609 lines
40 KiB
Plaintext
609 lines
40 KiB
Plaintext
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Note: The first eight lines of this disk were missing. I don't know
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what happened. Perhaps they got deleted accidently.
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LIST
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FILE ON
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MARGIN IS 80
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STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
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NUMBER OF LINES: 629
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REMOVED: 15 AUG 83
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9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
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10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
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11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
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12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
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13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
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14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
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15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
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16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
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17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
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18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
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19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
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20 use the replace command to replace the line.
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21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
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22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
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23 ========================================
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24
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25 RE: LAST COMMENT ON DRIVE 'B'; I TOTALLY AGREE THAT THE BURDEN OF EDUCATION
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26 SHOULD BE BORNE BY THOSE THAT HAVE CHILDREN IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
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27 I RAISED THREE KIDS AND ALL WERE EDUCATED IN PRIVATE SCHOOLS BOTH ELEMENTARY
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28 THROUGH COLLEGE. I PAID DOUBLE FOR THEIR EDUCATIONS AND FEEL THAT THIS IS
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29 GROSSLTY UNFAIR. I SENT MY CHILDREN TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS BECAUSE I WANTED THEM
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30 TO EXERCISE THEIR MINDS, NOT THEIR BODIES ON SOME SPORTS FIELD. I AM NOT
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31 AGAINST SPORTS PER SE BUT THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS IN THE SCHOOLS. THERE IS
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32 PLENTY OF TIME FOR FUN AND GAMES AFTER SCHOOL. IF SUPERVISION IS NEEDED THEN
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33 IT SHOULD BE VOLUNTARY AND NOT PAID FOR BY THE TAX PAYERS. THE SAME GOES FOR
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34 ALL OTHER EXTRACURICULAR ACTIVITIES. LETS GET BACK TO THE THREE 'R'S.
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35 SIGNED EX-COLLEGE PROF.(PRIVATE SCHOOL)
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36
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37 ****************************************************************************
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38 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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39
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40 I had hoped that we were beyond the time when such selfishness was the primary motivating force. An educated population is in
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41 the best interests of everyone, and benefits all of society. People with no education are a drain on society, and usually cost
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42 the taxpayer more in the long run than educating them would have cost. As the number of families with school age children
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43 decreases, the tax base for the above proposition would steadily decrease. Eventually, we would have a situation where there
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44 simply weren't enough in your select group of taxpayers to support education. So the system fails. Who needs public education
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45 right? After all, all those newly smart poor people are going to do is invent new ways to cheat on welfare, right?
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46
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47 Excuse me. I get a little cynical when I see a group of obviously well off people talk as though being rich was just a common
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48 thing. This is America, guys, remember? It is our DUTY (an outdated word, I know, but some of us still believe in the concept)
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49 to provide an education to EVERYONE!! Not just the priviledged few, or those who can afford it. "Let them eat cake" is simply
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50 not the response they deserve.
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51 It seems that our tax system is structured so that we get to vote on those taxes that those in charge feel we won't turn down.
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52 But, as the schools are generally supported by property taxes, the rich are more and more against schools. They feel
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53 ( justifiably ), that they carry the majority of the burden of supporting public schools. To make them feel better, perhaps we
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54 should support public schools from some other base. How about (do I dare say it?) sales tax? Maybe a tax on paid private
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55 school tuition. If you want your child to go to private school, you must pay taxes equivalent to the cost of sending a child
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56 to public school.
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57 There has to be a solution other than a total abandonment of the school system that has been suggested above. I'm sure
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58 that the well educated customers of this Inn could arrive at better ideas than that ( the baby's wet itself! Kill it!! ).
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59 Madame DeFarge is still with us in spirit, and I'd prefer we didn't get the chance to see her knitting needles.
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60 /Elberich\
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61 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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62 *******************************************************************************************************************************
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63 To Elberich:
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64 You completely miss the point. I am merely stateing that the school system as it stands today is not doing the job that should
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65 be done. I don't mind paying taxes to educate the masses (as you put it) but I do mind paying for fancy stadiums, band uniforms
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66 and all other unessecary non-esential papaphenalia. Spend the money on books, qualified teachers, and class rooms!!! I fail to
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67 see why my tax dollars should go to support the next quarterback for the Jets or the Rams. I also feel that there is no room
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68 for public (ie. Tax dollars) to build or even subsidize public stadiums, coloseums, etc. Let those things be paid for be the
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69 folks that use them.
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70 As long as we have mandatory public education how about keeping it just that and not public entertainment.
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71 You mention that the number of school age persons is declining ergo the tax base. What you and most fail to resalize is that
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72 the fewer the children in the schools, the lower the cost should be. Notice I said "SHOULD" Of course we all know this is not
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73 true as the beauracracy that exists is not about to limit itself while we are able and willing to pay. It's about time we all
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74 demanded an accounting of every administrator, teacher, and board member as to just where our money is being spent. This also
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75 applies to those in any public office from the govenor on down, or up.
