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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
May 23, 1989  10:00 p.m. Eastern time
Topic:  "Getting Started"
Forum Leader:  Dave Sugar  (AFL Dyfet)


CHRISZX    ANYONE- I'm looking for arcade routines in assembly for the IIgs,
	   does anyone
MDW Flyer  Hello Folks.  Is 'C' for a novice? 
A GibberFC My wife wishes that I never got into this development thingie
CHRISZX    know where I could find some coding?
HyperRam   Whats the faster way to learn Pascal besides college?
HyperRam   fastest I mean.
AFL Dyfet  Good evening, and welcome to the tuesday night Apple
AFL Dyfet  Development forum chat.  Tonight's topic is 'getting started'.
AFL Dyfet  We will be using PROTOCOL starting NOW.  This means
MDW Flyer  Getting started with 'C'.  Anyone?
AFL Dyfet  that if you wish to ask a question, you must enter a '?' on
AFL Dyfet  a line by itself, and if you wish to comment on the question
AFL Dyfet  being asked, you must enter a '!' on a line by itself.  I will
AFL Dyfet  call each of you in turn to speak.  I believe Chris had the
AFL Dyfet  first question.  GA Chris.
CHRISZX    I'm looking for arcade style assembly coding for the IIgs, help!
AFL Dyfet  I take it you are looking for examples?
CHRISZX    So far, nothing but dead ends...
CHRISZX    Yes, Dyfet. 
AFL Dyfet  Where have you tried?
CHRISZX    On Alink and writing to software companies
CHRISZX    that end up telling me about copyright laws.....
AFL Dyfet  Most companies would probably consider those 'trade secrets', as
	   their
AFL Dyfet  methods may give them an edge on other companies.  I know a few
	   companies
AFL Dyfet  like Penguin used to sell animation construction tools and
	   routines, but
AFL Dyfet  I know of no one selling this kind of a package for the GS so far.
	    Does
AFL Dyfet  anyone else have any comments or suggestions?
AFA Gary J !
AFL Dyfet  GA Gary.
JeffDavies !
AFA Gary J I know this isn't EXACTLY what you're looking for, but one of the
	   Apple source
AFA Gary J code samples does interrupt animation (by Jim Mensch).  It is in
	   our library.
AFA Gary J Also, a LOT can be learned by disassembling other people's code. 
	   It takes a
CHRISZX    I have it Gary, but, you know..........
AFA Gary J lot of work, but you learn a lot in the process.
AFA Gary J GA
JeffDavies The Book Apple graphics and arcade game design, by 'The Book
	   Company' but..
AFL Dyfet  Okay.  GA Jeff.
JeffDavies wow how was that for timing. what is ':)'
CHRISZX    Thanks for your help guys
CHRISZX    Chirs?
AFL Dyfet  :) is just a smiley face :).  I see the next question is from MDW
	   flyer.
AFL Dyfet  GA flyer.
MDW Flyer  I've gotten APW C.  Reading H. Schildts' Book. And d/l'd various
	   comments ALPE
MDW Flyer  Chris you might look at AnimDemo in the library
MDW Flyer  I was wondering if you have any suggestions about getting
	   started?
CHRISZX    Thanks MDW, I'll do that...
AFL Dyfet  In terms of books or programs, MDW?
MDW Flyer  Well, both.  I've used assembler, but like the structured approach
	   of 'C' or
AFA Parik  :)
MDW Flyer  TML's Basic.  Even if the latter is buggy under GSOS
AFL Dyfet  Does anyone here wish to recommend a book or program they have
	   found to be
AFL Dyfet  useful?
A GibberFC !
AFL Dyfet  GA Gibber.
MDW Flyer  Has ALPE University looked into 'C' as a topic/course?
A GibberFC anything with Lichty's name on it... for the //gs
MDW Flyer  Thanks Gibber!
A GibberFC His latest Lichty and Eyes "programming the Apple //gs in Assembly
	   language"
A GibberFC is Excelent
A GibberFC ga
AFL Dyfet  Anyone else?
AFA Parik  !
AFL Dyfet  GA Parik.
AFA Parik  Exploring the Apple IIgs by Gary Little is a great book too. 
