420 lines
18 KiB
Plaintext
420 lines
18 KiB
Plaintext
Anarchism in Glasgow
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Part 2 Charlie Baird Snr, Mollie Baird, John Taylor Caldwell,
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Babs Raeside, Jimmy Raeside, 14/8/87
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In August 1987 the Raesides, who had been living in Australia for
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many years, returned to Glasgow for a visit. This provided a rare
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opportunity to bring together some surviving members of anarchist
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groups in Glasgow during the 1940s for a public discussion on the
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history of that movement and the lesson which can be learned.
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JTC: What did you think of Eddie Shaw as a speaker?
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CB: Well, I didn't agree with his type of propaganda. He could
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draw a crowd; he could hold a meeting, but you always got the
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feeling that Eddie was speaking for Eddie and his distinctive
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propaganda was different from Jimmy's. Jimmy was a very capable
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speaker The difference was that Shaw's type of propaganda and
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perspective was that Shaw pandered to an audience, he
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commiserated to them in their misery and all the rest of it. You
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could see blokes bring their wives up to hear him. Raeside sent
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them away thinking - this was the difference. I didn't agree with
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Shaw - I told him that at the time.
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MB: The apprentices strike: now, we had about a dozen
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apprentices at the time...
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Q: When was this, Mollie, '44?
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MB: '45 I would say.
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JR: They started coming in before that - Roy Johnston and that -
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that was before...
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MB: That's right. They were holding meetings down at Clydeside,
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like at...
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JR: John Browns Yarrows, right along the Clydeside...
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MB: ...and these young apprentices were getting interested. Then
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the apprentices strike - and we had about a dozen young
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apprentices coming in - Bobby Lynn was one of them, and a big
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fellow - Willie Johnston - not that he was much of an anarchist,
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he stood for Lord Provost of Clydebank before he finished up. The
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boys were really keen, Spain had just finished and they were
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still interested in Spain. Johnston had a conference that Sunday
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and, just to give you an insight into Shaw: if you could have got
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Chic Murray, the comedian, he would have been just about as good.
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Charlie got this boy Johnston to go up on the platform, he was
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doing quite well, he said: well, I'm not a speaker, but Charlie
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said: We'll help you if you get into difficulties. The boy had a
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marvellous meeting and the other apprentices were asking
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questions, and he even did quite well in answering these
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questions. The boy was holding their attention, but Eddie said:
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You know, they're only holding on waiting for me. The man's head
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was that size!
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JTC: He was a forerunner of Billy Connolly.
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MB: Eddie was in America for a few years - he was a
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fender-bender. He wouldn't work for a boss, he would only do for
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the different garages which would employ him. His wife used to
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say, come on in Eddie when he was standing watching the suckers
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(and he said "suckers" from the platform!) putting in the hours.
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Now you know you've got to do something to get money but...
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CB: That was the debit side of Eddie Shaw, but there's another
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side of him. He was an asset of the movement, I recognised that.
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I didn't agree completely with the type of propaganda - he was
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comical, funny, entertaining, a carefree type of person. There
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was a place in the movement for him, he was an asset. Mollie gave
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you another side of him, but then we could live with that, it
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wasn't doing the movement any harm. Except that he was a
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personality with most of the other members, and this is one of
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the lessons to learn from anarchist groups who broke up and
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disappeared. We have to ask ourselves the question: why? what
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happened? If we don't learn from them, it's worse. I'd suggest to
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young anarchists today to consider these aspects of the problem.
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I'd say the responsibility to prevent these splits is to be
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vigilant about personalities and see that no-one constructs power
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from the group; once that happens that's the beginning of the end
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for the group. We may have mentioned certain comrades, but you
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have to understand I still liked Shaw, in spite of all the thing
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we've said about him. Leech I couldn't like - some people excused
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him by saying he was naive - he was naive but he was dangerous.
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He contributed most to the split within the group by his
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activities.
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During the war
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Q: What may amaze many people sitting here is that this was all
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happening in the middle of the Second World War, which was meant
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to be mass united patriotism united everyone against the common
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foe. Here we're getting a picture that in Glasgow it was a bit
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different. Maybe we haven't talked about the industrial front, as
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well, the opposition to the CP collaborating with the bosses.
