textfiles/ufo/UFOBBS/2000/2905.ufo

SUBJECT: ANOTHER BILL ENGLISH INTERVIEW                      FILE: UFO2905




Sat 12 Sep 92  1:35
By: John Powell
To: All
Re: Bill English Interview
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[I've removed most of the "uh's", "um's", etc.; most of the
extraneous stuff.  I've included "..." to indicate when the speaker was
interrupted and "--" to indicate when the speaker was rambling or when the
speaker was briefly, and unimportantly, interrupted.  The interviewer is RB
and Bill English is BE.  I take full responsibility for typographical and
spelling errors.  I take absolutely no responsibility for content and
context errors.]
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INTERVIEW WITH BILL ENGLISH: 6/28/91
85 KOA-Denver, Colorado
Interviewer: Rick Barbour

RB: My guest this hour is a guy by the name of Bill English and Bill is
    a Colorado boy although he's out of town right now.  And he's got a
    story to tell that's quite something. Good morning Bill.

BE: Good morning Rick.  How are you?

RB: I'm all right, thanks.  Why don't you kind of start this story by
    how you came to be the fugitive.

BE: Well, in 1977 while working for the United States government at a
    place called RAF Chicksands in England, which is a security services
    command base, I was a data analyst and I was asked to analyze a
    document which came across my desk and material in the document was
    pretty astounding.

RB: What was in the document?

BE: Well, the document was entitled Grudge Blue Book Report Number 13.

RB: Okay, now, Blue Book, if everybody remembers, was the Air Force
    study of UFO sightings, right?

BE: Right.  It was Book Number 13 was also the book that they claimed
    was never published.

RB: Uh huh, that was the last in the series?

BE: No, there was -- there were thirteen books but they were numbered
    one through twelve and they skipped thirteen and went directly to
    number fourteen.

RB: Now everybody would say where's thirteen?

BE: Uh, exactly.  Well, the government tried to cover it up by saying
    that they never printed the book number thirteen because of
    superstition.

RB: Superstition?

BE: Superstition.  Number thirteen being unlucky.

RB: Oh, I see.  Okay.  All right.

BE: And uh, I've uh...

RB: Interesting that the Pentagon is superstitious.  I had no idea.

BE: Well, it's never been my experience before, but that was the story
    they were telling everybody.  But when I analyzed the document, what
    it was, was a compilation of everything the government had with
    regards to uh, unidentified flying objects.

RB: Now, you mean physical evidence?

BE: Physical evidence to include aliens.

RB: Uh, this now, the Blue Book Project lasted from when to when?

BE: Uh, I'm not sure exactly what the exact dates are at this point.

RB: Well, it started what, in the late 50's or late -- no, late 40's I
    guess, wasn't it?

BE: Late 40's exactly.  Actually it started before that with Project
    Grudge.

RB: Huh?  Project Grudge?

BE: Right.  Which was a -- the initial investigation into reports of
    what they termed at that time as Foo Fighters, which many of the
    World War II pilots were reporting.

RB: They were called 'what' fighters?

BE: Foo.

RB: How do you spell that?

BE: F-O-O.

RB: Foo?

BE: Foo.

RB: Foo.  Was that an acronym for something?

BE: Uh, no, that was just the name they tagged them with, the pilots
    did.  They were termed Foo Fighters and they started investigating
    them with Project Grudge and then after the war years the Project
    Grudge was redesignated Project Blue Book.

RB: Okay.  Of course at this time the Army Air Corps become the Air
    Force.

BE: Right.

RB: All right.  And so now the Air Force started this Project Blue Book.
    Now, it was also because of right after the war -- late forties
    during the atomic bomb project and subsequent to the testing area,
    or era, that there was supposed to be a rash of sightings in that --
    the late forties or early fifties, right?

BE: Exactly, and those sightings -- the very first recorded sighting,
    official recorded sighting, took place at Mt. Rainier, Washington.
    I'm sorry, Mt. Rainier, Maryland.  And --

RB: Mt. Rainier, Maryland?

BE: Right.  And after that there were several dozens of sightings.
    Washington at one point in the mid-fifties was buzzed by UFO's --
    Washington, D.C. -- the Capital Building.

RB: Was buzzed by a UFO?

BE: UFO's.  --

RB: By several?

BE: Several.

RB: And this is when?

BE: The mid-fifties, I believe it was.

RB: Okay.  Now was this widely seen and reported?

BE: Well, it was widely seen and it was reported somewhat until it was
    suddenly stopped by executive order.  And --

RB: Well, the mid-fifties I would have been -- Ike?

BE: I believe so, right.

RB: So, Ike said no publicity.  Is that right?

BE: Right.

RB: Of course by then it'd be a little late wouldn't it?  It's like
    letting -- letting -- closing the gate after the horse has split.

BE: Well, you've got to remember that back in those times the government
    could do no wrong and whenever something was requested for the good
    of the security of the nation, most everybody kept their mouth shut.

RB: I see.  Okay, so this was perceived as the good of the nation by not
    reporting what everybody saw.

BE: Right.  They didn't want to cause widespread panic.

RB: Uh, well, I thought word of mouth is sort of the way panic works, if
    some -- if everybody in downtown D.C. had seen it, by then they'd
    know in Baltimore an hour later.

BE: Well, I think they were operating under the premise that if it wound
    up in newspapers and that kind of thing, then there really would be
    a problem.

