578 lines
35 KiB
Plaintext
578 lines
35 KiB
Plaintext
FILE ON
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FILE UNSAFE
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MARGIN IS 80
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STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
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NUMBER OF LINES: 596
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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
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2 ********************** REMOVED: 29 SEP 83 **************************
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3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
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4 ************************************************************
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5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
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6 THIS SYSTEM.
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7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
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8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
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9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
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10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
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11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
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12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
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13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
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14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
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15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
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16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
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17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
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18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
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19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
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20 use the replace command to replace the line.
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21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
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22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
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23 ========================================
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24
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25 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
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26 To CYM and DOM ect.
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27 While it is true that religon has had significant roles in many wars,
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28 it is very nieve to think that it is the only cause. No war is brought
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29 about due to one thing. There are a multitude of things which lead up to
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30 war. The one reason that people like to quote as the cause of a war is
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31 really only the final straw in an overloaded burden that sets off the war.
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32 Shall we take WWII? I have heard a great many of things said to be
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33 the cause of this war. Was it religon? Was it economic? Was it a power
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34 struggle? In reality it was all of these and more. Even the desire to not
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35 war was a part of the problem, for it allowed things to build to a point
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36 where world war was inevitable. The economic situation in Germany allowed
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37 Hitler to come to power. Hitler's beliefs and thirst for power allowed
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38 him to do so. The beleif by hs followers and the populance that he knew
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39 what he was doing allowed him to make war on those around. The fear of
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40 getting into yet another war prevented the surrounding countries from
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41 helping to stop him. These are only a few of the things which allowed
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42 the war to happen. It is never such a simple thing as you seem to beleive.
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43 The time when people will say no to war despite the prodings of the
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44 leaders will be the time that we have truly reached civilization. Until
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45 then we are no better then animals fighting amongst ourselves. By the
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46 way, for what it is worth, even animals make war on each other, and
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47 murder each other, and not just for the sake of food or survival. Did
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48 you know that when a new stalion Zebra takes over a heard that he will
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49 herase any pregnant mares until they spontaniously abort? Or what about
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50 the tribe of monkeys in africa which made war on a neigboring tribe and
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51 wiped them out completly over a 5 year span. What of the gorilas who
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52 are not adverse to killing the old and frail because they are no longer
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53 a productive part of the community, and therefor a drain? Or that when
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54 a new leader takes over he will kill any babies that are there
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55 presumibaly because they are not his. The strange thing is that the
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56 females will become immediatly receptive upon this occurance. Even if
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57 they are already preganant, or he has just killed their baby.
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58 No, we are no better then the animals that we profess to be above.
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59 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Watermark %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
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60 ###############################################################################
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61 WATERMARK: YOUR ABOVE STATEMENTS ARE VERY INTERESTING BUT I FAIL TO BELIEVE
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62 WHAT YOU ARE STATING WITHOUT SOME SUBSTANCIATION OF YOUR 'FACTS'. I WAS RAISED
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63 IN EUROPE DURRING THE WWII YEARS, WARSAW IN 1938-39, PARIS, 39-40, MADRID 40,
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64 AND THE DURATION TILL THE DEATH OF F.D.R IN GREAT BRITTON,. TO THIS DAY I SHALL
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65 ALWAYS REMEMBER THE RELIGIOUS ASPECTS OF THAT WAR MUCH MORRE CLEARLY THAN ANY
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66 OTHER. I SAW BIGOTRY IN ACTION EVEN AMONGST OUR ALLIES.
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67
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68 DOM: THANKS, MAYBE WE SHOULD START OUR OWN 'CHURCH'. WE COULD ALWAYS USE THE
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69 MENTIONED "HITCHIKERS GUIDE" AS OUR UR "BIBLE".
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70
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71 ###################C.Y.M.######################################################
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72 *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
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73 Aaron:
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74 Thanks for the lesson, I'm sure it helped alot of people. I even learned
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75 some new things...The prince also belatedly thanks you for your gracious
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76 welcome.
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77 All:
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78 On the Christianity issue, someone above mentioned the main reason I
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79 became a doubtful agnostic at age 12. Christians believe that man is
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80 inherantly evil, i.e. the concept of original sin. Thus if a man lives
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81 his life better than 99% of Christians and makes a logical decision to
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82 reject Jesus and the Church he is doomed. I find this paradox to be
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83 unacceptable. In my mind man is not inherantly evil, nor should he be
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84 punished for a choice that he makes honestly and logically even if it
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85 turns out to be wrong.
