635 lines
31 KiB
Plaintext
635 lines
31 KiB
Plaintext
SUBJECT: NEW AGE FORUM 19-JUL-92 FILE: UFO2971
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********* New Age Forum 19-Jul-92 15:51:21
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R1: *SYSTEM*| Switching to Formal Conferences (R1)
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David/Moderator: Welcome George, OK, now for the rules, please pay
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| attention there will be a test! .....
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| I'm the Moderator, the big boss here <g>, if you have a
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| question then send a ?, if you have a comment send a !, I will
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| call on....
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| each of you in turn. DO NOT interrupt the person speaking
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| until they are finished. Also....
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| While you are typeing, at the end of your message send a set of
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| elipse like.... so we know your still talking....
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| When you are finished end your message with a GA, which mean go
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| ahead...
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| An questions?
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MIKE HART: No
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David/the other 1: ok
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Teri Wheeler: ok
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David/Moderator: Oh, by the way, when your called on please send like an
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| ok..., so we know that your typing your message. Got it?
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| Ready to go? ga
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David/the other 1: ?
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David/Moderator: David > ga
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David/the other 1: ok...
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TIM GORDON: g
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David/the other 1: There's been some rethinking over Conference meeting
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| day/times? Is there a preference...
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Ron | I'm ready to go GA
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GEORGE D. HOPPER: ready
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David/the other 1: Sundays are good for me but most evenings (cept
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| wednesdays) are alright...GA
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Jason Reed: !
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David/Moderator: Jason > ga
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Jason Reed: ok...
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| later in the day would be better for me GA
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Jeff Morrow: !
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David/Moderator: Has anybody got any preferances as to day and times? ga
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| Jeff > ga
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Jeff Morrow: ok...
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| Being on the west coast, I would like a later time, if
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| possible...
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GEORGE D. HOPPER: !
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Ron | !
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Jeff Morrow: I know this may not be convenient for the people on the east
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| coast, so i'm flexible....
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| Sundays are ok with me. GA
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David/Moderator: George > GA
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GEORGE D. HOPPER: Im flexiable also GA
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David/Moderator: Ron > GA
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Ron | ok...
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| Either earlier OR later is OK, but earlier would be better...
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| I am on the East Coast. GA
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David/Moderator: Ok....
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| I would suggest that everybody send me a message as to what
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| date/times you prefer, then I'll work it out from there. Sound
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| ok? ga
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Joe Balsamo: David
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Jeff Morrow: <ok>
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Ron | <ok>
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MIKE HART: !GReat
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Joe Balsamo: !
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David/Moderator: Joe > ga
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GEORGE D. HOPPER: ok
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Teri Wheeler: ok
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Joe Balsamo: What is the currently agreed upon time that everyone is
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| saying OK to?
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David/Moderator: Nothing yet, we were discuss this date and time, any
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| suggestions from your end? ga
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Joe Balsamo: It's 2:00 right now, right in the middle of the day for
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| me...I don't know...Of course I may not be in touch again 'till
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| mid August!
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David/Moderator: Planning on leaving for somewhere, say Cygnius 5? ga
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Joe Balsamo: Atlanta
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Jeff Morrow: <yhay's close>
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David/the other 1: ?
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David/Moderator: Ahhh yes, of course, forgive me! Ok lets get started
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| folks....
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Jeff Morrow: >yhay's = that's>
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David/Moderator: David > ga
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David/the other 1: ok...
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| Two questions. Did I see a posting that a software package had
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| been found...
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| ...for the newsletter? Also how was the conference...thumbnail
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| sketch...GA
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David/Moderator: Well...
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| I did find a software package for the newsletter that works on
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| the PC, it is excellant, and FREE!!!! As for the symposium....
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| I thought it was great. I learned a lot and met alot of nice
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| people. It did get dry though in places....
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| Joe, you have anything you want to say about it> Joe > ga
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Joe Balsamo: OK...
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| The symposium was excellent. I learned much from Stan Friedman
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| who is an expert on the Corona crash and the MJ-12 papers...
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| also, the info on the 14 witnessed abduction presented by Budd
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| Hopkins is going to, IMHO, make or break UFOlogy...finally, the
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| stuff on the mr. Ed Walters case presented by Jeff...
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| ntating as well. ga
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David/the other 1: ?
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David/Moderator: Anyone have any specific questions about the symposium?
