1401 lines
49 KiB
Plaintext
1401 lines
49 KiB
Plaintext
SUBJECT: ANOTHER BILL ENGLISH INTERVIEW FILE: UFO2905
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Sat 12 Sep 92 1:35
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By: John Powell
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To: All
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Re: Bill English Interview
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
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[I've removed most of the "uh's", "um's", etc.; most of the
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extraneous stuff. I've included "..." to indicate when the speaker was
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interrupted and "--" to indicate when the speaker was rambling or when the
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speaker was briefly, and unimportantly, interrupted. The interviewer is RB
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and Bill English is BE. I take full responsibility for typographical and
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spelling errors. I take absolutely no responsibility for content and
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context errors.]
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
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INTERVIEW WITH BILL ENGLISH: 6/28/91
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85 KOA-Denver, Colorado
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Interviewer: Rick Barbour
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RB: My guest this hour is a guy by the name of Bill English and Bill is
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a Colorado boy although he's out of town right now. And he's got a
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story to tell that's quite something. Good morning Bill.
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BE: Good morning Rick. How are you?
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RB: I'm all right, thanks. Why don't you kind of start this story by
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how you came to be the fugitive.
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BE: Well, in 1977 while working for the United States government at a
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place called RAF Chicksands in England, which is a security services
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command base, I was a data analyst and I was asked to analyze a
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document which came across my desk and material in the document was
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pretty astounding.
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RB: What was in the document?
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BE: Well, the document was entitled Grudge Blue Book Report Number 13.
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RB: Okay, now, Blue Book, if everybody remembers, was the Air Force
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study of UFO sightings, right?
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BE: Right. It was Book Number 13 was also the book that they claimed
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was never published.
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RB: Uh huh, that was the last in the series?
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BE: No, there was -- there were thirteen books but they were numbered
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one through twelve and they skipped thirteen and went directly to
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number fourteen.
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RB: Now everybody would say where's thirteen?
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BE: Uh, exactly. Well, the government tried to cover it up by saying
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that they never printed the book number thirteen because of
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superstition.
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RB: Superstition?
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BE: Superstition. Number thirteen being unlucky.
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RB: Oh, I see. Okay. All right.
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BE: And uh, I've uh...
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RB: Interesting that the Pentagon is superstitious. I had no idea.
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BE: Well, it's never been my experience before, but that was the story
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they were telling everybody. But when I analyzed the document, what
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it was, was a compilation of everything the government had with
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regards to uh, unidentified flying objects.
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RB: Now, you mean physical evidence?
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BE: Physical evidence to include aliens.
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RB: Uh, this now, the Blue Book Project lasted from when to when?
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BE: Uh, I'm not sure exactly what the exact dates are at this point.
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RB: Well, it started what, in the late 50's or late -- no, late 40's I
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guess, wasn't it?
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BE: Late 40's exactly. Actually it started before that with Project
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Grudge.
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RB: Huh? Project Grudge?
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BE: Right. Which was a -- the initial investigation into reports of
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what they termed at that time as Foo Fighters, which many of the
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World War II pilots were reporting.
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RB: They were called 'what' fighters?
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BE: Foo.
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RB: How do you spell that?
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BE: F-O-O.
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RB: Foo?
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BE: Foo.
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RB: Foo. Was that an acronym for something?
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BE: Uh, no, that was just the name they tagged them with, the pilots
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did. They were termed Foo Fighters and they started investigating
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them with Project Grudge and then after the war years the Project
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Grudge was redesignated Project Blue Book.
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RB: Okay. Of course at this time the Army Air Corps become the Air
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Force.
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BE: Right.
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RB: All right. And so now the Air Force started this Project Blue Book.
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Now, it was also because of right after the war -- late forties
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during the atomic bomb project and subsequent to the testing area,
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or era, that there was supposed to be a rash of sightings in that --
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the late forties or early fifties, right?
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BE: Exactly, and those sightings -- the very first recorded sighting,
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official recorded sighting, took place at Mt. Rainier, Washington.
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I'm sorry, Mt. Rainier, Maryland. And --
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RB: Mt. Rainier, Maryland?
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BE: Right. And after that there were several dozens of sightings.
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Washington at one point in the mid-fifties was buzzed by UFO's --
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Washington, D.C. -- the Capital Building.
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RB: Was buzzed by a UFO?
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BE: UFO's. --
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RB: By several?
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BE: Several.
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RB: And this is when?
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BE: The mid-fifties, I believe it was.
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RB: Okay. Now was this widely seen and reported?
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BE: Well, it was widely seen and it was reported somewhat until it was
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suddenly stopped by executive order. And --
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RB: Well, the mid-fifties I would have been -- Ike?
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BE: I believe so, right.
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RB: So, Ike said no publicity. Is that right?
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BE: Right.
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RB: Of course by then it'd be a little late wouldn't it? It's like
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letting -- letting -- closing the gate after the horse has split.
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BE: Well, you've got to remember that back in those times the government
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could do no wrong and whenever something was requested for the good
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of the security of the nation, most everybody kept their mouth shut.
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RB: I see. Okay, so this was perceived as the good of the nation by not
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reporting what everybody saw.
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BE: Right. They didn't want to cause widespread panic.
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RB: Uh, well, I thought word of mouth is sort of the way panic works, if
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some -- if everybody in downtown D.C. had seen it, by then they'd
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know in Baltimore an hour later.
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BE: Well, I think they were operating under the premise that if it wound
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up in newspapers and that kind of thing, then there really would be
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a problem.
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RB: Were there any photographs?
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BE: There were several dozen.
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RB: Oh really?
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BE: Uh, and uh, at one point, the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization
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right here in Tucson, Arizona had those photographs, but with the
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demise of Jim and Cora (Lorenzen), then the founders of APRO, the
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records disappeared for several years until they were recovered
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recently by the International Center for UFO Studies in Scottsdale,
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Arizona.
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RB: Okay, now all of this information was sort of, shall we say
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discouraged, if not quashed --
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BE: Right.
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RB: Uh, this was in the mid-fifties. Now Project Blue Book was well on
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its way by this time.
