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NUMBER OF LINES: 999
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001=Usr:0 Null User 06/30/87 20:34 Msg:0 Call:0 Lines:19
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1$If you are in need of help, you need but ask...
|
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2$************************* INSTALLED: 18 JUL 89 ***************************
|
||
3$Welcome to BWMS II (BackWater Message System II) Mike Day System operator
|
||
4$**************************************************************************
|
||
5$GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS II IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION
|
||
6$ PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM.
|
||
7$BWMS II was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS II is a privately
|
||
8$owned and operated system which is currently open for use by the general
|
||
9$public. No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. As the
|
||
10$system is privately owned, I retain the right to remove any and all
|
||
11$messages which I may find offensive. Because of the limited size of the
|
||
12$system, it will be periodically purged of messages (only 999 lines of data
|
||
13$can be saved). To leave a message, type 'ENTER'. Use ctrl/C to get out
|
||
14$the ENTER mode. The message is automatically stored. If after entering
|
||
15$the message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to
|
||
16$replace the line. To exit from the system, type 'BYE' then hang up.
|
||
17$Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
|
||
18$**************************************************************************
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||
19$
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002=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/18/89 23:06 Msg:4129 Call:22673 Lines:4
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20 In the world there are only two tragedies.
|
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21 One is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it.
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22 -- Oscar Wilde
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23 *************************************************************************
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003=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/18/89 23:25 Msg:4130 Call:22674 Lines:15
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24 KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Well golly gee! Look where I am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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25
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26 Hi everyone. It looks like I get to start off this disk. It too bad,
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27 though, because I can't think of anything to really write about. Now if I
|
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28 were an egotistical boor, I would probably be gloating about being at the
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29 top, saying such things as "I'M AT THE TOP!!! I'M AT THE TOP!!! I'M AT THE
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30 TOP!!!". However, I am feeling it necessary to act humble right now, so I
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31 won't.
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32
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33 OLO
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34 \___/
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35 U
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36
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37 KKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Second up is still not the top!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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38
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004=Usr:498 Hagbard Celine , 07/19/89 00:24 Msg:4131 Call:22677 Lines:77
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39 {}
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40
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41 Society itself is shared fiction that is brought about by
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42 agreements made within a majority of people. If every single person
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43 in the city of Portland were to stop for the moment and understand
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44 just how artificial "society" is, you would either see 1) total
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45 chaos and a loss of respect for humanity, or 2) complete, compromising
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46 harmony and understanding between people of all ages, races, creeds,
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47 religions, and sexes. When you "break the law" by speeding 10 miles
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48 an hour over the "speed limit", you didn't break an actual PHYSICAL
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49 law, you simply conficted with the shared fiction that so many have
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50 a belief in. However, by going so fast, you must be more acountable
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51 for your actions and driving (you assume a larger responsibility).
|
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52 But when s/he in that blue uniform and white car pulls you over
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53 and they step out, armed with a weapon, and "cite" you by removing
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54 priviledges (you are ticketed for money), then you can see the effect
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55 of a fiction upon the mind of another human beside yourself. It's just
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56 not the same as trying to go faster than the speed of light - because
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57 the "law" (structure and composition of the shared fiction) can
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58 be changed by concensus, whereas you can not physically go faster
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59 than light because you will die ('you be squished like a
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60 cockroach beneed de foot'), and that you have no power to
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61 change. Mao was right - power DOES come from the barrel of
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62 a gun, but only because you accept the concept. You can,
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63 of course, not accept this and risk death, but you also stand
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64 a chance at changing the "society" in which you live - and
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65 effectively re-writting the rules of the fiction that
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66 most come to believe. China could be a totally democratic nation
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67 in less than 2 days, as the concensus is there, but the ideaology
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68 has been so engrained into their lives (don't rebel, serve the
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69 state, ignore your needs) that they can NOT MUSTER A COMMON,
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70 SHARED BELIEF. Which means, nothing will change until someone
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71 risks death. But again, the fear of death is the beginning
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72 of slavery (not my quote, but I do agree with it). So, they
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73 will recieve whatever they put into it. I am NOT saying that
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74 the students who are being executed are deserving of their actions -
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75 moreover, I'm saying the the people of China have condemned them
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76 by their own inactivity.
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77
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78 I just can't believe I wrote all of that mindless drivel.
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79
|
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80 Sometimes it is very frustrating to "bend" my own personal rules
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81 to fit with that of society. I don't care for competition -
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82 I just want to live my own life free of ethical hassles. Yet I
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83 have changed so many "rules" and "understandings" within myself
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84 that I'm not too sure about what I have become.
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85
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86 I've lost job opportunities because I'm a young white male.
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87 People look at me and say "you can't work with female superiors
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88 because young men at your age (18-23) are descriminating and
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89 sexist towards their supervisor (who is female)". BullSh*t! My
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90 curent supervisor is a 33-year-old white female, married, and
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91 has a son. I have consoled with her about this matter (she is
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92 aware of my job search), and she feels that I am quite exceptional
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93 with my dealings in this matter, and that I am NOT a "chauvanist
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94 male pig". Sometimes, I wonder if life could be simpler and
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95 direct without all of the pigsh*t of civilization. It's veru
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96 (sp- very) tempting to just pack up and tell everything else to
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97 f*ck off. If I did that, I would be arrested an thrown into
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98 jail for living on county/state/federal property. My crime?
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99 Golly Gee, I just wanted to either make a living and be left
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100 alone, or live my life as I please outside of civilization.
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101 How can you play "The Game" when you can't even participate?
|
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102 And the "rules" state that you can't drop out? So what do
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103 I do, rot every day where I sit? And that's just about
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104 all I can do. It reminds me of a short poem I've read, a real
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105 favorite of mine when things like this happen:
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106
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107 Look! Here's a ladder!
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108 C'mon, let's climb!
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109 The first rung is yours-
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110 The rest are mine.
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111
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112 Hagbard Celine, beaten by the System and forced into servitude.
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113
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114 {}
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115
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005=Usr:355 DAN QUALE 07/19/89 11:31 Msg:4132 Call:22683 Lines:4
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116 HOW MUCH WOOD COULD A WOOD CHUCK CUM IF A WOULD CHUCK COULD CUM ON WOULD???
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117 ::::::::::DAN QUALE::::::::::::::::
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118
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||
119
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||
006=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/19/89 19:14 Msg:4133 Call:22701 Lines:2
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120 wouldn't that be "Dan Qualude"? :)
|
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121
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007=Usr:343 black art 07/19/89 20:20 Msg:4134 Call:22703 Lines:3
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122 How much wood could a wood chuck up-chuck, if a woodchuck could up-chuck wood?
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123 - Ed Meese
|
||
124 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
|
||
008=Usr:84 Michael Miller j 07/19/89 21:38 Msg:4135 Call:22704 Lines:21
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125 &*&*&*&*`s
|
||
126
|
||
127 Hagbard, It all boils down to that old and overused saying "Lifes a bitch."
|
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128
|
||
129 To live a life that has a minimum amount of hypocrisy etc would be very
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130 hard. Few can do it, and as you surmise, it would require the removal of
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131 oneself from sociaty at large. This is a difficult decision, but one
|
||
132 that some people make. For me this is really not an option, as I value
|
||
133 the company of others to much. This does not mean that you cannot
|
||
134 live atleast somthing approaching a 'moral' life.
|
||
135
|
||
136 It's really hard to explain the way it all works, even if you think you
|
||
137 have some sort of a grasp. I guess that's why nobody has done a cool
|
||
138 <make that coherent.> and concise explanation. Most religions are
|
||
139 just half assed atempts.
|
||
140
|
||
141 Onward and downward.
|
||
142
|
||
143 An Astral Dreamer
|
||
144 &*&*&*&*`s
|
||
145
|
||
009=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/19/89 22:17 Msg:4136 Call:22706 Lines:41
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146 KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Reality! Who needs it??????????????????
|
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147
|
||
148 I think the main problem that you're trying to deal with, Hagbard, is
|
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149 whether or not humanity can be considered a rational species. Are people
|
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150 genetically greedy and violent, or are they really peaceful at heart,
|
||
151 with society being the main factor causing all the problems in life?
|
||
152 Do are people so ingrained in the ways that they see around them, or can
|
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153 they really face the truth of a matter with an open mind and no
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154 preconceptions?
