textfiles/phreak/PHREAKING/tap.int

(:   {Interview's & Conversations}    :)
:)   {with famous phreaks/hackers}    (:
(:         by The Infiltrator         :)

From the WHAT IS THIS AND WHO ARE YOU department.

This is a series of files about conversations I have had with some of the 
better known phreaks and hackers in the NY area, specifically those that I met
at TAP. I was a regular at TAP until everyone but the "950 Kode Kids", Richard
and Agent 6 left. Richard for those uneducated enough to not know, is Chesire
Cat, and 6 and a group of 60's throwbacks are the new regulars. The old group
has more or less become extinct. (Chesire and 6 were also the old group, but
the people who left are the ones who counted, and I used to go there to listen
to. Now I don't go anymore eithr.) TAP used to be the publication and the Fri.
night meetings. For the last 2 years its been just the meetings, since the
newsletter stopped being published. 

During those 2 years there have been a small group of individuals who I thought
to be the most interesting to talk to at the time. Central among those: Tuc (on
the few occasions he did show up there),  Lord Digital and Paul Maud'dib. I
also met a large number of losers with large opinions of themselves. Central
among those: Broadway Hacker (I think, the only person I really learned to
consistantly disklike at TAP while he was there.), The Surge (on his few guest
appearances.), MadMan, Criminal Element, The Phantom and others.
People that passed through for a day or two included:
Big Brother : Thought himself very funny, nobody spoke with him and I guess
feeling embarassed, he left after about 2 hours of talking to the only person
who came with him.
BIOC Agent 003 : Very businesslike, carries a briefcase filled with 500 xerox
copies of everything, which he freely hands out. Altogether a nice guy, if a
bit weird.
Sharp Razor : Typical LOD members, heavily opinionated about everyone and 
everything in the world, mostly offensive to people there, unless they were
some of the previously mentioned regulars, who he would kiss up to, only to
call them losers the moment they left the table.
King Blotto : He seemed like a nice person who knew what he was talking about,
fit right into greenwich village since he came sporting multi-colored hair and
a bicycle chain for a belt. Have to wonder what people think of him back in the
midwest.
The 950 kode kids : This group includes, The Ninja NYC, Ginn Fizz, The Jackel,
and a grouping of others that come and go.
And a large group of people I refer to as "LODITES in training", typically 14-
21 yr olds carrying around 50 lbs of manuals they promptly turned over to the
cheif LODdy present. These included: X-Man, The Knipper, Doctor Who (who now
hates LOD i think.) and other less noticables.

Who am I? I'm a 19 year old Hunter College student, who started attending the
weekly meetings to learn how to make free phone calls or "be a phreak" and
learned what being a "real phreak" was all about during my 2 years there. This
is just a text file from some of my notes, the "interviews" when they appear
were done with a tape recoder (walkman) I had turned on and hooked to a mic 
under my collar. The the people being recorded had no knowledge of this fact.
All the quotes are word for word reproductions of what was said. There is no
professional formatting, or fancy text graphics, just some notes slapped 
together on what I have heard along with my comments. I also would not consider
any of the mentioned peolpe my friends, rather people I grew to know and have 
good conversations with over the Friday nights. You cannot call someone your
friend if you essentially know nothing about them and are basically untrusted.

Conversation with Chesire Catalyst (Held at TAP.)
{Chesire is the ex-editor and publisher of TAP.}
(Me: is what i said, An: is what he answered, this is usually about 5 minutes
into a otherwise "normal" conversation. Richard is about 6' tall, black hair &
beard, look like he should have been a truck driver instead of a phreak.)

ME: So is there any chance of TAP coming back together?
AN: Not by me, I don't have the time, or the funds. It never made me any money
    it was more of a public service that I can't afford to do anymore.
ME: Wasn't someone else supposed to take it over?
AN: Yes, Tuc was going to take it, but that's on hold right now, it doesn't
    really look like it's going to happen though. With 2600 gone also, there is
    nothing there to take the space of TAP at the present time.
ME: So it looks as if TAP has died after all these years?
AN: Well TAP isn't that easy to kill! I'm sure it will re-surface in one form
    or another sometime in the next decade.
ME: Oh good, I have something to look forward to in the 90's. What about you?
    Do you still phreak or what do you do for a living now?
AN: Oh no, I was much to closely related with the magazine to do any of that
    any more. I give lectures on security and appear on talk shows and seminars
    that concern our hobby. I'm also a technical consultant for various firms.
ME: Ok, thanks.

Convo with Tuc: (Held at TAP)
{Tuc is a phone phreak/hacker I have taked to on and off over the last 2 years
 he has matured from a fat over-exertive person, into a normal human being who
 is nice to talk to.}
(Tuc is about 6'1", used to be fat but has thinned out in the last year, black
hair, no beard, about 20 I'd guesstimate, I never asked him.)

ME: You look good, lost a lot of weight.
AN: Thanks, I gained a lot of it in college on the junk food.
ME: How'd you manage to lose it?
AN: Took up jogging and lost it again.
ME: Ok, So what is happening with Fargo 4a now?
