322 lines
14 KiB
Plaintext
322 lines
14 KiB
Plaintext
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Domination & Submission
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Topic: Safe Words and Issues of Trust
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Welcome to SPOTLIGHT ON D&S, a FORMAL CO in
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which we discuss topics of interest to D&S practicers (and, what the heck,
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fantasizers). Just a reminder: if you have a question, please type ?. If
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you have a comment, please type !. You'll be called upon in turn. At the
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end of your question or comment, please type ga.
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Tonight, we'd like to discuss an issue that has once again reared its head
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in the message section: SAFEWORDS and other issues of trust. We've seen
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that the estimable Master Red Dawn and the winsome Allysse have had words
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on this in the messages. Would either of you care to speak out now? ga
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(12,MRD) !
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Please go ahead, MRD! ga
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(12,MRD) Thank you. I might as well put the issue and take the heat
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(grin). My position on safe words is simple and it is based on many, many
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years of experience. Safe words have, in my view, no purpose that is
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worthwhile and that is not handled much better by other forms of commun-
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ication. They do, however, have the very negative effect of giving a
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submissive person the false feeling that he or she has the ultimate
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ability to stop a dominant person from doing whatever. In short, if you
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want a dominant to stop something, they may or may not stop, same as with
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a safe word. But at least you won't feel that you have an absolute veto
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power over the dominant that, in fact, you may not. Don't trust to a safe
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word--ever! If you don't completely trust your dominant and still wish to
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submit to him or her, then make sure that someone checks on you regularly.
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THAT may help, but a safe word will not. I thank you, and now let the
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good times roll. ga
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(12,Warren G.) !
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(12,:: Allysse ::) !
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Warren, please make your comment. ga
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(12,Warren G.) Thanks. I believe that a safe-word is just a matter of
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trust and that if the trust is not there anyway, words don't work. ga
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Very well put! Allysse, you have a comment?
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ga
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(12,:: Allysse ::) I see the safe word as a necessary evil in a new
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relationship until the two people, especially the Dom, can read the sub.
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Not all Doms can read a sub like one who has practiced for a long time.
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It is not a stop all: it is just a security blanket, not to control from
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the bottom but to start the communication. As the trust grows then the
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word will no longer be meeded. ga
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(12,Warren G.) ?
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(12,MRD) !
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Allysse. Warren, you have a
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question? ga
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(12,Warren G.) Yes, thanks. Ally -- Are you saying that this is a
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security situation that is needed for a D&s relationship or for a D&s
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activity that is not a relationship ? ga
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Allysse, do you wish to answer? ga
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(12,john h.) ?
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(12,:: Allysse ::) Basically in the not lifestyle type of relationship or
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in the early beginnings of a lifestyle where two people meet over this
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media for instance. GA
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks! MRD!!! You have a comment? ga
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(12,Warren G.) !
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(12,MRD) Yes. Look, folks, there is a very important point here that
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is being obscured. And it's not impossible that someone's life may
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depend on it someday. The idea of a safe word, as I have always under-
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stood it, is that when the submissive person speaks such a word, the
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events end right there. Whatever is going on stops. There is an almost
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magical belief this will happen that is very, very misleading. How about
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this? If someone is pushing you too far, no matter if they know you well
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or not, if it is lifestyle or not, say something like "That hurts too
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much," or "I'm scared," or whatever is the damn _truth_ of the situation
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as opposed to some magical incantation called a safe word. Actually
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_saying_ something gives the other person the information needed to help
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him or her make what is often a quick decision and is always an important
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decision. Now, what advantage does a safe word have over actually saying
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something? I'll answer that (grin). I can think of one small one, maybe.
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That a short word, uttered suddenly, may get the attention of the other
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person where something else wouldn't. Frankly, however, I don't think
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that's likely, and the dangers of that pathetic belief in the power of a
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magic word are very serious. ga
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(12,Kay B.) !
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(12,Tom and lori) ?
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(12,:: Allysse ::) !
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, MRD! John H, you have a question? ga
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(12,john h.) Asked and answered I think....both "sides" seem to aproach
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the issue of communication from slightly different directions. The only
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advantage of a safe word I can see is telling the difference between
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"Don't..........Stop !" and "Don't Stop". What do you think is best at
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the very beginning of a relationship? This sub is still looking. ga
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) We'll see what everyone has to say, John.
