1085 lines
25 KiB
Plaintext
1085 lines
25 KiB
Plaintext
C
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2/60: DOS 5
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Name: Lynne #171 @9955
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Date: Sun Jul 07 09:07:10 1991
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Has anyone had a chance to really work with DOS5. We're thinking of upgrading
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in the office and had such a problem with 4 that everyone has become very
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leery. (You know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it) I'm sure you'll find this
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hard to believe, but I'd really just like to have a month where things go
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almost smoothly or -- even (dare I think it?) normal, whatever that is, you
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know, without having to go through everyone's directories and clean up
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software. I'm also getting very close to convincing this paradigm that I work
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for to go network!!! to even use a tape backup!!! Six months ago, this man
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thought using ink in a pen was advanced. Anyway, I'd like to move up to 5 if
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I have enough feedback from you guys that helps me intelligently convince him
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that we would benefit. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks.
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3/60: dos5 is pretty good
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Name: Lockjaw The Ogre #31 @9955
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Date: Mon Jul 08 11:20:50 1991
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Reply to : DOS 5
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Original by : Lynne #171 @9955
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it has a few utilities that can be found elsewhere (norton's), but it does
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load ito high memory, thus freeing up a great bit of memory over dos4. there
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have been some problems with windows, but the readme file in the package
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details how to cure problems with many software packages. i say give it a
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try. there have been few problems, that i have heard of, and most of them
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were detailed in that readme file.
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In the Black Forest lives an Ogre named Lockjaw!
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4/60: new portable computers with color VGA
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Name: Lockjaw The Ogre #31 @9955
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Date: Mon Jul 08 11:22:54 1991
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i am watching a story on CNN right now about new portable computers with flat
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color vga monitors. they look great, with awesome color capabilities. the
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screen is made up of loads of tiny transistors that control the color, rather
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than the picture tubwe. only one american manufacturer is making them, dolch,
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but toshiba and nec are making them elsewhere.
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BLEH!
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Lockjaw the Ogre
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He's gonna nail your mouth open wide
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5/60: Only one prob. with those color portables...
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Name: Gardener #206 @9955
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Date: Mon Jul 08 12:22:35 1991
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... is that they can't run on batteries (yet). Oh, I s'pose you COULD run
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them off of batteries if you didn't mind swapping them out every hour or so!
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<grin> But, I s'pose it makes it a lot easier to carry your work home with
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you when it's all in a compact COLOR unit no bigger than your average laptop
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in most cases.
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THE GARDENER!
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6/60: HELP!!!
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Name: Soltan Gris #59 @9955
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Date: Thu Jul 11 00:17:21 1991
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Does anybody out there have the Monty Python Flying Circus game and an Adlib
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board? The manual says to type PYTHON /A but that does not work. Any
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suggestions? If not, I guess I'll look for my receipt.
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Joe Cool is cool!
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Soltan
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7/60: dos 5.0
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Name: Coppertop #333 @9955
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Date: Thu Jul 11 16:33:53 1991
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I use DR-DOS 5.0 I think it is really a 'good thing' that Mickeysoft finally
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caught up with the competition... of course that means DR-DOS 6.0 is imminent
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and MS will once again be a year behind (or more).
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8/60: 4DOS CDD command
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Name: Flatliner #108 @9955
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Date: Fri Jul 12 12:23:54 1991
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Reply to : the best CD utility i have found...
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Original by : Lockjaw The Ogre #31 @9955
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that helps some, but you still have to specify the EXACT path for 4DOS to go
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to, and to as many levels down as the directory is.
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With LCD31A you can change to ANY directory at ANY level on ANY disk drive,
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with only a partial name.
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For instance "ch dow" or "ch own" goes from any other directory to my
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"C:\COMM\DOWN" directory. "ch b" takes me from anywhere to "C:\COMM\DOWN\B"
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I also like 4DOS's move command, but I hear MS-DOS 5.0 has that now, along
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with the command line editor.
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9/60: 4dos
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Name: Flatliner #108 @9955
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Date: Fri Jul 12 12:26:23 1991
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Reply to : 4dos
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Original by : Lockjaw The Ogre #31 @9955
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replaces COMMAND.COM for most users.
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Does 4DOS work with DOS5.0?
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10/60: Make that TWO problems
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Name: Flatliner #108 @9955
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Date: Fri Jul 12 12:28:02 1991
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Reply to : Only one prob. with those color portables...
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Original by : Gardener #206 @9955
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They cost much much.
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11/60: Aye!!
