961 lines
41 KiB
Plaintext
961 lines
41 KiB
Plaintext
SUBJECT: THE MAURY POVICH SHOW - ALIEN ABDUCTIONS SEP/13/94 FILE: UFO2264
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HOST: Maury Povich
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EXECUTIVE PROCUCER: Maury Povich
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MAURY POVICH: POVICH: All right. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.
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My--thank you, everyone.
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My first guests today are a Harvard psychiatrist, a marketing director and a
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therapist. So now you might be asking, what do these three have in common?
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Jone Victoria, the marketing director, and Sharon King, the therapist, say
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they have been abducted by aliens. And Dr. John Mack is the Pulitzer Prize-
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winning Harvard psychiatrist who has interviewed them and who believes them.
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He has written a book called "Abduction."
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Now before we go crazy, before we go off our rocker, before we start thingking
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about, 'Ooh,' let's confess. In the four years that we have been on the air,
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we have never done a show about aliens. quite frankly, the reason is because a
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lot of us are skeptical. But more and more people are relating incredibly
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believable experiences. In fact, a recent poll says three million Americans--
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three million--believe that they have been abducted. I guess there is
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something going on here, and that's why we're doing this show.
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We've also invited Sal Amendola, a professional illustrator, to sketch what
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our guests are describing today to help us get a picture of their experiences.
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So let's start with June. June, when--Jone, when was the last time that you
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had an experience, Jone?
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Ms. JONE VICTORIA (Says She Has Been Abducted By Aliens Throughout Her Life):
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It was August 9th of this year. And I live in a very small town. And what
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happened was, it got to be about 9:00, and I said to my son and a friend of
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his that was staying overnight, Let's --let's get in the car. Let's go out for
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ice cream. And what's so unusual about that particular thing is because
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usually I'm in bed by 8:00, because we get up very early, at 4:00, in the
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morning. But it was just like, go out, take the kids, let's go.
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POVICH: You had this urge to go out?
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Ms. VICTORIA: Just to go out.
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POVICH: And you had your son...
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Ms. VICTORIA: And a friend...
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POVICH: ...and his friend in the car?
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Ms. VICTORIA: Mm-hmm. About 16 years old.
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POVICH: And you've told this story to our production staff.
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Ms. VICTORIA: Yes.
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POVICH: And based on your story, we kind of recreated this trip you had in
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your car, and this is how it went.
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Ms. VICTORIA: Two weeks ago, I was--took the kids out for ice cream. And we
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were driving down this main road, and we looked up over the treetops and we
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saw very close to the treetops this huge, like 600 feet long huge, triangular
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ship with lights on all three points of the ship. You know, everthing in my
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mind was saying, Is it--is it a plane? is it something the government did? Is
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it a weather ballon? You know, what could it be? Because you're trying to make
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sense out of it. You want to make sense out of it because you don't want to
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believe what you're really seeing.
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POVICH: Now how did you know it was a ship?
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Ms. VICTORIA: Well, the first thing that struck me was, something was really
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low to the tree line, and that particular sighting was over an overpass of an
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expressway. We were on a main road at that point. And I looked up, the first
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thing I did was I did this like Rolladex checlist in my mind. Is that a
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helicopter, is that plane? It's too low. Because, you know, you're thinking
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it's going to crash. And then I thought, 'No, it's--is that a balloon? Is it a
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dirigible? You know, you go through everthing in you mind. At the same time,
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my son, who was in the passenger seat, the front passenger seat...
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POVICH: How old is your son?
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Ms. VICTORIA: Almost 16--started--I can't repeat his language. He started
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really swearing, like, 'What the hell is that?' And we realized that we put
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the windows down, and it was totally silent. Now by this time, we are almost
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directly underneath it. And I pulled over to the right, and the car behind me
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pulled over to the right. So both of us were seeing the same--you know, he saw
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something, I saw something.
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POVICH: And as I understand it, afterwards you had your son and his friend...
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Ms. VICTORIA: We followed it.
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POVICH: And they sketched what they saw?
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Ms. VICTORIA: They did. I took them home after the sighting, and--because I
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wanted to see if they saw what I saw. So when we went home, I gave them paper,
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and I said, 'I want both of you to sketch what you think you saw.'
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POVICH: And this is what they sketched. Independently they sketched the same
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shape of a ship.
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Ms. VICTORIA: Same shape, with lights on all points.
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POVICH: Now let's go back. This isn't new to you, is it, Jone?
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Ms. VICTORIA: No.
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POVICH: Not at all?
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Ms. VICTORIA: No.
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POVICH: How long have you been seeing...
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Ms. VICTORIA: Over...
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POVICH: ...and being contacted by and basically in the company of what we
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would consider aliens?
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Ms. VICTORIA: Over 40 years. That's a long time.
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POVICH: You have memories of childhood?
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Ms. VICTORIA: Yes.