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155 Of course, these questions can never be answered, because society is
|
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156 nothing more than the people in it, and people think differently.
|
||
157 Some people are not prejudiced, open minded, and otherwise unset, and
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158 others are exactly the opposite. I think, however, that most of the
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159 people around are of the second type though. The problem is that it
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160 is the majority of the people that make a society, and if the majority
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161 is one which demands conformity, the society demands conformaty as well.
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162 Any society that demands conformity creates people that conform, who in
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163 turn demand conformity themselves, thus ingraining the society at large
|
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164 even more. It is an unfortunate spiral, but one that exhists nonetheless.
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165 The only hope for really original people is to find some happy medium
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166 between total rebellion (thereby opening oneself for punishment by
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167 the majority) or conformity (thereby losing oneself). Escape is possible
|
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168 (to a limited extent), but not very likely. My advice basically that of
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169 "to thine own self, be true" to which I usually add "f*ck the rest. What
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170 do they know?
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171
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172 As to being arrested for occupying federal lands, it is possible still
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173 to claim land in various states for a certain fee (I think about $20).
|
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174 This does show how our society operates though, to a certain extent.
|
||
175 You have to pay the government a certain amount to use and hold (does
|
||
176 anyone truly "own" anything?) land which originally belongs to the
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177 public that the government represents, when the public could probably
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||
178 care less whether or not you're on its land anyways (especially
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179 since the public has to get the permission of the government that
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180 represents its permission to use the land too).
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181
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182 KKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Kill them all and let God sort them out!!!!!!!!
|
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183
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||
184 So you don't want to go through 1.5 marriages, own 1.25 televisions and
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185 have 2.5 children? Why not?
|
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186
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||
010=Usr:4 Milchar 07/19/89 23:23 Msg:4137 Call:22707 Lines:5
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187 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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188 Because it's the fractions that get messy. I mean, the extra .25 TV would
|
||
189 just spark and smoke, causing a fire hazard. And I'll refrain from
|
||
190 commenting on the mess caused by the .5 child.
|
||
191 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Milch +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
011=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill 07/20/89 15:42 Msg:4138 Call:22724 Lines:34
|
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192 /*/*/*/*/*/*/*
|
||
193
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||
194 to M: I agree with your idea that evolution does not imply improvement,
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||
195 and that things which have evolved are not necessarily better than
|
||
196 their predecessors, however... (in my very best Capt. Kirk voice)
|
||
197 "Ummm, I have a question..."
|
||
198
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||
199 if...
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200 > As always, right and wrong depend only upon the current belief of
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||
201 > what is right and what is wrong. What is right and what is wrong changes
|
||
202 > with time and with the people's beliefs.
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203
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204 what is the meaning of...
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205 >Rightness or wrongness has never been attributed to
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206 >evolution. That is a human reaction in an attempt to try to use the
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207 >concept of evolution as validity for existance. This is what Hitler
|
||
208 >did and it rings the same way in your statement.
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||
209
|
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210 Under the definition of right and wrong you gave this seems to mean:
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211
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212 "At no time in history has the predominant belief attributed rightness
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213 or wrongness to evolution. To do so is to react in a manner typefying
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214 humans and to attempt to show that one's existance is 'right' by the
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215 fact that one has evolved, instead of basing one's worth on the current
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216 opinion of society. A former world leader (currently believed to be
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217 wrong) did this, and your statement suggests that you also do so,
|
||
218 and are therefore wrong."
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219
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220 Is this what you meant? Can society call itself 'right'?
|
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221 _
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222 "It's too bad that whole families have been torn /#)
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||
223 apart by something as simple as wild dogs." n n n (#/
|
||
224 -Jack Handey / ~~~ ~~~ \/
|
||
225 /*/*/*/*/*/*/* -swob (a Self-Willed Orange Blancmange) /___/___\___\
|
||
012=Usr:286 Jeff Marten 07/21/89 00:15 Msg:4139 Call:22736 Lines:45
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226
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227
|
||
228 {+}{+}{+}{+}
|
||
229
|
||
230 The Beaverton Chamber of Commerce has asked the contributors
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231 to Backwater Message Service II to help them with a very
|
||
232 special task.
|
||
233
|
||
234 Many communities in Washington County now have lovely carved
|
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235 wooden signs on major highways greeting visitors with a
|
||
236 quaint and cheerful slogan.
|
||
237
|
||
238 The City of Beaverton would like to ask your help in choosing
|
||
239 a slogan that best describes the special magic that is
|
||
240 BEAVERTON !
|
||
241
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||
242
|
||
243 BEAVERTON
|
||
244 Home of the Semi-Annual Left Turn Arrow
|
||
245
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||
246 BEAVERTON
|
||
247 Gateway To Aloha
|
||
248
|
||
249 BEAVERTON
|
||
250 The Lil' Town That TEK Built
|
||
251
|
||
252 BEAVERTON
|
||
253 Satan's Traffic Grid
|
||
254
|
||
255 BEAVERTON
|
||
256 Teen Breeding Ground for the Great Northwest
|
||
257
|
||
258 BEAVERTON
|
||
259 Gresham West
|
||
260
|
||
261 BEAVERTON
|
||
262 Malltown, U S A
|
||
263
|
||
264
|
||
265 -+|[ ThingFish ]|+-
|
||
266 How Can You Have Any Pudding If You Don't Eat Your Meat ?
|
||
267
|
||
268
|
||
269 {+}{+}{+}{+}
|
||
270
|
||
013=Usr:322 Stray Cat 07/21/89 05:53 Msg:4140 Call:22739 Lines:3
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271 The Groundwork for all faith is human woe ... He had a lover's quarrel
|
||
272 with the world.
|
||
273
|
||
014=Usr:287 Ralph Steadman 07/21/89 14:51 Msg:4141 Call:22747 Lines:79
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274 696969696969
|
||
275 APn 07/15/89 Copyright, 1989. The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
|
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276
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||
277 NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- Vice President Dan Quayle mistakenly credited a moo
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278 landing to a congressman convicted of a sex charge, amusing a crowd of Young
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||
279 Republicans at the group's national convention Saturday.
|
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280 "This next Thursday, July 20th, will be an historic date for America as
|
||
281 America celebrates the 20th anniversary of Neil Armstrong and Buz Lukens walkin
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282 on the moon," Quayle said.
|
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283 He meant to say Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin, who followed Armstrong to become the
|
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284 second person to walk on the moon on the Apollo 11 mission.
|
||
285 Donald "Buz" Lukens, a Republican congressman from Ohio, was convicted in Ma
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286 of having sex with a 16-year-old girl.
|
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287 Lukens, 58, was sentenced last month in Columbus to 30 days in jail and fine
|
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288 $500 on the misdemeanor charge of contributing to the unruliness of a minor. He
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289 is free on bond pending appeal.
