2621 lines
102 KiB
Plaintext
2621 lines
102 KiB
Plaintext
SUBJECT: MORE ON CROP CIRCLES FILE: UFO3206
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PART 1
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CIS THREAD(S) FOLLOWING
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SEPT. 22 UPLOAD OF CIRCLE.TXT.
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(Right margin adjusted for viewing utilities and
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loading by most word processors, text-with-line-breaks.)
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(As of this date There were 52 downloads of this file from
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ISSUES/PARANORMAL Lib. 10, uploaded Sept. 22, 1991).
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------------------------
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#: 45583 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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23-Sep-91 21:16:53
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Sb: #45328-#Crop circles
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Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
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To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335 (X)
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There is a substantial thread on crop circles which has been
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uploaded to Issues, Sec 10, Paranormal. It was taken from
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the Science and Health Forum of the WGA-BBS, a members-only
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BBS for the Writers Guild of America (television and
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screenwriters). I was part of this discussion, which
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develops some surprising but (for me) very satisfying
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explanations. The messages were uploaded on Compuserve
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partly in hope that those with greater expertise in the
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matters that are discussed -- millimeter and sub-millimeter
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lasers, masers, the physical effects of ionized gases, etc
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- would provide commentary.
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There is 1 Reply.
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#:
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17555 S3/General
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30-Sep-91 05:47:24
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Sb: #17344-Controversial new file
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Fm: stuart lees 75300,247
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To: Trevor Prinn (UK) 100016,2726
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I'm inclined to agree with you about the hoaxers - they seem
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to have been very quiet about their exploits since the
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initial claims.
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There are a lot of unanswered questions about the circles,
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and every explanation only seems to emphasise how little
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anyone knows about them. I think the explanation for the
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braiding given in circle.txt was to do with the maser
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spinning as it was emitted...that doesnt explain the stalks
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being bent at the same height though, does it. I must admit,
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I find the maser idea a bit improbable - there have got to
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be better test sites than Wiltshire - but then the whole
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thing is improbable.
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Have you seen any of these circles yourself Trevor?
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-Stuart
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#: 45683 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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29-Sep-91 00:21:36
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Sb: #45675-CIRCLE.TXT
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Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
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To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
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Since the thread that Sabaroff uploaded as CIRCLE.TXT, there
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have been several more small indications that the thesis may
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be correct. In NATURE last week is an article called
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"Measurement of atmospheric wavefront distortion using
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scattered light from a laser guide-star", which is based on
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US Dept of Defense work that began secretly in 1981, and was
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declassified in May of this year. So it is clear that the
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gov't has indeed been working within the general realm of
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lasers and the atmos-/meso-sphere.
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Also it has been discovered that the Dave/Doug hoaxster
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confession was arranged by a "news agency" that receives
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mail through its accountants, and does not have a telephone.
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Dave and Doug were asked point-blank on a talk show if they
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had ever been employed by a governmental intelligence
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agency, but they refused to answer, and chose to laugh the
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question off.
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(I should point out that I was a participant in the
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CIRCLE.TXT thread, and that I, too, am anxious for comment
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or response from those most knowledgeable in the fields
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under discussion. In point of fact, I would be happier if
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our conclusions were entirely incorrect, and the circles
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were the result of hoaxes, or whirlwinds.)
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#: 45697 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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29-Sep-91 23:23:38
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Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
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Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
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To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)
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Michael, needless to say I was delighted by the disclosures
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regarding DOUG/DAVE. We should bring them to L.A. and make
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them producers.
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On our WGA BBS, as you know, we also have a News and Current
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events forum. There were some things in President Bush's
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recent speech regarding radical reductions in offensive
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nuclear capabilities, and the centralization of reduced
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stockpiles, *and the diversion of large portions of the
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spared budget to B2 and SDI research* which I found
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startling, to say the least. Since much of our CIRCLE.TXT
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thread attributes (some) of the crop formations (calling
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them simply "circles" now seems simplistic) to SDI connected
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maser/laser experiments, some things make more sense. The
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press has tended to discredit the concept of SDI as do most
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scientists, yet if we call it EARTH WARS instead of STAR
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WARS it makes more sense.
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Bush called for retention of retaliatory systems, such as
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submarine based weapons, and the clustering of fixed site
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silos - reduced to single warhead missiles. Admirable, but
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inconceivable unless we had something else to back it up.
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A missile's greatest enemy is Electromagnetic Pulse Effect
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(EMP), something that microwave energy generates in enormous
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quantities. I suspect when we talk about "hardening" silos
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(or used to), the hardening referred to EMP, not structural
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integrity. This would suggest another credible function for
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space borne maser technology - and submarines would be
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shielded and cloaked from it. Am I looking too hard for a
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positive side to all this...?
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Bob
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There is 1 Reply.
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#: 45698 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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30-Sep-91 01:58:08
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Sb: #45697-#CIRCLE.TXT
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Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265
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To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
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You've got it a bit wrong. EMP is *not* produced by
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microwave emission. You can induce a phenomena that is
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similiar, but much reduced in magnitude. This assumes that
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you have lots of rust, aluminium oxide, and conductors of a
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wavelength appropriate to the frequency. Otherwise it all
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gets dissipated as heat. Not very much heat, at that.
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Now, hardening *did* factor in EMP, but it also factored in
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blast effect, radiation hardness, and so on. EMP is by
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necessity a low frequency phenomenon - on the order of a few
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10's of hertz at best - and mostly a DC voltage field at
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that. The EMP test sites are the worlds largest ELF
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generators. (ELF = Extremely Low Frequency - 10khz and
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below.)
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Tom G.
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There is 1 Reply.
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#: 45702 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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30-Sep-91 06:16:37
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Sb: #45698-#CIRCLE.TXT
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Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
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To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X)
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Tom, thanks for the clarification regarding the
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microwave/EMP relationship. It's equally useful to know that
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our logical processes have led us to an incorrect
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association, as it is to be confirmed. Perhaps more so, and
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your obvious expertise is much appreciated. We want to get
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it right. Responses like yours are welcome because their
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corrections lead to rethought questions. Could a very
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strong maser in any way affect the guidance and/or control
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systems of a missile as it leaves it's silo? And, if you
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know, what range of frequencies are considered to fall
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within the spectrum known as "microwave?"
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It is also my understanding that a nuclear detonation above
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ground would itself generate enough particle energy to
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affect communications and other electronic systems, and that
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such an event occured in the Pacific some years ago and
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wasn't much publicized. Are you aware of (that you can
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discuss) any spectra of radiation other than light or
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"microwave" which can be generated as coherent energy in a
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way similar to the maser/laser technology?
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Bob
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#: 45716 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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30-Sep-91 17:35:59
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Sb: #circle.txt
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Fm: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312
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To: 71251,2445 (X)
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Bob,
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One thing that would be of great interest regarding SDI
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hypothesis would be the aspect of the ellipses (you as well
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as others noted that they are not circles). If beams struck
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from geosynchonous orbit, they would all have the same
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aspect - assuming the same platform. However, I don't know
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that SDI satellites would be geosynchronous. Certainly
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kinetic devices wouldn't be put out that far because of
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transit time. Beam weapons would have to deal with spread
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and hence attenuation over that distance.
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Be that as it may, the aspect ratio and orientation would be
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very interesting. Of course, I am assuming our jokers are
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using circular 'stencils'. If the originating platform is
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deliberately firing ellipses, all bets are off.
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Jon Brunson 76477,1312
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There is 1 Reply.
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#: 45717 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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30-Sep-91 17:48:08
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Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
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Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
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To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
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Having just finished reading the recently uploaded
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CIRCLE.TXT discussion, I wanted to commend you (as the
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leading provocateur of the discussion) for what is by far
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the most innovative and thoughtful analysis of the phenomena
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I have yet encountered. Never before came across a BBS
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thread that made for such a compelling read!
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Not being of a conspiratorial bent, I am struggling mightily
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with your hypothesis that our defense establishment (or a
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small "black area" therein) would deliberately utilize the
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ancient circle legends of Wiltshire (a subject of rather
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remarkable obscurity until recently!) to disguise the ground
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effect of their maser/laser (or whatever) SDI tests. If you
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are correct that these are artifacts of SDI testing, would
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it not be safe to assume that *every* possible safeguard
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would be taken to insure the secrecy of the results? If so,
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it would seemingly require monumental courage and
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presumptiousness for an SDI project manager to conclude that
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the best of all possible testing alternatives would be a
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public display on the plains of Wiltshire. Would that our
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defense bureaucrats had that kind of imagination and guts!
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Another point; you mentioned that the technology necessary
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to create these patterns was, in part at least, probably
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made possible through the development of relatively high
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temperature superconducters. However, did not the circle
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phenomena develop in the early 80's, before these
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breakthroughs occurred? Seems to me that the *real*
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technological breakthrough was made at the time the first
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circles were created in the early 80's. The developments in
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the circle patterns since the early days reflect a
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relatively slow and plodding developmental pace (fairly
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modest variations on a theme) considering the magnitude of
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the original breakthrough (that would allow a circle to be
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created in the first place. [continued in the reply]
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There are 2 Replies.
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#: 45718 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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30-Sep-91 17:48:12
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Sb: #45717-#CIRCLE.TXT
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Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
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To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)
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[continued]
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Anyway, keep up the good work in prodding people to do some
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analytical thinking about one of the more intriguing
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mysteries of our time.
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There is 1 Reply.
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#: 45726 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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30-Sep-91 20:38:46
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Sb: #45718-CIRCLE.TXT
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Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
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To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)
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In the most recent issue of Nature is an article based on
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research and testing done by the Dept of Defense, starting
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in 1981, of ground to air laser imaging. As I make out, they
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were creating pin-points -- for use as artificial star-
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guides -- at a height of ten miles. This is spectacular
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lack of beam attenuation.
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The authors note that this work has continued since 1981,
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but was de-classified (to a degree) in May of this year. So
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we know now that related work was going on, in the time
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frame under discussion.
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#: 45727 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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30-Sep-91 23:39:06
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Sb: #45702-#CIRCLE.TXT
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Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265
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To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
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I should give some clarifications to my answer, first of all
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- it was rather late, and I was briefer in my reply than I
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meant to be. Large, (by large I mean gigawatts) transmitters
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can affect the guidance system of a missile by means of
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electromagnetic coupling. You can see this effect in a more
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limited fashion (and with a slightly different pathway) in
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your television set, when the next door ham beams a kilowatt
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down your TV antenna. Most of the energy is dissipated as
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heat in the receiving antenna, but a couple of volts of RF
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will still be coupled into the set. A simple filter will
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prevent this from being a problem - the energy gets
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dissipated as heat in the filter.
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Heating effects of a magnitude to severly disrupt a missile
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are by no means certain. You *can* potentially swamp a
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sensor with the coupled energy. Simple screening would take
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care of that. We do it all of the time. (Look at the door of
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your microwave oven for an example.)
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The most promising beam weapons are the neutral particle
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beam and the laser - either X-Ray, IR, or gamma. No one has
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produced a gamma ray laser yet, and we don't have a clue
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about how to do it, but it *is* theoretically possible.
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Masers are non-starters - they're bloody fussy beasts. You
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could use them in theory, but not in practice.
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The test you are refering to is Dominic Starfish Prime. This
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test was designed to test the effects of high-altitude burst
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on radio communications and radar, and not coincidentally,
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to test the long range effects of EMP. These effects were
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first noticed during a then secret three-shot high altitude
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test in the South Atlantic - the Argus series - sometime in
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1958. Three more high-altitude bursts took place in the
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Dominic series, but only one had sufficient size to have
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anything more than negligble effect. The earliest reference
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in the open literature that I have is in the 1964 edition of
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"The Effects of Nuclear Weapons". By the Third edition <
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Cont'd >
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There are 2 Replies.
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#: 45728 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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30-Sep-91 23:41:13
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Sb: #45716-#circle.txt
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Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
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To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 (X)
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Jon, the ellipses might be accounted for either by very
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slight drift of the stationary beam source, or by angle of
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incidence if it were slightly off a perpendicular with the
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target below. Considering the physical dimensions of most
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of the formations, and presuming a width of less than a
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centimeter for the point of emission, that's well within the
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paramaters of experiments already conducted here. From
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25,000 miles - the altitude of a geosynchronous orbiter, the
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width of the formations is not contra-indicated by published
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test results *in the atmosphere.*. From overhead, the beam
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would have to penetrate a desnsity unit of only one
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Atmosphere - 14.7 lbs/sq. inch. Surface experiments produce
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less spread than we're seeing, over ground distances with an
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"equivalence" of ten or more atmospheres.