AN: We plan to go on a member drive and regroup.
ME: Do you actually have any hopes of it coming together?
AN: Well it's more of just something to do for fun, it won't be that hard to
    get into the club at this time.
ME: What do you think of the current phreak world compared to the one of say
    2 years ago?
AN: Well everyone hates everyone now, there is no unity, there is only endless
    war and threats and disorganazation. Mostly there are people who don't want
    to learn anything, but only wish to join a large group and spend the rest
    of their time signing it under their handle.
ME: Like LOD
AN: Like LOD
ME: Are you a member of LOD?
AN: No, I'm not and never will be.
ME: What do you think of LOD?
AN: I really can't say anything about that, but I'm not a member, that should
    speak for something.
ME: Ok, I understand. Who else here do you consider to be any good?
AN: Well there is Paul and LD, that's about it, if you mean people in our own
    underground. They (Meaning richard, agent 6, and others) are also very good
    in certain areas and know a lot. 
{At "they" he meant chesire cat and others. Paul and LD refer to Paul Maud'dib
 and Lord Digital}
ME: Well thank's for your time

Convo with Lord Digital: {Held in the computer section of B.Dalton's on 15th
st. In NY, about 9 months after the last time I saw him at TAP. He has seemed
to also mature, from a "I'm god,  Fuck you" attitude, into a more easy going
human being.}
(Lord Digital is about 6'1", was pear shaped the last time I saw him, seems
to have lost a good 50 lbs. He has black hair, is the only person I have met
in my life who consistantly wears a tie and designer shirts. If you know what
Steve Jobs or Rob Lowe look like, you know what LD looks like.)

ME: Hey, almost didn't recognize you, lost a lot of weight.
AN: Hum, who're you?
ME: TAP remember?
AN: Oh right, Ok I remember you now.
ME: How'd you manage to lose so much weight so fast?
AN: Took up Shotokan.
ME: ? Karate?
AN: Yeah, subset thereof, more mind over mind/body control though.
ME: Oh, walk over fire and kill people and all that?
AN: Nooooooo, the kill people is just a sort of anti-thesis to acupuncture, 
    hurt instead of heal, etc. Just knowledge of where to hit and why. As
    for anything else, it's up to you to decide. Forget it.
ME: Subject dropped. Saw your story in Sundays businessweek, congratulations.
{One of his companies was profiled in a business section of a local paper, I
 know it's name because I brought a 1200 modem from him a year ago.}
AN: Aha, thanks. It's not a big deal, that paper isn't exactly the Times and
    the yearly growth was just normal. Only thing that turned them on was that
    we started it when I was 15 & he was 17. Sort of '2 local kids make big 
    bucks in computer enterprize!'.
ME: Well better then I'm doing. Speaking of that, have you seen all the loser
    files going around? Your name appears on 1 or 2 of them.
AN: Yeah I was shown one of them, only thing I recall was being pissed as
    having my role model listed as Donald Trump. The least they could have
    done was given me a decent person I supposedly worship, like Mark Rich.
ME: Who?
AN: Sigh, nevermind. Suffice to say, most of it are the delusions of some bored
    14 yr. old Loser. In order to know all this about everyone, I would guess
    one of Carl's idiot friends, or someone like Eric. I Don't know or care.
ME: Then it was correct?
AN: No, but the geographic locations were fairly accurate, so were a lot of
    things the typical rodent would not know. There were a lot of errors, but
    what it comes down to is; how does this cretin know anything about me to
    begin with? answer; he talks with someone I talk to. Probably Carl, but 
    who really gives a shit, I don't.
ME: Carl as in Criminal Element? Isn't he a loser?
AN: Yeah, CE, well I have no comment's as to what he may or may not know about
    phreaking, I am friends with Carl, it's not like Hi! CE!!?, This is LD!!!!
    got some cool info? If he knows something or not, doesn't really matter.
    He knows enough people that DO know what they're doing, that he doesn't
    need to know something if he doesn't care. So effectively speaking he has
    access to a large amount of information.
ME: And he doesn't?
AN: Talk to him about it, not me. Only thing that bothers me is the large loser
    ratio he speaks with. Wouldn't matter in itself, except these people turn
    around distort everything and write C000l Text philez about it.
ME: Like when you were busted and 'died' last year?
AN: Yeah, I've never been busted, nor have I died lately.
ME: Well I know from what people have told me that your father is well off, but
    is any of that in the file true? Do you make a lot of money?
AN: Well why would you care? I really don't have any comments about anything
    that links my personna to my real ventures. But let's put it this way, if
    you have 50k and saturate penny stocks that you know are going to go up,
    then you have to be brain dead to not make at least 500% of your investment
    every year. However this is all paper, if you liquidize then your broker
    gets a slice, taxes throw out half the rest and if you're legally a minor
    then even more gets chopped since your parents have to co-sign all that.
ME: I'm not familliar with all that, what about Blue Chip stock?
AN: That's something to use instead of a bank, IBM, WANG, are rock. Nothing
    they do will ever have any kind of substantial loss. AT&T more or less
    the same. NYNEX also became worth a lot more since diversiture.
