavailable
275 - he'll laugh at you (if he can spare the time from trying to pay
276 the street prices). True, my comments were "forced labor", but even
277 here in Portland it is COMMON to include MANDATORY community service
278 as part of a sentence. (I know because I've seen some recieve 40
279 hrs of "volunteer" work as part of his sentence). As for the unions, they won't 
280 care. The jobs (things like hand-sorting garbage at a recyling
281 plant/trash burner are NOT attracting workers at any feasible
282 wage.
283 	PAM: I more or less assumed that the payback would come
284 out of a fund. The idea was that the criminal had to do at least
285 enough work to pay the fund back. I admit that there is no easy
286 way to figure out what a violent crime (esp murder) is "worth".
287 We might start with the standard insurance tables. 
288 Many of these people may have trouble holding a job, however the
289 are ways of handling this (in many cases). Some people don't keep
290 jobs because they are always late, decide not to go to work etc.
291 These options are "obviously" not available in this situation.
292 Pay geared to productivity will also encourage them to work, as
293 they have a definite goal to make & will probably want to get it
294 done as soon as possible. They may even pick up better work habits!
295 I doubt that this would be effective in ALL cases (or that it
296 should even be TRIED for crimes like murder), but it would be better
297 than jail time for many crimes. In fact now that I think about it
298 it would be perfect for traffic violations, vandalism, & other
299 such crimes. How would you feel about speeding, if a ticket meant
300 spending a couple of weekends working for the Park Bureau (landscaping etc)?
301 Basically, use it on the "minor" criminals, so that there is more
302 room in jail for the MAJOR ones. And avoid the "crime school" problem!
303 
304 DOM: thanks, now I see that I could have figured it out
305 myself if I'd gone about it properly. I guess I just let the idea
306 of raising a number to an imaginary power throw me!
307 The pre-requisites I was talking about were things like English
308 Composition as a pre-req for a computer class I once took at PCC.
309 I think they were assuming that if you took the CS class, you were
310 in the degree program.
311 
312 To:ALL 
313 Ok, I admit that the "work out the cost of your crime" idea ISN'T
314 a universal solution. How about a list of crimes it SHOULD be used for? 
315 And another list of the ones it shouldn't be used for. 
316 WILD IDEA #2: A _FEDERAL_ law allowing you to challenge any other
317 law on the grounds of either non-uniform application or non-enforcement.
318 If you (plural, as in a class-action suit) win, then the law must
319 either be dropped from the books OR it must be ENFORCED AS WRITTEN.
320 If the latter, it would be subject to an AUTOMATIC review every
321 so often & if it is once again not being enforced, then it MUST
322 be dropped (NO OPTION!). This might chop the legal jungle down
323 to size. It might make the wording of the laws a little better too!
