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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
October 3, 1989  10:00 pm eastern time
Topic:  Resource Forks and What to do With Them
Forum Leader:  Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)

AFL Scott  Have to find more err.... resources..:)
AFL Dyfet  Speaking of resources; Good evening and welcome to the Apple II
           Development
AFL Dyfet  Forum chat.  Tonight's topic will be 'resources'; What are they;
           what you can
AFL Dyfet  do with them; etc.  I was hoping that, by this time, several new
           products 
AFL Dyfet  intended to make life easier with resources on the GS would
           already be out on
AFL Dyfet  the market, but it appears this has yet to happen.  In any case,
           we will be
AFL Dyfet  obverving PROTOCOL tonight, which means that if you wish to ask a
           question, you
AFL Dyfet  must enter a '?' on a line by itself, and if you wish to respond
           or comment on
AFL Dyfet  the question currently being asked, you must enter a '!' on a line
           by itself.
AFL Dyfet  I will then call you each in turn to speak.  Feel free to get your
           questions
AFL Dyfet  in the queue now, before I fill the rest of the screen :).
AFL Dyfet  Go ahead, Coach, you have the floor now.
Coach101   With a code resource,
Coach101   I presume that I write the code, use LinkIIGS to make an
           executable
Coach101   entity, and then *somehow* get the entire output from LinkIIGS
           into
Coach101   the resource fork.  Is there a utility to do that last step for
           me?
Coach101   ga
Coach101   Come on, is that tough a question?
AFL Dyfet  I would suspect you can bind it using the resource compiler.
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave...
Dave Lyons Sorry, I was away from my kbd for a sec--if you're using the Rez
           compiler (or
Dave Lyons on the Mac, the RezIIgs tool), you can use a simple directive like
           "load" (I
Dave Lyons may have the wrong name there) to include any sort of file (OMF is
           fine, but
Dave Lyons it works for anything) as a particular resource type/id.  For
           example,
Dave Lyons resource rCDevCode(1) load "myfilename";  or something (CDev code
           resource
Dave Lyons with ID 1).  ga
Coach101   Thanks Dave, I knew it had to be simple I just kept missing it in
           the
Coach101   manual....    done...
Dave Lyons (Oops--it's "read", not "load".)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe the next question was from WindRider.  GA
           Wind...
Windrider5 some basic question What types of resources are there? And what
           advantages are
Windrider5 there for using resources
AFL Dyfet  One advantage of resources is that you can store configuration
           information,
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet  device drivers, etc. in the same file as your application, and not
           need to
Coach101   !
AFL Dyfet  use subdirectories.  You can copy everything you need for your
           application to
AFL Dyfet  run in a single operation.  I see a lot of people wish to comment;
           Dave, GA.
Dave Lyons Okay...there are as many *types* of
Dave Lyons resources as you care to invent:  the Resource Manager is
           completely general
A GibberFC (hi all)
Dave Lyons in that sense.  There are a couple dozen "system resource types"
           (they have
Dave Lyons a standard format, and their types are in the range $8000+). 
           Types below
Dave Lyons  $8000 can be used for whatever anybody wants.  The currently
           defined system
Dave Lyons resource types include stuff like strings, control templates,
           control lists,
Dave Lyons window templates, control defprocs (code), & lots more (they're
           defined in
Dave Lyons the APDA draft of Toolbox Reference, Volume 3).
Dave Lyons Advantages:
Dave Lyons Users (and developers) can potentially use resource editors to
           cusotmize
Dave Lyons applications (wanna do a French version of your app?  Resources
           can make your
Dave Lyons life easier).
Dave Lyons The Resource Manager works very closely with the Memory Manager to
           give you
Dave Lyons stuff like resources that are purgable--if your user has lots of
           RAM, they
Dave Lyons won't need to do as much disk switching as a user in a low-memory
           environment.
Dave Lyons I'll stop here & give Coach a chance.   ga
AFL Dyfet  Ga Coach...
Coach101   I was going to comment on the advisability of storing information
           in
Coach101   a the load units resource fork that is *user* dependent (e.g.,
           configuration
Coach101   information).  In a multi-launch (file server) environment the
           user may
Coach101   not have write access to the program itself and different users
           may
Coach101   want different configurations....  ga
Dave Lyons (Very good point.)