|
||
290 Quayle, who spoke from index cards during remarks at the Nashville Conventio
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||
291 Center, appeared to realize his mistake after the crowd began laughing at the
|
||
292 reference to Lukens. The vice president did not correct himself but did exchang
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293 glances with his wife, Marilyn, who was also on the stage.
|
||
294 GOP Chairman Lee Atwater said he decided not to mention the gaffe when he
|
||
295 spoke to Quayle later, but the vice president brought it up.
|
||
296 "He said, `Buz Lukens, oooh,"' Atwater said, grimacing in imitation of
|
||
297 Quayle.
|
||
298 The convention of about 1,200 Young Republicans began Friday and ends Sunday
|
||
299
|
||
300 APn 07/19/89. The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
|
||
301 By RITA BEAMISH Associated Press Writer
|
||
302 WASHINGTON (AP) -- Just as Dan Quayle was settling comfortably into the vice
|
||
303 presidency, several fellows who helped put him there -- campaign advisers
|
||
304 borrowed from the Reagan entourage -- have provoked anger in the White House by
|
||
305 painting an unflattering portrait of his candidacy.
|
||
306 The old stories about Quayle being a lightweight, a foot-in-mouth campaigner
|
||
307 and a neophyte not up to the job he sought are revived in a new book, "Whose
|
||
308 Broad Stripes and Bright Stars? The Trivial Pursuit of the Presidency 1988," by
|
||
309 political columnists Jules Witcover and Jack Germond.
|
||
310 Derisive comments about Quayle's abilities come not from Democratic critics,
|
||
311 but from the GOP stable of advisers the Bush campaign assigned to help manage
|
||
312 Quayle -- among them political pros Stuart Spencer, Joseph Canzeri and James
|
||
313 Lake, all former advisers to President Reagan.
|
||
314 Their caustic assessments of Quayle's capabilities and their problems in
|
||
315 running his campaign paint a picture of a candidate who needed protection from
|
||
316 doing himself political harm.
|
||
317 Canzeri told the authors that Quayle "was like a kid. Ask him to turn off a
|
||
318 light, and by the time he gets to the switch, he's forgotten what he went for."
|
||
319 Canzeri said the handlers "knew we were going to have to script him."
|
||
320 Sometimes, the advisers said, Quayle exasperated and confounded them by
|
||
321 refusing to follow the script.
|
||
322 The book quotes Spencer as saying that he let Quayle scrap a prepared defens
|
||
323 speech in Chicago once and deliver his own rambling version so that the vice
|
||
324 presidential candidate would foul up publicly "and then we'll own him again."
|
||
325 Lake told of a time when "I just pushed him aside," to keep Quayle from
|
||
326 answering questions about his Vietnam-era National Guard service at a time when
|
||
327 it would have overshadowed George Bush's convention acceptance speech.
|
||
328 Longtime GOP consultant Ed Rollins, a former White House political director,
|
||
329 said any candid group of political people in town would have told the Bush team
|
||
330 that Quayle was a lightweight and should not be vice president.
|
||
331 President Bush is not happy about the characterizations.
|
||
332 "I find it offensive. I don't like it," he told reporters Tuesday. "That's
|
||
333 the ugly side of politics."
|
||
334 Bush noted Quayle has made two trips to Latin America for the administration
|
||
335 as well as heading the Space Council and contributing to Bush's morning staff
|
||
336 meetings.
|
||
337 "He's a good man and he deserves something better than a post-mortem kick in
|
||
338 the ... ankles," Bush said.
|
||
339 Ironically, the book comes out at a time when Quayle has received relatively
|
||
340 favorable portrayals in several media accounts.
|
||
341 Aside from an occasional gaffe -- he recently referred to moon-traveling
|
||
342 as riding in a car with his rear pressed against the side window.
|
||
343 Lee Atwater, Chairman of the Republican National Committee said, "It really
|
||
344 doesn't matter much how smart or competent J. Danforth Quayle may be, the
|
||
345 women voting the Republican ticket aren't too smart, and we expect them to vote
|
||
346 for him because he's cute. It's one of our steps to forcing a Republican
|
||
347 majority in the House of Representatives on the public. Besides most eligible
|
||
348 voters know the national elections have been fixed for years and know enough
|
||
349 not to vote. But I'm too tired to think right now, so please no more questions
|
||
350
|
||
351 696969696969696969
|
||
352
|
||
015=Usr:343 black art 07/22/89 20:06 Msg:4142 Call:22764 Lines:3
|
||
353 Not voting is not the answer. (They will just think you are appethetic.)
|
||
354 Vote no, "none of the above", "Mickey Mouse", Bill the Cat, or anyone else
|
||
355 that sounds fun. Remember: Voting just pisses them off!!!
|
||
016=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/22/89 20:52 Msg:4143 Call:22765 Lines:4
|
||
356
|
||
357 In the last two elections I voted for 'No Confidence' and 'Anarchy Now!'
|
||
358 Do they count?
|
||
359
|
||
017=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/22/89 22:51 Msg:4144 Call:22771 Lines:52
|
||
360 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
||
361 Jack,
|
||
362 You've restated what I said differently. I'm not sure what you are saying
|
||
363 in it though since I don't know if you mean to have concepts hidden between
|
||
364 the lines. So let me phrase it in my own way;
|
||
365 Those who have presented the concept of evolution and thereby present the
|
||
366 defintion of evolution never applied the concept of right or wrong to the
|
||
367 concept of evolution. Those who are either unfamilur with the concept or
|
||
368 simply wish to use it to justify their own actions have applied the concept
|
||
369 of "rightness" to it in relation to their own actions. One in particular
|
||
370 (Hitler) who is currently considered "wrong" used the concept of evolution
|
||
371 as a mechanism to support the rightness of his actions. To do so is
|
||
372 not a valid statement. It is like saying a rock is right or wrong.
|
||
373 How can a rock have a moral right or wrong concept attached to it's
|
||
374 existance?" It is incorrect to apply a moral judgment to the existance
|
||
375 of a thing. It exists. It is actions that we apply moral definitions to.
|
||
376
|
||
377 "Can a society call itself 'right'?" Certainly. A society is but a
|
||
378 composite of actions which are defined as being either right or wrong.
|
||
379 Society is but a collection of rules regarding actions. When we do
|
||
380 something that society defines as being wrong, then we are considered
|
||
381 wrong and punished. When we do something considered right, then we are
|
||
382 applauded.
|
||
383 The defintions by which society operates change as the beliefs of
|
||
384 those in that society change. Consider that at one time society
|
||
385 considered it accetable to own other people (slaves). That belief
|
||
386 has changed. It is no longer acceptable as a belief (though it is still
|
||
387 practiced in other forms which superficially hide that it is slavery).
|
||
388 In some societies it is not only considered accetable to eat people,
|
||
389 but in some cases it is considered an honerable thing to do. Yet
|
||
390 in the current general belief system of the majority of the societies
|
||
391 in the world it is considered a horibly wrong thing to do. Many have
|
||
392 even gone so far as to state that it is an instinct not to want to eat
|
||
393 people. There is more than adquate evidence though to disprove that.
|
||
394 It is rather a learned reaction. We are told from birth that it is wrong.
|
||
395 It is never brought forth that it might be "right". Even when we discuss
|
||
396 the societies that practic canibalism we do so with the pointed statement
|
||
397 of how wrong and barbaric they are.
|
||
398 Does this mean that I'm going to have a nice big helping of mother-in-law
|
||
399 tonight? No, I'm throughly trained by the society I live in to find that
|
||
400 concept to be revolting. I do however recognise that it is a trained
|
||
401 response.