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Name: Soltan Gris #59 @9955
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Date: Fri Jul 12 15:12:55 1991
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You're paying for convenience when you buy a portable pc or laptop. Of course
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they're still neat, though, to be able to take your 286 or 386 everywhere you
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go...
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Soltan
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12/60: And 26 new ones here.
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Name: Chez Lutin #186 @9955
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Date: Fri Jul 12 19:58:48 1991
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in not (mind you) 'bout 14-18 hours (I forget, Kent can check, but it ain't
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that long.)
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13/60: dos does not have a move command
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Name: Lockjaw The Ogre #31 @9955
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Date: Thu Jun 13 08:52:47 1991
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it has a move option in the dosshell. they are trwo completely different
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things. i can type a move command just like a copy command. same syntax and
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all. dosshell is not a command line thingy.
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dosshell also will not exit on my computer. the only other software i have
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that type of problem with is wwiv.
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In the Black Forest lives an Ogre named Lockjaw!
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14/60: What I have heard about DOS 5.0
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Name: Felonious Skunk #226 @9955
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Date: Sun Jul 14 01:00:28 1991
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Is that Microsoft and Central Point Software teamed up and came out with DOS
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4.01 that could do some neat tricks (like the command editor...) But nothing
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truly new except for the ability to move some of the TSR's to High Memory.
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Anybody who actually has had a review wish to comment. I am only going by
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others word, and want to find out wether it is worth upgrading to or not.
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---Felonious Skunk
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15/60: One little discrepency ...
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Name: Hooded Man #9 @9955
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Date: Sun Jul 14 08:54:13 1991
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A relative of mine who had installed MS-DOS 5.0 on his '386 told me that
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the version will not work with SimCity. He does not know about the option
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where you can "fool" games & applications into thinking it's the older
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version of DOS (what was that command again, by the way?) but has anybody
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tried playing it on 5.0 yet?
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/_/
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/ /ooded /|/|an
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16/60: DOS 5.0 is a *little* more...
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Name: Gardener #206 @9955
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Date: Sun Jul 14 13:59:50 1991
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... than just an enhanced 4.01 with HIMEM and UMB (High memory and Upper memory
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Blocks. I just LOVE Acronyms! :) ). It's got a few neat features, some of
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which I haven't even BEGUN to start using. DOSKEY adds two features that DOS
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has been lacking for QUITE some time. The DOSKEY TSR (another acronym) keeps a
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'command history'. You can use the Up and Down arrows to look up a command
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that you typed awhile back, unlike the F3 key which only recalls the command
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just executed. You can also search for commands in the history and stuff like
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that. VERY useful when you type the same command over and over again! DOSKEY
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also has macros. You can string several common statements together into one
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key. Like, I have this HD menu program. To start it up, I have to type
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cd C:\3dmenu
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c:
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3dmenu
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so, I just made a macro (called menu) that types all that for me!
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There's also the DOS shell, that lets you access programs and files from a
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Windows-like environment. It comes with a watered-down version of Microsoft's
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QuickBasic, and a nice editor replacement for EDLIN. Then, there's stuff like
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the catalog telling you how much space is LEFT on a disk, as well as how much
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is in use. There's the MEM command, so you can check free system RAM and see
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how you're doing on RAM use.
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I like DOS 5.0 so far. It only cost me $60 (most places around here have it
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for $70. I got mine a CompuAdd up off of 70), and it's worth it so far.
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Only one problem with it. I'm trying to get EMM386.EXE installed, so I can
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load stuff into UMB's. Only problem is, Windows 3.0 won't run in Standard or
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386 Enhanced mode when I try to use the RAM or NOEMS switch. I know why it
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won't work with NOEMS, but the RAM switch is supposed to eliminate the problem
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Anybody else have problems with Windows 3.0 and DOS 5.0's EMM386.EXE???
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THE GARDENER!
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17/60: Hey
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Name: Hosemaster #117 @9955
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Date: Sun Jul 14 22:06:21 1991
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Hooded man. I think there is a SETVER command for set version. I believe that
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is what it is. I have been looking at a friends copy. I am probably going to
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go and pick one up soon.
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18/60: Not that anyone here has any need...(no sarcasm intended)
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Name: Felonious Skunk #226 @9955
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Date: Sun Jul 14 23:04:26 1991
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But if anyone needs any info on AutoCad, Skunk knows CAD....
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FYI
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19/60: Hosemaster
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Name: Hooded Man #9 @9955
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Date: Tue Jul 16 02:06:42 1991
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Ah yah thanks man! That's the command. I recommend that ya get it, too.