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POVICH: And we have recreated one of your memories. So let's take a look at
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that and see how you describe that.
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Ms. VICTORIA: My most vivide recollections I have is when I was six years old
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playing in this backyard. And when I was playing, I was seeing five dogs two
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yards down, kind of jumping over each other, and then they started immediately
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to fight, and it got very nasty. And when I was playing here, I stopped and I
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looked down at them, and I thought, 'I can read their mind. They are going to
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attack me.' And I started running to the back door to get to my mother, and I
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never got to the door, and the dogs were immediately on me and they were
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attacking me. I remember at the time thinking, 'They're biting me, they're
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hurting me,' and just screaming. I found out they weren't dogs at all. they
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were very short aliens, very ugly type looking life forms. Just to be standing
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here and looking at it all is emotionally--it's an overwhelming felling for me
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right now.
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POVICH: Now let me ask you about this. This memory of yours, have you held
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since childhood, or did you have to go under hypnosis to remember it?
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Ms. VICTORIA: I just--this year I went through regress-regression therapy with
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Dr. Mack. Up until that point, I always thought, you know, oh, that was an
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experience that happened to me. I could feel them...
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POVICH: Which you always throught you were around dogs and dogs were biting
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you?
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Ms. VICTORIA: But, you know, when you--when yu say something like, 'Oh, I
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could read dogs' minds,' I mean, think about that. That's totally illogical.
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But I believed that, and I was afraid of dogs my whole life.
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POVICH: How did you know they were aliens?
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Ms. VICTORIA: When I went under regression therapy, I--Dr. Mack said somehting
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very important to me. He said,'Look at the dogs, and are they dogs in your
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neighborhood?' As soon as he said that to me, it was--I can't explain it, but
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it was like a veil came off the masked memory, and I realized, 'Oh, my God,
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those aren't dogs at all.'
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POVICH: Were these aliens that looked like dogs?
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Ms. VICTORIA: No.
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POVICH: What did they look like?
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Ms. VICTORIA: They were short. They were approximately three feet high, baybe
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a little taller. It's hard to say because I was so little.
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POVICH: What did their faces look like?
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Ms. VICTORIA: Ugly. It just...
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POVICH: Were they like--was there one eye, two eyes?
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Ms. VICTORIA: Ugly like--it's almost as if--like I have on that particular
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intelligence, I don't have any distinguishing features on their faces. I just
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knew that they were very dark and very short. And I knew I closed my eyes.
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POVICH: With hair? Without hair?
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Ms VICTORIA: I can't say that they had hair, no.
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POVICH: There was one other recreation that we did of an experience that you
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had. And as I--is this the one in the field?
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Ms. VICTORIA: Yes.
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POVICH: What happened there? Well, let's take a look and then we'll ask you
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about it.
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Ms. VICTORIA: About four years ago, my partner Steve and I always would take
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walks at night in the woods, you know, just before it got really dark. And it
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was a way of unwinding after work. And we were coming back from the path to
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the house, and we got to about here, and I became really disoriented to the
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part that I had like this anxiety attack. I was very, very nervous, very
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frightened. And it was then that I realized that I had been out here at night
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looking up, and I realized I had either been left here or taken from here.
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Something had happened her, and it had happened to me.
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POVICH: What do you remember happened then?
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Ms. VICTORIA: When I had the anxiety attack, I was only a few yards from my
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house. And when it happened, I realized I couldn't evern find the path that
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I'd known so well. And I got really like just almost in a fetal position. It
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was really frightening for me. And I kept looking up like I was supposed to
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see something. You know when you try to remember a dream and you get flashes
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of it during the day? It was just like that. And I thought, 'Oh, my God. I
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have been out here at night, taken from my home, from my bedroom. I've been
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here in the middle of the night,' and that whole incident--I mean, it was just
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terrifying for me.
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POVICH: You told all these to Dr. Mack, right?
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Ms. VICTORIA: Yeah.
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POVICH: What did you think about them in the beginning, Doctor?
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Dr. JOHN MACK (MD, Harvard Psychiatrist, Believes Alien Abduction Happens):
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Well, I had worked with many people before I met Jone and was very familiar
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with these accounts. And one of the things--points I want to make really clear
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is that the people themselves are highly skeptical of their own experiences.
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They--the last thing they want to know or hear is that the've had some
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encounter that is mysterious with some sort of intelligence that--before which
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the're helpless. And they, like myself, are highly skeptical about what this
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is. But it's only when you hear these complex, detailed accounts from person
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after person after person, people who are not in touch with each other,
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reporting details that are not in the media, troubled by their experiences,
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wanting to find any other explanation...
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POVICH: Right.
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Dr. MACK: ...after a while you begin to realize that there's a pattern here
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that as a psychiatrist I can't explain.
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POVICH: OK. When we come back, Sharon shares with us the terror she feels when
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she's had an encounter with an alien.
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(Announcements)
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POVICH: OK. We're back, and we want to hear Sharon's experiences.