|
||
402 Is it OK to kill someone? The first thing we say is, no. But what if it is
|
||
403 in self defense? Then we say, well, OK, self defense is OK. But what
|
||
404 about war? Is it OK to kill the enemy even though he may not be trying to
|
||
405 kill me perosnally? Well, yes it's OK, if he doesn't, one of his
|
||
406 countrymen might. You're fighting a nameless hord that are all the same.
|
||
407 We create rules to allow us to live with out collective beliefs, and
|
||
408 then warp them to deal with situations where the rules don't work
|
||
409 (is it any wonder that the soldiers themselves come out with a warped
|
||
410 view of the world?).
|
||
411 --------------------------- M ---------------------------------------
|
||
018=Usr:84 Michael Miller j 07/23/89 11:28 Msg:4145 Call:22778 Lines:19
|
||
412 &*&*&*&*`s
|
||
413 An interesting view M, and one I largly agree with. It is often interesting to
|
||
414 look at the compromises one makes. Why are these compromises neccasary?
|
||
415 Ussually it is because of an assumption we make about the world. Right or
|
||
416 wrong, these assumptions bind us to certain actions, and force us to
|
||
417 justify ourselves when we wish to break them.
|
||
418 ]It seems that to make any sort of assumption is to bind oneself to a
|
||
419 narrower path in life. This is not always bad, as it has allowed our specias
|
||
420 to be very succesfull. But this success can also be our defeat, because
|
||
421 we are rapidly eliminating all other forms of competition. At that point
|
||
422 what is left? Will we turn upon each other? Isn't this very thing happening
|
||
423 today?
|
||
424
|
||
425 Of course this competion is not a new thing, but it seems that in our
|
||
426 sociaty atleast it is being applied more and more to other people.
|
||
427
|
||
428 An Astral Dreamer
|
||
429 &*&*&*&*'s
|
||
430
|
||
019=Usr:277 Schizo 07/23/89 16:14 Msg:4146 Call:22782 Lines:13
|
||
431 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@
|
||
432 What is right? what am I typing? How do you know what I want you to
|
||
433 think when you read this? How could you possibly understand what I am typing?
|
||
434 It's questions like this that prompt men to make silly rules that are usually
|
||
435 critisized by 99% of the world's population. The one question I havn't heard
|
||
436 the answer to yet is: What is the purpose of humanity? If we had some overall
|
||
437 goal in mind we could make rules that were much more logical than what we have
|
||
438 today (Globally). If our goal is to prove the most successful form of
|
||
439 government/economy by having wars every so often to prove which is better then
|
||
440 so be it, it's the will of the people. This doesn't sound like a very good
|
||
441 goal to me, but it does happen to be the one that the world seems to be
|
||
442 running on right now.
|
||
443 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@
|
||
020=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/23/89 20:49 Msg:4147 Call:22783 Lines:8
|
||
444 To above: Sounds like you need to take a course in comparative religon.
|
||
445 One of the primary purposes of religon is to answer the question "Why
|
||
446 am I here?" For some people they can find the answer in the belief system
|
||
447 presented by a particular religon. I personally have not been able to
|
||
448 accept the belief systems presented because it requires acceptance of
|
||
449 a belief system about theworld that goes counter to my own. It does
|
||
450 however provide the answer for some people.
|
||
451 ---------------------------------- M --------------------------------------
|
||
021=Usr:219 Friar Mossback 07/23/89 23:21 Msg:4148 Call:22786 Lines:33
|
||
452 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
|
||
453 The absolute question. "Why am I here."
|
||
454 It really can't be answered with logic or reasoning, Ayn Rand aside, nor
|
||
455 can faith be the only answer. I can have faith all I want about something
|
||
456 that is not apparent, but if I feel a plane will fly when it has exceeded
|
||
457 the critical angle of attack for the wing, then no faith will keep me in
|
||
458 the sky.
|
||
459 Religion must be logical, internally at least. You can have magic, or
|
||
460 miracles, but they must be consistent. You can't say god is all good and
|
||
461 then say god is all powerful and then have a devil or d'evil about. Those
|
||
462 concepts are internally inconsistent.
|
||
463 To say that god is just and merciful is possible, but then we have to
|
||
464 redefine our concepts of justness and mercy. It might be a lot easier if
|
||
465 we made god less than all powerful.
|
||
466 Religion does provide hope. That is good. But it also provides hatred,
|
||
467 more burning than any nationalism has ever been. Witness the hatred of
|
||
468 the muslims for all that is not islamic. See the fundamentalist christians
|
||
469 rail against the homosexual community, saying AIDS is god's punishment. See
|
||
470 the catholic church brand as permanent sinners those who would perform a
|
||
471 surgical procedure.
|
||
472 It is easier for a religion to thrive amidst poverty and grief. When a
|
||
473 person's belly is empty, he hears any voice that can help. For a time.
|
||
474 When the help is not forthcoming, the hope turns to hatred, just as fervent.
|
||
475 It may take time, generations even, but it does happen.
|
||
476 It is only through self awareness and enlightenment that we can see what
|
||
477 a mess we have made of this world, and only then can we realize that it
|
||
478 was ours to mess up. We can have others. We can try again. Perhaps the
|
||
479 next time we will try the world with no pain a friend of ours wishes for.
|
||
480 Perhaps the one where we can all fly, that I wish for. Or maybe another one
|
||
481 just like this one that we can do better this time.
|
||
482 I know, just ramblings of a deranged man, but even this has its logic.
|
||
483 [][][][][][][][][][][][][] Friar [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
|
||
484
|
||
022=Usr:277 Schizo 07/24/89 00:45 Msg:4149 Call:22789 Lines:5
|
||
485 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@
|
||
486 Merry Christmas! Ho ho ho and all that feces.
|
||
487 Now imagine that in the Southern Hemisphere Christmas actually does come
|
||
488 in the middle of Summer!
|
||
489 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@
|
||
023=Usr:84 Michael Miller j 07/24/89 13:09 Msg:4150 Call:22796 Lines:18
|
||
490 &*&*&*&*'s
|
||
491 John Dalmas writes some rather cosmic/interesting books in the sci-fi/fantasy
|
||
492 field, must reads.
|
||
493
|
||
494 As to why we are here, I would say that we will probably never really know. It
|
||
495 is possible that if we exist after death, that the answer is there, but I
|
||
496 suspect that even if there is 'life' after death, we will still not have the
|
||
497 answer. It seems to me that the world works on many different levels, and
|
||
498 under different scales, things look very different. Why should the rest of
|
||
499 the universe be any different? Perhaps those above us quest for the meaning
|
||
500 of life, wondering why they are there, and what their purpose is. And perhaps
|
||
501 beyond them is another group of beings, etc.
|
||
502
|
||
503 Infinity.
|
||
504
|
||
505 An Astral Dreamer
|
||
506 &*&*&*&*'s
|
||
507
|
||
024=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/24/89 21:57 Msg:4151 Call:22809 Lines:39
|
||
508 Many Eastern religons believe in reincarnation, in particular tied to
|
||
509 a increasing spiritual assendance. Usually going through stages of
|
||
510 life as various forms of animals. This is also why they often revere
|
||
511 animals. After all, it could very well be an incarnation of your
|
||
512 one of your future desendants.
|
||
513 This incarnation bit expands beyond just being human. There are usually
|
||
514 spiritual levels beyond just the human level. The general leason taught
|
||
515 seems to be that we are here to learn how to be a better individual.
|
||
516 If you screw up, you get sent back to a lower life form for remedial
|
||
517 training. when you do good you get to advance to the next level of life.
