634 lines
35 KiB
Plaintext
634 lines
35 KiB
Plaintext
LIST
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FILE ON
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MARGIN IS 80
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STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
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NUMBER OF LINES: 629
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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
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2 ************************** REMOVED: 2 OCT 83 ***********************
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3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
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4 ************************************************************
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5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
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6 THIS SYSTEM.
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7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
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8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
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9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
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10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
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11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
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12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
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13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
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14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
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15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
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16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
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17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
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18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
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19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
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20 use the replace command to replace the line.
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21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
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22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
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23 ========================================
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24
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25 HI SUE IN PORTLAND IM HAVING A GRAT DEAL OF FUN PLAYING WITH THE COMPUTER
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26 PLEASE CALL ME AS SOON AS YOU READ THIS MESSAGE.
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27
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28
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29 TERRY IN SALEM
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30 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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31 THIS IS V-E-R-Y INTERESTING. WE START
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32 WITH RELIGION IS A ROOT OF ALL WARS
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33 (BLAMING RELIGION) THEN GRADUATE TO HOW
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34 POWER-MONGERS USE RELIGION TO RALLY THEIR PEOPLE.
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35 NOW SPEAKING OF LOGIC--HOW CAN YOU BLAME
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36 RELIGION FOR THE WAY SOME CHOOSE TO USE
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37 IT. NOW YOU ARE BLAMING THE POWER-MONGERS
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38 AND THEN SHIFTING BLAME TO RELIGION.
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39 AS TO GOD'S CAPABILITY IN RUNNING THE
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40 WORLD (SUPPOSING GOD EXISTS), IF GOD
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41 WIPED OUT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO MADE A-BOMBS
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42 AND GERM WARFARE AND TERRORISM, ETC.,
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43 WHAT KIND OF OUTCRY WOULD BE RAISED THEN?
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44 IE HOW CAN ANYONE CHOOSE THEIR OWN WAY
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45 WITH THE THREAT OF IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION
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46 HANGING OVER THEIR HEADS IF THEY BLOOK
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47 CROSS-EYED AT SOMEONE THEY'RE NOT MARRIED
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48 TO. "WE'RE ROBOTS...CAN'T MAKE OUR OWN
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49 CHOICES--OUR OWN MISTAKES!!" WE HEAR THAT
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50 FROM TEEN-AGERS ABOUT THEIR PARENTS
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51 ALREADY--SO WE KNOW IT WOULD HAPPEN. NOW
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52 THAT WE MAKE OUR OWN MISTAKES WE BLAME
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53 (WHATEVER GOD THERE IS) FOR ALL OUR "HIS" PROBLEMS. WHEW!!!! TALK ABOUT LOGIC!
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54 ((((((((((((((((WAYNE)))))))))))))))))))
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55
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56
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57
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58
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59
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60
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61
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62
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63
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64
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65 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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66 WELL NOW!
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67 WAYNE JUST ABOVE ME HERE HAS MANAGED TO WRITE OVER THE TOP OF MY MESSAGE,
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68 ERASING EVERYTHING EXCEPT MY !!!!! LINE, SO HERE GOES AGAIN. HOPEFULLY THE
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69 ABOVE WAS ACCIDENTAL RATHER THAN JUDGEMENTAL, AND THIS COPY WILL STAY.
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70
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71 PAM : THERE IS A GREAT BODY OF WORK THAT HAS BEEN DONE BY RATHER FAMOUS
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72 FIGURES IN THE FIELD OF LOGIC AND PHILOSOPHY THAT TENDS TO SHOW THAT
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73 LOGIC IS INDEED A RATHER LIMITED TOOL FOR THE SOLUTION OF ANY HUMAN PROBLEM
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74 OR FOR THE CONDUCT OF HUMAN REASONING. IT HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED BY EVRYONE
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75 FROM ST. THOMAS AQUINAS TO EMMANUAL KANT TO WHITEHEAD THAT THERE IS NO
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76 WAY TO PROVE THAT LOGIC BEARS ANY RELATIONSHIP TO REALITY. THAT WE BELIEVE
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77 IT DOES IS ONLY A BELIEF, AS IS TRUE OF THE USE AND MISUSE OF STATISTICS
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78 AS WELL. THERE IS ALSO A GREAT DEAL OF EMPIRICAL BACKGROUND TO SHOW
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79 THAT FORMAL LOGIC HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH THE PROGRESS OF HUMAN KNOWLEDGE
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80 OR REASON.
