1565 lines
79 KiB
Plaintext
1565 lines
79 KiB
Plaintext
SUBJECT: THE MICKUS/FENWICK INTERVIEW FILE: UFO2049
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PART 2
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On November 6th/88, Lawrence (Larry) Fenwick, noted Canadian
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UFOlogist was interviewed for ParaNet on Sunday afternoon at
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the Toronto residence of ParaNet Pi Sysop, Tom Mickus. He had
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previously agreed to this interview, with the full knowledge
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that it was being taped, and that the transcript would be
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released for distribution on the North American ParaNet System.
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He spoke for approximately 4 hours, of which approximately
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170 minutes were taped. During that time Larry spoke frankly
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and in some depth on a number of issues and events current
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to UFOlogy. The interview was done at my request, and Larry
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graciously assented to agree to the exchange, without any
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strings attached. Additionally, no money was exchanged.
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Although an interview, much the dialogue is in conversational
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style, appropriate for the informal setting which we were in.
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Regarding the content you are about to read, Larry neither
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makes the claim that this is original information, or
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that he knows all of it. But as you will see, he does have
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some pieces of the puzzle, in my estimation. Before the
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interview, I gave him every right to protect his sources,
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as well as have certain portions of the interview "off
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the record". While he has withheld some names, none of
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the substance of what we discussed was held back. Its
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all here for you to examine and evaluate.
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As I've mentioned, approximately 170 mins of our exchange
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was suppposed to have been on tape. However, after the
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interview, and to my extreme chagrin, I soon realized that
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the first 45 mins of the tape was almost blank, and the A-B,
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C-D order of the 4 sides seems to be haphazard. I am puzzled
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as to what happened, but at this point blame the recording
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device for screwing up...and of course also blame myself for
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not ensuring the integrity of the recording device, although
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the process was monitored throughout...and I am genuinely
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perplexed as to how this had happened. What I have therefore
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done, is to paraphrase the dialogue as much as possible, in
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order to bring out the 'highlights' of what we discussed in
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the first 45 mins. About one third of that had contained an
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in-depth bio of interviewee Larry Fenwick. Perhaps on a
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subsequent occasion, Larry can recount some of the
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information which we covered, a good portion which included
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commentary on the two recent TV productions, namely that of
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"UNSOLVED MYSTERIES - the Gulf Breeze segment", and of
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course "UFO-Coverup LIVE". For the time being, to the best
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of my recollection, some of what Larry brought up will be
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included in an appendix at the end of the formal transcript.
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One last note...this entire effort on my own part has
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consumed almost exclusively 4 days of my life. The transcibing
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process took close to 40 Hours, using simple tape recorders.
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Every effort has been made to insure the integrity of the
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dialogue of the part of Larry Fenwick. I can confidently say
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that I have reproduced accurately 99% of what Larry Fenwick
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said in the 125 mins of taped dialogue which was intact.
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The 40 Hours of time I think reflects this. My own dialogue,
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sparse as it is, is about 90% accurate. In some areas I have
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clarified my questions.
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Throughout, you will notice the use of square brackets [ ],
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these are added in by myself in areas that required some
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clarification...especially when certain mannerisms, inflection
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of speech, pause in speech etc., didn't "translate" into
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the written word sufficiently. Whereever you find words
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capitalized, that will indicate a word strongly emphasized,
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and indeed I have added this clarification in most of the
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instances.
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Lastly, although you may find some hints as to my interests
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and positions on various aspects of the UFO issue, I have
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not as yet come out in favour of, or against, most of what
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Larry Fenwick has said. For me, in part, the jury is still
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out. Having said that, I cannot help feel that much of what
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Larry Fenwick has enuciated here is quite significant. There
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should be enough information here for sleuthing armchair
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UFOlogists to get involved in, and to track down. The information
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conspiracy must end...the people must know. If what Larry and
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others say is true, even a part of it...then we don't have
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much time. In closing, I encourage you to spread the transcript
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of this file onto other Bulletin Board Systems. If it acts as
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a catalyst for action...pro or con...then it will have served
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its purpose.
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-Tom Mickus 11/10/88
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[PART TWO...]
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<Mickus> "Obviously, what you've described about the Aliens
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involvement in Religion and before Genesis...is all
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pretty muddy."
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<Fenwick> "It is, yes. Now as I say, from my point of view, from
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what I know, its muddy. But obviously there is a lot more
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information. Now maybe the majority of the rest of the
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information about Project Aquarius has to do solely with
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religion. It just may be."
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<Mickus> "You mean, what the future make-up might be...how the
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political and social structures might be? Because if its
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just a nuclear annihiliation..., there's gotta be
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something more there..."
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<Fenwick> "Well, there's another thing too. Several abductees have
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reported, and we have investigated several cases...very
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plausible cases, where they've been shown the future of
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the planet...on board a UFO, by some sort of screen where
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they show films of the future on this planet. And you see
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devastation...everyone dying, and so on...from geological
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problems [ie. earthquakes, flooding, etc.]. I heard this
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from several abductees, credible people. The two ladies
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who were on the 'Man Alive' show [Note. That show's
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transcript, also done by ParaNet Pi, can be found in the
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File Library under ETHYPE.TXT], Dorothy and Betty...and
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Betty's one of our members by the way. So I questioned
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that, I said, 'You mean all the volcanoes on the earth,
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and all of them are going to erupt simultaneously, and
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all the earthquake faults...minor and major...are going
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to give way at the same time, and the North Pole...all
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the ice will melt very quickly, and all the coastlines
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will be flooded, and so on...' They said they saw all
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kinds of devastation...millions of people dying, they
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saw this. So I said to myself, 'Well...that's a
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possibility, its a possibility.' And I called Larry
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Fawcett, he's a police officer...Lawrence Fawcett. He's
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one of the two writer's of the book 'Clear Intent'. I
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called Larry...and I've talked to him before..., and
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I posed that question to him. I said, 'From whatever
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contacts you have with military intelligence, or whatever,
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could you tell me whether there will be any future events
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that will destroy most of the human race, having to do
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with geological problems." He said, 'No.' I said, 'What
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kind of source do you have?' He said, 'My source is a
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2-Star General who is in Project Aquarius.' He denied
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that anything 'geological' was going to happen. 'Its
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not going to be that at all'. I did not go any further
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and say, 'Well, is it going to be military, is it going
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to be sociological, is it going to be this or that.' I
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could have, but I didn't. I eliminated that possiblity
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as far as his... This is what he said, its second-hand
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information...or third-hand if it came from the aliens..."
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"There's another possibility too, that if you've read
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Thomas Bullard's [sp?] Ph.D thesis on abductions which
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is 600 pages long...dealing with 300 abductions. Most
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of the information given by the aliens to abductee's is
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LIES. So if they show these two abductee's [Dorothy and
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Betty] the future, its a lie. Why they lie, has not
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been gone into by Thomas Bullard. Why do they lie to
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us? Why do they lie to the abductees, about a lot of
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things? More than 80%...somewhere between 80% and 90%
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of the information are lies. WHY? That, we don't know.
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No one has speculated on that. You have to put yourself
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in their place. Suppose you had an IQ of 200, and you
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were 400 yrs. old, and you came from another planet to
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a planet where you were experimenting with people; why
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would you lie to them about their future. This is
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something that is a profound question...that no one has
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gone into in the UFO field...as far as I know. You
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have to put yourself in their place, and you can't do it.
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I mean, I got a 155 IQ, but its not 200! So I don't
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know, speculation is all you can do."
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"If what we've heard is true, and the events take place,
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then it will be too late to do anything about it anyway.
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If it doesn't happen, then we know that what Bullard's
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study has shown, is true...that it's lies, its all
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baloney. That what has been told by the aliens to MJ-12,
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and in particular to Project Aquarius...is lies. That
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is the most profound question. Probably the most profound
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question in the history of the human race. Because if it
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isn't lies...about WW III...then we've had it. We might
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as well live it up while we can too [laughter]. My way
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of living...I live it up, I'll tell ya. There's nothing
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that I won't do...within reason [more laughter]. But I
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stay within the law by the way."
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<Mickus> "What do you see happening in the next 2 years...what
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kind of things are going to surface?"