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BE: By this time it was and way in through the years we've discovered
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that Project Blue Book turned out to be an eyewash program for the
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public. Over 90% of the recorded sightings that they reported on,
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and this does not include the ones that they did not report on, were
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classified as explainable. But in point of fact, there was a higher
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percentage that were not -- was not explainable, but they never
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released these reports.
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RB: All right, now, you -- let's go back to what happened to you, you
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came across this number thirteen book.
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BE: Well, it's Blue Book report number thirteen.
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RB: Okay. Now what was in it that was so interesting? I mean, physical
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evidence of alien machines and alien bodies, is that part of --
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BE: Well, there were several -- several dozens of photographs and among
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those photographs they had photographs of recovered vehicles or
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discs. They had photographs of autopsy reports of aliens --
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RB: Now was this -- was this a copy of that report or was this the
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report?
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BE: Well, it was an annotated version of a report that had been
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published in the early 70's, around 1972. And I viewed the document
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in 1977 at RAF Chicksands. And between '72 and '77 they had added
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several more pages, in fact the report itself was about six hundred
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pages long. There were, well photographs of autopsies on aliens,
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there were reports of human mutilations.
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RB: Human mutilations?
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BE: Human mutilations.
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RB: Now, how did that get in there and how does that fit into anything?
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BE: Well, it was a -- it was a compilation of everything that they knew
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at that time concerning UFOs. And they had everything in there.
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And I personally believe that the designation, Grudge Blue Book 13,
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was a mistake on their part. But, in point of fact, that's what it
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was titled and the material that was in -- there was a report which
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apparently was being circulated around to various governments, and
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it came into my hands while I was working as a data analyst at RAF
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Chicksands.
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RB: Okay, now the report was being passed around to allied military
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personnel and intelligence personnel to share the data, right?
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BE: Well not only allied, but the last designated place it had been,
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according to the transportation sheet, which was attached to the
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pouch it was in, was at Moscow.
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RB: Really? Okay, now, you found this book somehow. How did it come to
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get in that stack you were looking at, I mean did they give it to
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you to analyze or, I mean, on purpose or, I mean since it would --
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would have been prepared by the Air Force, why would you -- why
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would you end up analyzing it?
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BE: Well, my job designation was data analyst for security services
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command and essentially what my job was to do was take information
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and analyze it for its validity. RAF Chicksands was a security
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listening post and we monitored radio transmissions from Soviet Bloc
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nations. And those transmissions were translated, and then it was
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my job to take the information that was obtained and analyze it to
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try and make determination as to whether or not the information was
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factual.
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RB: Well, that is information that -- that was to see if it was part of
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misinformation or disinformation too?
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BE: Right.
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RB: Okay, so, in other words, you were just trying to see if they were
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catching on to stuff that we didn't know about, and stuff that we'd
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been feeding them that they were regurgitating, just to see if it
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was working?
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BE: Right.
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RB: Okay. The spy game?
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BE: Yeah.
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RB: Yeah, okay.
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BE: Essentially that's what it was.
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RB: All right. So, along comes this report, though what if you were
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analyzing the data from the Russians and listening post from
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wherever it is you're listening, how would you end up with this
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book?
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BE: Well, specifically my job was to analyze whatever came across my
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desk, and on this particular day the duty officer who brought us our
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daily assignments, which we signed for, brought this document in a
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diplomatic pouch and unsealed it there. I signed for it and I was
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in my little cubbyhole --
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RB: Was that a mistake do you think?
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BE: Uh, I don't believe so.
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RB: Well, the reason I ask is, this is -- this was -- this particular
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document was more than just top secret, right?
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BE: Oh, very much higher than top secret.
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RB: So, why would such a document just end up in the hands of an unknown
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analyst somewhere in Britain --
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BE: Well, I don't know that I was unknown, I was the best there was at
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the time --
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RB: Well, all right, I don't want to impugn your work, nor your
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capabilities, the point is, that from the Pentagon's point of view
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you were just one more cog in a very big wheel --
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BE: Yeah.
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RB: So, this kind of information is obviously shocking I suppose, to
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reality as we understand it, comes to you as an analyst. I think
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that it would seem rather odd that it would just sort of end up in
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your cubbyhole for analysis. I mean, it's not -- this ain't just
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any old document, right?
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BE: No, it wasn't any old document. I believe that there was a reason
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because there were some photographs which I had taken while in
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Vietnam. I was in Vietnam from 1970 to '72, and we had a recovery
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mission over in the jungles in Laos, a downed aircraft. And we were
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given the assignment to go into Laos and recover the aircraft and
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recover, if possible, surviving crew members, what they told us were
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flight recorders and those kind of thing, and which we did. We went
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in and we found the aircraft. It had not crashed. It was an
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extremely unusual situation.
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RB: How so?
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BE: Well, there was no crash damage to the surrounding jungle. The
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aircraft was not destroyed. It looked as though it had been placed
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there in the jungle by a great big giant hand. When we gained access
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to the aircraft, we went in through one of the hatches. When we
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gained access to the aircraft, the entire crew was still in their
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seats, strapped in their safety harnesses and mutilated.
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RB: Mutilated?
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BE: Mutilated. And originally we thought at that time that it was the
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work of VC.
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RB: Yeah, well it would be a reasonable thought, of course. What kind
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of a plane was it?
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BE: It -- we were told it was a B52 and I've always assumed it was.
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RB: Well, I mean, B52s are hard to mistake.
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BE: Yeah, it was a very large aircraft.
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RB: Yeah, well, a B52 everybody can recognize. I mean...
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BE: There's been some controversy over what it was over the past couple
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years, but in fact it was a B52.
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RB: So, a B52 was sitting in the jungle undamaged, no crash damage to
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the surrounding jungle growth, and as you say, looked like it had
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been taken and placed there by a giant hand from the sky...
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BE: A load of bombs in the bomb bays.
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RB: So, it was a B52.
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BE: And the crew, the entire crew was still in their jump suits.
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RB: Okay, now it seems that whatever happened, had happened
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instantaneously, but it didn't look like it had actually crashed so,
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the puzzle was, how did the plane this size end up in the jungle,
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not damaged, everybody in their flight suits, mutilated?
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BE: Well, we don't know --
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RB: I mean, that must have been what you were thinking.