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Such experiments have been done at an aerospace facility in
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the hills of Malibu, quite close to where I live. The
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stated purpose was to accurately place a stationary spot on
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terrain MANY miles away, for studies of tiny increments of
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earth movement - ostensibly for earthquake detection study.
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As a pilot, I have made many approaches into the smog of Los
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Angeles. From overhead, the ground can be clearly seen, but
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when descending into the layer at a normal rate of descent,
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one is looking forward into it edgewise. Visibility
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sometimes drops from unlimited (downward) to less than a 1/4
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mile edgewise. That's one reason an instrument rating is so
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important here. As to attenuation, we can already use
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kinetic devices to cut plate steel. I don't find it
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inconceivable that given the very high emission power
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possible, that we would still receive enough energy over
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that distance, and relatively narrow spread (1 cm. < 100
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yards) to produce an effect. Also, geosynchronicity would be
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a must for precision, and prehaps safety. (*more on stencils
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in reply*) Bob.
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There is 1 Reply.
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#: 45729 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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30-Sep-91 23:41:28
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Sb: #45717-#CIRCLE.TXT
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Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
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To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)
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Erik, your encouraging and complimentary response to
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CIRCLE.TXT is received with delight by all involved.
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Thanks! We're all professional writers, and have decided to
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place you in our Wills. We can be a vain lot...
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Re the conspiratorial aspect of the whole thing, I think it
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was the true purpose of STAR wars in the first place. Too
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many scientists debunked it in open hearings, while closed-
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door appropriations committees kept pouring classified money
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into it for me to believe it wasn't something "other" from
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the outset. As to the secrecy of the results, the likelihood
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was that the results might have been unpredictably
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detectable by the spy satellites of other countries (this
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started many years before Gorbachev). By placing the
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formations in a location (I'm also presuming an Anglo-
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American co-venture) which would guarantee obfuscation by
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the metaphysical history of the location, and simulating it,
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the story stayed on the occult book shelves for years.
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"It's an old story...". The perfect confounder for a new
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story. And so the CCCS book confirms. Great photos, not one
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word about the possibility of artifacts of human technology.
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Obviously, it worked. It's taken over ten years to get to
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this discussion. This kind of planning would have taken
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place among a very few at the top - certainly beyond the
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"need-to-know" of a project manager. By that I mean Joint
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Chiefs, the NSA, CIA, Executive branch. The shuttle pilots
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who may have deployed the orbiter(s) need not have known
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their function - only where to put them.
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As for the superconductor breakthroughs, "relatively high"
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temperatures are still on an order of -200 deg. C, making
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large scale experiments a lot more practical in the ambient
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conditions of space. In the CCCS book, the increasing
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precision and sophistication of the formations over the
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years indicates progressive refinement of the technology.
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[more in reply]
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#: 45730 S7/Extraterrestrials?
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30-Sep-91 23:53:39
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Sb: #45727-CIRCLE.TXT
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Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265
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To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X)
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the effect is discussed in depth. I do remember that there
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was discussion of the effect at the time of the tests - Life
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magazine had a story on it, and the West Coast and Oahu
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papers also ran stories. The effect is discussed in
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"Fundamentals Of Naval Weapons Systems", and the various
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electronic packaging manuals have sections on it. Like a lot
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of things, the information was out in the open, but you had
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to know where to look. (Also, those of us working on such
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things took them for granted - "Hey, that's *old* news.
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<G>). EMP, BTW, is *only* apparent at a distance in high-
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altitude bursts. Low altitude bursts dissipate the pulse
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through ground coupling within a few 10's of miles. (The
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distance also has a heck of a lot to do with the size of the
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device. The higher yield the device, the more powerful the
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EMP).
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Tom G.
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#: 17563 S3/General
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30-Sep-91 08:09:29
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Sb: #17529-Controversial new file
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Fm: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764
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To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
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Bob,
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Your comments on the lunar laser detection experiment were
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interesting. I had been under the impression that the
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purpose of the experiment was to validate the accuracy of
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lunar ranging in general. In any case, DETECTION of a
|
|
laser's reflection off the moon is a far cry from IMAGING a
|
|
doughnut shape on the ground, with sharp edges, isn't it?
|
|
|
|
ac
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 17675 S3/General
|
|
01-Oct-91 03:03:16
|
|
Sb: #17563-Controversial new file
|
|
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
To: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764
|
|
|
|
This week's NATURE reports work supported by the US Dept of
|
|
Defense, starting in 1981, to focus a ground-based laser to
|
|
a pin-point ten miles above the surface of the earth. (This
|
|
to emulate a star's light, for focussing telescopes.) The
|
|
work was secret for ten years, and was partially de-
|
|
classified in May of this year.
|
|
|
|
Lasers can jiggle single atoms about; even from a great
|
|
height, a football field is a pretty large canvas, in
|
|
comparison.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 17668 S3/General
|
|
01-Oct-91 01:31:16
|
|
Sb: Controversial new file
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764
|
|
|
|
Allen, to the best of my knowledge, the lunar laser
|
|
detections experiments had no (disclosed) relationship to
|
|
SDI. That its success may have confirmed for some the
|
|
possibilities, and thus helped to launch it, is unknowable
|
|
(yet). That was back in the early '70's.
|
|
|
|
The reflectors left on the moon were formed to compensate
|
|
for spreading over that great distance, and in that respect
|
|
resembled extremely long focal-length reflectors not unlike
|
|
telescope mirrors. What was ascertained was that a laser
|
|
could be aimed from earth, reach the moon adequately
|
|
collimated to access the reflector, and return through the
|
|
atmosphere and be seen.
|
|
|
|
I never meant to infer that this related directly to crop
|
|
imaging from a much more advanced technology than that, from
|
|
a source only 25,000 miles away, as opposed to the
|
|
earth-moon round trip of 476,000 miles. The example was
|
|
cited to demonstrate the length of time research has been
|
|
going on.
|
|
|
|
Essentially, CIRCLE.TXT explores the idea that
|
|
masers/lasers/whatevers, of power outputs and collimating
|
|
efficiencies using enhanced superconductive technologies not
|
|
yet stated, are able to create artifactual images through a
|
|
stencil, from a geosynchronous orbiter(s), much like a
|
|
"cookie cutter."
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45731 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
01-Oct-91 01:07:11
|
|
Sb: #45727-CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X)
|
|
|
|
Tom, thanks for the generous addendum to your prior on EMP.
|
|
(I got the reply, too). Most of the publicity on EMP I've
|
|
seen had to do with gamma effects - to with a random cosmic
|
|
ray momentarily zapping a logic gate in some bank's
|
|
computer, resulting in a billing error. I know it's more
|
|
general than that, and I appreciate the organization you
|
|
offered. I was especially struck by your mention of other
|
|
potential beam scenarios such as X-Ray and IR. I'd
|
|
entertained the notion of the latter, but left it out of the
|
|
discussion because of the many crop effects that occured
|
|
while under the surveillance of thermographic sensors and
|
|
light amplifiers. All that was seen was new circles in the
|
|
morning. I'd have presumed that thermography would have
|
|
shown an IR effect, though it may be a mistake to presume
|
|
anything at this point.
|
|
|
|
I was struck by your inference that gamma ray lasers have at
|
|
least been pondered, and may be theoretically possible.
|
|
I'll file that one.
|
|
|
|
I'd also like to add what a pleasure it is getting credible
|
|
information from one actively involved in related science.
|
|
My late father (a ham, K6JW) was a senior scientist on
|
|
Surveyor, at Hughes. He degugged the communications system,
|
|
hired based on his invention of a pulse-modulated AM
|
|
transmitter which reached (in 1957-8) the MARS station,
|
|
KC4USA, at McMurdo Sound using 20 watts input to final, from
|
|
Philadelphia. They didn't believe him, because his signal
|
|
strength was below noise level, but his intelligibility was
|
|
higher. I know what you mean about *old* news. When
|
|
Surveyor landed, he shrugged, knowing Apollo was only a
|
|
matter of time, and was already on his way to Mars. He was
|
|
"on" Voyager, and made it out of the Solar System.
|
|
|
|
Thanks again for the fascinating information.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45732 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
01-Oct-91 01:07:25
|
|
Sb: #45728-circle.txt
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
(contined)
|
|
|
|
I'm presuming circular stencils, Jon. What makes pursuit of
|
|
the "cookie cutter" thread so compelling - whatever the
|
|
exact energy source - is the later, ever increasing
|
|
appearance of not just circles, but circles connected by
|
|
straight lined, in turn bisected at right angles, with
|
|
parallel liner formations alongside: and all perfectly
|
|
aligned with the natural furrows in the fields. Drift might
|
|
not be detectable in rectilinear formations in the form of
|
|
obvious distortion, as in a circle/ellipse effect.
|
|
|
|
They also make a compelling argument for the stencil theory.
|
|
In leafing through page after page of these things, one sees
|
|
the compound structures with linear elelents starting to
|
|
proliferate [not to mention the one called "the insect"
|
|
which looks exactly like an Anasazi petroglyph (Arizona) I
|
|
have in a Smithsonian catalogue of such things, printed in
|
|
the 1870's].
|
|
|
|
But the most striking resmblance of the compound circle/line
|
|
structures is their resemblance to *sighting reticules.* I
|
|
understand that crop circle events are proliferating
|
|
elsewehere in the world. It's interesting to speculate if
|
|
the preliminary sighting, collimating, and power control
|
|
systems done in Wiltshire have reached a point where it is
|
|
now necessary to move on to other areas.
|
|
|
|
If the mythology of Britain were the first cover, recent
|
|
documentaries on UFO's in S.E. British airbases
|
|
("Unexplained Mysteries") which included active duty
|
|
personnel - hitherto inconceivable - might not mean that the
|
|
Military is priming a new confounder. "Give it to the
|
|
UFOlogists now..."
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45733 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
01-Oct-91 01:07:39
|
|
Sb: #45729-CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
(contined)
|
|
|
|
Erik, I wanted to comment on the relative obscurity of the
|
|
archeology of the Plains of Wiltshire. Albert Watkins work
|
|
on the ley lines, from the 20's, and the more "academically
|
|
accepted" work of such scientists as Alexander Thom, Gerald
|
|
Hawkins, and others - are widely published and seriously
|
|
studied here. Especially since the new respectability of
|
|
"ArcheoAstronomy," and its adoption and accreditation by a
|
|
number of pretty "straight" asronomers. Even the late nobel
|
|
laureate, Richard Feynman was interested.
|
|
|
|
There are hundreds of books in print on the subject. Just
|
|
as "space travel" was relegated to the science fiction book
|
|
shelves until Neil Armstrong made the discussion respectable
|
|
by "doing it," so it was with the standing stones and
|
|
circular mounds and more sophisticated structures such as
|
|
Stonehenge, Men Antol, Maes Howe (Orkneys), Avebury,
|
|
Glastonbury, and the demonstration (as opposed to theory),
|
|
that alignments had geodetic and astronomical significance.
|
|
|
|
In Chaco Canyon, Arizona, for example, these same
|
|
researchers are now discovering the same functions in
|
|
hitherto obscure structures and enigmatic petroglyphs.
|
|
There is considerable interest.
|
|
|
|
One can only imagine the effect in England itself, with
|
|
writers such as Jon Michel and others popularizing the
|
|
subject over the year - with Ley Line Societies debating in
|
|
print... with a sub rosa national obsession over the truly
|
|
fascinating reality of what has been in place for over 4000
|
|
years... What a fabulous cover! It makes the rules of
|
|
evidence unmanageable.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45751 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
01-Oct-91 22:16:40
|
|
Sb: #circle.txt
|
|
Fm: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312
|
|
To: 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
Bob,
|
|
|
|
My only point about the elliptical shape was that if you
|
|
fire a circle the image is elliptical due to the angle of
|
|
incidence and curvature of the earth. If the aspect and
|
|
orientation were consistent, it would be a pretty strong
|
|
piece of evidence for a stationary platform in space.