	   Morgan Davis and
AFA Parik  Dan Gookins ToolBox Programming is a good replacement to Apple's
	   books, althoug
AFA Parik  its not as up-to-date as the updates :)  Lichty & Eyes books are
	   AWESOME ga
AFL Dyfet  Okay, any more comments?
AFL Dyfet  Okay, the next question is from Windrider.  GA.
Windrider5 Since Dave Lyons has joined DTS I've notice a little less help in
	   Let's Discuss
Windrider5 I am not sure what his offical role at APLE was but I sure hope
	   someone
Windrider5 replaces him
AFL Dyfet  Dave Lyons was a forum 'consultant'.  This means he's here to help
	   answer
AFL Dyfet  questions.  I'm sure once he gets settled in he will be on-line
	   more often.
AFA Parik  "was"?
AFL Dyfet  No was :).  Sorry about that.
AFL Dyfet  (make that is of course :).
AFL Dyfet  I believe our next question is from Jeff.  GA Jeff.
JeffDavies HyperRam GA I watchin Miss Universe
HyperRam   Me?
AFL Dyfet  Okay. GA HyperRam.
HyperRam   Ok, 
HyperRam   whats the best place to learn pascal besides colleges?
HyperRam   [tml pascal too]
AFA Parik  LOL
HyperRam   Is there going to be APLE courses sooon?
AFL Marty  (Nothing does, Gibber :)
AFL Dyfet  Too many flashes :).  Um, as to learning Pascal, you might try
	   inquiring into
AFL Dyfet  the ALPE class program if they are teaching it.  Anyone else have
	   a suggestion?
HyperRam   , I sent,
A GibberFC !
HyperRam   a letter to a user group and never got a reply. :) (hint)
AFL Dyfet  GA Gibber.
A GibberFC Well... I had to use a lot of books to teach myself languages...
	   In college
AFL Marty  !
A GibberFC I majored in Television Broadcast.... But the Book "OH Pascal" is
	   a good one
AFL Dyfet  GA Marty.
CHRISZX    !
A GibberFC to learn that language 
HyperRam   !
A GibberFC ga
AFL Marty  I think HyperRam may be looking for an alternative to reading
	   books...
A GibberFC !
AFL Marty  some folks (myself included) find it difficult to learn by reading
	   only...
JeffDavies I always keep going back to Programming with pascal, by Mc Graw
	   Hill.
AFL Marty  (are we in protocol?)
AFA Parik  ?
AFL Marty  I find it much easier to learn when I have more direct contact
	   with the
AFA Gary J <yes>
AFL Marty  instructor.  I'd like to see a University course for subjects
	   like
AFL Marty  Beginning Pascal, Assembler, C, etc.
AFL Marty  done
HyperRam   ! 
AFL Dyfet  Okay, GA Chris.
CHRISZX    Each book teaches something different so.......
Gferg      I am intersted in starting programing on the GS...What language to
	   you recomnd 
JeffDavies !
A GibberFC (my turn yet :)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I think Chris was done ??.  GA Gibber.
A GibberFC If Applelink PE were to have online class that would be a good
	   thing.. the
A GibberFC only other alternative (instead of books) would be classes at a
	   university or
A GibberFC a community college... both of which can cost some bucks but are
	   well worth it.
A GibberFC ga
AFL Dyfet  Okay.  GA Jeff.
JeffDavies A good structured language like 'C' or Pascal or even A structured
	   BASIC is goo
JeffDavies good to start with then start branching out when you find yourself
	   limited
JeffDavies done
AFL Dyfet  Okay.  I believe our next question is from Chaos.  GA Chaos.
Chaos 89   Any news on an Assembly lang. course possibly being offered online
	   here?
Chaos 89   There was talk of one a while back.
AFL Dyfet  Anyone here know about this?
AFL Marty  !
AFL Dyfet  GA Marty.
AFL Marty  The subject seems to have been dropped....
AFL Marty  I don't think the folder is even in ATB anymore.
AFL Marty  What a shame 
AFL Marty  done
AFL Dyfet  Okay.  I believe our next question is from Gferg.  GA Gferg.
Gferg      I am interested in programing the GS ... what languages do you
	   recomen ?*)
A GibberFC !
AFL Dyfet  GA Gibber.
