textfiles/ufo/UFOBBS/2000/2441.ufo

SUBJECT: UFOs TONITE DON ECKER INTERVIEWS DR. RICHARD BOYLAN


FILE: UFO2441


                                        


  This is the transcript of Don Ecker's interview of Dr. Richard Boylan
  form the show that was broadcast 7/18/93 on UFOs Tonite.

  Thanks to...... Don Ecker...UFOs Tonite on Cable Radio Network
           ...... Dr. Richard Boylan
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Don Ecker : Tonight, we're going to be taking a look at something that we've 
discussed a number of times before on  "UFOs Tonite."  We are going to be 
talking about "alien encounters, alien abductions," is it real?  Are people 
genuinely taking a close look at it?   Is there something here, or are 
literally tens and tens of thousands of people all over the  United States, 
mistaken?  Is it a new type of psychosis?   What exactly is going on out 
there?  You've seen recently a movie  "Fire in the Sky"  the Travis Walton 
story and we've had Travis on this broadcast.  We've had  Budd Hopkins  on 
this broadcast.  We've had Evonne Smith (sp?) of Cerro.  We've had Dr. Dave 
Jacobs.  All speaking about the idea of "encounters" or as many people call 
them "abductions,"  but hold on not everyone considers the UFO encounter or 
abduction to be necessarily something other than benign or good.  Tonight's 
guest I have on hand Dr. Richard J. Boylan PhD who is a psychologist.  He 
received his PhD in 1984 in psychology and I believe it was 1989 he became a 
licensed psychologist.  He started an interest in UFOs all the way back in 
1947, when the subject about  "anomalous objects"  first hit the airwaves 
nationwide and ultimately around the world.  Today he is recognized as one of 
the better well known names in this field of encounters, physical encounters, 
people that have claimed to have had actual first hand experience with people 
from somewhere else, and I would like to welcome Dr. Richard Boylan on the 
air.  Good evening Richard, it's a pleasure to have you here.

>Dr. Boylan : Good evening Don, I'm happy to be with you.

Don Ecker : Ok!  You've just recently finished a book that's coming out in 
the near future from  "Wild Flower Press"  called  "Close Extraterrestrial 
Encounters".  Now you are in the... you are a licensed psychologist, you've 
practiced with people with marital problems, people that have experienced 
anything that might come to see a psychologist, but yet you suddenly kind of
jumped off track from the mainstream, what many people in the mental health 
community  considered to be some type of psychosis, and I guess  the big 
question would be, what caused that?   What was it about this particular 
subject that caught your fancy and caused you to believe that there might 
in fact be something very real here?  

>Dr. Boylan : Well Don, what started for me interest in extraterrestrial 
>contact, as you said I've always been interested in UFO's since I was a 
>small boy and followed the stories, but extraterrestrial contact I had kind 
>of a guarded feeling for.  I was not overly impressed by some of the 
>contactee stories in the 1950's coming out of southern California and some 
>other places.  So I kept kind of a skeptical eye towards that side of the 
>phenomenon, but around 1989 as I was counseling a wide variety of people, my 
>private practice was psychology, psychotherapy.  Three or four people that 
>year started to come forward as we were working on other material. They came 
>in for very garden variety types of problems, anxiety, depression, 
>relationship problems that sort of thing, but as we got into earlier in 
>their life, after we got counseling for some months.  One and then another 
>would kind of sheepishly come forward with this, "well you're not probably 
>going to believe this, but you probably ought to know that when I was a kid 
>these little beings were in my bedroom one night", you know.  At first I was 
>pretty startled by that stuff.  I had dismissed it in the UFO literature for 
>many years, but here it was people I had come to know and knew that they may 
>have a little of life's problems, but they were  perfectly sane and 
>trustworthy people, talking about this phenomenon.  At first I didn't know 
>quite what to do about it.  I remembered that Leo Sprinkle a Wyoming 
>psychologist had been working with this material for some time. 

Don Ecker : Leo from the University of Wyoming?

>Dr. Boylan : Right!  So I looked over what he had said and then about that 
>same year, Dr. Edith Fioria (sp?) a psychologist down in the south bay area 
>of California... Saratoga, who's in private practice there came out with a 
>book  "Encounters"  in which she talked about a number of people in her 
>practice that were revealing stories of this kind and I looked at her 
>approach.  I mulled these things over and finally at the end of 1991 I 
>decided, hey! you know I'm trained as a research scientist.  Wouldn't this 
>make one heck of a research project?  So I... January of 92 I started 
>putting announcements in a couple of the local publications saying that as 
>epithetic psychologist if you've had an extraterrestrial encounter I would 
>be happy to talk to you and try and be understanding, and boy!  they came 
>forward. (laughs)

Don Ecker : How have your peers in the field reacted to what you are doing 
now?  Have you suffered, you know have you suffered criticism as a result of 
this?  Have they been saying that Richard Boylan has gone over the edge?  

>Dr. Boylan : Uh, not really.  Most of my fellow psychotherapist, they run 
>about the same spectrum  as the rest of humanity.  A lot of them don't 
>believe the evidence for this stuff exist and so they are skeptics.  Some 
>believe that this stuff is going on and so they're on-board, and there are 
>some in the middle that are kind of unsure of themselves.  I've had some 
>people keep their distance from me because they fear that they don't want to 
>be associated with somebody who's into to these weird topics, but by and 
>large the relationships I've had among fellow therapist continue as before. 

Don Ecker :  Well up to this point Richard now since you have begun to take 
a very in depth look at this phenomenon.  How many folks have you dealt with 
on a professional level?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, as part of this research project interviewing people 
>specifically in some depth about their extraterrestrial contacts.  I'm up 
>to about ninety-eight folks now.

Don Ecker : Have you discovered any of these people  that may have 
manufactured these close encounters...  In other words has there been 
anybody in there that has been delusional or has actively attempted to 
perpetuate a hoax that you've uncovered? 

>Dr. Boylan : Yeah, there are several kinds of false stories that have 
>emerged.  There's a few delusionals maybe about two percent of the 
>population and frankly are, you know, this is part of a mental illness in 
>this story, and then there's some folks who for their own reasons, attention 
>seeking, etc, have produced stories that I don't see the evidence for and 
>there's some pretty clear indications that they are making this stuff up...  

Don Ecker : Well, now people like, oh I'm sorry. 

>Dr. Boylan : and then there's a third category of what appeared to me 
>in my opinion to be plants from "military and intelligence," who were coming 
>in trying to muddy-up what I'm doing by planting preposterous stories with 
>me hoping I'll bite on them, and announce them, and sound so absolutely 
>goofy that my research will not be taken seriously. 

Don Ecker : Well, people like Hopkins have kept information back from the 
main stream.  Have neither written about it nor shown, what they consider to 
be definitive evidence from some of the people they've worked with and what 
I'm talking about primarily are people that have recalled symbols that 
apparently are some type of writing or hieroglyphic type symbol that they've 
seen allegedly while on board these objects.  Now do you have anything 
yourself that you hold back to verify people when they come in?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, I wouldn't say I hold it back, you know obviously I'm a 
>professional.  So people working with me are operating with an understanding 
>that what they say is kept confidential, and only they can decide what to 
>release and how much.  As part of our getting into these experiences, and in 
>some occasions people have done drawings of either the beings that they've 
>dealt with, or symbols they've seen on the walls of spacecraft, or in 
>screens or books that have been presented to them by extraterrestrials.  I 
>do certain comparisons, not... I don't have a checklist of alien symbols 
>that, you know, if you don't recognize these you're bogus get out of here, 
>but I have had some interesting things happen, for example.  Two separate 
>gentlemen who come from quite different geographical locations and very 
>different stations in life, and wouldn't know each other at all.  Both 
>drew almost the same identical complex symbol that they had seen during an 
>extraterrestrial encounter, and I almost dropped out of my chair when I saw 
>it the second time, because first time you know, you figure well, yeah that 
>was real, maybe he saw this, there's always a slight possibility that he 
>didn't, but when the second guy came up with the same one, I figured Woh!, 
>we've gotten something here. 

Don Ecker : OK!   We're going to have to take a quick break, when we come 
back we're going to rejoin my guest  Dr. Richard Boylan a licensed 
psychologist who is specializing in alleged abduction or encounter things. 
We're going to be right back.  {:^)  Ok!  We are back!  My guest this evening 
is Dr. Richard Boylan and if you'd like to call in with a question for Dr. 
Boylan or myself and you're in the 818, 213, or 310 area codes you can call 
us at 818-352-7152, if you're outside of those areas you can call us toll 
free at 800-336-2225, that's 1-800-336-CABLE.  Ok Richard, now about oh... 
I guess it wasn't quite a year ago myself and Vicki Cooper the editor of UFO 
magazine attended a symposium that was held in Berkeley, and you were a part 
of that along with Leo Sprinkle, John Salter, Dick Haynes, I'm trying to 
think of who else was... 

>Dr. Boylan : Jim Harder was there.

Don Ecker : Yeah, Jim Harder was there that's right, and one thing that I 
noticed during the course of this particular symposium was that the overall 
view not only from the folks that were there giving the lectures, yourself 
and these other folks that we just mentioned, but the overall audience felt 
that this phenomenon at worst is benign, and at very best is beneficial for 
humanity, and I noticed at the very end of the symposium, and I wanted to get 
up and ask some very hard questions and unfortunately they were not taking 
live questions.  They were only taking questions on three by five cards and 
then the moderator would pick them.  Number one I wanted to find out.  Did 
these folks fear taking live questions, and number two is that accurate, that 
not only they, but you feel that this is a very benign or even a beneficent 
phenomenon?
  