|
|
|
|
Another aspect of the phenomenon to consider is how the
|
|
stalks fall. Not only do they swirl both clockwise and
|
|
counter, they also have been known to fall all in the same
|
|
direction. In one circle, there was a small central swirl
|
|
and the stalks in each quadrant fell in the same direction
|
|
at right angles to those in adjacent quadrants. In still
|
|
other cases, they all fell directly centrifugally. These
|
|
and other idiosyncratic (for want of a better word)
|
|
behaviors make SDI a less than viable hypothesis.
|
|
|
|
Some have used the term conspiracy to characterize your
|
|
conjecture. I don't see that has the right connotation for
|
|
one or two governments testing weapons systems. That is
|
|
what they are supposed to do. I love the mindset
|
|
demonstrated by Erik when he suggested defense bureaucrats
|
|
lack imagination and guts. Military Intelligence is not an
|
|
oxymoron as the joke goes. Military types may have
|
|
different goals than the average civilian type and use all
|
|
sorts of means to gain them, and they would just as soon
|
|
have you underestimate their abilities. It makes their job
|
|
easier.
|
|
|
|
Jon Brunson
|
|
|
|
There are 3 Replies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45753 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
02-Oct-91 04:20:49
|
|
Sb: #45751-circle.txt
|
|
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312
|
|
|
|
There has been a fair amount of work done on the circles,
|
|
hoping to explain them by freak weather conditions and so
|
|
forth. In the published papers, the scientists say that the
|
|
patterns could be formed by ionized cushions of air. In
|
|
fact part of their problem was to figure out how even
|
|
anomalous weather patterns could be configured to do the
|
|
same thing that lasers would do in creating the cushions and
|
|
the ionized atmosphere. The Japanese scientist who
|
|
evidently did reproduce the strange patterns did so using a
|
|
laser over (I forget which) metallic or semi-metallic
|
|
substance.
|
|
|
|
This is all talked about in circle.txt. What should be
|
|
emphasized is that the lasers (if they exist) are not
|
|
cutting the crops directly (as lasers are wont to do in
|
|
movies about bank heists); they are ionizing the atmosphere,
|
|
creating a "microclimate", and it is this that bends the
|
|
stalks in a certain way according to the dynamics of the air
|
|
pocket, that creates a sporadic light show, and brings
|
|
reports of electromagnetic disturbances.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45754 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
02-Oct-91 06:01:55
|
|
Sb: #45751-circle.txt
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the clarification of your question regarding
|
|
"elliptical," Jon. It actually makes an answer to the
|
|
question simpler to state. If I were conducting what I
|
|
believe to be preliminary refinements - targeting,
|
|
stability, energy emission control, beam spread... I would
|
|
feel silly (as I sort of do) for not having also factored in
|
|
the curvature of the earth as a distorting element. Yes,
|
|
that could certainly be a factor, except that it would be a
|
|
radial effect, resulting in a slightly wider circle.
|
|
|
|
Angle of incidence is another story, but I would hope that
|
|
great effort would go into acheiving a perfect vertical.
|
|
That still leaves drift, and not very much at that. I find
|
|
it hard to imagine a stationary satellite at 25,000 miles
|
|
which would be *perfectly* stationary, and all things
|
|
considered, the degree of ellipticality (?) is small enough
|
|
to suggest relatively great stability. The obvious way to
|
|
achieve this is through the gyroscopic effects (precession-
|
|
compensated) of rapid spin.
|
|
|
|
It's admittedly a leap to the notion that the spinning beam
|
|
(behind a contra-rotating stencil) might in some way cause
|
|
the patterns of layover, but we are still after all, in the
|
|
brainstorming stage and don't claim to have all the answers.
|
|
I'm sure there are many secrets out there.
|
|
|
|
I've also seen pictures of the really radical patterns you
|
|
mention. I don't have the answer to all the specifics, but
|
|
I don't think the remaining enigmas are enough to (yet)
|
|
dismiss the overall scenarios. We have a superstructure
|
|
that's conceivable. We may be a long way from dotting the
|
|
"i"'s. From what I know of how secrets are kept, we all may
|
|
be startled by the effects manifested by the technology
|
|
itself. Conspiracy and underestimated abilities ahead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45755 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
02-Oct-91 06:02:11
|
|
Sb: #45751-circle.txt
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312
|
|
|
|
I think that the term "conspiracy" in this context is a _non
|
|
sequitur_. I've been involved enough in serious research
|
|
into assassination conspiracy to know that the term can be a
|
|
red herring. With few exceptions I've found "lone assassin"
|
|
conclusions to be manifestations of the collective denial of
|
|
something that's "too bad to be true," and therefore
|
|
processed by the brain into invisibility, to keep anxiety
|
|
threshholds tenable. As the denial begins to weaken there is
|
|
perceived a second conspiracy to conceal the first
|
|
conspiracy, when in fact the second conspiracy is often the
|
|
clinical denial of the first one, seen in retrospect. I find
|
|
hope in that... Maybe truth is immortal after all. It just
|
|
takes getting used to.
|
|
|
|
"Conspiracy" connotes a clinical mindest suggestive of
|
|
paranoia, always a convenience when needed. I agree, Jon,
|
|
that the testing of weapons can require a great deal of
|
|
coordination among the participants to hide the pattern
|
|
produced if the elements are allowed to connect. The
|
|
security structure of the Manhattan Project is a classic
|
|
example.
|
|
|
|
I also enjoyed Erik's citation of "imagination and guts."
|
|
Whoever put this number together had to be amply endowed
|
|
with both. I even see a sense of humor at work in the
|
|
"Arizona petroglyph."
|
|
|
|
So where does conspiracy end an symbiosis leave off. Take
|
|
the lowly termite. Each termite is a conspiracy all its
|
|
own, its G.I. tract being a safe house for a protozoa,
|
|
complete with room and board. The termite grinds up the
|
|
wood like a food processor so the protozoa (a
|
|
dinoflagellate, I think) can ingest it, and the termite
|
|
assimilates the nutrient wastes and byproducts that
|
|
result.
|
|
|
|
Top level Military and industrial security is something
|
|
else. Bob.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45760 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
02-Oct-91 18:26:44
|
|
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312
|
|
|
|
Joe, it was not my intention to take impugn any aspect of
|
|
the military intelligence community. However, I see how my
|
|
remark might have left such an impression. The point I was
|
|
making was this; in order to give credence to the SDI theory
|
|
being discussed here, one has to imbue SDI project managers
|
|
with a combination of characteristics (knowledge of group
|
|
psychology, history, a LARGE dose of chutzpah, just to name
|
|
a few) that, to my knowledge (admittedly not comprehensive)
|
|
have not been similarly demonstrated in other projects.
|
|
|
|
Unless I missed it, I have yet to see any discussion
|
|
regarding why all the circles are formed at night. Is it
|
|
possible that sunlight interferes with the process, or does
|
|
selection of Wiltshire as a proving ground require after
|
|
dark testing in order to avoid the possibility that the
|
|
cicrle formation will be directly witnessed? If the latter,
|
|
then the selection of this location would certainly seem to
|
|
impose a significant handicap to R&D activities unless you
|
|
assume (rather unlikely I would think) that direct daylight
|
|
observation of the process adds nothing significant to the
|
|
testing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45795 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
03-Oct-91 21:36:32
|
|
Sb: #45583-Crop circles
|
|
Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
|
|
I downloaded that file and I found it interesting. You're
|
|
right -- there are a lot of ideas discussed there that don't
|
|
show up elsewhere for some reason.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45798 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
04-Oct-91 00:37:38
|
|
Sb: #45795-Crop circles
|
|
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335
|
|
|
|
I'm glad you read it. Really, the only thing that I'm
|
|
trying to push is a search for the truth -- wherever that
|
|
leads. I've no emotional investment in one solution over
|
|
another -- or rather the one solution I'm wedded to is the
|
|
>right< one. What was presented in that thread -- and what
|
|
information has been garnered since that thread -- still
|
|
suggest that the crop circles are, in large measure, the
|
|
result of military/intelligence laser/maser testing from
|
|
geosynchronous satellites in place over Britain.
|
|
|
|
The presence of experts in allied fields is the reason for
|
|
pushing the matter here. I hope others will take down the
|
|
thread and read it through.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45823 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
04-Oct-91 20:22:41
|
|
Sb: #CIRCLE.txt
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)
|
|
|
|
>>What was presented in that thread -- and what information
|
|
has been garnered since that thread -- still suggest that
|
|
the crop circles are, in large measure, the result of
|
|
military/intelligence laser/maser testing from
|
|
geosynchronous satellites in place over Britain.<<
|
|
|
|
It strikes me that the evidence presented in CIRCLE.txt and
|
|
subsequent discussions can, at best, be described as
|
|
suggesting only that SDI testing is a theory that appears to
|
|
address more aspects of the phenomena than ony other.
|
|
Considering the wackiness of most of the other theories,
|
|
that's not really saying much. Interesting for sure, but a
|
|
whole lot of holes yet to be filled!
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45833 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
05-Oct-91 03:58:42
|
|
Sb: #45823-CIRCLE.txt
|
|
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
|
|
Absolutely. It is only a suggestion. But I hear that the
|
|
two men who confessed were asked point blank on a television
|
|
interview if they had ever been employed by an intelligence
|
|
organization, and they didn't give a straight answer. That,
|
|
also, the "news organization" which controls them and their
|
|
story doesn't not actually have a telephone number, and its
|
|
only address is through its accounting firm. That the USDoD
|
|
releases the information that it has been working with
|
|
ground-to-air laser focussing systems since 1981. That for
|
|
the first time the USDoD allowed members of the military to
|
|
appear on camera to talk about UFOs, and actually played up
|
|
the possibility that there are strange things happening in
|
|
the skies over south-Eastern England. The announcement last
|
|
week that the DoD was going to be putting its own smaller
|
|
satellites into orbit, and not rely on NASA, which is too
|
|
public and too unreliable. And so on. Such scattered
|
|
notes fit and enhance one scenario, and they do not fit any
|
|
other.
|
|
|
|
It's a far too complicated matter for anyone to claim
|
|
certainty. But I don't go back on my simple point: since
|
|
the thread has ended, it has grown easier to accept this
|
|
explanation, and only more difficult to accept any other.
|
|
(And in any case, it's not half so tortured as what
|
|
Astrophysicists are having to do to shore up red-shift as
|
|
purely a cosmological factor, and directly and only related
|
|
to distance.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45837 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
05-Oct-91 06:11:07
|
|
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
|
|
If you start with the assumption that all big secrets
|
|
ultimately get leaked, (and the parameters of this one make
|
|
it a great candidate for ultimate "leaking"), then the DoD
|
|
is setting itself up for some bigtime embarrasment down the
|
|
road. If they are smart enough to pull this off, they are
|
|
certainly smart enough to recognize that it won't be a
|
|
secret forever. How will they explain the duplicity? or are
|
|
you suggesting that they really don't care?