RB: Were there any photographs?

BE: There were several dozen.

RB: Oh really?

BE: Uh, and uh, at one point, the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization
    right here in Tucson, Arizona had those photographs, but with the
    demise of Jim and Cora (Lorenzen), then the founders of APRO, the
    records disappeared for several years until they were recovered
    recently by the International Center for UFO Studies in Scottsdale,
    Arizona.

RB: Okay, now all of this information was sort of, shall we say
    discouraged, if not quashed --

BE: Right.

RB: Uh, this was in the mid-fifties.  Now Project Blue Book was well on
    its way by this time.

BE: By this time it was and way in through the years we've discovered
    that Project Blue Book turned out to be an eyewash program for the
    public.  Over 90% of the recorded sightings that they reported on,
    and this does not include the ones that they did not report on, were
    classified as explainable.  But in point of fact, there was a higher
    percentage that were not -- was not explainable, but they never
    released these reports.

RB: All right, now, you -- let's go back to what happened to you, you
    came across this number thirteen book.

BE: Well, it's Blue Book report number thirteen.

RB: Okay.  Now what was in it that was so interesting? I mean, physical
    evidence of alien machines and alien bodies, is that part of --

BE: Well, there were several -- several dozens of photographs and among
    those photographs they had photographs of recovered vehicles or
    discs.  They had photographs of autopsy reports of aliens --

RB: Now was this -- was this a copy of that report or was this the
    report?

BE: Well, it was an annotated version of a report that had been
    published in the early 70's, around 1972.  And I viewed the document
    in 1977 at RAF Chicksands.  And between '72 and '77 they had added
    several more pages, in fact the report itself was about six hundred
    pages long.  There were, well photographs of autopsies on aliens,
    there were reports of human mutilations.

RB: Human mutilations?

BE: Human mutilations.

RB: Now, how did that get in there and how does that fit into anything?

BE: Well, it was a -- it was a compilation of everything that they knew
    at that time concerning UFOs.  And they had everything in there.
    And I personally believe that the designation, Grudge Blue Book 13,
    was a mistake on their part. But, in point of fact, that's what it
    was titled and the material that was in -- there was a report which
    apparently was being circulated around to various governments, and
    it came into my hands while I was working as a data analyst at RAF
    Chicksands.

RB: Okay, now the report was being passed around to allied military
    personnel and intelligence personnel to share the data, right?

BE: Well not only allied, but the last designated place it had been,
    according to the transportation sheet, which was attached to the
    pouch it was in, was at Moscow.

RB: Really?  Okay, now, you found this book somehow. How did it come to
    get in that stack you were looking at, I mean did they give it to
    you to analyze or, I mean, on purpose or, I mean since it would --
    would have been prepared by the Air Force, why would you -- why
    would you end up analyzing it?

BE: Well, my job designation was data analyst for security services
    command and essentially what my job was to do was take information
    and analyze it for its validity.  RAF Chicksands was a security
    listening post and we monitored radio transmissions from Soviet Bloc
    nations.  And those transmissions were translated, and then it was
    my job to take the information that was obtained and analyze it to
    try and make determination as to whether or not the information was
    factual.

RB: Well, that is information that -- that was to see if it was part of
    misinformation or disinformation too?

BE: Right.

RB: Okay, so, in other words, you were just trying to see if they were
    catching on to stuff that we didn't know about, and stuff that we'd
    been feeding them that they were regurgitating, just to see if it
    was working?

BE: Right.

RB: Okay.  The spy game?

BE: Yeah.

RB: Yeah, okay.

BE: Essentially that's what it was.

RB: All right.  So, along comes this report, though what if you were
    analyzing the data from the Russians and listening post from
    wherever it is you're listening, how would you end up with this
    book?

BE: Well, specifically my job was to analyze whatever came across my
    desk, and on this particular day the duty officer who brought us our
    daily assignments, which we signed for, brought this document in a
    diplomatic pouch and unsealed it there.  I signed for it and I was
    in my little cubbyhole --

RB: Was that a mistake do you think?

BE: Uh, I don't believe so.

RB: Well, the reason I ask is, this is -- this was -- this particular
    document was more than just top secret, right?

BE: Oh, very much higher than top secret.

RB: So, why would such a document just end up in the hands of an unknown
    analyst somewhere in Britain --

BE: Well, I don't know that I was unknown, I was the best there was at
    the time --

RB: Well, all right, I don't want to impugn your work, nor your
    capabilities, the point is, that from the Pentagon's point of view
    you were just one more cog in a very big wheel --

BE: Yeah.

RB: So, this kind of information is obviously shocking I suppose, to
    reality as we understand it, comes to you as an analyst.  I think
    that it would seem rather odd that it would just sort of end up in
    your cubbyhole for analysis.  I mean, it's not -- this ain't just
    any old document, right?

BE: No, it wasn't any old document.  I believe that there was a reason
    because there were some photographs which I had taken while in
    Vietnam.  I was in Vietnam from 1970 to '72, and we had a recovery
    mission over in the jungles in Laos, a downed aircraft.  And we were
    given the assignment to go into Laos and recover the aircraft and
    recover, if possible, surviving crew members, what they told us were
    flight recorders and those kind of thing, and which we did.  We went
    in and we found the aircraft.  It had not crashed.  It was an
    extremely unusual situation.