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81 I BELIEVE THAT YOU MAY BE CONFUSING REASON WITH LOGIC. REASON IS
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82 A MUCH LESS RIGOROUS PROCESS. ALL OF THE OBJECTIONS TO THE ARGUMENTATIVE
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83 TECHNIQUES USED HERE ON BMS ARE JUST THAT - NOT OBJECTIONS TO INCORRECT
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84 LOGICAL CONSTRUCTS,E.G. POINTING OUT THE INCORRECT CONSTRUCTION OF
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85 SYLLOGISMS. IT IS WORTH NOTING HERE THAT IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CONSTRUCT
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86 MEANINGFUL SYLLOGISMS IN ORDINARY ENGLISH, AND THAT VERY FEW PEOPLE
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87 USING THIS BOARD CAN BE EXPECTED TO BE FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE OF
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88 FORMAL PHILOSOPHY, INCLUDING MYSELF.
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89 THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT OBJECTING TO A ARGUMENTATIVE TECHNIQUE
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90 CAN'T BE A VALUABLE OBJECTION. YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIVE VERY LONG TO
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91 REALIZE THAT MANY COMMON ARGUMENTATIVE TECHNIQUES ARE UNFAIR AND COUNTER
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92 PRODUCTIVE. ESPECIALLY WHEN DIRECTED AT ONESELF. THIS HAS NOTHING TO
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93 DO WITH FORMAL LOGIC THOUGH.
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94
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95 " AM I NOT GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO SAYING THAT IN THE END LOGIC
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96 CANNOT BE DESCRIBED? YOU MUST LOOK AT THE PRACTICE OF LANGUAGE...."
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97 "....IT WOULD ALSO STRIKE ME AS NONSENSE TO SAY 'I KNOW THAT THE THEORY
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98 OF INDUCTION IS TRUE'........"
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99 (LUDWIG WITTGENSTEIN, "ON CERTAINTY")
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100
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101 WHAT I THINK IS THAT LOGIC PROBABLY LESS IMPORTANT THAN INTUITION,
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102 RESTLESNESS, ARGUMENTATIVE ATTACK, THE DESIRE TO WIN OUT OVER OTHERS,
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103 CREATIVE DESIRE, EMPIRICAL REASONING, LIFE EXPERIENCE,ETC. IN THE
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104 PROGRESS OF HUMANITY AND HUMAN REASON.
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105
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106 HOWEVER, I AGREE WITH ALL OF YOUR OBJECTIONS TO ARGUMENTATIVE TECHNIQUE,
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107 EXCEPT ONE, ARE VALID AS LONG AS WE AGREE THAT WE ARE NOT TALKING
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108 ABOUT FORMAL LOGIC. THAT ONE IS THE USE OF ANECDOTAL MATERIAL, WHICH
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109 IS CRITICAL FOR THE PROCESSES OF LEARNING AND ANALOGY. THIS
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110 ANECDOTAL TECHNIQUE ONLY BREAKS DOWN WHEN THE SOURCES OF THE ANECDOTE
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111 OR THE DETAILS OF IT ARE UNCERTAIN. NOTE THAT ANECDOTES DO NOT HAVE EVEN
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112 HAVE TO BE TRUE, JUST ILLUSTRATIVE. ONE COMMUNICATES ONES EXPERIENCE, AND
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113 THIS IS CALLED ANECDOTAL.(OR SOMEONE ELSE'S EXPERIENCE). IT IS TRUE
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114 THAT THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DO ANALOGY AND LEARNING, BUT THIS IS A VERY
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115 IMPORTANT ONE. YOU WILL PROBABLY AGREE THAT IT IS THE WAY ANECDOTAL
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116 MATERIAL IS USED THAT MAKES IT VALID OR INVALID
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117 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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118 I LOVE Markham Middle School
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119
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120 help
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121
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122 lI
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123 list
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124 list
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125 off
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126 list
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127 print
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128 enter
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129 help
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130 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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131 DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THE LINE WAS BUSY FOR THE TWO HOURS SINCE MY LAST
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132 VOLUME OF BUSHWA AND THE ABOVE THRASHING AROUND (FAILURE TO USE CONTROL-C)
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133 IS THE ONLY ADDITION. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RATIO OF CONTRIBUTORS TO
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134 LURKERS ON THIS SYSTEM HAS GOTTEN TO BE?
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135 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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136 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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137
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138 WHERE IS MARKHAM MIDDLE SCHOOL???????????
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139
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140 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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141 /Z?Z/Z/z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z?Z/Z?Z/Z/Z/
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142 TO EVERYONE :
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143 LOOK ON DISK DRIVE B
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144 SUBJECT "HP 3000'CC
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145 /Z/Z?Z/Z/Z/ XENON /Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/
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146 How do you get to drive B? WGH
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147
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148
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149
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150 HROTHGAR: I ASSURE YOU THAT WRITING OVER
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151 YOUR MESSAGE WAS ENTIRELY ACCIDENTAL. I
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152 ENJOY READING MESSAGES ON THIS SYSTEM,
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153 AND I WILL ENDEAVOR TO KEEP MY FOOTPRINTS
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154 OUT OF PLACES THEY DON'T BELONG SO OTHERS
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155 CAN ENJOY IT, TOO.
