917 lines
37 KiB
Plaintext
917 lines
37 KiB
Plaintext
SUBJECT: COMPUSERVE CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT CONT. FILE: UFO3222
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(Ted) Ok let's get started. Does anyone have an opening
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remark? ga
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(DBC) Yes, I just saw a piece on CNN news about the
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sightings) in VA over the last several months. Its
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seems they had some sort of conference with dan
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gordon complaining about lack of big media
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coverage. ga
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(Ted) Anyone else see the CNN coverage also DBC when was
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it on today? GA
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(DBC) yes, just about an hour ago.ga
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(Ted) It seems, that Dan Gordon could supply Drax with
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fodder for his JFORUM controversy. GA
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(DRAX) I mentioned the Wytheville thing in the original
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message on JFORUM. You saw the reaction. "Ho-hum."
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GA
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(Ted) Yes, perhaps now you could get some support. ga
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(DRAX) Care to place a wager? Ha!
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(MJ-C) Hi,could everyone identify himself/herself, so we
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can know to whom we are talking. The list of
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users is not of much help. Thanks.
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(Dale) hahahaha, I tried that Marge. No you can't
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(Ted) Ok, one more time... I'm Ted Markley. Others GA
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(DRAX) Jim Speiser
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(Joe) Joe Reichardt
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(DON) Don Ecker
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(Gerry) There is a directory function where people have
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left short descriptions of themselves.
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(Gerry) I'm Gerry Zeitlin
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(Ted) Ok, I guess thats all that care to reveal. Marge
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if you would hit a CR after about 60 characters or
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so you don't go off the screen. GA
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(DRAX) Yes, but its optional, and sometimes doesnt match
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with CO handles. GA
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(Gerry) Can it be searched for user id?
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(DRAX) Yes
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(MJ-C) ?Thanks! I appreciate it. How do I get to the
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directory function?
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(Ted) Marge, In the main menu there is a member
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directory entry try that GA.
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(Ted) There have been some new developments last week
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one or two DRAX has up loaded also I have heard
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rumors that Gulf Breezes is falling under
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question. Any comments? GA
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(MJ-C) Yes, I remembered ALT-S. Both Bob Boyd and Dr.
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Willy Smith have some doubts about Gulf Breeze
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case now Bob Boyd has compiled a 19-pt. letter
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stating his problems with the case. Dan Wright
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has a copy. Bruce Maccabee is analyzing film from
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there and will speak on the photoanalysis at MUFON
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Symposium in Nebraska. Gulf Breeze witnesses will
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be at Neb. Am I doing this correctly or should I
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wait to be recognized to type message?
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(Ted) Ok, just a reminder to those new to our CO. We
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operate under formal rules. If you want to ask a
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question or make a comment type a "?" or a "!" and
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I will take down you name and put you in queue.
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(DRAX) OK, Ted. Just wanted to ask if CNN had anything on
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Gulf Breeze, and also Marge, you might want to
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quickly identify those names for people who are
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unfamiliar to the field (but do it in queue so as
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not to confuse people). GA
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(DON) Ok, a quick one, is there anyway to get a copy, of
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the local Fla. broadcast of the Gulf Breeze news
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tape? ga
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(Ted) Can any one answer That? GA
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(DRAX) John Lear was sent a copy FedEx, I can ask him how
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he got it. GA
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(Ted) Good. Do that GA
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(DON) I tried to call Lear, no answer is he out flying?
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ga
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(Ted) Drax can you comment? I've gotten busy also. GA
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(DRAX) He may be. Try later. GA
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(DON) thanks..
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(Ted) Marge perhaps you could fill us in on some of the
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names you dropped earlier. GA
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(MJ-C) Dan Wright is MUFON's Dir. of Investigations; Dr.
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Willy Smith is a physicist in Florida and he runs
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a computer program called UNICAT with the most
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credible cases. Bruce Maccabee is an optical
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physicist whose specialty is photoanalysis. Hope
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this helps to fill you in on names I mentioned.
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(Dale) Can anyone supply me with some paperwork on the
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proper way to handle an F.O.I.A. request??