RB: How so?

BE: Well, there was no crash damage to the surrounding jungle.  The
    aircraft was not destroyed.  It looked as though it had been placed
    there in the jungle by a great big giant hand. When we gained access
    to the aircraft, we went in through one of the hatches.  When we
    gained access to the aircraft, the entire crew was still in their
    seats, strapped in their safety harnesses and mutilated.

RB: Mutilated?

BE: Mutilated.  And originally we thought at that time that it was the
    work of VC.

RB: Yeah, well it would be a reasonable thought, of course.  What kind
    of a plane was it?

BE: It -- we were told it was a B52 and I've always assumed it was.

RB: Well, I mean, B52s are hard to mistake.

BE: Yeah, it was a very large aircraft.

RB: Yeah, well, a B52 everybody can recognize.  I mean...

BE: There's been some controversy over what it was over the past couple
    years, but in fact it was a B52.

RB: So, a B52 was sitting in the jungle undamaged, no crash damage to
    the surrounding jungle growth, and as you say, looked like it had
    been taken and placed there by a giant hand from the sky...

BE: A load of bombs in the bomb bays.

RB: So, it was a B52.

BE: And the crew, the entire crew was still in their jump suits.

RB: Okay, now it seems that whatever happened, had happened
    instantaneously, but it didn't look like it had actually crashed so,
    the puzzle was, how did the plane this size end up in the jungle,
    not damaged, everybody in their flight suits, mutilated?

BE: Well, we don't know --

RB: I mean, that must have been what you were thinking.

BE: Well, that's true, but also you have to bear in mind that we were
    operating in enemy territory and we -- everybody get in and get out
    as fast as we could.

RB: Yeah, but you did take photographs.

BE: Oh yes, I did take the photographs, I collected dog tags.  We found
    no survivors.  We recovered the black boxes that were on aircraft,
    where we were told they were located.  And then we placed satchel
    charges throughout the aircraft and destroyed it with the bodies in
    it.

RB: Why would they do that?

BE: Why would we do what?  Destroy the aircraft?

RB: Yeah.  I mean, unless it was flyable, but even then how do you get
    it out of a jungle?

BE: There were several hundred thousand tons of bombs on the thing --

RB: Ah, well, there you are, okay.  But you blew it up in place with the
    bodies on board?

BE: The bodies in it.  We -- there was no possible way we could
    transport the bodies out.

RB: Yeah, so they were listed as KIA, and that was that.

BE: Killed in action.  And -- we turned in the material that we got and
    --  the black boxes, the photographs and the dog tags and whatever
    records that we found on the aircraft to MAC-V headquarters in
    Saigon and we forgot about it.

RB: Okay, it was just another mission.  All right. Now, it's some years
    later, you're in London and along comes the Blue Book and your
    photos are in it.

BE: Right.

RB: Okay and it was -- do you think maybe that's why you got the book,
    'cause it was -- some of it was yours?

BE: It was -- it's very possible.  At the time that we were sent in on
    the mission, all we were told was an aircraft went down.  When I
    viewed the report, there was a report attached to the photographs
    which stated that the aircraft had been in radio contact with its
    base and that it reported that it was under attack by bright objects
    and then all of a sudden the radio transmissions died.

RB: White objects.

BE: Very bright objects.

RB: Oh, bright objects.

BE: Bright objects.

RB: Glowing, bright objects and that was all they had.

BE: Yeah.

RB: I see.  After that it was blank and then you got the call to go in
    and get the stuff.  Okay, so it comes across your desk.  I'm going
    to take a break and when we come back, we're going to pick it up
    what happened after that.

RB: You -- you got the book and you took a look and saw what was in it.
    All right, as an analyst dealing with top secret information all the
    time, what made this -- what happened when you saw all of this, I
    mean, as an analyst, what was your responses as you, Bill English,
    what was your response?

BE: Well, as an analyst, I wasn't sure what I was looking at.  As Bill
    English, I was pretty -- pretty incredulous until I started taking a
    closer look at the material that was in it.

RB: And what did you see, what did you find?

BE: Well, among other -- among other things there were various technical
    reports and reports from very well known people, among them was Dr.
    J. Allen Hynek.  I remember Hynek's comments very -- very clearly.
    He stated that although he had not seen the physical evidence
    firsthand, based on the report that he had seen, he felt that it was
    true.

RB: That what was true?

BE: That the report and the material within the report was true.

RB: And the material was again, was the information on the physical
    evidence of these, whatever they were.

BE: Right.

RB: Yeah.  What did the book assume all of this was? I mean, what did
    it?

BE: Well, there was no assumption at all, it clearly stated that this
    was material that had been recovered from various crash sites around
    the country and several South American and European nations.  It very
    clearly stated that it was of alien origin, not of this Earth.

RB: Oh, and so it said that this was from outer space?

BE: Right.

RB: And didn't make any bones about it?

BE: None whatsoever.

RB: Okay, so there you are, incredulously saying, "My God, the
    government says there really are UFOs and here's the pictures and
    all the locations of physical evidence to prove it." So, again, how
    do you get to be the fugitive?

BE: Well, essentially what happened was, after I analyzed the document,
    I turned in my report as per regulations. Signed the document back
    over to the officer of the day and promptly forgot about it.

RB: And promptly forgot about it?