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BE: Well, that's true, but also you have to bear in mind that we were
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operating in enemy territory and we -- everybody get in and get out
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as fast as we could.
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RB: Yeah, but you did take photographs.
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BE: Oh yes, I did take the photographs, I collected dog tags. We found
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no survivors. We recovered the black boxes that were on aircraft,
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where we were told they were located. And then we placed satchel
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charges throughout the aircraft and destroyed it with the bodies in
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it.
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RB: Why would they do that?
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BE: Why would we do what? Destroy the aircraft?
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RB: Yeah. I mean, unless it was flyable, but even then how do you get
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it out of a jungle?
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BE: There were several hundred thousand tons of bombs on the thing --
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RB: Ah, well, there you are, okay. But you blew it up in place with the
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bodies on board?
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BE: The bodies in it. We -- there was no possible way we could
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transport the bodies out.
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RB: Yeah, so they were listed as KIA, and that was that.
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BE: Killed in action. And -- we turned in the material that we got and
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-- the black boxes, the photographs and the dog tags and whatever
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records that we found on the aircraft to MAC-V headquarters in
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Saigon and we forgot about it.
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RB: Okay, it was just another mission. All right. Now, it's some years
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later, you're in London and along comes the Blue Book and your
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photos are in it.
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BE: Right.
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RB: Okay and it was -- do you think maybe that's why you got the book,
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'cause it was -- some of it was yours?
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BE: It was -- it's very possible. At the time that we were sent in on
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the mission, all we were told was an aircraft went down. When I
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viewed the report, there was a report attached to the photographs
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which stated that the aircraft had been in radio contact with its
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base and that it reported that it was under attack by bright objects
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and then all of a sudden the radio transmissions died.
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RB: White objects.
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BE: Very bright objects.
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RB: Oh, bright objects.
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BE: Bright objects.
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RB: Glowing, bright objects and that was all they had.
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BE: Yeah.
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RB: I see. After that it was blank and then you got the call to go in
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and get the stuff. Okay, so it comes across your desk. I'm going
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to take a break and when we come back, we're going to pick it up
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what happened after that.
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RB: You -- you got the book and you took a look and saw what was in it.
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All right, as an analyst dealing with top secret information all the
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time, what made this -- what happened when you saw all of this, I
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mean, as an analyst, what was your responses as you, Bill English,
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what was your response?
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BE: Well, as an analyst, I wasn't sure what I was looking at. As Bill
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English, I was pretty -- pretty incredulous until I started taking a
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closer look at the material that was in it.
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RB: And what did you see, what did you find?
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BE: Well, among other -- among other things there were various technical
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reports and reports from very well known people, among them was Dr.
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J. Allen Hynek. I remember Hynek's comments very -- very clearly.
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He stated that although he had not seen the physical evidence
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firsthand, based on the report that he had seen, he felt that it was
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true.
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RB: That what was true?
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BE: That the report and the material within the report was true.
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RB: And the material was again, was the information on the physical
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evidence of these, whatever they were.
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BE: Right.
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RB: Yeah. What did the book assume all of this was? I mean, what did
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it?
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BE: Well, there was no assumption at all, it clearly stated that this
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was material that had been recovered from various crash sites around
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the country and several South American and European nations. It very
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clearly stated that it was of alien origin, not of this Earth.
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RB: Oh, and so it said that this was from outer space?
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BE: Right.
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RB: And didn't make any bones about it?
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BE: None whatsoever.
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RB: Okay, so there you are, incredulously saying, "My God, the
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government says there really are UFOs and here's the pictures and
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all the locations of physical evidence to prove it." So, again, how
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do you get to be the fugitive?
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BE: Well, essentially what happened was, after I analyzed the document,
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I turned in my report as per regulations. Signed the document back
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over to the officer of the day and promptly forgot about it.
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RB: And promptly forgot about it?
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BE: Well, as much as I was able to. You know, we didn't discuss our
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work --
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RB: No, I understand. That's a professional requirement. But
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incredulity doesn't lead to just forget about it.
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BE: Uh, no, but you don't talk about things like that and you just sort
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of mull it over and then you get on with your life. As best you're
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able.
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RB: Okay.
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BE: About two weeks after viewing the document, I reported for work one
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morning and was told that the base commander wanted to see me and
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was escorted there by two air security policemen. After waiting
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for, I guess about thirty or forty minutes, I was escorted into the
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BC's office, and uh --
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RB: That's the base commander.
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BE: Base commander. And -- was promptly informed by him that my
|
|
services were no longer needed and that I was being returned to the
|
|
United States.
|
|
|
|
RB: Um hmm. Any reason given?
|
|
|
|
BE: Not -- not then. I promptly replied -- you know, because at that
|
|
time -- my wife at that time was a schoolteacher for Department of
|
|
Defense schools at RAF Chicksands, and I promptly informed him that
|
|
since technically if I was no longer employed by the government I
|
|
became a dependent husband. Because she was employed by Department
|
|
of Defense schools that I'd just go home. And he politely informed
|
|
me, in no uncertain terms that I was being removed from Great
|
|
Britain and sent back to the United States. And I then asked him if
|
|
I could please call my wife and let her know what was going on --
|
|
|
|
RB: Now you -- they meant to return you immediately?
|
|
|
|
BE: Immediately.
|
|
|
|
RB: You mean that -- that afternoon?
|
|
|
|
BE: That day.
|
|
|
|
RB: My. Normally things don't work that fast in the military that I
|
|
remember.
|
|
|
|
BE: Me either, but when I asked to call my wife at the school, where she
|
|
was at, at the time, I was told no.
|
|
|
|
RB: Now, had you figured that something was amiss, that you were being
|
|
treated this way for something you allegedly had done?
|
|
|
|
BE: I didn't know what to think at the time, because my efficiency
|
|
reports at that point were very good. I'd had no problems in my job
|
|
whatsoever.
|
|
|
|
RB: So -- but you had to assume something was going on here.