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(DRAX) Dale, do you get the International UFO Reporter
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from CUFOS? There was an article by Don Schmitt, I
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believe, which went through the groundrules. I can
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send it to you if you want. GA
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(Dale) OH. I must have it around here, but missed the
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article will let you know. Thanks. GA
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(MJ-C) I Suggest that you contact Barry Greenwood of
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CAUS,(MJ-C) at Mass MUFON,. P.O. Box 176,
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Stoneham, MA 02180
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(Ted) Marge, can you tell us a little about UNICAT ?GA
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(MJ-C) I am not exactly certain of the status of UNICAT
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at present time. at one time it had 400 cases,
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and Willy Smith had a form with criteria and
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information he required for listing a case there./
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If you'd like I can furnish his address., but
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would prefer to mail it to you rather than to put
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it on computer.
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(MJ-C) Ted, I got your EMail. thanks! I put a notice in
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this month's MUFON Newsletter asking for persons
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with modems to join in this ISSUES forum on
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Sundays.
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(Dale) Thanks Marge.ga
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(Ted) Great, I think there would be a lot of mutual
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benefit to ISSUES and MUFON to cooperate. OkGA
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(MJ-C) Are you aware of the recent letter sent by Richard
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Doty to Barry Greenwood of CAUS in which he
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reverses his stand on the Kirtland AFB sightings
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from OSI document, 1980? ga
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(Ted) No, Tell us more. GA
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(MJ-C) Doty authored the documents which detail 5
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overflights of UFOs (disc-shaped in one case) over
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Manzano Weapons Storage Area at Kirtland AFB in
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summer of 1980/ He also met with Peter Gersten
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(NY attorney of CAUS) and Linda Howe at that time
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and told them more about the sightings. He now is
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denying that he said the things they claim that he
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said, and cites official AF policy, and asks that
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no one contact him again. The letter will be
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published in the next issue of JUST CAUS (CAUS=
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citizens against UFO Secrecy).
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(DON) Ok Drax, two questions for you. First is there any
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more information on the Texarkana case, and the
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most recent msgs that you sent to our board in
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Boise concerned Gulf Breeze and two agents of some
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kind bearing a warrant to seize info. Ok, do you
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or anyone know who they were, and what kind of
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warrant was it, and issued by whom? Fed, local
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etc. and were they genuine? ga
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(DRAX) OK, On Texarkana, no new information that I've
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gotten, except a possible correlation with another
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case just being reported by Washington State MUFON
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(Don Johnson), a pilot reported seeing a "box-
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shaped" UFO near Edwards AFB. Some of the Tex
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witnesses reported a similar sounding craft. As to
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the warrants, I only mentioned that the main
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witness reported having two guys in civvies come
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to his door and wave a "Material Seizure Warrant"
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at him to confiscate the photos and camera. He did
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not turn them over. I know nothing beyond that.
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Don;t know if it or they were genuine or not. GA
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(DON) Ok, in some corners this has the appearance of a
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classic beginning of possible "MIB" interference.
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do you know if there were any other attempts to
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gather info, or breakins, etc, and was the witness
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threatened? Did he report to the local law
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enforcement? ga
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(DRAX) Alas, Don, you're asking for details I'm just not
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privy to. This whole schmear is unfolding as we
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speak, and its hard to get a handle on just what
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is happening or has happened, especially since
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most of what we have heard on this side of the
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country is second or third hand. The details are
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going to spill out, they will just take some time.
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GA
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(Dale) I'd like to switch topics a second. Marge, has
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MUFFON, in Texas, had any problems over the JMP
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letter stating that people would write to Andrus?
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And, received any letters? on this hoax document.
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ga
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(MJ-C) Gulf Breeze newspaper reports two uniformed AF
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investigators visited one of the anonymous
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photographers and demanded the photographs. He did
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not have them to turn over. No, M<UFON in Texas
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has not had any problems that I know of over the
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JMP letter, but Walt Andrus is putting a notice in
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the Journal stating that MUFON is not in any way
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involved with that group, nor will we accept any
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mail for them. Speaking of MIBs, MIchigan MUFON is
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reporting several incidents involving some sort of
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surveillance, including black unmarked helicopters
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over homes of witnesses; investigators' mail being
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sloppily opened and resealed with scotch tape and
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telephones being tapped. Dan Wright has put a
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note of warning to all State Directors in his
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latest newslett er to indicate if they have
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sealed and reopened letters. Is Big Brother
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Watching, or are we just getting paranoid? ga
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(DBC) Marge, what part of MI are these things happening?
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I'm in MI and have heard nothing. I have, however,
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waking in the night a few times by what sounded
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like a helicopter. (Prob. no connection>) ga
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(MJ-C) They are mostly in the Lansing area and in
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Flushing.) ga
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(Dale) I was just wondering if everyone knew that if you
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make a phone call and it is done through the
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satellite, that the NSA makes transcripts and then
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goes through it for buzz words.ga
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(DRAX) They must be having a field day with THIS
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conversation, then!