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Maybe-by the way, you work as what , Sharon?
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Ms. SHARON KING (Says She Has Been Abducted By Aliens Throughout Her Life):
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I'm a counselor. I work with recovering adult children from alcoholic and
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dysfunctional families and sexual abuse survivors.
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POVICH: Good work.
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Ms. KING: Yes, it is.
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POVICH: Tell me about your experiences. Ongoing?
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Ms. KING: Ongoing since the age of perhaps five. Quite honestly, if someone
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had said to me five years ago that I would be here today and I would be
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dealing with this phenomenon, I would have said that they were crazy.
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POVICH: When did you realize finally that you had had these encounters?
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Ms. KING: Three years ago.
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POVICH: How many?
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Ms. KING: Three years ago. The memories started coming to me, not through
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hypnosis, but through a therapeutic technique where it's very meditative and
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you breathe into your experience. And then one day as I was going through a
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process, the visions started to come to me. And when I was in where I was--the
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three alien beigns coming toward me.
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POVICH: what did they look like?
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Ms. KING: They were very much like what Jone was describing. They were about
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three feet tall, a grayish hue to them with fairly large heads and very big
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penetrating eyes.
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POVICH: Let me interrrupt here. Gray is an experience--is a name, as I
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understand it, the many...
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Ms. KING: Right.
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POVICH: ...not only of your patients, Doctor, but many why have had this
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experience use. Gray. Gray--is that the color? Is that the felling you get or
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what?
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Ms. KING: For me, it's the color. I also see some bluish ones where they are
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gray, but they also have a bluish tint and they are a little bit taller.
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POVICH: We have an audio tape.
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Ms. KING: Right.
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POVICH: You are under hypnosis at this point?
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Ms. KING: Right.
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POVICH: Let's listen to this audio tape.
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Unidentified Woman #1: (From audio tape) Who is touching you?
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Ms. KING: ...(unintelligible)
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Woman #1: Have they experimented?
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Ms. KING: I don't know what they've done. I think they've taken more ovum. I'm
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not sure. It hurts. The pain.
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POVICH: They've--and you're saying they've taken more what?
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Ms. KING: More ovum. Part of my memory involves memories of them having taken
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ovum from me. Also...
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POVICH: Ovum--get--what is it? I don't know. Refreshy my...
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Dr. Mack: Eggs.
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POVICH: Eggs--eggs from the ovary.
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POVICH: Oh, eggs. Ok. If you would have said eggs, I would have known. Ovum.
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My mom didn't teach me that word.
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Ms. KING: And I also have memory of having a fetus taken from me, and that was
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part them, part us--is what I refer to it as.
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POVICH: Didn't you have a memory also of a son being abducted?
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Ms. KING: Yes. That was probably one of the most painful things that I did
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remember. Again, that was not under hypnosis that I got the memory. And I know
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that my son and I have been taken together on several different times. I'm not
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really sure. My son is now 18. He has no memory of that.
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POVICH: Same beings?
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Ms. KING: Same beings.
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POVICH: Why would she have a memory, her son doesn't?
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Dr. Mack: Well, memory is a very complex process. I mean, one of the reasons
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people don't remember--it's protective not to remember those kind of
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terrifying experiences. You can't go around carrying that kind of terror with
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you on a day-to-day basis. A child, for example, that's been through the
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terror of bing taken up on to a ship or whatever this is--it would afflict
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that child's whole childhood if they were--if they were not protected in some
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way from recalling the experience.
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POVICH: When we come back, Dianne will join us and we'll hear her experiences.
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Dianne believes she's had sex with an alien.
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(Announcements)
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POVICH: We're taling with people who say they have had encounters with aliens,
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they've been abducted at times. My guests today are very convincing.
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Dianne is an executive in the computer industry. She's had visitations for the
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past five years. How often?
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DIANNE (Says She Has Yearly Encounters With Alien Beings): They were once a
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year until last fall. Now they are every couple of weeks.
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POVICH: Now let's get to my teasing out of the last segment and getting us to
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here. You've had sex with them?
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DIANNE: Let's get it over with.
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POVICH: Yeah. Let's talk about it.
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DIANNE: It's true. It was terrorizing experience that I had last December. It
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was my fifth yearly experience, the secound which I had the courgage to turn
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around and take a look at what was going on. The--it was waking up in the
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middle of an experience that was already occurring, and it was in my room in
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my home in Massachusetts. And there were some movements of an arm over my
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chest really fast. And I had had, you know, many years of experiences, and the
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year before, I had seen something else. So I kept quiet.
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POVICH: Were you able to see a shape?
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DIANNE: I just saw an arm, and I kept quiet, making like I wan't going to open
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my eyes totally, because I felt that if I opened my eyes and they found out I
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was awake, they would black me out, which they do. And I wanted to see what
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was going on. And I sure did. A face came right on to mine within inches of a
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small, dark gray being, and we stared at each other for three seconds.
