612 lines
41 KiB
Plaintext
612 lines
41 KiB
Plaintext
LIST
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FILE ON
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MARGIN IS 22
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STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
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NUMBER OF LINES: 629
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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
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2 ******************** REMOVED: 7 NOV 83 *******************************
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3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
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4 ************************************************************
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5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
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6 THIS SYSTEM.
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7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
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8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
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9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
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10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
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11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
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12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
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13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
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14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
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15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
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16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
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17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
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18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
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19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
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20 use the replace command to replace the line.
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21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
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22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
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23 ========================================
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24
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25 TO ALL THOSE TI OWNERS
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26 WHAT HAPPENS TO US NOW. I THINK WE HAVE
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27 BEEN ABANDONED FOR CORPORATE PROFITS. I
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28 WONDER WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL THOSE SOFTWARE WRITERS THAT WERE GOING TO SELL
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29 TO FUTURE TI BUYERS?
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30
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31 BEAR
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32
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33 ****************************************
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34 Unfortunately, BAD, you continue to engage in a demented form of mental masturbation, the motivation for which currently
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35 escapes me. I had decided to allow the entire subject to drop a few disks ago, believing that you were beyond logic. I was,
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36 and am, right. You choose to claim that 'my opinions are those of a parasite' but you cited (and continue to cite) no proof.
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37 Indeed, you fall into the typical logic trap of stating that the 'absense of proof is the proof of absense.' You said
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38 that because I cited no proof that I was not a parasite, I must be one!!! Well, as even you should recognize, over 90% of the
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39 users of the system have similarly failed to provide such proof of non-parasited-ness, so why don't you accuse them? By your
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40 logic you would be correct in all such cases! What's wrong? Your logic fails for the same reason as a person who 'proves'
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41 God exists because no scientist has ever proved that he does not exist.
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42 And no, I didn't claim that I have never owed society ANYTHING, contrary to your rantings. However, I object to the
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43 enslavement of the population based on the small amount they may owe. (Example: Suppose I save your life, does that mean
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44 that you are my slave forever? Obviously not; any such claim on my part would be overstepping and distorting a FACT (that you
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45 wouldn't be alive without me) to come to a silly CONCLUSION (that you must work for me forever.) I merely point out that just
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46 because I wouldn't exist without Society, that doesn't mean that Society can claim my eternal enslavement.) Of course, you
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47 wanted to conclude that my statements were 'those of a parasite' so you deliberately misinterpreted them. Oh well...
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48 As you should be able to see by now, it is NOT MERELY NECESSARY that yo u claim or even prove that any particular person
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49 'owes society',' YOU must also prove that the extent to which he 'owes society' justifies whatever demands you care to make on
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50 him! So: even if I state that I owe society 'something,' you can't stretch that 'something' to mean 'everything.'
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51 Which brings me back to another item: In my last message to you, I asked you to state, for the record, the extent and
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52 degree of what you believe to be an individual's obligation to mankind (society, etc.) I am not surprised that you "forgot"
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53 to do this. My guess is that you have no clear understanding of your own opinions on this subject. So once again, I ask
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54 you to tell all the rest of us:
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55 To what extent are we obligated to society? How many dollar bills? How much blood? How many hours of work? In effect,
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56 I'm demanding that you quantitize your opinions! And I'm giving you free rein to state the extent; use any currency, time, or
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57 item as a value. If you want to claim that we owe society 15.7592 minutes of prayer per day, go ahead! Or 38.5 bushels of
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58 wheat? Fine! But even if you can't be so precise, I'd still like to know at least the character of such an obligation. What
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59 must we do for society? Smile to somebody else each day? Be kind to dogs? Raise our children to act like sheep, like many
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60 of us are? What?
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61 But watch out. You'd better make sure that a large fraction of people in society actually PAY what you claim they OWE.
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62 Why? If you clam, for example, that they owe their first-born son, and 99% of them don't pay off, then that's an excellent
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63 proof that the other 1% really don't owe that, either. Why should anyone be forced to pay off a 'debt to society' when nobody
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64 else does, either.
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65 And I openly invite anyone else to answer the same questions, too. Go ahead, use your imaginations. You have nothing to
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66 lose but the respect of everyone else. Here's a PREDICTION. Most, if not all, of the people who believe such an obligation
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67 is important will be too embarrassed to go into any detail concerning it, if for no other reason than they invoke it always as
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68 a hand-waving argument. But I say this: C'mon, somebody, please demonstrate that my prediction is wrong! (if you can)
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69 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon ::::::::::::::
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70 P.S. BAD: Lest you think I'm picking on you, notice that I haven't even begun to attack the substance of your arguments, only
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71 the logic. And I've simply asked you to state your beliefs, I have not (yet) refuted them! Go ahead, accuse me of doing the
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72 easy part first.......
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73 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
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74 Just remember....
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75
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76 All people are equal, no matter how stupid they are,
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77 or how much better you are than they.
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78 ::::::::::::::::::::::
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79 The above message presented by the PHOOEY...
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80 Pig Headed Onomonopolistic Oragutans for Equality in Yemen
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81 Jesee Jackson -- President
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82 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
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83 THERE WAS A GREAT MAN ONCE , WHO SENT HIS WISE MEN IN SEARCH OF ALL
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84 KNOWLEDGE. THE WISE MEN RETURNED SEVERAL YEARS LATER WITH MANY
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85 VOLUMES OF FACTS.THE GREAT MAN INSTRUCTED THE WISE MEN TO CONSOLIDATE
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86 THE INFORMATION AS MUCH ASPOSIBLE. AGAIN, AFTER SEVERAL YEARS THEY
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87 RETURNED. THE WISE MEN HAD DONE AS THEIR GREAT MAN HAD WANTED.