324 __________________________Leonard______________________________
325 
326 HELP!! I HAVE A SILVER-REED EXP 550 PAR-
327 ALLEL PRINTER THAT I HAVE TRIED TO 
328 INTERFACE WITH MY TI-99/4A. IT SEEMS TO
329 BE A WIRING PROBLEM AS PRINTER PROTOCOL
330 APPEARS TO MATCH COMPUTER'S. CAN YOU 
331 HELP ME FIND MY PROBLEM? CALL WAYNE AT
332 642-xxxx IF YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS. I'M G
333 PULLING MY HAIR OUT OVER THIS.
334 
335                   WAYNE
336                 ALIAS "BALDY"
337 DEAR BALDY: IF NOBODY ELSE CAN HELP, THE PEOPLE AT KELLY DATA IN ALOHA 
338   HAVE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE INTERFACING TYPEWRITERS, PRINTERS, ETC AND
339   PROBABLY CAN FIGURE OUT THE RIGHT CABLE FOR THAT. CAL 649-xxxx AND
340   ASK FOR JIM. THEY WILL MAKE THE CABLE FOR YOU IF YOU NEED A DIFFERENT ONE.
341 
342 TO ALL:LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE A TOPIC WE ALL CAN GET UP ON A SOAPBOX ABOUT. 
343   THE LENGTH OF ENTRIES IS INCREASING DRAMATICALLY, SO I ASSUME THAT
344   WORLD VEIW AND SELF IMAGE ARE NOW AT STAKE.
345 
346 TO BAD:YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN A VERY SIMPLE SETUP, TO WHIT THAT THERE ARE
347   TWO KINDS OF PEOPLE, BAD AND GOOD. YOU BELIEVE YOURSELF TO BE ONE OF THE
348   LATTER AND ASSUME THAT NO-ONE ELSE COULD MAKE A MISTAKE ABOUT THAT.
349   IF YOU GIVE SOMEONE ELSE THE RIGHT TO IMPRISON YOU ON SUSPICION ALONE
350   OR FOR YOUR PREDILICTIONS THE WILL DO SO BASED ON THEIR OPINIONS, NOT
351   YOURS. I BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE LITTLE INSIGHT INTO HUMAN RELATIONS IF
352   YOU BELIEVE IN THAT, AND HAVE LITTLE INSIGHT INTO YOUR OWN PERSONALITY
353   AS WELL. FOR THE TOTALITARIANS WE HAVE SPOKEN OF,THESE BELIEFS WERE
354   NO INCIDENTAL FACETS OF THEIR LIVES. THESE BELEIFS THAT YOU HOLD WERE
355   CENTRAL BOTH TO THEIR OUTLOOK AND THEIR METHODOLOGY.
356    AS TO THE DEBATE ON THE PHYSIOLOGY OF CRIMINALS, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW
357  HOW YOU RESOLVE THESE THREE THINGS: 1 - THAT YOU BELEIVE THAT BLACKS
358  ARE IN JAIL MORE OFTEN BECAUSE OF POVERTY AND AN INJUST SYSTEM OF JUSTICE.
359  2 - THAT YOU BELEIVE THAT CRIMINALS CAN BE DETECTED BY HAIR SAMPLES, 
360  THUS INDICATING THAT YOU THINK CRIME MAY HAVE A PHYSIOLOGICAL BASIS.
361  3 - THAT HALF THE MURDERS IN THE COUNTRY ARE ONE YOUNG BLACK MAN KILLING
362  ANOTHER YOUNG BLACK MAN.  I AM NOT SAYING THAT THESE THINGS CAN'T BE
363  RESOLVED, JUST WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW.
364 
365 TO ALL: THE GREATEST PHYSIOLOGICAL CORRELATION FOUND TO DATE WITH CRIMINAL
366 ACTIVITY OF A GENERAL NATURE IS TESTOSTERONE LEVEL. THAT'S PROBABLY WHY
367 OLDER MEN COOL IT EVEN AFTER A LIFETIME OF CRIME. THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE
368 GROUP IS MEN WHO HAVE TWO Y CROMOSOMES, AND THUS LOTS OF TESTOSTERONE.
369 THEIR ARE SOME OTHER CHEMICAL RBAIN DISORDERS THAT ARE NOW IMPLICATED