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POVICH: A dark gray being?
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DIANNE: Yes. I very clearly saw the face.
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POVICH: Eyes?
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DIANNE: Yes.
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POVICH: Two eyes?
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DIANNE: It had almond-shaped eyes that were not from here to here. They were
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not as slanted as other ones I've drawn. They were slightly slanted,
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oversized. There was two holes where the nose would be and a little bone that
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stuck out and a mouth that seemed in a grim, 'I do not like you,' position. I
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felt tlike I --like that face didn't care whether I lived or died. It was
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very, very frightening. It then came away, realizing I was awake, got out of
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my sight to the right. I realized there was a second one of the same size and
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color there, but I couldn't move my head. They started screeching. I think it
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had upset them that I was conscious.
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POVICH: An audible screech?
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DIANNE: Screeching.
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POVICH: Words...
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DIANNE: Like mice. It sounded like mice. It was--it was like animals. It was--
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just added to the terror of the experience. So I'm not--I'm not with humans.
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This thing was really ugly. I have never seen anything like this before. It's
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not human. Now all of a sudden, through the doorway of my room, comes a white
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being that was slightly taller. It comes in and crawls to the foot of my bed,
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crouches down and looks at me, right down the top of me. And all that went
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through my mind was to take in the face as much as I could, and what the heck
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is this thing going to do to me? I thought--I knew I was going to get
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attacked. I have never been in the presence of anyone--any man who has meant
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me harm, and for that split second, I fell that I may have experienced the
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real terror of going to get abused. And he tilted his head. When he saw my--
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you know, the horror on my face--tilted his head, crawled up the bed and
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touched his face to my cheek. And as soon as he did that, I wasn't afraid
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anymore. I am not saying I didn't--I'm not saying I wanted those things in my
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room, but it was like I was immediately in lala-land. And not liking it, but
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just being totally like drugged out and--and like going along. And it was--the
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rest of the experience was a length one, which I really don't wasnt to
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discuss.
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POVICH: It was sexual?
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DIANNE: It was definitely sexual. It was almost like what kept happening was,
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he was--he was playing little reels of past experiences I had had with my ex-
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husband, a sexual encounter with my husband--like playing it back. And then
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I'd said, 'No,no.' I know that what I just saw, some people in my room So I'd
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snap out of it and see this thing--he was laying on me. And he kept trying to
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get me to like relive another sexual encounter. So I can't be sure if he was
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having sex with me. All I know was that he was definitely lying on top of me,
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and he felt featherlight, which was even more creepy. He couldn't have weighed
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30 pounds.
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POVICH: Questions? Yes.
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Unidentified Woman #2: For the woman in the blue, is it difficult to be
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intimate with you boyfriend after this experience?
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Ms. VICTORIA: Sure. Yeah.
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POVICH: Well, let's move...
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Ms VICTORIA: It's not something--I mean, it's not something I really--I really
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discuss because...
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|
|
POVICH: Let's move to Dianne, because your experiences did have an effect on--
|
|
on your life, didn't they?
|
|
|
|
DIANNE: My life is--someone just did this. I mean, my parents told me...
|
|
|
|
POVICH: Your marrigage broke up?
|
|
|
|
DIANNE: My marriage is over.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: And now you have, as I understand it, a fiance who is supportive--
|
|
doesn't believe it, but is supportive?
|
|
|
|
DIANNE: Yes. He's wonderful. He doesn't believe it. He doesn't really--he
|
|
doesn't like it when I come down the stairs the next mornign--you know, he
|
|
comes out of the shower...
|
|
|
|
POVICH: What's he going to think if you come on national television and talk
|
|
about it?
|
|
|
|
DIANNE: He--he's one of those incrediable people that --I think he's an angel
|
|
because I don't think that there's anyone out htere who doesn't believe that
|
|
would be as supportive. But he--he thinks I may have repercussions. He is more
|
|
concerned over--I'm going to get ridiculed like crazy fro doing this, but why
|
|
I'm talking about it? I'm not holding this in. Some nasty stuff is going on,
|
|
and I'm not going to keep quiet about it. And I'm hoping that I don't lose
|
|
friends or job over this. I don't think I will, because I've done some things-
|
|
-so far so good, but I don't know about now.
