390 lines
16 KiB
Plaintext
390 lines
16 KiB
Plaintext
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Sex and The Law
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(12,:: Will ::) Ladies and gentlemen and children of all ages it gives me
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great pleasure to introduce Sir Edward!!!... who will tonight be
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discussing D&S and the Law.
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(12,Sir Edward) 'lo (smiling modestly)
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(12,:: Will ::) Would you please tell everyone a little about yourself?
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(12,Sir Edward) Thank you, my good friend Will.
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(12,Sir Edward) This maybe reptitious to some of y
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Former Attorney General of
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Alaska. Superior Court Judge pro tem. Trial Lawer extraordinaire...
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Journalist, columnist - dom and Master of the spendid Kay #1... er,
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splendid! (Freudian typo there) Let the fun and frolic start, Will?
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(12,:: Will ::) By all means! Unless anyone has a question or comment to
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start us off, I'll ask a question. No? Alright. I'd like to know if you're
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aware of any cases in which anyone was prosecuted for practicing d&S.
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(12,Sir Edward) Well first, let us see if we can all agree on a definition
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of D & S. May I call on Chiun to offer one, Will? ok? Thanks.
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(12,:: Will ::) By all means. Chiun?
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(12,Chiun) No. (grin)
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(12,Sir Edward) Okay - How about Ms.*A*?
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(12,Chiun) Actually, I'd narrow your question to ask about "practicing"
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vs. "Practicing for MONEY" There are LOTS of the latter, but few of the
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former cases.
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(12,:: Will ::) go ahead, Angelique
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(12, :: Angelique ::) To offer a definition of d & s or dominance and
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submission, also known to some as bondage and discipline or sadomasochism
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--it comprises various activities, primarily, though not exclusively,
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sexual involving a power exchange between partners where one exercises
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sexual control and the other submits to the dominant's will. Many, if not
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most, of these activities fall outside the range of what most laws
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consider normal sexual practice. Does that suffice?
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(12,:: Will ::) Edward?
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(12,Sir Edward) I think that is excellent and I will accept it although we
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could spend the better part of the night quibbling over semantics. Just
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one slight dissent here: I do not consider D&S = B&D = S&M. In my book,
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consensual power transfer is synonymous with D & S. Bondage and Discipline
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are activities resorted to by the partners to D&S. S & M includes B&D but
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also other pain/pleasure activities.
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(12,Shiva) ?
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(12,:: Will ::) Yes, Shiva?
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(12,Shiva) Edward -- Is that a personal belief or a legal distinction ?
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(12,Chiun) !?
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(12,Sir Edward) My personal understanding - no legal definitions exist
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(12,:: Will ::) Chiun, you had a question and a comment?
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(12,Chiun) Yup. Since in practice if not in actual law the CONSENT is the
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issue (by which I mean that there ARE ancient blue laws against various
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sexual practices, but they're not enforced), how does the law DEAL with
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the issue of PROVING consent, as in cases of "after the fact" claims of
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rape/assault etc. etc. And does it ever come up in divorce cases, for
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example?
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(12,:: Will ::) Good questions, Chiun...Edward? Edward, did you get
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Chiun's question?
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(12,Sir Edward) Sorry I was dumped! Something about how do you prove
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consent after the fact?
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(12,:: Will ::) Chiun, would you mind repeating the whole?
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(12,Chiun) Okay. I'll give a hypothetical to express it differently: You,
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Her, Moonlit Night....fun, games, a bit of bubbly, a bit of bondage, a bit
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of sex and spanking... And two weeks later when you tell her its over, she
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runs to the police with her still-red welts and cries rape/torture/
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assault, whatever. What the HELL do you do? And how does the automatic
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Bias of police/courts against "sickos" like you/us work against you?
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(12,Sir Edward) Okay. Need more facts. Had you just met her? If so, you
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are a fool to give her red welts that last two weeks, without a written
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consent. If you had an ongoing relationship, but no slave contract, you
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can prove consent by circumstantial evidence -old photos, letters,
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testimony of mutual friends.