|
||
518
|
||
519 Even so, I've generally not seen a religon state the overall meaning of
|
||
520 existance. They tend to concentrate on the here and now because that they
|
||
521 can give answers to. "Your here to promote the glory of God, etc..."
|
||
522 But once you die, you go to Heaven and live happily ever after
|
||
523 (assuming you've been a good little boy or girl). That is usually a
|
||
524 recurrent theme in all religons. But they never really cover what
|
||
525 "happily ever after" is. When pressed the best you get is "you'll
|
||
526 know when you get there."
|
||
527 Of course the future is something that most people will accept
|
||
528 as being unknown when stated in the right way, and the religous
|
||
529 organizations have had thousands of years to learn how to say it.
|
||
530 It is the here and now that mostpeople want answers to.
|
||
531 One of the reasons people tend to get caught up in religon after
|
||
532 some personal disaster is because the first reaction is "why me? What
|
||
533 I do to deserve this?" And the religous organization is right there with
|
||
534 the answer, "because you are a sinful person and God is teaching you a
|
||
535 leason, but if you accept my belief system He will forgive you and
|
||
536 you will be saved." Stated often enough, and having the lack of any
|
||
537 other explaination, some people will accept this and take the belief system
|
||
538 as their own. For some people this actually works, it pulls them out
|
||
539 of a downward self destructive spiral. That is the one thing a religon is
|
||
540 good for, throwing out a lifeline to pull in someone who needs an
|
||
541 anchor of suppor tin their life. The problem is that this is also the
|
||
542 negative aspect since the religon is unwilling to let go when the person
|
||
543 has out grown the need for that support, so they use a multitude of
|
||
544 brainwashing technics to insure that the person is unable to break
|
||
545 away from the tight circular thought patterns they set up.
|
||
546 --------------------------------- M -------------------------------------
|
||
025=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill 07/24/89 23:15 Msg:4152 Call:22813 Lines:62
|
||
547 /*/*/*/*/*/*/*
|
||
548 The following is some thoughts on the discussion up to the "comparative
|
||
549 religion" point... I'm gonna have to think about the rest of this for a
|
||
550 while...
|
||
551 /*/*/*/*/*/*/*
|
||
552 M:
|
||
553 Oops, (should have made this more clear) I'm not Jack, he's just the
|
||
554 one who wrote the quote at the end of the article.
|
||
555 I tried my best to keep my own ideas out of the paraphrase. I was
|
||
556 attempting to construct an example to illustrate why I disagreed with the
|
||
557 first statement. I thought it best to use something from the article
|
||
558 (which you already accept as true) rather than to make up something which
|
||
559 you may or may not agree with.
|
||
560 I guess I see right and wrong as something that exists already, and
|
||
561 that people are trying to figure out, instead of being something they
|
||
562 define for themselves. I think that's why people have and have had
|
||
563 different views of what is right, and will continue to update their
|
||
564 views as they learn more about morality.
|
||
565 I don't think the differing answers to the question of killing shows
|
||
566 that we have taken a rule and kludged it. I think it is more like three
|
||
567 views of the same thing. If you ask whether 2+2=11, my first answer is
|
||
568 no, but if you say, "what if the numbering system is ternary?" then I say
|
||
569 yes. The answer has changed, not because the first answer was wrong
|
||
570 within its context, but because the context has changed. We haven't
|
||
571 "warped" addition to suit our purposes, we have uncovered another aspect
|
||
572 of mathematics.
|
||
573
|
||
574 AD:
|
||
575 I suppose the only reason we make assumptions or compromises is
|
||
576 that we deem them necessary or valuable. We bind ourselves to certain
|
||
577 actions because we feel they are better than other actions. When we
|
||
578 wish to do something that would counter one or more of our assumptions,
|
||
579 we must logically justify it. I think this is a good thing. Otherwise
|
||
580 we become hypocritical. Even if people define their own moralities (and
|
||
581 everyone *does* have to work with what they've got), hypocrisy is wrong.
|
||
582
|
||
583 SCHIZO (nice Morse):
|
||
584
|
||
585 I like Cicero better: "Men were brought into existance for the sake
|
||
586 of men that they might do one another good."
|
||
587
|
||
588 But you're right. I can say nothing about what anybody else is
|
||
589 thinking. I may think that their conclusion is wrong, but I can't say
|
||
590 they made an error in finding it, since I don't know their assumptions.
|
||
591 For all I know, the cannibals are doing what they think is the best
|
||
592 thing to do. This doesn't make it right to eat people, but it does
|
||
593 exempt them from fault in doing so.
|
||
594
|
||
595 M: I probably wouldn't go around looking at religions unless I felt some-
|
||
596 thing lacking in my beliefs. "This above all: to thine own self be
|
||
597 true." If you find fault with your belief system - remedy it! Maybe
|
||
598 you will find the remedy in adopting a new belief system. Maybe it
|
||
599 will come by changing your view of something. Whatever happens, you
|
||
600 will inevitably find a better truth than you had before, whether you
|
||
601 augment your beliefs or reject a portion of them. But if you find
|
||
602 nothing wrong with the system you have, I see no reason to change it.
|
||
603
|
||
604 "Too bad you can't buy a voodoo globe so that you could make the _
|
||
605 Earth spin real fast and freak everybody out." /#)
|
||
606 -Jack Handey, "Deep Thoughts" n n n (#/
|
||
607 / ~~~ ~~~ \/
|
||
608 */*/*/*/*/*/*/ -swob (a Self-Willed Orange Blancmange) /___/____\__\
|
||
026=Usr:286 Jeff Marten 07/25/89 02:16 Msg:4153 Call:22818 Lines:24
|
||
609
|
||
610
|
||
611 {+}{+}{+}{+}
|
||
612
|
||
613 Hoo Boy...Let's lighten this up.....
|
||
614 F I S H N E W S
|
||
615 Dateline : Rashneesheland
|
||
616
|
||
617 { Long since let loose from the hoosegow, sprung from the
|
||
618 cooler and out of the pokey, Ma Anan Sheela's been out of
|
||
619 jail long enough to get ready for more trouble. Those wacky
|
||
620 gurus are gassin' up the Lear Jets and gettin' set for
|
||
621 another round of Hindu highjinx. Better haul that homestead
|
||
622 off the real estate listings and lay low 'cos the robed
|
||
623 Rashneeshees are lookin' for a ranch in YOUR town and they
|
||
624 wanna poke YOU in the butt with a syringe full of the
|
||
625 Bagwan's special salad dressing. Run for your lives !
|
||
626
|
||
627 -+|[ ThingFish ]|+-
|
||
628 Gimme That Ole Time Religion
|
||
629
|
||
630
|
||
631 {+}{+}{+}{+}
|
||
632
|
||
027=Usr:116 Michael Gray 07/25/89 04:01 Msg:4154 Call:22819 Lines:8
|
||
633 __________________________________________________
|
||
634 swob: This might be old news, but could you tell
|
||
635 this recently returned BW-vet what the
|
||
636 graphic illustration is that appends your
|
||
637 entries? I've tried and can't figure it.
|
||
638 ______________________________________________mg__
|
||
639@
|
||
640@
|
||
028=Usr:287 Ralph Steadman 07/25/89 10:49 Msg:4155 Call:22822 Lines:100
|
||
641 696969696969
|
||
642 SMOKE, SMOKE, SMOKE THAT CIGARETTE--`DOONESBURY' DRAWS SMOKERS:-7/
|
||
643 In a June 9 "Doonesbury" strip, cartoonist Gary Trudeau tweaked the
|
||
644 tobacco industry for using ads that he says urge kids to smoke. His cartoon
|
||
645 character, "Mr. Butts," points to a coupon from the Tobacco Institute for free
|
||
646 cigarettes for the underaged. In just one week, the cigarette manufacturer's
|
||
647 association has gotten 200 of the coupons, many filled out by adolescents.