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: One of the points I want to emphasize, each of these women--and I
|
|
admire enormously their courage for being willing to go--speak publicly about
|
|
this, because I think that the American people and people around the world
|
|
need to realize that something--even though we don't understand it, that we--
|
|
somehting that we can't explain is going on here that needs to be looked at
|
|
realistically and not sort of ridiculed or try to reduce to some conventional
|
|
explanation.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: When we come back, a woman who has proof of an alien encounter. She
|
|
caught it on videotape, she claims.
|
|
|
|
Ms. DEBBIE JORDAN (Says An Alien Encounter Changed Her Life): (From videotape)
|
|
What's that--what's that light? What is that in the road? What is that?
|
|
|
|
Unidentified Man #1: I don't know.
|
|
|
|
(Announcements)
|
|
|
|
POVICH: These days more and more people are coming forward admitting that
|
|
they've had encounters with aliens. Debbie Jordan is one of these people.
|
|
She's written a book about her experiences called "Abducted," although she
|
|
admits that she is sometimes a little skeptical herself. Also joining us is
|
|
Dr. William Cone. He is a clinical psychologist. Hes says that there is a
|
|
rational explanaiton for everything that we've heard so far. Your last
|
|
experience was--was when, Debbie?
|
|
|
|
Ms. DEBBIE JORDAN: September of '93.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: OK. What happened?
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: Well, we were watching TV one night, my late husband and a couple
|
|
house guests, and I saw a light outside the front of the house. We live on a
|
|
farm. And we all went running out to see what it was. At first I thought it
|
|
had to be a helicopter that had a spotlight on that was just coming towards me
|
|
and made it look brighter. But I kept watching it, and it was doing funny
|
|
things, so I hollered for everybody. We all went outside. My husband went back
|
|
in and tot the video camera, and the videotape--you know, it's not too
|
|
terribly impressive, I didn't think. But at least it was there. We saw it. And
|
|
at some points it looked like my husband got it brighter by using the zoom on
|
|
the camera, but he wasn't.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: OK. Let's take a look at it and we'll see what happened on the tape.
|
|
In other words, as it gets brighter, he didn't do anything to the camera?
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: No.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: OK.
|
|
|
|
(The following is from Jordan's videotape)
|
|
|
|
Unidentified Girl: Mama, what's that?
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: What's that--what's that light in the d--what's that in the road?
|
|
What is that?
|
|
|
|
Man #1: I don't know.
|
|
|
|
Girl: Is that a doggy?
|
|
|
|
Man#1: Got a--got something in the road here standing in the raod. Do you
|
|
think that's real?
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: It's something.
|
|
|
|
Unidentified Woman #3: Ther ain't no damn way--this is weird. There is an
|
|
airplane above it. See the airplane above it just...
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: Yes.
|
|
|
|
Woman #3: ...a little bit to the west of it?
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: Yes.
|
|
|
|
Woman #3: Look at it.
|
|
|
|
(End of excerpt from videotape)
|
|
|
|
POVICH: We don't see much there.
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: You don't--it--the--the tape is quite long. In the beginning there
|
|
is more where it gets really bright. But at one point we saw something coming
|
|
down the road toward us walking on the road out in the country.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: Do you remember what that looked like?
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: It was about a head taller than the fence post, however tall that
|
|
is. The head was shaped like a lightbulb, and it was real thin. And I though--
|
|
I told myself, 'That's got to be an animal. That's a deer or something.'
|
|
|
|
POVICH: You don't want to believe these things?
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: Well, I got to live here. I got--you know, I got kids to raise. I
|
|
got responsibilities. It doesn't fit in with what I know is our kind of
|
|
reality.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: And yet you've had experiences?
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: I've had a bunch, and I've always tried to...
|
|
|
|
POVICH: Not just seeing them?
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: No. I've always tried to rationalize everything away. You know,
|
|
after this happened, I had a hysterectomy. I had a hysterectomy six days after
|
|
this happened. Before this happened, I had an ultrasound and tow other doctors
|
|
examined me, and they said I had a tumor. After the hysterectomy was
|
|
performed, I had all kinds of horrible things wrong with me. They couldn't
|
|
save anything. The doctor's exact words were, my female organs were trashed.
|
|
But the tumor wasn't there.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: And you can't explain it?
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: I can't explain it. I know what it seems like, and I don't want to
|
|
believe that.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: What you want to believe is that these beings had an effect on that?
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: I want to--I don't want to believe that, but it seems that way to
|
|
me, you know.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: All right, Dr. Cone. Here you are.
|
|
|
|
Dr. WILLIAM CONE (Ph.D., Believes Abductees Are Mistaken About Their
|
|
Experiences): OK.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: Convincing? To some people. To many people, these stories are very
|
|
convincing.
|
|
|
|
Dr. CONE: Absolutely. Well, let me say a couple things aobut what's going on
|
|
right now in this country and something that I think is really dangerous.
|
|
Right now we have thousands of people who are coming to therapy, going to a
|
|
therapist who does regressive hypnosis and recovering memories, either satanic
|
|
ritual abuse memories, alien abduction memories or memories of multiple
|
|
personality. The people come with the same kind of symptoms, the same kind of
|
|
stories, sexual problems, sexual dysfunctions, sleep disorders, creatures that
|
|
come in the night. If you got to a satanic ritual abuse therapist and get
|
|
regressed hypnotically, what you're going to get is satanic ritual abuse
|
|
memories. If you go to an alien abduction therapist, you're going to get alien
|
|
abduction memories. What comes out is highly function of the belief system of
|
|
the doctor that's working on the patient. I think this is dangerous.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: So is it the doc--is it the doctor that's doing this to you or is it
|
|
you who is seeking comfort with the doctor?
|
|
|
|
Dr. CONE: It's not--it's not really the doctor that's doing it to you. And by
|
|
the way, I'm not saying this is true in all cases.