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156 ((((((((((((((((WAYNE)))))))))))))))))))
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157 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
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158 - Xenon, I think that's a great idea!! There is a teacher in -
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159 - our school who goes to the MCESD EVERY day. He gave me -
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160 - LEGAL access to the CIS system. I mentioned it to him and -
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161 - he said to keep reminding him to talk to the MCESD'ers -
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162 - it. Gimme a call.... let's discuss this! -
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163 - -
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164 - TRON -
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165 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
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166 WGH : TYPE DB AT THE > PROMPT
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167 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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168 XENON: WHO IS MCESD AND HOW COME THEY GOT $100,000 FOR A LEARNING MACHINE?
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169 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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170 RELIGION---BEING BROUGHT UP AS A CATHOLIC DOES
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171 NOT HELP IN THIS DISCUSSION. ALL THROUGH GRADE AND
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172 HIGH SCHOOL THE IDEA OF THE SUPREME BEING IS
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173 FORCE FED TO YOU.
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174
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175 ACTUALLY IN HIGH SCHOOL THE FIRST THING THE PRIEST
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176 TELLS YOU IS THAT EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE BEEN "FED"
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177 THE BIBLE, IT IS NOT REALLY THE FACTS. IT IS WHAT THEY
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178 WOULD LIKE YOU TO BELIEVE.
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179 IT DOESN'T HELP...ONLY LEAVES YOU WITH A FEELING THAT
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180 THERE IS A BIG GUY.......
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182 TYPE AND FORM UNKNOWN..>.
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183 MR BILL
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184 ++++++++++++++;++++++++)+++++++++++++++++
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185 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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186 HROTHGAR, YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT AND WRONG. ANECDOTE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE AS
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187 ARGUMENT. IT CAN BE USED IN SUPPORT OF AN ARGUMENT, BUT NOT AS THE
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188 ARGUMENT. TOO MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE CAN BE
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189 USED TO SUPPORT THE GENERAL SITUATION. YOU MAY HAVE KNOWN A LAZY
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190 BLACK MAN, A DRUNKEN IRISHMAN, ETC., BUT THAT IS NOT AN ARGUMENT THAT
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191 BLACKS ARE LAZY, IRISH ARE DRUNKS, BUT MERELY THAT YOU KNEW MEMBERS
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192 OF THOSE GROUPS THAT FIT THOSE LABELS. AND I RESOLUTELY REJECT
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193 INTUITION AS SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING. THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS THROUGHOUT
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194 HISTORY THAT COULD USE INTUITION TO LEAD THEM ON TO NEW CONCEPTS AND
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195 IDEAS, BUT THEY ARE RARE. THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE (MYSELF INCLUDED)
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196 USUALLY HAVE INTUITIVE SPARKS THAT ARE BASED ON THEIR PERSONAL BIAS
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197 AND ARE MOSTLY WRONG. YOU ARE QUITE CORRECT WHEN YOU SAY THAT
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198 LOGIC BY ITSELF PROVES NOTHING. AND YOU CAN SAY THAT CONSTRUCTION
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199 EQUIPMENT BY ITSELF BUILDS NOTHING. BOTH ARE MERELY TOOLS TO BE USED
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200 TO BUILD WITH, AND ARE POWERLESS ALONE. YOU DON'T VIOLATE THESE
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201 SIMPLE RULES OF ARGUMENT YOURSELF. I'VE NEVER SEEN YOU LOWER YOURSELF
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202 TO AN AD HOMINEM LIKE OUR "UNSIGNED" FRIEND DID A FEW DISKS AGO.
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203 EVEN ARE MOST RECENT DISCUSSION OF GOD EVENTUALLY CAME DOWN TO
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204 WHETHER ONE ACCEPTED THE APPEAL TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE. SO
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205 IF YOU WISH TO ARGUE THAT THIS IS NOT DEFINEABLE AS RULES OF LOGIC,
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206 I WILL ACCEPT YOUR POSITION (WHILE NOT NECESSARILY AGREEING). BUT
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207 IF YOU FEEL THAT THE RULES OF LOGICAL ARGUMENT ARE NOT VALID, THEN
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208 THERE CAN NEVER BE CONCLUSIONS ARRIVED AT THAT MANY CAN AGREE WITH,
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209 SHORT OF THOSE THAT AGREE WITH WHAT THE INDIVIDUAL HAS AN EMOTIONAL
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210 STAKE IN. AND, WHILE I AGREE STATISTICS CAN BE MANIPULATED TO PROVE
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211 WHATEVER POSITION YOU TAKE, ANY PROPER ANALYSIS OF STATISTICS THAT
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212 HAVE BEEN MANIPULATED THUS WILL SHOW THAT THE PROPER PICTURE IS
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213 BEING HIDDEN. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THE EVIDENCE YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS
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214 EVALUATION, BUT IF THE SUBJECT IS OF ANY IMPORTANCE AT ALL, THERE
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215 WILL BE SOMEONE THAT DOESN'T AGREE AND WHO WILL TAKE THE STATISTICS
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216 APART TO SHOW THEY ARE WRONG.