|
||
648 Lee Salem, editorial director for Universal Press Syndicate that sells
|
||
649 "Doonesbury," says he's surprised by the response a July 9 strip on cigarette
|
||
650 advertising received when hundreds of kids sent in coupons for free cigarette
|
||
651 samples. But it proves Trudeau's point, he says. It's an example of the
|
||
652 problem Trudeau sought to expose: Children are vulnerable to cigarette
|
||
653 advertising.
|
||
654 The Tobacco Institute is upset about the free-sample requests youngsters
|
||
655 are making in response to a June 9 "Doonesbury" strip. The institute doesn't
|
||
656 distribute cigarettes, says spokesperson Brennan Dawson. Moreover, the
|
||
657 industry does not advocate children smoking. The Institute is mailing each
|
||
658 respondent a brochure that says smoking should remain an adult custom.
|
||
659 TEENS LIGHT UP BY EXAMPLE:-7/25/89
|
||
660 Teenagers who smoke start because they see their friends and parents
|
||
661 lighting up, a new survey found. Response Research of Chicago questioned more
|
||
662 than 1,000 teens who smoked, and found peer and parental example was the main
|
||
663 reason they started smoking. Average age of first-time smokers: 13. Most of
|
||
664 the teens said they bought cigarettes over the counter, seldom using vending
|
||
665 machines.
|
||
666 Congress is considering legislation that would severely limit cigarette
|
||
667 advertising and limit the sale of cigarettes to minors. The House subcommittee
|
||
668 on Transportation and Hazardous Materials will begin hearing testimony Tuesday
|
||
669 on House Resolution 1250. Scheduled to testify: health officials, cigarette
|
||
670 manufacturers and industry experts.
|
||
671
|
||
672 HILLS DEFENDS LOBBYING PIERCE:-7/18/89
|
||
673 U.S. Trade Representative Carla Hills Monday defended lobbying ex-HUD
|
||
674 Secretary Samuel Pierce. Hills said she met with Pierce in 1985 after two HUD
|
||
675 officials refused to lift limits on a finance firm whose bad loans have cost
|
||
676 more than $500 million. "... I have never abused the use of access," Hills,
|
||
677 HUD secretary from 1975-77, told a House subcommittee investigating the HUD
|
||
678 scandalc.
|
||
679 FORMER HUD HONCHOS GAVE TO GOP:-7/24/89
|
||
680 Two former Housing and Urban Development officials who have been severely
|
||
681 criticized for allegedly using inside information to garner $130 million in
|
||
682 HUD housing contracts contributed heavily to the campaigns of key GOP
|
||
683 politicians. Recipients of $1,000-$2,000 include: Sens. John Danforth, R-Mo.;
|
||
684 John Heinz, R-Pa.; Robert Kasten, R-Wis.; Steve Symms, R-Idaho; and Alphonse
|
||
685 D'Amato, R-N.Y.
|
||
686 Department of Housing and Urban Development Secretary Jack Kemp's ill-
|
||
687 fated presidential campaign received funds from Philip Winn, a former HUD
|
||
688 official criticized for using inside information to garner contracts, reports
|
||
689 Gannett News Service. Kemp received $2,000 in campaign contributions from
|
||
690 Winn, a former undersecretary for housing and now ambassador to Switzerland.
|
||
691 HUD INVESTIGATION CRITICIZED:-7/25/89
|
||
692 Investigators in the HUD scandal attacked the Justice Department Monday
|
||
693 for not pubsuing its own investigation of fraud. "They're saying, `If any of
|
||
694 you catch a crook, we'll prosecute,' " said Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass. The
|
||
695 comments came after the department decided not to prosecute ex-HUD worker
|
||
696 Thomas Demery for his work for a charity whose donors included developers with
|
||
697 HUD business.
|
||
698
|
||
699 As Lee Atwater, chairman of the National Republican Committee said: "We'll
|
||
700 continue to federally subsidize the tobacco industry so they can hook the
|
||
701 young, then, we'll rip off HUD so they can sleep in the streets, so if the
|
||
702 lung cancer doesn't get them, pneumonia will. Then we'll spend the rest of the
|
||
703 country's resources on the B-2 and a trip to Mars. It is this kind of logic
|
||
704 and concern for the American public that will insure us a Republican majority
|
||
705 in the House of Representatives again." (Or actions to that effect)
|
||
706
|
||
707 AIR FORCE FLIES STEALTH:-7/18/89
|
||
708 The B-2 Stealth bomber completed what Air Force officials called a
|
||
709 "picture perfect" first flight from Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., Monday.
|
||
710 The price tag for each plane is about $530 million. Earlier tests had been
|
||
711 delayed until Monday due to a low fuel pressure reading.
|
||
712 Congress remains unconvinced about the B-2 "stealth" bomber despite
|
||
713 Monday's successful first flight of $530 million plane. The next showdown over
|
||
714 the B-2 will come later this month when the House votes on the 1990 defense
|
||
715 budget. Already, the House Armed Services Committee carved $800 million from
|
||
716 the Air Force's $4.7 billion B-2 request.
|
||
717 CONGRESS ADDRESSES B-2 MONEY:-7/25/89
|
||
718 Congress picks up debate Tuesday on a $305 billion defense bill that pits
|
||
719 military might against fiscal frugality. Even as the House and Senate
|
||
720 considered the measure Monday, President Bush and his deputies were lobbying
|
||
721 hard for the costly B-2 Stealth bomber. The radar-eluding aircraft's fate will
|
||
722 be known Wednesday, when the House votes to trim Bush's B-2 request or
|
||
723 mothball the program.
|
||
724
|
||
725 DEBATE - SPACE USA TODAY'S OPINION:
|
||
726 To be sure, earthly problems could use the money we'd spend in space. They
|
||
727 are reasons to keep the space program in perspective, somewhere between the 1
|
||
728 percent of our budget it uses now and the 4 percent at the peak of the Apollo
|
||
729 program. But they are not reasons to root ourselves to Earth.
|
||
730 OTHER VIEWS:
|
||
731 JOSEPH P. MARTINO, senior scientist at the University of Dayton Research
|
||
732 Institute: Twenty years ago, Neil Armstrong made "one giant leap for mankind."
|
||
733 Since then, manned space exploration has been one giant leap forward, two
|
||
734 giant leaps backward. What went wrong? In a word, NASA.
|
||
735 JULIANNE MALVEAUX, economist and writer: Where do we go from the moon? To
|
||
736 Mars? If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we eliminate hunger, cure
|
||
737 cancer or curb the spread of the fatal AIDS virus? These goals are as
|
||
738 attainable as a Mars walk or a space shuttle.
|
||
739 ..or maybe even more so....
|
||
740 696969696969696969
|
||
029=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/25/89 12:54 Msg:4156 Call:22824 Lines:18
|
||
741
|
||
742 KKKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Politicians run rampant! What else is new?????
|
||
743
|
||
744 Things just get better and better, don't they? Do you realize that most
|
||
745 of the advertisements put out by the tobacco industry are targeted (I do
|
||
746 mean *targeted* ) at people under the age of 14? I mean, who but a child
|
||
747 would be impressed by the camel adds stating "Smooth Character"? All
|
||
748 they are saying is "Smoke and you'll be cool" to the underaged. After
|
||
749 all, cigarrettes are killing off their old vict.. er customers, and they
|
||
750 need a new batch to continue ripping off. The average 13 year old
|
||
751 probably has a good 20 years ahead of him/her to throw away money on
|
||
752 cigarrettes before they finally kill him/her.