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<Fenwick> "Well, if you talk about that television show on Oct.14th
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UFO-Coverup LIVE, and you look at the date now...and you
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follow the media; there hasn't been one single bit of
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reaction in the United States, because of the elections
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going on now. They are all concerned with elections. This
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wasn't the time to have that TV show on, everyone is
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concerned with the election. They should have waited until
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after the election. But they figured this; they wanted
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Reagan to open up...Reagan knows whats' going on. They
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figured that he would come up with a statement before the
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election,...he's a lame-duck president. If he makes a
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statement before Monday [Nov.7/88], then that show will
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have done some good. If he doesn't, then that show will
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have been no good at all, 'cause that's what they wanted.
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They wanted that show to be a catalyst, so that Reagan
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would talk publicly to the American public about what's
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going on. They had hoped that."
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<Mickus> "And what is Reagan's connection?"
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<Fenwick> "He's part of the whole process...he's briefed."
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<Mickus> "Is he a member?"
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<Fenwick> "Of Aquarius? Sure."
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<Mickus> "So its basically everyone in the upper hierarchy of
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the government."
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<Fenwick> "We're talking about director of the CIA, director of
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the National Reconnaisance Organization, the National
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Intelligence Agency. The NRA wasn't mentioned there,
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there's also the Continental Army Intelligence Command.
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Those are some of the other agencies that werern't
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mentioned on that television show, but they were
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involved as well. The heads of them, the directors of
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them. Only them; who would have what they call, 'a need
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to know' basis. And on that basis, they are given the
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information...and they are not told what the other people
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know. They are only told what they need to know, for
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their own particular purposes. Their specialties are used
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by Project Aquarius. Reagan is not part of Project
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Aquarius, he is briefed on what they know."
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<Mickus> "So he's not one of the 24?"
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<Fenwick> "He's briefed, that all. And the CIA director is not one
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of them necessarily. We don't know exactly who. It
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changes over the years. People die off obviously, all the
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original MJ-12 people are dead...except for one person."
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<Mickus> "And who is this?"
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<Fenwick> "I don't know his name. I have a photograph of him with
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President Eisenhower...which was sent to me by one of
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our members [CUFORN] in western Canada, who has been in
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touch with a MUFON State Director who knows this man;
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knows where he lives, knows his name. Our Winnipeg
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member refuses to disclose the name to me, Harry and Joe
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[the 3 CUFORN Directors]. He will not give us the name of
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the man. The man is either 78 or 82 [years of age],
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somewhere in that area. He was in charge of
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back to his original feeling that he should release the
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notes. And he mentioned also...the Winnipeg member
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mentioned that...his name is Grant Cameron [sp?] by the
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way in Winnipeg. He said that at the meetings, there
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were two meetings at which he presided, that he knows
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of; at those meetings were pieces of UFOs, dead aliens,
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and about 100 stenographers and secretarys taking notes,
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with the old stenographers and dictating machines and
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so on,...and they're all dead. Except this one man.
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Everyone is gone, every single person who was at those
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meetings is gone...except him. If we can track him down,
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that's the biggest story of all time...to get him to
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talk. One of the MUFON directors of one of the states
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was in touch with him AND his son. Now his son wants
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the father to release the information, but his father
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refuses now."
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<Mickus> "Why isn't he 'silenced'? Why don't they just do away
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with him?"
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<Fenwick> "Because no one knows what's going on, besides the few
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people in the UFO community. This is very confidential."
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<Mickus> "Until now."
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<Fenwick> "Well yes, obviously. Bill Moore and Stanton Friedman,
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particularly Bill Moore...is sort of on the outs with
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everyone else in UFOlogy; because he criticizes and
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debunks everyone except...anyone connected with the
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Roswell Incident, fine, or Gulf Breeze now. He has made
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a lot of enemies...Bill has. And people aren't passing
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information along to him in the UFO field..."
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<Mickus> "Anymore, or not much...?"
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<Fenwick> "No, not very much at all. He will either debunk it, or
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keep it for himself and try and make money out of it.
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Because he's got no other income, other than his little
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lists of books he sells and magazines whatever, and
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pamphlets. So there is a lot of people who just don't
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want to talk to him...about what's going on. Now I
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talked to Stanton; Stanton's okay...but he's sort of
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under Bill's thumb. Whatever Bill says, [Stanton will
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say] 'Oh yah...", which is very unusual for Stanton
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because he's a very independent type of guy. But they
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work as a team, with Shandera. And Linda Howe...and
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John Lear...are quite aware of what's going on, of
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that aspect. They are quite upset by it."
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<Mickus> "What...the secrecy...the cliques?"
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<Fenwick> "Yes the secrecy, and the cliques...exactly. I mean
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there's no room for cliques. I've written several
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editorials...one of which appeared in 'Flying Saucer
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Review' in England...about this situation. About the
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secrecy between UFOlogists. Work as a team as I've
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stated. Why don't we all work as a team...we could
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discover so much more as a team, than bickering
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among UFOlogists."
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<Mickus> "There's so little time..."
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<Fenwick> "Yes. And they have rumours flying around. That's a
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waste of time! John's repeating rumours he's heard
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from Linda Howe...Linda Howe's repeating rumours
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she's heard from John Lear. Then other people hear
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about those rumours...and they get exaggerated even
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more so. And what's the truth? Who knows if there is
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anything to it. We have to get at the essence of what's
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going on. We want to find out all the other information
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about Project Aquarius. That's what we have to centre
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on. I was talking to Allen Spragget [sp?], who is
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probably Canada's foremost authority on ESP,...I took
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a night school course on ESP from him. He's interested
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in the UFO phenomenon, and he got a million dollars
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recently, from a Canadian benefactor to do a TV show,
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a series of shows on ESP and UFOs. Only one show on
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UFOs. He want the opening one [to be on UFOs]. And he
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thought that he would do one on MJ-12, and he told me
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about 3 days before the TV show was on, and I said,
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'You're a little late, in a matter of fact the show
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[UFO Coverup] is going to be about MJ-12.' [and then
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Spragget said], 'Oh...well that's out. What else can
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I do?' And I said, 'How about Project Aquarius. Only
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one show only on Project Aquarius.' He said, 'Fine.
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Where am I going to get the information?' 'Well', I
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said to myself, 'You're not going to get it from
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Bill Moore, but maybe you'll get it from Stanton
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Friedman.' So I gave him Friedman's address and phone
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number, in Fredericton. I haven't called Allen to see
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whether he's spoken to Friedman, and what information
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he's gotten from Friedman, or how many leads he's
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gotten. I doubt very much if Friedman even knows Allen
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Spragget. Allen's published a few books on psychic
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phenomena and so on."
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"If that were to come to pass...that a Canadian show,
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or series...with the opening segment on Project
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Aquarius, [that] would be the most astounding media
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event in history. To get that on the air...all the
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information..., if Stanton would talk openly about
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all the information he knows."
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<Mickus> "What do you think he knows?"
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<Fenwick> "I think he knows it all. But if he would talk about
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it, and he thinks it should be done... If they can
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get MJ-12 on a show, then why can't they get all that
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Project Aquarius stuff? It's not that much more of a
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leap...at least I don't think so, maybe it is...,
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Certainly if you can even mention Project Aquarius, as
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it was mentioned several times on the show [UFO Coverup],
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if you could even have mentioned that, then you've really
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got something. You've got your foot in the door...to
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breaking the whole thing wide open. But the key is 'the
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old man', what I call 'the old man'...whoever he is. If
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he will change his mind again; if Friedman can get to
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him. If he's right, Friedman says, 'I think I know who
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he is.', but he's not certain. Now whether he's gone
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after the wrong guy or the right guy...I don't know.
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I haven't spoken to Stanton in a while, its been about
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2 months since I've spoken with Stanton. If Stanton
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can get the old man to talk...then that can go on
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Spragett's show."
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<Mickus> "When is Spragget's show scheduled for?"
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<Fenwick> "I don't know. He has to get information before he can
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do a show...so he's waiting. He's trying to find out
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more."
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<Mickus> "So you're encouraging Stanton and others to..."
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<Fenwick> "...to be open. And join in a group effort. You've
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got to have that."
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<Mickus> "Do you think a lot of this reticence has to do with
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people wanting credit and..."