>Dr. Boylan: Well, two questions there.  First of all, I don't know why they 
>did the index card question format.  I had no reluctance to handle live 
>questions.  I've done that in a number of settings and I'd suspect that's 
>true of most of the people you've mentioned.  I think it was just a way of 
>trying to manage a lot of folks in a big auditorium.  As to the phenomenon
>itself.  I think probably safest if I speak for myself, and not the other 
>gentlemen you mentioned, but I would say this.  For most people that I've 
>dealt with it seems to go, that at first it's very scary uncertain shaking 
>kind of an experience for a person.  There's no precedent for it.  Society 
>says the stuff doesn't exist, if you try and say that it does you're crazy, 
>and then as people walk into their experience and get a little help 
>understanding what's going on and see what actually went on instead of the 
>partial memories they often have when they come out of an encounter before 
>they've been worked with professionally.  When they get actually into the 
>full experience and get a little perspective on it, but I generally find and 
>there are some exceptions that, people feel that this is a overall been a 
>positive stimulation in their lives, it's challenged them, it's caused them 
>to rethink where they fit in the world, their understanding of the world, 
>and depending on a persons personal makeup some people feel that they've had a

>a substantial consciousness-raising experience. 

Don Ecker : Well, now I will never forget Leo Sprinkle standing before that 
auditorium and he used an analogy, and he referred to the people that have 
undergone this experience as sheep, and he referred to the intelligence 
behind the UFO phenomenon itself as a shepherd, and he referred to the little 
gray entities that many people report as the sheep dogs nipping at the heels, 
and I was thoroughly outraged by that.  Now I'm certainly no abduction 
therapist nor have I specialized in that particular aspect of the overall 
phenomenon, but I have spoken to many many people through out the years that 
have undergone this, and I have yet to speak to anyone that would genuinely 
accept this as a beneficent thing.  The analogy that I always hear or 
variations there of are.  Friends don't come in the middle of the night 
sneaking through your bedroom window, tying you up, abducting you, carrying 
you off, doing things to you, then bringing you back unceremoniously and 
dumping you off.   How do you respond to that?

>Dr. Boylan : Well my research has been quite different.  The numbers I've 
>come up with are two-thirds the people say it's positive.  About almost 
>another third say it's mixed got some positive and some heroizing or down 
>side aspects to it.  Only a tiny fraction last time I did an analysis 
>statistically about two percent said, no there's not a redeeming feature 
>to it I wish it'd never happened.

Don Ecker : Well, what in your opinion have caused these people to accept 
or the majority of the people that you have worked with to accept this 
particular aspect of the overall UFO phenomenon in a positive light?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, I think I would say this without offending too many 
>people.  I think the kind of way a person tends to interpret and size up 
>their experience, has not a little to do with, who gets to them, who works 
>with them, and what kind of attitudes the person working with them has.  If 
>the person working with them already has a negative or terroristic mind-set 
>about what extraterrestrial contacts are about, they're going to communicate 
>that in very obvious or very suttle ways, that are going to be picked up on 
>by the person they're dealing with.  Very many experiences have not been 
>dealt with by mental health professionals, but well meaning amateurs in the 
>psychological sense who tried to be helpful, but really didn't have the 
>professional understanding of how the human mind works under extraordinary 
>circumstances, and may not have been as helpful as could have otherwise been 
>the case.  

Don Ecker : OK, we're going to have to take another very quick break and when 
we come back more on the overall UFO experience encounter.  {:^)  We are back 
to my guest Dr. Richard Boylan.  Ok Richard as a matter of fact speaking of 
UFO magazine, you wrote a number of issues ago an article on a I believe you 
referred to it as a tour through the southwest going around to some of these 
areas that have achieved almost a legendary status in the UFO field, places 
like  "Area 51"  down in Nevada where allegedly the U.S. Air Force or some 
faction of the U.S. government has recovered alien technology.  What caused 
you to do that?  I mean that's kind of a far cry from your normal from your 
normal business of working with people that have undergone some type of 
experience.  

>Dr. Boylan : Yeah, well my general professional practice is a broad based 
>psychological issues.  Working with experiencers is only a small subdivision 
>of that, but your point is well taken.  Why would a clinical psychologist 
>take a week and a half off from his practice, and go out in the desert of 
>Nevada and New Mexico, and check out bases that are ultra-secret and are in 
>some cases not supposed to exist?  Well the reason I did that is, I did 
>this grand tour as I call it between April 9 and 15th of 1992.  At that 
>point I'd been about three or four months into my research project, and 
>they'd come up with a number of people who had come forward and were 
>reporting extraterrestrial contact, and this was challenging to them about 
>what they were remembering was true and it was challenging to me. I had to 
>find that most of these people made sense and seemed sane and truthful, and 
>yet the enormity of what was starting to pile up in all of these accounts 
>really shook me, and I decided well now if I go out and see for myself some 
>UFO activity, and some of this "cloak and dagger" stuff that's supposed to 
>be going on that indicates that the government darn well knows this stuffs 
>going on and is keeping it out of sight.  Then I don't have to so much just 
>operate on the word of people who say they've had extraterrestrial contact. 
>I can see some of this stuff with my on two eyes, and I'll be in a much more 
>solid place, and I'll be much more useful to people that come in after this 
>because I'll be operating from information and not from just belief.

Don Ecker : Well, are you convinced at this point that there is in fact a 
"covert" governmental operation of some type involved with this phenomenon?

>Dr. Boylan : I think the evidence for that is overwhelming from what I've 
>seen and read, what others have researched, seen, and come up with.  

Don Ecker : And you know there are certain factions within the...  Well I 
don't want to say the "fringe" area of UFOlogy, but I guess perhaps that's
the best way to describe it.  That think, even though there is no proof 
whatsoever, that there are elements of the government that have formed some 
type of treaty with these intelligences.  Do you give any credence to that? 

>Dr. Boylan : I don't have information that could prove that one way or 
>the other.  There are some accounts from people interviewed, who seem 
>pretty believable that there are some underground facilities where 
>extraterrestrials and governmental or human scientists have been jointly 
>spotted, but you know I haven't been there myself, so that's still in the 
>area of it looks like it's evidence, but we could certainly enjoy a little 
>harder evidence, but I've seen UFOs myself, so that's not in the realm of 
>speculation.  I'm an eye witness there.

Don Ecker  : OK, we're going to have to take our half-hour break and when we 
come back more with my guest Dr. Richard Boylan .  This is Don Ecker, the 
show is UFO's Tonite and you are listening to the Cable Radio Network.  {:^) 

Don Ecker : And we are back, with my guest Dr. Richard Boylan.  Ok Richard 
you've been out to some of these areas and you told me just a few moments ago 
that you had some sightings of some "strange craft" out there, but before we 
go to that let me ask you a question.  With your basic overall view that the 
encounter phenomenon is not bad and very well maybe good, but yet you think 
that there could perhaps be some of these intelligences working with factions 
within the government.  If in fact they are good, then number one why are 
they not announcing themselves and why has our government not announced their 
presence?  

>Dr. Boylan : Well, the answer to that first question would be speculative.  
>I don't know their reasons. I can have some educated surmises based on what 
>I've heard from experiencers who have had dialog with the extraterrestrials, 
>and as for the government I think it's pretty clear that there's a massive  
>"cover-up" going up.  I think you know asking the government why it's not
>coming clean with us is a very good question we should all be doing, and I
>think as that pressure builds the government is going to have to start to be 
>more forthcoming with some answers back.  As to the extraterrestrials it 
>appears that there is some sensitivity on their part that we're not ready 
>for a wide open manifestation or have not been anyway.  The apparent game 
>plan has been for the extraterrestrials to try and work with the leadership 
>within our country, in the quiet bases with top government, and the 
>governments booted it pretty much over to the military intelligence 
>establishment to handle and to keep undercover, but with the idea that the 
>population would be prepared gradually for the reality of extraterrestrial 
>presence, well as you and I know the government has done just about zero on 
>that score of preparing the people for the reality of UFOs and 
>extraterrestrial presence among us.  

Don Ecker : But nevertheless, over the last twenty-five to thirty years if 
nothing else Hollywood has prepared us for that. 

>Dr. Boylan : Oh, Hollywood has done a much better job than the government.  

Don Ecker : Starting for example with the original "Star Trek" series.  

