textfiles/ufo/UFOBBS/2000/2264.ufo

SUBJECT: THE MAURY POVICH SHOW - ALIEN ABDUCTIONS SEP/13/94  FILE: UFO2264




HOST: Maury Povich

EXECUTIVE PROCUCER: Maury Povich

MAURY POVICH: POVICH: All right. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. 
My--thank you, everyone.

My first guests today are a Harvard psychiatrist, a marketing director and a 
therapist. So now you might be asking, what do these three have in common?

Jone Victoria, the marketing director, and Sharon King, the therapist, say 
they have been abducted by aliens. And Dr. John Mack is the Pulitzer Prize-
winning Harvard psychiatrist who has interviewed them and who believes them. 
He has written a book called "Abduction."

Now before we go crazy, before we go off our rocker, before we start thingking 
about, 'Ooh,' let's confess. In the four years that we have been on the air, 
we have never done a show about aliens. quite frankly, the reason is because a 
lot of us are skeptical. But more and more people are relating incredibly 
believable experiences. In fact, a recent poll says three million Americans--
three million--believe that they have been abducted. I guess there is 
something going on here, and that's why we're doing this show.

We've also invited Sal Amendola, a professional illustrator, to sketch what 
our guests are describing today to help us get a picture of their experiences.

So let's start with June. June, when--Jone, when was the last time that you 
had an experience, Jone?

Ms. JONE VICTORIA (Says She Has Been Abducted By Aliens Throughout Her Life): 
It was August 9th of this year. And I live in a very small town. And what 
happened was, it got to be about 9:00, and I said to my son and a friend of 
his that was staying overnight, Let's --let's get in the car. Let's go out for 
ice cream. And what's so unusual about that particular thing is because 
usually I'm in bed by 8:00, because we get up very early, at 4:00, in the 
morning. But it was just like, go out, take the kids, let's go.

POVICH: You had this urge to go out?

Ms. VICTORIA: Just to go out.

POVICH: And you had your son...

Ms. VICTORIA: And a friend...

POVICH: ...and his friend in the car?

Ms. VICTORIA: Mm-hmm. About 16 years old.

POVICH: And you've told this story to our production staff.

Ms. VICTORIA: Yes.

POVICH: And based on your story, we kind of recreated this trip you had in 
your car, and this is how it went.

Ms. VICTORIA: Two weeks ago, I was--took the kids out for ice cream. And we 
were driving down this main road, and we looked up over the treetops and we 
saw very close to the treetops this huge, like 600 feet long huge, triangular 
ship with lights on all three points of the ship. You know, everthing in my 
mind was saying, Is it--is it a plane? is it something the government did? Is 
it a weather ballon? You know, what could it be? Because you're trying to make 
sense out of it. You want to make sense out of it because you don't want to 
believe what you're really seeing.

POVICH: Now how did you know it was a ship?

Ms. VICTORIA: Well, the first thing that struck me was, something was really 
low to the tree line, and that particular sighting was over an overpass of an 
expressway. We were on a main road at that point. And I looked up, the first 
thing I did was I did this like Rolladex checlist in my mind. Is that a 
helicopter, is that plane? It's too low. Because, you know, you're thinking 
it's going to crash. And then I thought, 'No, it's--is that a balloon? Is it a 
dirigible? You know, you go through everthing in you mind. At the same time, 
my son, who was in the passenger seat, the front passenger seat...

POVICH: How old is your son?

Ms. VICTORIA: Almost 16--started--I can't repeat his language. He started 
really swearing, like, 'What the hell is that?' And we realized that we put 
the windows down, and it was totally silent. Now by this time, we are almost 
directly underneath it. And I pulled over to the right, and the car behind me 
pulled over to the right. So both of us were seeing the same--you know, he saw 
something, I saw something.

POVICH: And as I understand it, afterwards you had your son and his friend...

Ms. VICTORIA: We followed it.

POVICH: And they sketched what they saw?

Ms. VICTORIA: They did. I took them home after the sighting, and--because I 
wanted to see if they saw what I saw. So when we went home, I gave them paper, 
and I said, 'I want both of you to sketch what you think you saw.'

POVICH: And this is what they sketched. Independently they sketched the same 
shape of a ship.

Ms. VICTORIA: Same shape, with lights on all points.

POVICH: Now let's go back. This isn't new to you, is it, Jone?

Ms. VICTORIA: No.

POVICH: Not at all?

Ms. VICTORIA: No.

POVICH: How long have you been seeing...

Ms. VICTORIA: Over...

POVICH: ...and being contacted by and basically in the company of what we 
would consider aliens?