ME: Ok, sorry to intrude, I'd really like to ask you about a subject that
    generates a lot of interest these days. Phantom Access. Is it real or what?
AN: Hahaha, swell. Yeah it's real.
ME: Care to elaborate?
AN: Ok, the name itself "Phantom Access", is now the registered trademark of a
    third party who thought it was nice and wanted exclusive rights to it. The
    name, not the programs. The programs are, if you can imagine something like
    a small Dbase III related to modem usage and file integration. These are 
    for the Apple with a Cat, there are a lot of versions, I don't really know
    who has what at this point, I basically told my friends that they are free
    to do whatever they want with them.
ME: Are there any other versions for other machines or what did you mean by lot
    of versions?
AN: Well mine uses mousetext, windows, 256K, clock, hard disk, 212 card and
    an optional 2400 modem. The simplest version uses 1 disk drive, 40 columns
    and a ][+ with 48k. There are versions for the Amiga, I was never involved
    with the Mac, I never had an interest in the machine, the programs for it
    were by someone else.
ME: Paul Maud'dib?
AN: No comment
ME: Ok, no problem. What exactly does it do? and why did you write it and why
    all the secrecy?
AN: Ok, I just thought of everything I might want a hacker to do. By hacker I
    mean in a global sense Telecom Expert System, not a code finder for Sprint.
    There was a small pre-processor I did that had about 50 commands added to
    basic, like tone generation, wait, test, else, endif, etc, states. Then I
    went ahead and did a full fledged hacker, it will literally hack anything
    ever devised. It's excellent and apparently no-one has ever thought of
    many of the functions. I mean just in the last year have audio-test hackers
    come out for the cat. We were doing this 4 years ago. The primary reason
    for some of the techniques in it, were to insure no high-profiles on 
    digital switching systems. Then I wrote an intelligent scanner that worked
    with the hackers, then an ascii hacker.
ME: Yes, sounds great. You might be interested, just lately there has been a 
    ascii hacker made by others. Hackamatic I think.
AN: Yeah I know, i've seen it. Actually ascii hackers have been out for
    a long time, just they aren't distributed. Originally I had planned some
    thing much like it, but made to work with the hackers & scanner, faster and
    less kludgey. But I talked about it with Paul, he just said Wrong, dumb
    move, use pattern matching, make it intelligent, not something slow and
    useless. At the time I was 15, I though Huffman code & godelization of
    text files were just swell and Unix was god. I was unfamilliar with any
    real AI techniqes or langauges. So I went out and read some of Knuth's
    books, learned lisp and some prolog, and about 2 weeks later came up with
    something much better.
ME: How good is Paul, really?
AN: That's a difficult question, in comparision to what you'd call phreaks or
    hackers, he is much better. But that's not saying much.
ME: How would you catagorize yourself?
AN: I wouldn't, I don't seek to be integrated into whatever structure they
    have set up.
ME: Ok, in comparison to their structures, how would you say you and Paul
    would fit it?
AN: Better then 99%, there is always the unknown 1% that someone might be doing
    something that would just blow me away. I doubt it, but it's possible and
    it's happened before. Also, I wouldn't catogarize myself with Paul, he has
    greater general knowledge of some fields that I don't. And visa versa, so
    it works out well. During the final writing of the hacker though, it was
    really helpful to be able to read 50 different things, see how to mix them
    into the 1 thing I needed, and then talk it over with him, usually I can
    come up with something he never thought of and he points out stupid moves
    on my part. And suggests improvments.
ME: Who are the 1% that impressed you?
AN: Nobody well known, usually just people I'd meet in obscure places, like
    some kid I met at an electronics store, who walked out and said, hey those
    look like parts for a blue box. I just started talking to him, and after
    a few minutes, got the impression that he was either totaly confused or
    lying. Then I found out his father is a SCC switchman. So I ended up with
    several feet of manuals, 100's of dialups for things in nyc, and gave him
    some cosmos manuals which he wanted. It ws very profitable from my end of
    it anyway.
ME: I always wondered were all that came from.
AN: ha, yeah, well you can trash from now until 1990, or you can just order the
    fucking things from AT&T, I'm on their mailing lists with a maildrop as a
    TIRM director. They just keep sending more and more junk.
ME: What did the SCC guy teach you about?
AN: Various things, and cleared up a lot of misconceptions about ANI and how
    it actually works, auto-verify, things like that, which I really didn't
    know the answers to. He had it as sort of a hobby as well, he was on some
    cosmos kick, and I helped him out, so he was grateful. He also had an apple
    and to most normal people, you mention free software, and they get this
    happy expression. Future 40 yr. old new wares kids being born.
ME: Speaking of that, what do you think of the pirate world? To my knowledge
    you are one of the only phreaks to ever be in any large pirate group.
{Apple Mafia}
AN: Well that wasn't through any real involement. I just happened to be friends
    with a lot of the people and at the time it was a new idea. (A group), so I
    said why not.
ME: What do you think of pirates? did you crack software?