>Dr. Boylan : Yeah (laughs) 

Don Ecker : Well, which was a very positive look at encounters off earth, I 
mean with alien cultures.  One of the most popular mythological heroes for 
the want of a better term throughout the entire planet is "Mr. Spock" who is 
a half human half alien from another planet, and you know he was universally 
I think loved almost by practically everybody that watched the series.  
                                                                 
>Dr. Boylan : Yeah well, Hollywood feeds us back mass culture and mass 
>consciousness, and you know there's been a lot of opinion poles that have 
>asked people whether they believe in UFOs and the majority of the United 
>States citizens think that UFOs are real.  The government's lagging way 
>behind the people once again in being on top of this phenomenon.  What 
>appears to be going on now with this escalation in extraterrestrial 
>contacts, is it appears that the extraterrestrials have borrowed a page from 
>Ross Perot's campaign, and have decided to take their campaign directly to 
>the people and go around the government directly to the people, and so 
>there's been apparently an escalation of extraterrestrial contacts based on 
>some of the work the "Roper pole" (sp?) and other researchers calculations 
>and my own work.  I would estimate that there's probably three thousand 
>extraterrestrial contacts going on a day in the United States.  Obviously at 
>that volume we're not talking about a phenomena that's staying very well 
>hidden.  Just a couple of weeks ago there was a Sunday magazine supplement 
>in many of the major papers in the United States with alien abductions as 
>their front page cover story, with a Harvard psychiatrist John Mack and 
>others featured dealing with this straight up as a bonafide scientifically 
>valid phenomenon, so you know the popular consciousness is there, it's the 
>government that's got lockjaw.   

Don Ecker : All right let's go to the phone lines.  We have David from Venice 
on Continental Cable.  Good evening David.     

-!- David : Hello    

Don Ecker : Are you there?   

-!- David : Yeah, how ya doing?   

Don Ecker : Fine, did you have a question for my quest?   

-!- David : Yeah, I got a couple of questions, but the first question I got 
-!- is of all the people that you've investigated or talked to about 
-!- abductions has any of them ever been on any kind of drugs like, you know 
-!- rock cocaine or mushrooms or anything like that?    

Don Ecker : Are you talking about the people themselves that have undergone 
these experiences?   

-!- David : Yes sir, I want to know whether or not if they've been on any 
-!- kind of drugs or...   

Don Ecker : Richard    

>Dr. Boylan : Well David, let me be clear about your question, are you 
>talking about taking drugs at the time that they also feel they had an 
>extraterrestrial experience?   

-!- David : Yes sir   

>Dr. Boylan : Oh, I've not detected  any such set of circumstances.  I 
>carefully check with people you know, you had anything to drink that night 
>or you know, any drug use and make sure that's negatives, so that we're not 
>dealing with hallucinations.  It would be real convenient if that's all this 
>was, but doesn't seem to be that's what's going on.  

Don Ecker : Yeah, and besides Richard is it not true that most people that 
end up having conscious recollections of this actually have experiences that 
go back almost to their very early childhood?   

>Dr. Boylan : Well, for some people yes and some people no.  I would say the 
>majority of people I've researched have had multiple contacts going back a 
>ways in their life in some cases back to very early childhood.       

Don Ecker : Does that answer your question David?   

-!- David : Yeah, and I have another question Don.  Ok, what about like the 
-!- government you know, during I know during the Vietnam war they did "agent 
-!- orange".  What about the government doing any kind of flying over areas 
-!- where people thought maybe they had some kind of experience, anything 
-!- like that ?

Don Ecker : Well, there's no way of telling, although this is not local just 
to the United States or to any geographical area.  This literally has been 
reported worldwide, and with the numbers of people that have undergone this.  
I would find it pretty hard to believe that it was some type of chemically 
induced phenomena that would be as universal as it is.  Would you agree with 
that Richard ?   

>Dr. Boylan : Yeah, we're talking about people very widely scattered, and 
>other researchers are coming up with the same findings I am.  People from 
>all parts of the region, all walks of life, all ages.  If the government 
>were out there spraying some "mind bending" chemical, you know you'd be 
>hearing choppers all night long whipping around, because there's a lot of 
>this activity of encounters being reported.   

Don Ecker : All right, well thank you for your call David and keep listening.  
Ok Richard, with this particular phenomenon I've got to get back to something 
that I had asked you earlier.  Friends do not come in the middle of the night
unannounced at two or three or four o-clock in the morning.  Many people have 
been absolutely traumatized by this, and I have spoken to more people that 
feel a sense of fear or urgency, than they do a feeling of happiness 
undergoing this.  Most people are not asked their permission, the reports 
that are coming out state that in many cases these individuals are at home in 
bed asleep, suddenly they're confronted with this presence, now according to 
the published reports they're taken in many many cases against their will, 
they have some type of procedure performed on them.  Now this has come out 
not only consciously, but of course under hypnosis.  There have been reports 
of women alleging that they've had within the first trimester a fetus 
removed.  Men have reported having involuntary extraction of sperm from them 
and then they're unceremoniously dumped back in their house.  Now I, perhaps 
I'm missing something, but I see nothing good in this especially when you 
consider that the human race is in fact a sentient intelligent race even 
though you may turn on the news every night and that may give lie to what I 
just said, but you know how can you take a look at this and state that you 
feel that this is in fact beneficent for the people involved?   

>Dr. Boylan : Well, the scenario you describe is not a typical scenario that 
>I've come up with as the research that I've come into.  I think that's sort 
>of the stereotype that's broadcast by...   

Don Ecker : You mean you're telling me, that the majority of people that you 
have worked with have a different type of experience than that ?   

>Dr. Boylan : Well, there are elements that are similar in some cases and 
>elements that are different, but that stereotype I think is overdrawn and I 
>don't find validation for that as the average standard experience.   

Don Ecker : Ok, now in that case, what have you been finding out, what have 
you been uncovering that suggests to you that this is for the furtherment I 
guess of humanity and if in fact that's what you are suggesting, why would 
these intelligences be concerned about that ?   

>Dr. Boylan : Well, good question.  I guess if I were going to make a overall 
>characterization about extraterrestrial contacts, and that's a dangerous 
>thing to do. I would say that the contacts are in "involuntary consciousness
>raising exercise".  I'm not suggesting that people perceive the 
>extraterrestrials when they first visit them as friends, that connection for 
>a number of people develops later.  At first it's obviously baffling, scary, 
>without precedent.   

Don Ecker : Well, let me interrupt for just a second.  When you say perceive 
them as friends and that comes later, friends in what way and in which 
manner? 

>Dr. Boylan : Well, recognizing fellow intelligent life, recognizing someone 
>who has their interest and a personal concern for them at heart, who exudes 
>a great deal of caring and warmth in many cases, and keeps track of them 
>from time to time and on a repeat visit there's a sense of an old familiar 
>person that many of the experiencers say they're glad to see it come back.  
>I realize this doesn't fit the stereotype that's some of the authors have 
>put out there, but you know some of the literature.  I think it David Jacobs 
>book for example, which tends to depict things in the more awful kind of 
>sense, but I've heard and talked with you know John Mack, John Carpenter, 
>Leo Sprinkle, Jim Harder and others and I get a sense that what I'm talking 
>about is not that uncommon in their findings too, once you get past the 
>rhetoric and get down to the reality of what actually is happening to 
>people. 

Don Ecker: My guest this evening is Dr. Richard Boylan and we're talking 
about UFO experiences or abductions.  Well if in fact then this is a 
beneficent experience, what is the ultimate aim of what these individuals are 
doing and how are they doing it?   

>Dr. Boylan : Well, a number of experiencers have gotten messages and I've 
>kind of put them together and there's a convergence there that suggest 
>there's a kind of overall unifying theme to what the extraterrestrials are 
>getting across to people they've contacted.  There's a great concern for 
>this planet and it's ecology and the destruction of that by humans in 
>negative involvement with the ecology of the earth, there's a concern for 
>interpersonal violence among humans, how we are treating each other, there's 
>a concern for our excessive preoccupation with materialism and the 
>extraterrestrials message is in many cases would be that we develop our 
>mental and spiritual sides more and not be so concerned about only 
>technological progress.  These are some of the concerns, obviously many of 
>the extraterrestrials are looking forward to a time when there can more open 
>contact, when they can be sure that they land somewhere's somebody's not 
>going to get their 357 magnum out and blow them away, when there can be a 
>respectful dialog between people without the need to be as roundabout and 
>surreptitious as they feel they need to be now.   

Don Ecker : Ok Richard, let me take another quick break, as a matter of fact 
we've run past it here and then we have some more phone calls so standby.{:^)
And we are back with my guest Dr. Richard Boylan and let's go to the lines 
Richard.  I've got Vince calling from Tucson, Arizona on satellite, is that
correct ?  Hello Vince.    

-!- Vince : Yeah, go ahead.    

Don Ecker : Yeah, my guest this evening is Dr. Richard Boylan, did you have a 
question for him ?   

-!- Vince : Yes I did, you got cut out there I didn't hear the first part. 
-!- Yeah, I do have a question.  Being a psychologist with the abduction 
-!- scenario could it be analogist to people who've been kidnapped and held 
-!- hostage and that after a period of time they you know possibly get swayed 
-!- over to the kidnapper's point of view and now all of the sudden they 
-!- agree with what the kidnapper's do and... ?    

Don Ecker : That's an excellent point, that's called the "Stockholm 
syndrome".  How do you answer a question like that Richard?  What Vince is 
asking is over a period of time over a period of years people have been taken 
again and again with not so much as a bye or leave, and as happens here on 
planet earth sometimes when this type of situation occurs the individuals 
begin to identify with their abductors and before you know it they are 
siding with them against the rest of society.   

>Dr. Boylan : Well, the Stockholm syndrome is based on a protracted 
>kidnapping and terrorizing situation that goes... well the original 
>Stockholm hostage taking I believe lasted several days, certainly a long 
>period of a hours with a terrorizing and life threatening circumstances 
>involved that tend to overtake a person's mind and make them more pliable to 
>seeing their best interest aligned with that of their hostage taker.   