Ms. VICTORIA: Over 40 years. That's a long time.

POVICH: You have memories of childhood?

Ms. VICTORIA: Yes.

POVICH: And we have recreated one of your memories. So let's take a look at 
that and see how you describe that.

Ms. VICTORIA: My most vivide recollections I have is when I was six years old 
playing in this backyard. And when I was playing, I was seeing five dogs two 
yards down, kind of jumping over each other, and then they started immediately 
to fight, and it got very nasty. And when I was playing here, I stopped and I 
looked down at them, and I thought, 'I can read their mind. They are going to 
attack me.' And I started running to the back door to get to my mother, and I 
never got to the door, and the dogs were immediately on me and they were 
attacking me. I remember at the time thinking, 'They're biting me, they're 
hurting me,' and just screaming. I found out they weren't dogs at all. they 
were very short aliens, very ugly type looking life forms. Just to be standing 
here and looking at it all is emotionally--it's an overwhelming felling for me 
right now.

POVICH: Now let me ask you about this. This memory of yours, have you held 
since childhood, or did you have to go under hypnosis to remember it?

Ms. VICTORIA: I just--this year I went through regress-regression therapy with 
Dr. Mack. Up until that point, I always thought, you know, oh, that was an 
experience that happened to me. I could feel them...

POVICH: Which you always throught you were around dogs and dogs were biting 
you?

Ms. VICTORIA: But, you know, when you--when yu say something like, 'Oh, I 
could read dogs' minds,' I mean, think about that. That's totally illogical. 
But I believed that, and I was afraid of dogs my whole life.

POVICH: How did you know they were aliens?

Ms. VICTORIA: When I went under regression therapy, I--Dr. Mack said somehting 
very important to me. He said,'Look at the dogs, and are they dogs in your 
neighborhood?' As soon as he said that to me, it was--I can't explain it, but 
it was like a veil came off the masked memory, and I realized, 'Oh, my God, 
those aren't dogs at all.'

POVICH: Were these aliens that looked like dogs?

Ms. VICTORIA: No.

POVICH: What did they look like?

Ms. VICTORIA: They were short. They were approximately three feet high, baybe 
a little taller. It's hard to say because I was so little.

POVICH: What did their faces look like?

Ms. VICTORIA: Ugly. It just...

POVICH: Were they like--was there one eye, two eyes?

Ms. VICTORIA: Ugly like--it's almost as if--like I have on that particular 
intelligence, I don't have any distinguishing features on their faces. I just 
knew that they were very dark and very short. And I knew I closed my eyes.

POVICH: With hair? Without hair?

Ms VICTORIA: I can't say that they had hair, no.

POVICH: There was one other recreation that we did of an experience that you 
had. And as I--is this the one in the field?

Ms. VICTORIA: Yes.

POVICH: What happened there? Well, let's take a look and then we'll ask you 
about it.

Ms. VICTORIA: About four years ago, my partner Steve and I always would take 
walks at night in the woods, you know, just before it got really dark. And it 
was a way of unwinding after work. And we were coming back from the path to 
the house, and we got to about here, and I became really disoriented to the 
part that I had like this anxiety attack. I was very, very nervous, very 
frightened. And it was then that I realized that I had been out here at night 
looking up, and I realized I had either been left here or taken from here. 
Something had happened her, and it had happened to me.

POVICH: What do you remember happened then?

Ms. VICTORIA: When I had the anxiety attack, I was only a few yards from my 
house. And when it happened, I realized I couldn't evern find the path that 
I'd known so well. And I got really like just almost in a fetal position. It 
was really frightening for me. And I kept looking up like I was supposed to 
see something. You know when you try to remember a dream and you get flashes 
of it during the day? It was just like that. And I thought, 'Oh, my God. I 
have been out here at night, taken from my home, from my bedroom. I've been 
here in the middle of the night,' and that whole incident--I mean, it was just 
terrifying for me.

POVICH: You told all these to Dr. Mack, right?

Ms. VICTORIA: Yeah.

POVICH: What did you think about them in the beginning, Doctor?

Dr. JOHN MACK (MD, Harvard Psychiatrist, Believes Alien Abduction Happens): 
Well, I had worked with many people before I met Jone and was very familiar 
with these accounts. And one of the things--points I want to make really clear 
is that the people themselves are highly skeptical of their own experiences. 
They--the last thing they want to know or hear is that the've had some 
encounter that is mysterious with some sort of intelligence that--before which 
the're helpless. And they, like myself, are highly skeptical about what this 
is. But it's only when you hear these complex, detailed accounts from person 
after person after person, people who are not in touch with each other, 
reporting details that are not in the media, troubled by their experiences, 
wanting to find any other explanation...