370 IN PARTICULAR CRIMES LIKE MASS MURDER. NOW, YOUNG BLACK MEN HAVE A HIGH
371 TESTOSTERONE LEVEL COMPARED TO YOUNG WHITE MEN. SHOULD WE THEREFORE LOCK THEM
372 ALL UP? SHOULD WE LOCK UP ANY YOUNG MEN WITH A HIGH TESTOSTERONE LEVEL?
373 ONE QUANDRY IS THAT MOST OF OUR LEADERS AND INNOVATORS (AMONG MEN ONLY?)
374 ARE ALSO PART OF THIS HYPER-AGGRESSIVE GROUP. WE STILL ARE LEFT WITH THE
375 FACT THAT WE ARE DEALING WITH INDIVIDUALS HERE, AND EVEN IF WE FIND A
376 PHYSIOLOGICAL BASIS FOR DEFINING A CLASS OF LIKELY CRIMINALS, WE CANNOT
377 LOCK SOMEONE UP BECAUSE OF PHYSIOLOGY ALONE. NOR CAN ONE MAKE HASTY 
378 INFERENCES ABOUT THE VALUE OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE BASED ON ONLY ONE FACTOR BEING
379 CONSIDERED. IN ADDITION, GENETICS ALONE DOES NOT DETERMINE PHYSIOLOGY,
380 AND PHYSIOLOGY CAN CHANGE. FOR INSTANCE, TESTOSTERONE LEVELS GO UP WHEN SEXUAL
381 ACTIVITY INCREASES, SO THAT THERE CAN BE A SOCIAL BASIS (AVAILABILITY
382 OF SEX PARTNERS) FOR A PHYSIOLOGICAL PHENOMENON. IF METALS ARE FOUND IN
383 HAIR, WHAT DOES THIS REALLY TELL US? SOME THINGS ABOUT DIET, PERHAPS.
384 ))))))))))))))))MAJOR/COLONEL/BATPOOP/BATGUANO, THE MAGNIFICENT+++++++++++
385 P.S. THE NAME IS REALLY GETTING OUT OF HAND. FROM NOW ON I WILL BE:
386 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HROTHGAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
387 Who says we all enter long messages?   Anon.
388 ============================================
389 Attention!
390 ATTENTION ALL BIT BUCKET USERS!!!
391    As you know, the Bit Bucket bulletin board system is a 300
392 baud only system. I am coordinating an effort to make it a
393 1200 baud system, but I need a little help from all of you
394 users out there! If everyone donates 5 dollars or so, we could
395 have the Bit Bucket on 1200 baud in no time! If anyone is
396 interested, leave me a message on the Bit Bucket, PMS or CBBS
397 concerning this. Please DO NOT leave the message on here, it's
398 the most difficult system to get onto. Thank you
399 
400                                      Chris Bradley
401                                         - 20 -
402 End Transmission
403 TO: THE ONGOING DISCUSSION ON CRIMINALITY AND THE JUSTICE SYSTEM:
404 
405 
406 MICKEY & BAD, YOU ASSERT THAT SHRINKS ARE BAD AT PREDICTING CRIMINALITY
407 (I ASSUME YOU REFER TO VIOLENT CRIME) AND THAT COPS ARE GOOD AT THIS
408 TYPE OF PROGNOSTICATION.  RATHER EXTENSIVE AND WELL DESIGNED 
409 RESEARCH IN THE RECENT PSYCHIATRIC LITERATURE INDICATES THAT NEITHER
410 SHRINKS NOR COPS ARE ANY GOOD AT THIS SORT OF THING.  AS A MATTER OF FACT,
411 THE ONE GROUP WHICH SEEMS TO HAVE A STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT EDGE
412 IN THIS REGARD IS A RANDOMLY SELECTED GROUP OF VOLUNTEERS--YOUR
413 LEDGENDARY "MAN ON THE STREET!"
414 
415 A RECENTLY POPULAR OPTION, IN A GROWING NUMBER OF STATES, TO THE
416 VERDICT OF "NOT-GUILTY BY REASON OF INSANITY" IS THE VERDICT OF
417 "GUILTY, BUT MENTALLY ILL" OR "GUILTY, BUT NOT MENTALLY COMPETENT.