|
||
753
|
||
754 And to think that we actually give our tax money to companies that do
|
||
755 this sort of thing.
|
||
756
|
||
757 KKKKKKurfur Redlig | Doonesbury is right. Kids are in danger!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
||
758
|
||
030=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/25/89 20:12 Msg:4157 Call:22832 Lines:70
|
||
759 swob,
|
||
760 I'm not saying that you should go looking at other religons because you
|
||
761 need to change your belief system, rather you should look at them so
|
||
762 that you can better understand why they think the way they do.
|
||
763 I have my own belief system that I am comfortable with, but I also like
|
||
764 to observe other belief systems so that I can better understand where they
|
||
765 are coming from. The canibal thing is a good case in point. By our belief
|
||
766 system it is wrong. You even went so far as to state that "This doesn't
|
||
767 make it right to eat people, but it does exempt them from fault in doing so."
|
||
768 Yet if you were to study the culture, you would find that they think the
|
||
769 same thing of you for NOT eating a dead loved one. To them it would be
|
||
770 the same as not showing up for the funeral of a loved one. It shows that
|
||
771 you have no respect for the person. Thus if you did respct the person,
|
||
772 YOU would be wrong in their belief system to NOT eat the person.
|
||
773 In your belief system it is wrong to eat the person, in their belief
|
||
774 system it is worng NOT to eat the person.
|
||
775 I don't agree that right and wrong are something that exist outside
|
||
776 of the human mind. Morality is a distinctly human thing. We created it
|
||
777 to control our society. It's 'right' to do this, its 'wrong' to do that.
|
||
778 But, over the years what is defined as right and what is defined as wrong
|
||
779 has changed. The definition can even change within our own minds depending
|
||
780 on circumstance. I know one person at work who considers it very wrong
|
||
781 to pirate software...assuming it is software that can be traced back
|
||
782 to him. If it is coming to him, then that's another story.
|
||
783 Now some people would consider that to be hypocrisy (myself included),
|
||
784 yet to him it is perfectly acceptable beleif system. For him it is right.
|
||
785 Thus he has his own morality. I have no desire to change his belief
|
||
786 system, just as I have no desire for anyone else to demand that I change
|
||
787 my belief system. I do have concern as a friend that he understand the
|
||
788 consiquences of his actions in regard to society as a whole. If he
|
||
789 understands the major social belief system and is still happy working
|
||
790 with his own morality, then I'm happy.
|
||
791 I have no problem with people having a differnt belief system, in
|
||
792 fact, I desire it, it is what makes life what it is, interesting. It
|
||
793 allows us to grow. What bothers me is when others refuse to accept that
|
||
794 there ARE other belief systems that just might not match what they
|
||
795 believe. That they are not right or wrong, they are mearly different.
|
||
796 To paraphrase an old American hero, 'I ma not agree with what you
|
||
797 believe, but I'll defend to the death your right to believe it!"
|
||
798 There is one other aspect that does bother me though, and I will usually
|
||
799 point it out when I see it, it is when a person uses one line of thought
|
||
800 to dispute something counter to their belief system, and then turn right
|
||
801 around and use the very same argument to support their own belief system.
|
||
802 This is usually indicative that they are echoing someone elses thoughts
|
||
803 and have not really thought about it themselves. That's why I got into
|
||
804 this whole evolution debate in the first place, I saw an argument
|
||
805 about evolution being defined as being wrong to be used to support
|
||
806 a belief system, and then turning right around and using it to support
|
||
807 their own point.
|
||
808 I have a desire for people to truely understand the beliefs that they
|
||
809 promote and that it not just be an echo from someone else. If you support
|
||
810 it, then you should understand the basis behind it and why you support it.
|
||
811 That's why I like to know about other forms of belief, it allows me to
|
||
812 better understand my own belief system. Occasionally I will change a
|
||
813 portion of my beleif system because I have found new and better information,
|
||
814 and other times I am simply able to reconfirm and expand on what I do belief.
|
||
815 Seeking out information, questioning the structure of the current system
|
||
816 are how we grow. When you do not accept that it can change, then you
|
||
817 will not seek new information that might change the structure. When
|
||
818 youdo not seek new information you become locked in a stagnant
|
||
819 information system, and that means that you cannot grow.
|
||
820 But then, you see, that is a part of my own belief system. A part of
|
||
821 my own answer t the age old question of "why am I here?" Learning is
|
||
822 something that is important to me. Not just one specific field, in fact,
|
||
823 I tend to not get very deep in any field because it prevents me from
|
||
824 being able to learn in other areas. I am always seeking out new
|
||
825 information, learning about other ways of thinking, other ways of doing,
|
||
826 other ways of existing. The beauty is in the infinant variety.
|
||
827 I am at my worst when I am unable to think and learn.
|
||
828 --------------------------------- M ------------------------------------
|
||
031=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill 07/26/89 01:39 Msg:4158 Call:22841 Lines:121
|
||
829 /*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
|
||
830 > The cannibal thing is a good case in point. By our belief
|
||
831 > system it is wrong. You even went so far as to state that "This doesn't
|
||
832 > make it right to eat people, but it does exempt them from fault in doing so."
|
||
833 > Yet if you were to study the culture, you would find that they think the
|
||
834 > same thing of you for NOT eating a dead loved one.
|
||
835
|
||
836 I probably wasn't too clear here. What I meant by this is that they
|
||
837 *haven't done anything wrong* if they really think it is the right thing
|
||
838 to do. The "doesn't make it right" clause might be better phrased as
|
||
839 "doesn't make it right or wrong" since the *actual* morality of an act
|
||
840 has nothing to do with whether they are being hypocritical about their
|
||
841 beliefs. If they honour their dead by eating them, so be it! Indeed at
|
||
842 this point I would say it is a matter of taste (*please* pardon the pun)
|
||
843 rather than of morality, since it is the honouring that is the good thing.
|
||
844
|
||
845 (Incidentally, my first impression was that they killed people in order
|
||
846 to eat them, and considered this to be good. While this is an extreme
|
||
847 case, I would still say they were not to blame, so long as they were
|
||
848 going along with their beliefs.)
|
||
849
|
||
850 > I know one person at work who considers it very wrong
|
||
851 > to pirate software...assuming it is software that can be traced back
|
||
852 > to him. If it is coming to him, then that's another story.
|
||
853
|
||
854 So long as he *really* *believes* that this is good, and his system is
|
||
855 coherent, his motives are good.
|
||
856
|
||
857 > Now some people would consider that to be hypocrisy (myself included),
|
||
858
|
||
859 I wouldn't if he doesn't *know* that he's doing anything wrong - that
|
||
860 is, if he's not violating his own rules (or fails to see that he is
|
||
861 violating his own rules) - then he is not being hypocritical, however
|
||
862 wrong his actions are. This may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but I
|
||
863 think it has to be this way. Since I know essentially nothing of what
|
||
864 this person is thinking, nor how he is coming up with these actions, I
|
||
865 can't blame him for doing them. If I am to believe in an objective
|
||
866 reality of good and bad at all, I must *NOT* say that wrong acts
|
||
867 necessarily come from malicious thinking. It would be like saying all
|
||
868 arithmetic errors are directly attributable to the deliberate actions of
|
||
869 those who calculate them. Hypocrisy can only only be truly known by
|
||
870 the hypocrite himself.