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(12,:: Will ::) Edward, would you advise getting written consent before
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indulging?
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(12,Sir Edward) If you are going to beat the h*** out of her .. you'd
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better! If you are just going to give her a good spanking and
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turn her pretty little a*s shocking pink - probably no problem.
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(12,:: Will ::) Hmmmm! Lisle, you had a comment?
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(12,Shiva) ?
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(12,Lisle) Case in DC involving a man who did much as Chiun described--she
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ran out of the apt stark naked.
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(12,Sir Edward) And?
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(12,Lisle) Showed her welts to the neighors, got photos, and went to
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court. She won the assault case even though the guy argued consent.
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(12,Sir Edward) You're in trouble, friend. Pick your subs more carefully.
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(12,Lisle) Not I.
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(12,Sir Edward) I know. Only kidding!
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(12,Lisle) I always get written consent <grin>
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(12,Sir Edward) Written consent is fine - but not foolproof. She can
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always say THAT was coerced.
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(12,CHIUN) !!!!!?
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(12,Lisle) Not the way I do it
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(12,:: Will ::) Chiun, you had a question?
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(12,CHIUN) Yup. Come on now gang...let's get serious. How many people here
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have EVER found it romantic, enjoyable, or even POSSIBlE to say, just
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before beginning to play, "Oh, by the way, would you sign this consent
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form, dear?" In the REAL world, this does NOT happen...but being accused
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falsely does.
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(12,Sir Edward) Of course not. But then I don't whip a girl on our first
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date, either.
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(12,:: Will ::) Excuse me: would everyone please end their comments with
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GA (for Go Ahead) so that we don't have overlap? Thanks. Shiva, you had a
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question?
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(12,Shiva) Since the areas we are discussing deal with power, how do you
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prove consent? Even with writing you can say it was while coereced or
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under duress by the nature of the activity. GA
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(12,Sir Edward) Shiva, that's the very point I made. There is no
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foolproof legal protection. You pick your partner carefully; you respect
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limits and you do the best you can with building your case if the
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relationship gets out of hand. GA
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(12,Shiva) !?
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(12,:: Will ::) Lisle, I see you're next... what was your question? GA
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(12,Lisle) My understanding of the law on assault and battery is that
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consent is not needed if the authorities want to press the case. Is that
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true? GA
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(12,Sir Edward) Consent IS a defense, whether the sub prosecutes a civil
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claim or the State prosecutes. GA
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(12,:: Will ::) Angelique, your question? GA
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(12, :: Angelique ::) Edward, I was wondering if you're familiar with any
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of the cases that have come up in the recent past. For example, Marquise
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Marie was busted for practicing d&s at home and a number of clubs/bulletin
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boards/porno producers have been busted. Do you know whether there's been
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more of a trend towards harrassing d&s. And if so, why? ga
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(12,DAN) !
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(12,Sir Edward) Well, they have always hassled commercial establishments
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and Chiun is right - cops hate s&m - because so many of them are overtly
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or subconsciously sadistic. ga
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(12,Lisle) !
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(12,:: Will ::) Shiva, you had a question and comment? GA
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(12,Shiva) I agree with choosing your partners wisely. Then are we to
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understand that what the law prosecutes is not D/s but rather assault,
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battery, mental duress etc etc. GA
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(12,Sir Edward) Correct, Shiva. There is no specific law that I know of
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that proscribes any d&s activities only assault, prostitution, lewd and
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lascivious conduct etc. ga
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(12,:: Will ::) Chiun, I have you down for five comments and a
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question...go ahead. GA
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(12,Chiun) Okay....now then: Marquise Marie was busted on Prostitution.