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217 ON A LIGHTER NOTE, HROTHGAR, THANKS FOR RESPONDING TO ME IN A
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218 MANNER NOT INSULTING OR DEROGATORY. I FIND THAT THERE ARE MANY THAT
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219 I AGREE WITH THAT ARE SO INSULTING IN THEIR RHETORIC THAT I EITHER
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220 REMAIN SILENT, OR FIND MYSELF TEMPTED TO ARGUE WITH THEM MERELY TO
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221 SEE THE PROVERBIAL STEAM COME OUT OF THEIR EARS. BUT YOUR
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222 RESPONSE WAS REASONED AND TEMPERED THAT IT WAS HARD FOR ME TO RESPOND
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223 IN SUPPORT OF MY OPINIONS. MY 'ATS OFF TA YA, SPORT!!
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224
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225 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][]
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226
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227 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
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228
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229 Mr. Bill: Are you or have you recently been a Tektronix employee?
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230
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231 Mikey: I think we have all generalized a bit here and there. For
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232 example, I am sure there have been numerous Christians who have con-
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233 tributed considerably to the welfare of mankind. Likewise there have been
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234 scientist who have developed instruments of our destruction. When I
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235 speak of a particular cross-section of society as a whole I attempt to
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236 typify the characteristics of the majority of its members. If I feel
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237 there is no CLEAR majority I tend to avoid such generalization.
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238 I think you will have to agree that without scientific innovation, the
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239 net result would be a far lower standard of living. (We have already
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240 discussed the hazards of living in caves. Who wants to go through life
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241 covered with Chiropteran excrement?)
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242 Although we now face potential extinction, I strongly feel we would
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243 have met this fate millennia ago had it not been for the advent of
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244 Science. I believe a stable society
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245 depends on the balance in technological and socialogical advancements
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246 in that society and our current instability is resultant from our
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247 abandonment of sociological endeavors.
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248 In contrast, although some religious organizations have made contributions
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249 to the well-being of specific persons in specific areas (missionaries,
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250 CCF, etc.) this has most often been
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251 done with the alterior motive of recruiting new followers and, more
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252 importantly the only lasting effects on society as a whole (that I am
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253 aware of) have been pernicious.
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254 I have condemned religion, in general, on this basis; but I feel that
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255 you have based your condemnation of the scientific community on a few
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256 exceptions to the rule. Please see Pam's discussion above.
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257
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258 Pam: many good comments above regarding the use and misuse
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259 of logic (as the construction tools) and statistics. I might suggest
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260 furthering the analogy by relating statistics to the building materials.
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261 Without the proper tools, materials and someone knowlegeable of carpentry,
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262 the building is likely to crumble.
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263
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264 Xenon: Pardon my ignorance (also correct me) if I'm wrong, but isn't
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265 MCESD = Multnomah County Educational Service District?? (or something
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266 like that) Aren't they tax supported? Such an installation would be very
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267 taxing! Also, just to satisfy my curiousity, why did you select an
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268 HP3000? As long as we're spending money, I would prefer a Cray-II.
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269 I too would like to have local access to a mainframe system (besides Tek
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270 & PSU) but I suspect that the reason it has not already been done is that
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271 it is cost prohibitive.
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272
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273 Whomever: I suspect that besides causation there is another significant
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274 reason for the correlation between religion and militarism. It seems
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275 that some models of the Human CPU are supplied with varying amounts of
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276 RAM and EAROM. While some may require some special signals or stimuli
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277 (such as evidence) for reprogramming, others are easily programmed and
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278 reprogrammed by church, state or any other body which, to them, repre-
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279 sents authority.
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280
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281 Dirty Ol' Man
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282
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283 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
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284
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285 Pam, although are correct in requesting logiic, as far as it goes, but we
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286 have more to do here than prove something right or wrong, we attemp to
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287 convey information or convince. ((My, do I have a bad connectio!!!))
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288 It aids in understanding to have anecdotes !n analogies. we humans (am I
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289 including too much) are not very logical, in the traditional silogisn
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290 sense, relying on such as majority logic and gut feeling. Intuition is more
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291 a name for "I don't know why, but"; I suspect if we look deeper we will find
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292 it no different from any other thinking.
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293 The accusations against religion are unfounded, apparently as no reasons
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294 ar1 given. When reasons are given, I am reminded of the claims of semi-
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295 literate neo-freudians who say "all human actions are driven by sex." By
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296 the time theyhave told you how this is so, they have defined sex to mean
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297 'everything that causes human action'. But this isn't what I mean when I
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298 say sex, or when you think sex, so it means nothing.
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299 The Bible doesn'tc claim to be easily understandable, perhaps it is better
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300 vagues, as it can then apply to situations not expect%d by the writers.
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301 ///////////_//////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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302 Pam, what kind of terminal or program do you user that creates that line
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303 down the middle of the screen??