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| David > ga
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David/the other 1: ok...
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| How was the database idea rcvd?
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David/Moderator: Well, from those I talked with they liked the idea,
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| though I did not have the chance to talk to Friedman or
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| anyone....
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| else big about it. Joe did you mention it to anyone? Joe > ga
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Joe Balsamo: David...
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| No, I didn't think that it was my place, you being the official
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| rep for the New Age/UFOlogy section. ga
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David/Moderator: Ok... but now your a big wig too! <g> .....
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| I was thinking, everybody, of drafting a letter up that we
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| could send, as a group, to the UFO organizations, and to ....
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| researchers like Hopkins, Vallee, Friedman, etc., explaing what
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| we're doing and trying to get there supports. Any comments? ga
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GEORGE D. HOPPER: ?
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David/the other 1: !
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David/Moderator: George > ga
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Jeff Morrow: !
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GEORGE D. HOPPER: Yeah...I think you may get some flake...other ufo
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| organizations arent very co-operative...as a rule. ga
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David/Moderator: Good point...
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| David > ga
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Ron | ?
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David/the other 1: ok...still a good idea...At the very least it
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| documents attempts and responses.
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| ...ga
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David/Moderator: Jeff > ga
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Jeff Morrow: ok...
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| I'm going to get on my soap box for a minute here (groans from
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| all)...
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| Before we can ask for help or information from other parties...
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| we have to decide what it is we are doing with this project....
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| I'm in favor of trying to increase the amount of KNOWLEDGE
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| about the UFO...
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David/the other 1: !
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Jeff Morrow: phenomena, not just keep a large catalog of rehashed data.
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| Having said that, it is no small matter...
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| to address the mechanics of putting that formula in place. I
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| think the...
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| kind of things Jason has been doing with the K2 reports is
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| going...
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| in the right direction. Comments? GA
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David/Moderator: Well...
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| I like the fact that Vallee mentioned in his paper for the
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| symposium how a UFO database should be formed, and Ron here....
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MIKE HART: !
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David/Moderator: has made some interesting comments as well. What we
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| need, what all UFO researchers need, is a central point from
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| which they...
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| can gather and input data...
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| Ron > ga
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Ron | ok...
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| My turn on the soapbox!...
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| I think that two issues need to be addressed right away...
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| (1) Who will use it, i.e., who are the targeted users...
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| (2) What are the information sources
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| ...
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| ga
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Jeff Morrow: !
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Jason Reed: !
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Ron | !
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David/Moderator: David > ga
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David/the other 1: I pass my comment to Mike. Gotta mull this a bit.
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| ga
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David/Moderator: Mike > ga
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MIKE HART: ok...
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| I think that everyone agrees that a database you have been
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| talking...
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| about is a great idea and you should, we should all lend our
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| support...
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| just keep in mind that you need to push the issue with all
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| the...
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| parties interested as I have seen, for 10 years now, this
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| idea...
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| discussed in the usual circles, with no results...ga
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David/Moderator: Mike...
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| Thanks for the support, and you are very correct in what your
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| saying!...
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| Jeff > ga
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Jeff Morrow: ok...
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| I agree that Ron has two very valid points. The information
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| sources...
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| is an issue that must be addressed before anything else. I
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| think that...
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| much of the information available today is not information in
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| the...
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| sense that it provides no verifyable evidence, or testable
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| claims....
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| How do we sort that issue out with the resources we have. I
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| think...
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| collectively we have the intelligence, but what about the time
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| and ...
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| financial resources. Once we have sorted out the data source
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| problem...
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| it will be more clear who can benefit from this data. GA
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David/Moderator: Jason > ga
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Jason Reed: One thing...do *we* have the resources and manpower to do a
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| good ...
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| job with both a NL and a dbase or should we concentrate on
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| one...
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| and make sure we do it right...thoughts? GA
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Deb Carlen: !
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David/Moderator: Jason,
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| Good point, IMHO I would think the database would take
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| priority, but I am open to suggestions....
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| Ron > ga
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Ron | ok... I lost my train of thought since the subject has changed
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| some...
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| We need to pin down the following:
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| 1. Who will use it
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| 2. what will they use it for and how
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| 3. Where does the information come from
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| 4. And how will the informaiton be selected (i.e. EVERYTHING or
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| just...
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| some specific things...
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| ...