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<Fenwick> "...and Ego. Bill Moore has the highest ego that you
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ever want to see in a UFOlogist...there's no question
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about that. There's no room for ego in this deal. We
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need co-operation. I was talking to Allen Hynek...I've
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met him in person several times, the late Allen Hynek...
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and each time I did, he said the same thing I'm telling
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you. Co-operate, CO-OPERATE...as a team. We need a team
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effort. There shouldn't be a MUFON, an A.P.R.O., an a
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NICAP, and all these other organizations. Well, there's
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no longer any NICAP or A.P.R.O., [but still ones like]
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CUFOS. There should be ONE the entire world,...with
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translation facilities and so on. Then you get the heart
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of the matter, then you can find out what's going on."
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<Mickus> "You have a network of people..."
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<Fenwick> "Yes. And that's why the computer end of things is a very
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good idea. Because you do have the burgeoning network of
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people in the computer field. How many people are involved
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now in the computer field in UFOs. Its growing all the
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time. I think that there have to be more people who are
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in it full-time. That's the problem,...computers are a help."
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<Mickus> "Do you think that we have got to have less 'armchair'
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UFOlogists, and more people like yourself who are giving
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money for research and..."
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<Fenwick> "...yes. And speaking...I've spoken at libraries and so on.
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And giving the information to the public...it has to be
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out there. Because, sure a lot of people may be bewildered
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by it, may not believe it, may not understand it...but
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there may be the odd one...all you need is one or two who
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have information..."
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<Mickus> "...you touch a nerve."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "And touch a nerve....and [hope] they'll talk. Someone
|
|
will say, 'I know someone who knows someone...', and
|
|
then you go after that person, and say, 'Oh...what's
|
|
his name, where does he live...give me his phone number
|
|
and his address. Get that...if you can't get that, then
|
|
forget what you've heard because it could be distorted."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Yes, it's amazing how that can work. For instance I have
|
|
someone on my BBS, not involved with UFOlogy at all...but
|
|
yet he has a degree in Physics which he received at the
|
|
University of New Brunswick, where Friedman taught. It
|
|
just so happened that this particular individual was in
|
|
charge of getting good speaker's for special physics
|
|
department lectures, and when a good speaker from the
|
|
states was available and he didn't have enough money to
|
|
get him, he would go to the people who control the purse
|
|
strings and request more funds. Alls he would have to do
|
|
is hint that they were thinking of getting Stanton to
|
|
speak, and shortly thereafter the money would become
|
|
'available'. This of course refers to the stigma which
|
|
other professional people place on anyone involved in
|
|
a subject like UFOs. Your reputation is on the line."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Stanton's expensive. He charges $1000 an hour for
|
|
lectures, plus airfare to wherever he's going, colleges
|
|
and universities. I charge $50."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Does he lecture about nuclear physics?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "No, UFOlogy. He lectures at Universities. He's
|
|
lectured at something like 300 Universities and Colleges
|
|
across North America. But that's a weekend deal. And
|
|
he's worked for the New Brunswick Power Commission, he's
|
|
worked on the irradiation of food, that sort of thing.
|
|
And that's his full-time job. So weekends he'll lecture
|
|
at symposium somewhere or at a library or university or
|
|
something."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "The fact that he is getting such big money, do you
|
|
think that that has some bearing on his willingness to
|
|
release all that he knows?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "No. He has a big family, wife and kids. Stanton has to
|
|
support a lot of research. He does a lot of research, not
|
|
just lecturing. But he's after this Aquarius stuff...
|
|
His phone bill alone is about $2000 a year at least."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "I've spent that much on phone bills in 7 months."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "If you have independent income, its great. What we need
|
|
is a few millionaires in the UFO field."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Or a couple of rich widows..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "There aren't that many, John Lear's one I suppose. John's
|
|
got a lot of money. We need more."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Well, he's got...I think he's got enough that he can
|
|
afford to get around and do a lot of footwork. [Enough]
|
|
to get out of the armchair and do some of this stuff."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "He doesn't have the access to people that Bill Moore has
|
|
though, or Friedman, or Tracy Torme for that matter."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Well, he was just meeting with 4 military people dealing
|
|
with some sort of experimental weapons testing. He's
|
|
got a lot of contacts in the aviation community as well.
|
|
So he's got that going for him, other than just being
|
|
a so called "celebrity's son". He talks a lot about SDI..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "How old is John by the way?"
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "He's about your age, in his 50's. He talks about SDI as
|
|
being a weapon against the EBEs."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Oh yes, of course it is. That's well known among certain
|
|
UFOlogists."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Could you elaborate then?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Okay. Part of the exchange of technology which started in
|
|
1975 was [that] SDI was given to the Americans."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "What...lasers, particle beams?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes, all this sort of thing. There was a little bit
|
|
given mentally...in the 1930's to Bertrand Russel and
|
|
Albert Einstein, about stealth technology. Which
|
|
culminated in the 'Philadephia Experiment'. That was
|
|
stealth technology, but the ship...[had] invisibility
|
|
to radar, not invisibility...invisibility to radar.
|
|
And that was continued. Then [with] the agreement,
|
|
they were given more information in 1975 as to how to
|
|
really set-up the stealth technology, also [with] the
|
|
'Star Wars' system. Supposedly the 'good guys' are
|
|
coming into this planet, and the 'grays' want to repel
|
|
them using the Star Wars technology. Star Wars is not
|
|
Soviet vs. American. It's Gray vs. the Nords or the
|
|
tall ones. That's all it is. Its a cover operation.
|
|
This is one of the things that John Lear was talking
|
|
about, and Linda Howe...and also a fellow down in
|
|
Arizona who has his scientific labs next to Kirtland
|
|
Air Force Base."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "You know the name of the lab?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes, 'thunder'. Dr. Paul Bennewitz who is an electronics
|
|
engineer. He was involved with the Kirtland sightings
|
|
and so on. He's mentioned that 'stolen telex', having
|
|
taken photographs of UFOs and so on...film, he's
|
|
filming them."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "This is the telex that Moore reproduced?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes. He re-typed it. I think you have to realize that
|
|
there is sometimes more than meets the eye. You read
|
|
about the strategic defence intiative and stealth
|
|
technology...this was given to the Americans as part of
|
|
the agreement. And the other part of it,...part of the
|
|
exchange or agreement was that the aliens and the
|
|
American military were to collaborate on the cattle
|
|
mutilations. The mysterious cattle mutilations that
|
|
occurred...there was 100,000 of them known in the
|
|
United States and Canada and other parts of the world,
|
|
including Puerto Rico..."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "...which were to get biological..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "DNA. In order to bring back one in 200 or 300 years,
|
|
once the radiation has died out in this planet, a new
|
|
race...a new 'Adam and Eve'...and cattle. You got to
|
|
have food obviously. So you re-build, you build cattle
|
|
whatever, out of DNA you 'grow' them. And this is the
|
|
way you do the necessary work if you're going to think
|
|
in long terms."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "So this would tend to give credence to the fact that
|
|
there is going to be a nuclear holocaust."
|
|
"To get back to something we talked earlier on, how
|
|
does the Jewish Messiah scenario going to work?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "I don't know. I really don't know. What I've said
|
|
is all I know."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "...I think that there is a lot of speculation about religion
|
|
going on today among people who don't know enough about
|
|
projecty Aquarius that would lead them astray as to what the
|
|
facts are. Whatever they are, I don't think they got them, I
|
|
have a hunch about that."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "You're saying that the people looking at the religious
|
|
elements, don't know enough about the actual documents,
|
|
[content] etc...."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "No...they are not interfacing enough...the people in the
|
|
the religious field...such as Barry Downing and so on, they
|
|
aren't communicating enough with people like Friedman and
|
|
Moore...and so on, and Lee Graham. If they were to do that,
|
|
they might come up with a lot more...of the religious aspect."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "...you mean get a total picture of what's going on..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yeah, I think so, this is where you'd have to have
|
|
co-operation between two extremes...religion and science in
|
|
a way...but you don't get that. Separate fields...it
|
|
shouldn't be...it should be one field...one entity, one
|
|
group working together. Tracy and Mel [Torme] his father are
|
|
very much like myself, sort of agnostic, they don't bother
|
|
much with religion, although they are Jewish."