BE: Well, as much as I was able to.  You know, we didn't discuss our
    work --

RB: No, I understand.  That's a professional requirement.  But
    incredulity doesn't lead to just forget about it.

BE: Uh, no, but you don't talk about things like that and you just sort
    of mull it over and then you get on with your life.  As best you're
    able.

RB: Okay.

BE: About two weeks after viewing the document, I reported for work one
    morning and was told that the base commander wanted to see me and
    was escorted there by two air security policemen.  After waiting
    for, I guess about thirty or forty minutes, I was escorted into the
    BC's office, and uh --

RB: That's the base commander.

BE: Base commander.  And -- was promptly informed by him that my
    services were no longer needed and that I was being returned to the
    United States.

RB: Um hmm.  Any reason given?

BE: Not -- not then.  I promptly replied -- you know, because at that
    time -- my wife at that time was a schoolteacher for Department of
    Defense schools at RAF Chicksands, and I promptly informed him that
    since technically if I was no longer employed by the government I
    became a dependent husband.  Because she was employed by Department
    of Defense schools that I'd just go home.  And he politely informed
    me, in no uncertain terms that I was being removed from Great
    Britain and sent back to the United States.  And I then asked him if
    I could please call my wife and let her know what was going on --

RB: Now you -- they meant to return you immediately?

BE: Immediately.

RB: You mean that -- that afternoon?

BE: That day.

RB: My.  Normally things don't work that fast in the military that I
    remember.

BE: Me either, but when I asked to call my wife at the school, where she
    was at, at the time, I was told no.

RB: Now, had you figured that something was amiss, that you were being
    treated this way for something you allegedly had done?

BE: I didn't know what to think at the time, because my efficiency
    reports at that point were very good.  I'd had no problems in my job
    whatsoever.

RB: So -- but you had to assume something was going on here.

BE: Well, I did.  And I asked you know -- you know, okay, what's the
    problem.  Have I broken a regulation or something, and he said no,
    your services are no longer needed, period.  And you're being sent
    back to the States.

RB: Right now.

BE: Right now.

RB: Right bloody now.

BE: Right.  And when I requested permission to call my wife at the
    school to let her know what was happening, permission was refused.
    And I was escorted by two air security policemen to RAF Lakeinheath
    [sp] where I was put on an immediate flight.

RB: You didn't even get to pack.

BE: Not even.

RB: Not even a toothbrush.

BE: Not even.

RB: (whistles.)  Boy, so you were flown back to the states --

BE: Flown back to the states --

RB: Okay and again --

BE: (unintelligible.)

RB: Okay so what happens to make you the fugitive?  I mean, so far it's
    begun to build up to something, but --

BE: Well, uh, at this point I didn't know quite what to do and had tried
    several times to contact my family directly and then through
    friends, and at all turns I was thwarted.

RB: They wouldn't let you contact your family?

BE: Uh, no, every time I tried to call -- call my home in England, the
    -- a man's voice would answer.  And I was told that those
    individuals were no longer there.

RB: Well, and of course you wanted to know -- well where are they?

BE: Yeah and of -- and they hung up on me.

RB: I see.

BE: And then when I tried contacting friends that lived in England --
    who knew my wife and asked them to pass a message on to her, they --
    I would call their phone number and the same man's voice would
    answer.

RB: Uh huh.  I see.

BE: By this time I had met a gentleman by the name of Stanton Friedman
    who is a fairly well known investigator of the phenomena, and told
    him my story, what was going on and everything and Jim Lorenzen and
    the head of APRO at that time very graciously made his records
    available to me --

RB: I would think at this time you would get an attorney.

BE: Well, it was a pretty confusing situation.

RB: Well, yeah, but I mean, you're being -- you're being taken
    immediately out of country, not even to contact your family, how --
    I don't know how many weeks it was that they wouldn't let you get in
    contact with your family.  They're obviously distraught.  You're
    distraught.  It seems to me that you -- the first thing you'd want
    to do is to get an attorney to see what the heck's going on here --

BE: We tried and every time I did, no attorney would touch it.

RB: No attorney would touch it?

BE: No attorney would touch it, they would --

RB: Did you go to the press with this sort of stuff?

BE: Well, uh --

RB: I mean, this is not -- this is not ordinary, everyday behavior for
    the government is it, I mean --

BE: No, it's not.  And I didn't go to the press, I went to my father.

RB: Uh huh.  And how could he help?

BE: Well, my father at that time was a member of the Arizona State
    Legislature.

RB: Okay.

BE: And we were friends of -- our family was friends of the Barry
    Goldwater family.  And we asked if they could look into it, and I
    have letters in my file right now which Goldwater had sent back to
    us, stating quite frankly, he was told to mind his own business.

RB: Now, he happens to be a reserve general in the Air Force.

BE: Right.

RB: Well, and he was also a U.S. Senator at that time. To have him mind
    his own business is a little extraordinary.

BE: Well, he was --

RB: I mean, I -- it is his business, isn't it?  I mean to find out
    what's going on in the military?

BE: I would think so.  But, he was, he got letters and he was flat out
    told to mind his own business and stay out of it or he would regret
    it.

RB: That he would regret it?

BE: Uh huh.

RB: Did you see the letters sent to him?

BE: I have copies of the letters in my files.

RB: That he would regret -- and from whence came those letters?

BE: Uh --

RB: From the Pentagon?

BE: No, they're -- according to Senator Goldwater at the time, he went
    directly and asked for information.