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45844 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
05-Oct-91 07:59:08
|
|
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)
|
|
|
|
>>But I don't go back on my simple point: since the thread
|
|
has ended, it has grown easier to accept this explanation,
|
|
and only more difficult to accept any other.<<
|
|
|
|
In reading my prior message I realized I didn't address this
|
|
comment. Just wanted you to know that I agree totally with
|
|
this statement. Unfortunately, the *competing* theories,
|
|
being so relatively lightweight, provide a very poor
|
|
benchmark against which to make comparisons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45849 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
05-Oct-91 10:11:27
|
|
Sb: CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X)
|
|
|
|
Erik, thanks for permission to send this private exchange we
|
|
had when I responded to your #45760 to Jon Brunson regarding
|
|
secrecy and day/night testing, and assorted items.
|
|
|
|
Before I became a freelance writer in the entertainment
|
|
industry (including credits in "Star Trek: Both
|
|
Generations," and also a lot of Earth stuff) I worked in a
|
|
division of RAND, in Santa Monica, as a Dept. Editor, and
|
|
was very involved in who got to know what. The SDI stuff
|
|
we're brainstorming would have been strictly Top Secret (I
|
|
only held Secret), and on an ironclad "need-to-know" basis.
|
|
Most of the people working on it would have no idea of the
|
|
nature of the goal - only the component(s) in which they
|
|
were involved - much like during the development of the A-
|
|
bomb. Project Managers wouldn't have come under this
|
|
category. SDI may be among the most sensitive projects
|
|
since then, if it is in fact a disinforming title.
|
|
|
|
The group psychology and history could very well have come
|
|
from a Think Tank such as RAND, the product of a very few
|
|
specialists under NSA level security. That's heavy duty
|
|
*tight.* The chutzpah was in the funding of it, as it was
|
|
publicly described as something which couldn't work. And
|
|
now, in Bush's latest speeches on disarmament, he openly
|
|
speaks of rediverting some of the newly freed funds to SDI.
|
|
That is clearly chutzpah. There are other, even more
|
|
cockamamey projects that must have required even more of the
|
|
same in the selling.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, on to night/day testing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45852 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
05-Oct-91 10:21:21
|
|
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
You noted something which hasn't been discussed and should
|
|
have been - the day versus night testing. Accuracy over the
|
|
25,000 mile distance we're talking about would be
|
|
unpredictable altered by a daytime sky - if only by the
|
|
gravitational effects of the sun in bending light and other
|
|
radiations - the demonstration of which was one of the early
|
|
supports for Relativity.
|
|
|
|
Another argument for night testing is the diminished chance
|
|
of a field being occupied at the time of exposure. Another
|
|
is that if laser-dot hot spots are used for sighting and
|
|
alignment, these would be much more effective at night. Yet
|
|
another is that R&D would be concerned mainly with the
|
|
effect, not the process. Night would give cover for an
|
|
effect that may take hours to complete. It would also make
|
|
the recording of sonic effects easier.
|
|
|
|
And, a big unknown is the time lag between exposure and
|
|
effect, if any. As for R&D activities in general, I think we
|
|
can presume that the formation process itself would have
|
|
been thoroughly studied in smaller scales, as indicated by
|
|
the various experiments cited my Michael McDowell in other
|
|
messages.
|
|
|
|
Your questions were good ones.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45853 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
05-Oct-91 10:21:36
|
|
Sb: CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
Bob, your exposure to the people involved in these types of
|
|
projects clearly gives your opinion some credibility
|
|
regarding their capability to both invent and successfully
|
|
execute something this remarkable. I can only defer to your
|
|
judgement in that regard. Yet.......10 years is an awfully
|
|
long time for our government to keep anything truly secret.
|
|
Especially something that would have so many of its
|
|
participants quietly smirking at the great joke they were
|
|
playing on the world press. You have have referred to the
|
|
Manhattan Project several times and I am aware of the
|
|
remarkable secrecy that was enforced. But times have
|
|
changed dramatically since then and I suspect that similar
|
|
efforts today would be considerably less successful.
|
|
|
|
>>Accuracy over the 25,000 mile distance we're talking about
|
|
would be unpredictably altered by a daytime sky - if only by
|
|
the gravitational effects of the sun in bending light and
|
|
other radiations<<
|
|
|
|
Some of your other speculations for night circle formations
|
|
are persuasive, but this one needs a little more support.
|
|
For instance, it suggests that all the crop circles are
|
|
formed only when the satellite is in the earth's shadow. I
|
|
don't know what period of time a geosynchronous satellite
|
|
would be in the earth's shadow, but if this is a requirement
|
|
for accuracy, the project has a *long* way to go before it
|
|
results in any significant defensive capability. Same is
|
|
true if the process takes hours to complete. Why spend
|
|
millions putting up a space weapon platform that, after 10
|
|
years of testing, requires hours to achieve the desired
|
|
effect? Seems to me that we wouldn't put it up until we had
|
|
largely overcome that difficulty.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45854 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
05-Oct-91 10:21:41
|
|
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
An additional issue I have yet to see addressed by this
|
|
theory is the obvious problem of what becomes of the testing
|
|
program when the "crop season" ends in Wiltshire. Just call
|
|
it a day and wait for next spring? Obviously not, yet no one
|
|
(at least none that I can recall) has put forth a theory as
|
|
to what testing alternatives go into effect in the fall and
|
|
winter. Your thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45859 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
05-Oct-91 12:00:33
|
|
Sb: CIRCLE.EXE
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X)
|
|
|
|
Erik, I clearly have a lot to learn about the /split
|
|
commnad... This is in response to # 45853-4, your response
|
|
to my # 45851-2 (whatever the headers say.) They started out
|
|
private. Sorry about the chaos.
|
|
|
|
I think I'm being read as suggesting a much more developed
|
|
stage of technology than we have actually reached. If my
|
|
theory is correct, I think that what we're seeing is the
|
|
very early stages of developing of something that may not
|
|
mature until the next century. Michael McDowell has cited
|
|
some of the experiments on laboratory scale, and I see
|
|
geosynchronous orbiter tests as a natural next step. I
|
|
think we're seeing the refinement of fundamental techniques,
|
|
not fully developed systems. I see fine tuning of prototype
|
|
technology, collimating methods, focussing - and even
|
|
learning to compensate for natural effects (such as gravity
|
|
bending and surface sphericity) at low levels of energy
|
|
compared to what it might lead to.
|
|
|
|
I also see a natural evolution of the application of known
|
|
technologies to defense systems (hopefully) and other
|
|
applications. In my own mind what I'm doing is
|
|
extrapolating that which already exists and amplifying it
|
|
forward in time. The smart bombs demonstrated in Iraq were
|
|
certainly mind-blowers, given the relatively primitive toys
|
|
which the previous generation of guided missiles used -
|
|
which was awesome when it appeared. Nothing has been put
|
|
forth here based on a technology which doesn't in fact
|
|
already exist. We have put not millions, but billions into
|
|
it, and if we can make complex patterns in a field from a
|
|
sattelite, 10 years is a few minutes, having started with
|
|
simple lab experiments.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45860 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
05-Oct-91 12:00:46
|
|
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X)
|
|
|
|
So what I'm saying is essentially in agreement with you,
|
|
Eric. It does indeed have a long way to go, but the signs
|
|
exist to anticipate what's coming. As to the completion
|
|
time of the process, I suspect that the actual exposure time
|
|
is quite short. I have no idea how long the effect takes to
|
|
become completed. Given the normal exponential acceleration
|
|
of development of such things as we're imagining (literally,
|
|
I'm sure many believe) we only have a glimmer of the
|
|
possibilities. If there is a geosynchronous sattelite over
|
|
England, I'd be surprised if it was more than an early
|
|
prototype of a technology that may not even have a name yet.
|
|
|
|
The question in your last, "what happens when the crop
|
|
season ends in England," is, according to the latest
|
|
reports, answering itself. There has been a tremendous
|
|
proliferation of clustered events in other parts of the
|
|
world - including Japanese rice fields. I don't know when
|
|
they harvest rice, but it's happening. And as was noted in
|
|
some priors, we're being handed Air Force UFO stories now,
|
|
as though the Metaphysical cover is about to be handed to
|
|
the UFOlogists, so that other sites can be visited openly.
|
|
|
|
Given the proliferation of other current sites, I'd say the
|
|
testing alternatives for fall and winter are already being
|
|
tuned up, if not operating.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45884 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
06-Oct-91 02:41:05
|
|
Sb: #45837-#CIRCLE.txt
|
|
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)
|
|
|
|
I don't start with the assumption that all big secrets
|
|
ultimately get leaked. Or, rather, even if they do, the
|
|
truth is not always universally accepted.
|
|
|
|
In general, the higher you go in any chain of command,
|
|
whether in corporate America, the White House, the Military,
|
|
Hollywood studios, or the Boy Scouts of America --
|
|
decisions can be (and very often are) made for trivial
|
|
reasons, that usually have to do with personal ego, and
|
|
rarely with the ultimate good of an organization. It's only
|
|
rarely possible to trace these things back. Which is to
|
|
say, I don't know why the military, or intelligence, or
|
|
whatever is working the way they are (if indeed they are
|
|
involved at all in the crop circles). I can imagine,
|
|
however, that allowing the UFO incident in the early 80s in
|
|
se England to have the participation of military personnel
|
|
was an attempt to confuse the crop circle business even
|
|
further. (The show also included mock-ups of purported
|
|
ships, and the light effects were suggested; it is possible
|
|
that these were deliberately slanted away from the actual
|
|
effects, a case of image disinformation.)
|
|
|
|
By the way, I do not consider the above evidence of
|
|
anything. But if the military do have somewhat to do with
|
|
the crop circles, then the above makes sense of an abrupt
|
|
and apparently unique departure of practice by the military.
|
|
I like theories which explain other phenomena, more than I
|
|
like theories that have to be altered in order to fit other
|
|
phenomena.
|
|
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45885 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
06-Oct-91 02:47:01
|
|
Sb: #45854-#CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
I read that the two gentlemen who confessed to the crop
|
|
circles, tried to produce another in daylight and before
|
|
witnesses. But its quality was distinctly below par. They
|
|
blamed this on the fact that it was so near to harvest.
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45886 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
06-Oct-91 03:03:40
|
|
Sb: #45852-#CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
Bob:
|
|
|
|
Maybe you or someone else here can look at the 12 Sept 91
|
|
issue of Nature, and see if the discussions there bear more
|
|
than the obvious relevance to what we're talking about.
|
|
There's even a photograph (oddly fake-looking) of a laser
|
|
beaming up to a point in the atmosphere. They discuss
|
|
making pin-point of light at heights of 1 K, and then also
|
|
at 80-100K.
|
|
|
|
The News and Views article talks about the secret military
|
|
testing of laser optics through the atmosphere, which was
|
|
only partially de-classified a few months ago. The two
|
|
articles themselves give detailed explanations of
|
|
experiments partially based on the military work as applied
|
|
to telescopes. I don't have the knowledge to figure this
|
|
out. Primmerman et al.'s work was supported by the Defense
|
|
Advanced Research Projects Agency, the Strategic Defense
|
|
Initiative Organization and the Army Strategic Defense
|
|
Command. The Lincoln Lab (MIT) scientists worked out of the
|
|
Mt Haleakala telescope and beam director on Maui.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45887 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
06-Oct-91 06:15:10
|
|
Sb: #45886-CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the tip on the Nature article, Michael. Among
|
|
the times that try persons' souls is when they let the wrong
|
|
subscription lapse. Like, I need Conde Nast right now.
|
|
|
|
The reason for the classification of military
|
|
laser/telescope technology may have been due to its use in
|
|
the Stealth fighter in hot-spotting Cruise missile targets.
|
|
With current disclosures about the Stealth's (relatively)
|
|
high visibility to "pulsed" low frequency radar. There may
|
|
be a need to loosen "need-to-know" (the usual reason for
|
|
diminished classification) to preserve or increase funding
|
|
in that specific area. On the other hand...
|
|
|
|
The telescope research is especially intriguing, as the
|
|
curvature of the mirror (presuming reflectors) must be a
|
|
super-precise parabola (as opposed to circle or ellipse) to
|
|
focus all the visible wavelengths to a white spot. As a
|
|
childhood amateur telescope maker, I remember the anguish of
|
|
chromatic abberation if it wasn't just right. When you
|
|
start talking about the ranges you describe, and the funding
|
|
agencies, It's certainly suggestive - not of answers so much
|
|
as new questions. I'll follow up on the references. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45888 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
06-Oct-91 06:15:17
|
|
Sb: #45885-CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)
|
|
|
|
Michael, has anybody yet tried faking one of the straight
|
|
line formations connecting circles, complete with parallel,
|
|
unconnected bars, (the ones that look so much like sighting
|
|
reticules) without leaving a trace of their traverse to or
|
|
from the sight?
|
|
|
|
Do they use stilts, or what? I once had a Chevvie that
|
|
cornered like stilts...
|
|
|
|
In all fairness, I'm sure some of the formations are
|
|
fakes... Uh, I wonder how one fakes a circle in a rice
|
|
paddy. They're in the Orient, now.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45889 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
06-Oct-91 07:21:37
|
|
Sb: #45884-#CIRCLE.txt
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)
|
|
|
|
Michael, I cannot take issue with anything you said. The
|
|
recent willingness of the military establishment to
|
|
participate in UFO discussions is indeed a curious turn of
|
|
events.
|
|
|
|
In any event, if the military is responsible for crop circle
|
|
formation, some person or group of people is coordinating
|
|
the various aspects of the program. Can you or Bob cite any
|
|
historical precedent for a military disinformation campaign
|
|
(in modern history) that reached so deeply into pop culture?
|
|
Is it possible that the dimensions of this campaign are so
|
|
wide as to overreach itself and thus guarantee that people
|
|
such as yourself will take note and try to strip the covers
|
|
off?
|
|
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45890 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
06-Oct-91 07:21:48
|
|
Sb: #45860-#CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
>>If there is a geosynchronous sattelite over England, I'd
|
|
be surprised if it was more than an early prototype of a
|
|
technology that may not even have a name yet.<<
|
|
|
|
Bob, would seem that under the discussed scenario the
|
|
question is not "if" but "how many". Unless geosynchronous
|
|
satellites have a helluva lot more maneuverability than I
|
|
ever expected. Where is/are it/they? Over Britain, Japan,
|
|
Australia? And assuming your explanation to be correct,
|
|
that's great for this year if the other sightings do turn
|
|
out to be legit. But what about prior years when the whole
|
|
phenomena evaporated at the end of September?
|
|
|
|
Please don't misinterpret my queries as anything more than
|
|
an effort to facilitate the fleshing out of a theory that
|
|
remains the best explanation I've yet heard for the origin
|
|
of crop circles. So far you are doing a splendid job.