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| From my point of view, as a serious UFO skeptic, I would
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| benefit greeatlly....
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| from having a sort of quick & easy reference library...
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Teri Wheeler: I
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Ron | maybe not necessarily a case-by-case database.
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| ...
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| Maybe the database should be thought of as a catalog of sourts.
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| GA
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David/Moderator: Deb > ga,,,, Ron I'll get mack with you in a sec.
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Deb Carlen: Just wanted to say that we missed youat the NL seminar in St.
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| Louis ga
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David/Moderator: Nobody called me about it! hint hint!
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Deb Carlen: Hmmmm. Thought I gave you the date and time at the last
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| CO...?
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David/Moderator: About the database and Ron's comments....
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| Who will use it? Anybody interested, including serious UFO
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| researchers...
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| What is it for...To have in one place all UFO evidence, instead
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| of it being spread out over such a large area, AND...
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| for once to have ALL the evidence available for people to
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| puruse...
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Ron | !
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Jeff Morrow: !
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David/Moderator: Where will it come from, that's a good questions...How
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| is it selected, another good question....
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| Ron > ga
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Ron | ok... Good long range goal, indeed...
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| But, as i have been finding in going through some online
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| searches...
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| lately, there are MASSIVE amounts of data...
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| The question really is WHERE DO WE START ? GA
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David/Moderator: That's why we're here! Jeff > ga
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Jeff Morrow: ok..
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| Well, where do we start? Do we go to MUFON and say *Excuse me
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| guys,...
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| we are a group of people on Compuserve who want to get this UFO
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| data ...
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Ron | !
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Jeff Morrow: sorted out, would you please give us a copy of all your
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| files?...
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| We then wait until a truck backs up at our collective door and
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| dumps this stuff?...
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| How do we start? Is there some way we can begin to gather data
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| independent...
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| of the other sources, in case they are slow or reluctant to
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| cooperate? GA
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David/Moderator: Ok...
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| I thought along the same lines, let us collect independant data
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| and inlcude into a database, while working with the MUFON and...
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| the others....
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| Deb > ga
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Deb Carlen: Nothing from here. Must've been an earlier !
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David/Moderator: OK....Ron > ga
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Ron | Comment request withdrawn, i need to think a little more GA
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David/Moderator: Ok.. now MY turn!!....
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| All UFO organizations, including MUFON and CUFOS have there own
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| extensive UFO computer databases....
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Ron | ?
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David/Moderator: the problem is they don't allow most people to access
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| them, or they charge a 'nominal' fee. What is needed, as
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| Vallee pointed out...
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| is a central clearing house sort of, where ALL this data can be
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| gathered into one place. Its time to start sharing...
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| and I think that as a group we can get it all started!....
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| Ron > ga
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Ron | Would it be possible to have a "gateway" from CIS into the
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| MUFON and
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| CUFOS databases. A subscription, if you want to callit that? GA
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David/Moderator: Yes...
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Joe Balsamo: !
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David/Moderator: sortof, we can set up a gateway, easily done, but like
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| CUFOS they charge like $1500 to access there system....
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| as for MUFON, they won't get back with me on any details,
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| excpet they said that if I submit a formal request for...
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| information, they will search their systems for it....
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| Joe > ga
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Joe Balsamo: OK...
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| Where is the money going to come from for this? Even
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| incidental expenses such as copies, searches, phone calls, etc.
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| etc. This is
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| why CUFOS and MUFON charge money...
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| onest with you, unless we really pare this thing down, it's
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| just not practical, IMHO. ga
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Ron | !
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David/Moderator: Ron > ga
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Ron | ok...
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| Joes got a good point...
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| Is it practical or possible to ask for sort of a "shareware"
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| fee for
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| downloading of data from the libraries, or does that only work
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| for software. GA
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David/Moderator: Ok...
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| I suppose a shareware fee system could be set up, maybe, but
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| will the cost be at first? I mean if we all took what
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| information...
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Ron | !
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David/Moderator: each of uses, and put that in the DB, it would take
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| awhile for that to all get setup, later on then the money issue
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| may come ...
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| into play, but I don't see how it really does right now.
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| Comments? ga
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| Ron > ga
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Jeff Morrow: !
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Ron | I also wanted to agree with Joe on "paring it down" at first...
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| It looks like there's likely to only be at most 5 or 6 people...