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, I did. And I asked you know -- you know, okay, what's the
|
|
problem. Have I broken a regulation or something, and he said no,
|
|
your services are no longer needed, period. And you're being sent
|
|
back to the States.
|
|
|
|
RB: Right now.
|
|
|
|
BE: Right now.
|
|
|
|
RB: Right bloody now.
|
|
|
|
BE: Right. And when I requested permission to call my wife at the
|
|
school to let her know what was happening, permission was refused.
|
|
And I was escorted by two air security policemen to RAF Lakeinheath
|
|
[sp] where I was put on an immediate flight.
|
|
|
|
RB: You didn't even get to pack.
|
|
|
|
BE: Not even.
|
|
|
|
RB: Not even a toothbrush.
|
|
|
|
BE: Not even.
|
|
|
|
RB: (whistles.) Boy, so you were flown back to the states --
|
|
|
|
BE: Flown back to the states --
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay and again --
|
|
|
|
BE: (unintelligible.)
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay so what happens to make you the fugitive? I mean, so far it's
|
|
begun to build up to something, but --
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, uh, at this point I didn't know quite what to do and had tried
|
|
several times to contact my family directly and then through
|
|
friends, and at all turns I was thwarted.
|
|
|
|
RB: They wouldn't let you contact your family?
|
|
|
|
BE: Uh, no, every time I tried to call -- call my home in England, the
|
|
-- a man's voice would answer. And I was told that those
|
|
individuals were no longer there.
|
|
|
|
RB: Well, and of course you wanted to know -- well where are they?
|
|
|
|
BE: Yeah and of -- and they hung up on me.
|
|
|
|
RB: I see.
|
|
|
|
BE: And then when I tried contacting friends that lived in England --
|
|
who knew my wife and asked them to pass a message on to her, they --
|
|
I would call their phone number and the same man's voice would
|
|
answer.
|
|
|
|
RB: Uh huh. I see.
|
|
|
|
BE: By this time I had met a gentleman by the name of Stanton Friedman
|
|
who is a fairly well known investigator of the phenomena, and told
|
|
him my story, what was going on and everything and Jim Lorenzen and
|
|
the head of APRO at that time very graciously made his records
|
|
available to me --
|
|
|
|
RB: I would think at this time you would get an attorney.
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, it was a pretty confusing situation.
|
|
|
|
RB: Well, yeah, but I mean, you're being -- you're being taken
|
|
immediately out of country, not even to contact your family, how --
|
|
I don't know how many weeks it was that they wouldn't let you get in
|
|
contact with your family. They're obviously distraught. You're
|
|
distraught. It seems to me that you -- the first thing you'd want
|
|
to do is to get an attorney to see what the heck's going on here --
|
|
|
|
BE: We tried and every time I did, no attorney would touch it.
|
|
|
|
RB: No attorney would touch it?
|
|
|
|
BE: No attorney would touch it, they would --
|
|
|
|
RB: Did you go to the press with this sort of stuff?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, uh --
|
|
|
|
RB: I mean, this is not -- this is not ordinary, everyday behavior for
|
|
the government is it, I mean --
|
|
|
|
BE: No, it's not. And I didn't go to the press, I went to my father.
|
|
|
|
RB: Uh huh. And how could he help?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, my father at that time was a member of the Arizona State
|
|
Legislature.
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay.
|
|
|
|
BE: And we were friends of -- our family was friends of the Barry
|
|
Goldwater family. And we asked if they could look into it, and I
|
|
have letters in my file right now which Goldwater had sent back to
|
|
us, stating quite frankly, he was told to mind his own business.
|
|
|
|
RB: Now, he happens to be a reserve general in the Air Force.
|
|
|
|
BE: Right.
|
|
|
|
RB: Well, and he was also a U.S. Senator at that time. To have him mind
|
|
his own business is a little extraordinary.
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, he was --
|
|
|
|
RB: I mean, I -- it is his business, isn't it? I mean to find out
|
|
what's going on in the military?
|
|
|
|
BE: I would think so. But, he was, he got letters and he was flat out
|
|
told to mind his own business and stay out of it or he would regret
|
|
it.
|
|
|
|
RB: That he would regret it?
|
|
|
|
BE: Uh huh.
|
|
|
|
RB: Did you see the letters sent to him?
|
|
|
|
BE: I have copies of the letters in my files.
|
|
|
|
RB: That he would regret -- and from whence came those letters?
|
|
|
|
BE: Uh --
|
|
|
|
RB: From the Pentagon?
|
|
|
|
BE: No, they're -- according to Senator Goldwater at the time, he went
|
|
directly and asked for information.
|
|
|
|
RB: He went directly to what, the English base?
|
|
|
|
BE: No. The Department of Defense.
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay, the Pentagon.
|
|
|
|
BE: The Pentagon. Was told to mind his own business.
|
|
|
|
RB: And he got these letters saying -- as such, right?
|
|
|
|
BE: Now, well these are letters that he sent to me.
|
|
|
|
RB: Uh huh. And he got -- and you got copies of letters that were sent
|
|
to him telling to butt out?
|
|
|
|
BE: Right.
|
|
|
|
RB: Who were they signed by?
|
|
|
|
BE: Umm, there is no signature as far as I could tell. These letters
|
|
were letters that he had written to me.
|
|
|
|
RB: Oh, I see, I see. So you don't have the copies of the actual
|
|
letters he received --
|
|
|
|
BE: Actual letters, no.
|
|
|
|
RB: So meanwhile, your family is still in England, hidden someplace.
|
|
For how long is it by now?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, now it's -- it was -- it's been almost fifteen years.
|
|
|
|
RB: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Your family has been
|
|
missing for fifteen years?
|
|
|
|
BE: Uh, up until a week ago.
|
|
|
|
RB: Up until a week ago?
|
|
|
|
BE: I'm very pleased to say that there is -- there is a happy ending to
|
|
part of the story.
|
|
|
|
RB: Well this is too bizarre for words. You'd -- you were -- fifteen
|
|
years and you've just been reunited with your wife and children
|
|
after fifteen years?
|
|
|
|
BE: Fifteen years. I met my sons and my wife yesterday morning.
|
|
|
|
RB: My god, then I've got to ask the question. What -- did they tell
|
|
you what the hell happened?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well --
|
|
|
|
RB: I mean, where have they been for fifteen years?
|
|
|
|
BE: Fifteen years they've been in England.