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88 ALL THE KNOWLEDGE IN THE WORLD HAD BEEN CONDENCED IN TO FIVE
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89 (5) SHORT WORDS ; THERE AINT NO FREE LUNCH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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90 MY ANSWER --BY BILL M.
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91 ..........................
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92 to Anon: the price society asks is defined by the society, not by an
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93 individual. the way society makes its demands known is called law.
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94 The price includes taxes. (As defined by law.) I am glad to hear you
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95 now recognise you do owe society something. I speak of your
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96 attitudes expressed, not your lack of expression, in particular
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97 your denial of the legality of taxes. The desirability is not in
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98 question, but as noted above about the free lunch.
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99 /////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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100 Ps
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101 Pam, you are right, I speak only of his expressed views, no more. Sorry
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102 for the exageration. As to definitions of God, it is interesting to
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103 read the Old Testament of the Bible, and see how the beliefs of the
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104 Hebrews changed & how they saw Him first as only one among many, but
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105 later He became omniscient, etc. But do't believe the descriptions
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106 of them as stone age saveages, remember this was the area where all
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107 science as we know it began. Even if their acts were correct about
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108 say, infectious diseases doesn't mean they knew what bacteria were, or
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109 had Godly help, only that they were able to see that avoiding
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110 sick places helped one stay healthy. I see much reading into the Bible.
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111 /////////////////////////////BAD, again\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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112 D:
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113 Ah yes, comfort! Beliefs are just that-- beliefs. Their relative trueness
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114 --as I spoke earlier-- is quite difficult to measure. I prefer to use the
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115 term comfort rather than *TRUE* because these beliefs we hold are measured
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116 more by how we feel about them than how they measure by some external
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117 standard. I find myself comfortable with my own beliefs, because i have
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118 enough internal evedence than they approach (for me) the *TRUTH*, although
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119 for you they might be like a set of ill-fitting robes. In like respect,
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120 i could adopt your set of beliefs, and work within them, although i suspect
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121 that they might bind a bit through the waist and shoulders.
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122
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123 I am often releived that this inn is metaphorical rather than physical.
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124 It would take little imagination to see some of the debaters dropping
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125 mugs of ale and drawing swords here. It is much more pleasant to be amused
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126 by a sharp wit than with a sharp blade.
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127
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128 Since no one wishes to change sides on the liberal vs conservative
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129 christian vs atheist vs other, could we add fuel to this fire by introducing
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130 the subjects of morals, ethics and law?
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131
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132 To what degree are these three subjects interrelated? Are they dependent
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133 on one another, or are they shades of the same subject. Can defiance of
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134 the law be moral or ethical or both? I feel that some of the harsh words
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135 between BAD and anon come from conflicts between their morals or ethics.
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136 (Don't we all live under the same or similar sets of laws?)
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137
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138 Like a sleepy patron at the innkeeper's table, i'll expose my offhand
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139 thoughts on the matter:
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140 i feel that morals are the personal code of conduct that we each feel
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141 impelled to follow. These are formed from our cultural conditioning; i.e.
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142 parents, school, and religion.
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143 Ethics are the social codes that give group approval or disapproval to
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144 the morals held by individuals in that group.
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145 Law is the socially codified set of ethics of a society -- formalized ethics
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146 if you will. Law is more likely to be written than either ethical codes
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147 or morals. Religions tend to prescribe moral codes, ethics as the group
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148 following of these moral codes, and law as the punishment for not following
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149 these moral codes. Secular governments tend to pass laws that prohibit
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150 certain actions and require others, then teach that ethics and morals requir
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151 e that everyone adhere to the law.
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152
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153 Enough for now-- someone else should have their say.
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154 --------------------Dusty----------------------------------------------
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155
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156
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157 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 2100 2-NOV-1983 [][][][][][][]
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158
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159 ANON: Just because 99% of the people do not pay a debt does not make
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160 the obligation any less valid. (In my opinion at least). In any case,
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161 I like your suggestion, I will smile at at least one stranger on a
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162 daily basis. It doesn't begin to pay what I feel is my debt, but it
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163 does tend to make one feel better.
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164 The problem, in its barest essence, is that no person does anything that
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165 that person does not feel will give her/him something greater in return.
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166 Even what appear to be charitable acts give you a sense of well being,
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167 like the smile-a-day concept above. I know that strangers can't help
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168 me in any tangible way, but by my actions to them, I can feel better.
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169 Same thing with taxes. We pay them, because we do not wish to go to jail.
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170 Even hurling insults and demands on BW, we do because of our needs, not
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171 to enlighten anyone for their benefit. One reason is the ability to
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172 convert someone to our way of thinking is to support our own beliefs.
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173 If there is anything that does not follow this law, I am not aware of it.
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174 Even Jesus Christ, if he does exist, died for our sins for his purposes,
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175 not ours.
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176 The purpose of this meandering, Anon, is to say - Your debt to society
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177 is just what you actually pay. What is the use of trying to collect
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178 more than that ? You won't pay it because there is no internal
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179 compunction to do so.
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180
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181 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] DJJ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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182
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183 PS d: give me a call at 245-xxxx some evening. If the BBS is up, try
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184 the Y option, I may be there, and I would like to chat. dj
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185
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186 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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187 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 Nov 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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188 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 21:44 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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189 I kept my promise to return, but Deb did not. So now I have to
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190 sludge home in the unrelenting sogginess >grumble, mutter<...instead
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191 she made a rendevous with a used car, because their wheezing, gasping
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192 contraption is about to crumple into an exhausted heap!