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86 Michael
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87 *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
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88
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89 }
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90 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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91 AARON, I'M TERRIBLY SORRY THAT I DIDN'T ANSWER YOU SOONER, I'VE HAD A
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92 VERY HARD TIME GETTING ONTO THE SYSTEM LATELY. AS TO CONTEMPORARY
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93 EDUCATION, I'M HOPING THAT YOU CAN GIVE ME A LITTLE INFORMATION AS TO
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94 THE DIRECTIONS THAT ARE BEING TAKEN (AS I ASSUME THAT YOU ARE STILL IN
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95 PUBLIC SCHOOL). AS I SAID, LOGIC AND CRITICAL THINKING WAS PART OF
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96 THE CURRICULUM IN HIGH SCHOOL, AS PART OF ENGLISH AND WRITING. TODAY,
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97 IT SEEMS THAT FEW PEOPLE THAT COME OUT OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE AWARE OF
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98 HOW AN ARGUMENT IS CONSTRUCTED, OR WHAT THE RULES OF LOGIC ARE. ALSO,
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99 AS SO MUCH OF ENGLISH IS BASED ON LATIN, I HAVE FOUND IT VERY IMPORTANT
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100 FOR UNDERSTANDING A WORD I'VE NEVER SEEN BEFORE BY EXAMINING ITS LATIN
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101 ROOTS. BUT LATIN ISN'T EVEN OFFERED AS AN ELECTIVE TODAY, FROM WHAT
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102 I'VE HEARD, AND I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY. PERHAPS YOU COULD ELUCIDATE?
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103 BY THE WAY, I AM USING MA 76 NOW, SO THE PEOPLE WITHOUT WRAP-AROUND CAN
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104 READ MY BLAH-DLAH-AND-MORE-BLAH.
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105 IN REGARD TO THE RELIGION ISSUE, I FIND THAT, WHILE I AGREE THAT
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106 RELIGION IS A SOURCE OF GREAT PAIN AND SORROW IN THIS WORLD, I THINK
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107 THAT IT IS USUALLY USED AS JUSTIFICATION FOR WAR, RATHER THAN THE REASON
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108 FOR THE WAR ITSELF. THOSE IN POWER THAT WANT A WAR TO CREATE GAIN FOR
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109 THEMSELVES OR TO HELP THEIR EGOS USE IT TO FIRE THEIR SUBJECTS UP AND
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110 GIVE THEM A "REASON" FOR FIGHTING AND PERISHING. THEY CYNICALLY USE
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111 THE FAITH OF THEIR PEOPLE FOR THEIR OWN PURPOSES, AND THEY USUALLY DON'T
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112 BELIEVE IN GOD THEMSELVES.
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113 WWII HAD SO MANY CAUSES THAT IF WE WANT TO DISCUSS THEM ALL, WE
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114 WILL BE ON THE SUBJECT FOR A LOOOOOOONG TIME. IN MANY WAYS, WWII CAN BE
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115 CONSIDERED A CONTINUATION OF WWI DUE TO THE WORLD-WIDE DEPRESSION IT
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116 CREATED THROUGH RUINED ECONOMIES AND THE TOTAL ELIMINATION OF WORKING
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117 CAPITAL THROUGHOUT EUROPE. PLUS, THE TREATY OF VERSAILLES MADE IT
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118 CERTAIN THAT A NEW WAR WOULD HAPPEN, AS IT STRIPPED GERMANY OF NEARLY
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119 ALL OF ITS INDUSTRY AND CAPITAL BY THE REPARATIONS THAT HAD TO BE MADE.
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120 SHORT OF LETTING EVERYONE STARVE, THEY HAD LITTLE CHOICE BUT CONTINUE
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121 ON A WAR ECONOMY THAT WOULD FEED SOME OF THE PEOPLE. PLUS, THE TREATY
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122 CREATED SO MANY PROBLEMS THAT A HANDY SCAPEGOAT HAD TO BE FOUND, AND
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123 THE ANCIENT HATRED OF JEWS CAME IN QUITE HANDY FOR THAT PURPOSE.
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124 WOODROW WILSON PREDICTED THAT DIRE AND TERRIBLE CONSEQUENCES WOULD BE
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125 THE RESULT OF THE TREATY, BUT HE WAS IGNORED IN THE DESIRE TO EXACT
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126 THE REVENGE THAT THE PEOPLE WANTED.
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127 d, I WISH THAT I HAD YOUR STYLE!! I ADMIRE YOUR ABILITIES AND
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128 HOPE THAT YOU WILL STAY AROUND A LONG TIME. THOSE THAT COMPLAIN ABOUT
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129 POETRY USUALLY ARE EMBARRESSED BY THE EMOTIONS EXPRESSED, AND FIND
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130 THAT THEY CAN'T EXPRESS THEIR OWN WELL. I CAN'T ALWAYS EXPRESS MINE WELL
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131 BUT I ADMIRE THOSE THAT CAN.