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45920 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
06-Oct-91 16:52:57
|
|
Sb: #45889-CIRCLE.txt
|
|
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)
|
|
|
|
Any historical precedent?
|
|
|
|
A disinformation campaign about the dangers of nuclear
|
|
radiation. It continues today. Nobody's dying, nobody
|
|
died. Nobody's sick, nobody ever got sick except a little
|
|
nausea.
|
|
|
|
And, I also remember, a few years in there when we were not
|
|
bombing Laos, and no planes were flying over Cambodia, and
|
|
even today, the CIA still doesn't get any money from poppies
|
|
in the poppy fields of those beleaguered lands. I believe
|
|
there are still a few Big Deals that we don't know about
|
|
Vietnam, mostly the getting-in part -- and if I'm right,
|
|
there's a second fiction the military has maintained for
|
|
over ten years.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45949 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
07-Oct-91 06:46:16
|
|
Sb: #45890-#CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
|
|
Eric, your queries are terrific! The whole purpose of this
|
|
is to literally brainstorm the Q's and A's from different
|
|
perspectives, that will fill in a "most credible possible
|
|
scenario." I was very pleased by your compliment, and thank
|
|
you for it. If I'm giving good answers, it's because I'm
|
|
getting quality questions.
|
|
|
|
The question, having come this far with the line of inquiry,
|
|
is indeed *how many,* and not *if.* I hope I can get the
|
|
/split command right, because I need to lay out some stuff
|
|
about geosynchronous sattelites. If you already know the
|
|
fundamentals, forgive me, but other readers may not know. A
|
|
geosynchronous sattelite is one that maintains a fixed
|
|
position over a point on the earth. It does this by
|
|
maintaining an altitude high enough so that orbital velocity
|
|
is the same as the speed of the rotation of the earth below
|
|
it - the required altitude is about 25,000 miles.
|
|
|
|
They can be launched as the payload of a conventional
|
|
booster, or deployed from a Shuttle - the super-secret
|
|
missions of which date back to around the time Wiltshire
|
|
began having its "experience." One is simply released from
|
|
the cargo bay, and propelled upward to synchronous altitude
|
|
with it's own propulsion system. If payload requirements
|
|
allow the necessary systems and fuel, they can also be
|
|
retrieved by lowering them with ground control commands to a
|
|
decaying orbit, followed by a rendezvous with a Shuttle,
|
|
which can retrieve it, bring it home, repair it, refuel it,
|
|
even redeploy it. (The Hubble Telescope is due for a repair,
|
|
when "other priorities" are out of the way.)
|
|
|
|
(Networking and other stuff follows)
|
|
|
|
[More]
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45950 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
07-Oct-91 06:46:29
|
|
Sb: #45949-CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
[Continued]
|
|
|
|
The first geosynchronous satellites (GS's for short) were
|
|
Intelligence gatherers, but at the turn of the '80's became
|
|
better known for their "sattelite weather pictures" on the
|
|
TV news. Before pilots could get the pictures directly,
|
|
they used to watch the 6:00 A.M. CNN news for them. It was
|
|
more informative than a weather briefing. More and more
|
|
GS's got deployed, and now the earth is pretty well covered.
|
|
There was a bad hole in the coverage, until recently, when
|
|
one of the Pacific GS's went out.
|
|
|
|
More recently, a network of them was deployed to furnish
|
|
global navigation servcices to ships at sea, and aircraft,
|
|
and is performing superbly. Another was recently deployed as
|
|
a communication link for Shuttles, to relay communications
|
|
when the Shuttle was out of range of a ground station.
|
|
Always a dangerous time. So, "how many" is a given. I
|
|
don't know how many in close proximity it requires to "do a
|
|
Wiltshire," but clusters would be simple. And yes, they
|
|
have considerable local maneuverability. Using on board
|
|
thrusters, small changes in altitude would result in lateral
|
|
movement, aided by directional thrusters. If we could
|
|
control a soft lunar lander (Surveyor, on which my father
|
|
was a Senior Scientist) in the early '60's, precisely
|
|
maneuvering a GS at a fraction of that distance is no big
|
|
deal.
|
|
|
|
I would presume that the number has proliferated
|
|
considerably, and that the ones were talking about are
|
|
networked. (I'll be back in a few minutes with an
|
|
interesting reference from the original upload,
|
|
CIRCLE.TXT...)
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45952 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
07-Oct-91 07:23:13
|
|
Sb: CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576
|
|
|
|
Eric, following up on my prior about sattelite positioning,
|
|
I went to extract something that Michael McDowell had
|
|
contributed to CIRCLE.TXT, in his message #888 therein. We
|
|
had been discussing what was controversial, in England, of
|
|
the disposition of Castle Herstmonceaux, a prior site of the
|
|
Royal Greenwich Observatory. It's in the area of crop
|
|
circle activity. Countering a bit of disinformation that the
|
|
telescopes there were no longer in use, a correspondent
|
|
Englishman on CompuServe wrote:
|
|
|
|
"The Satellite Laser Ranger scope at Herstmonceaux is still
|
|
used by the RGO [Royal Greenwich Observatory] for measuring
|
|
orbits of artificial sattelites, for measuring precise
|
|
earth-rotation parameters..."
|
|
|
|
Michael also noted in that message, since confirmed, that in
|
|
the 1991 season crop circles have spread across Europe, with
|
|
"notable formations appearing in Sweden, near Wiesbaden and
|
|
near Cologne in Germany, in the Netherlands, in Italy, in
|
|
Bulgaria, In Yugoslavia, and in Siberia. About three dozen
|
|
have been formed in Japan."
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45953 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
07-Oct-91 08:24:21
|
|
Sb: #45920-#CIRCLE.txt
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
|
|
Michael, I wanted to add a bit to the list of disinformation
|
|
campains, though in some cases the disinformation was
|
|
intended not for the pop culture, but for its elected
|
|
leaders. (I also want to apologize for ripping off your
|
|
stuff about Castle Herstmonceaux in a prior to eric, and
|
|
signing my name twice on something. At least I've mastered
|
|
/split.)
|
|
|
|
Since Lincoln's time, with the help of General McClellan's
|
|
private secret service under Alan Pinkerton, disinformation
|
|
of presidents in service to the private agendas of other
|
|
power bases and, sometimes, commercial interests has been
|
|
routine. More recently, it was done to Roosevelt, Truman,
|
|
Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, and Reagan. Bush's
|
|
roots speak for themselves. Without turning this political
|
|
and coming off as the flaming radical which I am not, the
|
|
Eisenhower disinformation left a legacy which still lives,
|
|
and it all turns on a word, and a suitable beginning is
|
|
Iran.
|
|
|
|
Early in the McCarthy period, one did not challenge the use
|
|
of the word "communism" in expressing something to shoot at.
|
|
I know in the '50's, I didn't. Given the Korean War,
|
|
Hungary, and all the rest, one could be very anti-communist
|
|
and be a flaming liberal in domestic affairs, all at the
|
|
same time. That pretty well describes me, nobody could be
|
|
more pleased at the recent turns in world politics viz a viz
|
|
democratization than me. That unequivocally said, when
|
|
Mossadegh tried to nationalize Iran's oil,('50's) Eisenhower
|
|
was persuaded this was communism in action, and the CIA got
|
|
its first shot at deposing heads of state. We installed the
|
|
Shah and trained his secret police, the Sadak. It gets
|
|
better...
|
|
|
|
|
|
[More]
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45954 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
07-Oct-91 08:24:35
|
|
Sb: #45953-CIRCLE.txt
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
[Continued]
|
|
|
|
This was soon followed by the news that Arbenz, the leftist
|
|
president of Guatemala, was going to nationalize the
|
|
agronomy. The CIA went in and he was history. Another
|
|
communist down the tubes. Then along comes Castro to make a
|
|
deal with us - in which his nationalization of the United
|
|
Fruit Co. was the deal breaker that opened the Cuban door to
|
|
Russia. At the time we were paying for sugar at a rate
|
|
determined by a 1903 treaty, and United Fruit had a total
|
|
monopoly. Castro started in the Sierra Maestra of Oriente
|
|
province because the Fruit Co. owned *two thirds* of the
|
|
province outright, and he knew recruitment would be easy.
|
|
What the pop culture didn't know was that among the chief
|
|
attorneys, members of the board, a chairman of the board,
|
|
and the principal stockholders were John Foster Dulles (Sec.
|
|
of State), his brother Allen (head of CIA), Senator Henry
|
|
Cabot Lodge (whose father shot down the League of Nations),
|
|
Walter Bedell Smith, A couple of other Cabots and Lodges,
|
|
and three Latin American ambassadors, one of whom didn't
|
|
speak Spanish. So it was never about ideology, it was about
|
|
money, and we bought military dictatorships to protect it.
|
|
This legacy, as well as the Iranian void left by the
|
|
inevitable revolt against the Shah, filled by the
|
|
fundamentalists, still lives.
|
|
|
|
So does the disinformation of Johnson about the Gulf of
|
|
Tonkin, etc. It pervades us by the twisting of labels.
|
|
STAR Wars being really EARTH wars. Old hat. The
|
|
Intelligence Agencies even disinform each other in their
|
|
turf wars.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, back to Wiltshire!
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45989 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
07-Oct-91 22:08:57
|
|
Sb: #45798-#Crop circles
|
|
Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)
|
|
|
|
Hmmmmm..... I just had a particularly bad idea.... Have
|
|
you heard about the mysterious deaths of technicians and
|
|
engineers in England in the past few years? Could there be
|
|
a connection? It's been suggested for a long time that
|
|
they're related to a MJ-12 sort of conspiracy, but maybe
|
|
they could be related to terrestrial defense research
|
|
instead.
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 45990 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
07-Oct-91 23:14:35
|
|
Sb: #45989-Crop circles
|
|
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335
|
|
|
|
I do know of the deaths. I had not connected them with the
|
|
crop circles, and I think I still don't. There was, or is,
|
|
a faltering attempt to connect each of the scientists to UFO
|
|
research, but I've not even seen a list of names of these
|
|
engineers and technicians.
|
|
|
|
If the deaths are related, the timing -- well before the
|
|
circles business had begun to escalate -- is off. I also
|
|
believe that agents of the British or the U.S. government
|
|
would dispose of dangerous elements in some way that was
|
|
less conspicuous than leaving a corpse tied to a table at
|
|
the bottom of a lake. Of course this makes me wonder if the
|
|
claim is true that all these deaths have been ruled
|
|
suicides...
|
|
|
|
This is one of those mysteries which, to me, doesn't fit in
|
|
with the CIRCLES hypothesis. I'd love to see more facts,
|
|
however, for the business is talked about in rather a
|
|
mythologizing way; where it's only helpful if somebody hauls
|
|
out lists and tables and clippings. It would be helpful,
|
|
in fact, to dispose of the deaths as a related phenomenon.
|
|
CIRCLES isn't going to be telling us what became of Charlie
|
|
Ross, and things only get confusing if we try to gather in
|
|
too much. I had been reluctant to suggest Herstmonceaux,
|
|
but now I'm glad I did. So if anyone knows enough to shoot
|
|
this down, or shore it up, tell
|
|
all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 46006 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
08-Oct-91 17:33:00
|
|
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
|
|
Michael, your message #45833 suggested that the two men who
|
|
confessed to the crop circle hoax acted in a manner
|
|
afterwards that suggested they were perhaps the unwitting
|
|
dupes of the DoD. If true it would suggest a remarkable
|
|
dichotomy in the level of sophistication between the
|
|
technical end of the project and the disinformation campaign
|
|
intended to keep it secret. The enlistment of those two
|
|
bumpkins by some shady arm of the intelligence community
|
|
reflects a level of amateurish clumsiness that makes one
|
|
wonder how the project could possibly have remained secret
|
|
this long. It seems totally out of character with the level
|
|
of sophistication that this thread has assumed is at work.
|
|
|
|
In the same message you comment on the USDoD recent release
|
|
of info relative to ground-to-air laser focussing systems.
|
|
Your comment suggests such releases of info is unusual. I
|
|
don't know what specific info you are referring to, but as a
|
|
long-term subscriber to Aviation Week, I see new SDI
|
|
articles on a weekly basis. That's not why I subscribe so I
|
|
generally don't read those particular articles in detail
|
|
but, on a weekly basis, they are reporting on particle beam
|
|
technology, space-based lasers, railgun technology, etc. So,
|
|
my question is this: what specific news has *recently* come
|
|
out of the defense establishment that adds something new to
|
|
the debate about crop circles?