AFL Dyfet  That is a very good point, Coach...
Dave Lyons :)
Coach101   No credit here....   Apple specifically mentions it in their
           publications.
AFL Dyfet  Do we have any more comments on this?
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe our next question is from Nuzz.  You have the
           floor, Nuzz.
Nuzz       What would be the procedure for an app that wanted to replace a
           res. without
Nuzz       having to first load it in and delete it?
AFL Dyfet  Do you mean applications that would modify their own resource
           forks?
Nuzz       Right
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave...
Dave Lyons Isn't there a RemoveResource call that takes a type and id &
           removes it from
Dave Lyons the most-recently-opened resource file?  (Looking it up....)
AFL Dyfet  I wish I could find and get all my manuals unpacked...
Dave Lyons Yes, it looks like there is--call
Nuzz       Doesn't RemoveResource require that it be loaded?
Dave Lyons number $0F1E.  Sine the
Dave Lyons er...SINCE the parameters are a resource type and a resource ID
           (and not a
Dave Lyons handle), no--I don't believe it requires you to load the resource
           first.
Nuzz       Can you REPLACE a resource without loading it?
Dave Lyons (The docs say it releases "any memory the resource occupied"; so
           it does
Nuzz       and keep the same Id
Dave Lyons release the resource if you loaded it without detaching it.)
Dave Lyons Checking AddResource....
Dave Lyons Since you get to specify the ID when you add a resource, you can
           just
Dave Lyons RemoveResource on the existing one and then AddResource with the
           same type
Dave Lyons and id as the resource you just removed.  If this isn't
           "replacing" it, I'm
Dave Lyons missing the distinction.
Dave Lyons An alternative
Dave Lyons approach, if it's easier, would be to SetResourceLoad to false, so
           that
Dave Lyons the resource is not actually loaded into memory, SetResourceLoad
           back to true,
Dave Lyons (after LoadResource-ing the one you want, of course), then
           SetHandleSize the
Dave Lyons handle you got from LoadResource, put whatever data you want in
           that handle,
Dave Lyons and WriteResource the thing (or MarkResourceChange so that it gets
           written
Dave Lyons later).
Nuzz       Any chance of a one call thing like _ReplaceResource. Sounds
           easier. GA
Dave Lyons I don't see
Dave Lyons how it's much easier than RemoveResource followed by
           AddResource--the only
Dave Lyons thing it saves you is doing a GetResourceAttr if you don't already
           know the
Dave Lyons attributes, right?
Nuzz       Sounds good to me.. Done
Dave Lyons (done)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I see that our next question is from Parik.  GA Parik, you
           have the
AFL Dyfet  floor.
AFL Dyfet  Okay, then I guess Jim will be next :).  GA Jim :)
JimNiemann What other products do people know about?  Other than
JimNiemann TML Pascal II, REZ, and Genesys? ga
JimNiemann I meant resource supportive products, of course!
Dave Lyons (Besides the Monitor? :-)
AFL Dyfet  A2GS, you seem to be first, GA :)
A2GS       Never mind, was wondering what he was talking about  :)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, GA Doctor Why...
Doctor Why ByteWorks will have a product early next year. DesignMaster, I
           think!
AFL Dyfet  I believe the people that originally put out Dialog Layout Utility
           will also
AFL Dyfet  have a visual resource editor sometime in the future.
AFL Dyfet  Parik, you wished to comment? GA.
Parik Dude right, DesignMaster by Chris Haun will be published by ByteWorks,
           its supposed
Parik Dude to be good * and * cheap!  :)  Also APW had/has (?) a program
           called Little
Parik Dude Res which is just a mini resource editor, works good.  Dunno if
           they'll put it
Parik Dude out with apw v2.0.  ga
AFL Dyfet  Okay, Dave, I believe your next...ga...
Dave Lyons Will any of these products be modular, so that people can write
           their own
Dave Lyons editor modules for application-specific resource types (the way
           you can for
Dave Lyons ResEdit on the Macintosh)?  ga
AFL Dyfet  Interesting point, Dave...Um, I believe Mike is next...GA
           Mike...