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(DON) does ma bell know?
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(Ted) Yes. I have heard that also. So you better watch
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out, you better not try. GA
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(Gerry) Also have some thoughts about this buzzword
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monitoring. I'm sure they do it, but I also know
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the technology for speech recognition is still
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pretty primitive except perhaps at NSA but
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actually it is difficult for machines to recognize
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words unless they are trained to recognize them
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when spoken by specific speakers.ga
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(DRAX) Its my understanding that the NSA is about five
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years ahead of the rest of the world in computer
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technology also, my gosh, the Sharper Image offers
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telephones with speech recognition capabilities,
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that don't require training! GA
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(MJ-C) I have been told about the NSA monitoring phone
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calls by satellite. Someone from A T & T told me
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that. Also, all overseas calls are recorded by
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NSA. I also have reports of strange happenings on
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calls to Indiana from Michigan. ga
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(Ted) What kind of happenings? GA
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(MJ-C) Michigan investigators called Indiana from a home
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of a friend and got the same phone interference he
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got when calling that investigator at his Michigan
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home from the caller's Michigan home. ga
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(Gerry) Have to agree with the replies to my comment. I
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guess I should have thought it through more
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carefully.ga
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(DON) Ok, this phone interference phenomena is an old
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story in ufology, it go's back over 30 years, and
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Keel addressed it in several of his books rather
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well. So it would appear that whoever is doing it
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has had the tech. for quite a while. ga
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(Dale) I was just going to say that I don't think that
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there is anyone here who hasn't had to send
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something 2 to 3 times in the mail for it to get
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where it was suppose to go and has anybody that
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you know of ever filed with NSA for FOIA request
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on whether they had a file with your name on it,
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or are they exempt, since we don't even know what
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their charter says. ga
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(Dale) NSA = National Security Agency
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(Ted) I don't think you apply to the NSA for FOIA
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information.
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(DRAX) Just wanted to know if anyone had any thoughts on
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APRO finally calling it quits. Did you know about
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that, Marge? GA
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(Ted) I think it is a shame. Someone should pick up the
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ball (torch) and carry it on. I nominate DRAX!!!!
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GA
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(DRAX) I will not seek, nor will I accept........GA
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(Dale) Jim, When did this happen? Can I keep my ID card
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(New Director of APRO) and it is scarry to think
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that there is only 1 real civilian organization
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left.ga
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(DRAX) According to Tom Mickus of ParaNet Pi in Toronto a
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letter was sent out by an APRO underling whose
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name escapes me saying that Coral is just in such
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poor shape that she cannot continue publishing,
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and the membership is dwindling steadily. The
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letter ended "Goodbye for APRO." Sad, after 36
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years. GA
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(Dale) By civilian, I meant that MUFON, I believe is the
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only organ that allows a low life like me to bee a
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State Section Director I don't believe CUFO's does
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this.ga
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(MJ-C) NSA is not exempt under the FOIA. We have NSA
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documents. I didn't know about APRO. Sad! Jim,
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should we go to ask Coral to donate the files to
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the U of A? I doubt if she would let MUFON have
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them, but there must be a wealth of case info.
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there.
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(Ted) Perhaps Phil Klass would like the files eh? GA
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(MJ-C) Also, DRAX, did you know that John Timmerman is
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going to be in Phoenix on May 14 with the CUFOS
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photo exhibit? ga
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(DRAX) Yes, Dale called and told me GA
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(DRAX) I didn't know the photo exhibit would be there
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too, though I think we would have to pry the files
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from Coral's cold fingers. But t'would be nice to
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give them to U of A (or maybe Barry? Ha!) GA
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(Ted) I was only joking about Phil Kl Ass. GA
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(Dale) I like your spelling Ted
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(DRAX) I HOPE so! Ha!
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(MJ-C) I am going to have to leave you guys to go to an
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MJ-? meeting. Is ther3e anything else I can
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answer for you? Sorry to have to call it quits.