|
|
|
|
RB: Yeah, but I mean under the protection of some --
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, uh, according to my wife, what happened was, is that I didn't
|
|
come home and she called over to work to find out what was going on.
|
|
They referred her to the base commander's office and the base
|
|
commander, according to her, informed her that I walked in, turned
|
|
in my resignation and requested an immediate flight out of the
|
|
country.
|
|
|
|
RB: I see.
|
|
|
|
BE: And she assumed at that point that I had deserted the family.
|
|
|
|
RB: Why would she assume that?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, you go to work in the morning and you come home and you find
|
|
your husband not there and --
|
|
|
|
RB: No, I got to tell you something. The last thing I'd assume if my
|
|
wife didn't show up is that she was abandoning. I mean, the thing is
|
|
to say, this is bizarre, what the hell's going on here?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, this is what she told me what they had told her.
|
|
|
|
RB: I'm sure they -- whatever they said, but it's your wife. I mean, to
|
|
readily assume that that was, that she -- that you'd abandon her, I
|
|
mean, why would she assume that?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, I really don't know at that point. You know, I can't speak
|
|
for what happened from her end other than what she's told me took
|
|
place, but very shortly --
|
|
|
|
RB: But what about the idea when you called to reach her and the strange
|
|
man's voice. What was that all about?
|
|
|
|
BE: According to her, she never received any phone calls from me.
|
|
|
|
RB: Well, you never talked to her that's --
|
|
|
|
BE: Weeks and weeks, and --
|
|
|
|
RB: Didn't you write letters?
|
|
|
|
BE: Oh, I wrote several dozen letters.
|
|
|
|
RB: She never got one?
|
|
|
|
BE: Never got 'em.
|
|
|
|
RB: Never got 'em.
|
|
|
|
BE: Never got 'em.
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay. So, she -- you were reunited just yesterday?
|
|
|
|
BE: Just yesterday.
|
|
|
|
RB: And so she's been there for fifteen years, and you've never been
|
|
able to contact her that whole time. Didn't you ever go back to
|
|
England?
|
|
|
|
BE: No, because my passport was revoked.
|
|
|
|
RB: I see. For what reason?
|
|
|
|
BE: There was a question about my birth certificate.
|
|
|
|
RB: Why, what's wrong with your birth certificate?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, according to the government, the birth certificate, which I
|
|
had originally submitted for my passport application, was invalid.
|
|
|
|
RB: Why?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, it was a hospital birth certificate, which was issued in 1952.
|
|
And not a state birth certificate. And when we tried to find a
|
|
state birth certificate in Albuquerque or Santa Fe, because I was
|
|
born in New Mexico, there was one -- there was nothing there.
|
|
|
|
RB: In other words, according to state records, you were never born?
|
|
|
|
BE: Right.
|
|
|
|
RB: Interesting. All right, so now -- your wife is back and now you've
|
|
-- kind of pieced together that end. Meanwhile though, you've
|
|
suddenly ended up being, kind of, again, as they say, kind of the
|
|
guy on the run. How -- you're back here in the country, what
|
|
happened that made you the guy on the run?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, about two years after I returned from England, I managed to
|
|
get my life somewhat together and then opened up a small business in
|
|
Tucson, Arizona. And one day, in walk Colonel Robert Black, who was
|
|
then base commander at RAF Chicksands, and his operations Sergeant
|
|
Stone.
|
|
|
|
RB: Is this the guy that fired you?
|
|
|
|
BE: This is the guy who fired me.
|
|
|
|
RB: Uh huh. And this is -- this is then two years later, after that
|
|
incident.
|
|
|
|
BE: Right.
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay. He strolls in with his Sarg.
|
|
|
|
BE: Right.
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay.
|
|
|
|
BE: They tell me that they were cashiered out of the service and forced
|
|
to retire early. --
|
|
|
|
RB: Sort of like what happened to you?
|
|
|
|
BE: Yeah, and primarily because of the documents that I had viewed. And
|
|
we sat and talked about it. Among other things they had told me
|
|
that they were separated from their families and this, that and the
|
|
other and they knew what was going on. And among other things that
|
|
they told me was the fact that they had information which said that
|
|
there was a UFO buried at White Sands Missile Test Range.
|
|
|
|
RB: Uh huh.
|
|
|
|
BE: The reason why it was there, and it was buried was because it was
|
|
too big to transport.
|
|
|
|
RB: All right.
|
|
|
|
BE: And after a great deal of discussion, they convinced me that it
|
|
would might not be a bad idea to try and find evidence of this UFO
|
|
and make it public.
|
|
|
|
RB: That would not be a bad idea.
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, I sort of agreed with them at the time and I ultimately sold
|
|
my business and put the money that I got out of the business into
|
|
the pot, so to speak, and we purchased a vehicle which we outfitted
|
|
with sand tires and camping equipment and we brought a radar -- a
|
|
marine radar unit from a marine shop and put it on the van and we
|
|
had sound detectors and magnetometers and everything and metal
|
|
detectors and camping gear.
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay. So, then you're heading to White Sands.
|
|
|
|
BE: And we were heading to New Mexico.
|
|
|
|
RB: All right, so you get down to White Sands, and how did you get on
|
|
the reservation? I --
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, several locations. We went all up and down both sides and the
|
|
top of the missile range perimeter. And on several locations we
|
|
crossed through the fences and very briefly looked around and
|
|
everything and ultimately we wound up White Sands -- wound up at
|
|
White Sands National Park. The monument. Back in those days, you
|
|
used to be able to go out onto the -- out onto the sand dunes at
|
|
night and camp out. Since then, they no longer do that. But
|
|
ultimately we went into the National Park and kept on going across
|
|
the dunes with this sand vehicle that we had outfitted, crossed
|
|
through the fences north of the national monument and went directly
|
|
onto the range. Very stupidly, I might add, but in any case, it was
|
|
about sundown and we were sort of travelling along. I was outside
|
|
of the van with the metal detector and -- in front of the van lights
|
|
and they were in the van and I heard a very familiar old sound from
|
|
Vietnam and just immediately went face first into the dirt.
|
|
|
|
RB: Incoming.
|
|
|
|
BE: Yeah, exactly. And the next thing I know the van is confetti.
|
|
|
|
RB: Is what?
|
|
|
|
BE: Confetti. I mean this thing was just blown to pieces.
|
|
|
|
RB: Uh huh. So --
|
|
|
|
BE: And then it --
|
|
|
|
RB: So it was hit with an explosive.
|
|
|
|
BE: Uh, hit with -- with a missile of some kind.
|
|
|
|
RB: Uh huh.
|
|
|
|
BE: And I'm not proud because I'll admit to you that it scared me badly
|
|
and I took off at a dead run.
|
|
|
|
RB: Well, that's understandable.
|
|
|
|
BE: And, -- I eventually made my way off the range and was able to
|
|
hitchhike back to Tucson, Arizona.