POVICH: Right.

Dr. MACK: ...after a while you begin to realize that there's a pattern here 
that as a psychiatrist I can't explain.

POVICH: OK. When we come back, Sharon shares with us the terror she feels when 
she's had an encounter with an alien.

(Announcements)

POVICH: OK. We're back, and we want to hear Sharon's experiences.

Maybe-by the way, you work as what , Sharon?

Ms. SHARON KING (Says She Has Been Abducted By Aliens Throughout Her Life): 
I'm a counselor. I work with recovering adult children from alcoholic and 
dysfunctional families and sexual abuse survivors.

POVICH: Good work.

Ms. KING: Yes, it is.

POVICH: Tell me about your experiences. Ongoing?

Ms. KING: Ongoing since the age of perhaps five. Quite honestly, if someone 
had said to me five years ago that I would be here today and I would be 
dealing with this phenomenon, I would have said that they were crazy.

POVICH: When did you realize finally that you had had these encounters?

Ms. KING: Three years ago.

POVICH: How many?

Ms. KING: Three years ago. The memories started coming to me, not through 
hypnosis, but through a therapeutic technique where it's very meditative and 
you breathe into your experience. And then one day as I was going through a 
process, the visions started to come to me. And when I was in where I was--the 
three alien beigns coming toward me.

POVICH: what did they look like?

Ms. KING: They were very much like what Jone was describing. They were about 
three feet tall, a grayish hue to them with fairly large heads and very big 
penetrating eyes.

POVICH: Let me interrrupt here. Gray is an experience--is a name, as I 
understand it, the many...

Ms. KING: Right.

POVICH: ...not only of your patients, Doctor, but many why have had this 
experience use. Gray. Gray--is that the color? Is that the felling you get or 
what?

Ms. KING: For me, it's the color. I also see some bluish ones where they are 
gray, but they also have a bluish tint and they are a little bit taller.

POVICH: We have an audio tape.

Ms. KING: Right.

POVICH: You are under hypnosis at this point?

Ms. KING: Right.

POVICH: Let's listen to this audio tape.

Unidentified Woman #1: (From audio tape) Who is touching you?

Ms. KING: ...(unintelligible)

Woman #1: Have they experimented?

Ms. KING: I don't know what they've done. I think they've taken more ovum. I'm 
not sure. It hurts. The pain.

POVICH: They've--and you're saying they've taken more what?

Ms. KING: More ovum. Part of my memory involves memories of them having taken 
ovum from me. Also...

POVICH: Ovum--get--what is it? I don't know. Refreshy my...

Dr. Mack: Eggs.

POVICH: Eggs--eggs from the ovary.

POVICH: Oh, eggs. Ok. If you would have said eggs, I would have known. Ovum. 
My mom didn't teach me that word.

Ms. KING: And I also have memory of having a fetus taken from me, and that was 
part them, part us--is what I refer to it as.

POVICH:  Didn't you have a memory also of a son being abducted?

Ms. KING: Yes. That was probably one of the most painful things that I did 
remember. Again, that was not under hypnosis that I got the memory. And I know 
that my son and I have been taken together on several different times. I'm not 
really sure. My son is now 18. He has no memory of that.

POVICH: Same beings?

Ms. KING: Same beings.

POVICH: Why would she have a memory, her son doesn't?

Dr. Mack: Well, memory is a very complex process. I mean, one of the reasons 
people don't remember--it's protective not to remember those kind of 
terrifying experiences. You can't go around carrying that kind of terror with 
you on a day-to-day basis. A child, for example, that's been through the 
terror of bing taken up on to a ship or whatever this is--it would afflict 
that child's whole childhood if they were--if they were not protected in some 
way from recalling the experience.

POVICH: When we come back, Dianne will join us and we'll hear her experiences. 
Dianne believes she's had sex with an alien.

(Announcements)

POVICH: We're taling with people who say they have had encounters with aliens, 
they've been abducted at times. My guests today are very convincing.

Dianne is an executive in the computer industry. She's had visitations for the 
past five years. How often?

DIANNE (Says She Has Yearly Encounters With Alien Beings): They were once a 
year until last fall. Now they are every couple of weeks.

POVICH: Now let's get to my teasing out of the last segment and getting us to 
here. You've had sex with them?

DIANNE: Let's get it over with.

POVICH: Yeah. Let's talk about it.