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76 *******************************************************************************************************************************
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77 TO: EDUCATION DISCUSSION
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78 RE: THE LAST 350 OR SO LINES
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79
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80 1) PSYCHOLOGISTS SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAVE ANY STRONG INFLUENCE ON SOCIETY
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81 AT ALL, GIVEN THE TRACK RECORD THEY'VE GOT, LET ALONE BE ALLOWED AROUND
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82 CHILDREN. HOWEVER, PSYCHOANALYTIC THEORY MATCHES UP WELL WITH NOTIONS
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83 ABOUT SICKNESS,CRIMINALITY,CLASS STRUCTURE, ETC THAT WE AS A SOCIETY
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84 HOLD QUITE DEAR. THEREFORE WE WILL PROBABLY BE SADDLED WITH THEM UNTILL
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85 GENERALLY ACCEPTED THOUGHT ON THESE AREAS EVOLVES A BIT, NO MATTER HOW
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86 MANY STUDIES CONFIRM THAT PATIENTS UNDERGOING ANALYSIS DERIVE NO BENEFIT
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87 FROM IT.
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88 2) CHILDREN - SOMETIMES VERY LARGE AND WELL ARMED CHILDREN - MISBEHAVING
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89 IN A CLASS CAN MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO TEACH OR LEARN. BRING BACK
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90 CORPORAL PUNISHMENT. (ANY COMMENTS!)
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91 3) SELFISH OR NOT, MOST PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF DON'T WAN'T TO VOTE FUNDS
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92 FOR PROJECTS OF DOUBTFUL VALUE, INCLUDING SCHOOL LEVIES. WE REGARD THIS
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93 IN PART AT LEAST AS A PROTEST AGAINST THE SHORTCOMINGS OF THE SYSTEM -
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94 ALBEIT A CRUDE TOOL AT BEST, THIS PROTEST IS PERHAPS THE ONLY THING
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95 FOUND SO FAR THAT WILL MAKE A BEAUROCRAT OF ANY PERSUASION SIT UP AND
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96 LISTEN TO OTHERS. THE DEBATE WE ARE HAVING HERE NOW OWES SOMETHING TO
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97 THE DEBATE OVER FUNDING.
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98 4) MAKING THOSE WHO CHOSE TO HAVE MORE CHILDREN THAN OTHERS, WHETHER
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99 BECAUSE OF RELIGIOUS BELIEF, TRADITIONS OF A SUBGROUP, PERSONAL
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100 PREFERENCE, OR LACK OF EDUCATION ABOUT CONTRACEPTION, PAY MORE HAS GREAT
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101 APPEAL TO MANY. IN FACT, MANY COUNTRIES NOW HAVE A VARIETY OF MEASURES
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102 LIKE THIS DESIGNED TO PROMOTE ZERO OR LOW POPULATION GROWTH. HOWEVER,
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103 SOME WILL STILL NOT BE ABLE TO PAY, AND THEIR CHILDREN SHOULD OBVIOUSLY
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104 STILL BE EDUCATED. FORTUNATELY, A FAIR METHOD FOR MAKING THOSE WHO HAVE
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105 CHILDREN AND WHO CAN AFFORD A 'CHILD TAX' PAY MORE ALREADY EXISTS.
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106 THAT IS TO ELIMINATE THE DEDUCTION FOR CHILD DEPENDENTS ON THE FEDERAL
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107 INCOME TAX. THOSE WITH LOW INCOMES WILL NOT BE AFFECTED BY THIS AS MUCH
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108 AS THOSE WITH HIGH INCOMES, AND THOSE ON WELFARE, UNEMPLOYMENT, SOCIAL
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109 SECURITY, ETC EVEN LESS OR NOT AT ALL. AT THE SAME TIME THE PEOPLE WITH
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110 ONE, TWO OR NO CHILDREN WILL NOT BE SUBSIDIZING THE OTHERS TO SUCH A GREAT
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111 EXTENT.
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112 5) WHERE ARE THE FEMALE PARTICIPANTS AND YOUNG PARTICIPANTS (UNDER 18)
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113 IN THIS DISCUSSION. EITHER GROUP ON THE AVERAGE HAS MORE PRACTICAL
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114 CONTACT WITH THESE ISSUES THAN ADULT MEN. I KNOW MOST OF THESE MACHINES ARE
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115 OWNED BY MEN, BUT HOW ABOUT HAVING THE REST OF THE FAMILY DIAL UP THIS DEBATE
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116 AND PUT IN THEIR POINT OF VEIW. AND DON'T ASSUME THAT YOU CAN SPEAK FOR
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117 THEM.