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MB: Yes, that certainly did happen.
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JR: I understand that at that time when the CP in New York were
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discussing it, one bloke went to the toilet and when he came back
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the position of the group had changed!
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JTC: One I can tell you intimately about was that Harry McShane
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was due to go down to Brunswick St to speak on a Sunday morning.
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He got his orders to change completely and call the war a
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people's war, a patriotic war, a war against fascism, and he
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didn't know where he was - he had to read it. He only spoke about
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20 minutes, so that he could report back to the party that he had
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held the meeting as directed. They did such a somersault. But
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then he (CB) was going into more theoretical stuff... The
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difficulty is that in the anarchist movement there's always lack
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of definition: get 3 anarchists together and they'll give you 30
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definitions of what anarchism is, because by its very nature it's
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indefinable because it's without authority. Therefore you have
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different kinds of anarchism. Talking of personalities and
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clashes within the movement: Bakunin and Marx destroyed the 1st
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International between them and although Proudhon was dead, his
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influence was so great that Marx moved the centre of the
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International movement from France to Germany, in which it became
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connected with Kautsky and took on Social Democratic character,
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which was later reflected in the ILP and the Labour Party...
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The movement has been riddled with dissention the whole time,
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with personalities - we've just got to contend against that, try
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to clear your way through that and see what you can find solid.
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Now there's many different schools of anarchism. Guy used to say
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there were 7, but two which seem to come to the fore now and
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again were anarchism and egotism, that is Max Stirner's "Ego and
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His Own" in which an anarchist was an individual and a
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multiplicity of anarchists were a concourse of individuals, and
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these individuals had to find some common denominator in running
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society, but these individuals were all persons in their own
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right. Now, the Kropotkinite anarchists were anarchist-communists
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- in simplistic terms, an ego is not a person bounded by his skin
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from head to toe, an ego is a ramification of all his
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associations... and his associations go back beyond his present
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time, beyond your 20 years away back into the past, so that we
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inherit much of our ego, much of our responsibility. Therefore a
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centre of our egoism should be a concept of the community. He
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tried to prove this was a predominating feature in biology from
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the beginning of time and one of the causes of evolution - not
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"nature red in tooth and claw" as Darwin had said and the
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capitalists were now using... That's two different clashes you
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had. You can, when you join a movement, have at the back of your
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head "I am but an integral part of a community. What I do has to
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be related to the advantage of a community. Mixed with other
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people I can develop what's inside myself, my own personality,
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that's my anarchy"... You do not accept standardised authority
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for its own sake...
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That's two different types of anarchism. Bakunin had a slightly
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different one...
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Egoism and Mutual Aid
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Q: Can we explore the situation in the 1940s with these three
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different movements: Guy Aldred's USM, the Anarchist Group,
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Willie MacDougall's group. Did people get on? Was there mutual
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aid in relation to the anti-war movement, etc?
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JTC: No, there wasn't mutual aid.
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JR: There was indeed, there was a great deal of mutual aid.
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JTC: Well, we both look from different aspects.
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CB: As a matter of fact, in the Glasgow group, it was split too.
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This didn't contribute to the ultimate split, but the group was
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split over the question of mutual aid and the ego. Eddie Shaw was
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an egoist; he was a Max Stirner man, and it was a bible with him,
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he carried it in his pocket every day and crusaded with it. On
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the other hand there was Jimmy Dick who was a Kropotkin man It
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became so tedious that we had a debate on it. So Shaw and Jimmy
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Dick put their cases and we were still split. In fact from my own
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point of view and others too, mutual aid and the ego weren't
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antagonistic at all, they were complementary. First of all take
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the ego: a herd of buffalo - why do they herd together? For the
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maximum of safety - that's mutual aid. It comes from the self,
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the ego, the individual. So there's no conflict between the ego
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and mutual aid in that respect, and that was pointed out to Jimmy
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Dick and Eddie Shaw and we heard no more about it.