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That Load High is really invaluable. What gets me in the gut is that
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MicroSoft actually sold this for under $100. They must be getting mushy
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soft, like day old potato salad.
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20/60: Hmmm...
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Name: Flatliner #108 @9955
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Date: Sat Jul 20 14:04:45 1991
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Reply to : DOS 5.0 is a *little* more...
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Original by : Gardener #206 @9955
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sounds like, except for the high-memory support, most of DOS5.0 has already
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been available as the shareware COMMAND.COM replacement "4DOS". It has
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command history, a move command, mem command, versatile DIR command with space
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used/left displayed, and tons more like the SELECT command that I've only used
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a few times. SELECT is invoked with a drive/file wildcard spec and a command,
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and then you select files from the list on screen point&shoot like, and 4DOS
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will run the command for each selected file.
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QBASIC and the shell, if it's better than 4.01's shell, are probably worth
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some of the price. A few extra low-ram K makes up the rest.
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Who cares about the new editor? There are at least a hundred editors of all
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kinds out there as pd/freeware/shareware/commercial. Pick the one you like
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best. I'm sure I'll still prefer VDE 1.61 to any editor DOS has to offer, and
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VDE's freeware.
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21/60: The DOS 5.0 Shell ...
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Name: Hooded Man #9 @9955
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Date: Sun Jul 21 11:38:32 1991
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If there was that one extra decision you needed on making you get the new
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MS-DOS, then the new Shell would probably tip the scales for you. First of
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all, if you have Windows, don't even worry about the Shell. BUT, if you do
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not use Windows, then the Shell is the closest thing to it. Can't run
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Windows-specific applications from it, but it looks and works quite similar
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to version 3.0.
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Even looks good in CGA ...
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/_/
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/ /ooded /|/|an
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22/60: I hope
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Name: Flatliner #108 @9955
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Date: Tue Jul 23 17:39:48 1991
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Reply to : The DOS 5.0 Shell ...
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Original by : Hooded Man #9 @9955
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it works a good deal better than that lousy file manager included with windows
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3.0
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The progman is OK, but fileman trys me patience.
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23/60: DOS 5.0
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Name: Nobody N. Particular #360 @9955
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Date: Wed Jul 24 21:43:19 1991
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I use DOS 5.0 with QEMM-386. It works well. I agree that the DOSSHELL is
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much improved. I run this for DOS, Windows, and DECNet 3.01 using a VAX 6210
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as a file server. (The only good VAX is a dead VAX ;) The main purpose of
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getting DOS 5 is the memory extension you will recieve if you load it right on
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a 286 or higher. If you have problems let me know and I'll try to help.
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Nobody likes to help.
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24/60: Does
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Name: Flatliner #108 @9955
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Date: Tue Jul 30 12:24:12 1991
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DOS5.0 come with new versions of things like SMARTDRV.SYS and RAMDRIVE.SYS.
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Between Windows3.0 and DOS4.01 I've had several versions of theses things
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floating around and would love to just have the latest of whatever.
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Also, is there a Microsoft Mouse driver past V7.04 ?
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25/60: MS Mouse Driver
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Name: Hooded Man #9 @9955
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Date: Wed Jul 31 01:56:00 1991
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Flatliner -
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Yep, there is a version 8 out now. Lots of goodies with it too, like a
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graphical control panel for use with Windows. Call up Starfleet BBS at
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782-3095, because they happen to have it there ...
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(hmm, didn't know it was PD)
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26/60: mouse driver-
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Name: The Bear #370 @9955
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Date: Fri Aug 09 15:33:29 1991
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The control panel doesn't have to be run from Windows.
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Also, the drive may not be PD, but I doubt M-soft cares if it is
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distributed, since the only use anyone has for it is running it on a M-soft
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mouse, which you must purchase.
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27/60: Under $100?
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Name: Mercurial #93 @9955
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Date: Sat Aug 17 14:36:46 1991
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Reply to : Hosemaster
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Original by : Hooded Man #9 @9955
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Shoot I got my Dos5 for 29.99. Call Egghead at 1-800-egghead and see if they
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have any left. Very worth it. And I don't have to reboot to run memory hog
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games like Wing Commander. And it solved a problem I had with my Pardise 256
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color driver for windows. Don't know how but it did.