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Deb Carlen: !!!
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Ron | working on this thing at first ....
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| ga
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David/Moderator: Jeff > ga
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Jeff Morrow: ok...
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| I think the money issue has to be adressed at the sta
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| [C
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| rt...
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| If we are going to acquire data, it is going to cost us. Do we
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| know how much?...
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| If we want to get going, we are going to need some form of
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| capital or other...
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| financing, or else we are going to be really limited in what we
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| can...
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| accomplish. If we cannot meet the other UFO organizations on
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| some sort...
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| of equal footing when we ask for help or data, we are going to
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| be really...
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| limited in the amount of clout we can weild. GA
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David/Moderator: Point taken....
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| but I think that if really start on the thing and get people to
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| see that we are serious, and really TRYING to do something....
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| then they will fall in later and help us out. Especially if we
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| can get Vallee or Friedman on out side!...
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| Deb > ga
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Deb Carlen: Excuse my barging in from the business point of view but PR
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| and articles/infor regarding your efforts re DB will generate
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| costs, and all
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Jeff Morrow: !
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Ron | !
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Deb Carlen: the people here will have online costs if hthey help you
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| (sorry msg got cut off) GA
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| !
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| Get a grant or other funding now and you'll have enormouly more
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| credibility.
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David/Moderator: Thats true Deb, let me think that one over a sec....
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| Jeff > ga
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Jeff Morrow: ok...
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| I think we have started in a manner of speaking. Kason has
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| taken this K2...
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| thing through a logical progression. He has seen a report
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| alleging certain...
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| things, and has investigated them. One thing he has uncovered,
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| is the...
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| NASA heliport. This has added to our knowledge, and perhaps
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| ultimately...
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| to the explanation of activity in that area. In any event, we
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| now know...
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| more about K2 than we did. This series of reports and
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| investigations...
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| can form the first bit of available data in the database.
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| Comments? GA
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David/Moderator: Excellant!....
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| We have started, in a way, now lets take it a step further
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| though and put it in a form besides just messages!....
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MIKE HART: !
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Jeff Morrow: <sorry Jason, Imispelled your name>
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David/Moderator: AND, set it up in such a way so as other information,
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| other research can be added!...
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| Ron > ga
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Jeff Morrow: <great!>
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Ron | ok... I think we're looking at a spare-time, voluntary effort
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| for the foreseable future, until we have a "proof of concept"...
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MIKE HART: Z
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Ron | and that means a concept... Jeff is onto something and it kind
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| of
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| goes back to what I said earlier about creating a depository of
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| reference resources, and using an online DB to catalog the
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| holding...
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| I have to dissapear for about 5 mintues, but will be back GA
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David/Moderator: Deb > ga
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Jason Reed: ?
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Deb Carlen: That's it from me. Enjoyed it guys. Good luck.
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David/Moderator: Thanks for joining us! Mike/Irene > ga
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IRENE HART: Sorry my call waiting cut me off GA all...
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David/Moderator: Jason > GA
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Jason Reed: is the db a complete reference in itself or an index to other
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| files...
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| that contain more complete references? ga
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Joe Balsamo: !
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| !
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David/Moderator: Jason,...
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| I was thinking a index of sorts, with limited descriptions,
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| that would point the way to other more detailed files and/or
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| sources....
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| Joe > ga
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Joe Balsamo: Pass, you answered what I was going to say.
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David/Moderator: Ok...
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Tony | HELLO! Just came back from Convocation! Fully charged!
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David/Moderator: Mike have you got anything you'd like to add about all
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| this? ga
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Mike | ok...
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| Yes, not to change the subject you are discussing, but I have
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| to leave and...
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| I will be in contact with you later as I am a professional fund
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| raiser...
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| and will start a project, if you desire to raise some capital
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| for this DB...
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| Please get back to me about later on tonight or when
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| convenient...Mike GA
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David/Moderator: Thank Mike, will DO!!!!
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| Anybody else? ga
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Joe Balsamo: !
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David/Moderator: Joe > ga
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Joe Balsamo: OK...
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| Have we come to any kind of decision, yet, as to what we are
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| going to do, specifically? IF so, perhaps we should divide up
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| the
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| work...
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Ron | !
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Joe Balsamo: ind of from the old school of plan the work, divide and
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| conquer, then work the plan. GA
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David/Moderator: Ron > ga
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Ron | ok...