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132 ONE MORE COMMENT ON THE RELIGION TOPIC: THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
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133 CAN'T BE PROVED OR DISPROVED TO MINE (OR ANYONE ELSES) SATISFACTION, SO
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134 THE QUESTION OF ITS EXISTENCE IS MOOT. EXIST OR NOT, THE UNIVERSE IS
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135 WHAT IT IS, AND WON'T CHANGE FOR YOU OR ME. I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD, NOR
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136 DO I DISBELIEVE. I MERELY WAIT FOR GOD TO OFFER PROOF OF ITS EXISTENCE,
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137 AND THEN I WILL DECIDE.
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138 MIKEY, YES I DID CHANGE! I CHANGE THE CHARACTER DEPENDING UPON MY
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139 EMOTIONAL STATE OR THE DIRECTION OF THE COMMENTS I HAVE MADE. I LOVE
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140 OBSERVANT PEOPLE!!!
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141 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM![][][][][][]
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142 I wish people using this system would learn to spell. This means you, WATERMARK
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143 ########################################
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144 PAM: YOU JUST MADE MY POINT MUCH BETTER THAN I DID. IF IT WASN'T FOR RELIGION
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145 THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR WAR. TAKE AWAY THE REASON AND YOU TAKE AWAY THE CAUSE
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146 IF THERE IS NOTHING TO BLAME IT ON THEN WHO CAN FOLLOW BLINDLY THELEADER THAT
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147 CALLS US TO ARMS TO BETTER HIS FINANCIAL BEING.
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148
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149 #####################################################C.Y.M.#####################
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150 to all
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151 All this talk on religion is pure poppycock. I'm with the guy that stated that it would take more tiTaylor
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163 I don't get what all the talk about past wars will help.
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164 How about talking what can stop the war to come.
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165
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166 gordon taylor
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180
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181 Pam, having survived more schooling than I can stand, may I comment on a
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182 few of you questions about education.
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183 Rules of debate were often taught under the name of logic, but debating
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184 is like war, rules are for breaking unless they help you. What is called
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185 logic now is not the same thing. Philosophy and logic are now considerd
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186 sub sets of mathematics. What I was taught under that name was more that
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187 useless: it made me hate the subject. As to the teaching of Latin, and
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188 its use in understanding modern English, it was generally a failure simply
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189 because it wasn't taught that way. Trying to learn a dead language by having
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190 it crammed down your throat doesn't work. I did, however, learn a lot about
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191 Latin & its use in deciphering English technical terms from a course in
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192 BIOLOGY. I think the course name is less important than how the teacher
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193 feels about his/her subject. I would think some of the origions and
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194 relationships between words would belong in English classes, but never
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195 having met a competent English teacher, I wouldn't know (competent implies
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196 able to interest the students) But then a competent person is not likely
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197 to be willing to work for the lousy pay they geve teachers.
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198 ////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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199
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200 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
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201
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202 Watermark: What does "nieve" mean?
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203 Although your intent was apparently to contest that religion
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204 is the root of war, you have failed to do so. Perhaps my original disertation
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205 on the subject lacked clarity. It is not my contention that the cause of
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206 war is singular, rathar that most of the causes have a common root;
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207 religion. For example, consider economics. Few would deny that economics
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208 is often a motivation for war; what, though, is the root cause of economic
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209 ills and greed? Most often, religion. The scientific community, throughout
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210 its existence, has seeked truth, and as a by-product, considerably im-
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211 proved the standard of human life and in general, the world economy. What
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212 could have needed achieved had they not needed drag the anchor "religion"
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213 throughout history.
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214 ################################
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215 This system has problems tonight.
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216 ################################
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217 Anyway, consider the standard of living that might be predicted for
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218 the year 2283, assuming we survive or avert WWIII. Now consider that this
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219 standard of living could have been realized by 1983 (conservative estimate)
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220 had it not been for the first milennium Christians who convinced the
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221 populace of the world that life on earth would be extinguished in the
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222 year 1000ad, and thereby created a 300+ year era of scientific apathy
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223 known as the Dark Ages. Also how many years has the Inquisition set us back
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224 by the murder of scientific innovators and the suppression of progress.
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225
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226
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227 Comparing humans to animals is like comparing chrysanthemums to plants.
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228 If you are suggesting that the Human
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229 race has not yet begun to evolve
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230 sociologically then I agree wholeheartedly.
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231 I found very interesting a recent article in "Discover" magazine regarding
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232 current research in DNA analysis which seems to indicate that we are much
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233 closer to our ape ancestors than most of us care to admit. In fact, DNA
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234 comparisons of human, chimpanzee and gorilla DNA show that (in evolutionary
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235 terms) the human-chimpanzee relationship is closer than that of gorillas
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236 and chimpanzees. Anyone who suggests that humans are not animals is
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237 speaking emotionally, not logically unless they also claim that chimps
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238 are not animals.
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239
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240 Dirty Ol' Man
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241
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242 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
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243
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244 9/25/83 11:33 PM:
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245
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246 THIS IS THE BEST DISCUSSION I'VE SEEN ON HERE FOR AGES: KEEP IT UP!