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^^^^^^^^^
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<<MERCURIAL>>
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VVVVVVVVV
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28/60: Yeah, DOS5 has the latest versions of SmartDrv and RamDrive. Also the
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Name: Mercurial #93 @9955
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Date: Sat Aug 17 14:39:15 1991
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Reply to : Does
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Original by : Flatliner #108 @9955
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the latest version of Himem.
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^^^^^^^^^
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<<MERCURIAL>>
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VVVVVVVVV
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29/60: DOS5
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Name: Phaze #85 @9955
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Date: Sun Aug 18 01:28:49 1991
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Yeah, its pretty good. I know of at least two games that would only run
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with barebones config.sys and autoexec.bat. Both of them run fine on my
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286. I've got a little over 600K of memory free. Of course if you've got
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a 386 and extra memory then you can even get more. The Doskey program
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is a nice addition(it retrieves old commands).
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PHAZE
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the ghost in the works
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30/60: DOS5
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Name: Cthulhu #148 @9955
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Date: Sun Aug 18 09:55:19 1991
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If you get DOS5 you need to upgrade the Bernoulli Box drivers for some reason.
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Luckily IOmega has a BBS that has the new versions online to DL.
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/\___[X]___/\
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/ /|\ \
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/ /\ /\ \
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/\\/ \| |/ \//\
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31/60: DOS 5.0
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Name: Pythagoras #157 @9955
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Date: Sun Aug 18 19:01:31 1991
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There is a WWIVneted DOS 5.0 forum you can access on the Carousel
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(919-787-6399) in Raleigh, if you are interested.
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32/60: DOS 5.0 price correction..
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Name: The Bear #370 @9955
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Date: Tue Aug 20 15:07:52 1991
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Reply to : Under $100?
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Original by : Mercurial #93 @9955
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It's not 29.99, but 39.99.
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33/60: I thought...
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Name: Donatello #56 @9955
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Date: Wed Aug 21 01:54:00 1991
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Reply to : DOS5
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Original by : Cthulhu #148 @9955
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you used a Mac!
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whew
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don
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34/60: DOS 5
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Name: Cthulhu #148 @9955
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Date: Fri Aug 23 06:43:46 1991
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I do use a Mac. I have a Mac Plus of my own, the AppleSeeds BBS is run on an
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SE/30, at work I have a IIcx for my personal workstation, and a Mac II for my
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data acquisition computer. However, I also am kind of in charge of a 386sx
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that we keep up to date and stocked with good software for a visiting
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professor that comes out every couple of months to help us out doing our
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research. So I have to deal with DOS, too.
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_
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/\___[X]___/\
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/ /|\ \
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/ /\ /\ \
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/\\/ \| |/ \//\
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_|| ||_
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35/60: MS-DOS v5
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Name: Hooded Man #9 @9955
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Date: Sat Aug 24 00:38:00 1991
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... is absolutely fantastic, as far as MS-DOS goes. On my 386, I get 614k
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free, which I believe is the _best_ you can get, with both HiMem.SYS and
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EMM386.SYS loaded in conventional. Well, the best with DOS 5 that is. If
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you chucked the drivers for v5.0 and opted for QEMM, I think the memory
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savings are even better. Anyone know this for sure?
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36/60: Yeah, I do believe that you save more when you use the QuaterDeck...
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Name: Mercurial #93 @9955
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Date: Sat Aug 24 11:31:25 1991
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Reply to : MS-DOS v5
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Original by : Hooded Man #9 @9955
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Memory drivers but since I have a 286 currently, I haven't done much looking
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into the matter.
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^^^^^^^^^
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<<MERCURIAL>>
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VVVVVVVVV
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37/60: Well just wait
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Name: Soltan Gris #59 @9955
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Date: Sun Aug 25 00:58:38 1991
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for OS/2 version 2.0, I believe it is... It supposedly will allow you to run
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DOS software better than DOS, and of course you won't have the 640K barrier,
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because OS/2 uses all your memory.
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Soltan Gris
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38/60: DOS 5.0 and memory...
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Name: The Bear #370 @9955
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Date: Sun Aug 25 12:21:57 1991
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Reply to : MS-DOS v5
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Original by : Hooded Man #9 @9955
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Yes, you can still get better memory savings using QEMM. In fact, if you use
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QEMM and don't use "DOS=HIGH" in config.sys, you'll end up with more memory
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than if you let DOS try to load itself high. The reason for this is that QEMM
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is better at loading DOS high than DOS itself is. Not surprising, really,
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since QEMM is many years and many versions old, while this is the first
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release of DOS with this capability. I think Microsoft would have been much
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wiser to license QEMM from Quarterdeck (like they licensed the Mirror software
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from Central Point Software). It's probably going to be some time before DOS
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is as good at managing memory as QEMM is. But at least it's finally moving in
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the right direction.