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 46007 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
08-Oct-91 17:33:10
|
|
Sb: CIRCLES.txt
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
|
|
Any historical precedent?
|
|
|
|
You cite 2 historical precedents for the existence of large-
|
|
scale disinformation campaigns sponsored by the defense
|
|
community. Even making the large assumption that they exist
|
|
as you believe them to, they are fairly small-scale and
|
|
narrowly focused productions in comparison to what this
|
|
thread is postulating. They were (are?) essentially little
|
|
more than passive "stonewalling" tactics to hide either a
|
|
mistake (fallout) or a politically embarrasing breach of
|
|
international protocol(Cambodia). Neither would seem to
|
|
provide strong evidence that the necessary mindset exists to
|
|
conceive and execute a disinformation campaign of the scale
|
|
that this thread addresses.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 46008 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
08-Oct-91 17:33:30
|
|
Sb: #CIRCLES.txt
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
To catch up on several points in your recent postings:
|
|
There are some aspects to the geosynchronous satellite
|
|
discussion that seem to me to require further refinement.
|
|
|
|
Firstly, such satellites would be a poor selection as a
|
|
weapons testing platform for any program that wants to
|
|
remain secret. Their deployment is eminently trackable if
|
|
only because of the long rocket firing necessary to get them
|
|
to the extremely high altitude necessary for a
|
|
geosynchronous orbit. I find the concept of a "stealthy"
|
|
geosynchronous satellite to be fairly remote. So, it's
|
|
ability to sit over UK for years and remain undiscovered
|
|
while performing nightly test firings just seems a little
|
|
farfetched. (No one has yet mentioned the necessity for the
|
|
"beams" to contain large amounts of energy but emit almost
|
|
no visible light!)
|
|
|
|
Secondly, the issue of what happens when the crop circle
|
|
"season" ends has not been adequately addressed. You
|
|
speculated that a multitude of geosynchronous satellites are
|
|
in orbit. Why put up more than one (much less establish a
|
|
network) if it does no more than replicate the same testing
|
|
over a different area? Geosynchronous satellites are
|
|
incredibly expensive due to the expense associated with
|
|
getting them into a 25,000 mile orbit. Putting up more than
|
|
one simply to perpetuate a disinformation campaign is a
|
|
stretch. Only a second generation testbed could possibly
|
|
justify that expense, and there is no evidence yet discussed
|
|
of any large breakthroughs in what these presumed satellites
|
|
are capable of doing. Why select a location (Wiltshire)
|
|
which provides only a seasonal testing ground? The marginal
|
|
maneuverability of a geosynchronous satellite precludes any
|
|
serious likelihood that the one speculated to be over
|
|
Britain could be rapidly moved into place over Australia or
|
|
Japan. We have great fuel limitations in
|
|
|
|
[continued in the reply]
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 46009 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
08-Oct-91 17:33:47
|
|
Sb: #46008-CIRCLES.txt
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)
|
|
|
|
[continued]
|
|
merely adjusting our current NOAA satellites to give proper
|
|
Atlantic Ocean coverage, let alone shifting them back and
|
|
forth on an intercontinental basis. Again, maybe 1991 will
|
|
be the year that the phenomena continues after the crop
|
|
season ends in Wiltshire. But what explains the absence of
|
|
fall and winter activity in prior years?
|
|
|
|
Thirdly, Michael noted the spread of crop circles to Sweden,
|
|
Italy, et al. Can you or Michael please reference the
|
|
source of this info. My ENS clipping folders haven't picked
|
|
up any such stories nor are any stories found in an online
|
|
search of UK newspapers as late as this afternoon.
|
|
|
|
Fourthly, your ruminations on the subject of cold war
|
|
disinformation campaigns are food for thought but they
|
|
address the crop circle phenomena in a tangential manner at
|
|
best. The interpretation of recent geopolitical events is a
|
|
topic on which you will never achieve any meaningful
|
|
consensus. (Spend some time in the Issues forum if you want
|
|
daily evidence of that!) Hence, butressing your crop
|
|
circle/SDI theory through their utilization probably does
|
|
more to muddy the water than clarify. It also provides
|
|
opportunities for readers who disagree with your perceived
|
|
political bent to question the credibility of all your prior
|
|
postings. Both you and Michael have referred to past
|
|
disinformation campaigns and those comments have been
|
|
informative. But neither of you has mentioned any campaign
|
|
focused solely on a weapons development issue that is a true
|
|
analog to the subject of this thread.
|
|
|
|
Sorry to be so long-winded here. Once I got going more and
|
|
more questions came
|
|
to mind.
|
|
|
|
PS: I may be misinformed (certainly wouldn't be the first
|
|
time), but I don't think Hubble is geosynchronous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 46020 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
08-Oct-91 22:04:57
|
|
Sb: #46019-CIRCLES.txt
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576
|
|
|
|
I remeber noting one example of weapons system
|
|
disinformation, the Manhattan Project, but that was
|
|
dismissed as being out of date. In fact it's not. I have
|
|
an extensive collection of antique newspapers, starting with
|
|
the war between Charley Two and Cromwell in 1642, and on
|
|
through the 1980's, an a lot of stuff from WWII. Many
|
|
weapons system that took years to develop weren't known of
|
|
until they'd been successfully tested. Likewise nuclear
|
|
subs, missiles we still haven't been told exist, it goes on
|
|
and on.
|
|
|
|
If I could give you a more recent campaign of this magnitude
|
|
(which the others are not) I'd be on "60 Minutes" and not
|
|
here. You're asking for data I have no way of having. I
|
|
too read Aviation Week, and it also disinforms on occasion.
|
|
That's how they get away with printing the classified stuff
|
|
they do. One hand feeds the other. There's other stuff to
|
|
read, too. As to the other events for which you requested
|
|
documentation, I carefully put in quotes the statement, (I
|
|
hope, and if I didn't please insert them) that it was a
|
|
response from an English correspondent. I included them
|
|
because I had seen the same places mentioned (on a smaller
|
|
scale) in the foreign press, and discussed on short wave
|
|
commercial radio from other parts of the world, to which I
|
|
listen regularly. Crop circles are a global item.
|
|
|
|
The other point you addressed was the "visibility" of high
|
|
energy beams at night. Too many meteorological variables
|
|
keep this from being arguable - not to mention Tom
|
|
Genereaux's mention of other energy forms than optical or
|
|
microwave which might be involved. I wish I knew..
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 46021 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
08-Oct-91 22:38:31
|
|
Sb: #45990-Crop circles
|
|
Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)
|
|
|
|
I haven't seen a list of names either, but there's
|
|
supposedly one at the back of Sydney Sheldon's new novel
|
|
"The Doomsday Conspiracy", which just happens to be about
|
|
silencing the witnesses to a UFO crash. (It seems Sheldon
|
|
is cashing in on the UFO craze. Except for the list of
|
|
names, though, I don't think it's an attempt at "fiction
|
|
based on the truth" like STrieber's "Roswell" and the very
|
|
controversial books by W. A. Harbinson. For one thing, the
|
|
crash takes place in Switzerland (never heard of one there)
|
|
and for another, the aliens are benevolent.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 46028 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
09-Oct-91 05:09:22
|
|
Sb: #46019-CIRCLES.txt
|
|
Fm: Frank Hentschel 75126,72
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
|
|
HST's orbit is nowhere near geosyncronous (mean altitude
|
|
~600 km, period 97 minutes).
|
|
|
|
-fjh
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 46033 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
09-Oct-91 07:53:56
|
|
Sb: #46028-CIRCLES.txt
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Frank Hentschel 75126,72
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the information, Frank. It corrects a general
|
|
misconception held here about its whereabouts. Would you
|
|
happen to know if that was its originally intended
|
|
operational orbit, or a holding orbit pending the scheduled
|
|
1993 repair mission? Would you also happen to know how its
|
|
stabilized on a celestial target, given that 97 minute
|
|
period? I'd be very grateful for any information you might
|
|
have about it. The people at JPL gave the impression that
|
|
it was quite maneuverable, and they originally wanted it
|
|
higher than that.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92349 S14/News/Current Events
|
|
12-Oct-91 01:02:09
|
|
Sb: #92338-CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
|
|
Michael, I thought you and Sheldon Cohen might enjoy the
|
|
following update, extracted from a CIS letter I received
|
|
last night. The correspondent is a resident of Wiltshire,
|
|
the site of the most publicized sitings, and is actively
|
|
engaged in the research.
|
|
|
|
It refers to a crop event near Barbury Castle, in August of
|
|
this year, one of the most spectacular to date.
|
|
|
|
"... The farmer in whose field it formed in the
|
|
second week of August has offered a reward of twenty
|
|
thousand pounds to anyone who can replicate it, the downside
|
|
is that if you cannot you pay him ten thousand pounds for
|
|
damage to his wheat field; so far there have been no takers.
|
|
The two characters, Doug & Dave, who claimed to be the
|
|
authors of all the formations have not taken up this offer
|
|
and are now being prosecuted by the farmers Union for damage
|
|
to crops much to everyone's amusement !"
|
|
|
|
I guess Time Magazine missed something...
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 46142 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
11-Oct-91 17:56:34
|
|
Sb: #46019-CIRCLES.txt
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
Bob, glad to see your posting in the Astronomy forum. Maybe
|
|
we'll get some contributions from folks with the technical
|
|
expertise to address some of the issues that have been
|
|
raised. Reason I was browsing in that forum was that I had
|
|
earlier requested their expertise regarding the possibility
|
|
of recovering GS satellites. I posted a question asking
|
|
anyone if they were aware of a GS satellite ever being
|
|
recovered after insertion into GS orbit. Response follows:
|
|
|
|
|
|
Message: #92245, S/3 Satellite Observing
|
|
Date: Thu, Oct 10, 1991 4:57:09 AM
|
|
Subject: #92199-GS satellites
|
|
From: Tony Beresford 72726,3245
|
|
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (deletable)
|
|
|
|
|
|
No Eric, nobody has the OOMPH to send a manned capsule into
|
|
Clarke orbit. Certainly not the US. And although the CIA and
|
|
NSA people dont always speak up about what they know the
|
|
russians are doing , I think launching Soyuz capsules to
|
|
geostationary orbit with Energia would be obvious anyway.
|
|
|
|
Bob, I haven't forgotten your last message. Am still
|
|
mulling it over.
|
|
|
|
-Erik-
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92264 S3/Satellite Observing
|
|
10-Oct-91 15:47:56
|
|
Sb: #92245-GS satellites
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245 (X)
|
|
|
|
Tony, you confirmed what I already suspected. Thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92351 S3/Satellite Observing
|
|
12-Oct-91 02:02:51
|
|
Sb: #92264-GS satellites
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
|
|
Erik, I'm pleased the discussion has departed the E.T.
|
|
section of SPACE and finally found it's way here. There is
|
|
also discussion on ASTRO/News/ Current Events.
|
|
|
|
When I suggested the possibility of geosynchronous satellite
|
|
(GS) retrieval, I never envisioned sending the Shuttle into
|
|
Clarke orbit, but rather bringing the GS down. I understand
|
|
from an unclassified source at JPL that this is possible. I
|
|
hope Tony Beresford or someone who believes differently will
|
|
comment.