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247
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248 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
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249
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250 Unsigned above: (not to be confused with Anonymous, formerly formerly
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251 Unsigned)
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252 Thank You, but where's your contribution?
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253 Express yourself!
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254
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255 Mikey: The system seems to be generating its own characters on
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256 occasion tonight; specifically Carriage Returns and Backspaces.
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257 Any Ideas?
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258
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259 Dirty
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260
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261 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
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262
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263 [{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|
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264 O thou misguided ones:
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265 Why doest thou deify this mortal, Jesus Christ? Enlightenment warrants
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266 respect; only descent from the court of Zeus warrants worship.
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267
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268 =Apollo=
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269 [{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|
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270 ........................
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271 d, you beleive there is such a thing as a literal translation, that differs
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272 from a paraphrase. all translations are inherently paraphrases, but don't
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273 let this scare you. Anything that would keep any translation true also applies
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274 to a paraphrase. A "literal" translation would perhaps be one in which each
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275 word was replaced with an exact equivlaent in the new language, but if so it
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276 would be unreadable & probably meaningless, as each word is different, and
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277 no direct synonym exists; in addition the order of the words has meaning that
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278 changes with the language. a further problem is that the bible contains
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279 poetry, some of which will be lost in any translation. No comment about the
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280 changes in culture that make oblique references incomprehensible.
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281 As to the most basic meaning of the Bible, the Old Testament says "I am God",
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282 The New says "believe in me, and be saved" Along with this the Old gives the
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283 laws and history, and some idea as to how a saved person is expected to act.
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284 What is read into it is far more than is written.
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285 Back to the question of true translations: there are several known errors
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286 in the King James version (by far the most widely read), both of fact and
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287 simple typos that have remained due to tradition. Even more important is the
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288 problem of the language: something written in 1611 isn't written in moern
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289 English. This is the only Bible to many
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290 ///////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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291
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292 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
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293
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294 Leonard: THINK!!
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295 Is not -i=i^3??
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296 So just cube SQR(i) and simplify.
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297
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298 Dirty
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299
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300 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
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301
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302 *******************************************************************
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303 All this talk of late reminds me of a quote by Emily Dickinson
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304 "People talk of hallowed things aloud, and embarass my dog."
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305 ********* CISTOP MIKEY ********* 26 SEPT 83 ******** 8:52 AM ******
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306 DOM: Sorry, it's been a LONG time since I had to do proofs!
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307
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308 To: ALL Re: Religions & war
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309 I beg to differ with many of the arguments given. Specifically,
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310 that RELIGION is the main cause/excuse for wars. If you check back
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311 you will find that MONOTHEISTIC religion is the main problem.
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312 This is because it leads to the "we're right & everybody else is
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313 wrong" point of view. The Romans & Greeks weren't all that threatened
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314 by other people's religions, they would quite often make sacrifices to other
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315 people's gods (just to play it safe!). Unfortunately, there are
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316 some arguments that say Monotheism (& the greater degree of order
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317 it required of the Universe) is responsible for the development
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318 of Science.
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319 Oh, by the way it is possible that God's existence could
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320 be proven (note: This is NOT the same as saying that God's existence
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321 CAN be proven. ie a proof may or may not exist, but the question
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322 is not inherently unprovable). BUT, it is NOT possible to prove
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323 that God doesn't exist! This is why I consider atheism to be at
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324 least as much of an act of faith as any other religion. Personally,
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325 I believe that God exists, however I'm not about to go any farther
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326 than that (this is known as deism, many agnostics are really deists!)
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327 ___________________________Leonard__________________________
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328 ########################################
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329 AS TO PROVING THE EXISTANCE OF 'GOD', I FIND IT HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT THIS
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330 CAN BE DONE. AFTER ALL YOU ARE WORKING WITH AN INTANGIBLE FIGMENT OF THE I
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331 IMAGINATION. THERE IS NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE THAT WOULD STAND UP IN A PROP-
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332 ERLY CONDUCTED COURT OF REASON. AFTERALL ALL THE EVIDENCE IS HEEARSAY!!! T
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333 ALL THEHE 'EYE WITNESSES' HAVE LONG SINCE SHUFFLED OFF THIS MORTAL COIL. OUR
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334 FOUNDING FATHERS MUST HAVE REALIZED THIS WHEN THEY SERARATED CHURCH FROM S
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335 STATE. THE ONLY THING IS THAT THEY DIDN'T SEPARATE IF FAR ENOUGH. GIVING TAX
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336 BREAKS ETC JUST RECOGNIZES ENOUGH OF IT TO KEEP IT REARING ITS UGLY HEAD IN
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337 ALL OF OUR LIVES DAILY. I SAY IF WE MAKE RELIGION STAND ON ITS OWN TWO FEET
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338 AND PAY ITS OWN WAY WE WOULD HAVE A LOT FEWER PROBLEMS.