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Warren, you have a comment? ga
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(12,Warren G.) Yes, thanks, a rather long one. First -- safe words are
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often not remembered in the heat of the situation, and one of the things
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I do when I am DOM is to check in a way that is both staying TOP and
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monitering the emotions and feelings of the sub. I believe that MRD is
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right: honest communication is far SAFER and more important. If a person
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is in the role of a DOM they are there because they have a deep sense of
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the energy and honesty of the people they are in contact with and should
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be able to tell the difference between DON'T ..... STOP and DON'T STOP!
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ga
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Warren! Kay B, you have a comment?
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ga
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(12,Kay B.) Thanks. It seems to me that in the heat of the activity, even
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a very observant dom can get carried away. The safe word, has no magic,
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but it can become a clear and unambiguous signal between the partners, to
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stop. It seems best to me, when that word is not one that is normally
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used during the D/s activity, so that it cannot be misunderstood. ga
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Kay! Tom & lori, you have a
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question? ga
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(12,MRD) !
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(12,Tom and lori) Yes, thank you. Isn't it possible for a "safeword" to
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possibly be misused in the beginning of a relationship where the limits of
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the activities are still being explored? How would someone in a new
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relationship begin to understand their limits and still expand them? ga
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Perhaps someone will comment on that, Tom &
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lori. Allysse, you have a comment? ga
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(12,:: Allysse ::) Tough one
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Allysse, was that your comment? ga
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(12,:: Allysse ::) excuse me I have an interruption here with one of the
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kids
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(12,:: Allysse ::) go ahead
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Okay, we"ll get back to you. MRD, you have a
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comment? ga
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(12,MRD) Yes. What kay pointed out was what I had in mind when pointed one
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possible advantage to a safe word. And it's hard to absolutely deny that
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it could be helpful in some situation. But my concern, as I keep pointing
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out (grin), is the idea that just because someone agrees to stop if he or
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she hears a safe word, that he or she will in fact stop. If you are
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concerned about someone's judgment, you need to do _something_ to protect
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yourself that's better than a word. If you have something backing up that
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word, like a friend who will check on you regularly, then the safe word is
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less dangerous. About Tom and lori's question: it's a good one, and I
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think that's sometimes a real problem. I think that even if I agreed to a
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safe word for some reason, I might violate that agreement if I felt that I
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were being manipulated by someone using the word without good reason, and
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I'm pretty damn careful. So I think the only answer is NOT to expect the
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question of expansion of limits to be raised during the early parts of a
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relationship, when trust has not been completely established. ga
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(12,Kay B.) !
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(12,john h.) ?
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(12,Lisle) !
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, MRD! Allysse, are you ready now, or
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shall we get back to you later? ga
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Okay! Kay B, you have a comment? ga
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(12,Kay B.) Yes, It seems to me that getting involved with someone whom
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you do not trust is exceedingly foolish...safe word or no! But the trust
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has to go both ways: the dom must be trusted to listen to the sub, and
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the sub must be trusted not to misuse the safe word. As the relationship
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escalates over time the safe word may be used less and less, but it is
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always available when needed. ga
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(12,Warren G.) !
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Allysse, ta da! Your moment has arrived! ga
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(12,:: Allysse ::) Best way for me to handle this is from personal
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experience. I met Joel on here. I went to meet him after talking to him
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for a long time on here. I trusted him but he was an unknown to me. I
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had other safe features in place but I had the "safeword" also. This made
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my first visit with Joel okay in my head but remember I had never met him.
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I needed to know that there was a word that could be used to start the
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communication. That is why I think the safeword is necessary in this type
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of media D/s relationship just a small security blanket which may never be
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used. GA
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(12,MRD) !
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(12,Kay B.) !
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Allysse...it was delayed but well
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worth waiting. John H, you have a question? ga
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(12,john h.) the males? I know I'm not invulnerable, but it seems that
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most of the stories you hear about Doms hurting subs and not heeding safe
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words or whatever protection the sub has involve male Doms and female
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subs. Also I like Allysse's method of "returning" the safe word to the
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Dom from whence it came when the sub feels safe enough to do so. GA
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(12,Tom and lori) ?