Don Ecker : Yes, but yet many many people that have undergone this experience 
have stated emphatically and for the record that they had absolutely no say 
so over anything, they were basically turned off, their perception was 
manipulated.  Now how do we know that the, for example the people that you 
have dealt with that claim that this is a good thing, a happy thing that 
their perception in fact is not being manipulated?    

>Dr. Boylan : Well, the typical duration of an extraterrestrial contact when 
>it involves leaving where the person is found and that isn't always the 
>case, there are a lot of contacts where the extraterrestrials come and visit 
>a person, let's say in their bedroom for example, and there's no taking away 
>to a craft, that's one of the elements of the stereotype that just isn't 
>right in many cases, but even where there is a removal to craft, the average
>duration is about an hour and there's no life threatening kinds of "gun to 
>the head" kind of stuff, so it's too short and it lacks the life threatening 
>aspects for the Stockholm syndrome.    

Don Ecker : But yet, if these intelligences and for the want of a better term 
aliens, I refrain from calling them extraterrestrial because I don't for a 
fact know for a fact that is in fact what they are, but they can manipulate 
individuals and from many many reports over the years would seem to bare this 
out, so the question I guess once again is, how do we know that what 
perceptions these folks are relaying are in fact accurate?    

>Dr. Boylan : Well, I don't know about manipulations, I've not heard that 
>reported on the folks I've dealt with.  I know Dr. Jacobs would like to have 
>that be the case, but I think that's his interpretation of the data and I 
>don't read the data the same way.  The people I've researched with are very 
>capable of speaking both when they find their interests and that of the 
>extraterrestrials aligned, when they find their interests separate and when 
>they take exception to something that has happened to them during an 
>encounter, so we're not dealing with mindless robots here or people that 
>have been taken over and brainwashed by extraterrestrials and are now just 
>happy playing spokespersons for the extraterrestrial line.  

Don Ecker: But do we know this?   

>Dr. Boylan : Yes    

Don Ecker : How?   

>Dr. Boylan : Well, I've talked with such folks after one or more encounters 
>and they are able to quite well differentiate how they feel about different 
>aspects of the experience, some positive, some negative, some sort of in 
>between.  They're not just happy campers and propaganda victims for the 
>extraterrestrials.    

Don Ecker : Ok Vince, did that pretty much answer your question?    

-!- Vince : Yeah, a little bit, I do have kind of a follow up question.  
-!- Wouldn't you consider the abduction scenario over, you know if somebody 
-!- been abducted since they were five years old and all the way through 
-!- their life until they are age forty.  Isn't that kind of a long term 
-!- thing, these people are always under the threat of being abducted, as 
-!- much as if you'd been abducted once and held captive all the time and you 
-!- know are they, you know the Stockholm scenario as you call it, doesn't 
-!- that apply if some of these people have been tagged and now they are able 
-!- to be abducted at anytime and against their will ?    

>Dr. Boylan : Well, you know it's a funny thing that with the people I've 
>worked with and the other people that... October conference all the 
>researchers you had mentioned, they don't like to use the term abduction, if 
>that sounds like somebody put a gun to your head and walked you off.  
>Contact is a much more unloaded term for that experience.  The majority of 
>the experiencers of close extraterrestrial encounters that I've worked with 
>have come to a point of view where they don't mind future contacts and in 
>many cases look forward to them.  The word abduction would not fit to 
>describe that, that set of mind or those kinds of contact experiences.  If 
>we're going to be technical about the Stockholm syndrome it doesn't come on 
>just because of brief exposures without terrorism just because there's a 
>number of them spaced apart by months or years.  It's a kind of durational 
>brainwashing experience that this phenomenon just lacks the elements of.  
>It's a nice theory, but it doesn't fit the circumstances of these relatively 
>brief extraterrestrial encounters.   

Don Ecker : Ok Vince, we are going to have to move along.  I thank you for 
your call and keep listening.  Richard we're going to have to take the half
hour break and when we come back we have some more telephone calls. {:^) 
And, let's go back to the phone lines, we've got Bill in Sherman Oaks.  Good
evening Bill.    

-!- Bill : Hi Don, how are you?    

Don Ecker : I'm fine thank you.  What cable system are you calling in on?    

-!- Bill : I believe I have United, yeah that's how the bill comes in United 
-!- cable. 

Don Ecker : Ok, did you have a question for my guest?    

-!- Bill : Well, yeah Don,  I just wanted to say I hope this doesn't come 
-!- across as propaganda, but Richard thank God there's still a handful of 
-!- you out there, I was beginning to give up here.  Richard I wanted to ask 
-!- you just a little about your credentials.  How long have you been doing 
-!- research in the extraterrestrial field?   

>Dr. Boylan : Well, the research kind of came and found me about 89 and I've 
>made it more of a formal project since then.  I've followed the UFO 
>phenomenon since 47, but the extraterrestrial contacts stuff, in terms of 
>really getting into it and it hitting me in the face where I couldn't avoid 
>it was 1989. 

-!- Bill : And these are by patients and clients that you were seeing at 
-!- this...?  

>Dr. Boylan : Yes, for other reasons back then, of course more recently is 
>I've done my formal research project with "Out Reach", I've had people come 
>in explicitly because they feel they've had extraterrestrial encounters. 

-!- Bill : When did you notice and I'm going to call it negative for a lack 
-!- of a better word, that this abduction element came into effect ?  It 
-!- appears to me within the last five years and what do you feel is the 
-!- culprit behind it, do you have any thoughts on that?   

>Dr. Boylan : Let me be absolutely clear Bill, are you talking about 
>abduction as a kind of negative overall characterization of the ET contact 
>phenomenon? 

-!- Bill : Yes    

>Dr. Boylan : Yes?  Ok, gotcha.  Yes, because if you remember "Giant Rock" 
>in the fifties and the contactees back then they were talking about the 
>"Space Brothers" and they bring tidings of either great joy or great cosmic 
>importance or earth importance and the negative...      

-!- Bill : I just visited that area last week, I'm familiar with it...    

>Dr. Boylan : I've yet to visit that, I guess I should do it on historical 
>grounds, but anyway...     

-!- Bill : Interesting experience...   

>Dr. Boylan : Your right, and then there's the "Billy Meyer" kind of stuff in 
>the sixties and now it's, now that you mention it, it is more recent that a 
>kind of massive negative stereotypical overall image making has emerged.  We 
>didn't even really get that so much with the "Hills", Barney and his wife...

Don Ecker : Well now, Richard lest we think that we are saying that they are 
coming down just arbitrarily performing nasty nasty things, I don't believe 
that that is it as much as, you know many people have attributed this to what 
human beings do with wildlife, tagging animals and then occasionally tracking
them down shooting them with a dart, you know checking their vital signs and
what have you, and they say well if in fact this phenomenon is occurring that
it's not much different than that, but yet the point I'm trying to make is
that we are dealing today human beings are a sentient thinking spiritual
creature and whatever is occurring and I disagree with it simply from the 
fact that apparently whatever is happening is happening in many cases against 
the experiencers will.  I could not began to tell you how many people through
the course that I've dealt with at UFO magazine and so forth, have stated
that whatever it is I don't know, but I wish it would stop.   

-!- Bill : Well, Don I've had some contacts myself and there were periods 
-!- within those contacts where I had a lot of uncertainties about it just 
-!- because of the experiences that had to go on with my everyday life 
-!- patterns and it was a very difficult thing to comprehend, but the overall 
-!- experience itself was not negative in the sense that someone came in to 
-!- my bedroom in the middle of the morning and started poking needles in me 
-!- or anything similar to the late movie "Fire in the Sky", I mean that was 
-!- such misinterpreted hogwash that...

Don Ecker : Well, it was something that was Hollywood-ized without a doubt...  
 

-!- Bill : Yeah, but this is the effect and for the individual that's never 
-!- interpreted this phenomenon in any fashion or manner sees this, this is 
-!- the interpretation that they get, and I believe that just adds to the 
-!- fuel of this party line until it's infiltrated to a degree until where it 
-!- gets out of hand.  Wouldn't you agree with that Richard to some degree? 

>Dr. Boylan : Ok Bill, my frank opinion is that the negative stereotyping is 
>part of the organized cover up of the extraterrestrial presence and UFO 
>presence phenomenon.  

Don Ecker : Richard, I would have to say that Budd Hopkins or David Jacobs 
would disagree with that.  

>Dr. Boylan : Of course they have, we've disagreed before.  I think that they 
>are not interpreting the phenomenon correctly.  

Don Ecker: How do you base that ?

>Dr. Boylan: Neither of them are psychologist, they'll be the first to admit 
>that.

Don Ecker : Yep, that is correct, your absolutely correct.

>Dr. Boylan : And it makes a lot of difference whether a person who has this 
>kind of unprecedented, spooky, mysterious kind of experience is dealt with 
>by somebody who knows how to handle emotional reactions and has enough 
>information about the phenomenon to intelligently deal with the person, or 
>whether they get you know debriefed by people that lack those skills and...  

Don Ecker : Well, Hopkins in fact has worked...

>Dr. Ecker : that can be quite... can cause kind of a permanent-izing of the 
>trauma, if the person is not dealt with right. 

Don Ecker : Hopkins has worked with mental health professionals... 

>Dr. Boylan : But he is not one.