AN: Hahahahaha, yeah dude, I crack the latest!. No, sorry, I don't mean to
    insult pirates, just I find it hard to take anyone involved in an endless
    cycle of getting new wares, in any kind of serious perspective. I mean Ok,
    when I first thought of all the software I could have for free, it was like
    being let loose in the vault of bank, or a 7 yr old in a toy store. Whether
    people admit it or not, they are new wares kids at first. But also being 
    realistic, you discover that 95% of all software is useless to you, ok it
    might be good for something, but why do *I* need it? the rest is just trash
    period. Then there's the 5% I use. I outgrew piracy in about 2 months, most
    normal people do as well. Or they become crackers and start cranking out
    the wares.
ME: What do you think of the crackers?
AN: It varies, I can understand being interested in programming and protection
    schemes, but to actually waste all that time on cracking garbage, just to
    get losers to idolize you is pathetic.
ME: Do you still talk to any of the pirates?
AN: Not really, the pirates I talked to are largely gone from the pirate world
    as I said, most people outgrow it. If you mean people who were pirates that
    I talk to, then there's Zero Page, Mr. Xerox, etc. I mean a LOT of people
    WERE pirates, but that doesn't really mean anything at this point, I WAS
    a pirate, everyone who has ever gotten software for free was/is a pirate.
ME: Ok, I mean people who are cracking right now, do you talk to any of them?
AN: Not really, most of them came into existance a very short time ago, And I
    have no reason to talk to them or associate with them.
ME: So you don't get new software anymore?
AN: Yeah I do, a friend of mine brings over a box ever week or so, usually it
    ends up as 20 blank sides, but sometimes there is something decent out in
    apple software. I mean I DO use AppleWorks and some new utilities. There's
    no reason to not use machines I allready own.
ME: Can you say who you still DO talk to?
AN: Well I suppose it doesn't really matter, Captain Avatar, who I think is now
    calling himself Skip Rooney, or some such name. Sigh.
ME: In other word's idiot's.
AN: No, not really, he's just someone who likes software, good for him, who am
    I to say that he shouldn't like it?
ME: True I guess, what about crackers?
AN: I think he does crack, I don't know/care. I also know Gadget Master.
ME: How did you meet him? People regard him as a big loser who mis-cracks wares
    that are copya.
AN: I don't know and as I've said, I really don't care, I first talked to him
    a few years ago when I was still aware of the pirate world, he started out
    in something like late '83 I think. He's ok as a person, I really couldn't
    care less if the new wares kids love him or hate him. As far as I know he
    does it for himself, not for the benefit of others. So what other people
    think of him is inconsequential.
ME: Where do you think the pirate world has gone lately, and about the sides
    forming in both worlds?
AN: Well as far as I'm told the pirate world has gone downhill a LOT, I don't
    know. As far as hatred, most phreaks regard pirates as lowlifes who have
    nothing to do with their time. Which is to an extent true. Pirates regard
    phreaks as code abusers and losers who cannot program. Which is also to
    an extent true, at least of the newer phreaks. It is really easy to
    become well known for having essentially no skills, it's like, what do you
    know? I know Tuc!. That's just keen, WHAT do you know? I just told you, I
    know Tuc, I even know where he lives, and am joining a new super elite
    board tomorrow! I'm cool!. Everything seems to be cyclical, building up
    to it's absolute zenith at late '83, with the ending of securityland and
    the original OSUNY. Everything thereonward has been less impressive then
    that which came before it, I mean Sherwood Forest (The original run by
    Magnetic Surfer {The TKOS board}) was good, Plovernet was good, LOD was
    good. But they still did not compare, everything usually disintegrated
    into people quoting manuals at each other and a bunch of "We're the
    eliteist people in the whole universe" patting each other on the back
    kind of messages on the club subs.
ME: So your saying no-one really knows that much?
AN: No, not at all, there are many competant people out there, but compared to
   just about any professional we didn't have that much knowledge. Most hackers
    have a basic understaning of more OS's then the average DP person will ever
    have to learn, but no concrete knowledge of how it works. Usually someone
    will specialize in 1 OS and the other people in the group will handle the
    others, so it works out more or less. But phreaking is different, OS's are
    easy to learn because there is a lot of easily accessible published doc-
    umentation available on it. Technical AT&T manuals usually constitute
    trade secrets, and are hard to get. Or WERE had to get, now I have almost
    infinite access. But I'm talking about the average phreak who knows what
    he is doing. As opposed to the average elite poser, who can quote every
    # to every "elite" 1 drive board in the univere, and every word of every
    file ever written backwards and forwards, yet fail to understand anything.
    The poser won't care about the knowledge, just how his name ranks in comp-
    arision with other elite posers.
ME: So what do you think of LOD and people like Blotto, I think that from some
    of the messages I've seen posted Mr. Xerox contends they are complete
    losers?
AN: Well I don't know, I'm not familliar with the group LOD or even if it
    exists anymore.
ME: What about Blotto? and blottoland, were you also on the LOD club board?
    I've heard that you also don't like Blotto?
AN: I don't even know Blotto, it's hard to dislike someone you have never
    spoken with. I have no idea as to his skill, but assume he is competant
    in whatever he is doing. 