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193 Though I'd like to do more research on mutants, I'll toss in a
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194 stray quote I found from Theodosius Dobzhansky, cited as "a noted
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195 evolutionist": "Most mutants which arise in any organism are more
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196 or less disadvantages to their possessors...mutants that would make
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197 a major improvement of the normal organization in the normal environ-
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198 ments are unknown." Incidentally, I should make clear that I'm not
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199 disputing "the process of working out or developing" as evolution can
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200 be defined--therefore, insects that inherit DDT immunity, for instance,
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201 can be said to have 'evolved'--rather, it is the evolutional THEORY that
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202 claims that present creatures have their origin in preexisting types.
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203 The insect (I believe it was fruit flies in that study) remains the
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204 simple fruit fly; it has not become a bee or an ant.
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205 I ask for a believers' definition of evolution, if I may--?
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206 Meantime, the dictionary yields: "a process of continuous change
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207 from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better
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208 state: GROWTH" and at this I have to laugh, for I have heard much
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209 grousing about the sorry state of government, politics, business,
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210 religion, war, and education--to mention a few of men's exalted
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211 accomplishments--here at the Backwater Inn...there must be some
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212 logical explanation for this seeming digression--? Another point
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213 to ponder regards the staggering capacity of the brain that remains
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214 unused throughout a lifetime--estimated at a *billion* times more
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215 than is actually used. Why? If the evolution theory is true, this
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216 means that enormous demands were put on the human brain earlier in
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217 time by the environment so that he had to develop this capacity for
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218 survival. Why is this potential lying slack now? Doesn't the
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219 axiom: "What you don't use, you lose" apply to the brain, as well?
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220 Or is evolution moving backwards in the case of humans?
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221 (Yipes; I've unwittingly monopolized the floor again!)
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222 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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223 DJJ:
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224 I don't understand your statement, "Your debt to society is just what you
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225 actually pay.' I presume this applies to each one in the world, so doesn't that mean that it is impossible to pay to societ
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226 y less than one owes, since by your definition they are precisely equal? And therefore, that if by some method I manage to
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227 pay nothing to society some year, then by your definition, I owed nothing?
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228 Something tells me that isn't quite what you had in mind, but I just don't know. I'll wait until you elaborate.
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229
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230 BAD:
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231 At least you're toning down your statements. Keep in mind that there is a difference between legality and Constitutionality.
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232 I don't watch Johnny Carson much anymore, but every once in a while he used to have his writers pore through various lawbooks,
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233 both old and new, to find all sorts of stupid laws. The one example I remember is goes something like this: 'You cannot eat
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234 onions in a public place during daytime.' I assume the motivation of the writers of this law was to prevent bad breath, but
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235 such laws (as I recall, there were some laws which were even worse) clash with our current ideas concerning Constitutionality.
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236 Remember that no law can (should) be enforcible in a country if that law is unconstitutional. So if a tax law happens to
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237 have unconstitutional provisions in it, it should be unenforcible. Examine the statement, 'taxes are legal.' If one ignores
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238 the constitutionality issue, then that statement could be quite correct. After all, if some misguided legislator believes
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239 that one of the proper functions of government is to prevent bad breath among the citizens and is willing to pass such a law,
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240 can a tax law be far behind?
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241 So to answer the question, 'are taxes legal,' I would have to say it depends on the law(s) that are under consideration.
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242 That's not an interesting answer. A much more interesting question is, 'Are taxes constitutional?' I'd answer the question
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243 now, but I've already taken up too much time. I'll wait until tomorrow.
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244 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon :::::::::::::
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245 <><><><><><><<<>
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246 i am on
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247 flagy -odem
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248 sorry cant
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249 le`ve messg
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250 only read.
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251 will fix
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252 asap
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253 GAPS COMMINF THRU MUCH
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254 CLE@RER HAN L-CASE
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255 WILL RETURN TO
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256 DIQCUSSIO^ ASAP
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257 AARON
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258 |><><><>
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259
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260 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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261
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262 ANON, PLEASE DON'T GIVE US YOUR OPINIONS ABOUT TAXES AGAIN!! YOU'RE
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263 BEGINNING TO SOUND LIKE JOHNNY-ONE-NOTE ON HIS TRUMPET, ALWAYS TOOTING
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264 THE SAME THING. IT SEEMS THAT, NO MATTER THE SUBJECT UNDER DISCUSSION,
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265 YOU TRY TO DIRECT IT TOWARD TAXES, AND WE'VE HEARD YOUR SELFISH OPINIONS
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266 ON THAT BEFORE (NOTE: YOUR OPINIONS ARE SELFISH, NOT YOU.). AS FAR AS
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267 THE QUESTION OF "CONSTITUTIONALITY", THIS IS ALWAYS DECIDED BY THE COURTS.
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268 THEIR DECISION MAY BE TOTALLY WRONG, WE MAY DISAGREE AS TO THEIR FINAL
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269 INTERPRETATION, AND IT MAY BE CHANGED BY A LATER COURT, BUT AT THE TIME
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270 OF THE DECISION, THEIR DEFINITION IS THE LEGAL ONE. YOU MENTIONED THE
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271 DRED SCOTT CASE AS A SAMPLE OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY, BUT IF YOU WILL NOTE,
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272 THE DECISION HANDED DOWN BY THE SUPREME COURT WAS TO THE EFFECT THAT
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273 "THERE IS NO POWER IN THE EXISTING FORM OF GOVERNMENT TO MAKE CITIZENS
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274 OF NEGROES, SLAVE OR FREE, AND THAT AT THE TIME FOR THE FORMATION OF THE
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275 CONSTITUTION THEY WERE NOT, AND COULD NOT BE, CITIZENS IN ANY OF THE
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276 STATES." I DON'T AGREE WITH THE MORAL STANCE OF THIS DECISION, BUT FROM
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277 A STRICTLY LEGAL STANDPOINT, IT WAS CORRECT. AT THAT TIME, THERE WAS
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278 NO LEGAL STANDPOINT TO SAY THAT BLACKS HAD RIGHTS, AND THAT IS WHAT MADE
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279 THE 13th, 14th, & 15th AMENDMENTS NECESSARY. OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT
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280 GIVES THE POWER OF INTERPRETATION OF THE LAW AND CONSTITUTION TO THE
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281 COURTS, AND DESPITE ETHICS OR MORALITY, IT IS THEIR DECISIONS THAT STAND.