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay. And hold that because we have to take a break and I guess at
|
|
this point I guess you are now on the run.
|
|
|
|
BE: At this point, I am just about to go on the run.
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay, you got back to Tucson. You hitchhiked back from Arizona,
|
|
from White Sands, New Mexico down to Tucson, and then what?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, I wound up at a friend's house who's another UFO investigator
|
|
by the name of Wendell Stevens. And almost drowned in his pool
|
|
trying to find my way to his backyard. And Wendell, much to his
|
|
credit, when I was scratching on the window, let me in without
|
|
sticking a gun up my nose. And I told him what had happened and he
|
|
fed me and let me shower and gave me a shirt and took me back to my
|
|
apartment in Tucson.
|
|
|
|
RB: Now when -- when -- when was this?
|
|
|
|
BE: This is 1979.
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay. '79. Okay, so you're there kinda getting yourself put back
|
|
together.
|
|
|
|
BE: Yeah, and telling Wendell what was going on. And Wendell took me
|
|
back to my apartment, and we came to my apartment, there was a big
|
|
black car parked in front of the apartment. So I asked Wendell to
|
|
drop me off about two blocks down, and I snuck in through the back
|
|
door, through the alley. And for three days I kept looking out the
|
|
curtain window and there this car sat. Until finally, one day I
|
|
called a friend and packed my stuff, and moved out and rented a
|
|
trailer on the east side of Tucson and sold everything off and
|
|
bought a backpack and some camping equipment and took off.
|
|
|
|
RB: And, was on the run.
|
|
|
|
BE: Was on the run.
|
|
|
|
RB: All right. Now let's go to the telephone. Derek in Denver:
|
|
|
|
Derek: 7 seconds before it's on the radio.
|
|
|
|
RB: Seven seconds? What?
|
|
|
|
Derek: Oh, oops, Hi Rick.
|
|
|
|
RB: Hi Derek.
|
|
|
|
Derek: Hello.
|
|
|
|
RB: Go ahead, Bill's -- Bill's on the other side there.
|
|
|
|
Derek: Hi Bill. I just wanted to ask you a quick question and then I'll
|
|
hang up. You know, can you touch UFOs?
|
|
|
|
BE: I don't know. I personally have never touched one. I've heard of
|
|
-- I've got several -- several hundred case reports of people who
|
|
say that they have, so I -- I personally, I don't know but I would
|
|
assume that you can.
|
|
|
|
RB: Well, if it's made of mass of some solid object, I guess you can
|
|
touch a solid object. Do you mean can he touch it when it's --
|
|
cause of radiation, or what?
|
|
|
|
Derek: No, just like, touch it, like, you how -- you know, like how you
|
|
touch a person.
|
|
|
|
RB: Yeah, you mean like a solid object.
|
|
|
|
Derek: Yeah.
|
|
|
|
RB: Yeah, a solid -- in other words, is it a solid object?
|
|
|
|
Derek: Yeah.
|
|
|
|
RB: I guess, what's -- the answer is yes.
|
|
|
|
Derek: All right Rick, thanks.
|
|
|
|
RB: All right Derek. And let's go to Bill in Denver.
|
|
|
|
Bill: Yes, you know, this sounds almost like we need the zither in Orson
|
|
Welles with the third man theme.
|
|
|
|
RB: Yeah, it sure does.
|
|
|
|
Bill: And remember our friend John, Rick. Years ago?
|
|
|
|
RB: Oh yes, of course I do. Anyway, go ahead and ask Bill a question.
|
|
|
|
Bill: Well, it isn't a matter of asking the question, uh, it's a matter
|
|
-- I don't know of any Mt. Rainier in Maryland. As a matter of
|
|
fact, when I was in Maryland, I never saw a mountain in Maryland.
|
|
Mt. Rainier is in Washington.
|
|
|
|
BE: You're absolutely right and I stand corrected. It is in Washington.
|
|
|
|
Bill: The man that first saw them was a fellow named Kenneth Arnold. I
|
|
instructed the civilian flight instructor with Cabbage Hill [sp]
|
|
in Pendleton. And I don't know what Ken was drinking that day but
|
|
he had quite a mysterious thing, of course they wrote stories in
|
|
Argosy, Henry Wismer, the newsman was saying, you know, we know
|
|
what it is, it's good news, it's our ships and everything else.
|
|
When in fact they didn't know squat. And as you know Rick, I have
|
|
a little bit of history with respect to the posture like Barry
|
|
Goldwater's. And I just -- I've known Barry Goldwater for years
|
|
and I can't imagine anybody telling that man something like that.
|
|
|
|
BE: We found that's astounding too, but I've got his letters.
|
|
|
|
RB: Did you ever talk to the senator directly, and say, Senator, that
|
|
you're being told to butt out?
|
|
|
|
BE: I haven't, but Senator Goldwater did appear on Larry King show and
|
|
he told Larry King that he had -- later on had asked for permission
|
|
to go into a storage facility located at Wright-Patterson Air Force
|
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Base and permission was denied.
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Bill: I don't know how the hell you deny a man like that permission to
|
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do whatever he wants to do.
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BE: I have no idea, but he was flat out told no.
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Bill: Were you by chance with DIA?
|
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|
|
BE: No, I wasn't.
|
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|
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Bill: You weren't. Because all of the trappings and all the traces that
|
|
you talk about, monitoring the radio broadcasts, radio books and
|
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this type thing, smacks of what I used to do when I was the DIA.
|
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BE: It was a division of NSA.