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: It's not true in my case at all.
|
|
|
|
Dr. CONE: And I don't want to dispute that, but...
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: I can't speak for all doctors. I know that this was the furthest
|
|
thing from my belief system when I--this--it was the power of the data that
|
|
changed the way I looked at this, not any belief system I had.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: And the data to you are the stories. I mean, because your friend--for
|
|
instance, Carl Sagan in--The New York--New York Times Magazine did a story on
|
|
Dr. Mack, and it quoted Carl Sagan, who we know is the famous astronomer, and
|
|
Carl Sagan, who's a friend of his, says the problem is all this information
|
|
is, quote, 'anecdotal.' It's stories. Ther is no solid...
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: Yeah. You've got to watch the buzz words here in the resistance to
|
|
this phenomenon. Anecdotal is translated as human experience.
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: But what about physical evidence?
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: But we have--there is physical evidence.
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: I have...
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: We don't have anything but human experience to go on. If we're going
|
|
to call that anecdotal, we're nothing but anecdotes. Thats all we are.
|
|
|
|
Ms. KING: If I can't trust my human experience, what can I trust?
|
|
|
|
Dr. CONE: Well, the difficulty with that is a lot of us can't trust our human
|
|
experiences. And I'm--I'm not saying all these people are msitaken. And, by
|
|
the way, I didn't have any investment, any belief system, when I started
|
|
working with this. I think one of the things that I have been able to
|
|
experience is--being a clinical psychologist, I've worked with satanic abuse
|
|
people and alien abductees, and I find a great deal of parallel in the
|
|
populations. They're very similar. The work is very similar. The way the
|
|
memories are recovered is very simailar. And--and I can't help but think that
|
|
at least in part a lot of these people are coming--are being led to believe
|
|
this is happening to them when, in fact, it isn't.
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: Nobody leads me to believe what happened to me.
|
|
|
|
Ms. VICTORIA: And I resent this inference of satanic ritual with our
|
|
experience. You know, with all due respect, Doctor, you've never seen me,
|
|
we've never spoken, you know nothing of me, you know nothing of these people.
|
|
|
|
Dr. CONE: Absolutely not. And I'm not disputing your experience.
|
|
|
|
Ms. VICTORIA: For you to bring up something so--I mean, absolutely
|
|
diametrically opposingly different thing with UFO experiences and satanic
|
|
rituals...
|
|
|
|
Dr. CONE: The only thing that's different is the memories that come out from
|
|
your unconscious.
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: Also, let me make a point here. Dr. Cone is trying to find a
|
|
psychological explanation here. And even if the psychological explanation had
|
|
some plausibility, you have to keep in mind that this phenomenon occurs in
|
|
children as young as two and three years old who have not had the opportunity
|
|
to develop these psychological structures. It also is related to physical
|
|
findings on people's bodies--cuts, scoop marks, lesions, which are highly
|
|
detailed.
|
|
|
|
Dr. CONE: Which is also ...(unintelligible) to satanic abuse victims.
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: Well-- but then you're--that doesn't make it not true if it's
|
|
similar to somehting else. And also the tight association with UFOs, which are
|
|
observed independently by neighbors, and, in one case of my own, a woman had
|
|
the experience, did notsee the UFO, and then there was--followed in the media
|
|
by all the televison channels a UFO that was following the same course of
|
|
where she had been. And that occurs in case after case after case where you
|
|
have the community, the television media, spotting, following tracking a UFO.
|
|
The person themselves doesn't know about the UFO being seen, and they're
|
|
having the experience. A psychological explanaiton simply won't hold up when
|
|
you have this independent kind of witnessing.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: Recently another word has come into our life. It is called Roswell.
|
|
What happened in Roswell, New Mexico--how many years ago--in 1947? Was that
|
|
real? We have the man who wrote the book about it, after this.
|
|
|
|
(Announcements)
|
|
|
|
POVICH: Yeah.
|
|
|
|
Unidentified Woman#4: I have a question for the psychiatrist. I would like to
|
|
know why do they keep visiting the same people over and over? A second
|
|
question is, are there male and female aliens?
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: What they do is establish a relationship with somebody, and this
|
|
goes on from--sometimes people have memories from their earliest childhood
|
|
throughout their entire lives. Some kind of connection, some kind of
|
|
relationship between this energy, these beings, this species, whatever this
|
|
is. We don't have words for it. But it goes on throughout the person's life,
|
|
and what they tell us and what the beings communicate, and it's--all the
|
|
communication is telepathic. It's not in English or French or German.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: Let's clear that up.