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| I am collecting data, of sorts, already, that you and joe
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| already ...
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| know about. It's not a database of UFO sightings, but I'd
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| describe...
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| it as building a collection of reference resources....
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| basically in the same manner in which I approach things I do...
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| professionally.
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| ...
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| For example, the book list. After that, I plan to compile a
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| bibliography of government reports (if any) and ...
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| a list of UFO periodicals and magazines...
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| ...
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| It's too early, from a "research" point of view, to start
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| building
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| a case database...
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| except as a prototype to show to prospective financers...
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| ....
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| What I don't know is what I should do with all that stuff. GA
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|
David/Moderator: Well...
|
|
| I think the data you are gathering right now would be very
|
|
| valuable to others when it is finished. As for the database...
|
|
| well is it not feasible for each of us to transcribe on the
|
|
| computer what case information we each have...
|
|
| i.e. books, peridicals, journals, and basically start things
|
|
| from there? ga
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| Anybody?
|
|
Ron | !
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|
David/Moderator: Ron > ga
|
|
Jeff Morrow: !
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|
Ron | Ok... It's a place to start. We got to start somewhere until
|
|
| we...
|
|
| can flesh out a viable concept...
|
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| I will have further comments in a moment, but need to think a
|
|
| few minutes first GA
|
|
David/Moderator: Jeff > ga
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|
Jeff Morrow: ok..
|
|
Joe Balsamo: !
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|
Jeff Morrow: I have to go in a moment, but if there is anything I can do
|
|
| to assist in the preparation...
|
|
Ron | !
|
|
Jeff Morrow: of the database structure, please let me know. I have
|
|
| fairly substabntial computer resources, and programming...
|
|
| knowledge in a number of languages (C, C++, FORTRAN, Lisp, SQL,
|
|
| Actor)....
|
|
| I will be away for about a week, and will give this more
|
|
| thought. If you ...
|
|
| don't hear from me after that you will know the rattlesnakes
|
|
| got me. GA
|
|
David/Moderator: Thanks Jeff..
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|
Jason Reed: bye jeff
|
|
David/Moderator: I will keep you posted on what happens and what we
|
|
| decide, I appreciate your help and support!...
|
|
| Joe > ga
|
|
Jeff Morrow: <thanks guys, Bye>
|
|
Joe Balsamo: OK, I have several comments and suggestions, so bear with
|
|
| me...
|
|
David/Moderator: Bye
|
|
Joe Balsamo: First, i think that we need to start really organizing these
|
|
| COs to take better advantage of the time. We need to come up
|
|
| with an
|
|
| agenda and we need to stick to it and try and get some things
|
|
| accomplished...
|
|
| Secondly, it is impossible, for you, David, to do all of this
|
|
| yourself. You need to start being a deligator of tasks and not
|
|
| try
|
|
| and accomplish everything yourself...
|
|
| ON the database itself, I agree with what has been said, we
|
|
| need to decide WHAT it is for and WHO will use it, as Ron
|
|
| stated...
|
|
| it is a terrible waste of everyone's good time and money to
|
|
| simply *do* a database for the sake of doing one. Let's really
|
|
| pin
|
|
| down what it is going to be used for. What types of
|
|
| statistical correlations are we interested in...
|
|
| what trends are we looking for, what hypotheses are we
|
|
| attempting to test...
|
|
| Finally, we really need to narrow down a small subset of data
|
|
| and go after that. NOT based on what books people happen to
|
|
| own, but
|
|
| really try and fit our data collection into what we are trying
|
|
| to accomplish...
|
|
| the computer part is going to be the EASIEST part of all.
|
|
| Deciding what the purpose of the project, the general thesis if
|
|
| you
|
|
| will, is where the work is going to come in. GA Ron
|
|
Ron | ok...this might take a page or two ...
|
|
| Oh, BTW, is it my turn, David ?
|
|
| GA
|
|
David/Moderator: Yes, ga
|
|
Ron | thank you...
|
|
| I dearly would love to be able to get my hands on a
|
|
| comprehesive UFO...
|
|
| database, but it seems that it is not practical to go through
|
|
| MUFON or...
|
|
| CUFOS for that. Financially practical. ...
|
|
| SO, build our own...
|
|
| But, as I said before, there are huge amounts of data to deal
|
|
| with...