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, John. I suspect it applies to either
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gender. Lisle, you have a comment? ga
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(12,Lisle) The only time that I think a safeword is useful is during a
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casual public scene. Neither party knows the other and the safeword
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provides the safety margin. I gave Gina a safeword when I did a scene
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with her in the Vault and I have done so in one other case and that is the
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only time I have ever used it. Actually I think the safeword in a
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relationship between two inexperienced people may be truly dangerous in
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that the dominant seeks the safeword as sign of submission without trying
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to understand the submissives physical and emotional state and the
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submissve holds back on saying the safeword to keep from admitting
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submission. ga
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Lisle (very nicely said!). MRD,
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your comment? ga
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(12,MRD) OK. Allysse illustrated my point in her description of her
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experiences. She said that she wasn't sure if she could trust Joel and
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that having a safe word made her feel in her mind that it was OK to go
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and see him. But what if Joel had been a psychopath? What if he had, in
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fact, been untrustworthy? That safe word would have meant exactly
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nothing, and Allysse's feeling that the trip was OK would have been dead
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wrong. And possibly _deadly_ wrong. I realize that this is a "worst-
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case scenario," but that is exactly my concern about the misleading nature
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of safe words. To sum it up, a safe word is like a charm that a person
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believes will protect him or her, but it will not. Those who believe in it
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do so because they _want_ to believe that they can be completely safe,
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which they cannot. But this belief may cause them _not_ to take pre-
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cautions which might _actually_ serve to protect them, and that is the real
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danger. Thank you. ga
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, MRD! Kay B. your comment? ga
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(12,Kay B.) Yes, I don't understand how one can give back a safe word
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unless both partners have a total memory loss. Seems to me that the
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meaning always stays attached to the word and the word is always available
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to the sub. ga
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Kay! Tom & lori, your question? ga
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(12,Tom and lori) I was just wondering what Allysse meant when she said
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she had other safety features? Thank you GA
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Allysse? Care to answer? ga
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(12,:: Allysse ::) I had two friends who knew where I was and a large
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bank roll for a motel. My friends knew where I was and I had a check in
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time with them. I also had my two feet and rebox shoes *smile* GA
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Allysse (grin). We'll have to wrap up
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soon, folks. Anyone else wish to question or comment? ga
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(12,Brett S.) !
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Brett, please go ahead. ga
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(12,Brett S.) Thanks...just wanted to come down on the side of favoring
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the use of safe words: would not have it any other way. GA
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) That's interesting, Brett... may I ask why? ga
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(12,Brett S.) I hold that the relationship between dom and sub is both
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voluntary and one of mutual trust...how can such a bond exist without at
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least the provision for the sub to express herself when and if she is being
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taken beyond her limits? GA
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(12,Lisle) !
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Lisle, I suspect you wish to answer that.
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Please go ahead. ga
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(12,Lisle) Well...I think that simple communications verbal and noverbal
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communication will accomplish the same objective. I frequently stop a
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scene and ask how the subm issive is feeling and question carefully before
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I go on. That presumes that the trust is there and the submissive is
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going to be honest about his or her feelings. I also look at the damage
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if any and I will often stop before the limits have been reached. ga
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Brett, did you have a response? ga
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(12,Brett S.) Of course...
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(12,Lisle) <grin>
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(12,Brett S.) I have considerable respect for Lisle, but in this instance,
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I take exception. I have found that the use of the safe word actually
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heightens the enjoyment of the submissive. Somehow, knowing that she can
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free herself, if and when she wants to or needs to, allows for total
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freedom to express herself, to give in to her most basic emotional
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desire to please her Master. As a case in point, I have been with my
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present submissive for almost 9 months and she has yet to even approach
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using the safe word. I would not be without it. ga
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(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Okay, thanks, Brett. You should check the CO
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transcript when it's posted. You'll find much of this was addressed
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earlier. Our time is more than up! Thanks, everyone, for a good CO!!!
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Please join us next week when Lisle will be our guest discussing People
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Exchanging Power (PEP). And now, formal CO is....................
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OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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