ME: Do you KNOW ABOUT Blotto and newsweek? and what about the boards?
AN: I only know about Blotto through Paul, from what I know he is ok as a
    person, I know nothing of his skill or lack thereof. I was on LOD when
    it opened in March of '84, or April, whatever. I called a few times, then
    didn't call back for about 6 months, by then I think the # had changed
    3 times. I've seen the final LOD club only board, since Paul was still
    a member {Paul quit LOD}, and remote sysop of it, it wasn't impressive,
    but it wasn't bad either. The same for Blottoland. As for Newsweek, I
    don't know why he's being hassled about it, HE didn't have any say on
    anything as I recall. If the elite posers had reacted unlike idiot's
    for a change nothing would have happened, just another story. Instead of
    that they threatened his life, his wifes life, and the next week, boom
    prime time "hackers threaten life of Richard Sandza" The original article
    became a series of articles, ad infinitum. As for the other newsweek crap,
    I would sum it up as losers getting caught and trying to cash in on the
    media coverage. It's like "hey I'm lame, I just go busted, why not get on
    TV at least?". Hardly people who qualify as any kind of spokespeople for
    hackers or phreaks.
ME: What about the phreaks and pirates who appeared on TV also?
AN: If that's what you want, it's easy. Media people love you, I mean you
    know Mike {11 news reporter who shows up at TAP.}, you agree to appear
    on TV, next day, your on TV, and have 45 seconds to say anything you want
    to say, complete with shadowmask, voicemask, free lunch, rides, and a vhs
    of the show, and any other shows that you want. The only people he has been
    able to convince are the local code mongers, if you remember he asked to
    NOT have a shadow or voice mask, so his friends could see his face on TV.
    Gosh mom look!
ME: So what do you think of current boards and new phreaks? Also why are you
    no longer on boards? Oh yeah, also what was Metronet?
AN: Geez, lot's of questions, ok 1985 has been the year of the radical ultra
    elite private board with cool software and spinning cursors and filters,
    and users/sysops composed of idiots. EVERY loser in the world with 2 drives
    is putting up a elite private board. In a way it's amusing, but sad too.
    New phreaks usually start as inexperianced and move into the status of full
    time elite posers. Ask yourself this: why do people call boards? To gain
    knowledge, talk to their peers, ask questions of better phreaks and to form
    radical elite groups! Now as it stands, they will never find anything other
    then losers who claim to be something they are not. They believe that all
    knowledge is hidden in the elite g-sections of all the best boards. Which
    is of course bullshit, frequently the people who transcribed the manuals
    managed to fuck it up along the way, didn't even understand it themselves
    but just copied it word for word from somwhere. It's easy to run into a
    person somewhere and say something involving their latest file, and they
    will just look at you and ask what you're talking about. They wrote it yet
    dont' understand it, actually let me take they back, they copied it and
    fail to understand it. I no longer call boards because I have no reason
    to call them. There is nothing out there I need to learn, no-one I need to
    talk to, the only people I would talk to on boards, I call voice. So why
    call boards? Just for a good laugh maybe, that's about it.
ME: You're saying that no-one out there know's more then you? And what about
    metronet.
AN: No, not in the least, everyone knows more about a given subject that is
    their specialty then someone else does. But what it comes down to, is
    that if I DID want to learn something, I would not call a board or any
    thing of the sort. I would get a manual on it and learn it. End of story.
    If at the point I wanted some additional tips, I'd call a friend and ask.
    As for Metronet, I was simply friends with Terminus, I have no idea why
    he freaked out, insulted everyone, took his board down and dissapeared.
    But I haven't spoken with him since he was in Paris sometime last May.
ME: Ok, what about the quality of files, where would you suggest a new phreak
    start out? And how did you start out?
AN: Argh, again the long questions. I have to get going in a minute, but Ok.
    The quality of new files is shit, nothing usefull is being written, I've
    seen some of the newer files, it's like, are these people joking or what?
    101 way to spell leech, how to be a phreak, the real pirates guide, a guide
    to hacking/phreaking/carding/anything, and they are all total shit. I mean
    if people regard these as testimonials on how to card or whatever, then its
    no wonder so many of them get busted. Where to start, well go to Shadio
    Rack, and buy: understanding telephone electronics. Then get ahold of Don's
    files, read and understand them. I KNOW, everyone says they are innacurate,
    and plagerised or whatever. But what did they want him to do? make it up
    as he went along? of course it has to be simillar with something. The fact
    is, even though there are some mistakes, 95% of the text is extremely use-
    ful for begginers. No-One has to this date done  better job. For specialisd
    knowledge you can branch off to files that deal with hat subject matter. 
    For example: Blue Boxing is covered in about 50 files at any given time,
    but the best and most technically correct ones are probably those by Tabas.
    I started out, as you put it. When I was about 6, my father was a nuclear
    physicist before getting into business. And used to work for NCAR. (Natnl
    Center of something or another.) They were one of the first 3 organazations
    to get a Cray-1 and I hung around and started doing thing like running
    stupid little programs on punch cards through it. I was supposed to just
    run their's through, but in reality I could do whatever I wanted to. So I
    had fun. Everything I did until 1979 dealt with mainframes. Then someone
    introduced me to an Apple, and I ended up hanging around with Magnetic
    Surfer (Old phreak). Who also had an apple, running with a casette tape &
    a micromodem II. It was fun, there were like 30 boards out then PERIOD. 