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: Yeah.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: You don't hear English being spoken to you, do you?
|
|
|
|
Ms. KING: What do you mean? Verbally?
|
|
|
|
POVICH: Yeah.
|
|
|
|
Ms. KING: I hear what they're saying, and the only way, of course, I can hear
|
|
it is in English.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: Oh, I see.
|
|
|
|
Ms. KING: So I do hear, but it's all telepathic. You don't...
|
|
|
|
POVICH: So they communicate with you and then you kind of filter it through
|
|
and it comes out in English?
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: It's mind direct. Mind to mind. What they say is...
|
|
|
|
POVICH: Male and female?
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: And the --the people--it's very interesting.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: That's a yes?
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: The experiencers know male and female, but not in the conventional
|
|
way, becasue they have, you know, long hair or short hair or--you know, the
|
|
know because they sense that a being is female or male.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: OK. Now what role does the government play when it comes to alien
|
|
encounters? This is why Kevin Randall is here, a special investigator with the
|
|
Center for UFO Studies. He's just written a book called "The Truth About the
|
|
UFO Crash at Roswell." It was an entire show in itself, by the way, your
|
|
investigation--not only a book but on Showtime. And I watched it and
|
|
fascinated by it. But this goes to something else, because Roswell was a
|
|
nuclear facility, correct?
|
|
|
|
Mr. KEVIN RANDALL (Investigated UFO Crash in Roswell, New Mexico): It was the
|
|
only atomic strike force in the world at the time. When this event took place,
|
|
the 518 bomb group was the only atomic strike force in the world.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: And there was a crash of a UFO?
|
|
|
|
Mr. RANDALL: A crash of an alien spacecraft.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: In 1947?
|
|
|
|
Mr. RANDALL: We have no idea. All we know is there's an alien spacecraft, they
|
|
crashed, the bodies were recovered by the government and the whole thing was
|
|
covered up. We can prove there was a crash at Roswell by the preponderance of
|
|
the evidence. We can prove there was a cover-up.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: And by the way, you believe, A, the remains of that craft are still
|
|
being hidden by the government?
|
|
|
|
Mr. RANDALL: Absolutely.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: And the remains of the beings?
|
|
|
|
Mr. RANDALL: Absolutely. You don't destroy a unique biological sample.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: And that they were taken, placed somewhere, and to this day could be
|
|
retrieved?
|
|
|
|
Mr. RANDALL: They were taken from the crash site in Roswell, transferred to
|
|
the base at Roswell. One airplane went to Andrews Army Air Field, later
|
|
Andrews Air Force Base, so that the top level of the government could see it.
|
|
Eventually it all ended up at Wright Paterson Air Force Base.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: And what is the officail explanation of the government?
|
|
|
|
Mr. RANDALL: The offical explanation, it was a weather balloon, although now
|
|
there's a new...
|
|
|
|
POVICH: A weather balloon?
|
|
|
|
Mr. RANDALL: A weather balloon, a raw-wind target balloon if you want to be
|
|
precise, although there's a new explanation coming out. It was really a top-
|
|
secret project mogul balloon. All they've done is reinvent the balloon.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: We'll be back right after this.
|
|
|
|
(Announcements)
|
|
|
|
Unidentified Woman#5: I wanted--I wanted to know from Sharon, you said
|
|
something about a fetus being taken from you? Were you in--I don't want to say
|
|
in real life, to separate the two, but from your knowledge were you pregnant
|
|
or had you taken a pregnancy test and then you maybe had a miscarriage or
|
|
something of that sort?
|
|
|
|
Ms. KING: That's really great. I'm glad you asked the question because I had
|
|
had a miscarriage previous to that. So I knew what a real miscarriage was
|
|
like. And I was probably about two and a half months pregnant when my husband
|
|
and I went to a farm in New Hampshire. And what happened was night--one night
|
|
was that the room became filled withlight. And then I was taken out, and what
|
|
I remember is the fetus being taken from me. And I have always said whenever I
|
|
went to a doctor, you know, they say, 'How many times pregnant?' I've always
|
|
said I lost tow babies.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: And when you wentto the doctor after this experience, what did they
|
|
say?
|
|
|
|
Ms. KING: I was just bleeding very heavily. My period didn't come at its
|
|
normal time or anything like that.
|
|
|
|
Unidentified Man #2: We have been hearing all bad things. Have there ever been
|
|
any dood or pleasant experiences?
|
|
|
|
Ms. KING: Absolutely. Absolutely.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: There have been?
|
|
|
|
Ms. KING: Yeah. I've had some very wonderful--as John was talking about, the
|
|
relationship you can develop through some of the memory. I know I have a
|
|
special relationship with one who I all Blue, who's taught me a great deal
|
|
about fear, aobut energy and about the situation that they are in, the
|
|
situation that we are in, and why they, in fact, are trying to combine the two
|
|
races. We have things they don't have, and they have things that we don't
|
|
have.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: Let's talk about this Kevin, Dr. Mack. They are not of this world,
|
|
obviously, these beings. Are they of this solar system? Probably not.