|
|
| and it will take years for just 5 or 6 people to get it to a
|
|
| useful...
|
|
| point working in spare time on a volunteer basis...
|
|
| ...
|
|
| I think that we start small, but keep future growth in mind...
|
|
| ...
|
|
| For the foreseeable future...
|
|
| the WHO is going to amount to Forum users. Regulars, temps, and
|
|
| visitors...
|
|
| Maybe 3 dozen people in all.
|
|
| But, as word gets around and as the collection grows, more
|
|
| people should start using it. I think we have to start building
|
|
| a reference
|
|
| collection and see what happens. What kind of access rates we
|
|
| get.
|
|
| ....
|
|
| The WHAT is probably, at first, going to be the typical sorts
|
|
| of ...
|
|
| forum uses. ...
|
|
| Specifically, it seems to occur rather frequently that someone
|
|
| new
|
|
| comes in (remember, I'm new myself, basically)...
|
|
| and wants to argue a case, or insists on having references at
|
|
| hand...
|
|
| Joe- you remember *****... (deleted by moderator)
|
|
| SO, the "hot" issues are going to be the current ones...
|
|
Joe Balsamo: <smile>
|
|
Jason Reed: !
|
|
Ron | And that leads back to Jeff's point earlier about reports on...
|
|
| current cases...
|
|
| I'm monopolizing, so GA and I'll continue later..GA
|
|
David/Moderator: Jason > ga
|
|
Jason Reed: Sorry, but I've got to go...catch you all in the forums.
|
|
David/Moderator: Glad you could make it Jason, keep in touch!
|
|
Teri Wheeler: !
|
|
David/Moderator: Teri > ga
|
|
Teri Wheeler: I have to go also, but wanted to let you know that you have
|
|
| my
|
|
Joe Balsamo: !
|
|
Teri Wheeler: support...even if I am new! I'm not sure what I have to
|
|
| offer, but I
|
|
| ...would be glad to help. Bye for now. ga
|
|
Joe Balsamo: bye
|
|
David/Moderator: Teri, thanks for your support, and I'm glad your
|
|
| interested. Keep an eye on the messages and I'll see you later!
|
|
| Joe > ga
|
|
Joe Balsamo: Yes...
|
|
| Actually, I need to get going as well, perhaps we should
|
|
| continue this discussion next week...
|
|
| Is there any thing we can do or talk about to kind of close
|
|
| this meeting in a manner that we can be thinking about for next
|
|
| time? ga
|
|
Ron | !
|
|
David/Moderator: Ron, any suggestions from you? ga
|
|
Ron | yes...
|
|
| I was leading up to the following proposal:...
|
|
| As "hot" topics occur, someone (or anyone) uploads a short...
|
|
| document with the facts and references...
|
|
| Those will eventually form a foundation for a comprehensive
|
|
| DB...
|
|
| and in the meantime, they can be cataloged...
|
|
| In effect, I think I'm talking about a newsletter, that is
|
|
| cataloged...
|
|
| and eventually turns into a database. GA
|
|
Joe Balsamo: !
|
|
David/Moderator: So perhaps we should work with the newsletter first,
|
|
| then expand out later? Joe > ga
|
|
Joe Balsamo: As a start, I think that is an excellent idea and much more
|
|
| 'doable' at this time...
|
|
Ron | !
|
|
Joe Balsamo: I think that what Ron is saying is that we'd have a master
|
|
| index that would crossreference to individual articles...
|
|
| for example, this Don Ecker video deal. Someone could have
|
|
| uploaded a short paper on what it was all about, and it would
|
|
| be
|
|
| cataloged in the index. ga
|
|
David/Moderator: Ron > ga
|
|
Ron | Yes... Joe caught my idea....
|
|
| David, I think with Joe gone, you and I are the only one's
|
|
| left...
|
|
Joe Balsamo: I'm still here, but I need to get going
|
|
Ron | SO, we have lots of things to think about for next CO. I'd
|
|
| suggest...
|
|
Ron | having one NEXT SUNDAY to keep things moving...I am done, if we
|
|
| have to clear out of here now. GA
|
|
David/Moderator: Alright, everyone think on whats been said, we'll
|
|
| message with each other this week, and meet back here next
|
|
| Sunday...OK?
|
|
Ron | OK
|
|
Joe Balsamo: ok
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**********************************************
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|
* THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo *
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|
********************************************** |