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39/60: 640k barrier...
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Name: The Bear #370 @9955
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Date: Sun Aug 25 12:23:51 1991
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If it's a program written to run under DOS, it doesn't matter if you run it
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under OS/2, it won't be able to use any more memory than it normally would (it
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might have more of the <640k area free, but that's it). It would still have
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to use Extended or Expanded memory to get anything beyond that, and you
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certainly don't need OS/2 to do that.
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40/60: Hey, I got a mac
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Name: Donatello #56 @9955
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Date: Sun Aug 25 23:31:47 1991
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with 4 megabytes of memory, I run a BBS and can play two games all at the same
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time...
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whew
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don
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41/60: Free memory...
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Name: Bandit #310 @9955
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Date: Mon Aug 26 23:36:40 1991
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Reply to : MS-DOS v5
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Original by : Hooded Man #9 @9955
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I've seen a system with it's normal drivers and dos loaded high with QEMM that
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had 638K free conventional memory.
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Bandit
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42/60: free memory...
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Name: The Bear #370 @9955
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Date: Wed Aug 28 00:36:23 1991
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Reply to : Free memory...
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Original by : Bandit #310 @9955
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Heck, I can do better than that. I've had a QEMM system set up with 730k of
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conventional memory free. There's a Quarterdeck program called VIDHIGH (or
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something like that) that will re-map the video memory to low and give you a
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total 760k free (out of which you need a little for the DOS and (for me)
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Desqview cores).
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43/60: 760k RAM free?!
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Name: Hooded Man #9 @9955
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Date: Wed Aug 28 02:34:36 1991
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Man, I wouldn't even know what to do with all that memory! I'm happy with
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614k and EMS as it is! =)
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44/60: DOS5 memory free
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Name: Flatliner #108 @9955
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Date: Tue Sep 03 01:34:56 1991
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With all the normal drivers (biggest are mouse & smartdrv) that gave me about
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540K in 4.01 loaded, I now have 615K free. It does prevent me from running
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both a 512K smartdrv and a 713K ramdrive, and it does prevent Win3 from
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running in Standard mode.
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45/60: Telix mouse support
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Name: Nightwing #421 @9955
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Date: Wed Sep 04 09:39:54 1991
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Reply to : Does
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Original by : Monty Python #127 @9955
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I have a patch somewhere that lets you use a mouse with telix. I'll see if I
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can find it and get back to you.
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46/60: There is a file
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Name: Big John Stud #13 @9955
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Date: Wed Sep 04 13:39:14 1991
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Reply to : Telix mouse support
|
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Original by : Nightwing #421 @9955
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that can be ofund pretty easily lately that lets you run a mouse with Telix. I
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have it somewhere I'll try and find it.
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47/60: Really?
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Name: Mercurial #93 @9955
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Date: Thu Sep 05 14:08:09 1991
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Reply to : DOS5 memory free
|
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Original by : Flatliner #108 @9955
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I have a 1.3 Meg Ramdisk and a 2.3 Meg / 820k Hyperdisk cache set up with
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setver, hyperscreen, ansi, mirror, and doskey and I can still run Win3 in
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|
standard mode... I have a '286 with 4 Meg and only 570k or so free at the
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DOS5 prompt....
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48/60: I have
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Name: Flatliner #108 @9955
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Date: Sat Sep 21 20:43:14 1991
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Reply to : Really?
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Original by : Mercurial #93 @9955
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but two megs total ram. Sure, if you have four then you can have huge
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ramdrive/smartdrive allocations. I had my 2 meg full up with smartdrv and
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ramdrive (what else is the extra ram useful for anyway under 4.01? ), so when
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I went and threw the TSRs and drivers up in high RAM, obviously something had
|
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to go.
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49/60: More memory is quite usefull in 4.01 if you are running windows...
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Name: Mercurial #93 @9955
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Date: Tue Sep 24 14:41:49 1991
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Reply to : I have
|
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Original by : Flatliner #108 @9955
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^^^^^^^^^
|
|
<<MERCURIAL>>
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VVVVVVVVV
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50/60: 4DOS
|
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Name: Dr. Mead #51 @9955
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Date: Thu Oct 03 07:31:33 1991
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|
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Reply to : 4dos
|
|
Original by : Flatliner #108 @9955
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I have 4DOS and DOS5.0 living in sin on my hard drive, and they seen to get
|
|
along pretty well...