|
||
871
|
||
872 > yet to him it is perfectly acceptable belief system. For him it is right.
|
||
873
|
||
874 Perhaps it is, I cannot say.
|
||
875
|
||
876 > I do have concern as a friend that he understand the
|
||
877 > consequences of his actions in regard to society as a whole. If he
|
||
878 > understands the major social belief system and is still happy working
|
||
879 > with his own morality, then I'm happy.
|
||
880
|
||
881 As a member of society, he is of course obliged to obey the laws of
|
||
882 society, and to face the consequences if he does not. I would say this
|
||
883 is quite separate from whatever internal system he is using to guide and
|
||
884 justify his actions. In short, I agree.
|
||
885
|
||
886 > I have no problem with people having a different belief system, in
|
||
887 > fact, I desire it, it is what makes life what it is, interesting. It
|
||
888 > allows us to grow. What bothers me is when others refuse to accept that
|
||
889 > there ARE other belief systems that just might not match what they
|
||
890 > believe. That they are not right or wrong, they are merely different.
|
||
891
|
||
892 I do hope I'm not the target of this paragraph. I've never said that
|
||
893 there aren't other systems of belief that don't match mine. To do so
|
||
894 would be to ignore the facts. I have only said that I believe there
|
||
895 to be *something* that is right, and I intend to try my best to find
|
||
896 it. Whether I have done that already is obviously something I don't
|
||
897 know (though my experience inclines me to believe I haven't fully).
|
||
898 If I find at some future date that what I think now is partially or
|
||
899 totally wrong (this occurs *daily* in small ways), then I will change
|
||
900 what I think. But to say that nothing is right or wrong at all seems
|
||
901 to me to refute any *REASON* to change. Why on earth should I wish to
|
||
902 exchange one illusion for another? Surely not for the sake of variety?
|
||
903
|
||
904 > Occasionally I will change a
|
||
905 > portion of my belief system because I have found new and better information,
|
||
906 > and other times I am simply able to reconfirm and expand on what I do belief.
|
||
907 > Seeking out information, questioning the structure of the current system
|
||
908 > are how we grow.
|
||
909
|
||
910 Now I'm confused. This looks a lot like what I just said. If there
|
||
911 is no such concept as 'right' or 'wrong', 'good' or 'bad'. Then what
|
||
912 does 'better information' mean besides 'more good' or 'more true' or
|
||
913 'more logical' information? What does 'grow' mean except 'progress to a
|
||
914 better (not simply different) state'?
|
||
915
|
||
916 > When you do not accept that it can change, then you
|
||
917 > will not seek new information that might change the structure. When
|
||
918 > you do not seek new information you become locked in a stagnant
|
||
919 > information system, and that means that you cannot grow.
|
||
920
|
||
921 Ah, I see your point; perhaps I have neglected some of the various
|
||
922 religions (though I have read a bit of Confucius, the Bible, Cicero,
|
||
923 etc.). I'm always reading new material, and have a general idea
|
||
924 of many religions, as well as where I "get off" as to their teachings,
|
||
925 and why. Often after the "get off" point, I simply stopped looking
|
||
926 there. It made sense to me (still does), but your point is well-
|
||
927 taken. At present I find no great logical opposition to my belief
|
||
928 system, so I haven't been looking at others, but simply trying to
|
||
929 expand on the one I have. I do hope I'm not stagnating by not
|
||
930 actively seeking a *completely* new belief system, but do realize
|
||
931 that I must feel that I am on the right track, or I wouldn't believe
|
||
932 what I do in the first place. My beliefs are constantly changing,
|
||
933 though there are some I have held for a very long time.
|
||
934 I do, however, agree that I should read more about religions in
|
||
935 order to *understand* them, if not believe them. I suppose we are
|
||
936 doing that with this discussion (because if you get down to it, any
|
||
937 belief system is a 'religion').
|
||
938 But I wonder about your last statement. Obviously you see the
|
||
939 condtion of growth as more favourable that that of stagnation.
|
||
940 Or am I misunderstanding something?
|
||
941
|
||
942 > But then, you see, that is a part of my own belief system. A part of
|
||
943 > my own answer to the age old question of "why am I here?" Learning is
|
||
944 > something that is important to me.
|
||
945
|
||
946 Why? If not for the sake of truth? I'm not trying to badger here,
|
||
947 I'm truly interested in finding out why you find learning important.
|
||
948
|
||
949 >
|
||
032=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill 07/26/89 02:14 Msg:4159 Call:22842 Lines:21
|
||
950 > I am at my worst when I am unable to think and learn.
|
||
951 ^^^^^ ^^^^^
|
||
952 Then you see value in truth, right? Perhaps we are not so different
|
||
953 as we might think.
|
||
954
|
||
955 "One thing that makes me believe in UFOs is, _
|
||
956 sometimes I lose stuff." /#)
|
||
957 -Jack Handey, "Deep Thoughts" n n n (#/
|
||
958 / ~~~ ~~~ \/
|
||
959 */*/*/*/*/*/*/ -swob (a Self-Willed Orange Blancmange) /___/____\__\
|
||
960 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
961 ohyes, to mg, the illustration at right is a Blancmange from the planet
|
||
962 Skyron in the Galaxy of Andromeda. It is a (rather obscure) reference
|
||
963 to an old Monty Python sketch in which the Blancmanges turn all the
|
||
964 inhabitants of England into Scotsmen (who promptly march off to their
|
||
965 homeland) so that they (the blancmanges) may win Wimbledon (hence the
|
||
966 tennis racquet). In the end the would-be-victor is eaten by Mr. and
|
||
967 Mrs. Samuel Brainsample, also from the planet Skyron, who are
|
||
968 fortunately accustomed to such large blancmanges.
|
||
969 */*/*/*/*/*/*/
|
||
970 quick! somebody fill this disk!
|
||
033=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/26/89 10:24 Msg:4160 Call:22846 Lines:29
|
||
971
|
||
972 KKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!!!!!!!!!
|
||
973
|
||
974 swob,
|
||
975 I think you forgot to mention that the Blancmanges did not win
|
||
976 Wimbeldon, but rather, that it was won by Angus Podgorney, an unassuming
|
||
977 Scottish men's fashion designer (he manufactured kilts), thereby finally
|
||
978 defeating the plans of the pastries from outer space and becoming the
|
||
979 first Scottsman to win Wimbledon (as well as any other large international
|
||
980 sporting event).
|
||
981
|
||
982 In response to some of the previous comments in some of the previous
|
||
983 messages, I must state that a state of being good or bad does not
|
||
984 necessarily also mean better or worse. It was stated that for one to
|
||
985 believe in there being 'better information' they had to believe in the
|
||
986 concepts of good and bad. That is not necessarily true. Better
|
||
987 information could just mean that it was more accurate, from a more
|
||
988 reliable source, or made more sense. It does not have to be catagorized
|
||
989 as good because of its accuracy, only as more accurate than previous
|
||
990 data, and therefore better than previous data. Whether information is
|
||
991 'more gooder' or 'more badder' (for want of better expressions) depends
|
||
992 on what the reciever of the information wants to hear. If, during a war,
|
||
993 a general recieves information that half troops were dead, and there was
|
||
994 reliable evidence to back up this info (pictures etc.), while a wild
|
||
995 rumor earlier said that the general had only lost one eighth of his
|
||
996 troops, the info that half were dead would be regarded as better, but
|
||
997 'badder' information than the rumor.
|
||
998 I think I've rambled on enough for now. See you next disk!
|
||
999 KKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | At the top and at the bottom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|