RB: He went directly to what, the English base?

BE: No.  The Department of Defense.

RB: Okay, the Pentagon.

BE: The Pentagon.  Was told to mind his own business.

RB: And he got these letters saying -- as such, right?

BE: Now, well these are letters that he sent to me.

RB: Uh huh.  And he got -- and you got copies of letters that were sent
    to him telling to butt out?

BE: Right.

RB: Who were they signed by?

BE: Umm, there is no signature as far as I could tell. These letters
    were letters that he had written to me.

RB: Oh, I see, I see.  So you don't have the copies of the actual
    letters he received --

BE: Actual letters, no.

RB: So meanwhile, your family is still in England, hidden someplace.
    For how long is it by now?

BE: Well, now it's -- it was -- it's been almost fifteen years.

RB: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.  Your family has been
    missing for fifteen years?

BE: Uh, up until a week ago.

RB: Up until a week ago?

BE: I'm very pleased to say that there is -- there is a happy ending to
    part of the story.

RB: Well this is too bizarre for words.  You'd -- you were -- fifteen
    years and you've just been reunited with your wife and children
    after fifteen years?

BE: Fifteen years.  I met my sons and my wife yesterday morning.

RB: My god, then I've got to ask the question.  What -- did they tell
    you what the hell happened?

BE: Well --

RB: I mean, where have they been for fifteen years?

BE: Fifteen years they've been in England.

RB: Yeah, but I mean under the protection of some --

BE: Well, uh, according to my wife, what happened was, is that I didn't
    come home and she called over to work to find out what was going on.
    They referred her to the base commander's office and the base
    commander, according to her, informed her that I walked in, turned
    in my resignation and requested an immediate flight out of the
    country.

RB: I see.

BE: And she assumed at that point that I had deserted the family.

RB: Why would she assume that?

BE: Well, you go to work in the morning and you come home and you find
    your husband not there and --

RB: No, I got to tell you something.  The last thing I'd assume if my
    wife didn't show up is that she was abandoning. I mean, the thing is
    to say, this is bizarre, what the hell's going on here?

BE: Well, this is what she told me what they had told her.

RB: I'm sure they -- whatever they said, but it's your wife.  I mean, to
    readily assume that that was, that she -- that you'd abandon her, I
    mean, why would she assume that?

BE: Well, I really don't know at that point.  You know, I can't speak
    for what happened from her end other than what she's told me took
    place, but very shortly --

RB: But what about the idea when you called to reach her and the strange
    man's voice.  What was that all about?

BE: According to her, she never received any phone calls from me.

RB: Well, you never talked to her that's --

BE: Weeks and weeks, and --

RB: Didn't you write letters?

BE: Oh, I wrote several dozen letters.

RB: She never got one?

BE: Never got 'em.

RB: Never got 'em.

BE: Never got 'em.

RB: Okay.  So, she -- you were reunited just yesterday?

BE: Just yesterday.

RB: And so she's been there for fifteen years, and you've never been
    able to contact her that whole time.  Didn't you ever go back to
    England?

BE: No, because my passport was revoked.

RB: I see.  For what reason?

BE: There was a question about my birth certificate.

RB: Why, what's wrong with your birth certificate?

BE: Well, according to the government, the birth certificate, which I
    had originally submitted for my passport application, was invalid.

RB: Why?

BE: Well, it was a hospital birth certificate, which was issued in 1952.
    And not a state birth certificate.  And when we tried to find a
    state birth certificate in Albuquerque or Santa Fe, because I was
    born in New Mexico, there was one -- there was nothing there.

RB: In other words, according to state records, you were never born?

BE: Right.

RB: Interesting.  All right, so now -- your wife is back and now you've
    -- kind of pieced together that end. Meanwhile though, you've
    suddenly ended up being, kind of, again, as they say, kind of the
    guy on the run.  How -- you're back here in the country, what
    happened that made you the guy on the run?

BE: Well, about two years after I returned from England, I managed to
    get my life somewhat together and then opened up a small business in
    Tucson, Arizona.  And one day, in walk Colonel Robert Black, who was
    then base commander at RAF Chicksands, and his operations Sergeant
    Stone.

RB: Is this the guy that fired you?

BE: This is the guy who fired me.

RB: Uh huh.  And this is -- this is then two years later, after that
    incident.

BE: Right.

RB: Okay.  He strolls in with his Sarg.

BE: Right.

RB: Okay.

BE: They tell me that they were cashiered out of the service and forced
    to retire early. --

RB: Sort of like what happened to you?

BE: Yeah, and primarily because of the documents that I had viewed.  And
    we sat and talked about it.  Among other things they had told me
    that they were separated from their families and this, that and  the
    other and they knew what was going on.  And among other things that
    they told me was the fact that they had information which said that
    there was a UFO buried at White Sands Missile Test Range.

RB: Uh huh.

BE: The reason why it was there, and it was buried was because it was
    too big to transport.

RB: All right.

BE: And after a great deal of discussion, they convinced me that it
    would might not be a bad idea to try and find evidence of this UFO
    and make it public.

RB: That would not be a bad idea.

BE: Well, I sort of agreed with them at the time and I ultimately sold
    my business and put the money that I got out of the business into
    the pot, so to speak, and we purchased a vehicle which we outfitted
    with sand tires and camping equipment and we brought a radar -- a
    marine radar unit from a marine shop and put it on the van and we
    had sound detectors and magnetometers and everything and metal
    detectors and camping gear.