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Duty calls. ga
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(Dale) I can't believe I spent $18.95 for Kl ass's new
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book of which most is old stuff...who profits from
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UFO's? the Pro's or the anti's? I measured the
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book its less than an inch thick.ga
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(Ted) Marge, I hope you will Log on soon and pick up you
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email. I wish you a Good Evening. Nite MArge! GA
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(DRAX) APRO underling = Robert G. Marsland. Night Marge
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(MJ-C) I will, and in June, we are going to have several
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prominent UFOlogists here, incl. Mike Swords,
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Barry Greenwood, Walt Webb, Budd Hopkins, and so
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we will arrange to log on that Sunday and have a
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great conference. Nite all! ga
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(DRAX) <Ahem>
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(Ted) Nite marge. <GO DRAX>
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(DBC) nite marge
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(Dale) Geraldo Drax Rivera?
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(DRAX) No, just kidding.
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(DRAX) I gotta go too. Bowling time. See y'all!
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(Ted) Hookem good Drax! GA
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(DRAX) /OUTTAHERE
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(Ted) <drax has a chic waiting I'll Bet> GA
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(Dale) Bowling, not Balling.
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(DBC) This is probably totally coincidental but I
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noticed on the last couple of COs there have been
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2 to 3 users (SIG, monitoring? or handles) showing
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a node DCE which is Arlington VA...Isn't that CIA
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headquarters and where is NSA?ga
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(Ted) AH HA. The SOURCE is located in Arlington VA,
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Those Thieves!!!! <ga don>
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(DON) Ok, I've read from dl last year on one co. that
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Phil Kl ass had his "people monitor this ch. so if
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various reports are correct that our govt. takes
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this subj. seriously, do you really think that
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they would not have a vested interest in
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monitoring this forum. no, I didn't think so. I
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guess it really is past 1984, eh?? ga
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(Gerry) NSA is at Ft. Meade, MD. You have to assume that
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this conference is in the open. But why get
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paranoid about it?. Anyway, NSA is very large and
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I would expect there to be interested folks there
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just as anywhere else.ga
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(Ted) Ok. You know anyone of us might be associated with
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NSA. Perhaps... But no! GA
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(Dale) If you want to know about the NSA, read "The
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Puzzle Palace" by John Bamford...Also, Klass does
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have spies in the wings they send all my local
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stuff to Klass from Free-Net in Cleveland lastly,
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my sister in law worked for NSA, and they have
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orders after they are out to report anyone that
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tries to talk to them about their activities up to
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5 years after separation.ga
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(Ted) Ok. Mike welcome. Just a reminder to those new to
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our CO. We operate under formal rules. If you
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want to ask a question or make a comment type a
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"?" or a "!" and I will take down you name and put
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you in queue.
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(DBC) speaking of sensitive issues, anyone know anything
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new about the ontario triangle? Did Neil P get
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scared off by someone loading last week's CO in
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DL10? Ted did you speak to him by phone? also has
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anyone found the map????!!!!ga
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(Ted) Ok. Yes I spoke to Neil Yesterday. HE said he.
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could not be with us tonight but would be back
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nest week. I asked Neil to prepare a White Paper
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similar to the one prepared by John Lear. I asked
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that he be sure to include VERIFIABLE facts such
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that we may investigate and be prepared to ask
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more meanful questions.GA
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(DON) Earlier we were talking about paranoia in the
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connection with the govet or NSA. it is not a case
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of paranoia, but everyone should be aware that the
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govt takes these cases much more seriously than
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they let on. ga
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(Randy P) Yes...I reviewed Publications of the U. S.
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Geological Survey, 1971-1981, and cannot locate
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any citations which would relate to Neil Palumbo's
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case. I have not done a full DIALOG search but
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did establish that an Aerogmagnetic Map of
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Westernmost New York is contained in the USG (open
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file) OF 75-0028, and an in depth seismic survey
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consisting of high-resolution seismic reflection
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profiles and sediment samples from Western Lake
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Ontario is contained in OF 80-0550. I cannot find
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any evidence which would corroborate Neil's
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claims, however. I will mention that the classic
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book in this area is Ivan Sanderson's Invisible
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Residents, which mentions sightings like Neil's in
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the same area. ga...
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(Ted) Thanks Randy. That was a nice piece of
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investigative work. I hope you can return next
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week when (if) Neil returns.