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: I mean, that's the sort of the biggest question, is what is the
|
|
source of this experience? We don't know.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: And as we go farther out in our solar system and we see that
|
|
they're...
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: We don't know. We dont know. They don't operate according to the
|
|
physical laws as--as we have know them. They enter into our space-time
|
|
universe in ways that we don't understand. We don't--Jack Lalay has decided
|
|
they come from some other dimension. The experiencers will say, 'You don't
|
|
understand this, Doctor, but I am--this is not happening in our space-time
|
|
universe,' when they are describing what's going on.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: You believe they are from this galaxy?
|
|
|
|
Mr. RANDALL: They're from this galaxy outside this solar system. Clearly there
|
|
is no place in this solar system where they could have developed.
|
|
|
|
POVICH: Yeah.
|
|
|
|
Unidentified Man #3: When I was younger, I had a fever of 103. My brother
|
|
appeared to be a frog. And I really thought, you know, he moved like a frog.
|
|
He didn't speak to me, but now...
|
|
|
|
POVICH: In your delirium that's what you thought?
|
|
|
|
Man #3: Delirium. Now I think that--that waht all you witnesses are--are
|
|
seeing and felling and talking to is just a void in your own lives.
|
|
|
|
DIANNE: One isolated--one isolated case...
|
|
|
|
Ms. JORDAN: What about he marks in my yard? How did a void cause a mark in my
|
|
yard that lasted five years and kill my dog and make me sick?
|
|
|
|
DIANNE: One isolated case. I agree. I have had over the last eight months
|
|
experiences that do not get separated by more than two weeks, and even myself-
|
|
-even after the December incident last year, I still--I broke down crying
|
|
about it at a support group, and I went back to the work the next day and I
|
|
said--I didn't want to push that out of my mind. But they came after me and
|
|
they continued to come to my house to the point where I am so saturated with
|
|
visitations that I have no choice anymore. It's not an isolated case. It's
|
|
eight months.
|
|
|
|
Dr. MACK: See, this young man is illustrating what we try to do. We try to
|
|
find a conventional explanation for a mystery. It doesn't make any sense. I
|
|
mean, sure, there is such a thing as what he's describing, which is a delirium
|
|
when you have a high fever and you see things and you hallucinate. This is
|
|
nothing like that. These people are in a--they're not in a fever state. They
|
|
are of sound mind. They are not in some kind of altered mindset. They are not
|
|
on drugs. This happens to sound, healthy people under ordinary circumstances
|
|
of life. It is an authentic mystery.
|
|
|
|
I think one of the reasons we're so terrified of this thing and why we resist
|
|
it so much is it shows we are not in control, we are not the snartest guys in
|
|
the cosmos. We are helpless, and we need to surrender to something we don't
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understand that can enter our world in ways that we can't explain. And I think
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we can grow a lot if we could at least take it in and accept that there is a
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mystery here.
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DIANNE: Don't you wnat to know--the reason I'm on here today, don't--wouldn't
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you want to know that some funny stuff is going on? I have nothing to gain.
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POVICH: Yeah. I think the most you can expect is that, 'Wait a second. Maybe
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this--maybe we do move in mysterious ways. Maybe there is a mystery out here
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that is unexplained.
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Dr. CONE: The difficulty is there is not that much funny stuff going on, and a
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good proportion of the people that think they've had this experience, haven't
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had the experience.
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DIANNE: Baloney. There's plenty of funny stuff going on. Have you had
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experience...
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POVICH: We'll be back righ after this.
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(Announcements)
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POVICH: Those are the sketches that Sal Amandel--Amandella has been doing
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throughout the show of the experiences that our guests have been taling aobut.
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As we leave, show of hands of all those people who the door never opened for
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you. You're still--you're still as much of a disbeliever, doesn't happen, as
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|
you were when you first came in?
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|
OK. Those hands of those who maybe the door opened a crack--not that you're a
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|
believer, but now you're open to the possibility. Hands.
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OK. Well, you have a majority and a rather attractive minority when it comes
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to people who believe and not believe or the possibility thereof.
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I want to thank all of our guests. Kevin, thank you so much. Appreciate your
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|
coming. Dr. Cone, Debbie, thanks. You're not going to change your mind, right?
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Ms. JORDAN: No.
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POVICH: You saw what you saw, experienced what you experienced.
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Ms. JORDAN: That's right. My dog is dead, I've been changed forever.
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POVICH: Dianne, I thank you very much. And Sharon and Jone, thank you very
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|
much. And especially Dr. Mack for bringing not only some of our guests, but
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your experience and your expertise. I thank you very much. Appreciate it.
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Dr. MACK: Thank you.
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POVICH: Thank you out there, everyone. Until next time, America.
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**********************************************
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* THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo *
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