A GibberFC For the 2.8 machine..... a good assembler.   however Orca Pascal
	   and C are 
Gferg      I currently program on Big blue in  structured cobol, basic and
	   fortran
A GibberFC great
JeffDavies /
Gferg      ga
AFL Dyfet  / ???
A GibberFC with a transwarp.... anything.... Applesoft ;)
JeffDavies ? my shift doesn't work
A GibberFC ga
AFL Dyfet  Okay.  Anyone else have a recommendation?
SteveSand  !
AFL Dyfet  GA Steve.
AFL Marty  !
SteveSand  I just started & like TML Pascal -- few bugs and relatively
	   easy.
AFL Dyfet  Okay, GA Marty.
Gferg      what makes one language better than another on this machine??
SteveSand  ?
AFL Marty  If anyone here is not yet going to college and will likely take
AFL Marty  the AP exam in computer science, Pascal is probably the one
	   language
AFL Marty  to learn.  Last time I checked, knowledge of Pascal was assumed
AFL Marty  on that exam.
AFL Marty  done
AFL Dyfet  Interesting note.  Okay, I believe the next question is from
	   Parik.  GA Parik.
AFA Parik  TOTALLY irrelevant, but i've been stuck for the past 1/2 hour...
	   !#$*#$!(^@&$%
AFA Parik  Does _UNPACKBYTES work across bank boundries?  yes/no/go away will
	   suffice ga
AFL Dyfet  I believe this came up once before somewhere, and I believe the
	   answer was
AFL Dyfet  that it does not.  Anyone else have a comment?
AFA Gary J Yes, it was in the Let's Discuss area.
AFA Parik  !@(!#*$%*  ok, thanks  :)  done
A GibberFC lol
AFL Marty  You misspelled that Parik.
AFL Dyfet  Must have been frustrating....Um, the next question is from Jeff. 
	   GA Jeff.
AFL Marty  There are two #'s in that word. :)
JeffDavies Does anyone know why when I change the border color from assembly
	   the control
AFA Parik  :P
JeffDavies panel resets to the defult even with the _WriteBParam or with
	   changing the 
AFA Parik  !
JeffDavies location directly/
AFL Dyfet  GA Parik.
JeffDavies done
AFA Parik  The control panel resets all firmware softswitches which are
	   stored in battery
AFA Parik  ram.  _WRITEBParam won't take effect till reboot I'm pretty sure. 
	   The easiest
AFA Parik  thing to do is disable control panel entry (lda #$00 / sta $E01D67
	   in SHORT M
AFA Parik  mode) or just have a routine that intercepts the control panel
	   (vector is in
AFA Parik  the firmware book)  ga
AFL Dyfet  Any other comments?
AFL Dyfet  Okay, the next question is from Steve.  GA Steve.
SteveSand  I'm not so concerned with the language -many will do- but would
	   like to see
JeffDavies thanks Parik
SteveSand  a class on the GS tools. I am confused about the taskmaster - veen
	   though I us
SteveSand  even though I use it.  Is anyone else interested?  If so.. I will
	   start a 
SteveSand  fplder somewhere and we can put together a list of names.
SteveSand  done
AFL Dyfet  I think we're losing people to that event :).  If you would like
	   to start some
AFL Dyfet  sort of class here, perhaps we can setup a time in the conference
	   room and a
AFL Dyfet  folder for it.
AFL Dyfet  Is this what you had in mind, Steve?
SteveSand  Yes.. I guess I have been asking for this for a while & if there
	   were
SteveSand  more of us it might happen.  What event?
AFL Dyfet  I'm not sure, Steve.  I only caught a glimps of the tail end of
	   the worm.  In
AFL Dyfet  any case, if there's enough interest, I would be more than happy
	   to help you
AFL Dyfet  setup a conf. time in here to do this.  We would have to work out
	   a time that
AFL Dyfet  does not conflict with other forums, though.
A GibberFC (got thrown off again :( )
SteveSand  There was enough interest tonite.  Maybe it will fly.
AFL Dyfet  I think a good start would be to put up a folder and see what
	   others think.
A GibberFC Yeah... that is a good idea.... I love the //gs university idea...
	   I would love
SteveSand  I'll do that.
A GibberFC to attend
A GibberFC that one
SteveSand  me too!!!!!