    It was sort of the begining of everything, Rather nice.
ME: How old are you anyway?
AN: Old... almost 18
ME: Whew, well compared to a lot of people out there your quite young.
AN: It depends. There's a point where you reach a level that you can really do
    just about anything. It's not 1 set of skills, but combine a phreak, a
    hacker and a pirate, into 1 person. And that person is effectively unstop-
    able. He can do just about anything he wants to. But at that point you
    usually decide what course you want your life to take. You can easily
    become a sucessful computer criminal. Or you can enter the real world with
    a host of extra skills that give you an incredible edge over anyone in the
    information age.
ME: So what do you think of all the "Elite" 19-25 year olds still out there?
AN: Well, if people started later, then they might still be there at that age,
   or they might just enjoy calling boards & joining things just for the fun of
    it. If on the other hand they have been into it for 5 years and are still
    serious about the entire Rad K000l I'm Elite, cycle, then they are either
    complete social outcasts, or losers. If at that point you find that having
    some kid in Pig's Knuckle Idaho, idolize you. Is the most important part
    of your life, then you have some serious problems. I wish them the best of
    luck, and may they all eventually grow up and get real lives.
ME: That sounds about right. Also what did you mean by "can do anything" you
    mean get at any information?
AN: Yeah.
ME: With Phantom Access?
AN: Nooo, look Phantom Access is nice, it's good tool, but I only need so many
    codes for so many systems. I set it up for 1 night, and have enough codes
    to last 5 years. I have no use for a scanner unless I am looking for some
    thing particular in a specific ANC. And there are much eaisier ways of
    getting a PW then setting up a hacker. They are all essentially toys. 
    Granted, they are very nice toys, but it's much faster to socially eng-
    ineer whatever you might need. I no longer play with systems just for
    the hell of it, unless I am in the process of learning them, in which case
    I get a real account from my local ACM office.
ME: But why a combination of the three?
AN: Ok, simple, it's a deadly combination. Security people are used to dealing
    with hackers, ok make the OS as bulletproof as possible, let's assume they
    miraculously achive perfection. Secure system. Now the weak link is users,
    it HAS to have users to access the information. So now the weak link is 
    their pw's. A pirate can program his machine to do anything he wants it to
    do, since he is presumably adept enough to write whatever quickie hacker
    he might need for the situation. So now you begin to play with getting an
    account from one of the users, what is another weak link? the phone lines
    themselves. On mechanical systems it's more of a hassle, but still within
    reason, but on digital systems it's one large software program with all
    kinds of neat functions.
ME: Right, you and Paul are the leading experts on ESS I hear. I see, the above
    seems logical, no security could stop that. Also did you write some kind of
    single modem data trap? or was that another rumor?
AN: Geez, lot's of rumor's, yeah a while ago. The cat is an incredible modem,
    however most people don't comprehend it's power, pirates just think it's
    a cheap 202. Argh.
ME: Yes, I have one. It's nice. There was one thing I always meant to ask you:
    how do you feel about all this? I mean do you have any moral considerations
    at all?
AN: Lovely, this is really getting odd. No, I don't. Morality is a useless and
    essentally outdated value. Of course it has it's place, something has to
    hold society together I suppose, But that's neither here or now. Personally
    I subscribe to the stainless steel rat way of thinking, in short, if it
    results in the death of another person, it's wrong, whatever you might want
    to define as wrong. Anything short of that doesn't matter. There's just 
    People and the universe, the universe doesn't care, so do anything you want
    to do. It's people who create right and wrong, no-one else.
ME: So why didn't you take the Computer criminal's choice when you had it?
AN: Haha, it's not something I have one chance at, it's just a way of looking
    at things. Why should I risk myself on doing this action, if I am caught
    & in cases of emmbezlement, etc, it' not if, it's WHEN. Then i get to flee
    the country or go to trial, for some trivial sum, that may seem like a lot
    of money to me now, but will be loose change 2 years from now. So it's 
    more a question of practicality, why bother? When I can make 100 times it
    legally and not worry? America is a capitalistic country, anyone with half
    a mind and an idea can make large sums of money.
ME: So you are retiring from the phreaking world?
AN: Look, am I IN the phreaking world? No, It's just a set of skills I'm glad
    I gained, and can use to my advantage in the world. 
ME: So all the board's, everything, it's just so much shit?
AN: In a word YES. People get bored, they need something to do, when it comes
    down to it, it's fun for a while, for it's own sake. I'm eliter then you
    are, I'm a k-k000l dude, and so on. It's a game, like anything else. The
    only losers are people caught in an endless loop of calling boards, and
    collecting useless information they will never use.
ME: Much like TAP?