|
|
|
|
Since geosynchronicity is a matching of GS period to the
|
|
rotation of the earth - this being altitude dependent - the
|
|
scenario with which I was presented involved "goosing" the
|
|
GS downward into a controllable decaying orbit, and
|
|
rendezvousing a Shuttle with it at a lower altitude - on the
|
|
order of 600-800 km. I'm informed that Hubble is at 600
|
|
km., 97 min. period, for just that purpose.
|
|
|
|
Payload accommodation for fuel, thrusters, and control
|
|
systems might be considerable to enable recoverability, but
|
|
as I understand it this capability (or its development) is
|
|
part of the program and has been for some time. If it's
|
|
been done, nobody's talking.
|
|
|
|
Corrections are welcome. This isn't about being right, but
|
|
rather finding out what is.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92355 S3/Satellite Observing
|
|
12-Oct-91 06:31:40
|
|
Sb: #92348-GS satellites
|
|
Fm: John McDonnell 73437,3202
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
|
|
It is certainly possible to build-in retrieval capability
|
|
for a GEO satellite; there simply isn't generally a need.
|
|
For example, a geosynchronous communications satellite which
|
|
has worn out generally isn't worth fixing anyway (i.e. not
|
|
worth the cost, loss of payload, etc.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92374 S3/Satellite Observing
|
|
12-Oct-91 21:39:13
|
|
Sb: #92348-GS satellites
|
|
Fm: Tony Beresford 72726,3245
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
|
|
I rather think the required payload of rocket would reduce
|
|
useful payload to a very small amount. Consider that the
|
|
scenario you are suggesting is equivalent to the velocity
|
|
increment given by the third stage and the circularising
|
|
burn to get to Clarke Orbit. An ion motor solution seems
|
|
most reasonable but there are no flight ready electric
|
|
propulsion systems in use.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92386 S3/Satellite Observing
|
|
13-Oct-91 00:52:27
|
|
Sb: #92355-GS satellites
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: John McDonnell 73437,3202
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the response, John. The origin of the inquiry
|
|
related to the thread concerning a "special circumstance"
|
|
scenario. This is laid out in the CIRCLE.TXT thread, which
|
|
speculates (among other things) that the "crop events" in
|
|
Wiltshire, England, and elsewhere, are (among other things)
|
|
the artifacts of preliminary SDI experiments employing
|
|
laser/maser/other technology originating in GEO satellites
|
|
over the affected sites. As opposed to a comsat, landsat,
|
|
navigational device, or weather satellite, a need for
|
|
retrievability and redeployment can be envisioned.
|
|
|
|
Answer we needed was whether it could be done at all. If it
|
|
is SDI under a brilliant cover (the obfuscating nature of
|
|
the site), and under an inverted title (Earth as opposed to
|
|
Star), many puzzles fall into place. Also, budget becomes
|
|
unlimited, and the only remaining question on the particular
|
|
point becomes conceivability of the concept of GEO access.
|
|
|
|
Thanks again.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 46157 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
12-Oct-91 00:25:06
|
|
Sb: #46142-CIRCLES.txt
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
|
|
Thanks for redirecting me, Erik. It's much appreciated. I
|
|
responded to your exchange with Tony Beresford over on
|
|
ASTRO/SATTELITE OBSERVING. I'm grateful to you for the
|
|
referral. For thread readers here, those are the places to
|
|
look for continued activity.
|
|
|
|
So as not to leave anyone hanging, my query about retrieving
|
|
GS's was in the context of goosing the GS down to a lower
|
|
orbit, not sending the Shuttle up to get it.
|
|
|
|
See you on ASTRO.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 46158 S7/Extraterrestrials?
|
|
12-Oct-91 00:25:11
|
|
Sb: #46142-CIRCLES.txt
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
|
|
Almost forgot... re that last message you're mulling over,
|
|
I'll look for a response here, or the thread might get
|
|
scattered all over the place. Thanks again for keeping me
|
|
current as to where the action is.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92651 S3/Satellite Observing
|
|
18-Oct-91 19:15:30
|
|
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
|
|
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
|
|
Bob, got a little distracted with political events the past
|
|
week. Talk about a conspiracy!
|
|
|
|
Anyway, I've enjoyed our past discussions of crop circles as
|
|
possible artifacts of SDI testing. The Fox television
|
|
network aired a special program tonite entitled "The UFO
|
|
Report: Sightings". It contained a segment on crop circles.
|
|
Not surprisingly, it focused on them as almost certainly
|
|
related to UFO activity. The best part was some great aerial
|
|
photos of the more recent "pictogram" formations. I'm not
|
|
sure why, but those dramatic photos never fail to get the
|
|
juices running! Seldom does an unexplained phenomena
|
|
display itself in such a flagrant "I dare you to figure me
|
|
out" manner.
|
|
|
|
The failure of the Fox show to make any reference to the
|
|
possible high-tech human origins of crop circles just gives
|
|
me more confidence that SDI testing is the most likely
|
|
explanation. Why look for extraterrestrial explanations
|
|
when much more prosaic explanations remain to be
|
|
investigated? I confess that I remain highly skeptical that
|
|
GS satellites are involved. Also, some aspects of the
|
|
alleged disinformation campaign that we previously discussed
|
|
strike me as fairly remote. However, your prior comment
|
|
that noted the crop circle patterns resemblance to
|
|
sighting/aiming reticules strikes me as the single most
|
|
insightful observation yet made regarding their possible
|
|
origin.
|
|
|
|
The aforementioned Fox show also claimed that circles were
|
|
showing up in Japan, Canada and elsewhere. Sure wish I
|
|
could get some "hard" news to confirm those claims. The
|
|
spread of genuine "Wiltshire type" circles to other parts of
|
|
the globe would be a fascinating development.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92262 S14/News/Current Events
|
|
10-Oct-91 11:54:20
|
|
Sb: #92250-CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
|
|
According to Time magazine a week or two ago, the crop
|
|
circles were created by two British hoaxsters who finally
|
|
came forward. Their biggest problem weas that for a long
|
|
time no one noticed their circles.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92305 S14/News/Current Events
|
|
11-Oct-91 06:40:56
|
|
Sb: #92262-#CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327
|
|
|
|
Sheldon, there's little doubt that some of the "crop events"
|
|
are the product of hoaxers. To look at quality photographs
|
|
of the simultaneous events in the publications referenced in
|
|
circle.txt, consider the 11 year history of increasing
|
|
sophistication and size and simultanaeity of immense
|
|
formations, the hoaxers from last week's "Time" are history
|
|
even in Britain. Over the past year 20/20 did two serious
|
|
pieces on these events, and Hugh Downs is one of the world's
|
|
great skeptics. I call them events because most of them are
|
|
far too full of linear componenents - some of them
|
|
connecting the circles, complete with mid line
|
|
perpendiculars and bisections, all aligned with the crop
|
|
furrows already in the fields - to be called "circles."
|
|
|
|
Many look more like target reticules projected through a
|
|
stencil, others are immense replicas of archeological
|
|
patterns already on site with a 5000 year old history.
|
|
Presuming a laser/maser/other coherent beam with a projected
|
|
diameter of a fraction of a centimeter, through a stencil, a
|
|
beam spread of the hundreds of yards which charactarize
|
|
these "cookie cutouts" is not inconsistent with an origin
|
|
from the 25000 mile altitude of a geosynchronous orbiter.
|
|
|
|
Hoaxers account for some, not all, and we're not about
|
|
UFO's, unless they're of human manufacture. This is a very
|
|
real, underpubicized mystery which has been under study by
|
|
serious scientists for years. Circle.txt referenced again in
|
|
the following, will be a surprise to many.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92338 S14/News/Current Events
|
|
11-Oct-91 20:21:01
|
|
Sb: #92262-CIRCLE.TXT
|
|
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
|
|
To: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327 (X)
|
|
|
|
They have been unable to reproduce their work by daylight,
|
|
however, and with witnesses. They were sponsored by a "news
|
|
agency" which does not have a telephone, its only address is
|
|
c/o an up-scale accounting firm, and it has apparently no
|
|
other clients and no other stories. This is covered in the
|
|
CIRCLE.TXT, to some extent. The incidence of crop circles
|
|
would have required these two men, in their sixties, to
|
|
create two or three circles a night every night for the
|
|
entire length of the English growing season. When they were
|
|
asked, on English television, if they had ever been employed
|
|
by any intelligence agency, they laughed, but did not give a
|
|
precise reply.
|
|
|
|
Most of the above is circumstantial. Their complete
|
|
inability to reproduce even a single simple circle under
|
|
conditions that were far more favorable (light, no need for
|
|
silence, or the obliteration of all footprints) than those
|
|
under which they claimed to have succeeded so frequently, is
|
|
what kills this particular hope for this simple, and un-
|
|
sinister solution.
|
|
|
|
(I should make it clear that I am a participant in the
|
|
thread that made up CIRCLE.TXT, but I have been a member of
|
|
this forum for almost a year now, and log in every day --
|
|
that is, I'm not appearing here for the sole purpose of
|
|
defending and promoting a pet theory. In fact, I log on
|
|
every day in hope of finding a dozen messages hammering on
|
|
the issue of cosmological redshifts. I can hardly wait till
|
|
I can read an article in Nature, or in Science News, or
|
|
anywhere else for that matter, that doesn't automatically
|
|
assume that redshift = distance and distance alone.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92387 S3/Satellite Observing
|
|
13-Oct-91 00:52:37
|
|
Sb: #92374-GS satellites
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the informative response, Tony. At least it's
|
|
theoretically possible. As you may have noted in priors,
|
|
the question concerns hypothetical SDI experiments addressed
|
|
in CIRCLE.TXT and its subsequent thread, and some of the
|
|
English "crop events" being artifacts of same.
|
|
|
|
Presuming unlimited budget, a small nuclear propulsion unit
|
|
employing high thrust, impulse thrusters using superheated
|
|
gasses, and the purely speculative idea that more than one
|
|
Shuttle payload might be joined before deployment to
|
|
Clarkesville, does it then become a rational element of the
|
|
dialogue - especially presuming NSA top secret development
|
|
over a ten or eleven year period.
|
|
|
|
The "crop events" began as primitive circles around the time
|
|
the high frequency super secret Shuttle missions began, and
|
|
have been growing in sophistication ever since. That's the
|
|
genesis of this inquiry,
|
|
|
|
One last brain-pick... do you or someone else know the
|
|
unclassified version of the size/weight of a current Shuttle
|
|
payload?
|
|
|
|
Again, thanks for the information.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92388 S3/Satellite Observing
|
|
13-Oct-91 08:20:02
|
|
Sb: #92374-GS satellites
|
|
Fm: Allen Thomson 72757,1325
|
|
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245
|
|
|
|
>no flight ready electric propulsion systems in use
|
|
|
|
Minor correction: the FUSSR and the now-defunct USSR have
|
|
used plasma thrusters on a variety of GEO and LEO satellites
|
|
for many years. Coupled to a nuclear power source, scaled-up
|
|
versions of these engines could perform the orbit-changing
|
|
maneuvers being discussed here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92427 S3/Satellite Observing
|
|
14-Oct-91 08:03:58
|
|
Sb: #92422-#GS satellites
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245
|
|
|
|
Tony, a belief is developing that the "novel plot" is indeed
|
|
the reason that so much classified money is poured into SDI,
|
|
with more to come (thanks to progress in disarmament talks)
|
|
for eleven years, and speculation as to some of the payloads
|
|
of super-secret Shuttle flights. This thread began with the
|
|
upload on Sept. 22 of CIRCLE.TXT (with klutzy file
|
|
description due to Tapcis inexperience) to the
|
|
ISSUES/PARANORMAL Library 10, for want of a better place to
|
|
put it. A thread started on SPACE/EXTRATERRESTRIALS around
|
|
Msg. # 45328. I fervently hope that both will be read, as
|
|
we have finally attained neo-respectability by our presence
|
|
here, which is where we wanted to be in the first place.
|
|
|
|
Since CIRCLE.TXT is a thread from the "Science & Health"
|
|
forum of the (members only Writers' Guild of America (WGA),
|
|
West, Inc., Los Angeles, dealing with the Wiltshire "crop
|
|
events," proposing that some of them are artifacts of GS
|
|
borne SDI experiments in maser/laser/other EARTH directed
|
|
technology.