|
|
|
|
"...Harry [Tokarz - CUFORN Director along with Joe Muskat and
|
|
Larry Fenwick] does tend to go off the deep end at times...
|
|
about theory...on theories. He doesn't go off on tangents like
|
|
I do, I tend to go back and forth."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Is he Christian?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "No, he's Jewish. So is Joe, Joe Muskat our President, he is
|
|
also Jewish. Joe isn't much in the UFO field, he's our
|
|
president, just nominal, he knows a lot about photography, and
|
|
is very skeptical...fairly skeptical. He's done some good field
|
|
investigations, he's very good at that. But Harry is an all
|
|
round type...now I'm not that good at field investigations, I'm
|
|
good at writing about them, being a journalist. I've done some
|
|
...but Harry is probably the best out of the three of us...out
|
|
of the triumvirate...troika, whatever you want to call it."
|
|
|
|
"We've had some enquiries from the Soviet Union too...three.
|
|
One from membership, from East Germany....one asking questions
|
|
about telepathy and our research with UFOs, from a member of
|
|
the Soviet Academy of Sciences from Novisibirsk, Siberia. The
|
|
Institute of Medical Sciences...the man who has experimented
|
|
on telepathy with rats...successfully. It was written up in a
|
|
book called "Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain",
|
|
something like that...I've forgotten the name of the book now.
|
|
It was written by one of the fellows who used to write for the
|
|
Inquirer [Enquirer...or Inquirer?], I don't recall his name.
|
|
Those enquiries were quite interesting, I called the RCMP
|
|
[Canadian Police organization akin to the FBI-CIA] on those."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "And what happened..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "...we discussed it in my apartment for three hours with two
|
|
members of the RCMP. One veteran man from the security service,
|
|
who has since been transferred to Ottawa. And the other fellow
|
|
from the communications division. I answered the letters with
|
|
questions, in another letter. And I said [to the RCMP officers]
|
|
make sure you intercept any replies you get from the Soviet
|
|
Union, and I don't want to hear what the replies are. I don't
|
|
want to hear."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Oh...really?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Nah."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "...you just didn't want to get mixed up in this..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "That's right. They spent three hours in my apartment...we
|
|
talked about underwater bases in Lake Ontario, and this sort
|
|
of thing, and they said 'We know about it, but we can't
|
|
afford to get down there to see them.'"
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Really?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yeah, they know there's a base under there. Near Hamilton
|
|
in fact. In the deepest part of the Lake, there is an
|
|
underwater base containing a museum."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Containing a museum?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yeah, one of the two museums they [EBEs] have. One of two we
|
|
know of. One off of Cape Cod, and one in Lake Ontario. The
|
|
one off of Cape Cod is a technological museum which deals with
|
|
living things, which are frozen in time...sort of."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Ours or Theirs?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Ours. The one in Lake Ontario is a technological museum of
|
|
devices for [determining?] past, present and future. Our future.
|
|
And those have been recounted in two abduction cases. The
|
|
'Andreasson Affair' was the Cape Cod one, the museum was
|
|
mentioned there. And the abduction in St. Catherines of Jack T,
|
|
that was the technological museum.
|
|
|
|
So they're setting up museums...maybe for tourists...from other
|
|
planets? I dunno...who knows? I mean what the hell would you
|
|
do with a tourist, you go to museums. Logical enough from our
|
|
point of view. [previous paragraph was tongue-in-cheek]"
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "You sure that they're not Labs?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "No...no, they aren't. They don't do experiments. They are
|
|
frozen in...plastic, something like that."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Now, this entering into Lake Ontario, how would they actually
|
|
do that...just go into the water?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yeah. Going into the water, sure. They don't create a splash
|
|
or anything like that. They deflect gravity, and deflect the
|
|
waves so that there is no splash and so on. We've had a few
|
|
reports, some daylight reports that I've had. People won't
|
|
talk any further about them. This one guy, someone I knew
|
|
through a friend at work...who had been out in a boat in Lake
|
|
Ontario, just down near Humber Bay. One afternoon, rain had
|
|
just stopped...he was out fishing. And he saw this UFO under
|
|
the water...fluorescent...long sort of circular disk, under
|
|
the water, just a few feet under the water, it was smoothing
|
|
along under water, and it went out way towards Mimico, then
|
|
went Shooooshhhh back up to the sky like that [motions a
|
|
sharp steep upward curve]. Just like that. And I can't even
|
|
get the man to talk any further. I only spoke to him through
|
|
someone I knew through work, and not only on the phone...I
|
|
know the girl, this is her brother in-law. Went out with a
|
|
couple of other guys, there was three guys who saw this thing
|
|
and it was in broad daylight. It was just under the water, and
|
|
right beside their boat. They were scared as hell. And they
|
|
saw it shoot up into the air, it was sort of a greyish metallic
|
|
colour to it...and it went straight up, and was a disk shape.
|
|
And this is...oh about five years ago, something like that. I
|
|
have to look up my notes, I only made scribbled notes from a
|
|
telephone call at work, and it was all...I have a lot of
|
|
scribbled notes unfortunately. Only once in a while I get
|
|
around to typing some of this stuff out."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "One of the things mentioned by John Lear, as shown in this
|
|
column in the Fall issue of the Skeptical Inquirer is that
|
|
the Air Force currently has about thirty bodies of extra-
|
|
terrestrials in their possession. Do you think that is an
|
|
accurate number.?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "I would think so."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "What about live aliens, are there any currently being held
|
|
captive?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yeah, there is one which is the guest of the American gov't,
|
|
obviously one. I wouldn't say that he's a captive he's a
|
|
guest."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "And what do you know in regards to that?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "I don't know what he would know. I really don't know."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "But where is he staying, how are they treating him? Do
|
|
you know anything about that?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "No. No. I don't no. Other than what was on the TV show I
|
|
don't really know. But if he is a guest of the American
|
|
government, that could be a pseudonym for a captive. But
|
|
if they are running the show. If these aliens are...and I
|
|
say IF...if they are running the show, they are telling
|
|
the Americans how to handle the whole situation, then He's
|
|
in charge. Not a guest or a captive...he's in charge. He's
|
|
telling them what to do. If you had an IQ of 200, and
|
|
you're 400 years old lets say...375 years old, you can do
|
|
anything you want on this planet, and ain't nobody who's
|
|
going to stop you...really."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> [refering to CSICOP's Skeptical Inquirer - holding up an
|
|
issue]
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "...all the debunker's, armchair theorists."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "What is the line on Klass?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "What I know of Klass is through Todd Zechel. Who has had
|
|
battles in print and book. W. Todd Zechel, who has written
|
|
under the name of Ted Zachary for 'UFO Report' magazine...I
|
|
believe it was. He wrote a few articles [on it]. I forget
|
|
which issue it was, but he has written a few articles under
|
|
his name, and that phony name. And Todd has an unpublished
|
|
phone number, he uses his parent's phone and address...some
|
|
box number in Minnesota. I've talked with his parents, and
|
|
to him, on the phone. I've never met him in person. And he
|
|
and Klass have had this battle about his background. Klass
|
|
says how he worked in a bawdy house, he worked in a gas
|
|
station, [how] he never worked for the National Security
|
|
Agency. And Zechel says he [Klass] worked for NSA for ten
|
|
years and saw autopsy results on his desk...on dead aliens,
|
|
this sort of thing. And he [Zechel] said....he went into a
|
|
whole article, I don't know if you saw the article, I have
|
|
it at home...about Klass and his KGB connections, and CIA
|
|
connections..."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Now...do you believe what you are saying? [Klass allegations]"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes. Implicitly. He went into enough detail, that there was
|
|
not any doubt about it. He talked about Artamanov, who was the
|
|
head of the Soviet KGB's Assassination Bureau, who was a
|
|
personal friend of Philip Klass. He was sent over to assassinate
|
|
another Soviet...and Klass has been friends with him...they have
|
|
gone out on his yacht on the Potomac River...in American waters.
|
|
Klass' apartment, by the way, has been bugged by the FBI...has
|
|
been for quite some time. And Klass refuses to acknowledge that.
|
|
He works as a double agent, for both the KGB and CIA."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "He's a double agent?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes, for quite some time now. He's an "asset". What the CIA
|
|
call an asset. He doesn't work for the CIA directly, he's an
|
|
independent asset, having worked as the editor for "Aviation
|
|
News and Space Technology"...he's what they call an asset.