AFL Mike F I believe another Resource Program is Toolbox or something like
           that from Simple Software -- ...
AFL Mike F it has been announced and advertised but not out yet, from what I
           can tell.  GA
AFL Dyfet  Unfortunately, many of the products mentioned are just not
           available at this
AFL Dyfet  time.  When I scheduled this chat originally, I had hoped that at
           least a few
AFL Dyfet  of them would have been.
AFL Dyfet  Do we have any more comments on res editors?
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe our next question is from A2GS.  GA A2...
A2GS       Wasn't coach first?
AFL Dyfet  Oops...Okay.  We'll let Coach in, then :)
A2GS       First come, first serve (that's life)
Coach101   What do "-flag SYSTEM" and "-flag ROM" accomplish for me, please
           go
Coach101   beyond the verbiage in the APW manual :)
Coach101   Those are REZ options....
Dave Lyons (No idea so far.)
Coach101   Next Q     
AFL Dyfet  A very honest answer, if nothing else :)...
AFL Dyfet  Okay, for the moment we will go to A2GS then...GA A2...
A2GS       Are resources discussed thoroughly in TB Ref. III and is it
           available yet in
A2GS       it's finished form (TB III)?  GA
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave...
Dave Lyons A beta draft of TB Ref 3 is currently shipping from APDA.  No,
           it's not in its
Dave Lyons final form yet.  Whether resources are discussed "thoroughly" is
           somewhat
Dave Lyons subjective, I guess--I think it's thorough enough, and you can
           certaily
Dave Lyons get any questions you have answered here (you may even cause the
           answers to
Dave Lyons appear in a future version of the book, or in a Technical Note). 
           ga
AFL Dyfet  GA Coach.
Coach101   I have both ToolBox III and the new APW tools documentation (both
           from
Coach101   APDA and both are shipping), and I would say that between the two
           you 
Coach101   should find enough information to understand and use resources... 
            
A2GS       (Don't use APW, drives me up the wall  :)
Coach101   Be forewarned, Resources are a *meaty* subject, if you really want
           to
Coach101   get an understanding of them and make *maximum* use of them you
           should
Coach101   be prepared to invest some time in reading (more than once) the
           books...
Coach101   done
AFL Dyfet  Well said, Coach!  I believe our next question is from Michael. 
           GA.
AFL Mike F Slightly off the subject ... any word when System 5.0.2 will be
           available?  GA
Dave Lyons ! -> Nope.
AFL Dyfet  I have a feeling that Dave cannot comment on that one, even if he
           does know :)
Dave Lyons ("Soon" is the best I can do...out of my department.  I actually
           *don't* know.)
Coach101   Is it actually 5.0.2 or some other number?
Dave Lyons It's actually 5.0.2.
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe our next question is from JD.  GA JD.
JDavies1   This is way off the subject but... Does anyone know where I can
           get
JDavies1   Prosel16 (?)?
JDavies1   I can't find it anywhere and I deal in software
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave...
Dave Lyons Yes; lots and lots of people know. :-)  $60 from Glen Bredon, 521
           State Road,
Dave Lyons Princeton, NJ (but I can never remember the zip).  ga
AFL Dyfet  GA A2GS...
Coach101   Also carried by a number of advertisers in InCider....
A2GS       Never mind, basically STOLE the words right out of my mouth  :)
A2GS       DAVE
A2GS       that is
Dave Lyons :)
A2GS       :)
AFA Gary J Stole? :)
JDavies1   thanks alot.
A2GS       carefully eased the words right from between my teeth 
Coach101   Actually an *off the subject* comment as opposed to a
           question....
AFL Dyfet  Okay, moving along, I believe Coach now has the floor.  GA
           Coach...
Coach101   The technotes and filenotes are now in our library....
AFA Gary J Yup.
Coach101   My thanks to those who worked hard to get them there!
AFL Dyfet  Somebody noticed :)
Coach101   done
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J (Took most of the weekend  :)
AFL Dyfet  Gary did a very fine job on that :)...Okay, I believe our next
           question is from
Doctor Why Dave, is Apple working on SCSI backup & restore utilities that
           will recognize
AFL Dyfet  Doc Why.  GA Doc.