418 THE BENEFICIARIES OF THESE VERDICTS SERVE THE CONVENTIONAL PENALTIES
419 FOR THEIR CRIMES.  LAWS AND PENAL POLICY (AS OPPOSED TO PENILE
420 POLICY, DISCUSSED ABOVE) DO NOT ASPIRE TO ADDRESS LEGAL OR ETHICAL
421 ISSUES.  THEIR RAISON D'ETRE IS TO PROTECT THE LARGEST GROUP OF THE
422 GENERAL POPULATION FROM THE ACTS OF A MINORITY WHO THREATEN THEIR
423 BASIC RIGHTS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.
424 
425                            NICE BOARD,
426 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
427 AN INTERESTING SERIES OF IDEAS, I MUST  SAY.  AS TO OPIATES, MARIJUANA, AND
428 SUCH BEING ILLEGAL, THEY ARE ILLEGAL AND WILL REMAIN ILLEGAL, NOT BECAUSE
429 THEY ARE HARMFUL (SOME OF THEM ARE), BUT BECAUSE ORGANIZED CRIME LOST
430 ALCOHOL, AND THEY ARE DETERMINED NOT TO LOSE THESE.  MARIJUANA IS A LARGE
431 SOURCE OF REVENUE FOR THEM,  TOO  LARGE FOR THEM TO LOSE.  SO IT WILL REMAIN 
432 ILLEGAL.  HOW COULD IT BE OTHERWISE?
433     AS FAR AS THE "INSANITY PLEA", WHILE IT CAN BE AN EASY WAY OUT FOR
434 SOMEONE WITH MONEY, POWER, OR INFLUENCE, IT IS A TRAP WORSE THAN JAIL FOR
435 ANYONE WITHOUT THESE.   THERE  ARE FEW  THINGS HARDER THAN GETTING A DOCTOR  
436 TO DECLARE YOU SANE ONCE YOU HAVE BEEN  DELCARED OTHERWISE IF YOU DON'T HAVE 
437 SOMEBODY ON THE OUTSIDE WORKING FOR YOU.  YOU CAN REMAIN THERE FOR THE REST
438 OF YOU LIFE, AND SOME HAVE.
439 
440 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM>[][][][][][]
441 jjjj
442 
443 
444 TO PERSON SIGNING 'NICE BOARD':   PLEASE DON'T CONFUSE ME WITH MICHAEL,
445 A DIFFERENT USER ALTOGETHER. I SIGN AS BELOW AT ALL TIMES, AND USE NO
446 OTHER SIGNITURE. I HAVE STATED NO VIEWS IN REGARD TO THE ABILITY OF
447 DOCTORS OR POLICE TO DETECT CRIMINALS. MY ONLY INPUT IN THIS REGARD
448 HAS BEEN THE TRACE METAL ISSUE, OF WHICH I AM SCEPTICAL.
449 THANK YOU.
450 *********** CISTOP MIKEY ******* 21 SEPT 83 ********** 10:45PM ********
451 P.S. (>)?  YES, I NOTICED THE SHIFT..
452 
453 """"""""""""""""""""""""""" What is"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
454 the difference between AIDS and Herpes II?   Herpes may end a love story;
455 AIDS is from a fairy tale.
456 --------------
457 Hey, you Red Cross types out there, all trained in CPR:  Who wins if you
458 revive an AIDS carrier if he lives another year and you live two more?
459 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] POOH [][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
460 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
461   gads! a few hours away from the terminal and 2 disks slip by! my 
462  apologies, PAM, I believe we were just about to delve into contemporary
463  education, yes?
464 
465            O Sublime Lady of Dragons!
466                 A fond and warm hullo! It has indeed been a long
467               time since you have graced us with the full power and
468               glory of your mighty pen; perchance i shall give you 
469               an opportunity to once again.......My curiosity has
470               been waxing; what are your views on Life, The Universe,
471               and Everything.......cut that down a bit? let try 
472                                    Religion
473               as a sort of middle ground that i can attempt to flex
474               some of my keyboard wizardry in also........Yes?
475 
476   Dark Prince........
477      how doth thee wield thy sword of justice, o hidden one?
478     
479   or maybe it nice to see you out here..(that was you,wasnt it?),hows
480  life treating you these days, and how goes the job?
481                                                  Aaron at 00:52
482 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
483 Leonard, I very much agree with your challenge and/or kill proposal.
484 I do not believe in easy solutions, there are no such things in social
485 situations, if you read this into nymy comments I can only wonder where your
486 mind is at. Many simple predictors of criminality have been put forward,
487 each called infalliable: skull shape, skin color, sexual preference, etc.
488 At present the only good predictor is past behavior; crimes are usually
489 commited by repeaters. age, hormone levels, trace metals, etc show up only
490 in carefully adjusted statistical studies. Many crimes relate to paying for
491 illegal drugs. My desire is to get the criminal off the street, at present
492 this means jailing the repea8ters before they can it again.
493 Making opiates illegal has greatly reduced the amount yused, and the number
494 of users. Anything is availble if you want it bad enough, but with addictive
495 drugs, the primary need is to prevent starting & this helps. The problems
496 with opiates was FAR greater when the stuff was legal. 
497 Some other things that have been related to crimes (forgenuine) are weather,
498 ion density, sulphur in air, and the phase of the moon. All of these can
499 be used to predict rising crime rates, but knowing this does very little
500 to prevent crime; threats don't work unless you can (and do) carri them out,
501 but removing the worst criminals does. Anyone with an other suggestion to
502 reduce crime please step forward. If sex hormones cause crime, a good 
503 treatment would be castration.
504 ///////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
505 #######
506 ################################################################################
507 WHO THE HELL LEFT THE MARGIN AT 7?
508 TO THE PERSON ABOVE THAT WAS ASKING ABOUT THE MORALITY OF MAKING CRIMINALS
509 SLAVES; MORALITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. AFTER ALL THE CRIME COMMITTED WAS 
510 IMMORAL TO START WITH. WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO AN EYE FOR AN EYE?
511 ####################C.Y.M.######################################################
512 
513 An eye for an eye?  It moved to Iran.   Shall we cut off the hands of thiefs?   Thank God we live in America.
514 
515 *************Captain America***********
516 TO: ALL
517 FROM:VINCE RADCLIFFE
518      FFOR SALE
519 1970 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT 4WD
520 LOW MILES-V8-4SPD-STERO-CB
521 CROME WHEELS-GOOD TIRES-WARREN HUBS
522 $2400 OR TRADE FOR SMALL PICKUP
523 CALL AFTER 4PM 289-xxxx[[VINCE]]
524 
525 :::::::::::::::