|
|
In other words, he publishes information that is fed to him by
|
|
the CIA...what they want published about technology....military
|
|
technology...gets into the magazine because of him. Of course,
|
|
he's retired now, he doesn't work for the magazine any more.
|
|
I've seen references to him still being with them [magazine],
|
|
he's not, he's retired. ...And he was seen on the yacht
|
|
talking to Artamanov...the assassin, or the Head of the
|
|
Assassination Bureau. And Klass has admitted publicly that he
|
|
has spent time, in bed, with a Soviet female agent...before he
|
|
met his wife. But he says [Klass speaking], "that doesn't make
|
|
me a KGB agent." [provokes laughter...which causes Fenwick to
|
|
remark]...on no, not much it doesn't [more laughter].
|
|
|
|
And then, Zechel had published a series of journals called,
|
|
"For Your Eyes Only", which is a very good title. And I have
|
|
all the issues except for one...but then he [Zechel] stopped
|
|
publishing. And his next issue was supposed to have an article
|
|
showing the Klass-CIA connection in terms of the UFOs. It
|
|
never appeared. And I have not had a chance to get in touch
|
|
with Todd for 5 months...something like that. I paid my dues,
|
|
my subscription fee, but I never got a hold of the that other
|
|
journal, a whole years [worth of] journals missed...I missed
|
|
the last one...and had to renew I guess.
|
|
|
|
He's very anti- Bill Moore. They have one hell of a royal
|
|
battle going on in print at times. Much as Klass was against
|
|
Zechel, very vituperative sort of thing."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "So Klass' role then...is to go around debunking all this
|
|
stuff because...."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Because he's been told to."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "He's been told to?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Sure, he's doing his job, that's all. I've seen all his
|
|
techniques on television...look at your watch...'oh..this
|
|
isn't important, I'll look at my watch...' [Klass] will
|
|
talk in generalities. [example - Klass speaking again]
|
|
'I've done research on so many cases.' What cases? He never
|
|
says. 'Of the hundreds of thousands of reports that I've
|
|
investigated...' Hundreds and thousands? C'mon... Sometimes
|
|
hundreds, sometimes thousands...it varies according to what
|
|
network he's on. In other words...ABC, CBS or whatever...
|
|
you know...it changes all the time. I got one of his books,
|
|
his first book. I went through that with a fine tooth comb,
|
|
and I had marked the margins all the way through. And I
|
|
wrote a letter to him, and he said, "Aw, you're all....if
|
|
you know so much about UFOs then you must be an alien."
|
|
I've got his letter to that effect [laughter]. And I took
|
|
apart his first book completely...I mean there isn't a
|
|
single fact that is verifiable there....and there are a lot
|
|
of lies in there, and a lot of cases that no one in the UFO
|
|
community has even heard of. [In regards to] obvious hoaxes,
|
|
he's picked out those ones...and then says that these are
|
|
typical of the UFO field....that's how he [Klass] operates.
|
|
And I've studied propaganda techniques at first year
|
|
journalism at Ryerson [Polytechnical in Toronto], the first
|
|
thing we did was study a sheet of propaganda techniques...
|
|
and he [Klass] has used them all. He's done his job, and
|
|
the other people at CSICOP have done their job too...
|
|
Sheaffer and Oberg. Oberg is a little more open minded than
|
|
some of the others. Harry [Tokarz] has had some
|
|
correspondence with Oberg...which isn't too bad actually,
|
|
although Oberg threatened to sue Harry, and Harry threatened
|
|
to sue him back...and nothing happened. Those three are the
|
|
CSICOP members in the UFO field...although there was that
|
|
channel 79 thing that they got involved in too, a few years
|
|
ago where there was a debate on UFOs. And then they had...
|
|
whats his name...the head of CSICOP in Buffalo...talk on the
|
|
show, and he was really arrogant...and it was quite a show.
|
|
|
|
It seems to me that there is also a Soviet connection, other
|
|
than Klass. First of all, James Oberg does spend time in the
|
|
Soviet Union and he has connections between NASA and the
|
|
Soviet Space program...he speaks perfect Russian...and so
|
|
does Carl Sagan speak perfect Russian. Carl Sagan spends
|
|
several months of the year in the Soviet Union. And Sagan
|
|
has made his statements through books and other appearances,
|
|
about UFOs...distorting the Betty and Barney Hill case on that
|
|
'Cosmos' series...beyond belief...I mean it [the way Sagan
|
|
presented it] was nothing like what happened. And then there
|
|
was that show that was done on PBS debunking UFO's, and
|
|
[Sagan] got his word in there too, as did Klass. It seems to
|
|
me that the Klass-Oberg-Sagan triumvirate is the Soviet KGB
|
|
connection between CSICOP and the Soviets. That is the
|
|
connection right there. And they may all be double agents."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "What is the Soviet UFO interest anyway?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "The interest in the technology...propulsion systems."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Do they have similar things going on as in the alien - U.S.
|
|
government arrangement?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "We've heard a few things, but only through the Enquirer,
|
|
about supposedly there was an attack on an alien base by
|
|
the Soviets..."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "But would you place some credence, or alot [as to the
|
|
veracity of the UFO stories in the 'National Enquirer']"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes. Some....Some. I think when you look at those three
|
|
fellows, Klass, Oberg and Sagan...you've got certainly
|
|
with Klass a double-agent. Oberg possible. Sagan maybe.
|
|
But I think there is a connection there. Now, I have heard
|
|
stories and theories about maybe the Soviets and the
|
|
Americans are working together on the UFO phenomenon,
|
|
[but] I don't think so. I think that they're both
|
|
interested in it, and that the 'good guys', the 'tall
|
|
ones' [Nords] who look like us, are working with the
|
|
Soviets, and the 'bad guys' [Grays] are working with the
|
|
Americans, which is really strange...but I think that's
|
|
what's happening."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "So its basically just those two groups [aliens] which
|
|
are involved?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes. Those are the two main races, of course."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "It would seem to make sense [using this scenario] that the
|
|
Aliens would play off the superpowers against one another."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes, this is why that when the Soviets and Americans talk
|
|
about SDI, the Soviets are against the SDI because any of
|
|
the tall ones who are coming back down to this planet...
|
|
maybe in some future invasion, or whatever in 1990...who
|
|
knows what it is... The Soviets, being linked with the good
|
|
guys would not want the Americans to have the SDI program
|
|
to fend off the good guys. Makes sense...so there may be a
|
|
...I'm just saying, this is just theory...but it may be, it
|
|
just may be. I hope I'm wrong. I hope the Americans are with
|
|
the good guys, and the Soviets with the bad guys...that
|
|
would make more sense from a Western point of view [jokingly]"
|
|
|
|
|
|
[-Break-]
|
|
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "...with the U.S. Navy being involved with Aquarius [Project]
|
|
in the states."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Is the U.S. Navy to a large degree involved with Aquarius?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes...the Canadian...all navies are involved...we have a
|
|
member [of CUFORN] of the Swedish Navy who just joined."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Is the fact that the navies are involved related to the
|
|
existence of the underwater bases?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes, I think so. Basically, that's part of it. But people
|
|
would never suspect the Navy being involved in land events
|
|
you see, so that's one way of covering it up...use the Navy.
|
|
Its a very good cover."
|
|
|
|
|
|
[-Break-]
|
|
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "The public must know. It has to be put in the proper context
|
|
for the public, so that they can take it. That's very
|
|
difficult."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Getting back to the Moore 'programming' thing, I wanted to
|
|
get into that in a little more detail, 'cause lets face it,
|
|
it does sound a little..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Farfetched?"