DIANNE: It's true. It was terrorizing experience that I had last December. It 
was my fifth yearly experience, the secound which I had the courgage to turn 
around and take a look at what was going on. The--it was waking up in the 
middle of an experience that was already occurring, and it was in my room in 
my home in Massachusetts. And there were some movements of an arm over my 
chest really fast. And I had had, you know, many years of experiences, and the 
year before, I had seen something else. So I kept quiet.

POVICH: Were you able to see a shape?

DIANNE: I just saw an arm, and I kept quiet, making like I wan't going to open 
my eyes totally, because I felt that if I opened my eyes and they found out I 
was awake, they would black me out, which they do. And I wanted to see what 
was going on. And I sure did. A face came right on to mine within inches of a 
small, dark gray being, and we stared at each other for three seconds.

POVICH: A dark gray being?

DIANNE: Yes. I very clearly saw the face.

POVICH: Eyes?

DIANNE: Yes.

POVICH: Two eyes?

DIANNE: It had almond-shaped eyes that were not from here to here. They were 
not as slanted as other ones I've drawn. They were slightly slanted, 
oversized. There was two holes where the nose would be and a little bone that 
stuck out and a mouth that seemed in a grim, 'I do not like you,' position. I 
felt tlike I --like that face didn't care whether I lived or died. It was 
very, very frightening. It then came away, realizing I was awake, got out of 
my sight to the right. I realized there was a second one of the same size and 
color there, but I couldn't move my head. They started screeching. I think it 
had upset them that I was conscious.

POVICH: An audible screech?

DIANNE: Screeching.

POVICH: Words...

DIANNE: Like mice. It sounded like mice. It was--it was like animals. It was--
just added to the terror of the experience. So I'm not--I'm not with humans. 
This thing was really ugly. I have never seen anything like this before. It's 
not human. Now all of a sudden, through the doorway of my room, comes a white 
being that was slightly taller. It comes in and crawls to the foot of my bed, 
crouches down and looks at me, right down the top of me. And all that went 
through my mind was to take in the face as much as I could, and what the heck 
is this thing going to do to me? I thought--I knew I was going to get 
attacked. I have never been in the presence of anyone--any man who has meant 
me harm, and for that split second, I fell that I may have experienced the 
real terror of going to get abused. And he tilted his head. When he saw my--
you know, the horror on my face--tilted his head, crawled up the bed and 
touched his face to my cheek. And as soon as he did that, I wasn't afraid 
anymore. I am not saying I didn't--I'm not saying I wanted those things in my 
room, but it was like I was immediately in lala-land. And not liking it, but 
just being totally like drugged out and--and like going along. And it was--the 
rest of the experience was a length one, which I really don't wasnt to 
discuss.

POVICH: It was sexual?

DIANNE: It was definitely sexual. It was almost like what kept happening was, 
he was--he was playing little reels of past experiences I had had with my ex-
husband, a sexual encounter with my husband--like playing it back. And then 
I'd said, 'No,no.' I know that what I just saw, some people in my room So I'd 
snap out of it and see this thing--he was laying on me. And he kept trying to 
get me to like relive another sexual encounter. So I can't be sure if he was 
having sex with me. All I know was that he was definitely lying on top of me, 
and he felt featherlight, which was even more creepy. He couldn't have weighed 
30 pounds.

POVICH: Questions? Yes.

Unidentified Woman #2: For the woman in the blue, is it difficult to be 
intimate with you boyfriend after this experience?

Ms. VICTORIA: Sure. Yeah.

POVICH: Well, let's move...

Ms VICTORIA: It's not something--I mean, it's not something I really--I really 
discuss because...

POVICH: Let's move to Dianne, because your experiences did have an effect on--
on your life, didn't they?

DIANNE: My life is--someone just did this. I mean, my parents told me...

POVICH: Your marrigage broke up?

DIANNE: My marriage is over.

POVICH: And now you have, as I understand it, a fiance who is supportive--
doesn't believe it, but is supportive?

DIANNE: Yes. He's wonderful. He doesn't believe it. He doesn't really--he 
doesn't like it when I come down the stairs the next mornign--you know, he 
comes out of the shower...

POVICH: What's he going to think if you come on national television and talk 
about it?

DIANNE: He--he's one of those incrediable people that --I think he's an angel 
because I don't think that there's anyone out htere who doesn't believe that 
would be as supportive. But he--he thinks I may have repercussions. He is more 
concerned over--I'm going to get ridiculed like crazy fro doing this, but why 
I'm talking about it? I'm not holding this in. Some nasty stuff is going on, 
and I'm not going to keep quiet about it. And I'm hoping that I don't lose 
friends or job over this. I don't think I will, because I've done some things-
-so far so good, but I don't know about now.