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304 ///////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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305 *********************************************************************
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306 DOM: JUST WANTED TO POINT OUT THAT THE SCIENTISTS HANDS WERE NOT SPIC AND
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307 SPAN CLEAN EITHER...
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308 ****** CISTOP MIKEY ******* 28 SEPT 83 ********* 8:20AM **************
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309 To: DOM (or whoever) I must point out that "appealing to authority"
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310 in an argument is done more often than is realized. I must also
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311 point out that it is sometimes "neccessary". Taken strictly, one
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312 would have to PERSONALLY check EVERYTHING otherwise you are "appealing
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313 to the authority" who told you! This is obviously impossible (well
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314 - impractical anyway!). The main example in recent arguments was
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315 calling d's excerpts from the bible "appealing to authority" (I'm
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316 going to abbreviate that as "a.t.a" for the rest of this msg!)
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317 Since the subject being discussed was the beliefs of Christians
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318 & Christian doctrine etc., calling this "a.t.a" is like calling
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319 a quote from a physics text "a.t.a"! Quoting from the bible
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320 qualifies as "a.t.a" ONLY when you are attempting to prove a
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321 point NOT involving religion!
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322 By the way isn't a phyics experiment "a.t.a", with the
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323 UNIVERSE as the "authority"? Think about it!
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324 Also, I beleive we had a circular argument on the last
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325 disk. To wit: You can't prove the existence of God because there
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326 is no evidence! I mean REALLY now! That has to be the silliest
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327 excuse for an argument that I have heard in at least a MONTH. All
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328 that lack of evidence "proves" is that there isn't any evidence.
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329 I know we aren't trying for "formal" proofs here, but anyone who
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330 can't see that lack of evidence doesn't prove things had better
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331 stay out of our discussions.
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332
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333 And now for something completely different......
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334 I am looking for a "telephone device" (hereinafter referred to as a "box").
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335 This box must have 1 modular jack of the type used for wall-to-phone
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336 connections & 1 jack of the type used for connecting the
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337 handset. It must have a switch of some sort to for on-hook/off-hook.
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338 Ring indication is optional (nice, but I can do without).
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339 Dialing capability is optional (if present, must be touchtone)
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340 Box should be as small as possible (target: cigarette pack size)
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341 Kit or plans acceptable. FCC certification optional.
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342 In case you are wondering, this is for use between a "headset"
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343 intended to replace a normal handset & a TRS-80 Model 100. The
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344 Model 100 has PULSE dialing capability thru a built-in direct
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345 connect modem & will function as an auto-dialer WITH or WITHOUT
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346 use of the modem! I think it's kind of silly to have a "handset"
|
||
347 the size of a set of Walkman(R)(or TM or whatever) headphones, a
|
||
348 computer/terminal/autodialer the size of a SMALL hardback & then
|
||
349 be stuck with a phone that is "bulkier" than BOTH.
|
||
350 PLEASE make suggestions, offer help etc!
|
||
351 _____________________________Leonard___________________________
|
||
352 TO: ALL
|
||
353 FROM: LINDA
|
||
354
|
||
355 PERSONALIZED BOOKEEPING SERVICE AVAILABLE. I SPECIALIZE IN
|
||
356 SMALL BUSINESS BOOKEEPING/FINANCIAL REPORTING. COMPLETE--
|
||
357 INFORMATIVE--FEES NEGOTIABLE.
|
||
358
|
||
359 CALL 661-xxxx
|
||
360
|
||
361 ---------------------------------
|
||
362 Idea for a product: I often find myself simultaneously wanting to use my
|
||
363 computer and TV. That is, I want to watch a TV program, and do some editing
|
||
364 or something. And I'm not too bothered if the program isn't all that clean.
|
||
365 Light bulb flashes! Mix the computer and TV signal, so that you can see both.
|
||
366 At a moment's notice, you can control the mix such that you can eliminate one
|
||
367 or the other signal. So during the boring commercials you can zap them, or
|
||
368 stop the computer signal during chase scenes.
|
||
369 **************************************************** P. V. Jeltz
|
||
370 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 28 Sep 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
|
||
371 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 19:30 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
|
||
372 DOM, I meant that such evidence takes time to gather, and my time
|
||
373 is severely limited right now--for instance, I should be trussing up
|
||
374 my belongings tonight, for a change in residence is coinciding with
|
||
375 this conversation--but I wanted to leave the promise that I am not
|
||
376 abandoning the Backwater! Comparing the quest for proof of a creator
|
||
377 to searching for a dime in one's pocket is quite the oversimplication
|
||
378 of an issue, DOM. In roughly a week, I'll buy out time from sleep
|
||
379 to come back and present a side of the debate regarding god/the Bible
|
||
380 that is not well represented on the Backwater.