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282
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283 d, I FIND THAT THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION IS A MATTER OF FAITH AS MUCH
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284 AS MANY OTHER THINGS. YOU SEEM TO ACCEPT THE CONCEPTS OF NATURAL SELEC-
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285 TION AND ADAPTATION, BUT REJECT MUTATION AS A FORCE. IT IS CORRECT TO
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286 SAY THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUTATIONS ARE HARMFUL (EVEN DEADLY), BUT
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287 THERE STILL ARE OCCASIONAL MUTATIONS THAT AREN'T. OF THESE, MOST
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288 AREN'T HELPFUL IN ANY WAY, AND SO DO NOT DOMINATE. BUT, ONCE IN A GREAT
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289 WHILE, A MUTATION WILL HAPPEN THAT IS BOTH HARMLESS (NOT FATAL) AND USE-
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290 FUL. AS AN EXAMPLE, THERE WERE MANY SPECIES OF MOTH IN PRE-INDUSTRIAL
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291 ENGLAND, AND THEY ALL HAVE METHODS OF PROTECTING THEMSELVES FROM
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292 PREDATION. EITHER BY BEING POISONOUS, CAMOUFLAGE, ETC., THEY PROTECT-
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293 ED THEMSELVES SUCCESSFULLY. BUT WHEN THE INDUSTRIAL AGE OVERTOOK ENGLAND
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294 THOSE THAT USED CAMOFLAUGE TO HIDE WERE SUDDENLY OBVIOUS AGAINST THE
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295 SOOT-COVERED BACKGROUND OF THE TREES AND WALLS OF THE CITY. THEY QUICKLY
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296 FELL VICTIM TO THE BIRDS THAT USED THEM FOR AFTERNOON SNACKS, AND
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297 DISSAPEARED FROM THE SCENE. BUT FROM ONE OF THESE SPECIES, A NEW SPECIES
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298 APPEARED THAT HAD A BROWN & BLACK MOTTLING THAT EXACTLY MATCHED THE SOOT
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299 COVERED BACKGROUND. IT DEFINITELY WAS A NEW SPECIES, AS IT COULDN'T
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300 MATE WITH OTHER KNOWN SPECIES (NATURALISTS TRIED). EITHER MUTATION
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301 CREATED THIS NEW SPECIES, OR GOD DID. PERHAPS GOD USED EVOLUTION FOR
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302 THE PURPOSES OF CREATION? OH WELL, IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER, DOES IT?
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303 WE CAN'T CHANGE THE UNIVERSE, OR REALLY UNDERSTAND IT FULLY, BUT IT'S
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304 FUN TO TALK ABOUT. BY THE WAY, I DON'T "SUPPORT" EVOLUTION, BUT NOBODY
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305 WAS STEPPING FORWARD TO YOUR CHALLENGE, SO I FELT I HAD TO. I'LL NOW
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306 GO BACK TO THE AUDIENCE.......
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307
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308 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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309
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310 Query: Is there a difference of mood in "PAM." vs. "PAM!" ?
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311
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312 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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313 As an aside to your question of comfortable explanations and truth, d, I
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315 find it interesting to note that some scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit as
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316 "Comforter" and that Christian Science writings often refer to God as "Truth
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317 Trying to avoid semantic debate: may we stipulate that "comfortable"
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318 hints at soothed, relieved of distress, at ease; and that "truth" (without
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319 any limiting adjectives) involves verifiable actuality, conformity to
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320 knowledge or fact.
|
||
321 No, I don't reason that an explanation based solely upon the comfort
|
||
323 perceived by either the source or a recipient must generate truth. The
|
||
324 content must be the key -- I would prefer to test an explanation against
|
||
325 observations made objectively or, at least, widely, repeatedly, and
|
||
326 with consistency. Truth stands by itself, not begging acceptance for
|
||
327 having been espoused by an "authority", nor demanding that voices be
|
||
328 raised in emotional praise of it, nor expecting to be replaced by
|
||
329 tomorrow's re-interpretations.
|
||
330 Truth can be DIScomforting -- illustrative scenarios abound.
|
||
331 Your phrase "comfortable with an explanation" further suggests to me
|
||
332 that the source has placed a value upon it from his [neut.] personal
|
||
333 outlook; that it may well be an interpretation of fact, knowledge, logic,
|
||
334 or observation made to perform a soothing role in his thinking; and that
|
||
335 it may be offered as an absolute because of the personal satisfaction it
|
||
336 may have brought him.