Dr. MACK: One of the points I want to emphasize, each of these women--and I 
admire enormously their courage for being willing to go--speak publicly about 
this, because I think that the American people and people around the world 
need to realize that something--even though we don't understand it, that we--
somehting that we can't explain is going on here that needs to be looked at 
realistically and not sort of ridiculed or try to reduce to some conventional 
explanation.

POVICH: When we come back, a woman who has proof of an alien encounter. She 
caught it on videotape, she claims.

Ms. DEBBIE JORDAN (Says An Alien Encounter Changed Her Life): (From videotape) 
What's that--what's that light? What is that in the road? What is that?

Unidentified Man #1: I don't know.

(Announcements)

POVICH: These days more and more people are coming forward admitting that 
they've had encounters with aliens. Debbie Jordan is one of these people. 
She's written a book about her experiences called "Abducted," although she 
admits that she is sometimes a little skeptical herself. Also joining us is 
Dr. William Cone. He is a clinical psychologist. Hes says that there is a 
rational explanaiton for everything that we've heard so far. Your last 
experience was--was when, Debbie?

Ms. DEBBIE JORDAN: September of '93.

POVICH: OK. What happened?

Ms. JORDAN: Well, we were watching TV one night, my late husband and a couple 
house guests, and I saw a light outside the front of the house. We live on a 
farm. And we all went running out to see what it was. At first I thought it 
had to be a helicopter that had a spotlight on that was just coming towards me 
and made it look brighter. But I kept watching it, and it was doing funny 
things, so I hollered for everybody. We all went outside. My husband went back 
in and tot the video camera, and the videotape--you know, it's not too 
terribly impressive, I didn't think. But at least it was there. We saw it. And 
at some points it looked like my husband got it brighter by using the zoom on 
the camera, but he wasn't.

POVICH: OK. Let's take a look at it and we'll see what happened on the tape. 
In other words, as it gets brighter, he didn't do anything to the camera?

Ms. JORDAN: No.

POVICH: OK.

(The following is from Jordan's videotape)

Unidentified Girl: Mama, what's that?

Ms. JORDAN: What's that--what's that light in the d--what's that in the road? 
What is that?

Man #1: I don't know.

Girl: Is that a doggy?

Man#1: Got a--got something in the road here standing in the raod. Do you 
think that's real?

Ms. JORDAN: It's something.

Unidentified Woman #3: Ther ain't no damn way--this is weird. There is an 
airplane above it. See the airplane above it just...

Ms. JORDAN: Yes.

Woman #3: ...a little bit to the west of it?

Ms. JORDAN: Yes.

Woman #3: Look at it.

(End of excerpt from videotape)

POVICH: We don't see much there.

Ms. JORDAN: You don't--it--the--the tape is quite long. In the beginning there 
is more where it gets really bright. But at one point we saw something coming 
down the road toward us walking on the road out in the country.

POVICH: Do you remember what that looked like?

Ms. JORDAN: It was about a head taller than the fence post, however tall that 
is. The head was shaped like a lightbulb, and it was real thin. And I though--
I told myself, 'That's got to be an animal. That's a deer or something.'

POVICH: You don't want to believe these things?

Ms. JORDAN: Well, I got to live here. I got--you know, I got kids to raise. I 
got responsibilities. It doesn't fit in with what I know is our kind of 
reality.

POVICH: And yet you've had experiences?

Ms. JORDAN: I've had a bunch, and I've always tried to...

POVICH: Not just seeing them?

Ms. JORDAN: No. I've always tried to rationalize everything away. You know, 
after this happened, I had a hysterectomy. I had a hysterectomy six days after 
this happened. Before this happened, I had an ultrasound and tow other doctors 
examined me, and they said I had a tumor. After the hysterectomy was 
performed, I had all kinds of horrible things wrong with me. They couldn't 
save anything. The doctor's exact words were, my female organs were trashed. 
But the tumor wasn't there.

POVICH: And you can't explain it?

Ms. JORDAN: I can't explain it. I know what it seems like, and I don't want to 
believe that.

POVICH: What you want to believe is that these beings had an effect on that?

Ms. JORDAN: I want to--I don't want to believe that, but it seems that way to 
me, you know.

POVICH: All right, Dr. Cone. Here you are.

Dr. WILLIAM CONE (Ph.D., Believes Abductees Are Mistaken About Their 
Experiences): OK.

POVICH: Convincing? To some people. To many people, these stories are very 
convincing.