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JTC: George Woodcock in his study of anarchism refers to the
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Glasgow anarchists as a small group who are still Stirnerites,
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believing in Egoism. Now, I know that Eddie Shaw believed that,
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he once had quite a long talk with me, but he was a crude
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Stirnerite. He said to me "I believe in Number One - Get what you
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can out of it" And he said of fixing his cars: You see the one
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that's going to give you the most, and hang on to him. That was
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his concept.
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CB: He didn't relate it to the group. Conscious Stirnerites,
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through self-interest, would identify their safety in numbers and
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that we can achieve more in numbers than as an individual...
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JR: One point regarding that, this attitude towards the ego. I
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believe (with Bertrand Russell) that the most we can hope from
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the individual in our society is intelligent self-interest, and
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if he is intelligent he'll see that cooperation is going to be a
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great deal better than confrontation.
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JTC: That's asking too much. The intelligent self-interest of
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most people means getting themselves and their family on...
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JR: Well, it's hardly very intelligent then, is it?
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JTC: Mrs Thatcher in one of her last speeches (you must listen
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to Mrs Thatcher, she's a genius of mediocrity) said that a person
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should do the best for themselves and get the best they could out
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of society and pass it on to their son. She said that is the
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deepest morality. That's not the deepest morality.
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JR: I believe literally in what you just said she said. Because
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I don't think she meant it the way you meant it. That you should
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screw everyone else - that's hardly intelligent self-interest. I
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think the norm of intelligence doesn't vary very much and we're
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all products of our environment, which includes even our
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parentage and our upbringing.
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JTC: No, I'd say the fact of economism, trade unionism gathers
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strength in countries before anarchism does proves that people re
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out for what they can get. That has been the bugbear of
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socialism.
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JR: The people who make a living from trade-unionism are very
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much to the fore in persuading people to accept that outlook.
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JTC: Very few strikes are entirely idealistic. They're about 3p
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more because the labourers got a rise: they're differentials.
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Strikes
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Q: What about the strikes in 1944: the apprentices, the strikes
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in Lanarkshire, etc?
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MB: What was the apprentices strike about in 1944?
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CB: Wages.
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JTC: They were still getting 8/- a week and with the war there
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was inflation of wages, but the boys weren't getting it.
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Q: And fighting for their rights?
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MB: Plus the fact that boys who were not fully-fledged
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journeymen were doing men's work...
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JTC: That's true. They were making the fourth year apprentices
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do men's work.
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MB: And sending an apprentice along with an apprentice.
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Q: What about the printing press question? You've talked about
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the problems with Freedom Press in London. Guy Aldred had his own
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printing press, but it was the one time there was a really
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strong anarchist group in Glasgow - did you never think of doing
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your own paper?
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MB: We did.
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CB: After the split we did produce a paper, "Direct Action" but
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it was mostly industrial.
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JTC: Willie MacDougall did a paper? Who produced "Advance" and
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"Solidarity"?
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MB: Willie MacDougall did his own "Solidarity" but "Direct
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Action" was another wee printer, an alternative to...
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CB: While that issue was going on about more industrial news in
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"War Commentary", I suggested to the Glasgow Group, that we had
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the money and could produce an organ of our own, quite a
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substantial thing too, but, of course, Shaw and Leech sabotaged
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that too. But with the benefit of hindsight, as Mollie said
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earlier on, the majority weren't anarchists, just camp-followers
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suffering from a leadership complex.
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MB: We had one good wee Irish guy, wee Reilly, he had a huge
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meeting one Sunday in Princes St, and was doing quite well and
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got very excited and said "If you want a leader I'll lead you!"
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The majority did require a leader.
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JTC: What was the name of the old fleapit cinema you (JR) used
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to fill every Sunday in Partick?
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JR: No, the only one was the Cosmo in Rose St.
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MB: Oh, the Grove.
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Q: Did the women play a distinctive role in those days?
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MB: No, women play a part, they're merely a part. I'm against
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all this gay movements and black movements and womens movements.
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If you're an anarchist, you're an anarchist and it doesn't matter
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what section of them you are. If you start splitting them into
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groups you're going to have less.
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JR: Babs was minutes secretary...
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BR: And also made tea!
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Social Life
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Q: What social events were organised besides the business
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meetings?