|
||
337 Truth, to me, demands both objectivity and broad knowledge -- two
|
||
338 possessions not often exhibited by modern humans. I suppose that a
|
||
340 discussion of point-of-view may be appropriate, but that may lead to
|
||
341 muddying truth with certain other abstractions. And not now. Dave
|
||
342 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
||
343 WELL NOW!
|
||
344 D: I DON'T HAVE MUCH TIME TODAY BUT I MUST ADDRESS YOUR REQUEST FOR RESEARCH
|
||
345 INFORMATION. FIRST OF ALL I MUST SAY THAT IF I COMPLY WITH YOUR REQUEST
|
||
346 I'M LIABLE TO BE DOING A LOT OF WORK. THIS IS SOMEWHAT LESS THAN IT MIGHT
|
||
347 BE WERE IT NOT FOR THE RECENT PUBLICATION BY A NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF
|
||
348 SCIENTISTS ATTEMPTING TO BATTLE THE INROADS MADE BY CREATIONISTS, OF A
|
||
349 LARGE BOOK OF EXAMPLES OF EVOLUTIONARY EXPERIMENTS, COMPLETE WITH DATES,
|
||
350 PEOPLE, NATURE OF THE RESEARCH, ETC. I ASSUME I CAN GET AHOLD OF THIS
|
||
351 BOOK BY CALLING A COLLEGE BIOLOGY DEPARTMENT AND SPEAKING TO THE RIGHT
|
||
352 PERSON.
|
||
353 HOWEVER, I HATE TO SEE THIS DEBATE SHIFT TO ONE WHERE I AM ON THE
|
||
354 DEFENSIVE AND YOU TAKE UP THE EASY ARGUMENTATIVE POSITION OF CRITIC.
|
||
355 IN ORDER TO MAKE THIS DEBATE MORE EVENHANDED, I REQUEST AGAIN THAT
|
||
356 YOU COMPLY WITH MY REQUEST FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND
|
||
357 DATA AND VEIWS. (I ASKED FIRST). TO WHAT EXACT RELIGION AND EXACT CULT
|
||
358 OR CHURCH WITHIN IT DO YOU BELONG. AND EXACTLY WHAT VERSION OF THE BIBLE
|
||
359 WILL WE BE USING FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS DEBATE?
|
||
360 I WILL BE WILLING TO DO THE NECESSARY FOOTWORK FOR MY SIDE IF PRACTICAL
|
||
361 AS LONG AS YOU PRESENT YOUR ARGUMENT IN A SIMILAR MANNER.
|
||
362 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR, THE PRIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
||
363 P.S. ANON IS ACTUALLY THE RESULT OF AN EXPERIMENT ON THE COMPUTER AT THE
|
||
364 HEART OF BWMS THAT WENT AWRY. IN THE DARK OF MIDNIGHT, MIKEY TOUCHED THE
|
||
365 WRONG CHIP ON THE MAIN BOARD WHILE IT WAS UPLOADING SOME DRIVEL FROM A
|
||
366 GUY IN PALO ALTO A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO. THIS RELEASED THE SINISTER SIDE
|
||
367 OF HIS LIFE FORCE TO PROWL THE NETWORKS FOREVER. CAN THIS MONSTER BE
|
||
368 LEASHED ONCE MORE? WILL WE ALL LIVE TO SEE IT? MORE LATER.
|
||
369 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
||
370 1
|
||
371
|
||
372
|
||
373
|
||
374 help
|
||
375 stop
|
||
376
|
||
377 exit
|
||
378
|
||
379
|
||
380
|
||
381
|
||
382
|
||
383
|
||
384 AS I SIT HERE AT THE END OF A LONG DAY, WAITING FOR MY WIFE TO BE DONE WITH
|
||
385 THE ETERNAL DEBUGGING, TESTING, AND GNAWING OF FINGERNAILS, I THOUGHT
|
||
386 MIGHT GET SOME PLEASANT ENTERTAINMENT ON OLD BWMS. I CAN'T IMAGINE JUST
|
||
387 HOW WRONG I REALLY WAS. I HEAR PETTY BICKERING ALL OF THE DAY AMONG ALL
|
||
388 OF THE STUPID CORPORATE CLIMBERS AT MY PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT. WHY WOULD
|
||
389 ANYONE WANT TO HEAR EVEN MORE OF IT HERE?
|
||
390 I HAD A ROOMATE IN COLLEGE WHO ENJOYED A "DEBATE". HE WOULD SPEND
|
||
391 HOURS ARGUING THE SMALLEST POINT WITH ANYONE THAT WOULD RETURN THE
|
||
392 CHALLENGE. HE WAS PROBABLY ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE I NEVER REALLY LIKED.
|
||
393 LET'S FACE IT, THIS IS ALL IDIOTIC SELF-AGGRANDIZEMENT! (JUST LIKE
|
||
394 THIS MESSAGE). WHO NEEDS IT? HOW ABOUT SOMETHING POSITIVE FOR A
|
||
395 CHANGE OF PACE? I CAN GET DEPRESSED ENOUGH BY WATCHING THE EVENING
|
||
396 NEWS...
|
||
397 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ANALOG ALAN @@@ 1802 PST NOV 3, 1983 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
|
||
398 PAM:
|
||
399 You can be forgiven for believing that 'Our system of government gives th
|
||
400 e power of interpretation of the law and constitution to the courts, and despite ethics and morality, it is their decisions
|
||
401 that stand.' Your statement is almost correct. Let me read from an article in the October 10 issue of the Oregon Libertarian
|
||
402 where this same subject is addressed:
|
||
403
|
||
404 "Since the English Magna Carta in 1215, one of the major purposes of a citizen jury is to NOT CONVICT under laws they feel
|
||
405 are unfair. Before the Civil War, there was a famous court case, the Dred Scott decision. The U.S. Supreme court said the
|
||
406 fugitive slave had to be returned to his owner like any other property. This judgment was unpopular with northern juries and
|
||
407 they wouldn't convict others being prosecuted under similar laws."
|
||
408 "The government saw this could get out of hand, if citizens wouldn't convict under the ever-increasing laws. The juries
|
||
409 could veto political schemes. The authorities wanted control and only wanted juries to decide the breaking of the law, not
|
||
410 the law itself."
|
||
411 "This question was debated back and forth. Then in 1895 (Sparf vs. US 156 U.S. 51, 1895), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled
|
||
412 that although juries have the right to ignore a judges instructions on the law, the jury shouldn't be aware of it."
|
||
413 "Jury nullification isn't taught in compulsory government schools. The term isn'T in your encyclopedia or dictionary
|
||
414 and it's dropped from law schools and references. This is right out of Orwell's '1984', the concept doesn't exist if the
|
||
415 phrase is banned."