RB: Okay.  So, then you're heading to White Sands.

BE: And we were heading to New Mexico.

RB: All right, so you get down to White Sands, and how did you get on
    the reservation?  I --

BE: Well, several locations.  We went all up and down both sides and the
    top of the missile range perimeter.  And on several locations we
    crossed through the fences and very briefly looked around and
    everything and ultimately we wound up White Sands -- wound up at
    White Sands National Park.  The monument. Back in those days, you
    used to be able to go out onto the -- out onto the sand dunes at
    night and camp out.  Since then, they no longer do that.  But
    ultimately we went into the National Park and kept on going across
    the dunes with this sand vehicle that we had outfitted, crossed
    through the fences north of the national monument and went directly
    onto the range.  Very stupidly, I might add, but in any case, it was
    about sundown and we were sort of travelling along.  I was outside
    of the van with the metal detector and -- in front of the van lights
    and they were in the van and I heard a very familiar old sound from
    Vietnam and just immediately went face first into the dirt.

RB: Incoming.

BE: Yeah, exactly.  And the next thing I know the van is confetti.

RB: Is what?

BE: Confetti.  I mean this thing was just blown to pieces.

RB: Uh huh.  So --

BE: And then it --

RB: So it was hit with an explosive.

BE: Uh, hit with -- with a missile of some kind.

RB: Uh huh.

BE: And I'm not proud because I'll admit to you that it scared me badly
    and I took off at a dead run.

RB: Well, that's understandable.

BE: And, -- I eventually made my way off the range and was able to
    hitchhike back to Tucson, Arizona.

RB: Okay.  And hold that because we have to take a break and I guess at
    this point I guess you are now on the run.

BE: At this point, I am just about to go on the run.

RB: Okay, you got back to Tucson.  You hitchhiked back from Arizona,
    from White Sands, New Mexico down to Tucson, and then what?

BE: Well, I wound up at a friend's house who's another UFO investigator
    by the name of Wendell Stevens.  And almost drowned in his pool
    trying to find my way to his backyard.  And Wendell, much to his
    credit, when I was scratching on the window, let me in without
    sticking a gun up my nose.  And I told him what had happened and he
    fed me and let me shower and gave me a shirt and took me back to my
    apartment in Tucson.

RB: Now when -- when -- when was this?

BE: This is 1979.

RB: Okay.  '79.  Okay, so you're there kinda getting yourself put back
    together.

BE: Yeah, and telling Wendell what was going on.  And Wendell took me
    back to my apartment, and we came to my apartment, there was a big
    black car parked in front of the apartment.  So I asked Wendell to
    drop me off about two blocks down, and I snuck in through the back
    door, through the alley. And for three days I kept looking out the
    curtain window and there this car sat.  Until finally, one day I
    called a friend and packed my stuff, and moved out and rented a
    trailer on the east side of Tucson and sold everything off and
    bought a backpack and some camping equipment and took off.

RB: And, was on the run.

BE: Was on the run.

RB: All right.  Now let's go to the telephone.  Derek in Denver:

Derek: 7 seconds before it's on the radio.

RB: Seven seconds?  What?

Derek: Oh, oops, Hi Rick.

RB: Hi Derek.

Derek: Hello.

RB: Go ahead, Bill's -- Bill's on the other side there.

Derek: Hi Bill.  I just wanted to ask you a quick question and then I'll
       hang up.  You know, can you touch UFOs?

BE: I don't know.  I personally have never touched one.  I've heard of
    -- I've got several -- several hundred case reports of people who
    say that they have, so I -- I personally, I don't know but I would
    assume that you can.

RB: Well, if it's made of mass of some solid object, I guess you can
    touch a solid object.  Do you mean can he touch it when it's --
    cause of radiation, or what?

Derek: No, just like, touch it, like, you how -- you know, like how you
       touch a person.

RB: Yeah, you mean like a solid object.

Derek: Yeah.

RB: Yeah, a solid -- in other words, is it a solid object?

Derek: Yeah.

RB: I guess, what's -- the answer is yes.

Derek: All right Rick, thanks.

RB: All right Derek.  And let's go to Bill in Denver.

Bill: Yes, you know, this sounds almost like we need the zither in Orson
      Welles with the third man theme.

RB: Yeah, it sure does.

Bill: And remember our friend John, Rick.  Years ago?

RB: Oh yes, of course I do.  Anyway, go ahead and ask Bill a question.

Bill: Well, it isn't a matter of asking the question, uh, it's a matter
      -- I don't know of any Mt. Rainier in Maryland. As a matter of
      fact, when I was in Maryland, I never saw a mountain in Maryland.
      Mt. Rainier is in Washington.

BE: You're absolutely right and I stand corrected.  It is in Washington.

Bill: The man that first saw them was a fellow named Kenneth Arnold.  I
      instructed the civilian flight instructor with Cabbage Hill [sp]
      in Pendleton.  And I don't know what Ken was drinking that day but
      he had quite a mysterious thing, of course they wrote stories in
      Argosy, Henry Wismer, the newsman was saying, you know, we know
      what it is, it's good news, it's our ships and everything else.
      When in fact they didn't know squat. And as you know Rick, I have
      a little bit of history with respect to the posture like Barry
      Goldwater's.  And I just -- I've known Barry Goldwater for years
      and I can't imagine anybody telling that man something like that.