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339
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340 ##################C.Y.M.####################################################
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341 Indeed, a further possibility is that our 'God' is not the most powerful
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342 or important one. I have often amused myself with the idea that the univers
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343 e as we know it is merely a graduate thesis of a lowly student in the
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344 school of deities-to-be. Someday, the thesis will be graded, then tossed
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345 into a super-universal garbage can, or set on the shelf of a pan-dimensional
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346 college library.
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347 Maybe our graduate student, err..... God, is inexperienced,
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348 which would explain why the world seems so screwed up at times. He may
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349 be egotistical, which explains why he wants us to think that he is the
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350 one and only big shot.
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351 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: P. V. Jeltz::::::::::::::
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352
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353 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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354 CYM, YOU DIDN'T INTERPRET WHAT I SAID CORRECTLY. I DIDN'T SAY
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355 THAT THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR WAR IF THERE WAS NO RELIGION. I
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356 SAID THAT RELIGION IS FREQUENTLY USED AS A RATIONALIZATION FOR WAR,
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357 OR AS A MEANS OF EXCITING THE POPULACE TO SUPPORTING A WAR. I DON'T
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358 THINK THAT RELIGION IS THE SOURCE OF WAR OR ITS REASON AS OFTEN AS
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359 TERRITORIALITY AND THE DESIRE FOR POWER IS. AS AN EXAMPLE, IRELAND
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360 WAS AT ONE TIME STRICTLY CATHOLIC, AND ENGLAND PROTESTANT. WHEN
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361 ENGLAND OVERTHREW THE IRISH KINGS, THEY KNEW THAT THE CATHOLIC IRISH
|
||
362 WOULD NEVER SUPPORT A PROTESTANT RULE, SO THEY IMPORTED ENGLISH AND
|
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363 SCOTTISH PROTESTANTS TO BE THE LOCAL RULERS AND LANDOWNERS. THIS
|
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364 LED TO A WAR (WHICH CONTINUES CENTURIES LATER) BETWEEN CATHOLICS AND
|
||
365 PROTESTANTS, THE CATHOLICS TOTALLY AND FIERCELY NATIONALISTIC, AND
|
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366 THE RULING PROTESTANTS LOYAL TO THE ENGLISH CROWN. THE MINORITY
|
||
367 PROTESTANTS WERE CONCENTRATED IN THE NORTH, AND WHEN IT BECAME
|
||
368 OBVIOUS THAT ENGLAND COULDN'T HOLD ALL OF IRELAND FOREVER, THEY
|
||
369 PARTITIONED THE COUNTRY BETWEEN NORTH AND SOUTH, AND HELD ONTO THE
|
||
370 PROTESTANT NORTH THAT CONTINUED LOYAL TO HER. SINCE THE NEW NORTHERN
|
||
371 IRELAND WAS MOSTLY LOYAL TO ENGLAND, SHE COULD SAY THAT NORTHERN
|
||
372 IRELAND, A "SEPARATE COUNTRY", WANTED TO REMAIN PART OF THE EMPIRE.
|
||
373 THIS IS A FINE EXAMPLE OF A RULER USING THE FAITH OF ITS FOLLOWERS TO
|
||
374 BRING ABOUT WHAT IT WANTED (AND A WAR THAT IT DIDN'T WANT). IT
|
||
375 WASN'T RELIGION THAT BROUGHT ABOUT THE WAR, BUT RELIGION WAS USED AS
|
||
376 ONE OF ITS WEAPONS, AND A TOOL TO HELP MANIPULATE ITS PAWNS.
|
||
377
|
||
378 MIKEY, YOU'RE CORRECT ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF MONOTHEISM. IT
|
||
379 SEEMS TO BE ONE OF THE LEAST TOLERANT OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIOUS STYLES
|
||
380 AVAILABLE, BUT I THINK THAT IF THE RULERS UNDER PANTHEISMS KNEW
|
||
381 OF THE POWER OF MANIPULATION THAT THE FAITH OF THEIR PEOPLE COULD
|
||
382 PROVIDE, THEY MIGHT HAVE USED IT TOO.
|
||
383 THEN AGAIN, MAYBE NOT...........
|
||
384 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM?[][][][][][]
|
||
385 WHERE DID WE COME FROM?
|
||
386 ** * * * * ***
|
||
387 * * * * * * *
|
||
388 * * * * * *
|
||
389 * *** * * *
|
||
390 * * * * * *
|
||
391 ** * * * *
|
||
392 * * **
|
||
393 * * * *
|
||
394 * * * *
|
||
395 * * ***
|
||
396 * * *
|
||
397 * * *
|
||
398 * *
|
||
399 **
|
||
400 ** ** * *
|
||
401 * ** * ** **
|
||
402 * ** * * * *
|
||
403 * ** * * *
|
||
404 ** ** * *
|
||
405
|
||
406
|
||
407
|
||
408
|
||
409 K
|
||
410 end
|
||
411
|
||
412
|
||
413
|
||
414 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 26 Sep 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
|
||
415 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20:19 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
|
||
416 The respect is mutual, Pam; your voice comes in like a tailored
|
||
417 melody amidst the raucous shouts risen in debate...for you are ever
|
||
418 'the voice of reason' making peace between the men!