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Bill: It was division of NSA.
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RB: All right.
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Bill: You know George Keagan. You remember George Keagan?
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BE: The name is familiar.
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Bill: George Keagan was the Air Force general, George Keagan. He was
|
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the one that was stomping for particle beam weapons and thought,
|
|
of course, that the Russians had been here for years. This is
|
|
about as viable, I think, as -- do you recall a story of Paul
|
|
Mantell?
|
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BE: Yes, as a matter of fact, I do.
|
|
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Bill: I knew Paul Mantell. Paul Mantell allegedly had a P51 blasted out
|
|
of the sky. I've flown P51s, I've instructed for P51s and P51s
|
|
don't get blasted out of the sky. When a man thinks he sees
|
|
something that he can't climb fast enough to get, and he climbs
|
|
fast enough -- or climbs as fast as he can in a P51, it has a
|
|
tendency to stall. And when it stalls it goes into an incredibly
|
|
sickening flat spin. And when it hits the ground, there's not
|
|
much left of it.
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, isn't that what they -- what the official report was that
|
|
happened to him?
|
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|
|
Bill: I think it was. He was a National Guard pilot. I think in Montana
|
|
or Minnesota.
|
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|
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RB: Well, nevertheless, your point is, is that he didn't get zapped, he
|
|
just went into a spin and crashed.
|
|
|
|
Bill: You know, it still sounds like H.G. Welles and it sounds like Star
|
|
Trek and --
|
|
|
|
RB: But, it's interesting, isn't it?
|
|
|
|
Bill: Well, I don't know whether it is or not. You know, Little Orphan
|
|
Annie is interesting if you don't mind Sandy going Arf! Arf!
|
|
|
|
RB: No, Bill, you see, you're trying to mistake reality with
|
|
entertainment.
|
|
|
|
Bill: Well, last time I saw entertainment, the sheriff closed it, you
|
|
know before the --
|
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|
|
RB: Well, see, and Lord knows I'm trying to keep ahead of the sheriff
|
|
Bill.
|
|
|
|
Bill: Okay, Rick.
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay. Talk to you later. And let's continue on the telephone with,
|
|
let's see, where do we go from here, he said. Let's go to Jean in
|
|
Cap Hill. Hi Jean.
|
|
|
|
Jean: Yes, I'm sorry to have to ask this, but I missed the very first
|
|
part of it and I just wondered if you could please reiterate for
|
|
me what was so dangerous about what you read. The general gist of
|
|
it that would make it so they would do this to you.
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, I believe that it was classified information that was not
|
|
intended to be released and they were afraid that I would make it
|
|
public.
|
|
|
|
Jean: Well, I mean what was the gist of this classified information?
|
|
|
|
RB: UFOs.
|
|
|
|
Jean: But, why is -- why was that information so much dangerous than any
|
|
other that has come out?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, essentially what it was, was the government admitting that the
|
|
UFOs existed and that they had physical evidence of it. And that
|
|
they had been lying to the people for years and years and years. In
|
|
the past, a lot of people have referred to this as a Cosmic
|
|
Watergate. And can you imagine the difficulties it would cause if
|
|
the government was to come out tomorrow and admit that, yeah there
|
|
are UFOs and yes, we've known about them for years and we've covered
|
|
it up to the point where we've even committed murder.
|
|
|
|
RB: There's your answer Jean.
|
|
|
|
Jean: All right. Thank you.
|
|
|
|
RB: Okay. In Colorado Springs, Jeff. You're on with my guest, Bill
|
|
English.
|
|
|
|
Jeff: Yes, thanks Bill. I just wanted to know if you're going to be
|
|
speaking anywhere in the Denver area soon.
|
|
|
|
BE: No, I haven't been invited, but I am going to be speaking in
|
|
Orlando, Florida at the end of August at Walt Disney World.
|
|
|
|
RB: Walt Disney World?
|
|
|
|
BE: Walt Disney World.
|
|
|
|
RB: Fascinating.
|
|
|
|
Jeff: Well, how long are you going to be in the area?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, I'll be in Orlando for a week --
|
|
|
|
Jeff: Oh, I see, you're calling from there.
|
|
|
|
RB: No, he's not. Right now he's in Tucson.
|
|
|
|
BE: I'm in Arizona.
|
|
|
|
Jeff: I tuned in late, okay.
|
|
|
|
RB: You should never tune in late, you miss so much.
|
|
|
|
Jeff: Now -- now Rick, on your show a couple of months ago, I heard
|
|
where this person announced that he was going to be coming out
|
|
with a special on abductions. Do you know anything about that
|
|
Bill, and why there was a delay on that?
|
|
|
|
BE: Which --
|
|
|
|
Jeff: It's supposed to be in -- It was supposed to be this last February --
|
|
|
|
BE: There have been so many different programs on abductions in the last
|
|
several months it's -- I'm having a difficult time pinning it down.
|
|
|
|
Jeff: It particularly pertained to MJ-12 and --
|
|
|
|
BE: That would probably be Bob Lazar on Current Affairs.
|
|
|
|
Jeff: Oh, well, yeah -- do you know of the latest on that situation?
|
|
|
|
BE: Uh, well, the latest is that we have been able to prove that Bob
|
|
Lazar did in fact work at Los Alamos. We've got --
|
|
|
|
RB: You better fill us in now, you've brought him up.
|
|
|
|
Jeff: I'm sorry about that. I'm going to let you guys go, but that's an
|
|
extremely interesting story and please do Bill, please explain Bob
|
|
Lazar in detail.
|
|
|
|
RB: All right. Okay. Bob Lazar in de -- well Bob Lazar not quite in
|
|
detail.
|
|
|
|
BE: Bob Lazar is a gentleman who claimed he worked for the government at
|
|
a test site in Nevada of the Atomic Energy Commission range in a
|
|
place called area 51 S4. And he claimed that part of his job was to
|
|
work as a physicist and analyze and test fly UFOs that the
|
|
government had captured. At first, his claims were pretty
|
|
outlandish and were thought to be, but he passed two out of three
|
|
lie detector tests. We were able to determine that he did in fact
|
|
work at Los Alamos National Laboratories. Two ways. One, his name
|
|
was listed in the Los Alamos phone book, in the physics department.