Don Ecker : No he is not, but I to say that that particular individual, and I 
certainly do not agree with all his conclusions, but he has done more in a 
positive light to bring this phenomenon to the public mind than practically 
anyone else in the entire field.

>Dr. Boylan : Well, I will agree and give credit to Budd for putting the word 
>out there about the reality of extraterrestrial contacts in the time when it 
>was extremely lonely and unpopular...

Don Ecker : And he was dealing with people when no one else would, Richard... 

>Dr. Boylan : I give him every bit of that, however you know there are now a 
>lot of psychotherapist willing to get into the field, getting into the 
>field.  I've trained probably thirty of them myself just in the last half 
>year and their are a lots more out there coming forward now that this thing 
>is getting declassified and legitimated as a real phenomenon...

Don Ecker : But I will say this Hopkins...

>Dr. Boylan : ...and it's not like the old days.

Don Ecker : Hopkins, to my knowledge has never taken a fee from anybody that 
he's worked with in the abduction field.

-!- Bill : But that doesn't necessarily make him right, Don...

>Dr. Boylan : Yeah, he doesn't have a licence, it would be unlawful for him 
>to do so.

-!- Bill : And I'm not trying to take anything away from him, and if I may 
-!- just say one more thing and I'll leave the line free for somebody else 
-!- here.  It just seems to me that if I were a "power monger" in charge of a 
-!- dominant oil company on this planet and there was a civilization that 
-!- came here and could show me a better way to do it, I sure would want to 
-!- do something about that, and I'm not going to take up anymore time here, 
-!- it's a great show, Thank You very much.

Don Ecker : Thank you for calling, Bill.  Ok, we are going to go to John in 
Glendale on Sammons cable.  Good evening John.

-!- John : Hi Don, Dr. Boylan.

>Dr. Boylan : Good evening.

-!- John : This is a terrific show tonight.

Don Ecker : Well, thank you.

-!- John : I have one comment and then I do have a question.  I'm calling to 
-!- lend my support to Dr. Boylan's point of view.  I do feel that this is 
-!- not a black and white phenomenon nor is it necessarily as literal as it 
-!- appears on the surface, and it's in the past few years it's come to be my 
-!- notion that humanity is in the process of having it's consciousness 
-!- transformed and that doesn't mean that it's going to be necessarily fun 
-!- or easy, but perhaps will be beneficial in the long run.

Don Ecker : OK...

>Dr. Boylan : I'd have to agree with you John, that this extraterrestrial 
>contact as an aggregate human experience is definitely transforming our 
>consciousness.

-!- John : Yes, I would agree with that, and so perhaps at our stage right 
-!- now we don't quite understand all of the meaning about it.

Don Ecker : What was your question, John?

-!- John : So my question is, I'd like to ask Dr. Boylan if he feels that 
-!- this encounter phenomenon is a "literal physical" experience or something 
-!- more akin to an "altered state" type of experience?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, I could be cute and say all of the above, but let me be a 
>little more clear than that.  It is as far as I can tell in a number of 
>cases, a "physical real" experience where people are actually taken 
>somewhere else, not that there aren't plenty of just "bedroom dialogs", but 
>in those cases where people are removed to craft, taken somewhere else and 
>in some cases procedures done where they have indications of laser surgery 
>burn marks, or scoops taken out of skin, or other signs that indicate actual 
>physical procedure and then returned, and I've yet to have anybody dumped in 
>bed by the way, I've always seen accounts of kind of gentle and unobtrusive 
>and placing back where they were found in ways that make it hard to tell 
>that anything happened, but there do seem to be some mental contacts that 
>are highly real, that seem to be like "ultra-vivid dreams", these usually 
>seem to be follow-up encounters after, usually the first encounters are 
>three dimensional real. Sometimes when person sort of got the basic message 
>and the reality of the extraterrestrial dialog with them, it seems that some 
>of these follow-up visits occur as mental transfers of data and information, 
>and perceptions, along with highly visual mental pictures so that the person 
>is almost not sure whether they've actually gone somewhere and seen the 
>stuff or it's been highly vividly presented inside their mind.  So I think 
>that long-winded answer John, is that I think there's some of both to these 
>encounters, it kind of depends on which particular encounter is going on at 
>the moment.

-!- John : Uh huh, it's interesting that you should mention "vivid dreams" 
-!- because I've never had a sighting or an encounter that I can remember, 
-!- however a few years ago I did have an extremely vivid dream, in which the 
-!- message seemed to come to me that this was the only way in which I would 
-!- be able to perceive this phenomenon which would be in an "altered state" 
-!- kind of condition, which is I guess why I asked that question.

>Dr. Boylan : Well, ok John, let me back at this another way to, to be 
>complete about it. There are a number of encounters that are disguised as 
>"vivid dreams", in other words the "screen memory" or the "mental self 
>explanation" that is imposed on the person's mind, when the 
>extraterrestrials don't feel the time is right for that person to totally 
>remember the encounter is that, "gee this was only a dream but boy was it a 
>vivid one".  So I can't say from just the little bit that we've talked 
>whether what you've recalled was a "vivid dream, an extraterrestrial 
>encounter disguised as a vivid dream, or one of those totally mental-ized 
>along with visuals kind of encounters where there was no physical presence 
>in the room, but a highly charged mental exchange".  It would take some 
>working with a professional, perhaps some hypnotic regression to tease out 
>which one of the three it actually was.  

-!- John : Uh huh.

Don Ecker : Ok John, we are going to have to move along, the lines are lit 
up, but thank you for your call and please keep listening. 

-!- John : Thank You !

Don Ecker : Ok, we are going to go to Tino in Garden Grove on Paragon.  Good 
evening. 

-!- Tino : Hey Don, how are you doing? 

Don Ecker : Well, I'm fine. 

-!- Tino : It's good to talk to you again.

Don Ecker : Is this the Tino I think it is?

-!- Tino : That's right.  I haven't talked to you in awhile, it's good to 
-!- hear your voice again.

Don Ecker : Well thank you, it's good to talk to you too.  My guest this 
evening is Dr. Richard Boylan, did you have a question for him?

-!- Tino : Yeah, I've got two questions or three questions under one theme.  
-!- I'm talking about the "alien entities" themselves, let's talk those for 
-!- awhile.  What has been your experience as to the "types of entities" 
-!- there are, and what about their "powers and abilities".  I understand at 
-!- "Bentwaters" for instance they were able to do certain things that 
-!- weren't always recorded by "Unsolved Mysteries" and other things, and 
-!- then also the final, is there any as to their origin?

>Dr. Boylan : Good questions Tino, let me try these on.  Now I don't claim to 
>have you know all the data, I don't know of any researcher that could.

-!- Tino : Well, maybe both of you could answer.

>Dr. Boylan : In my research to date, I've come up with a minimum of seven 
>different races and possibly more you know.  Again some of the stereotyper's 
>would have the extraterrestrials being three and a half foot tall grey 
>skinned folks, blah blah blah, but then you've got a lot of racial 
>differences.  Even if you concede a sort of a "grey general type" for one of 
>the races, you've got three and half foot to four foot tall types,  you've 
>got five to six foot types, you've got seven to eight foot types, you've got 
>three, four, or five finger types, pads on the ends of fingers or suction 
>cups, you've got webbed or non-webbed fingers, you've got large almond 
>shaped eyes slanted upward, outwards or horizontally in some cases large 
>ovoid eyes without the almond slant, you've got extraterrestrials with slit 
>pupils, you've got just other different body types, the so called praying 
>mantis type, the reptoid type.  So just running those categories out, you're 
>probably talking seven to ten races just there.  These are the ones that I 
>keep getting recurrently.  There's a few exotic and single case reports that 
>I tend to be a little cautious about until I get a lot more corroborative, 
>other people sighting the same ones, but those ones keep popping back up.  
>Now as to your question about their "powers and abilities", obviously 
>telepathy, they seem to be able go through walls, although their favorite 
>mode of entry and exit is pane glass.  They appear to be able to travel 
>great distances with ease.  They appear to be able to see the probable 
>future and describe it in some detail and show it to people and people have 
>subsequently seen that come true, and on and on.  As to their origin, it's 
>very interesting among the experiencers I've worked with, I don't know if 
>the people haven't bothered to ask that question or it hasn't been 
>volunteered.  I try and take just what I've heard from reliable witnesses.  
>In one case an experiencer said that he was told the race came from, I think 
>about eight light years away, and that's just one race and one account.  
>Obviously there's all these different races, we have every reason to believe 
>that they come from a number of different star systems of obviously 
>different distances from us.  So that's what I got so far on that Tino and I 
>hope that is of some help.

-!- Tino : Yes, very interesting, thank you.  Don how would you answer any of
-!- those ?  