AN: Much like TAP. Really, it just comes down to a group of people with a 
    common interest in theoretical applications of technology. They're info-
    maniacs, but will NEVER apply their knowledge to anything. I think it
    was Don who appended 'Knowledge is power', to 'The Sucesfull aplication
    of knowledge, is power'. Knowing everything about everything, is useless
    unless it's applied to something.
ME: Is that why you no longer go to TAP?
AN: There's no reason to, I went there primarily to talk to Paul, I talk to
    Paul anyway, why waste my Friday nights?
ME: He doesn't go anymore either.
AN: Yeah I know.
ME: Do you ever wonder about all the new people out there just starting out who
    will never make it to any point worth mentioning. Since anyone who is any
    good has more or less left?
AN: No I don't. I really don't care, anyone who has an interest will eventually
    realize that the answers he wants can be found in just about any local lib-
    rary. Not all the answers, but a start. Boards are a social medium, you go
    there to talk to people, they don't serve any real purpose at this time.
ME: Question, do you, or did you ever run a board or boards?
AN: Yeah I did, it was more an excercise in programming then anything else. 
    Then I had a small board written in C up on my local Unix account, just
    to see how it would work out. Multi-lines, etc. and about 20 megs 
    allocated to my use, it was amusing.
ME: Was this an open board?
AN: No, just friends. 
ME: Will you ever run an open board again?
AN: I never did and I have no reason to, I will be a consultant for a company
    starting next year, which will have a board up, on which I will be remote,
    but it won't be a phreak board. Like I've said, I have no use for calling
    one, even less use for putting one up.
ME: So what kind of board will it be?
AN: Some sort of multi-user mini-LAN. I don't really know, nor care.
ME: Are you still the Dungeon Master on one of the multi-user role playing
    systems?
AN: Yes
ME: Is there anywhere you can be reached?
AN: It varies, I have account on CIS and STC on and off to see what's going
    on in the sigs. I'm also going to be on Qantum-Net. (Amiga Developers sig)
ME: Speaking of which, how far did you get on the Amiga Phantom Access?
AN: On the Apple I have it to a point where it can run as a self-contained
    expert system I can tell it what to do, and it can go off and do it
    for a day, or a week.  But as I said, it's essentially useless to me. I'll
    probably finish the Amiga version sometime early in '86. C is C, and I can
    write infinite libraries of functions, but I need information on hardware
    interfacing, the manual's that come with the Amiga suck, the $100 hardware
    manual is fluff. I should be getting the developer's pack in the mail some
    time this week, that's RamWhack, a Debugger, several really necessary utils
    & 3,000 pages. So that should end my problems.
ME: How do you find it?
AN: The Amiga? It's a nice toy, however the OS has some serious problems, the
    keyboard is lousy, the monitor sucks. But overall in hardware I'd give it a
    7 on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being a C64, 10 being a Xerox Dandelion, Apollo,
    or  Sun wrkstn. It's amazing FOR THE PRICE. But  otherwise, as I said,
    a nice toy, nothing more.
ME: Will it include some kind of normal terminal program?
AN: Yeah, Terminal program with buffer's, macro's. Only not AE type of macro's
    more like a shellscript that can take variable occurances into account and
    act upon them. Terminal emulation, Xmodem, Ymodem, Kermit, B Band, Vidtex
    and a X.PC & MNP, for the CCITT22, etc.
ME: How do you find it? 2400 baud that is?
AN: Well 2400bps is not that big a deal, you need perfect lines, if you don't
    have them then you either get garbage or X.PC or MNP kick in, correct it,
    and slow the effective speed down. It's more of a fad then anything else,
    it's not going to overtake 212, I mean look at TeleByte 10,000bps, then
    someone else has 19,200bps and it just goes on and on, I doubt anything
    will replace 212 as a standard in the US. For file tranfers it will just
    keep getting faster and faster with specialized equipment.
ME: By the way, on a completely different topic, are you back in school yet?
AN: No, Possibly in Jan. of '86, probably in Sep. '86. And if everything goes
    the way I want it to, then I'll quit in Dec. And never return.
ME: Why would you quit MIT?
AN: Why not? No-one's left there, Richard is gone (RMS), everyone else is gone,
    I wouldn't be there to have fun at this point, but rather to pick up a
    degree.
ME: I wondred about that, why not pick up a degree? Correct me if I'm wrong but
    from what i've been told you graduated high school when you turned 16, and
    managed to get 1580 on the SAT. Why throw it away?
AN: Throw what away? Why get a degree? to throw onto a resume' and to get a 
    dead end 30-40k a year job working for someone else, no fucking way.
ME: 30-40K doesn't sound bad to me.
AN: It's not, but then again it's not much. And I have this thing about doing
    underpaid work that makes my employers more money then I make. Forget it.
ME: So why go for those 3 months at all?
AN: Oh, the usual reasons. My father wants me to go, the moment I enter my 
    trust funds escalate and I get more money.
ME: So the only reason you're going is to get money?
AN: Yeah.
ME: Speaking of college, isn't Paul a Cal-Tech. dropout?
AN: Talk to him about it, No comment.
ME: Ok, just I've talked to some of the other people at TAP and heard that. I
    understand if you don't want to say anything. What do you think of the
    other people at TAP?