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Farfetched, strange...whatever you want to call it."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes...it certainly does. He [Bill Moore] may have had an
|
|
incident whereby a scar was left...they [EBEs] took tissue
|
|
samples, and at that time a probe MAY [his emphasis] have
|
|
been inserted in his head. A probe whereby he would be
|
|
implanted with a communication device whereby they would
|
|
program him to act the way that he is acting. Thats all
|
|
I'm saying. Maybe."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "And when did this incident take place, when you confronted
|
|
Moore with this allegation?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "1982 at the MUFON Symposium in Toronto."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "And you said..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "He said...I'll go into more detail here...He said that when
|
|
he was....his mother asked him..."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "So you asked him first...just to clarify exactly what the
|
|
exchange was between the two of you..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes, I said, 'What's that scar...I think I notice a scar
|
|
there?' [Moore now speaking ->] 'Yeah, I covered up my
|
|
moustache' I said [Fenwick], 'How did that happen?' He says,
|
|
[Moore again] 'Well...I think it was as a child, some kid
|
|
threw his little metal toy truck at me' [Fenwick] or
|
|
something like that. [Moore] '...but my mother says it
|
|
never happened. All she said was that I came home bleeding
|
|
one day, and you said' [Moore as a child] 'I don't know
|
|
how this happened.' [Fenwick] And that's all. 'And this is
|
|
what I think happened [Moore referring to the toy truck
|
|
story].' 'But I don't know', he said [Fenwick referring to
|
|
Moore again] 'I really don't know, and I don't want to
|
|
talk about it anymore.'[Fenwick again] ...and that was all."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "And what was his manner of speech at the time?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "And then I said, 'Maybe you were abducted?' He said, 'I
|
|
don't want to talk about anything like that.' [Fenwick
|
|
again] thats all. He had fear in his face...fear in his
|
|
eyes, he was AFRAID [Fenwick's emphasis]"
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "He had fear in his eyes?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Oh Ya, Definitely. He started shaking."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "He started shaking?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Ya...just for a second. He turned his face away from me."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "How does the major media handle UFO sighting information?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "The three major networks, according to Tracy Torme...there
|
|
are three men who work with Project Aquarius, who are senior
|
|
executives, or are under contract with Project Aquarius, at
|
|
CBS. Three of them. There are two with NBC, and one at ABC.
|
|
In other words they monitor what goes on the air. They WILL
|
|
NOT allow anything to go on the air, because of their status
|
|
within the networks, that has to do with Project Aquarius.
|
|
And that's why ["UFO Coverup - LIVE tv prog] had to go on
|
|
the Lexington Broadcasting System in the states, which has
|
|
one hundred and ninety outlets, and it was on those stations,
|
|
which are in major markets in the United States, and on
|
|
Global [TV Network] in Canada. Not CTV or CBC. Minor stuff
|
|
[tv stations that is]...so this is how they keep it out of
|
|
the major networks."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "And there is nothing written? Its all verbal?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "That's right...Tracy tried to get ahold of ABC, but they
|
|
turned him down flat. And he knows people there, but it
|
|
didn't help any. They are the most likely of the networks to
|
|
put something on [connected with UFOs] since there is only
|
|
one man there from Aquarius, or on contract with them. So
|
|
he [Tracy] thought he'd try that one, but it didn't work."
|
|
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "What about Groom Lake, what do you know about that?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "That's the crash in '84 of the UFO. Robert Bond, General
|
|
Robert Bond, he's the pilot. That's Groom Lake. I found
|
|
it on the map by the way."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Is that a base of some sort?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "...its on the fringe of the Atomic Energy Commission's
|
|
testing grounds. Groom Lake is a dry lake, its on the
|
|
map of Nevada, I found it. Fair size lake, a dry lake. Its
|
|
surrounded by mountain ranges...no towns around it. Its
|
|
restricted airspace. That's where the crash occurred. Its
|
|
where they test experimental vehicles, that area."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "What about Dulce, New Mexico?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Dulce? That's on the border between Mexico and Arizona."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "And supposedly there is a huge underground base there..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Supposedly, this is Tracy Torme's surmised...what he's
|
|
talked about. No one's seen an underground base [those in
|
|
UFOlogy circles], they've only guessed. Its only been
|
|
guesswork about that, and [about] some incidents that have
|
|
occurred down there, some sightings."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "...and the incidents...about fighting and shooting between
|
|
soldiers and...."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Rumour. Rumour. That's all rumour."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "So...you have nothing to add then..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "No..no...what's been printed in the National Enquirer or
|
|
other magazines or between UFOlogists...no ones proved that
|
|
at all. That could be a lot of nonsense."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "One question I have to ask [from ParaNet Member Joe Holland],
|
|
goes as follows, ' I keep getting indications the aliens are
|
|
preparing the abductees to act or do something at some future
|
|
time, and they are being programmed with the knowledge of
|
|
what to do, this knowledge to emerge later. Like Budd Hopkins
|
|
said, they were shown a box that they would know what to do
|
|
with later. Have you come across this? What is the future
|
|
time, and what is supposed to happen? A natural disaster?
|
|
An invasion, takeover?'"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "No one knows...except the abductees....I have a tape of
|
|
'Jack' in St. Catherines, I have a tape of his subconscious
|
|
talking, under hypnosis. Saying that if he were to REVEAL
|
|
what he is programmed to do...then it would self-destruct,
|
|
the program. So it cannot be revealed."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "So who is this person again?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "'Jack'...its not his real name, he's an abductee. One of
|
|
the three guys from that rockband who were abducted
|
|
[reference to a past CUFORN investigation]."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Does he have an implant?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Oh Yes, sure. But he is not to know what that mission is...
|
|
You talk about a mission..."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Obviously its ominous. An assassination..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Who knows...he's used the name Mission, thats all."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "So its all just speculation then..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "That's right. But Harry and I agree on that...all the
|
|
abductees have the same mission. Helping maybe...helping
|
|
survivors or something. I knows theres been talk..."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Oh...so it could be positive in a way?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Oh Yes, sure it could be. The survivors of the catastrophe
|
|
or whatever it is, will be assisted by abductees. Move to
|
|
higher ground or safe ground, whatever. The one geological
|
|
thing was supposed to be the flooding of the coastlines and
|
|
so on, but also [that] southern Ontario will be underwater
|
|
all the way to Barrie. The CN tower will be underwater. And
|
|
this is 1990. We're talking 1990. Also central China will
|
|
be underwater...a huge lake. And England underwater, the
|
|
United Kingdom completely underwater. No Florida left,
|
|
New York City gone."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "That might indicate some kind of pole shift..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "All sorts of things are possible. Maybe a whole series of
|
|
things. But again, this 2-star general said no...nothing
|
|
geological is involved at all. And this is 1990 we're
|
|
talking. Probably just after this, or just before this
|
|
meeting between the Anti-christ and Enoch and so on. All
|
|
that same year...that's what we've been hearing. It just
|
|
seems too much of a coincidence. Something is going to
|
|
happen that year...but what it is I don't know, I'll put
|
|
it that way. Something...but what it is I don't know.
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "You mentioned earlier to me, that you see in the coming
|
|
months, similar Gulf Breeze type incidents, that don't
|
|
exactly create a lot of controversy among the public, but
|
|
the media..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "...publicizes them."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "But you definitely don't think it [GB] was a hoax though?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "No. Gulf Breeze? No. I think that there's something to
|
|
it...I don't necessarily believe the photographs, but I
|
|
think somethings happened down there. The photographs
|
|
may be hoaxes. I haven't seen the photographs from the
|
|
other people. No names have ever been released of the
|
|
other people who took these photographs. There's talk
|
|
only. Who are these people? I haven't seen any names."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "There's something about just looking at the GB photos
|
|
that..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "...doesn't seem right."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "The port holes [in the UFO]..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "...I know, it looks too good in a way. Its like the Meier
|
|
case. I think that something has happened down there [GB],
|
|
and the media are picking up on it. And publicity....in the
|
|
past you never had flaps getting major publicity like this.
|
|
That's the only thing that's happening."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Somebody has suggested recently that what could happen is
|
|
that this thing could be exposed shortly, and put UFOlogy
|
|
back underground for another five years."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "That could happen too. Everyone's cautious about this. You
|
|
have to be. Even MUFON, in their magazines they've said the
|
|
same thing...who knows, maybe its all a hoax. They haven't
|
|
said outright, except lately, that its 99% proven. No ones
|
|
done a complete...not even Bruce Maccabee hasn't done a
|
|
complete enough analysis on these photographs. No one has,
|
|
which is odd. You know Bruce has said that he has looked
|
|
at all the photographs...and he talks about the things he
|
|
looks for...but he hasn't shown anything on that TV show,
|
|
he did not show any printouts of the computer analysis,
|
|
until I see that, and I know how that's done...then I
|
|
leave everything up on the air. I do think that something
|
|
has happened there. If there are ten cases, reports of
|
|
'missing time'...something in UFOlogy, something has
|
|
happened, [if] there have been encounters. The photograph
|
|
may have something to do with something else. I think
|
|
the photographs may be a hoax."