|
||
419 Leonard, how excellent your remark regarding atheism being "as
|
||
420 much an act of faith as any other religion"--for if a person refuses
|
||
421 to seriously consider the evidence FOR a creator, is he not just as
|
||
422 reprehensible as those who dogmatically hold to the religion of their
|
||
423 upbringing, never even questioning it in their own minds?
|
||
424 Michael, though the churches may teach that "man is inherently
|
||
425 evil", the Bible does not. The Greek word for sin is literally trans-
|
||
426 lated as "to miss the mark" which denotes imperfection. No one can
|
||
427 lay claim to being perfect, so in that sense all are 'sinners'.
|
||
428 DOM, CYM, you cry out for evidence. So be it: the jist of your
|
||
429 words have been scrawled painstakingly (as well as yours, Pam, BAD, dp,
|
||
430 and Leonard) regarding the existence of a creator and the credibility
|
||
431 of the Bible so that I can respond; for ever I return after the echoes
|
||
432 of your arguments have dissipated into the Backwater's archives...
|
||
433 which reminds me, dear Innkeeper: how is it that my writings pick
|
||
434 themselves up and traipse to current disks?!
|
||
435 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
|
||
436 ########################################
|
||
437 PAM: I'M SORRY THASAT YOU MIDUNDERSTOOD MY THEORY THAT WITHOUT RELIGION THER
|
||
438 WOULD BE NO WAR. I MERELY STATED THAT THOSE WHO WAGE WAR WOULD HAVE NO ONE
|
||
439 TO BEAR THE ARMS IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE RELIGION TO USE AS AN EXCUSE. CAN'T YOU
|
||
440 JUST SEE ALL THE PEOPLE RUSHING TO SIGN UP TO GO AND FIGHT IN THE MID-EAST
|
||
441 IF IT WAS ADVERTISED AS 'LET'S LIBERATE STANDARD, EXXON, MOBIL, ETC WAR'
|
||
442 AFTER ALL THEY CAN'T MAKE THEIR OBSCENE PROFITS WITHOUT YOUR BLOODSHED! ERGO
|
||
443 THE RELIGIOUS THEME ALONG WITH MOTHER, APPLE PIE, AND LOOK WHAT THEY ARE
|
||
444 DOING TO THOSE POOR JEWS, OR CHRISTIANS OR WHOEVER HAPPENS TO DRAW THE BEST
|
||
445 CROWD THESE DAYS WHEN IT COME TO FIGHTING FOR "OUR RIGHTS".
|
||
446 ###################C.Y.M.###################################################
|
||
447
|
||
448 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
|
||
449
|
||
450 To the person above ("k"?) who wasted 27 lines to demonstrate his
|
||
451 semiartistic abilities: Perhaps next time you are faced with the dilema of
|
||
452 being unable to express your disagreement with my statements, due to the
|
||
453 lack of logical reasons for doing so, you can do something more creative,
|
||
454 such as illustrating a vertically extended middle finger.
|
||
455
|
||
456 Leonard: No problem. I too have found greater joys in life than
|
||
457 doing proofs, but if you plan on taking any math classes beyond
|
||
458 Calculus, I have dreadful news for you: YOU'RE STUCK WITH EM. Sorry!
|
||
459
|
||
460 Regarding the distinction between mono and polytheism, I believe you may
|
||
461 have a valid point; that monotheism presents a greater threat to the
|
||
462 well-being of mankind. Perhaps we have over-generalized a bit, but then
|
||
463 generalization is the essence of BWMS. Also the interpretation of the word
|
||
464 "religion" is debatable. Some would regard atheism as a religion. In the
|
||
465 sense that I have used it herein, it refers to any doctrine which advocates
|
||
466 the existence of one or more deities.
|
||
467 Whether or not monotheistic, though,
|
||
468 I still feel that any religion is to some extent detrimental in that it
|
||
469 consumes valuable time which could otherwise be dedicated to more pro-
|
||
470 ductive purposes, such as the betterment of the Human condition.
|
||
471 Other detriments depend on the specifics of the religion in question.
|
||
472
|
||
473 With regard to proof, I challenge anyone to prove anything (I am
|
||
474 speaking in the general sense of the words "proof" & "prove", not math-
|
||
475 ematical, logical, etc.) Why not start with something simpler than
|
||
476 the existance of god; how about your own existence, or the existance of
|
||
477 life, or that of BWMS. I sincerely doubt that ANYTHING can be proven.