Doctor Why the new file type.
Doctor Why file type = resource forks
Dave Lyons Sorry--can't comment on future plans or lack thereof.  (It's a new
           "storage
Dave Lyons type", not file type.)  ga
AFL Dyfet  Prosel16 has utilities to handle backup and restoration of
           extended files.
AFL Dyfet  Well, I believe it's time to get that question queue filled back
           up :)
AFL Dyfet  GA Gary :)
AFA Gary J Is there any other reference material avaialble on resource files
           other than
Doctor Why Okay, I'll be ordering Prosel16. I just think that it's a mistake
           for Apple to
AFA Gary J the two sources mentioned from APDA (TB III and APW), and the
           Tech Notes?
Doctor Why supply an operating system that they don't supply the means to BU
           and Restore.
AFL Dyfet  Planning a book, Mike? :)...GA Mike...
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Mike F Nah Dave -- at least not yet.  But there is an article in Call
           -A.P.P.L.E. quarterly this fall on
AFL Mike F resources.
AFL Mike F Done
AFA Gary J Great.  (I think I just got mine in the mail today...
AFA Gary J ..haven't looked at it yet..)  Thanks.
AFL Mike F (Also has an article on TC by someone married to my wife.)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, GA A2, you have the floor now (too bad, I was kinda hoping
           for a new
AFL Dyfet  book from you, Michael :)
AFA Gary J heheh
AFL Mike F Love to do one Dave.  Just need a publisher.
A2GS       This is Wayyyyyyy of the beaten path and what we've been talking
           about tonight,
A2GS       but...
JDavies1   Who's married to your wife? And your not upset? 
AFL Mike F :)
A2GS       anyone know what the story is with this new mag. II Technical,
           missed them at 
A2GS       the Fest, Damn    GA
AFL Dyfet  GA Michael.
AFL Mike F II Technical is from Randy Hyde and the HAL Labs people -- they of
           LISA Assembler fame.  Just ...
AFL Mike F grabbed a look at it at the fest but subsribed right on the spot. 
           Haven't seen my copy yet but it
AFL Mike F was already in issue no. 2.  I ordered the back ones too.  GA
A2GS       I got their first issue and a subscription...just waiting right
           now.
AFL Dyfet  I kinda miss "Assembly Lines" myself.
AFL Mike F Agree Dave.
A2GS       We need more Mags!!!
AFA Gary J Yup.
A2GS       Mike you want to start one instead of your book?    :)
AFL Dyfet  It sounds like II Technical is trying to go after the old Assembly
           Lines nitche
AFL Dyfet  .  GA Mike.
A2GS       More Technical!
AFL Mike F On the issue of magazines, I assume everyone knows of the
           programming mags from Ariel Publishing --
A2GS       Yup!
AFL Dyfet  Yes, they put out an interesting zine, mostly dealing with
           Merlin.
AFL Mike F one for Merlin people (Sourceror's Apprentice I believe) on on
           Applesoft (Reboot), one of ZBasic
AFL Mike F for the II (can't remember the name) and one for ZBasic on some
           other computer Apple makes.
AFL Mike F Done
AFL Dyfet  You are correct on the titles of the first two, Michael.
AFA Gary J Anyone have an info/order address for II Technical?
AFL Dyfet  GA A2.
A2GS       Call...
A2GS       (714) 359-8480 for more info, to advertise or to submit articles
A2GS       It's a VERY technical magazine as far as topics go and also VERYYY
           interesting!
A2GS       Well not that Technical...
AFA Gary J Thanks.
AFL Dyfet  Sounds like just the kind of magazine I want to read :)
AFL Dyfet  GA A2...
A2GS       interested in the highlights of the first issue...or am I getting
           just a weee
A2GS       to much carried away   :)
AFA Gary J I'm interested.
AFL Dyfet  Why don't you start a thread on the subject of good hard core
           technical mags in
AFL Dyfet  one of the forum areas? :)
AFA Gary J Good idea.
A2GS       sounds good
AFL Dyfet  Maybe 'Forum Business'.