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(Randy P) I have an upload which goes into further depth
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which I will put up later...ga
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(Ted) Mike did you want to make a comment? GA
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(MIKE) Not aware of all you're talking about
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(Ted) Mike - ok, just sit back and listen (read) we're
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talking about UFOs and related issues. <ga>
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(Gerry) Ok. I spoke to a friend at Ames who suggested
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that the area would be better covered by LANDSAT,
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not SEASAT and that NASA was forced to divest of
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the distribution of these photos but that if I
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would tell her the coordinates and times needed,
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she would tell me which photos to get and how to
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get them. I sent email to Neil about this but he
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did not reply.ga
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(Ted) Neil doesn't get on too often. BTW did you all
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know that you can see who has been in the ISSUES
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forum (or any other for that matter) by typing "u"
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at most "!" prompts? <GA>
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(Randy P) Thanks...anyone can obtain the satellite
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images...I have an upload which goes into some
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depth on how to get these, including the reference
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numbers for all the LANDSAT catalogs for use in
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any university library which is a Congressionally
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designated Government Depository Library. From
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Neil's description, I believe he has a LANDSAT
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image (originally ERTS). In order to validate the
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in water image he believes he is seeing, it would
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be necessary to look at several loops from the
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bird...each locale in the U. S. is imaged once
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every 18 hours in four spectral bands. ga...
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(Ted) Please upload you're file into the DL10 Database.
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GA
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(Gerry) I'm not surprised to hear how available these
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images are. Actually I was wondering exactly what
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I had volunteered to do. Decided it was just to
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open a dialog with an interested person at Ames.
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And I did get a suggestion as to a non-paranormal
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explanation. Mind you I'm not by nature a
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"debunker" in the worst sense of the term. But I
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was told that zooplancton could be responsible for
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what Neil saw. They form quite large formations
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and local currents can make them be repeatable
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over long periods of time. ga
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(Randy P) I don't doubt that Neil has seen strange things
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entering and leaving the lake...as this is well
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documented and has been going on up there for
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several years. However, I doubt that he is seeing
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a structure in the satellite image. Normally,
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perfectly clear water would appear black in the
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false colored composite image made from the four
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spectral images. One needs to view the black-and-
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white individual shots from each spectral band.
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ga...
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(Ted) When I spoke to Neil I asked him if perhaps he was
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seeing planes disappearing in the horizon at
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night. He said he didn't believe that was so.
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Then I ask how BIG were these things (expecting to
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get points of light) he said "about the size of a
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quarter at arms length." FOr what its worth that
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is it. he also claims top be using "color" IR
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Kodak film. Now I don't know too much about IR
|
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film but IR is just another wavelenght as are
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colors. (Unless there is some Pseudo colorization
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technique. ANy comments? GA
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(Randy P) He may be using color film with an IR filter...but
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the size he describes for the lights he is seeing
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doesn't agree with some of the sightings over the
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Great Lakes which Sanderson, et. al. have
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documented over the years. I am fairly familar
|
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with photoimagery, and have never heard of a color
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IR film. ga
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(Ted) Neil claims that the film he is using is KODAK IR
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35 mm film. (Not color film with an IR filter.)
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We use IR film in some of the products that are
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manufactured at my company. (We use an IR laser
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diode) I have asked our chemist/film people to
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contact Kodak for more info....
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(Ted) By the way, I hope all of you have, or get, the
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opportunity to read. my message board on
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"QUESTIONNAIRE" it is suggesting a "brain trust"
|
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if you will of ISSUES members. GA
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(DON) Ivan Sanderson, and the book he wrote "Invisible
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Residents?" I am not familar with it, could you
|
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discuss what the subject covers? ga
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(Randy P) The book Invisible Residents is by a fairly
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legitimate scientific type (Ivan Sanderson), so
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should be available in many libraries. It is
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probably the classic work on sightings of unusual
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"vehicles" entering and leaving bodies of water.
|
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The book also covers many other types of sightings
|
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of "balls of light", dissappearance of crews of
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ships, and other odd happenings over water. I
|
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believe it was the first place where I saw any
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theories of "vortices", and its chapters 10 and 11
|
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are a classic reference on this subject as well.
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I recommend it to anyone interested in getting
|
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some background on what Neil Palumbo is talking
|
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about. I'm going to have to check out in a
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while, but will do the upload later.
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thanks....ga...
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(DON) Ok, and thank you randy.
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(Ted) Randy, thanks for coming by tonight. we all
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enjoyed the data and interpretations of same that
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you have provided see you next week and (I hope)
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on the message board. Nit Randy! GA
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(Randy P) nite...