|
|
|
|
I realize that as professional writers, we would
|
|
understandably be perceived as developing "novel" plots.
|
|
This is not the case, here. Writers may have well-exercized
|
|
pattern-recognition skills, but the scenario this thread
|
|
produced has not been discussed elsewhere, and we sincerely
|
|
wanted it introduced into the international discussion.
|
|
Before I was writing "Star Trek: Both Generations,"
|
|
"Bonanza," "Marcus Welby, M.D.," "The Equalizer," and some
|
|
movies, I was a Dept. Editor in a then RAND division. My
|
|
late father was a Senior Scientist on Surveyor, at Hughes,
|
|
and the arduous process of getting on the Astronomy Forum
|
|
involved no E.T.'s or metaphysics.
|
|
|
|
|
|
[More]
|
|
|
|
|
|
There is 1 Reply.
|
|
|
|
#: 92428 S3/Satellite Observing
|
|
14-Oct-91 08:04:10
|
|
Sb: #92427-GS satellites
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
|
|
|
|
[Continued]
|
|
|
|
The thread already available in CIRCLE.TXT and the
|
|
SPACE/E.T.'s messages have brought the reasoning as to how,
|
|
by whom, why there, what for, hoaxes or not, etc. to a point
|
|
of evolution that I think will come as a surprise to many,
|
|
here, who are willing to suspend disbelief long enough to
|
|
read the material already on CIS, and, if interested, do
|
|
everything in their power to shoot down its dominant theory.
|
|
|
|
CIRCLE.TXT represents only the views of the participants,
|
|
and not its host forum or the WGA. It was uploaded with
|
|
consent of all participants. Even the skeptics thought it
|
|
deserved discussion.
|
|
|
|
If we were fictioneering, we wouldn't be trying so hard to
|
|
attract the discussion of the the truly knowledgeable people
|
|
that we would expect to frequent this forum. From some of
|
|
the messages on /SPACE/E.T., I suspect some did participate,
|
|
feeling their professional credentials were safe.
|
|
|
|
I'm very grateful to you and the others who have been
|
|
willing to take us seriously enough to answer our questions
|
|
and correct our lay misconceptions. I truly hope the
|
|
material already posted and uploaded is examined, and the
|
|
"novel plot" continues to be brainstormed.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
#: 92429 S3/Satellite Observing
|
|
14-Oct-91 08:04:25
|
|
Sb: #92423-#GS satellites
|
|
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
|
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245
|
|
|
|
Allen, I hope you managed to read my priors to Tony
|
|
Beresford. I'm pretty knowledgable in the workings of the
|
|
National Security Act, and though the prior development of
|
|
this thread as cited there, and elsewhere, is informed
|
|
speculation based on unclassified sources, I know that some
|
|
of you are professionals and working under clearances. For
|
|
the record, none of the participants in the CIS thread(s)
|
|
except Michael McDowell, who I know well, have ever met
|
|
anywhere but here.
|
|
|
|
Your message to Allen Thompson presumes that what the US has
|
|
flown is known. It also presumes that the Russians aren't
|
|
aware of it, and that it might not be an international co-
|
|
venture, (perhaps Anglo/American), which is developing
|
|
coherent beam technology (maser, laser, other) as the
|
|
military equalizer of the 21st century. It would portent a
|
|
rationale for some recent geopilitical developments, and
|
|
promise a control over Third World nuclear proliferation, so
|
|
calling it a Manhattan Project of the 21st century isn't
|
|
necessararily a doomsday paranoia. The same security
|
|
methods might apply.
|
|
|
|
The super-secret Shuttle missions begin around the time of
|
|
the first "crop circle" events in Wiltshire, England, where
|
|
I understand is also located the Royal Greenwich
|
|
Observatory's orbital tracking and earth-rotation
|
|
measurement facility for a number of years, now. My working
|
|
premise is that *some* of the "crop events" are artifacts of
|
|
tests originating in GS(s) over the site. Most are within a
|
|
100 mile radius of Stonehenge, and have progressed in
|
|
sophistication over the period of the secret Shuttle
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flights. Placing the images in an area with a 5000 year
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archaeological and metaphysical history would be a brilliant
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cover. "It's an old story...", making the rules of
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evidence unmaginable.
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[More]
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There is 1 Reply.
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#: 92430 S3/Satellite Observing
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14-Oct-91 08:04:38
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Sb: #92429-GS satellites
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Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
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To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)
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[Continued]
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Hardly anyone has closely examined the high quality
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photographs currently in print, because they have been
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relegated to the occult book shelves. That something
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extraordinary is happening, as opposed to paranormal, seems
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unarguable. Lately, the density and grographic range of the
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events has been spreading - 30 in Japan in the past few
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months.
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To let Tony off the hook of suggesting a coverup, I'll be
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happy to make the suggestion. It won't be the first.
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During the '70's my late father (then working on Voyager),
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got me an insider's tour of the Hughes research facility in
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Malibu. It was from the beginning a laser-dedicated
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facility, ostensibly developing VERY long range collimation
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for the purpose of earth-movement detection, hopefully
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toward the devolopmnent of earthquake prediction systems.
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Howard Hughes' earthquake phobia was getting a lot of press,
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too. Given the sophistication of what I saw, and the length
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of time since I saw it - and given the added development of
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relatively high temperature superconductors (particularly
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magnetic applications) - and the favorable ambient
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conditions of space for maser efficiency - I can't begin to
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imagine the degree of development that's been achieved.
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If you're willing to read CIRCLE.TXT and the abovementioned
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thread, you'll find a number of references and citations
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regarding long ongoing research in plasma physics - some of
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it suggestive of the potential for electrical propulsion,
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the lack of which you concede has intrigued you. I hope the
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brainstorm will continue.
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Bob
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#: 92457 S3/Satellite Observing
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14-Oct-91 16:58:09
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Sb: #92423-GS satellites
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Fm: Allen Thomson 72757,1325
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To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245
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Well, we did fly one reactor (SNAP-10, I think it was), but
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it wasn't very big. As to why we never fully developed high-
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isp propulsion systems--dunno, but it seems to be a
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combination of lack of perceived need, budget, and the
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technological conservatism that set in after the 1960s.
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Sigh.
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#: 92533 S3/Satellite Observing
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15-Oct-91 21:10:05
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Sb: #92422-GS satellites
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Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
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To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245
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I very much respect the professionals and the professional
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attitudes found on this forum, and I'm glad that Bob
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Sabaroff has so carefully explained our intentions and our
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hopes for the Crop Circle thread. As I was very proud to
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have been a minor part of the discussions here of Arp and
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the cosmological red-shift discussion, I was glad to be able
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to contribute somewhat more to the Crop Circle discussion.
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Although I'm a writer (over 30 novels published, the film
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BEETLEJUICE, other films, television as well, and a
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doctorate in English), I do have a little background for the
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discussion. I was an NSF mathematics scholar back in the
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days of the CDC 6400, and for six years I worked at the MIT
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|
National Magnet Laboratory. I was secretary for the group
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working on Lasers of all sorts, far-infrared, sub-
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millimetre, super-conducting, GaAs, and the like. And I
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|
have a memory for irrelevancies -- such as the fact that
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Herstmonceaux Castle had recently been put up for sale.
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You will find on the thread more and more acerbic skeptics
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than have yet shown up on CompuServe. And you will find the
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Astronomy forum quoted for information (on the disposition
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of the Castle mentioned above) that I knew to come here for.
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But what can't be stressed enough is that the Circle.Txt was
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uploaded as a target for your best shots. Show us where the
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reasoning is off, the facts wrong. We have no interest at
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all of convincing you of anything. We have every interest
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in getting at the truth of the subject.
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#: 92651 S3/Satellite Observing
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18-Oct-91 19:15:30
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Sb: CIRCLE.txt
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Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
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To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
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Bob, got a little distracted with political events the past
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week. Talk about a conspiracy!
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Anyway, I've enjoyed our past discussions of crop circles as
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|
possible artifacts of SDI testing. The Fox television
|
|
network aired a special program tonite entitled "The UFO
|
|
Report: Sightings". It contained a segment on crop circles.
|
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Not surprisingly, it focused on them as almost certainly
|
|
related to UFO activity. The best part was some great aerial
|
|
photos of the more recent "pictogram" formations. I'm not
|
|
sure why, but those dramatic photos never fail to get the
|
|
juices running! Seldom does an unexplained phenomena
|
|
display itself in such a flagrant "I dare you to figure me
|
|
out" manner.
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The failure of the Fox show to make any reference to the
|
|
possible high-tech human origins of crop circles just gives
|
|
me more confidence that SDI testing is the most likely
|
|
explanation. Why look for extraterrestrial explanations
|
|
when much more prosaic explanations remain to be
|
|
investigated? I confess that I remain highly skeptical that
|
|
GS satellites are involved. Also, some aspects of the
|
|
alleged disinformation campaign that we previously discussed
|
|
strike me as fairly remote. However, your prior comment
|
|
that noted the crop circle patterns resemblance to
|
|
sighting/aiming reticules strikes me as the single most
|
|
insightful observation yet made regarding their possible
|
|
origin.
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|
The aforementioned Fox show also claimed that circles were
|
|
showing up in Japan, Canada and elsewhere. Sure wish I
|
|
could get some "hard" news to confirm those claims. The
|
|
spread of genuine "Wiltshire type" circles to other parts of
|
|
the globe would be a fascinating development.
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#: 92582 S14/News/Current Events
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17-Oct-91 12:19:54
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Sb: #92262-#CIRCLE.TXT
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Fm: Stuart Lees 75300,247
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To: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327 (X)
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<Their biggest problem weas that for a long time no one
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noticed their circles.>
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|
The local TV station in the West of England (includes
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Wiltshire) has been giving coverage to the circles for
|
|
years. If no one noticed the hoaxers' circles it can only
|
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have been because there were many more intricate circle
|
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patterns to take note of elsewhere.
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-Stuart (Bristol, England)
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There is 1 Reply.
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#: 92624 S14/News/Current Events
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18-Oct-91 01:04:31
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Sb: #92582-CIRCLE.TXT
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Fm: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327
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To: Stuart Lees 75300,247 (X)
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Well, I was going by what Time Magazine said. So if I was
|
|
wrong, actually I wasn't wrong--Time was.
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#: 92666 S3/Satellite Observing
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18-Oct-91 23:01:18
|
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Sb: #92651-CIRCLE.txt
|
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Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
|
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To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
|
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|
|
Would you believe that even as I type, my trusty VCR is
|
|
taping the very TV show referred to. It's 9:28 P.M. in L.A.
|
|
and Fox is airing it from 9 - 10. From your comments, I'm
|
|
looking forward to viewing it at leisure when I log off.
|
|
(actually, I'm in Tapcis... technicalities technicalities).
|
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|
|
There is some media confirmation involving at least the
|
|
Japanese circles. They appeared in rice paddies, and film of
|
|
them was shown on CNN's International News Hour, which airs
|
|
here around midnight. There was no mistaking them. Same
|
|
format.
|
|
|
|
I recall that your inquiry here about the possibility of
|
|
retrieving GEO's, and the thread eventially came around to a
|
|
concession that it was theoretically possible - and that
|
|
satellites could be linked before deployment, to increase
|
|
the payload to include maneuvering systems - and could upon
|
|
recovery be refueled and redeployed, I arrive at the
|
|
scenario that seems most possible.
|
|
|
|
I cling to GEO's because the precision of the alignments and
|
|
the sharpness of their outlines suggest a very stable and
|
|
stationary point of origin. The possibility of substantial
|
|
maneuvering payload means that considerable resources could
|
|
be utilized to establish the aligned spin necessary to
|
|
provide gyroscopic stability and make necessary corrections
|
|
for precession. A moving source, whether a spy plane or non-
|
|
GEO satellite would be taking great risks of malfunction or
|
|
imprecission, and would be very detectable. It also seems
|
|
convenient that the Royal Observatory's orbital tracking and
|
|
earth rotation measurement facility is in the affected area.
|
|
|
|
Bob
|
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CONTINUED IN CIRCS2.TXT
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*********************************************************************
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* -------->>> THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo <<<------- *
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********************************************************************* |