Dr. CONE: Absolutely. Well, let me say a couple things aobut what's going on 
right now in this country and something that I think is really dangerous. 
Right now we have thousands of people who are coming to therapy, going to a 
therapist who does regressive hypnosis and recovering memories, either satanic 
ritual abuse memories, alien abduction memories or memories of multiple 
personality. The people come with the same kind of symptoms, the same kind of 
stories, sexual problems, sexual dysfunctions, sleep disorders, creatures that 
come in the night. If you got to a satanic ritual abuse therapist and get 
regressed hypnotically, what you're going to get is satanic ritual abuse 
memories. If you go to an alien abduction therapist, you're going to get alien 
abduction memories. What comes out is highly function of the belief system of 
the doctor that's working on the patient. I think this is dangerous.

POVICH: So is it the doc--is it the doctor that's doing this to you or is it 
you who is seeking comfort with the doctor?

Dr. CONE: It's not--it's not really the doctor that's doing it to you. And by 
the way, I'm not saying this is true in all cases.

Ms. JORDAN: It's not true in my case at all.

Dr. CONE: And I don't want to dispute that, but...

Dr. MACK: I can't speak for all doctors. I know that this was the furthest 
thing from my belief system when I--this--it was the power of the data that 
changed the way I looked at this, not any belief system I had.

POVICH: And the data to you are the stories. I mean, because your friend--for 
instance, Carl Sagan in--The New York--New York Times Magazine did a story on 
Dr. Mack, and it quoted Carl Sagan, who we know is the famous astronomer, and 
Carl Sagan, who's a friend of his, says the problem is all this information 
is, quote, 'anecdotal.' It's stories. Ther is no solid...

Dr. MACK: Yeah. You've got to watch the buzz words here in the resistance to 
this phenomenon. Anecdotal is translated as human experience.

Ms. JORDAN: But what about physical evidence?

Dr. MACK: But we have--there is physical evidence.

Ms. JORDAN: I have...

Dr. MACK: We don't have anything but human experience to go on. If we're going 
to call that anecdotal, we're nothing but anecdotes. Thats all we are.

Ms. KING: If I can't trust my human experience, what can I trust?

Dr. CONE: Well, the difficulty with that is a lot of us can't trust our human 
experiences. And I'm--I'm not saying all these people are msitaken. And, by 
the way, I didn't have any investment, any belief system, when I started 
working with this. I think one of the things that I have been able to 
experience is--being a clinical psychologist, I've worked with satanic abuse 
people and alien abductees, and I find a great deal of parallel in the 
populations. They're very similar. The work is very similar. The way the 
memories are recovered is very simailar. And--and I can't help but think that 
at least in part a lot of these people are coming--are being led to believe 
this is happening to them when, in fact, it isn't.

Ms. JORDAN: Nobody leads me to believe what happened to me.

Ms. VICTORIA: And I resent this inference of satanic ritual with our 
experience. You know, with all due respect, Doctor, you've never seen me, 
we've never spoken, you know nothing of me, you know nothing of these people.

Dr. CONE: Absolutely not. And I'm not disputing your experience.

Ms. VICTORIA: For you to bring up something so--I mean, absolutely 
diametrically opposingly different thing with UFO experiences and satanic 
rituals...

Dr. CONE: The only thing that's different is the memories that come out from 
your unconscious.

Dr. MACK: Also, let me make a point here. Dr. Cone is trying to find a 
psychological explanation here. And even if the psychological explanation had 
some plausibility, you have to keep in mind that this phenomenon occurs in 
children as young as two and three years old who have not had the opportunity 
to develop these psychological structures. It also is related to physical 
findings on people's bodies--cuts, scoop marks, lesions, which are highly 
detailed.

Dr. CONE: Which is also ...(unintelligible) to satanic abuse victims.

Dr. MACK: Well-- but then you're--that doesn't make it not true if it's 
similar to somehting else. And also the tight association with UFOs, which are 
observed independently by neighbors, and, in one case of my own, a woman had 
the experience, did notsee the UFO, and then there was--followed in the media 
by all the televison channels a UFO that was following the same course of 
where she had been. And that occurs in case after case after case where you 
have the community, the television media, spotting, following tracking a UFO. 
The person themselves doesn't know about the UFO being seen, and they're 
having the experience. A psychological explanaiton simply won't hold up when 
you have this independent kind of witnessing.

POVICH: Recently another word has come into our life. It is called Roswell. 
What happened in Roswell, New Mexico--how many years ago--in 1947? Was that 
real? We have the man who wrote the book about it, after this.

(Announcements)

POVICH: Yeah.

Unidentified Woman#4: I have a question for the psychiatrist. I would like to 
know why do they keep visiting the same people over and over? A second 
question is, are there male and female aliens?