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118 6) ARGUMENTS ABOUT PARTICULAR ACTIVITIES AND CLASSES TO BE INCLUDED AT
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119 SCHOOLS HAVE GONE ON SEEMINGLY FOREVER. WHETHER YOU TALK ABOUT ART, SPORTS,
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120 OR SCIENCE, EACH FIELD WILL HAVE SUPPORTERS AND DETRACTORS. SOME PEOPLE
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121 CAN MAKE A GOOD CASE FOR THE IDEA THAT A NOVEL OR AN OUTSTANDING OLYMPIC
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122 ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE IS JUST AS VALUBLE A CONTRIBUTION TO SOCIETY AS
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123 A WHOLE AS IS THE LATEST CHIP-WIDGET. ECONOMICALLY, WE ARE STILL NET
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124 EXPORTERS OF ENTERTAINMENT PRODUCTS. THESE FIELDS EMPLOY MANY MORE
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125 PEOPLE THAN CAN POSSIBLY EVER LEARN TO PROGRAM EEPROM'S - AND REMEMBER
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126 THAT THESE FIELDS EMPLOY PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT NATIVE TALENT'S FROM THOSE
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127 USEFUL IN CURRENT HIGH TECH. NO BLANKET STATEMENT ABOUT THE GENERAL EMPHASIS
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128 OF EDUCATION SHOULD BE MADE WITHOUT A CAREFUL CONSIDERATION OF THE NEEDS
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129 OF DIVERSITY IN SOCIETY.
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130 7) ON THE OTHER HAND, AS A VETERAN OF THE SPUTNICK ERA SCIENCE EDUCATION
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131 THE GOVERNMENT FUNDED WHEN WE WERE STILL WORRIED ABOUT THE RUSSIANS BEING
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132 AHEAD OF US ( AND CONTEMPTUOUS OF JAPANESE PRODUCTS) I CERTAINLY AGREE
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133 THAT SCIENCE EDUCATION HAS TAKEN A NOSEDIVE IN RELATION TO TWENTY YEARS
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134 AGO AND ALSO IN RELATION TO SCIENCE TAUGHT IN MANY OTHER COUNTRIES.
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135 THIS SUPERIORITY OF OTHER NATIONS IN PRIMARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION
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136 IS NOT LIMITED TO SCIENCE, HOWEVER. THEY ALSO ARE AHEAD IN LITERATURE,
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137 LANGUAGES, AND ART EDUCATION. WHAT COUNTRIES? WELL, JAPAN, HONG KONG,
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138 AUSTRALIA, SINGAPORE, SWEDEN, GERMANY,....... SOME THINGS YOU NOTICE
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139 ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES IN STYLE..... THEY HAVE MORE DRILL, MORE HOURS PER DAY
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140 IN CLASS, MORE HOMEWORK, SHORTER SUMMER VACATIONS OR NONE, MORE DISCIPLINE,
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141 HIGHER STANDARDS AND A GREATER VARIETY OF COURSE MATERIAL. FOR INSTANCE,
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142 THEY STILL *REQUIRE* A SECOND LANGUAGE IN MOST COUNTRIES. THE NUMBER
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143 OF STRATEGIES FOR THOUGHT ABOUT ANYTHING ONE THINKS ABOUT CAN BE INCREASED
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144 BY HAVING A SECOND LANGUAGE. THE EXPORT-READINESS OF A NATION IS AFFECTED
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145 ENORMOUSLY BY THE NUMBER OF BI-LINGUALS. (ALAS, I AM NOT ONE, THOUGH I AM
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146 BELATEDLY ATTEMPTING TO BECOME SO, AN EFFORT BETTER UNDERTAKEN AT AN EARLY AGE.
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147 )
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148
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149 WELL, MAYBE SOMEBODY ELSE WOULD LIKE TO GET A WORD IN EDGEWISE BEFORE THE DISK
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150 IS FULL SO UNTILL LATER ON ........VOLUMINOUSLY YOURS, CHUCK
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151 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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152 TO THE ABOVE TWO PERSONS, I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU BOTH IN THAAT THE MONEY SPENT
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153 ON GYMS ETC. COULD BETTER BE SPENT ON COMPUTERS, VOCATIONAL EQUIPMENT, AND LABS.
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154 CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW MANY MICROS A GYM FACILITY WOULD BUY? OR HOW ABOUT YHE NUMBE
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155 OF MECHANICS TOOLS, OR WOOD WORKING MACHINES??
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156 AS TO THE TAX ISSUE, I THINK YOU HAVE THE RIGHT IDEA. TAKE AWAY THE DEDUCTIONS
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157 FOR KIDS AND WE WOULDN'T NEED AS MANY SCHOOLS. IF IT WASN'T FOR THAT DEDUCTION
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158 THERE WOULD BE A HELL OF A LOT MORE THOUGHT BEFORE ANOTHER LIFE WAS CREATED FOR
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159 THE REST OF US TO SUPPORT, AND THAT'S WHAT WE DO IN THE LONG RUN. NEVER BEFORE
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160 HAVE WE NNEED '0' POPULATION GROTH THAN RIGHT NOW.