|
|
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Getting back to the Harbinson books now..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "They are tests of the readers. The latest one [Light of
|
|
Eden] is a little bit off base. I think of the three books,
|
|
the second one, "Revelation" is the one that is closest to
|
|
the truth. Or certainly would evoke the most comment from
|
|
readers, of the three. [The books] are testing the waters,
|
|
psychological testing. Now maybe the aliens, through NSA,
|
|
through Harbinson, want to test Us...find out what are
|
|
minds are like, how we react to things like this. That
|
|
could be all it is. Its a thought...that may be all that
|
|
they are doing here."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Now what if someone says to you, prove to me that Harbinson
|
|
was an NSA operative. What would you say?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "How would I prove that Harbinson was NSA?" I've only
|
|
heard through someone else, second hand. And no where
|
|
in the background of Harbinson is it mentioned that he
|
|
was NSA, obviously they wouldn't mention that."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Needless to say, people are always looking for hard
|
|
proof and evidence in this field, for obvious reasons.
|
|
What would you say to them in light of what you have
|
|
said today, with the many claims?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "...thats right [people always say] 'Show me the facts
|
|
..show me statements...show me statements.'"
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "And no doubt many will say that of you..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Of course, sure. We have to have some skepticism,
|
|
obviously, and I've shown my skepticism to some extent
|
|
[today]. So I think you have to be conservative, and at
|
|
the same time you have to be open-mnded, a little bit
|
|
of both, a balance of the two. I've been 37 years in
|
|
UFOlogy, so I know a little bit about what's going on.
|
|
I have an overview by now. I'm not the only one...we
|
|
have one member [CUFORN] who's been in it longer than
|
|
I have. Bill Allen was formerly a field investigator
|
|
at A.P.R.O, who lives out in B.C.[British Columbia].
|
|
So if you are in it long enough, obviously you are going
|
|
to get some sort of overview."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Ok Larry, I think we covered most of the things I wanted
|
|
to cover. If you would like to finish up with a summation
|
|
as to where you think UFOlogy is today, and where its
|
|
headed..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Ok fine...any other questions that you have, I would be
|
|
glad to answer them."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Yes, it would be nice if you could come back in, lets say
|
|
three weeks? And attempt to answer any questions that have
|
|
arisen by that time."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes, sounds fine....There's only about 5,000 people in
|
|
North America involved in UFOlogy...something like that..."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Yes, and its growing all the time. A lot of people with a
|
|
casual interest..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Thats all, a lot of those fringe people. We don't get those
|
|
people as members at all, we're too fussy, we're not another
|
|
MUFON. You know they'll accept pretty well anyone into the
|
|
organization. We're fairly fussy about that."
|
|
|
|
|
|
"I think that what we have to do, is to maintain an open
|
|
mind with skepticism, about whatever we hear about the
|
|
UFO field. Regardless of how long we've been in it, or
|
|
what are viewpoints are. And we have to say to ourselves,
|
|
'If what has been talked about, at this point in time is
|
|
true, [then] there's very little that we can do about it.
|
|
So we might tend to become fatalistic, and say well, live
|
|
it up...live for today and forget about tomorrow, because
|
|
we're all going to go. Or maybe we can say that it is all
|
|
baloney'...and so what? Again, with WW III coming up, what
|
|
can we do to tell the public. Why stick to the UFO field
|
|
then. Why don't we as field investigators, those who have
|
|
gone out into the field and investigated these cases...why
|
|
don't we spend more time educating the public, and not
|
|
saying to ourselves, 'Oh, well what do they [the public]
|
|
know about it'...let them find out what we know about it,
|
|
and what we don't know about it. What we are guessing
|
|
about, and what we know. You have to counter the frustration
|
|
and ignorance of the general public in regards to what
|
|
UFOs signify...I think that might be the best way to put
|
|
it in general. Whats the phenomenon, if you want to use
|
|
the word phenomenon, I don't like the use of that word.
|
|
But what does it mean to the human race, and to the future
|
|
of the human race. If we give information to people...
|
|
information can't hurt you, it can only help you. Fear
|
|
is the worst thing you could have...if you don't know those
|
|
things and are afraid of it. If you know the truth, then
|
|
you can't be afraid. You'll be set free from your fears.
|
|
You have to be willing to disseminate information...and
|
|
mention theory, as theory only...speculation only. Try
|
|
and get feedback from the public also, and from people in
|
|
the military intelligence area who may feel as we do, that
|
|
the public should know more about what's going on. I think
|
|
that summarizes what I'm going to say."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "If what is going to happen...is going to happen..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "...what can we do about it. If we can't do anything about
|
|
it..."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "...but CAN we do anything about it?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes, that's the question, the main question...'can we'. I
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|
really don't know if we can do anything about it. I've
|
|
been living hedonistically for a few years now, since '82
|
|
actually...[half-humourous]"
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|
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<Mickus> "Yes, but there's got to be something that we can do...
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Education..."
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<Fenwick> "Education...preparing people for the inevitable...or the
|
|
evitable...the unavoidable"
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|
<Mickus> "I mean this isn't set in stone...theoretically people
|
|
could alter what's going to happen..."
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|
|
|
<Fenwick> "En masse maybe, not individually. If they [EBEs] know the
|
|
future, then there's nothing we can do about it."
|
|
|
|
"You have to discuss using, if you are in the UFO field,
|
|
your knowledge...your background, your reading...your
|
|
contacts, your speculations. You have to discuss all these
|
|
things, cases...individual cases. You have to discuss
|
|
statistics...the results of statistical studies that have
|
|
been done. And unfortunately there have been a lot of
|
|
statistical studies done, but very little in the way of
|
|
analysis of the statistics, in every area of the UFO field.
|
|
That needs to be done, and very few writers have done it.
|
|
I mean that there's a lot of books out...various compendiums
|
|
of things, and specific cases... You have to be very
|
|
cautious about what you read about the UFO field. You
|
|
have to make notes as you read. [saying to yourself] 'I
|
|
remember this case...that correlates with the one he's
|
|
talking about in this chapter here...or make a note in the
|
|
margin about another case...' And I do that when something
|
|
ties in. If you get enough..., its like, if you go out to
|
|
investigate a UFO report, if theres only one observer, then
|
|
it doesn't mean a lot, if there are two...then it means
|
|
more. Same theme, correlations...combinations, this sort of
|
|
thing, multiple observer...and cases that are similar in
|
|
some respects...that are major aspects of a case."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "The 'yellow book' and the 'blue book'...do you know what
|
|
is in those?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "No. Sounds like a whole bunch of things are mixed in. I
|
|
would be more interested in reading what Meier supposed...
|
|
I've got a little bit more about him..."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "So you're not willing to write the Meier thing off?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "No I'm not. Nor is Harry [Tokarz], Harry thinks its all
|
|
genuine too. Joe [Muskat] is skeptical. Very...he thinks
|
|
its all baloney, that Meier thing. I don't know. I just
|
|
don't know. I have to be honest, I don't know. I'm neutral
|
|
on that. Show me...show me the facts, show me proof...
|
|
evidence, enough evidence that constitutes proof in a court
|
|
of law. Regardless what Phil Klass says, 'he says show me
|
|
the proof?' We show him evidence, and that's not enough.
|
|
[show Klass] Massive evidence, still not enough. That's
|
|
extreme..., stupidity not skepticism."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "What's Moore's agenda?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "I wish I knew."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Is his linked to the aliens agenda?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "I don't know."
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|
|
|
<Mickus> "But he at this point, knows everything...he's just releasing
|
|
bits and pieces..."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes...and Harry keeps accusing him of wanting to make money
|
|
out of it. Because...well he's got no other income, actually
|
|
he has to, you can't blame him."
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Do you think that he [Moore] is pretty fatalistic about
|
|
this whole thing? And he's just in it right now for what
|
|
he can get out of it?"