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(Joe) bye, Randy
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(Dale) Bye Randy. As a side note, if anyone is looking
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for books, etc. and I know it is difficult. I
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have over 1000 books and about 6000 newsletters
|
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and magazines. If you have a request for a book or
|
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copies of material leave me mail.ga
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(Ted) Thanks dale that is mighty generous of you. We
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will all be wanting library cards to the Wedge
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Foundation. GA
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(Gerry) I know it's getting late but I did wonder if
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anyone had read the file on "1st Earth Battalion"
|
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which is in the veterans' forum and if anyone has
|
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any thoughts about it.ga
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(Ted) Gerry. Which dl is it in and what is th eactual
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name of the forum? ga
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(DON) Vetsig
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(Gerry) standby and I'll ... right, vetsig ... but
|
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standby... it's vetsig/dl7/earth.1st and it refers
|
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to a unit of "warrior monks" of the US Army which
|
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was trained in psychic warfare and which has just
|
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been disbanded.ga
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(DON) Where is John Lear when we need him?
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(Ted) We'll) look it up.
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(MIKE) Speaking of Lear. Has anybody heard of video
|
|
release to press yet ALA Lear.txt?
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(Ted) No. Mike do you have reason to believe there is
|
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one? GA
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(MIKE) I thought he mentioned a tape to be released in
|
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March?!
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(Ted) Ok, he mentioned a tape that he had which was just
|
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a collection of previously released stuff.) Also
|
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he claimed that there would be a "Big
|
|
Announcement" soon but didn't get specific. GA
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(Joe) Where can I get a list of BBS's that cover UFO
|
|
material? GA
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(Ted) Ok, I can't give you a list but a good bet is to
|
|
get a list of PARANET BBS. Jim SPeiser (DRAX) is
|
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the chief honcho of ParaNet. ANd it is based in
|
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Pheonix. Send me EMAIL and I'll give you some info
|
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on it. GA
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(Joe) Thank, will do. ga
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(Dale) I forgot...oh yees... I think Lear was talking
|
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about the Moore release...by the way on WBZ 1030
|
|
AM, right now, they are talking about the
|
|
Whytheville incident. they are trying to get the
|
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people on the line. ga
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(Ted) Let'm call us!!! <DON you're next GA>
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(DON) Ok, I was going to refer Joe to Jim's Paranet bbs,
|
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but you beat me to it however I do have a list
|
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here, called the Pagan bbs. ga
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(Ted) Ok, Don give it to us!!! GA
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(Ted) WAIT!!! Better yet why don't you send it to me
|
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EMAIL and I'll get it into the DL10. GA
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(DON) Sure, my pleasure!!
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(Joe) Thanks Don. ga
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(Ted) Ok..
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(Ted) I was going to say earlier that sometime in May
|
|
there will be new forum software and when that
|
|
occurs we will have our own Conference room for
|
|
use during non-Sunday times. Just for us Guys
|
|
(and Gals). To try out the new software type GO
|
|
PRACTICE at any "!" prompt.
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(Dale) Hope your listening to 1030 they are calling. No
|
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answer
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(Ted) 1030 doesn't make it to NJ sorry GA
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(DON) Idaho either!
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(Dale) Crip...It's Boston....and I'm in Cleveland.
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(Ted) Dale, who is calling? GA
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(Dale) Don't know his name...have to listen but the
|
|
number is 617-254-5678
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(Ted) My phone is busy right now! GA
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(Dale) Call him later Ted, he'll be on a couple hours.
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(DON) Well since I can't get that station. I've been
|
|
wondering for months. DBC in ANN, what does DBC
|
|
stand for, and where is ANN? grin ga
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(Ted) DBC stands for Don't Be Curious! GA
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(DBC) Don, it stands for DB Closet-UFO-enthusiast.ga
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(DBC) will let you know by Email.ga
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(DON) Ah, now we know. who Phil's contact is!!!! GRIN
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(Ted) Folks. It is getting late and I'm am going to have
|
|
to check out <need to prepare my NSA report to
|
|
Phil Kl ass> GA
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(Dale) Ted, call that number 617-254-5678 and go over the
|
|
sighting will record and send it to you. ga
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(Ted) Sorry dale I missed that? GA
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(Dale) I said...call 617-254-56788. I'll tape it and send
|
|
it to you.ga
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(Ted) What will I hear? Or will I be on a Boston talk
|
|
show? GA
|
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(Dale) Yes...You'll be on WBZ-radio 1030 AM and be on a
|
|
Boston talk show. he just mentioned Don Gordon,
|
|
but the station must not be answering after
|
|
hours.ga
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(Ted) Ok I'll give it a try. (but only for a couple of
|
|
minutes.) Nite all ....
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