|
||
381 A comment was made regarding the authenticity of the Bible's
|
||
382 authorship earlier, as follows: "There is not a shred of evidence
|
||
383 that would stand up in a properly conducted court of reason." It
|
||
384 brought to mind a quote from a certain Salmon P. Chase, former chief
|
||
385 justice of the US Supreme Court, who questioned the Bible, as well.
|
||
386 He decided to examine it as he would examine any matter in court,
|
||
387 taking evidence for it and against it. What was the result? I quote:
|
||
388 "It was a long, serious, and profound study: and using the same
|
||
389 principles of evidence in this religious matter as I always do in
|
||
390 secular matters, I have come to the decision that the Bible is a
|
||
391 supernatural book, that it has come from God." But I don't feel
|
||
392 that one quote should convice a person yea or nay; rather, I feel
|
||
393 that each person should embark on their own investigation. How
|
||
394 does the Bible measure up to history and science when it touches
|
||
395 on these? How well--and why--has it been preserved through the
|
||
396 centuries? What evidence of prophetic fullfillment has there been?
|
||
397 What makes it different from other religious writings? Finally,
|
||
398 does it have true internal harmony, which would be evidence of one
|
||
399 author? All of these are questions I myself have queried on, and
|
||
400 subsequently found satisfying answers--i.e., solid evidence and
|
||
401 clear reasoning to support the response. So...next week!
|
||
402 Aaron, my sister was quite taken by your greeting, and she
|
||
403 relayed this via slow, scratching pen, as follows:
|
||
404 | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * |
|
||
405 To: Aaron From: Lori
|
||
406 Yes, I am well. Your graciousness moves me for I felt that I
|
||
407 was "a mist appearing for a short while and then disappearing."
|
||
408 West Seattle High West School is where I graduated from.
|
||
409 Farewell, sweet friend!
|
||
410 | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * |
|
||
411 Aaiee, the time! I meant to stay but a few minutes at the Inn,
|
||
412 and still yet I tarry, trying to compose a small ode of appreciation
|
||
413 to Leonard, for his thought-provokers...but alas, I cannot.
|
||
414 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
|
||
415 I have never been very impressed by religionists, mainly because the ones
|
||
416 I've met tend to be single-minded airheads. I'm not talking, by the way, about the run-of-the-mill, man-on-the street
|
||
417 believer, of course. The difference is clear: I have known some people for a number of years, and for most of them
|
||
418 I never learned what religion they practiced. But there are some people whose very language is filled with religious
|
||
419 keywords, and anyone can tell in five minutes or less that they have religion on the brain.
|
||
420 Most people do not feel the need to raise the question of religion in ordinary conversation, and they do not.
|
||
421 While the example of the airport-type-Moonies may be a bit exaggerated, this type of devotion is not unusual.
|
||
422 You could mistake my previous example as an incidence of guilt-by-association argument, but it is not. Most
|
||
423 churchgoers seem to be reasonably well adjusted people, who can control themselves.
|
||
424
|
||
425 Excess in anything should be criticized, but organized religions seem to be so happy to get such devoted people that
|
||
426 they conveniently ignore their seemingly mindedless devotion and exasperating peristence. To be perfectly honest,
|
||
427 evangelicals tend to be detested by mainstream religion, but only because the evangelicals seem to imply that since they
|
||
428 pray harder, they are better people.
|
||
429
|
||
430 Let's hear some comments. Have you ever met a person who seems to have religion on the brain, who cannot speak
|
||
431 for five minutes without using the words 'bless' or 'pray' etc,. If you have, you will know it. If you haven't, count
|
||
432 yourself lucky.
|
||
433 )()()()()()()()()()()()()()()))))()()()()()()()()()()()()()()Anon()()()()()()()()()(
|
||
434 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
435 OUTSIDE, BESIDE MY DOOR IS A SIGN THAT SIMPLY STATES "NO SOLICITING". YOU WOULD THINK THAT ANY ONE WHO IS ABLE TO READ
|
||
436 THE BIBLE COULD READ AND UBDERSTAND THAT SIMPLE PHRASE. BUT NO SUCH LUCK! ALMOST WEEKLY THERE IS SOME, BIBLE IN HAND, IDIOT
|
||
437 TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO HIS/HER WAY OF THOUGHT. THEN THERE IS ALSO MY MAILBOX THAT GETS ABUSED BY THESE SAME IDIOTS.