Dr. MACK: What they do is establish a relationship with somebody, and this 
goes on from--sometimes people have memories from their earliest childhood 
throughout their entire lives. Some kind of connection, some kind of 
relationship between this energy, these beings, this species, whatever this 
is. We don't have words for it. But it goes on throughout the person's life, 
and what they tell us and what the beings communicate, and it's--all the 
communication is telepathic. It's not in English or French or German.

POVICH: Let's clear that up.

Dr. MACK: Yeah.

POVICH: You don't hear English being spoken to you, do you?

Ms. KING: What do you mean? Verbally?

POVICH: Yeah.

Ms. KING: I hear what they're saying, and the only way, of course, I can hear 
it is in English.

POVICH: Oh, I see.

Ms. KING: So I do hear, but it's all telepathic. You don't...

POVICH: So they communicate with you and then you kind of filter it through 
and it comes out in English?

Dr. MACK: It's mind direct. Mind to mind. What they say is...

POVICH: Male and female?

Dr. MACK: And the --the people--it's very interesting.

POVICH: That's a yes?

Dr. MACK: The experiencers know male and female, but not in the conventional 
way, becasue they have, you know, long hair or short hair or--you know, the 
know because they sense that a being is female or male.

POVICH: OK. Now what role does the government play when it comes to alien 
encounters? This is why Kevin Randall is here, a special investigator with the 
Center for UFO Studies. He's just written a book called "The Truth About the 
UFO Crash at Roswell." It was an entire show in itself, by the way, your 
investigation--not only a book but on Showtime. And I watched it and 
fascinated by it. But this goes to something else, because Roswell was a 
nuclear facility, correct?

Mr. KEVIN RANDALL (Investigated UFO Crash in Roswell, New Mexico): It was the 
only atomic strike force in the world at the time. When this event took place, 
the 518 bomb group was the only atomic strike force in the world.

POVICH: And there was a crash of a UFO?

Mr. RANDALL: A crash of an alien spacecraft.

POVICH: In 1947?

Mr. RANDALL: We have no idea. All we know is there's an alien spacecraft, they 
crashed, the bodies were recovered by the government and the whole thing was 
covered up. We can prove there was a crash at Roswell by the preponderance of 
the evidence. We can prove there was a cover-up.

POVICH: And by the way, you believe, A, the remains of that craft are still 
being hidden by the government?

Mr. RANDALL: Absolutely.

POVICH: And the remains of the beings?

Mr. RANDALL: Absolutely. You don't destroy a unique biological sample.

POVICH: And that they were taken, placed somewhere, and to this day could be 
retrieved?

Mr. RANDALL: They were taken from the crash site in Roswell, transferred to 
the base at Roswell. One airplane went to Andrews Army Air Field, later 
Andrews Air Force Base, so that the top level of the government could see it. 
Eventually it all ended up at Wright Paterson Air Force Base.

POVICH: And what is the officail explanation of the government?

Mr. RANDALL: The offical explanation, it was a weather balloon, although now 
there's a new...

POVICH: A weather balloon?

Mr. RANDALL: A weather balloon, a raw-wind target balloon if you want to be 
precise, although there's a new explanation coming out. It was really a top-
secret project mogul balloon. All they've done is reinvent the balloon.

POVICH: We'll be back right after this.

(Announcements)

Unidentified Woman#5: I wanted--I wanted to know from Sharon, you said 
something about a fetus being taken from you? Were you in--I don't want to say 
in real life, to separate the two, but from your knowledge were you pregnant 
or had you taken a pregnancy test and then you maybe had a miscarriage or 
something of that sort?

Ms. KING: That's really great. I'm glad you asked the question because I had 
had a miscarriage previous to that. So I knew what a real miscarriage was 
like. And I was probably about two and a half months pregnant when my husband 
and I went to a farm in New Hampshire. And what happened was night--one night 
was that the room became filled withlight. And then I was taken out, and what 
I remember is the fetus being taken from me. And I have always said whenever I 
went to a doctor, you know, they say, 'How many times pregnant?' I've always 
said I lost tow babies.

POVICH: And when you wentto the doctor after this experience, what did they 
say?

Ms. KING: I was just bleeding very heavily. My period didn't come at its 
normal time or anything like that.

Unidentified Man #2: We have been hearing all bad things. Have there ever been 
any dood or pleasant experiences?

Ms. KING: Absolutely. Absolutely.

POVICH: There have been?