AFL Dyfet  :)
A GibberFC I can't wait to get my hands on a real copy of 5.0 with docs and
	   something
A GibberFC to tell me how to use Expressload...... I want it to be finished
	   now......
AFL Dyfet  Again, we would need to find a timeslot.  Anyone have an Alink
	   Update handy?
A GibberFC ever since seeing it work at 
SteveSand  Yes
AFL Dyfet  Gibber: You can, in theory, expressload any application, as long
	   as it doesn't
A GibberFC Afest with a Transwarp.... geez...4.0 and a transwarp isn't where
	   I want to be
AFL Dyfet  use some of the fancy loader calls.
AFA Gary J ..I've got one handy.
A GibberFC got one what.....A transwarp or system 5.0 hehe
AFA Gary J (AppleLink Update)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I can't find mine.  Either you or Steve see a handy
	   timeslot?
AFA Gary J Hmmm...
A GibberFC ever since I moved I haven't gotten my alink update
A GibberFC whoops.. gots to go... I will see you all later... :)  
AFA Gary J Don't say that, Gibber.  I'm probably going to be moving in a
	   couple of weeks
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J (I still want to get mine.. :)
AFA Parik  :-)  doomed Gary, doomed to not recieving those little pamphlets
AFA Parik  (whats on wed @ 10?)
AFA Parik  ack, bye
AFL Dyfet  Doesn't ACM have something then?
SteveSand  Mine only goes to the end of May -- 11 on Wed May 31?  There is a
	   Mac Dev Conf
AFL Dyfet  We can double time with a Mac conf.  We already do now, Mac
	   education normally'
AFA Gary J Wed at 10:00 ...  yep.. ACM
AFL Dyfet  has a tuesday at 10p conf.
SteveSand  The only other thing at 11:00 on May 31 is a Science Class. 
AFL Dyfet  Hmm...who normally has thur. at 10:00?
AFA Gary J Hmmm.... My Update shows ACM on both Wed and Thur at 10:00 pm!
AFL Dyfet  Well, we can settle on an exact day and time after the initial
	   message.  It
AFL Dyfet  should be sometime about 2 weeks for today for the first one so
	   that there is
AFA Gary J It must have been a fluke on the one week I was looking
	   for...Wednesday at
AFA Gary J 10:00 on the next week only shows a Mac communications forum.
AFL Dyfet  enough lead time for worms.  I suggest a good start is simply to
	   open a folder,
AFL Dyfet  mention the idea, and see both who is interested and what they
	   would expect
AFL Dyfet  out of such a class.
AFL Dyfet  We can finalize the details within the next few days from there.
SteveSand  Event Driven Proramming...Taskmaster...handles.... Quickdraw II
	   and general  
SteveSand  overview of a GS program is what I would like ---- my 2 cents.
AFL Dyfet  Don't tell me, tell them :).
AFA Gary J Steve, the "Apple IIGS Toolbox" topic area has folders on all of
	   those topics.
AFA Gary J Have you looked in there?
SteveSand  I know; but it is all so specific as not to give an overview. 
AFA Gary J Steve, have you seen the book by Eyes and Lichty?
AFA Gary J "Programming the Apple IIGS in Assembly Language"?
AFA Gary J It provides an excellent overview... a sample program step by
	   step with 
AFA Gary J explanations as to what's going on.
SteveSand  No, but I will get it -- Does APDA have it?
AFA Gary J ..uh I think so...  I got mine at B.Daltons.
AFA Gary J Yes, APDA has it.
SteveSand  I appreciate the tip -- I'm doing ok; but, feel a little shakey
	   with this  
SteveSand  event driven programming.
AFA Gary J (Page C-17 of current catalog)
SteveSand  Thanks!!!
AFA Gary J It's an excellent book for that sort of thing. 
AFA Gary J (It deals with the TaskMaster too)
SteveSand  I also appreciate all the specific help I'm getting in the Let's
	   Discus Sect.
AFA Gary J I think it would be a good textbook for the sort of class you are
	   talking about
AFA Gary J , and would provide a good topic for discussion.
SteveSand  Things are going much faster since I went online. One last
	   question......
AFA Gary J (assuming the language you'd want to learn is assembly...)