|
||
416 "All judicial mention since the 1895 Supreme Court ruling acknowledges its existance only grudgingly, and judges refuse to
|
||
417 tell juries about the power to allow defense attorneys to refer to it. This conspiracy of jury ignorance on the part of the
|
||
418 judiciary is one of the strenghts of government - IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
|
||
419 Many of the current powers of government could be abolished if juries knew their rights and responsibilities. We see the
|
||
420 jury veto in modern times, naturally without being taught. In many areas juries won't convict for marijuana and other
|
||
421 'morals' laws (as well as some income tax cases and drunk driving cases. Ed. ), so they aren't enforced."
|
||
422 "Critics fear this will lead to anarchy and chaos. Yet in Georgia, Indiana, and Maryland, the right to tell juries about
|
||
423 nullification is a constitutional part of the state judicial process. These states haven't suffered and can be leaders in
|
||
424 a citizen reawakening."
|
||
425
|
||
426 END QUOTE.
|
||
427
|
||
428 Now, PAM, can you honestly tell me you already knew about JURY NULLIFICATION? And now that you DO know about it, do you
|
||
429 persist in the belief (albeit commonly held, as explained above.) that the courts have the final right of interpretation of
|
||
430 laws? Any jury member can, with total impunity, ignore ANY law or judges instruction in reaching his verdict.
|
||
431 Further, what is your opinion of a government that actually prevents its citizens (or most of them anyway) from learning
|
||
432 such a fundamental right?
|
||
433 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ANON :::::::::
|
||
434 p.s. The last time, I did not bring up the subject of the legality of taxes. BAD did. If you wish, blame him.
|
||
435
|
||
436 p.p.s to BAD: My essay on the constitutionality of taxes will have to wait until tomorrow. I hope you have been entertained,
|
||
437 in the mean time, by the article on Jury Nullification. By the way, did YOU know about jury nullification????
|
||
438 ****************************************
|
||
439
|
||
440 It's been a long time since I have commented, but that last bit
|
||
441 needs some remarks. Anon, you appear to be the Anonymous of old from
|
||
442 your friendly tones. An interesting comment about jury nullification.
|
||
443 All for the "people" as long as they don't ask for any of your money as
|
||
444 usual, too. Seems that Pam said that the power of interpretation of the
|
||
445 law is in the hands of the courts, and that INCLUDES the juries. Juries
|
||
446 are part of the courts too, and if they refuse to convict, then that is
|
||
447 an interpretation. And in the case of Dred Scott, no matter how many
|
||
448 juries refused, it still took a war and 3 ammendments before the *LEGAL*
|
||
449 power existed to grants rights to slaves. The referal to jury nullification
|
||
450 was interesting, but off the point. Since juries are part of the courts,
|
||
451 it is still a court decision. To quote you, "almost right" Anon (alias
|
||
452 unsigned).
|
||
453
|
||
454 *************Captain America************
|
||
455 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
|
||
456 yes, all, that was me up there. just moved, and couldn't find the
|
||
457 good modem. for some unknown reason, the system loved to drop me
|
||
458 out of enter mode after about 10 <>..no touch-tone here either, have
|
||
459 to dial on a Bell circa 1960. back to normal, now (relative)...
|
||
460
|
||
461 as pam (?) said, what would prevent a "GOD" from creating a
|
||
462 planet with an intact fossil record?
|
||
463
|
||
464 Anon, you havn't replied to me regarding my request on your
|
||
465 background pertaining to FFT et al...
|
||
466
|
||
467 who's going to ORYCON?
|
||
468 aaron
|
||
469 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
|
||
470 Has anyone ever considered that the "Infernal Revenue Service" might be
|
||
471 staffed with MUTANT ATHEISTS? That would explain a lot, wouldn't it?
|
||
472 **********************************BSR the huge***************************
|
||
473 Arron,
|
||
474 whats ORYCON and where will it be held ???
|
||
475 ----and why should anyone care???