|
|
And I personally went up to Los Alamos and visited the Ray Bradbury
|
|
science museum up there. And there was a picture of Bob Lazar out
|
|
on display called the Los Alamos employees in the community.
|
|
|
|
RB: So, suffice to say he used to work there.
|
|
|
|
BE: He used to work there. We have not been able to make any real
|
|
determination as to whether or not he worked in area S4 or area 51.
|
|
This is more popularly known at the Nevada test site, however,
|
|
recently Bob did receive a W2 form from the Navy for that time
|
|
period he says he worked at that area.
|
|
|
|
RB: So, he was there. So what happened to Bob?
|
|
|
|
BE: Maybe he was, yeah.
|
|
|
|
RB: What happened to Bob?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, Bob is currently living in Las Vegas. He is on probation.
|
|
|
|
RB: For what?
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, when all this stuff became public and George Knapp aired the
|
|
initial report on local television in Las Vegas, Bob was arrested
|
|
because he installed a business computer system in a house of ill
|
|
repute. And he was charged with criminal solicitation.
|
|
|
|
RB: I see. I see, okay. So, --
|
|
|
|
BE: Installed a business -- business machine in a whore house.
|
|
|
|
RB: Well, then, that'll get you every time. Let's go back to the
|
|
telephone. In Oklahoma, Gene.
|
|
|
|
Gene: Hi Rick. I'd like to ask your guest, what's his name?
|
|
|
|
RB: Bill English.
|
|
|
|
Gene: Okay. Have you heard of an author, and he was in the Air Force,
|
|
in Australia by the name of Stan Deyo?
|
|
|
|
BE: Yeah as a matter of fact I have. He wrote a book about Australia
|
|
and UFOs.
|
|
|
|
Gene: Cosmic Conspiracy?
|
|
|
|
BE: Uh huh.
|
|
|
|
Gene: Okay. Is he pretty valid? He had some really weird things to
|
|
say.
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, uh. He's about as valid as you can get under the
|
|
circumstances.
|
|
|
|
Gene: His stories sound something like yours other than the kidnapping
|
|
and things, or so called. He was working a lot with low frequency
|
|
soundwaves and magnetic fields for steering UFOs. Pretty
|
|
interesting book, but I used to sell books and I had to give mine
|
|
away and then I had a real hard time getting that book again.
|
|
|
|
RB: All right. All right Gene. Thanks a lot. 623-8585, the number in
|
|
Denver, Gene.
|
|
|
|
Gene: Hello Rick.
|
|
|
|
RB: Yeah, you're on.
|
|
|
|
Gene: Yeah, really is that a -- Sir, you are a very unusual man.
|
|
|
|
BE: Thank you. I'm not sure whether that's a curse or a compliment.
|
|
|
|
Gene: That's a compliment sir. As recently as your last encounter with
|
|
some of the people who are -- you are leaving behind in going, God
|
|
knows where, what were they like when they - - before you picked
|
|
up these files. Were they like --
|
|
|
|
RB: They, being the government?
|
|
|
|
Gene: They being the government on the -- on the -- you know, where you
|
|
used to work at --
|
|
|
|
RB: You mean, in England?
|
|
|
|
Gene: In England, yeah.
|
|
|
|
RB: Where he worked with his colleagues and the base and all that jazz.
|
|
And you want to know were they -- everything was on the up and up
|
|
and suddenly everything went weird, right? Is that the question?
|
|
|
|
Gene: Yeah, I mean, what like -- did they put it as a plant to get you
|
|
to do this?
|
|
|
|
RB: To see if they could get rid of him.
|
|
|
|
Gene: To get rid of you.
|
|
|
|
BE: You know, throughout the years I've always said that's it's a
|
|
possibility that the material that I viewed was fraudulent, but I
|
|
don't think it was.
|
|
|
|
RB: In other words, it was put there so they could have an excuse to
|
|
dump you? But what an elaborate scheme to do so.
|
|
|
|
BE: I don't think it was put there as an excuse to dump me. I think, if
|
|
anything, it possibly could have been an elaborate plan to create
|
|
this information.
|
|
|
|
RB: Uh huh. By the government?
|
|
|
|
BE: By the government.
|
|
|
|
RB: Well, then if they're going to do that, we'd have told everybody
|
|
about the copy 13 and then we'd all read it and say, see how silly
|
|
it is.
|
|
|
|
BE: Well, that's possible, but like I said before, I don't believe it
|
|
was.
|
|
|
|
Gene: Oh, I've been out to New Mexico.
|
|
|
|
RB: Yeah, well, so have I, but anyway. 623-8585. Joe in Greeley. Hi.
|
|
|
|
Joe: Hi. I wanted to ask him -- Bill English, that's his name?
|
|
|
|
RB: That's his name, yeah.
|
|
|
|
Joe: I've read something, I don't remember where it was at, but it was
|
|
something on a hangar. Where the government had a crashed UFO.
|
|
They took the bodies to this thing --
|
|
|
|
BE: You're referring to --
|
|
|
|
RB: Hangar 18.
|
|
|
|
BE: Hangar 18.
|
|
|
|
Joe: That's it. I just wanted to know the validity of that?
|
|
|
|
BE: There is no such thing as Hanger 18. However, there is a Hangar 13.
|
|
|
|
RB: And that's at Wright-Pat, isn't it?
|
|
|
|
BE: That's at Wright-Patterson and that's --
|
|
|
|
RB: And that's in, what, Ohio?
|
|
|
|
BE: Uh-huh.
|
|
|
|
RB: Yeah.
|
|
|
|
BE: And that's where they -- it's reputed they've been storing this. We
|
|
did come across information about a year ago from a gentleman who
|
|
was at Wright-Patterson when they brought the material from Roswell
|
|
there, who claim that he was invited to view the bodies.
|
|
|
|
[end of tape, nearly end of interview.]
|
|
---------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
|
|
Thanks, take care.
|
|
John.
|
|
-
|
|
<Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence>
|
|
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|
|
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**********************************************
|
|
* THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo *
|
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********************************************** |