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MB: Well, they had dances, we had groups playing...
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CB: Drinking sprees...
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MB: Even in Guy's...
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JTC: You look at "The Spur" and you'll see adverts for days in
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the Waverley, the paddle-steamer. It cost about 2/6 for the whole
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day. We did a lot of these things. Then you had fighting things
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too... Other socialist groups, the cycling club...
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MB: The Clarion Club, that did a marvellous job, but the
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Communists bust that up. The Clarion rooms were up in Wellington
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St. You didn't have to be in a group at all; they had tea rooms,
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all these things...
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JTC: Snooker...
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MB: That's right and social evenings, which all helped to defray
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expenses. The Clarion Club covered a long period. And they had
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camping facilities out in Carbeth. The CP went in and started to
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run it too. By the time they were done, there was no group.
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JTC: But also the deterioration in social standards helped. The
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Clarion had a place in Queens Crescent, that was their club, but
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in no time the billiard balls were pinched the tablecloths were
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ripped - all sorts of things which never happened before the war.
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Things were sabotaged, graffiti on the lavatory walls; that never
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happened before the war.
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MB: Even during the war.
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JTC: A general deterioration of social standards which happened
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at the end of the war, because the war broke down inhibitions.
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Young fellows of 18 or 19 were smashing windows in Germany and
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pinching things, they carried that back with them. They didn't
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break them down in a revolutionary sense, where you did things
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because you were an anarchist or because you were showing you
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were opposed to authority, you did it for sheer irresponsibility.
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All the framework of society had been shattered and that's how it
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started and it helped destroy the Clarion.
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MB: They didn't have a watch committee as such. But it was
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yours, so everyone looked after it. It was a workers' thing..
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Parents could let very young children go cycling with them,
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because the strongest waited for the weaker... there was none of
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this out-to-win. In the rooms it was the same, you just saw that
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the rooms were looked after.
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JTC: They also had caravans pulled by horses from village to
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village...
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Q: Were the socialist sunday schools connected to the Clarion
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Clubs?
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MB: No. I was taken very young to the APCF, I knew about the
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rooms in Clarenden St, and also about Bakunin House. Tom Anderson
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ran a Socialist Sunday School. They met..
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JTC: They met in Methven St in Govan but there may have been
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other places...
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MB: Originally in Bakunin House, merely a let. That was my
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first visit, I was 5 or 6 at the time. They moved away then, and
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it was too far for us to travel from the north of Glasgow. The
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College Sunday School was predominantly ILP, not because the ILP
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ran it. There was a bond between even-pink revolutionaries at
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that time, that you gathered together. We went to the College
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Socialist Sunday School. It started down at College St and went
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from that. Again, it burst up - there's no socialist Sunday
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School.
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Q: What do you think caused the lull in anarchism after the
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Second World War? And what do you think of the upsurge in
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militant anarchism?
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CB: There's always been a continuation of splits. Anarchist
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movements have drifted away and disappeared, but there's always
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another crops up again. Right from the beginning of the anarchist
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movement, as Caldy described. There will always be an anarchist
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movement in Britain now. We've got to try to assess just what
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happened to those movements which disappeared. They didn't die a
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natural death. That's what I was trying to get at tonight. As
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long as we allow people to dominate within groups there will be
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splits. And if we are anarchists, we shouldn't allow them,
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because that's one of the principles of anarchism.
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JTC: I must have been at thousands of group meetings and always
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a personality appears, and when it comes to voting, they want to
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see how he's going to vote, and you get the votes swung by a
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person who has the power of speech rather than by pure logic.
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CB: I can recognise that Raeside was a great speaker and can
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hold an audience for hours; I can recognise that Guy was a great
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speaker, but I never looked up to them, never treated them as
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personalities, though they had charisma or anything like that. If
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I did, I'd know I was suffering from an inferiority complex. No
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anarchist should suffer from something like that.
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[Tape ends here]
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Transcribed in November 1993 from a not-always-clear cassette
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tape.
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Audio copies can be obtained by contacting Scottish Anarchist
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Part 1 of this interview is contained in issue 1 of Scottish
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Anarchist.
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