|
||
476 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
||
477 WELL NOW!
|
||
478 DEAR d :
|
||
479 BACK AGAIN WITH MORE TIME.
|
||
480
|
||
481 TO TAKE YOUR POINTS SINGLY:
|
||
482 A. SORRY, NEVER HEARD OF THEODOSIUS. WHERE DID YOU GET THAT QUOTE, OUT
|
||
483 OF THE WATCHTOWER MAGAZINE? TYPICAL CREATIONIST DISTORTION. WHOEVER HE IS,
|
||
484 THE STATEMENT THAT "MUTANTS" (A WORD NOT TYPICALLY USED IN BIOLOGICAL RE-
|
||
485 SEARCH) THAT ARE POSITIVE ARE UNKNOWN IS NOT PART OF EVOLUTIONARY THEORY,
|
||
486 BUT IS PART OF CREATIONIST DOGMA. IF BY 'MAJOR IMPROVEMENT' IS MEANT THAT
|
||
487 ANIMALS, FOR INSTANCE, DO NOT SUDDENLY GO FROM FOUR LEGS TO TWO, THAT MAY
|
||
488 BE QUITE RIGHT.
|
||
489 B. YOU ASK FOR A BELIEVERS DEFINITION OF EVOLUTION. ALL I COULD DO
|
||
490 IS GIVE YOU A BELIEVERS DEFINITION OF CREATIONISM OR RELIGION. THESE ARE
|
||
491 NOT THEORIES, IN THE SCIENTIFIC SENSE. EVOLUTION IS A THEORY, HOWEVER, AND
|
||
492 NO-ONE WITH ANY KIND OF SCIENTIFIC OUTLOOK SHOULD 'BELIEVE' IN A SCIENTIFIC
|
||
493 THEORY. THEORIES IN SCIENCE ARE WORKING MODELS, WHICH MAY BE IMPROVED OR
|
||
494 CAST OUT. THEORIES ARE JUST THE BEST ONE CAN DO WITH THE AVAILABLE EVIDENCE.
|
||
495 THIS IS IN CONTRAST TO CREATIONISM AND OTHER TYPES OF RELIGIOUS DOGMA, WHICH
|
||
496 DO NOT RELY AT ALL ON EVIDENCE FOR THEIR FOUNDATION, AND THUS ARE SUPPORTED
|
||
497 BY FAITH ALONE.
|
||
498 C. YOU APPEAR NEVER TO HAVE CRACKED THE PAGES OF A POPULAR SCIENCE
|
||
499 MAGAZINE OR TO HAVE TAKEN A BIOLOGY COURSE. THIS IS NOT UNUSUAL, OF COURSE.
|
||
500 EVEN MOST PEOPLE WITH TECHNICAL BACKGROUNDS HAVE NEVER TAKEN ANY KIND OF
|
||
501 REAL STUDY IN EVOLUTIONARY THEORY, EVEN IF THEY DID TAKE A BIOLOGY COURSE
|
||
502 AT ONE TIME. THE REASON FOR THIS IS QUITE OBVIOUS - RELIGIOUS PEOPLE
|
||
503 SITTING ON SCHOOL BOARDS AND TEXTBOOK REVEIW COMMITTEES HAVE REFUSED FOR
|
||
504 DECADES TO ALLOW PROPER PRESENTATION OF EVOLUTION IN REGULAR COURSE MATER-
|
||
505 IAL. THIS IS WHY EVEN SCEPTICS OF THE RELIGIOUS VEIW HAVE SUCH A HARD TIME
|
||
506 DEFENDING SCIENTIFIC EVOLUTIONARY THEORY - THEY SIMPLY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT
|
||
507 THEMSELVES, HAVING HAD NO CLASSES OR SELF-STUDY IN THE SUBJECT OF ANY
|
||
508 SIGNIFICANT EXTENT. THERE IS NOW A NATIONAL MOVEMENT AMONG UNIVERSITY
|
||
509 TEACHERS (AT LAST) IN RESPONSE TO CREATIONISM, TO CORRECT THIS DEFICIENCY
|
||
510 IN EDUCATION OF FUTURE GENERATIONS.
|
||
511 WITH YOU, THIS LACK OF BACKGROUND SHOWS UP IN YOUR REPEATED REFERENCES
|
||
512 TO MUTANTS. MUTATION IS NOT THE ONLY, NOR PROBABLY EVEN THE MAJOR CAUSE
|
||
513 OF EVOLUTION. GENES AND DNA ARE NOT FIXED IN THEIR CHROMOSOMES. THEY ARE
|
||
514 ALWAYS INVOLVED IN A PROCESS OF DYNAMIC RE-COMBINATION, THAT *AT THIS
|
||
515 POINT* IN HISTORY IS ABLE TO GENERATE GENETIC CHANGES INTERNALLY. THIS
|
||
516 IS BEHIND THE PROCESS OF IMMUNITY TO VIRUS PARTICLES. WE CANNOT CARRY
|
||
517 GENES FOR IMMUNITY TO EVERYTHING. THE GENES RECOMBINE THEMSELVES TO
|
||
518 FIND THE PROPER COMBINATIONS TO PRODUCE AN ANTIBODY THAT IS JUST RIGHT
|
||
519 TO FIGHT OFF AN INFECTION. EVERY TIME A VIRUS PARTICLE INVADES ONE OF
|
||
520 YOUR CELLS, IT MAKES IT'S GENES PART OF THAT CELL. AND THE VIRUS CAN
|
||
521 BRING PIECES OF DNA WITH IT THAT WERE AQUIRED ELSEWHERE, EVEN PERHAPS FROM
|
||
522 OTHER ANIMALS. WHEN A NEW VIRUS PARTICLE LATER LEAVES YOUR BODY (E.G. IN
|
||
523 A SNEEZE) IT MAY TAKE SOME OF YOUR GENES WITH IT, PERHAPS TO BE DEPOSITED
|
||
524 SOMEWHERE (OR SOMEWHO) ELSE AGAIN.
|
||
525 EVERY TIME YOU HAVE A COLD, YOU 'MUTATE' IN A USEFUL WAY!
|
||
526 C. WE HAVE TEN BILLION BRAIN CELLS OR THEREABOUTS. IF WE HAVE BEEN USING
|
||
527 ONLY 1-BILLIONTH OF THESE WE HAVE BEEN USING 10 CELLS. I THEREFORE DISPUTE
|
||
528 THE ESTIMATE YOU MADE. REDUCTIO AD ADSURBAM.
|
||
529 ON A MORE SEROIUS NOTE THOUGH, IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT THIS BIT
|
||
530 OF APOCRYPHIA (I THINK) ABOUT OUR ALLEGED UNUSED CAPACITY HAS BEEN FLOATING
|
||
531 AROUND IN THE POPULAR PRESS FOR GENERATIONS NOW WITHOUT THE SLIGHTEST
|
||
532 BACKUP FROM RESEARCH. VARIOUS ESTIMATES OF IT ARE GIVEN, ALTHOUGH YOURS
|
||
533 MUST SET A RECORD. HAS ANYONE ON THIS BBS AN IDEA OF THE ORIGIN OF THIS
|
||
534 RIDICULOUS NOTION?
|
||
535 MY OWN VEIW IS THAT WE COULD USE ANOTHER TEN BILLION CELLS OR SO. AT
|
||
536 LEAST.
|
||
537 D. ON YOUR REQUEST FOR DOCUMENTATION, I WILL RESTRICT MYSELF TO SUCH
|
||
538 STATEMENTS ABOUT CURRENT THEORY AS CAN BE CONFIRMED IN THE PAGES OF
|
||
539 SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN AND SCIENCE83 (-84,ETC). SCIENCE83 IS PUBLISHED BY
|
||
540 THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF SCIENCE, AND IS GENERALLY
|
||
541 ACCURATE, AS IS SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN. THE SAME CANNOT BE SAID FOR POPULAR
|
||
542 SCIENCE, OMNI, DISCOVER, ETC, WHICH SEEM TO BE WRITTEN AND PUBLISHED BY
|
||
543 REAL ESTATE SALESMEN. (ACTUALLY, OMNI IS PUBLISHED BY PENTHOUSE, WHICH I
|
||