|
||
438 IT ALREADY COST ME A BUNDLE FOR GARBAGE REMOVAL BUT I STILL HAVE TO PAY TO HAVE THIS JUNK CARRIED AWAY, I DON'T HAVE A
|
||
439 FIREPLACE OR WOOD STOVE TO BURN IT IN, PERHAPS IF I DID I MIGHT WELCOME THE FLYERS AND TRACTS THAT FIND THERE WAY TO ME. AFTER
|
||
440 ALL AT LEAST THEY COULD BE PUT TO USE BY KEEPING ME WARM. SINCE, HOWEVER THEY CAN'T, I DO WISH THE DO-GOODERS OF THIS WORLD
|
||
441 WOULD LEARN TO READ AND SAVE THEIR POSTAGE.
|
||
442 THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH:
|
||
443
|
||
444 ++++++++++++++P.O.ED++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
445 Wow! This is a wWEIRD BBS. I've been a computer hobbyist for about 8
|
||
446 years, but I just got my firstmodem yesterday (A Novation J-Cat:
|
||
447 Auto Dial/Answer for $115 -- I highly recommend it) and so I've been
|
||
448 just kind of dialing around examining the BBS'Ss of Portland. Is there
|
||
449 a way, may I ask, to sort the religious discussion from the rest of the
|
||
450 file. ? Or is that the whole point of the bulletin board? I sure am
|
||
451 impressed, though, that someone has been generous enough to devote the
|
||
452 resources for an undertaking of this magnitude. Anyone else out there
|
||
453 own a IBM-PC?
|
||
455 Bart Massey (bart @ REED)
|
||
456
|
||
457
|
||
458 ----------------------------------------------------
|
||
459
|
||
460 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
|
||
461
|
||
462 Mikey: No contest.
|
||
463
|
||
464 d: I will be patiently awaiting your evidence.
|
||
465
|
||
466 Bart: I believe the adjective I used the first time on BWMS was also "wierd".
|
||
467 Now that I am a participant I prefer the word "unique". BWMS may not be
|
||
468 terribly practical, but as an amusement it more than suffices.
|
||
469 There is no ability to sort on BWMS (at least if there is, it is kept
|
||
470 secret). I'm not sure if you wanted to locate or to avoid religious dis-
|
||
471 cussions. You can find specific keywords by typing NU Y on one line
|
||
472 following the > prompt (which causes line numbers to be displayed) then
|
||
473 typing on next line FA keyword .
|
||
474 So for example, if you wanted to find religious discussions, you might type:
|
||
475
|
||
476 >NU Y
|
||
477 >FA God
|
||
478
|
||
479 then the system would return all lines including "God" as follows:
|
||
480
|
||
481 201-BLAH..BLAH..BLAH..God..BLAH.....
|
||
482 232-God..BLAH..BLAH............
|
||
483
|
||
484 To begin printing everything after line 201, type:
|
||
485
|
||
486 LN 201
|
||
487 NU N
|
||
488 PRINT
|
||
489
|
||
490 Wierdness has its place. Try it.
|
||
491
|
||
492 Leonard: You are absolutely right!
|
||
493 (Caught you of guard , didn't I?)
|
||
494 I am refferring to your statement that it is often necessary and/or beneficial
|
||
495 to consult authorities. I have never contested this; I only meant to suggest
|
||
496 that 1) Some people apply logic to relate the new information with that
|
||
497 which they have already assimilated in order to ascertain whether or not that
|
||
498 source of info is indeed a valid authority on the particular subject,
|
||
499 while others blindly accept the new information, assuming that the authority
|
||
500 is valid because it proclaimed itself so and that authorities are incapable
|
||
501 of error or deception.
|
||
502 2) Some fail to discern whether the subject is appropriate to the particular
|
||
503 authority. For example, it would be inappropriate to consult an anatomy
|
||
504 book for information on Japanese constitutional law. Yet you are
|
||
505 consulting a collection of history books, novels and diaries for in-
|
||
506 formation regarding cosmography.
|
||
507 The subject of discussion was not Christian doctrine; it was the validity
|
||
508 of that doctrine. A physics experiment is an observation of reality,
|
||
509 not of someones concept of reality; also "authority" implies intellegence
|
||
510 which when imputed to the universe, presupposes the existence of a deity,
|
||
511 which is the very point we are disputing. Who was it that spoke of
|
||
512 circular arguments??????
|
||
513 Surely you can see that stating "The exstence of God cannot be proven
|
||
514 because there is no evidence!" in no way whatsoever implies that something
|
||
515 CAN be proven by the lack of evidence.
|
||
516 It was sufficient to inform me that you
|
||
517 lack proficiency in proofs (and elementary logic); I did not require
|
||
518 a demonstration!
|
||
519 Let's avoid any further blatent disregard for the rules of logic!
|
||
520
|
||
521 Dirty Ol' Man
|
||
522
|
||
523 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
|
||
524
|
||
525 PS to all ergonomics enthusiasts:
|
||
526 In case you're interested, PSU will be offering class on above subject
|
||
527 next (winter) term. Perception is a recommended prerequisite (and is
|
||
528 offerred this term), but I don't think it is required. These courses are
|
||
529 offerred by psychology dept.