BE: We found that's astounding too, but I've got his letters.

RB: Did you ever talk to the senator directly, and say, Senator, that
    you're being told to butt out?

BE: I haven't, but Senator Goldwater did appear on Larry King show and
    he told Larry King that he had -- later on had asked for permission
    to go into a storage facility located at Wright-Patterson Air Force
    Base and permission was denied.

Bill: I don't know how the hell you deny a man like that permission to
      do whatever he wants to do.

BE: I have no idea, but he was flat out told no.

Bill: Were you by chance with DIA?

BE: No, I wasn't.

Bill: You weren't.  Because all of the trappings and all the traces that
      you talk about, monitoring the radio broadcasts, radio books and
      this type thing, smacks of what I used to do when I was the DIA.

BE: It was a division of NSA.

Bill: It was division of NSA.

RB: All right.

Bill: You know George Keagan.  You remember George Keagan?

BE: The name is familiar.

Bill: George Keagan was the Air Force general, George Keagan.  He was
      the one that was stomping for particle beam weapons and thought,
      of course, that the Russians had been here for years.  This is
      about as viable, I think, as -- do you recall a story of Paul
      Mantell?

BE: Yes, as a matter of fact, I do.

Bill: I knew Paul Mantell.  Paul Mantell allegedly had a P51 blasted out
      of the sky.  I've flown P51s, I've instructed for P51s and P51s
      don't get blasted out of the sky.  When a man thinks he sees
      something that he can't climb fast enough to get, and he climbs
      fast enough -- or climbs as fast as he can in a P51, it has a
      tendency to stall.  And when it stalls it goes into an incredibly
      sickening flat spin.  And when it hits the ground, there's not
      much left of it.

BE: Well, isn't that what they -- what the official report was that
    happened to him?

Bill: I think it was.  He was a National Guard pilot. I think in Montana
      or Minnesota.

RB: Well, nevertheless, your point is, is that he didn't get zapped, he
    just went into a spin and crashed.

Bill: You know, it still sounds like H.G. Welles and it sounds like Star
      Trek and --

RB: But, it's interesting, isn't it?

Bill: Well, I don't know whether it is or not.  You know, Little Orphan
      Annie is interesting if you don't mind Sandy going Arf! Arf!

RB: No, Bill, you see, you're trying to mistake reality with
    entertainment.

Bill: Well, last time I saw entertainment, the sheriff closed it, you
      know before the --

RB: Well, see, and Lord knows I'm trying to keep ahead of the sheriff
    Bill.

Bill: Okay, Rick.

RB: Okay.  Talk to you later.  And let's continue on the telephone with,
    let's see, where do we go from here, he said. Let's go to Jean in
    Cap Hill.  Hi Jean.

Jean: Yes, I'm sorry to have to ask this, but I missed the very first
      part of it and I just wondered if you could please reiterate for
      me what was so dangerous about what you read.  The general gist of
      it that would make it so they would do this to you.

BE: Well, I believe that it was classified information that was not
    intended to be released and they were afraid that I would make it
    public.

Jean: Well, I mean what was the gist of this classified information?

RB: UFOs.

Jean: But, why is -- why was that information so much dangerous than any
      other that has come out?

BE: Well, essentially what it was, was the government admitting that the
    UFOs existed and that they had physical evidence of it.  And that
    they had been lying to the people for years and years and years.  In
    the past, a lot of people have referred to this as a Cosmic
    Watergate.  And can you imagine the difficulties it would cause if
    the government was to come out tomorrow and admit that, yeah there
    are UFOs and yes, we've known about them for years and we've covered
    it up to the point where we've even committed murder.

RB: There's your answer Jean.

Jean: All right.  Thank you.

RB: Okay.  In Colorado Springs, Jeff.  You're on with my guest, Bill
    English.

Jeff: Yes, thanks Bill.  I just wanted to know if you're going to be
      speaking anywhere in the Denver area soon.

BE: No, I haven't been invited, but I am going to be speaking in
    Orlando, Florida at the end of August at Walt Disney World.

RB: Walt Disney World?

BE: Walt Disney World.

RB: Fascinating.

Jeff: Well, how long are you going to be in the area?

BE: Well, I'll be in Orlando for a week --

Jeff: Oh, I see, you're calling from there.

RB: No, he's not.  Right now he's in Tucson.

BE: I'm in Arizona.

Jeff: I tuned in late, okay.

RB: You should never tune in late, you miss so much.

Jeff: Now -- now Rick, on your show a couple of months ago, I heard
      where this person announced that he was going to be coming out
      with a special on abductions.  Do you know anything about that
      Bill, and why there was a delay on that?

BE: Which --

Jeff: It's supposed to be in -- It was supposed to be this last February --

BE: There have been so many different programs on abductions in the last
    several months it's -- I'm having a difficult time pinning it down.

Jeff: It particularly pertained to MJ-12 and --

BE: That would probably be Bob Lazar on Current Affairs.

Jeff: Oh, well, yeah -- do you know of the latest on that situation?

BE: Uh, well, the latest is that we have been able to prove that Bob
    Lazar did in fact work at Los Alamos.  We've got --

RB: You better fill us in now, you've brought him up.