Don Ecker : Well, I take a different take on it than what Richard does.  I 
number one, can not say and I'm used to dealing in fact as you know.  I could
not go to court and state under oath that, I know that these intelligences, 
if in fact that's what they are, are extraterrestrial.  That is the most
likely hypothesis and that would seem to be born out by the facts, number
one.  Number two, even though I am not willing to say that whatever is 
happening under this set of circumstances is necessarily evil.  I am not 
willing to throw my arms open and embrace it as a positive thing, until much 
more information is known.  I'm not saying it's bad, I'm not saying it's 
good, but I'm holding off on my final conclusions on that.  I have talked to 
many more people that have been traumatized by these circumstances, than I 
have talked to people that have embraced this overall.  I have been and have 
interfaced with a number of people, for example with the "Close Encounter 
Research Organization" that is headed up by Evonne Smith, whom many people 
will have remembered having been on this program in the past, and she also is 
keeping the options open on what is ultimately happening.  I have heard from 
a number of, for example females that have undergone this experience, that 
have alleged that, they had undergone and became pregnant and at some point 
in the process the fetus was removed.  Now I don't know if this is true are 
not, but this is... I mean this has been born out by more than just one or 
two witnesses.  So what I'm saying is, I think that we have to have a lot 
more information and hopefully at some point, we have to have whomever's 
in charge from the governmental side, to finally come forward and to be honest 
and open to release what is known about this phenomenon to the American 
public, and that's basically my angle on it.

-!- Tino : All right, listen let's have lunch in August.

Don Ecker : Sounds like a winner.

-!- Tino : Thanks, great show...

Don Ecker : Thanks for calling... Ok Tino, bye bye.  All right we have a 
couple of lines open.  My guest this evening is Dr. Richard Boylan.  And 
let's go back to John in Ventura on Century.  Good evening John.

-!- John : Good evening Don.  I have a question for the Doctor.  The question 
-!- is, along with the other contacts that are being made, is it not possible 
-!- that our own federal government and it's secretive agencies, using 
-!- different types of chemicals, like they used on people during the Vietnam 
-!- era to... it's called metapederfrane (sp?) it's a spray that has an 
-!- amnesia effect, but it leaves you totally helpless, and I was wondering 
-!- if maybe that type of thing is also being used for some reason?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, let me come at that question a little bit sideways.  I
>have had some tiny minority of accounts, a small fraction of the accounts 
>that I've dealt with where, people report "joint military-alien" abductions,
>and I'm going to use that term, because these are almost always totally 
>negative and terrorizing kinds of experiences, and without going into all of 
>the details, I get into a little bit more of that in my book coming out.  It
>appears that these are psychological warfare operations designed to enhance
>the image of extraterrestrial contact, as a horrible experience that people
>should fear and certainly not look forward to and try and run away from and
>simply not want to meddle with.  So, there does seem to be in those cases
>some use of "mind-altering" chemicals, certainly rough handling procedures 
>and a totally disagreeable experience, in some cases sexual abuse or rape, 
>and the person when they get all done is definitely a propaganda agent for
>the fact that you wouldn't want come within a hundred miles of an 
>extraterrestrial, after they come out of those experiences.

-!- John : ~!@#$%^&*()_+

Don Ecker : Could you speak up John?

-!- John : Sure, I was just wondering the reason, being in intelligence at 
-!- one time, I've heard of this and I was just wondering you know... our own 
-!- government's experimenting on us, along with the maybe factual contacts 
-!- that have happened, trying to dis information ?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, it certainly muddies-up the picture to have that going 
>along side by side genuine extraterrestrial contacts...

-!- John : Yes...

>Dr. Boylan :  It's people who've undergone one experience are thrown in with 
>people who've undergone a different experience and it does make a confusing
>picture.  I would say this, and you're probably more back grounded in the 
>intelligence community than I from the outside would be, but I'm not so 
>quick to say that our government's doing this.  There seems to be some of 
>the folks behind these particular iniquitous procedures that I don't think 
>are taking their orders from the President.  They seem to be pretty much 
>autonomous and on their agenda.

-!- John : Yeah, I know they're not probably coming from the President.  I 
-!- probably know where they're coming from, but thank you doctor, I 
-!- appreciate it.

Don Ecker : All right, thank you John.

-!- John : Uh huh.

Don Ecker : And when we come back I'm going to get Bert from Burbank on,
Bert don't hang up this time. {:^)  We are back to the phones and now after
waiting patiently we have Bert in Burbank.

-!- Bert : Hello there!

Don Ecker : How ya doing Bert ?

-!- Bert : I'm fine, I hope you guys are doing well, it's a very interesting 
-!- show.  I'd like to kind of purpose something that I've thought of for 
-!- quite some time and then ask a question based around it, apropos to 
-!- what's been talked about, and it's something that I call the "Elsie and 
-!- Elmer syndrome" and what you do, you know you got to think about things.  
-!- You go down to a farm and you go over and you get poor old elmer the bull 
-!- all hot and bothered... the vets will... in a constant state of arousal,   
-!- and say, uh uh ! well, sorry... really there ain't no cow around, but we
-!- got what we wanted anyway.  Guy comes with a three foot syringe, pumping
-!- bull juice into a cow to impregnate her and keep her that way for the  
-!- rest of her life, and the doctor, the vet is coming over and examining 
-!- the cow twice a month, giving her shots, doing all kinds of strange 
-!- things to her.  Farmer John, he gets to milk her every morning, touching
-!- all parts of her anatomy and so he can sell the milk for you know 
-!- whatever he needs.  So now the question is this, are we "Elsie and 
-!- Elmers" friend ?

Don Ecker : Well, that's a heavy duty question.

-!- Bert : (laughs) It's like, isn't this what's going on?  So how do we 
-!- determine if we are Elsie and Elmers friend or if the aliens are our
-!- friends, because there certainly seems to be some parallels between cows
-!- down on the farm and what the aliens are doing, at least the greys?

Don Ecker : Richard, are you there?

>Dr. Boylan : Oh Yeah.

Don Ecker : Ok, how do you respond to that?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, let me start off with the... where my research has been.
>I have found a minority, a very substantial minority of cases involving 
>what people might call reproductive procedures.  Again the stereotype is 
>that !@#$%^&* greys are zapping people in their bedrooms and hijacking them
>onto saucers and milking them of their reproductive products.  I do not find 
>that in the vast majority of the encounters I hear reported.  There are some
>reproductive material borrowing, and even smaller percentage of cases I've
>heard and researched some fertilization with apparently hybridized 
>reproductive material and extraction of a hybrid fetus, about a trimester 
>into pregnancy, but those are minority experiences.  The idea that we are 
>being accosted by some sex hungry race or some race that can't handle it's 
>own reproductive process and has to borrow us... is over blown.

Don Ecker : Are you saying that Jacobs and Hopkins conclusions in that area,
in your opinion are not accurate?

>Dr. Boylan : I think they are distorted.  I think unless they're running
>across a some wholly different sample than I've run across and some of the
>researchers I've talked to, I think they're representing a gross distortion
>and a false stereotype of the experience.

Don Ecker : But yet, that seems to be what their... that seems to be what  
their subjects are telling them.  How do you explain that?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, I don't know that that's what their subjects are telling 
>them, that's what they are walking out and telling us their subjects have
>told them.

Don Ecker : Well, how do we know that your conclusions are accurate?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, you just have to use the same kind of criteria.  I've
>been trained in research and I've trained in human psychology and I think
>I am therefore in a good equipped place to do my research.  I make no 
>apologies for the research I do.  I present it to anybody who wants to look 
>at the methodology, the numbers, the analyses... 

Don Ecker : But yet, we're dealing with something that in the history of 
humankind has never been brought forward, except in the last what fifteen 
twenty years.

>Dr. Boylan : True, but we have developed a method of scientific inquiry that
>works rather well.  I've been trained in anthropology and psychology and I
>think these two disciplines are exquisitely helpful in understanding this
>phenomenon.  I don't think social history or art are nearly as useful in 
>equipping a person to have a comprehensive understanding of this phenomenon.

-!- Bert : Dr. Boylan, I've got to tell you something that there is a great
-!- deal of what you say that I agree with, and I would as a matter of fact, 
-!- and I'm sure some of the other listeners would like to look at some of 
-!- the information that you have.  You said something brought out with Tino 
-!- I believe, who was asking the question about running across different 
-!- varieties and there certainly are many many different varieties that have  
-!- been reported of alien beings.  There's also a great variety of things 
-!- that have been... information that has been passed on to the, as we call
-!- them, contactees", which sometimes as a very negative effect, if not 
-!- necessarily accurately so, but the point being, that we have so many 
-!- different ones even if we just say the seven that you're basically 
-!- familiar with, that each one of them can have their own agenda, and just 
-!- like here in the United States we have people who don't want dolphins 
-!- bottled up in a pin, and then we have others who legitimately want people 
-!- to swim with the dolphins because they can help some people overcome 
-!- certain problems.  So give us an idea and you've kind of talked in 
-!- generalities.  I'd really like to hear a couple of specific... general 
-!- cases and what kind of information has been passed to the contactees, and 
-!- for example maybe even where these beings were supposed to have come 
-!- from. 

>Dr. Boylan : Well, none of the experiencers I've worked with is learned in
>astronomy to know even if the extraterrestrial showed them a star chart that 
>they'd know what they were looking at, so...

-!- Bert : Did they have a name for their planet or the system they came 
-!- from, was that ever passed ?

>Dr. Boylan : I've never heard that reported.  Generally in a number of cases
>they are shown the home planet as a visual, but no name ascribed to it...

-!- Bert : Uh huh.

>Dr. Boylan : In terms of the messages that the extraterrestrials have passed
>on, I've tried to summarize that... speak to one case in particular, an 
>individual who has had a number of contacts from childhood into early 
>adulthood and then nothing for a long time and then just in the last few 
>years has had a contact or two and I'd say the last three or four years.  
>This individual very early in his life... this is a young man who was raised 
>on a ranch in California and Nevada, over the years was shown events which 
>at that point were forty plus years into the future, that are now starting 
>to unfold.