|
||
530
|
||
531 Dirty
|
||
532
|
||
533 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
|
||
534
|
||
535 As to the question about logic vs learning, comments in the scientific
|
||
536 circles debating the w!y humans learn circle around the same process
|
||
537 we called scientific method: see a phenomenon, propose a theory about why
|
||
538 it happened and test the theory. Bad logic may lead to a theory, in fact
|
||
539 it is proposed creativity is only ramdomness. Then test it against other
|
||
540 observations. The truth is whatever doesn't conflict. we all carry out
|
||
541 this invent and test procedure apparantly. However, the idea of inventing
|
||
542 wrong theories is critcised by some as impeding teaching. Somehow I don't
|
||
543 think we will ever all agree on one right way, since I suspect there is
|
||
544 more than one way.
|
||
545 ////////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
|
||
546 DOM: sorry, I do see what you mean. What I should have said was
|
||
547 that lack of evidence is NOT the same as unprovability. The
|
||
548 person in question also missed the rather subtle distinction
|
||
549 between "can be proven" & "may be proven".
|
||
550 As I said, I'm out of practice (about 10 years worth of
|
||
551 out of practice!).
|
||
552 To: Whom it may concern (sorry) There is a "good" reason for
|
||
553 giving religions tax-exempt status. Loosely stated, "the power
|
||
554 to tax is the power to control". Or, if the IRS doesn't like
|
||
555 your church -- BOY ARE YOU GONNA GET IT!
|
||
556 Note however, that I feel that in many cases this
|
||
557 privilege is being abused. Somehow, I find it hard to justify
|
||
558 a tax-exempt status for an apartment complex run by the church.
|
||
559 But as long as they aren't GETTING money from the government,
|
||
560 I can live with it. Once you start trying to say this should be
|
||
561 exempt & this shouldn't, you're right back where we started.
|
||
562
|
||
563 To: d
|
||
564 Thank you, I am using a method practiced by the late
|
||
565 John W. Campbell. One of his favorite pastimes was getting you
|
||
566 to express a definite stand on a subject (it didn't matter
|
||
567 what the stand WAS). He would then do his best to come up with
|
||
568 a "logical, reasonable, etc" argument for the exact opposite!
|
||
569 The results (see most of his editorials) were (to quote Mr.
|
||
570 Spock) "Fascinating". The main purpose was to FORCE you to
|
||
571 THINK.
|
||
572 Most people seem to think that if you have heard "both
|
||
573 sides" in an argument, that you have all the info. People also
|
||
574 think that one of the sides must be "right" (after all, right
|
||
575 & wrong are the only choices aren't they?). The only exception
|
||
576 to this "two-valued" "logic" is the saying: Two wrongs don't
|
||
577 make a right. Unfortunately, most of us seem to operate on the
|
||
578 exact opposite. I trust everyone can see why I mention this,
|
||
579 consider several recent topics of debate (to say nothing of the
|
||
580 current topic). If not, I MAY attempt to explain.
|
||
581 _________________________Leonard_______________________________
|
||
582
|
||
583
|
||
584
|
||
585
|
||
586 HARI KRISHNA, HARI KRIAISHNA, HARI KRISHNA, HARI............ETC
|
||
587
|
||
588 Actually, the right NOT to be taxed is also the power to control. Those that
|
||
589 aren't taxed but still can use tax-supported services (sewers, fire and
|
||
590 police protection, etc.) can gain power out of all proportion to their numbers
|
||
591 or riches. If you find that hard to believe, check the Washington County board
|
||
592 of records to find out who is the largest single landowner in the county.
|
||
593 You'll find out that it's the Catholic church, and that the average
|
||
594 individual taxpayer pays more taxes than the entire church organization does.
|
||
595 Perhaps they shouldn't be taxed, but something must be done to divert the power
|
||
596 that can be gained by tax-exempt status.
|
||
597 \\\\\\\\\\\Barf the Barbarian///////////
|
||
598
|
||
599 *****************j***************************************************
|
||
600 On Friday and Saturday (Sept 30 and Oct 1) C&L Terminals will be
|
||
601 having a garage sale from 9 AM until 3 PM each day.
|
||
602 Items include used computer terminals and modems as well as
|
||
603 used office furniture.
|
||
604 The address is SE Ivon (1 block south of Division on 12th)
|
||
605 Phone: 231-xxxx
|
||
606
|
||
607 *****.***********************************.********j*****j*.:*********
|
||
608 ****
|
||
609 ****
|
||
610 ****
|
||
611 ****
|
||
612 ****
|
||
613 ****
|
||
614 ****
|
||
615 ****
|
||
616 ****
|
||
617 ****
|
||
618 ****
|
||
619 ****
|
||
620 ****
|
||
621 ****
|
||
622 ****
|
||
623 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
||
624 HEY MIKEY - I BET IF I GO AWAY FOR A HALF HOUR YOU'LL CHANGE THE DISK
|
||
625 READY TO PURSUE THESE CONVERGING DEBATES AT LENGTH AFTER THAT. NEED SPACE
|
||
626 TO SHOOT OFF MOUTH
|
||
627 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR, THE TAOIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
||
628 T.G. AND E.D WAS HERE
|
||
629 KEEP ON TRUCKIN
|
||
|