544 GUESS ACCOUNTS SOMEWHAT FOR THE LURID APPROACH THEY HAVE)
|
||
545 ANY OTHER STATEMENTS I MAKE THAT COULD NOT BE EXPECTED TO BE CONFIRMED
|
||
546 BY REFERRING TO THESE MAGAZINES I WILL GIVE SOURCE FOR, WHEN APPROPRIATE.
|
||
547 IF, THAT IS TO SAY, YOU WILL DOCUMENT YOUR OWN POSITION VIS-A-VIS THE
|
||
548 CHURCH YOU BELONG TO, IF ANY, AND WHAT VERSION OF THE BIBLE YOU WILL USE.
|
||
549 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR, THE TERRIBLY INSIGHTFUL!!!!!
|
||
550 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||
551 An open letter to the visitors of the Inn...
|
||
552 While reading through these messages, and lengthy messages they are,
|
||
553 one thing came to mind. How is it that you have the time to leave such
|
||
554 lengthy unimportant reports on your ego for the general public? Do you
|
||
555 work? And if you do, do you work hard? Do you have any social life? How
|
||
556 is it that you find time to leave such, shall we say, pieces, on the
|
||
557 public BBS's for all to read and disagree with. Doesn't the Inn ever
|
||
558 close? Doesn't the Inn keeper ever get tired of the same old
|
||
559 customers who talk alot but don't say much? Don't the well intentioned
|
||
560 customers who stop by for a simple rest mind all the bickering in the
|
||
561 background? Now that the Inn has become somewhat popular do to the
|
||
562 increased traffic on the nearby road, are any of you worried that you
|
||
563 will be forcibly ejected from the warm surroundings due to your
|
||
564 over-verbifications and inane debates? I ask you, how much longer do you
|
||
565 think you will be allowed free reign of the Inn? Bw wary
|
||
566
|
||
567
|
||
568 =========================================================================
|
||
569 HERE HERE HERE. FINALLY A MESSAGE THAT DID NOT CONTAIN THE WORD 'GOD',
|
||
570 'CREATIONISM', 'MUTANT', 'EVOLUTUON', 'DEBATE', OR 'I DISAGREE'
|
||
571 IF I WANT TO FIND OUT ABOUT THE STATE OF THE UNION, AND OUR SOCIETY,
|
||
572 I'LL TUNE IN 'THE A-TEAM' RATA TATA TAT!
|
||
573 =========================================================================
|
||
574
|
||
575 We need useful subjects to talk about to expand our outlooks. So far
|
||
576 the subjects discussed on BACKWATER are of very little interest and
|
||
577 even less importance. Get off the theology. BORING!
|
||
578 ****************************BSR the bored***************************
|
||
600 I VERY MUCH AGREE!!!!!!!!!THIS PLACE IS REALLY GETTING DEPRESSING!!!!!!!!!!!
|
||
601
|
||
602 ****************************************************************************
|
||
603 Aaron:
|
||
604 Sorry about that. Didn't know/forgot that you asked me about FFT. Honestly, I only know enough about that to get
|
||
605 my face slapped. As I said before, however, I admire your ambition. I'd love to hear of your efforts.
|
||
606
|
||
607 Captain:
|
||
608 Interesting point, though I still believe that even if a jury could be considered a subset of a court, it is slightly
|
||
609 deceptive (though unintentional) to say that 'courts make the decisions.' This is somewhat like saying, 'Congress must approve
|
||
610 US treaties' (In fact, the Senate is charged with treaty ratification.) To be sure, this is minor, but it is important that
|
||
611 people be aware of their rights, no matter how much the government wants them to be ignorant.
|
||
612
|
||
613 All:
|
||
614 Pardon my comment on Biology, but a Biologist I know once quoted a professor on the question of why most of the mutations
|
||
615 that occur are defective/bad (called LETHAL by bio's). He said that the likelihood of a mutation being good is somewhat akin
|
||
616 to the probability of driving a nail through a pocketwatch and thereby actually IMPROVE IT'S TIMEKEEPING ABILITY. Genes are
|
||
617 exceedingly complex, and nearly any accidental modification is not beneficial. But since 'good' modifications result in
|
||
618 better life forms, and since 'better life forms' succeed (i.e. live, breed, etc) then even if only one billionth of the
|
||
619 mutations were 'good,' then eventually life would improve. My guess is that the proportion of 'good' mutations may be far
|
||
620 smaller than this, even. But over thousands of generations, such mutations can have a visible effect.
|
||
621 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon :::::::::
|
||
622 You are all in luck, there is not enough space here for me to comment on
|
||
623 all that has been said. I can, however speak of evolution, having personally
|
||
624 seen it. In high school biology I demonstrated it. Using some E. coli, I
|
||
625 tested it with antibiiotics, and killed the test colony. applying small dos-
|
||
626 ages did not kill the next one, but caused it to evolve toward resistance.
|
||
627 It soon came to be able to survive much larger doses than killed its
|
||
628 ancestors. It evolved. It didn't become a bee, it just became able to live
|
||
629 better in a particular environment. Evolution invloves many small steps/BAD\
|
||
|