Jeff: I'm sorry about that.  I'm going to let you guys go, but that's an
      extremely interesting story and please do Bill, please explain Bob
      Lazar in detail.

RB: All right.  Okay.  Bob Lazar in de -- well Bob Lazar not quite in
    detail.

BE: Bob Lazar is a gentleman who claimed he worked for the government at
    a test site in Nevada of the Atomic Energy Commission range in a
    place called area 51 S4.  And he claimed that part of his job was to
    work as a physicist and analyze and test fly UFOs that the
    government had captured.  At first, his claims were pretty
    outlandish and were thought to be, but he passed two out of three
    lie detector tests.  We were able to determine that he did in fact
    work at Los Alamos National Laboratories.  Two ways.  One, his name
    was listed in the Los Alamos phone book, in the physics department.
    And I personally went up to Los Alamos and visited the Ray Bradbury
    science museum up there.  And there was a picture of Bob Lazar out
    on display called the Los Alamos employees in the community.

RB: So, suffice to say he used to work there.

BE: He used to work there.  We have not been able to make any real
    determination as to whether or not he worked in area S4 or area 51.
    This is more popularly known at the Nevada test site, however,
    recently Bob did receive a W2 form from the Navy for that time
    period he says he worked at that area.

RB: So, he was there.  So what happened to Bob?

BE: Maybe he was, yeah.

RB: What happened to Bob?

BE: Well, Bob is currently living in Las Vegas.  He is on probation.

RB: For what?

BE: Well, when all this stuff became public and George Knapp aired the
    initial report on local television in Las Vegas, Bob was arrested
    because he installed a business computer system in a house of ill
    repute.  And he was charged with criminal solicitation.

RB: I see.  I see, okay.  So, --

BE: Installed a business -- business machine in a whore house.

RB: Well, then, that'll get you every time.  Let's go back to the
    telephone.  In Oklahoma, Gene.

Gene: Hi Rick.  I'd like to ask your guest, what's his name?

RB: Bill English.

Gene: Okay.  Have you heard of an author, and he was in the Air Force,
      in Australia by the name of Stan Deyo?

BE: Yeah as a matter of fact I have.  He wrote a book about Australia
    and UFOs.

Gene: Cosmic Conspiracy?

BE: Uh huh.

Gene: Okay.  Is he pretty valid?  He had some really weird things to
      say.

BE: Well, uh.  He's about as valid as you can get under the
    circumstances.

Gene: His stories sound something like yours other than the kidnapping
      and things, or so called.  He was working a lot with low frequency
      soundwaves and magnetic fields for steering UFOs.  Pretty
      interesting book, but I used to sell books and I had to give mine
      away and then I had a real hard time getting that book again.

RB: All right.  All right Gene.  Thanks a lot.  623-8585, the number in
    Denver, Gene.

Gene: Hello Rick.

RB: Yeah, you're on.

Gene: Yeah, really is that a -- Sir, you are a very unusual man.

BE: Thank you.  I'm not sure whether that's a curse or a compliment.

Gene: That's a compliment sir.  As recently as your last encounter with
      some of the people who are -- you are leaving behind in going, God
      knows where, what were they like when they - - before you picked
      up these files.  Were they like --

RB: They, being the government?

Gene: They being the government on the -- on the -- you know, where you
      used to work at --

RB: You mean, in England?

Gene: In England, yeah.

RB: Where he worked with his colleagues and the base and all that jazz.
    And you want to know were they -- everything was on the up and up
    and suddenly everything went weird, right? Is that the question?

Gene: Yeah, I mean, what like -- did they put it as a plant to get you
      to do this?

RB: To see if they could get rid of him.

Gene: To get rid of you.

BE: You know, throughout the years I've always said that's it's a
    possibility that the material that I viewed was fraudulent, but I
    don't think it was.

RB: In other words, it was put there so they could have an excuse to
    dump you?  But what an elaborate scheme to do so.

BE: I don't think it was put there as an excuse to dump me.  I think, if
    anything, it possibly could have been an elaborate plan to create
    this information.

RB: Uh huh.  By the government?

BE: By the government.

RB: Well, then if they're going to do that, we'd have told everybody
    about the copy 13 and then we'd all read it and say, see how silly
    it is.

BE: Well, that's possible, but like I said before, I don't believe it
    was.

Gene: Oh, I've been out to New Mexico.

RB: Yeah, well, so have I, but anyway.  623-8585.  Joe in Greeley. Hi.

Joe: Hi.  I wanted to ask him -- Bill English, that's his name?

RB: That's his name, yeah.

Joe: I've read something, I don't remember where it was at, but it was
     something on a hangar.  Where the government had a crashed UFO.
     They took the bodies to this thing --

BE: You're referring to --

RB: Hangar 18.

BE: Hangar 18.

Joe: That's it.  I just wanted to know the validity of that?

BE: There is no such thing as Hanger 18.  However, there is a Hangar 13.

RB: And that's at Wright-Pat, isn't it?

BE: That's at Wright-Patterson and that's --

RB: And that's in, what, Ohio?

BE: Uh-huh.

RB: Yeah.

BE: And that's where they -- it's reputed they've been storing this.  We
    did come across information about a year ago from a gentleman who
    was at Wright-Patterson when they brought the material from Roswell
    there, who claim that he was invited to view the bodies.

[end of tape, nearly end of interview.]
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, take care.
John.
-
<Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence>



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