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51/60: Memory savings
|
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Name: Dr. Mead #51 @9955
|
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Date: Thu Oct 03 07:34:32 1991
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|
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Reply to : MS-DOS v5
|
|
Original by : Hooded Man #9 @9955
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YEP, QEMM will get you 655K or so, depending what TSR's you have, and what
|
|
stuff can LOADHI. that's what i did on this 386SX.
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52/60: DOS5...
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Name: Dr. Mead #51 @9955
|
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Date: Thu Oct 03 07:37:16 1991
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Reply to : DOS5 memory free
|
|
Original by : Flatliner #108 @9955
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Did you try typing win/s at the prompt? That's all i had to do...
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53/60: Qemm
|
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Name: Bandit #310 @9955
|
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Date: Fri Oct 04 01:05:05 1991
|
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|
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Reply to : Memory savings
|
|
Original by : Dr. Mead #51 @9955
|
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|
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version 6 is now on the shelves. Look for it.
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***********
|
|
* * *** * *
|
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*** ***
|
|
The
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Bandit !!!
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54/60: QEMM v6, 4DOS and DOS 5.0
|
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Name: The Bear #370 @9955
|
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Date: Fri Oct 04 16:05:37 1991
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I'd watch it with QEMM version 6. I've been using it for about a month now
|
|
and it definitely has some bugs.
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|
|
I'm curious as to why someone would still want to use 4DOS with Dos 5.0.
|
|
Seems like most of the nice things about 4DOS have been built into DOS 5.0
|
|
(macros and command line editor, for example).
|
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55/60: Does DOS 5.0 have
|
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Name: Swing/Not Swing The Cat #86 @9955
|
|
Date: Sat Oct 05 12:32:09 1991
|
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|
|
the F9 filesearch ability of 4DOS? Or the aliasing ability? Or
|
|
batch-to-memory files? Does it have the command stack; and if so, is it as
|
|
advanced as 4DOS'?
|
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|
|
If not, one of these may be why people would still want their DOS 5.0 to have
|
|
4DOS. If not, I can't figure out why they want it either.
|
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|
|
Swing/Not Swing the Cat
|
|
WHEEEEEE!/Not WHEEEEEE!
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56/60: I know that DOS 5.0
|
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Name: Phaze #85 @9955
|
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Date: Mon Oct 07 03:33:26 1991
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|
|
has a command stacker that is supposed to compare favorablly with 4DOS. I
|
|
haven't checked about its file search capablility since i used Norton's for
|
|
that. As far as aliasing, I'm not sure what you mean. If you would explain
|
|
perhaps I could check for you.
|
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|
|
PHAZE
|
|
the ghost in the works
|
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57/60: 4DOS vs. Dos 5.0
|
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Name: The Bear #370 @9955
|
|
Date: Tue Oct 08 10:55:58 1991
|
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|
|
Reply to : Does DOS 5.0 have
|
|
Original by : Swing/Not Swing The Cat #86 @9955
|
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|
|
It doesn't have the built-in filesearch like 4DOS, but then, I use WHEREIS,
|
|
which is much better than the 4DOS search anyways (it will search across
|
|
whatever drives you specify, inside all kinds of archives if you want, and has
|
|
many other advanced features). No aliasing either, which I would like. It
|
|
does have "batch to memory" files (macros) and a very nice command stack
|
|
editor. It also has the ability to string multiple dos commands on a line
|
|
(you separate them with ctrl-t), which allows you to make batch files that are
|
|
much cleaner (takes out a lot of the crazy if/goto's).
|
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58/60: "aliasing"
|
|
Name: The Bear #370 @9955
|
|
Date: Tue Oct 08 10:56:40 1991
|
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|
|
Could very easily be accomplished by making small macros (batch files in
|
|
memory) to handle the aliasing for you.
|
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59/60: quiken update
|
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Name: Weasel #203 @9955
|
|
Date: Fri Oct 11 15:00:08 1991
|
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|
|
Has anyone upgraded their quiken 4? Got the card in the mail the other day
|
|
and I don't know if it's worth it.
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Thanks
|
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|
|
Weasel/s
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60/60: What exactly is wrong with QEMM 6?
|
|
Name: Mercurial #93 @9955
|
|
Date: Thu Oct 17 14:59:31 1991
|
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|
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Reply to : QEMM v6, 4DOS and DOS 5.0
|
|
Original by : The Bear #370 @9955
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TSIA.
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Post on Software Reviews? |