AN: I don't, no-one is there anymore.
ME: Can I just ask one thing about Mr. Xerox? From his messages that I saw on
    the World of Cryton, he is very opinionated, going as far as to say that
    LOD is garage, Blotto is a windbag and making degradory remarks about all
    the other LOD members.
AN: Well Xerox knows what he's doing, if he knows them and says they're losers,
    then they very well might be. I don't know them, so I can't really agree or
    disagree with him.
ME: Well let me put it this way, I know it won't happen, but let's say that for
    whatever reason you wanted to put together a group to accomplish any given
    goal. Who would you want in it?
AN: Well it's not going to help you very much for me to answer it, since you
    wouldn't be familliar with most of the people.
ME: Ok, just theoretically, who?
AN: Well, the people that you'd know: Paul and Xerox, then everybody else would
    be local friends who have some particular specialties that would be useful.
ME: Such as?
AN: Ok, 1 person who knows locks, alarms, security systems, sensor's, and high
    intensity lasers, one who designs computers and knows hardware perfectly,
    one that's into explosives, detonators, acid's, nerve gasses, etc, Hum 3
    people that fully comprehend a large range of micro's, 1 of my father's
    programmer's, who doesn't have any moral or legal problems with dealing in
    whatever situation might come up, and 2 other friends for various reasons.
ME: So 12 people including yourself. What about apprecntices or people to do
    things for the group that you don't want to do yourself. Isn't it common
    practice to get kids who are minor to pick up things like carded purchases?
AN: I have no comment's on that, except to say I don't card. What people over-
    look is that I live in NYC and through friends have access to an infinite
    number of lowlifes.
ME: You mean petty criminals?
AN: Not even that, just lowlifes. They don't cost anything material, one of
    the things they most value is blue boxes & international codes so they can
    call the motherland and talk to their parents or set up drug shipments or
    whatever.
ME: So for some codes or a box they'll do anything?
AN: More or less, the only hard part is getting accepted in their little world,
    I have no desire to, nor do I have to, since one of my friends is.
ME: So you have a large group of people willing to do anything. Must be great.
AN: To an extent, but not really. Most of them are complete idiot's, not able
    to memorize anything. However the upside is that the only thing they care
    about is where their next fix is coming from, so give 10 codes and they'll
    do anything. Give them a gram of dust and they'll kill their mother.
ME: Are you serious?
AN: Well no, the going rate to hit someone is 2 grams of coke, or $200, which
    is the street price for 2 grams of coke. One of their ongoing jokes is how
    white people go out and spend $20,000 on a profesional assassin to kill
    their annoying wife for alimony or something and he fucks it up, when they
    could go to the local street corner and have a junkie do anything for 200
    bucks. Which is true.
ME: And your involved in this?
AN: Nooo, I never deal with them, I dont hate anyone or want anyone killed,
    they're just a large group of people that can be cheaply brought for any
    service you want done, they are hardly professional, but can carry boxes
    as well as anyone else. Personally I find them pathetic, but what do I
    care.
ME: Ok, makes sense. Well is there anywhere you can be reached?
AN: Not really, the people that I want to talk to have my #'s. I don't call any
    boards. So.... Well I'll be reachable in Feb. '86, on 1 board in nyc. But
    until then, anyone who really has to reach me can leave a message with 
    someone who knows me, a lot of my friends aren't that hard to reach.
ME: Ok, thanks a lot for your time!

{}

Some things that need to be said. All the (,{,< or whatever,are my own comments
not made by the people who were tlkin. Many of these conversation happened over
a longer time period. The one with Lord Digital lasted about 10 minutes of real
time, but as you can see the file is a lot longer. The one's with Chesire and
Tuc lasted about 3 minutes each. I have longer tapes of Tuc, but he didn't have
too many interesting things to say at the time. I also have many of Paul Maudib
which will cover part 2 of this file. This will be out as soon as I get some
more time to type it all in. Alltogether I have about 5 hours of tapes of convo
s with 50 people. I also have more tapes of Tuc and Lord Digital. If anyone is
interested in all of this, then I will type them up as time permits. Everything
has been typed in as accurately as possible. But some parts have been cut, you
obviously can't walk up to someone and start questioning them just like that,
all the small talk has not been included, just the interesting parts. But 
remember, text files have a way of getting HUGE. The actualy convo with Lord
Digital lasted 10 minutes, what has been transcribed here would have taken 
less then 4 minutes of real time. The other 2 took about 45 seconds each. So
this is a lot of typing to do for me. But if people show enough interest then
I will be willing to do it. I also have about 20 hours of conferences. Some
of them are total wastes of time, but some of them are interesting. I am also
willing to type these up, but mostly they are just a large group of people
yelling and screaming about nothing. Not exactly interesting reading. I also
want to point out that none of the people on any of the tapes knew that I
was making recordings, since I don't go to TAP anymore they can be just as
mad as me as they want to. I don't really think any of them would care, with
the exception of the 950 kode kids who don't like being exposed for being the
losers that they are.

{} (C) 1985 by The Infiltrator. All right's reserved. {}
(>