-!- Bert : Uh huh.

>Dr. Boylan : He was shown the increasing manifestation of the 
>extraterrestrials, that people... that this whole phenomenon is going to 
>come out of the closet.  It's own memories were going to wake up when he was 
>the age that he was about two and half years ago.  That it would be the 
>right time to come forward and recover the rest of his memory.  He was shown 
>all of this as a child, and then when he came in and started working with me 
>and got the rest of his memories recovered, it all fit into place and he was 
>quite taken back by the fact that the timing was just as they had said back 
>then.  The general message content had to do with, besides taking care of 
>each other better and taking care of the planet better, getting ready for a 
>more open extraterrestrial presence among us, but that a proper preparation 
>is needed to take place first, peoples minds had to be conditioned for this, 
>there is a certain gradualism to this, and that's parenthetically why I 
>think we are seeing a gradual escalation in these contacts and more and more 
>people being woken up to their memories and experiences that in some cases 
>happened twenty, thirty, forty years ago, that the light bulb is coming on 
>now, they're coming forward to talk to researchers, psychologists, whatever, 
>about their experiences.  We're seeing kind of a mass consciousness 
>awakening in the popular press.  The one thing I've seen that most grabs it 
>for me is a New Yorker cartoon.  The "New Yorker" not being a radical 
>magazine, it shows this guy being hauled out by a number of 
>extraterrestrials from the bedroom, while his wife looks on rather blandly 
>and says "do you want me to videotape Murphy Brown for you, when you get 
>back?"

Don Ecker : Yeah, as a matter of fact we have that hanging up on our bulletin
board.  Bert, we've got to roll along.  Thanks for your call.

-!- Bert : You bet!  Doctor Boylan is there a paper or anything that you
-!- have, possibly a book that we could get a hold of?

Don Ecker : Yeah, as a matter of fact I'm going to be talking about that 
later...

-!- Bert :  Great! Thanks a lot...

Don Ecker : It's called... Bert, "Close Extraterrestrials Encounters".  It's 
coming out this fall, "Wild Flower Press"...

-!- Bert : Terrific !

Don Ecker : We'll be getting more information from Richard in a minute.

-!- Bert : All right !  Thanks a lot guys.

Don Ecker : Ok, let's move along, we've have had Margaret in Ventura on 
Century waiting.  Good evening Margaret.  Are you there?

-!- Margaret : Yes

Don Ecker : Yes, Good evening, do you have a question for my guest?

-!- Margaret : Yes I do.  Yes I am.  I've had... 

Don Ecker : We're waiting.

-!- Margaret : Yeah, my question is... I've been... Oh, I'm listening to the
-!- TV and I can't concentrate. (laughs)

Don Ecker : Ok well, did you have a question? 

-!- Margaret : Yes I do.

Don Ecker : Ok.

-!- Margaret : Ok, this is what's happened.  When I was about three years 
-!- old, I feel that now that I'm about almost forty two, what had happened 
-!- to me at three years old quite possibly was an alien encounter.  I was in 
-!- my back yard, I was all alone and this being came to me an told me like 
-!- what this man had just said before, told me things that would happen in 
-!- the future, and this being told me that he was from the future and he 
-!- said that he was representing the human race in the future, that these 
-!- beings are what we are going to be in the future, and of course it scared 
-!- me and I was only three years old and really didn't understand like I do 
-!- now, and what I've been experiencing now is kind of like... I can only 
-!- describe it as being electrically shocked, not... it doesn't hurt, but 
-!- it's like I'm aware of their presence in my room and it's like I'm being 
-!- scanned from head to toe and by the time it goes from head to toe, by the 
-!- time it gets to my top of my head around the crown area, I hear this loud
-!- popping like an electrical kind of a statically, and it wakes me up right 
-!- away you know, and I have seen three squiggly type beings.  Not that they 
-!- took shape, it's that they look like energy, light energy beings and 
-!- there were like three of them, always three.  The center one's always 
-!- tallest and the two off to the side are the shortest.  Now has anybody in 
-!- your dealings ever experienced anything like that? 

>Dr. Boylan : Elements of that sound very familiar... 

-!- Margaret : Very familiar.

>Dr. Boylan : The kind of electrical tingle, the kind of popping sound, the
>kind of waking up at the end of it...  Mostly people recall the 
>extraterrestrials as solid shapes or dark shadows in the corner, but there 
>are some minority of reports where the beings have a luminescence quality or 
>appear to be almost made out of light energy rather than total solid form.  
>I'm not quite clear what that represents.  The physics of this is probably 
>beyond me and it's clearly got me and maybe beyond human physics, but there
>have been a number of reports of that kind.  So there are bits and pieces of
>everything you've said I've heard in other reports, for what that's worth 
>Margaret.

-!- Margaret : Uh huh. Well, my other experiences that... The people that are 
-!- having these negative experiences, is because they're attracting negative
-!- beings and that's what they are attracting...

Don Ecker : Now why would you say that Margaret ?  What makes you think that  
they would be attracting... 

-!- Margaret : Why would I say that?... 

Don Ecker : Negative beings, yes.

-!- Margaret : There are negative beings in the universe and they have told
-!- me that is what we are to be on guard for. Never to fall down in 
-!- drunkenness because our auras open up and allow them to take over, and the 
-!- other reason that they told us that they were taking fetuses is part of 
-!- their food chain.

Don Ecker : Who said that?

-!- Margaret : This is what they told me.

Don Ecker : You mean the entity that you had an experience with? 

-!- Margaret : They said... The one that came to me and said he was from our
-!- future, that these beings are taking... the negative ones are taking...  
-!- They're cannibals out in outer space, they're cannibals and their from...

Don Ecker : Well, I would have to see a lot more.  I would not take anything
like that at face value.

-!- Margaret : Hey, I didn't make this up, this is just something that's come
-!- to me, Ok...

Don Allen : Oh No, I'm not suggesting you did.  What I am suggesting is, like 
anything else... 

-!- Margaret : But they're also trying to cross breed... they're trying to
-!- cross breed... 

Don Ecker : It's like anything else in this field...

-!- Margaret : This is the other thing they were trying to tell us, that  
-!- they're trying to cross breed with human forms to become more human like
-!- so that they can take over the earth.  Now that's really frightening.

Don Ecker : Well, in that case I think I'll go home and oil my shotgun.

>Dr. Boylan : Well, I haven't heard any accounts of that kind.

-!- Margaret : Well, but what the main message is, is to always be your most
-!- positive and the negative ones can't get you, they can't harm you.

Don Ecker : Well, my recommendation would be to treat everything with a grain
of salt until we have a lot more information.  Margaret, thank you for your
call.  Please keep listening.

-!- Margaret : Hey, your welcome.

Don Ecker : Ok, let's go to Miles in Woodland Hills on CVI.  Good evening
Miles.

-!- Miles : Hi Don, how are you doing tonight?

Don Ecker : I'm fine, thank you.

-!- Miles : Good to talk to you once again.  I've got two questions tonight.
-!- The first one, I would like to ask Dr. Boylan.  The real trouble I have 
-!- with the... actually correlating aliens with the abductions is that the 
-!- high degree of technology that it must take for them to get here, say 
-!- coming from the Pleiades or some other point out in space, then having
-!- the real low tech medical techniques of, taking skin samples and scooping
-!- skin out and the two don't seem to add up to me and I'd like you to 
-!- comment on that, what you feel about... cause it seems that most of the 
-!- abductees comment about you know getting sperm and ovary samples taken 
-!- from them, and seems to me that they should be... we're on the verge of 
-!- doing that type of cell engineering right now ourselves, if they're that 
-!- advanced they shouldn't need all that.

>Dr. Boylan : Well, I think we really have to be real cautious Miles, about
>anthropomorphism, you know, taking the human point of view about what the
>extraterrestrials are up to. It's always very very difficult and 
>anthropologists always warn us that we're really prone to that.  What seems 
>to be, in my view and there's some evidence for that in the accounts some 
>experiencers tell from dialog mentally with the extraterrestrials, is that 
>this sampling isn't so much to figure out how our DNAs put together, you 
>know, one sample should be enough to do that, but it's more individual 
>monitoring of the experiencers personal individuals health, you know, how 
>much heavy metals has this guy picked up, or you know, how's his physical 
>health doing?  Is there something that needs correction or adjustment here.  
>These are moors (sp) readouts, information gathering about the specific 
>individual as to what he or she is doing health wise, rather than trying to 
>figure out homo sapiens as a species on a DNA basis.

-!- Miles : I see.  Also Don, I've got a question for you to.

Don Ecker : Yeah.

-!- Miles : I know about seven police officers back in Pennsylvania that had
-!- a series of UFO sightings and also encounters back in Fredricksburg and
-!- Meedville in and around 1975.  I was wondering while you were a 
-!- police officer back there, did you have any sightings like that? 

Don Ecker : Nope, I sure didn't.  

-!- Miles : Oh Ok.