|
||
478
|
||
479 P. V.: Interesting thought, but it has inspired an even more dreadful
|
||
480 one. Perhaps god is a .................high school student!
|
||
481 (Let's pray for summer vacation.)
|
||
482
|
||
483 d: I would be delighted to consider the evidence for the existance of a
|
||
484 creator, and as mentioned earlier, I spent seven years of my life attempting
|
||
485 to do so; but I found no evidence to consider. There is a practical time
|
||
486 limit for everything. If a person belives he has a dime in his pocket,
|
||
487 how long must he look without finding
|
||
488 it before concluding that he must have
|
||
489 been wrong?
|
||
490
|
||
491 With regard to your paragraph to Micheal, you say that man is not
|
||
492 inherantly evil, and in the same breath (keystroke) that all [men]
|
||
493 are sinners. I believe you have proven (if we are to accept your
|
||
494 assumptions) that sin is not evil. Was that your intention??
|
||
495
|
||
496 With regard to your paragraph to CYM and myself, I'm not sure I understand.
|
||
497 Are you saying that you have evidence but you prefer to keep us in suspence,
|
||
498 or that you need time to think?
|
||
499
|
||
500 Dirty Ol' Man
|
||
501
|
||
502 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
|
||
503
|
||
504 Having once read a story about a computer simulation that went astray: the
|
||
505 simulated town got religion, I laughed at the idea of a high school good.
|
||
506 but, to the simulation, the programmer IS god. he is omnipotent, and
|
||
507 unknowable. he gives the final verdict: do it my way, or I will pull the
|
||
508 plug. The town argues long abut what a plug is, but if they disobey...
|
||
509 More than one god (programmer) would cause what? confusion??
|
||
510 Beware of clouds that look like large IBM cards, do not spindle, etc.
|
||
511 ////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\,\,\\\\\,\\\\\\\\\\\\
|
||
512 ######################################## YES, I HATE TO ADMIT IT BUT 'GOD'
|
||
513 SEEMS TO BE JUST LIKE A BIG KAYPRO IN THE SKY. GARBAGE IN! GARBAGE OUT:
|
||
514
|
||
515 ####################C.Y.M.##################################################
|
||
516 ****************************************************************
|
||
517 PAM: Just a point of note, It was Leonard who spoke of monotheism.
|
||
518 However, I do find that I tend to agree with your observations in most cases.
|
||
519 DOM: Carefull about speaking too highly of the scientific community.
|
||
520 Remember they also brought us the engines with wich to wage the wars
|
||
521 you are so adament about. Not to mention the most destructive force
|
||
522 known to man the atomic bomb. These would not have come into being
|
||
523 were it not for the scientists.
|
||
524 Leonard: If what you speak of is self beliefs, and not orginized religion
|
||
525 as the main allowance of war, then I would agree with you. It is the
|
||
526 very strong belief that what you believe is correct is right and that
|
||
527 the enimy is wrong that allows people to fight and kill. In fact, this
|
||
528 must be advanced by the leaders to place the concept in the heads of
|
||
529 those who are fighting. This can cause rather significant sideeffects
|
||
530 as well (such as the imprisionment of the Japanese by the US during WWII
|
||
531 caused by the propaganda against Japanese. However, I don't nessasarily
|
||
532 believe that it is the 'cause' of all wars. Of course at this level you
|
||
533 could get into the argument that greed, power thirst, and teritorial
|
||
534 disputing are appart of the basic beliefs of the individuals involved.
|
||
535 You believe you and the world as you see it exists, and I believe that
|
||
536 me and my world exists. These are a very basic part of us, and will
|
||
537 always be there. This is religion in the stand point that it is a
|
||
538 belief. As is obvious by the messages that have flowed across our
|
||
539 screens, not everyones beliefs of the world matchs everyone elses.
|
||
540 d: No, I have not moved your writings from disk to disk. I have however
|
||
541 at times compressed the disks in order to obtain enough room to add a
|
||
542 comment at the end. This would result in you messages being moved to
|
||
543 another line on the disk. Perhaps this is what confused you?