Ms. KING: Yeah. I've had some very wonderful--as John was talking about, the 
relationship you can develop through some of the memory. I know I have a 
special relationship with one who I all Blue, who's taught me a great deal 
about fear, aobut energy and about the situation that they are in, the 
situation that we are in, and why they, in fact, are trying to combine the two 
races. We have things they don't have, and they have things that we don't 
have.

POVICH: Let's talk about this Kevin, Dr. Mack. They are not of this world, 
obviously, these beings. Are they of this solar system? Probably not.

Dr. MACK: I mean, that's the sort of the biggest question, is what is the 
source of this experience? We don't know.

POVICH: And as we go farther out in our solar system and we see that 
they're...

Dr. MACK: We don't know. We dont know. They don't operate according to the 
physical laws as--as we have know them. They enter into our space-time 
universe in ways that we don't understand. We don't--Jack Lalay has decided 
they come from some other dimension. The experiencers will say, 'You don't 
understand this, Doctor, but I am--this is not happening in our space-time 
universe,' when they are describing what's going on.

POVICH: You believe they are from this galaxy?

Mr. RANDALL: They're from this galaxy outside this solar system. Clearly there 
is no place in this solar system where they could have developed.

POVICH: Yeah.

Unidentified Man #3: When I was younger, I had a fever of 103. My brother 
appeared to be a frog. And I really thought, you know, he moved like a frog. 
He didn't speak to me, but now...

POVICH: In your delirium that's what you thought?

Man #3: Delirium. Now I think that--that waht all you witnesses are--are 
seeing and felling and talking to is just a void in your own lives.

DIANNE: One isolated--one isolated case...

Ms. JORDAN: What about he marks in my yard? How did a void cause a mark in my 
yard that lasted five years and kill my dog and make me sick?

DIANNE: One isolated case. I agree. I have had over the last eight months 
experiences that do not get separated by more than two weeks, and even myself-
-even after the December incident last year, I still--I broke down crying 
about it at a support group, and I went back to the work the next day and I 
said--I didn't want to push that out of my mind. But they came after me and 
they continued to come to my house to the point where I am so saturated with 
visitations that I have no choice anymore. It's not an isolated case. It's 
eight months.

Dr. MACK: See, this young man is illustrating what we try to do. We try to 
find a conventional explanation for a mystery. It doesn't make any sense. I 
mean, sure, there is such a thing as what he's describing, which is a delirium 
when you have a high fever and you see things and you hallucinate. This is 
nothing like that. These people are in a--they're not in a fever state. They 
are of sound mind. They are not in some kind of altered mindset. They are not 
on drugs. This happens to sound, healthy people under ordinary circumstances 
of life. It is an authentic mystery.

I think one of the reasons we're so terrified of this thing and why we resist 
it so much is it shows we are not in control, we are not the snartest guys in 
the cosmos. We are helpless, and we need to surrender to something we don't 
understand that can enter our world in ways that we can't explain. And I think 
we can grow a lot if we could at least take it in and accept that there is a 
mystery here.

DIANNE: Don't you wnat to know--the reason I'm on here today, don't--wouldn't 
you want to know that some funny stuff is going on? I have nothing to gain.

POVICH: Yeah. I think the most you can expect is that, 'Wait a second. Maybe 
this--maybe we do move in mysterious ways. Maybe there is a mystery out here 
that is unexplained.

Dr. CONE: The difficulty is there is not that much funny stuff going on, and a 
good proportion of the people that think they've had this experience, haven't 
had the experience.

DIANNE: Baloney. There's plenty of funny stuff going on. Have you had 
experience...

POVICH: We'll be back righ after this.

(Announcements)

POVICH: Those are the sketches that Sal Amandel--Amandella has been doing 
throughout the show of the experiences that our guests have been taling aobut. 
As we leave, show of hands of all those people who the door never opened for 
you. You're still--you're still as much of a disbeliever, doesn't happen, as 
you were when you first came in?

OK. Those hands of those who maybe the door opened a crack--not that you're a 
believer, but now you're open to the possibility. Hands.

OK. Well, you have a majority and a rather attractive minority when it comes 
to people who believe and not believe or the possibility thereof.

I want to thank all of our guests. Kevin, thank you so much. Appreciate your 
coming. Dr. Cone, Debbie, thanks. You're not going to change your mind, right?

Ms. JORDAN: No.

POVICH: You saw what you saw, experienced what you experienced.

Ms. JORDAN: That's right. My dog is dead, I've been changed forever.

POVICH: Dianne, I thank you very much. And Sharon and Jone, thank you very 
much. And especially Dr. Mack for bringing not only some of our guests, but 
your experience and your expertise. I thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Dr. MACK: Thank you.

POVICH: Thank you out there, everyone. Until next time, America.



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