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She was abused, yes, and her home wrecked, and the charge may or may not
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stick, but prostitution, NOT d/s, was the charge. NO porn producer has EVER
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been busted for d/s. NEVER. Busts have been for "obscenity", and, more
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recently, for using underage folks. To my knowledge (and it's amazingly
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extensive), the ONLY kind of charge vs. folks for doing anything having to
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do with d/s has been assault/daterape/etc, and even THEN, its NOT
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"Malicious D/S", its another legal charge. Therefore: My questions have
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not to do with the "letter' of law, since it doesn't exist where we're
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concerned, thank goodness. They have to do with prejudice/abuse/agressive
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prosecution of us BECAUSE of we do what we do, and because judges/
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da's/police think its particularly "sick". How do we protect ourselves,
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Ed? (I think that must be 5 comments and a question) (grin) GA
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(12,Sir Edward) No.1 - Professional doms and producers of substantial
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amounts of porn are at the highest risk. Private practitioners of D/s in
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stable relationships have really nothing to worry about. As far as
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protecting pros - that's a long story. I have advised many. Written
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consents. Signed statements "I am not a law enforcement officer etc.,
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audiotape recordings of sessions, etc. ga
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(12,:: Will ::) Dan, I believe you're next. GA
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(12,Joel & Allysse) ?
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(12,DAN) JUST A COUPLE COMMENTS--Marquise Marie was busted because she was
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dumb enough to have a written price list that included explicit sex acts
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in addition to d and s and the convictions of the porn producers for
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pandering have been reversed...paying people to have sex in a movie is not
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necessarily being a pimp ga
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(12,:: Will ::) Joel and Allysse?
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(12,Joel & Allysse) Recently I read of a case in CA of a sub who reported
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to the emergency ward for help with some deep bruises. This resulted in
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police intervention despite her telling the officers it was part of a
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voluntary act. Is this standard? Any ideas of how we can seek MD help
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without prosecution if needed ? GA
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(12,Sir Edward) Yes, the police will probably intervene in such cases and
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probably should. Personally, I am opposed to such severe activities, but I
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realize that some folks crave this kind of extreme treatment. The only way
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to avoid police intervention in such a case would be a sympathetic
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physician. ga
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(12,:: Will ::) Shiva, you had a question? GA
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(12,Shiva) In some therapy sessions D/s has arisen as a topic: is the
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encouragment of that legal ? ga
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(12,Sir Edward) Since D/s is not illegal, "encouraging" it is not illegal
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either. Besides there is patient/therapist confidentiality. Please
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understand again, none of these activities between private, consenting
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adults are illegal or can get you in trouble - unless someone turns on you
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later. And there are ways to guard against that. We must also understand
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that D/s like many other legitimate activities has its darker side. E.g.
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the Steinberg case in NY. GA
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(12,:: Will ::) Lisle, you had a comment? GA
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(12,Lisle) Yes. I have been told that the state of NC prohibits any S&M
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activity between consenting adults and the state of Virginia prohibits any
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form of bondage, so too MD and DC. Are you aware of those laws. GA
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(12,Sir Edward) No, I am not aware of the laws in some of these more
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benighted jurisdictions. But it really makes no difference - if they can
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catch you, they can always fashion some charge. The point is what you do
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in your private bedroom usually does not come to the attention of the
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police or da - unless they are out to get you for political reasons. ga
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(12,:: Will ::) Angelique? GA
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(12, :: Angelique ::) Two questions. First: Edward, at least once or
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twice a year I hear a rumor that the FCC or some other agency is
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monitoring computer networks such as CIS for pornography and that the Feds
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are anxious to make a test case. Is there any truth to such rumors or are
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they merely paranoia...and if true, should the Feds crack down what laws
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would apply that might make us vulnerable? <this is q #1> ga
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(12,Sir Edward) As to whether it is happening... your guess is as good as
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mine. It would not surprise me, however, in the present climate.
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(12,Lisle) !
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(12,Sir Edward) As to what they can do - that is really a question for an
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FCC specialist - which I am not.
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(12,Lisle) May I take that one on?
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(12,Sir Edward) My guess is they probably could, particularly if telephone
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lines, satellites or broadcast facilities are used. Also, it would only
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take one turncoat or undercover subscriber to cause trouble. ga
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(12, :: Angelique ::) I'd like to know what Lisle knows.