|
||
544 *********** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 27 SEPT 83 ********* 9:00AM ***********
|
||
545
|
||
546 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
|
||
547 A NEW DISK WITH MORE THAN 70 LINES LEFT ON THIS ONE? MIKEY MUST
|
||
548 HAVE KNOWN IT WOULD FILL UP BEFORE HE ARRIVED HOME FROM WORK.
|
||
549 HMMMM.....A PROOF THAT I EXIST IS A CLASSIC PHILOSOPHICAL
|
||
550 PROBLEM, BUT IT USUALLY COMES DOWN TO THE STATEMENT THAT YOU CAN'T
|
||
551 PROVE ANYTHING UNTIL YOU'VE ESTABLISHED THE POSTULATES THAT CAN BE
|
||
552 USED IN THE PROOF. PROOFS IN PLANE GEOMETRY ALWAYS GO BACK TO A
|
||
553 POSTULATE (SUCH AS "A POINT IS DEFINED AS A POSITION WITHOUT
|
||
554 DIMENSION") THAT IS ACCEPTED WITHOUT ANY PROOF. WHAT POSTULATES
|
||
555 SHALL WE USE FOR THIS PROOF? IF WE HAVE NO POSTULATES, WE CAN HAVE
|
||
556 NO PROOF. WE MUST HAVE SOME PLACE TO BEGIN FROM, CONCEPTS WE AGREE
|
||
557 ON, OR THE PROOF WON'T BE ACCEPTED. A NON-LOGICAL PROOF? A PROOF
|
||
558 BASED UPON LOGIC ISN'T A PROOF, IT'S AN OPINION. THE RULES OF
|
||
559 LOGIC AND ARGUMENT MUST APPLY, OR WE CAN'T ARRIVE AT CONCLUSIONS.
|
||
560 CYM, PERHAPS YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT MY MISUNDERSTANDING YOU. YOU'VE
|
||
561 USED THE TERMS "CAUSE" AND "REASON" AT FIRST, THEN CHANGED TO
|
||
562 "EXCUSE". AS THESE TERMS IMPLY TOTALLY DIFFERENT CONCEPTS, YOU'RE
|
||
563 INTERCHANGING THEM MAY HAVE LEFT ME WITH A INCORRECT IDEA OF WHAT YOU
|
||
564 MEANT. IF YOU MEAN THAT RELIGION QUITE OFTEN IS USED AS AN EXCUSE TO
|
||
565 RALLY PEOPLE FOR A CAUSE NOT RELATED TO THE RELIGION, WE ARE IN
|
||
566 AGREEMENT. IF YOU MEAN THAT RELIGION IS THE PRIMARY CAUSE OF WARS (A
|
||
567 DIFFERENT CONCEPT), WE AREN'T.
|
||
568 MIKEY: OOPS!!
|
||
569 BAD, AS YOU'VE SAID THAT THE RULES OF LOGIC AND ARGUMENT ARE
|
||
570 MADE TO BE BROKEN, I FEEL THAT I MUST STATE THAT I CAN'T ACCEPT AN
|
||
571 ARGUMENT THAT ISN'T BASED UPON THOSE RULES. TO ME, THE MOST
|
||
572 IMPORTANT LOGICAL ERRORS MADE THAT ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE ARE
|
||
573 1) ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY (THE BIBLE SAYS SO); 2) ARGUMENT FROM
|
||
574 IRRELEVANCE (IF MAN WERE SUPPOSED TO FLY HE WOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN
|
||
575 WINGS); 3) ARGUMENT FROM ANECDOTE (MY COUSIN HAS A FRIEND WHO'S
|
||
576 SISTERS TEACHER'S BROTHER SAID...); 4) ARGUMENT FROM INTERNAL
|
||
577 CONVICTION (I HAVE FAITH!!!); AND THE ONE THAT I'VE SEEN MORE OFTEN
|
||
578 THAT I COULD HAVE BELIEVE POSSIBLE, 5) ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL ABUSE
|
||
579 (WHO CARES WHAT YOU SAY, YOU'RE JUST A MORON ANYWAY). THERE ARE
|
||
580 MANY OTHERS (AND I WON'T WASTE SPACE IN THE ATTEMPT TO WRITE THEM ALL
|
||
581 DOWN) BUT THESE ARE THE ONES THAT APPEAR ON BWMS MOST OFTEN. THE OLD
|
||
582 CLICHE OF LAWS MADE TO BE BROKEN IS A FALLACY. I DOUBT THAT ANYONE
|
||
583 EVER MADE A LAW IN ORDER FOR PEOPLE TO BREAK IT.
|
||
584
|
||
585 [][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][][]
|
||
586 Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z?Z?Z/Z/Z?Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/z/Z/Z/Z/
|
||
587 TO EVERYONE :
|
||
588 WOULDN'T IT BE NICE IF EVERYONE SUOGECTED THAT THE MCESD
|
||
589 SET UP A SEPPERATE HP 3000 FOR USE BY THOSE WHO WISH TO
|
||
590 "LEARN" FROM IT..?
|
||
591 /Z/Z/Z/Z?Z/Z/Z?Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/ XENON /Z/Z/Z/Z/
|
||
592 DOM, don't be so hot under the collar; it was artistic, it took effort
|
||
593 AND, someone notice you.
|
||
594 //////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
|
||
595 This is line 596 out of 629 lines, so where is all the talk? This is disk
|
||
596 already! Get going folks!
|