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Ask him...I don't know. And Bill doesn't talk. Bill is
|
|
very very sensitive. You can bring up a topic on UFOlogy
|
|
and he'll say, 'Well, I'd rather not talk about it.' He
|
|
wants to make money out of it...thats all there is to it.
|
|
He has kids...a divorced wife, and kids to support and so
|
|
on, so you can't blame him, I would too. Hell, you got no
|
|
other income, you gotta hold back [on the release of info].
|
|
You can't give all the information out, if you are going
|
|
to put it into book form, or a video to sell...or whatever.
|
|
That's the way he's got to do it, I'm sure. Harry is very
|
|
jealous of the fact that Bill is on it full-time, a lot of
|
|
people are I would think. You have to look at it from
|
|
Bill's point of view too, really. There's two ways of
|
|
looking at it. You have to put yourself into the other
|
|
person's place."
|
|
|
|
|
|
<Mickus> "Well, Thank You very much Larry for this interview."
|
|
|
|
<Fenwick> "Yes, my pleasure. Hope to see you in three weeks time
|
|
to respond to any questions."
|
|
|
|
|
|
[-END-]
|
|
|
|
|
|
======================================================================
|
|
|
|
As was mentioned in the interview, Larry Fenwick, due to the fact that
|
|
he is not yet linked up with a computer and modem (perhaps in 6 months
|
|
time), has agreed to come back to my residence to answer any questions
|
|
that may have arisen over some of the content contained herein. The
|
|
Interview took place on Nov.6, so I expect Larry to return towards the
|
|
end of Nov/88. In addition, future interview and input by Larry on the
|
|
system, have not been ruled out. This interview was not intended to
|
|
plug CUFORN (Canadian U.F.O. Research Network - Incorporated 1977) If
|
|
you would like more information on CUFORN, please access the CUFORN
|
|
Bulletin Menu Option off of the UFOlogy Menu here at ParaNet Pi.
|
|
|
|
Those wishing to submit questions (not attacks), are asked to leave
|
|
them in the UFOlogy Conference Area here at ParaNet Pi. Upon calling,
|
|
you will be given immediate access to both the UFOlogy Conference
|
|
and UFOlogy File areas (where currently we have over 250 UFO related
|
|
files on-line, along with file captures of the FIDONET UFO Echo, and
|
|
ParaNet Alpha Msg Base). Questions should be addressed to "Larry
|
|
Fenwick". His user number here is "70". Questions and/or comments
|
|
directed to Larry can be entered in directly, or through XMODEM of
|
|
a msg (of not more than 4k) into the Conference area. Anyone who
|
|
has questions for me personally, may leave them either in the
|
|
Conference area, or through private E-mail, depending on the question.
|
|
|
|
The transcript of this interview may be reproduced for personal use
|
|
only, and may be posted on other Bulletin Board Systems, provided that
|
|
credit is given ParaNet. This file may not be edited without the the
|
|
permission of Tom Mickus. In addition, this file shall not be printed
|
|
in any publication without my own consent. It remains the property of
|
|
the Sysop of THE CRUCIBLE, namely...
|
|
|
|
-Tom Mickus 11/10/88
|
|
|
|
======================================================================
|
|
THE CRUCIBLE <ParaNet Pi> 416-244-9999 - 24Hrs - 12/24/9600 - 44 Megs
|
|
======================================================================
|
|
|
|
|
|
APPENDIX:
|
|
--------
|
|
|
|
The following is a brief recounting of what myself and
|
|
Larry Fenwick spoke about in the initial 45 mins of
|
|
the interview. Approximately one third was taken up
|
|
with an in-depth biography of Larry Fenwick. Everthing
|
|
below will be my [Tom Mickus'] words, which I have to
|
|
the best of my ability re-collected as to the content
|
|
and subject matter of what we discussed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
[Larry Fenwick is in his early 50'. He has had a long
|
|
involvement with the study of UFOs. Originally he got
|
|
fascinated with the subject in the early 1950's, when
|
|
I believe he read Donald Keyhoe's book on the subject
|
|
entitled something like "Flying Saucers are Real". He
|
|
is of Jewish descent, although I believe he would
|
|
characterize himself as "non-practicing". In his early
|
|
years he had some difficulties in high school, and
|
|
flunked several grades. Later on he took 2 years of
|
|
psychology in University, but did not graduate. In
|
|
the 1960's he attended Ryerson Polytechnical Intstitute
|
|
in Toronto, Ontario, and received a degree in journalism
|
|
shortly thereafter. He later on had several jobs in
|
|
the industry, and journalism led him eventually to his
|
|
role as editor of the CUFORN Bulletin. Like many, it
|
|
was several years before his interest in UFO's grew..
|
|
and eventually he and a few others decided to set an
|
|
incorporated organization called CUFORN (the Canadian
|
|
UFO Research Network). He has been involved with many
|
|
on-site investigations of UFO's since then, and before.
|
|
He has read over 400 books on the subject, and has
|
|
appeared on local television and radio numerable times.
|
|
Through the ebb and flow of interest in UFO's, Larry's
|
|
organization has stayed with it, and today numbers
|
|
around 50 members from across the globe.]
|
|
|
|
[In the remaining minutes of the first 45 min tape, we
|
|
discussed the two programs UFO Coverup LIVE, and the
|
|
UNSOLVED MYSTERIES - Gulf Breeze segment. Of particular
|
|
note is that Larry told me that his associate, Harry
|
|
Tokarz, had noticed an unusual buzzing or hum, present
|
|
on the audio throughout the duration of the program.
|
|
Although Larry says that he never noticed it until Harry
|
|
had told him, on subsequent viewing of the videotape,
|
|
Larry agreed that the sound was discernible, and like
|
|
nothing he had ever heard before on a LIVE broadcast. I
|
|
got the distinct impression that he felt that this was
|
|
the EBEs making their presence known, in a method (radio
|
|
interference) not unheard of by UFOlogists.
|
|
|
|
We also discussed why the aliens view the human's as a
|
|
"failed experiment".
|
|
|
|
When referring to the programming of Hitler by the EBEs,
|
|
which in effect caused World War II (the decisions of one
|
|
man)...Larry also mentioned the one other incident where
|
|
he said that the aliens had manipulated a world leader to
|
|
do their bidding. He cited the fact that John F. Kennedy
|
|
was supposed to bring us to nuclear war, but that he had
|
|
backed down, and as a result the aliens sought "revenge".
|
|
In other words they were wholly or in part, responsible
|
|
for the assassination of JFK. Larry Fenwick gave me a
|
|
name of some person labelled 'the _______ tramp" or vagrant
|
|
or something along that line who was supposed to be
|
|
involved. I plan to get back to Larry to get more specific
|
|
details regarding this sensational allegation. He cited
|
|
the failed Bay of Pigs fiasco as Kennedy's big mistake in
|
|
the eyes of the aliens. JFK was supposed to carry through
|
|
with it, and thus eventually it would provoke nuclear war
|
|
with the Soviets in defense of Cuba. Larry Fenwick said
|
|
that the aliens were not involved with the cause of WW I.
|
|
|
|
Fenwick also discussed the role of the Hollywood in
|
|
promoting the "friendly ET image", specifically the role
|
|
of celebrated director, Steven Speilberg. Fenwick said that
|
|
there are two close associates of Speilberg who have been
|
|
encouraging him to produce movies along this line. While
|
|
Speilberg is not "programmed" himself, these other two
|
|
unnamed people apparently attended school with him, and have
|
|
been vigourously suggestive with Speilberg as to what
|
|
directions his movies should be going in. Speilberg is aware
|
|
of this, but has decided to go along. The movies in question
|
|
include of course "Close Encounters of the Third Kind", more
|
|
recently "Batteries Not Included", and of course "E.T. the
|
|
Extraterrestrial"...the most popular movie of all time,
|
|
grossing close to 1,000,000,000 dollars in both movie reciepts
|
|
and in videotape sales. Fenwick has alleged that this
|
|
campaign of showing aliens in a good light, is part of the
|
|
master plan of the EBEs (or aliens), who, for whatever
|
|
ultimate reason, want people to have this benevolent view of
|
|
them.
|
|
|
|
That's about it. There was more, but perhaps when my memory
|
|
is refreshed I will be able to recount the rest.]
|
|
|
|
|
|
[ - END OF FILE -]
|
|
**********************************************
|
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* THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo *
|
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********************************************** |