Don Ecker : Thank you Miles, let's go to Greg in Van Nuys.  Good evening Greg 

-!- Greg : Hi Don.  Richard how long do you believe that this is going on?
-!- How long have these beings being visiting us and how long have they been
-!- abducting people?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, I don't know the answer to that, how long it's been going
>on.  Definitively I think there are some indicators that tell us things.  
>Just in my own research sample, I have a grandmother age individual who has
>this... the family tradition passed down from her grandmother of something
>that sounds like an extraterrestrial contact experience.  Now that would put
>it what three to six generations back, but there are other indications of
>extraterrestrial contact in anthropological evidence, besides things like
>the Nazca (sp?) lines and what Zechariah Stichins has come up with from
>this Sumerian literature.  I went back to Chaco Canyon (sp?) several weeks
>ago on some follow up research and the ancient Anasazi the ancestors
>of the Pueblo indians here, centuries ago had straight lines from Chaco 
>Canyon out to the out layer communities hundreds of miles away in all 
>directions that went over hills and valleys without any respecting of the 
>terrain.  These sixteen foot wide straight as an arrow paths make no sense 
>in terms of foot paths or trade routes.  In fact many of them could only be 
>spotted from the air, were finally mapped and it looks like we have our only 
>Nazca lines here in the United States.  There are a number of indicators 
>that primitive civilizations have come into contact with beings and have 
>honored those contacts by creating symbols and designs that only can be seen 
>from the air when humans didn't know how to go up in the air, you know, 
>there's some such evidence that suggests that extraterrestrials may well 
>have been visiting us for millennia, and some of the experiencers say that 
>they've been told by the extraterrestrials that they have been visiting us 
>for a very long time. 

-!- Greg : I see, Ok, thank you very much.

Don Ecker : Alright Greg, thank you.

-!- Greg : Ok Don, Bye Bye.

Don Ecker : Good night.  Richard... 

>Dr. Boylan : Uh huh.

Don Ecker : If in fact these are extraterrestrial visitors and in my book I
can not definitively say that, because I don't know and I don't know of 
anyone that has proof that is forthcoming and definitively say they are ET, 
but we'll work on that assumption.  If they are coming here and if it is in 
fact for our benefit.  The first part of my question is what have they done 
for the people that you have worked with, that convinced you that it is of a 
beneficent nature?  What have they done that have improved these people?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, it's the experiencers attitudes themselves that convinced
>me.  I've really tried to come at this as a scientist without assuming 
>either positive or negative, but just letting the data walk at me and making
>of it what it seems to have to say, and working with people with no 
>particular assumptions, but just having them spill out what's bottled up in 
>them, and take a look at it and remember all of the contacts, and this is 
>where it really helps to have a professional involved with these people, 
>because you know, you can have people really get in touch with their 
>feelings.  The appropriate use of clinical hypnosis to recover total 
>memories, and what people often have when they've not been worked with 
>professionally is, they only remember the scary parts of their encounter, 
>but they don't remember the rest of it, the kind of, if you'll pardon the 
>expression, the human dialog, the emotional content, the caring, the 
>concern...

Don Ecker : Well, the people... we're running close on time now...

>Dr. Boylan : Yeah.

Don Ecker : What I want to find out.  The people that you have worked with, 
what did they tell you that these intelligences did to them, and what was it
that convinced you that this is beneficent?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, it's the experiencers themselves, they come out of these
>experiences feeling awe, deeply touched, their minds have been expanded, 
>their consciousness... 

Don Ecker : All right let me approach it from a different angle...

>Dr. Boylan : Yeah...

Don Ecker : Let me approach it from a different angle.  What is happening 
during the course of this abduction experience ?  I know you don't like that  
word, but the for the hour and a half or two hours that these people are with
these intelligences, what is happening ?

>Dr. Boylan : Well, there's a lot of dialog, there's in some cases, there's 
>if they're removed to a craft, there's some what we'd consider to be 
>scientific or medical kinds of examination procedures, there's some 
>instruction going on, they're being shown things.  They're being engaged in 
>a highly personalized way in some cases by beings that are doing education.  
>Other cases with kind of a loving gaze and an engaging kind of mental 
>connection.  There's a lot of variety.

Don Ecker : Well, I don't mean to be rude, but I find it highly unlikely that
a sentient being would travel light years to come to earth and gaze with 
love on somebody.  That does not compute.

>Dr. Boylan : Well, I tried to use a little shorthand for at least the higher
>races visiting as that there, but like Zen monks, you know, they have a 
>respect for all, to use your own words "sentient" life forms.  They see a 
>kinship and that all life has to be reverenced.  That's often the message 
>they give us to, that we should not be dismissive of animals and other life 
>forms, and because they understand the kinship and the sacredness and 
>reverence of all life forms, they recognize us as a bright fairly 
>intelligent life forms, you know, a cut above the animal kingdom and more 
>bracketed in with them than with other layers of life forms, and so they see 
>a kinship there that makes them want to bring us forward and finish the rest 
>of our mental and spiritual evolution, so that they can share the gift of 
>fully expanded consciousness and evolution more fully with us, help us kind 
>of fast forward if you will.

Don Ecker : Well, you know what would convince me?

>Dr. Boylan : What?

Don Ecker : That they were simply coming here to assist humankind, which and
I've got to tell you, I don't by that.  I think whatever they're doing, 
they're coming under their own agenda, but if I were to be convinced, I would
be convinced if they would come out and say, ok this is how we can assist you
in healing the ozone depletion or we will work with you in coming up with a
cure for cancer, or aids, or we're going to show you how to make the 
transition from a fossil fuel based economy to something that is clean and 
efficient non polluting, or we're going to show you how to achieve the same
type 
of nutritional balance by growing this crop or that crop, and you will no 
longer have the need to butcher and kill animals for food sources.  That 
would be something I would think that would be of a beneficent nature for 
humankind, but you know, as far as we are a spiritual being, I don't need 
anyone to come down from the sky to teach me how to be more spiritual.  I 
already know what I personally believe and I think everybody else is 
somewhere in there also.  So what I'm saying Richard, I think whatever is 
happening has been happening a long time and it's happening under a 
particular agenda that we do not understand or even necessarily perceive.

>Dr. Boylan : Well, I would be the first to agree that we don't completely 
>understand their agenda, that would require their perspective and their 
>mental capacity to do.  I personally consider that the human race has some 
>room left to grow, and I would not consider it preposterous if they come 
>with the agenda of wanting to nudge us in that direction.  Some of the 
>examples you've given of beneficents are in the technological realm.  I 
>think that they're...

Don Ecker : No, it was all in the realm of improving the human condition.

>Dr. Boylan : Yeah, but things like cancer cures or better grain hybrids to
>get better crop yields are what one might call technological.  I don't think 
>that that's the burden of their basic message, their top priority.  I think
>there is some nudging of through mental influence on us to move forward in
>those directions.  When you look at the technological advance in the last
>fifty years in the United States, last forty-five years compared to the rest
>of human history, there are more than a few commentators who believe that
>there's some external influence on these quantum leaps forward of 
>technology, and it's not all just bright humans sitting down coming up with 
>bright ideas.  I wouldn't preclude that there's been an extraterrestrial 
>influence on the technological leap forward either.

Don Ecker : Ok, your book is going to be coming out this fall.   

>Dr. Boylan : Yeah.

Don Ecker : When exactly, do you have a date on it?  

>Dr. Boylan : Well, let's say August 31st for lack of a more precise date.
>That's probably close enough.  That's when Wild Flower press expects to have
>it out.

Don Ecker : And the title on it is "Close Extraterrestrial Encounters".

>Dr. Boylan : Yeah, and subtitled "First hand personal accounts and research 
>findings".  There's nine experiences of contact in there and telling their 
>individual stories, and then I do the rest of the book talking about what 
>I've found in kind of an overall way, about the extraterrestrials what 
>they're up to, why they're here, what contacts feel like, how to get past 
>the scary part of it to the more settled in part of it, etc.  It should be
>I think the bible on extraterrestrial contact, if I may say so immodestly.

Don Ecker : Alright, and is this going to be available in various book 
stores.

>Dr. Boylan : Yeah, this should be out there in general book store 
>distributorship.

Don Ecker : Ok, now one of the last things we're down to about the last 
minute or so, and I just received this today and I'm not going to go into any 
detail, but somebody had sent to me, that two of your former patients or 
people that you have worked with have initiated a suit.  Is there any truth 
in that? 

>Dr. Boylan : Well, the suit has been filed, it is based on false and 
>slanderous allegations.  You know obviously my attorneys have suggested that 
>I not get into the particulars of this because of the pending litigation...

Don Ecker : Ok, that's one of the reasons I didn't mention it until now.  I
didn't know whether you would be able to speak about it or not, but 
unfortunately this is the type of thing I guess that someone in your position 
has to always be cognizant of and ready for, I would imagine.  Does it have 
to do with anything having to do with ET?

>Dr. Boylan : Oh, very much.  That's exactly, you know, what it's about, and
>without again trying to follow my attorneys advice not to get into the 
>particulars.  I think probably the best anecdote is one of my fellow UFO 
>researchers said to me, "well Richard you must be getting to close to the
>truth because they're starting to do the smear stuff on you".

Don Ecker : Do you think that these two individuals have any, for the want of
a better, you know, any governmental or any ties that would suggest that?

>Dr. Boylan : We're looking into the evidence for that, but I can't really 
>comment on it at this point in time. 

Don Ecker : Ok, well Richard that's the end of it.  Can you hold on for just  
a moment and I'll speak to you right after the show.  I want to thank you for 
coming on the air tonight.

                 The End 
**********************************************
* THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo *
**********************************************