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(12,:: Will ::) Lisle, Angelique is deferring her question in favor of
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your comment. Please go ahead. GA
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(12,Lisle) mail has the protection of or rather equal to US mail and
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cannot be monitored or intercepted and used as evidence except in the case
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of national security. Thus as long as the message originates within the
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states and stays within the states no federal agency may monitor a board
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or open communications such as the messages . To date the only
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thing the feds are concerned about is anything which might portray acts
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involving underage people. As to this kind of interactive communications
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that we are engaged in now the technical capability of even the federal
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govt could not handle all the data that is flying thru the air right now
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.... It is impossible! ga
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(12,:: Will ::) Please go ahead, Edward... and Angelique, ask your second
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question when he has finished, please. GA
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(12,Sir Edward) Thank you, Lisle. That was clear and concise. I might add
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that nothing we say here to night could expose anyone to risk of any
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kind, even if they could monitor. ga
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(12, :: Angelique ::) Ok: question #2, then....Edward, as a writer I enjoy
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writing erotica but worry about whether, in trying to sell it (either to
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mags or via the mails) I might not be exposing myself to legal risk. I've
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heard that postal clerks periodically answer ads in d&s magazines and then
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bust those that use the mails for distribution of pornographic materials.
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Shall I assume therefore that such a venue is legally risky for me? ga
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(12,Frank) ?
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(12,Sir Edward) That's a very gray area. I would think your MSs are safe,
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even if they sizzle (may I read one sometime? Just LEGAL interest/grin)...
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on the other hand a publisher might incur greater risk IF the material is
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adjudged "obscene." My own experience as an attorney for a publisher and
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producer of B&D mags and videos - the feds dont bother with you if you are
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not too big, stay away from youngsters or animals, and don't show too much
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by way of genitalia or genital contact ga
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(12,:: Will ::) Frank, you had a question? GA
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(12,Frank) In the example Angelique described, if the magazine was not
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distributed by mail in the first place would it not be a form of
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entrapment? ga
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(12,Sir Edward) No. Entrapment only works as a defense if the idea of the
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"crime" was planted or originated by the law enforcement officers. Where
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you have a commercial operation to begin with the law of entapment would
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not apply - assuming there was a crime committed. ga
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(12,:: Will ::) Lisle? GA
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(12, Lisle) On entrapment...I heard of a case in Florida where the
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respondent answered an ad for a video and was sent by federal agents a
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video which was known by the federal agents to be kiddie porn ...in that
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the actresses were underage .... is that entrapment? His lawyer was M.
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Belli by the way and he lost the case. ga
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(12,Sir Edward) Entrapment of whom? And for what crime? ga
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(12,Lisle) The defendant for possession of kiddie porn--it was not
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advertised as kiddie porn however. GA
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(12,Sir Edward) I never thought Mel was a great criminal defense lawyer ga
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(12,Lisle) <smile>
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(12,Sir Edward) What kind of video did the fellow send for? If he asked
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for kiddie porn and got kiddie porn it was not entrapment - even if the
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agents sent a substitute tape. ga
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(12,Lisle) He did not ask for kiddie porn ga
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(12,:: Will ::) People, our time is up. I want to thank Sir Edward for a
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very informative and fascinating CO and all those who had such excellent
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questions and comments.
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(12,Joel & Allysse) Thanks SE
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(12,:: Will ::) The formal rules are off... CO has officially ended.
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(12,Shiva) Thank you Edward, Will.
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(12,Sir Edward) Hey, I love to play with this splendid group! Love and
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kisses!
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(12,Lisle) Thanks Edward
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(12, :: Angelique ::) Deepest thanks, Edward!
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(12,Sir Edward) Welcome!!!
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(12,Stoney) My compliments, SE
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(12,Joel & Allysse) <=== Can I kiss Ally now ???
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(12,:: Will ::) Kiss away, Joel! (Grin)
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(12,Joel & Allysse) Folks, I am off to find new legal frontiers in the
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D/s battle...SE, should I set up a contigency fee ??
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