526 Correction:  It WAS Colonel Batguano.  Sorry about that.
527 :::::::::::::::
528 WELL NOW!
529 BAD HAS BECOME SO REASONABLE OVER THE LAST FEW MESSAGES THAT I CAN NO LONGER
530 ARGUE WITH HIM/HER AT ALL. PITY. FULL MOON SEEMS TO HAVE CALMED THINGS DOWN A
531 BIT HERE.
532 
533 BATPOOP IS DEAD! LONG LIVE !!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!,
534 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!AN ADDITIONAL LITERARY ALLUSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
535 &&&&&&&+++++++++[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[++                                                                       Hi
536          everyone!!!!                        AFTER HVING
537 DELETE
538 
539 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!                                                  HI EVERYONE!!                   
540      list
541 list
542 AFTER HAVING READ     THE FIRST FEW          MESSAGES I FIGURED    YOU NEEDED A BREAK
543      I HOPE YOU HAVE        HAD A NICE DAY                                               FROM ONE WHO CARES
544                                                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
545 OUT
546 I just  thought that  would get in my 2 cents! (I'm new on the  system)
547 Are  there any ADVANCED Vic-20 owners out there?
548 If so-please leave a phone number.
549 
550 
551 
552        'Kid'
553 
554 
555 **********************
556 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
557   there are no advanced Vic-20 owners.......
558                                                  Aaron
559 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
560 DID HE WANT TO KNOW IF THE VIC-20 WAS ADVANCED OR IF THE OWNER WAS ADVANCED?!?!  WAYNE
561 *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
562 Aaron:
563 Nice to see you back.  I thought you had gotten disgusted with this system and 
564 left...Job's doing fine after the back to school rush.
565 All:
566 On the crime issue, I remember reading a science fiction story years ago about
567 a penal colony named 'Sanctuary'...A few hundred thousand acres that was fenced
568 so no one could get out.  The land was lush enough to allow inmates a minimal
569 existance.  They were allowed to take in a maximum of 100 lbs., with a few 
570 restrictions on items.  Once in the colony, they were on their own until their
571 sentence was up.  Cost to the state was minimal since there were no expenditures
572 for food, clothing, etc.  A harsh sentence reserved only for repeat offenders.
573 A possible solution, who knows?
574                         DP
575 *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
576 
577 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
578 
579 Captain America:  I suggest instead of thanking God, that you thank the native
580 Americans for their land and their blood and the Afro-americans for their
581 sweat; as without both, this country would not exist.
582 
583                                                     Dirty Ol' Man
584 
585 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
586 advanced VIC-20?????
587 yes, i own one, but not because it is an advanced machine, but because it
588 is cheap, and small enough to carry around (If it breaks, I won't cry much)
589 It's a lot of bang for the buck, but the bucks are small..Like the VIC,s
590 memory. The BASIC is similar to what I run on the big machine, with only a
591 enough deletions to make it annoying. Beyond BASIC it aint got much. But
592 what else can you buy for $84 ??
593 
594 RThank who for America?? I thank those who died in all the wars we have 
595 fought in to stay free, and those who came back crippled. They paid for
596 our freedom, and paid big.
597 
598 As for cutting off the hands of thieves, it seems to work, there is little
599 theft in Iran. (And not enough murder, since you-know-who is still alive)
600 but you can't answer that on this disc/////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
601 ******************************************************
602 Ah dear lady, the ones of note are the faithfull Aaron who has called
603 your name serveral times and found no answer. PAM as well a most
604 sesioned traveler has expressed loss at no longer hearing the words
605 that pass thru your fingers.
606 And, sigh.. Even I do miss your thoughts and words as they flow thru
607 this Inn crowded though it is at times like these.
608 But hark! Do you not see that it changes yet again? For the night of
609 the egos is closing fast. Perhaps a new decore can be added to the Inn.
610 ****** CISTOP MIKEY ****** 22 SEPT 83 ******** 9:34PM ***************
611 What I ment by advanced, was advaanced programmers!
612 I also happened to think  that  the VIC-20 is a very good  machine.
613 It  may start out at a low  price, but with some expansion it is a very good
614 computer. I have also writen a machine language program to make te screen
615 40x26 chaaracters. So maybee  some  of you people ought to look before you leap!
616 I'm sorry for the confusion,
617 
618 
619 
620         'kid'
621 
622 
623 
624 ****************************************