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161 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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162 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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163 TIt is sad that education is not considered a privilege. Our schools 'must'
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164
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165 off
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166 i do not understnderstatand thiiiss thing gg + + it hasas typingg problems!!!!!!
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167
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168
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169
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170
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171
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172
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173
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174 ...................
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175 May I break in? This empty space seems handy. One arguement for public schools
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176 that is generally neglected <for obvious reasons> is that the public, tax
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177 supported schools have a better record than the average private school.
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178 this is simply because they generally have more money, and are better designed
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179 for the average student. Religious schools have the worst average at scholastic
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180 things, but are meant to teach other things. However, averages mean nothing
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181 when we talk about specific schools. Most public schools are aimed at the
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182 average student, and I expect that none of the users of BWMS are average.
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183 (I know I'm not!) Even so, about 90% of the population is close to average.
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184 The schools in Europe are a poor model: better reputation, but only 1 in 10
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185 can attend; Japan stresses CONFORMITY far more than you would find comfortable.
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186 If we voted on each issue, we would see a lot more things in school disappear.
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187 Most voters are too old to use schools, and don't want to pay for something
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188 they can't use. They forget the strict inverse relation between crime and
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189 education, or the similar relation for need of welfare, etc. ( Or who paid
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190 for their own.) Those who worked to pay tuition may argue this, but their
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191 schooling was paid for by others. Tuition is a small part of the cost usually.
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192 Public schools have failed a lot of people (me, for instance) but are far
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193 better than anything else I have seen. They could and should be better, but
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194 means more money. Perhaps commercial companies, with competition, could do
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195 better. (Bid for the jobs, get paid according to the scores of the students)
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196 The cost would go down, but also I expect the results.
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197 ///////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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221 08/11/83
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222 The Hoodview Amateur Radio Club will hold it's first
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223 Hamfair/Computer Show Aug 27 9-6, Aug 28 9-3 at MT Hood
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224 Community College gym. There will be comerical displays,
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225 food and swap tables (for radio and computer items only).
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226 Admission is $2.00, 12 and under free. Swap tables are
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227 $5.00.For more information contact Bob at 771-xxxx
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228 ***************************************************************
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229 To: Art
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230 From: Bob
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231 -------------------------------------------
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232 It amazes me that people can get on a system like this, free for all comment
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233 and WASTE the space available like the
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234 above 53 LINE blank area. ITS
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235 APPALLING !!!!!!
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236 Paul
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237 ----------------------------------------------------
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238
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239
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240
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241
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242 WHYITISIZE OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, IT MAY NOT BE THE BEST IN THE WORLD BUT IT WORKS.
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243
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244
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245 D A CHS SOPHMORE
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246
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247 THIS IS A STRANGE SYSTEM
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248
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249 ......Paul, you forget one thing, YOU UNDERSTAND HOW BWMS WORKS!!
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250 Somebody else obviously doesn't. Was your usage perfect on your first try?
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251 ////////////////mine wasn't////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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252 I said arithmatic is obsolete. Someone asked what happened when my calculator
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253 broke. If something wipes out all the calculators in this house at the same
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254 time, including the one I wear on my wrist, I doubt that it will matter
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255 whether I can add anyway. "Businesses demand it for a job." True, but not
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256 for itself; a requirement to finish school is a good filter against
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257 incompetants. I agree we need to know simple addition, it's easier than
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258 dragging out the calculator every time we get change, but can you tell which
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259 box of soap is a better buy? It's easy, and doesn't need math, the store puts
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260 a little tag under each box "$.19 per oz". Damn few of us could do that fast
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261 enough to be useful without a calculator, and we are the cream of the crop.
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262 Spend the time on learning what the numbers mean, and how to use calculators
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263 to get them. Learn how to estimate in your head, so you can tell a crazy
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264 answer, but leave the exact figuring to something that does it well.
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265 We live in technological society, it's pretty important we learn to use it
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266 since we have to live with it. No business want you wasting time doing arith
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267 so they supply calcs: time is money. You can also say that much of the rest
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268 of what is taught in school is obsolete, too. They follow, not lead.
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269 ///////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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270 ************************************************************
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271 I would have to agree with BAD in large part about the calculator thing,
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272 sure its nice to know you can do long division in your head, but what's
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273 the point? My calculator can do it a million times faster. It is a simple
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274 matter of efficiency. I am not saying that we should stop teaching math
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275 (heaven forbid) but rather that we take a closer look at just what we are
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276 teaching, and try to more closly adapt it to what the child will need
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277 when they grow up to become a productive part of society. For the same
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278 reason that we don't drive horse drawn carts around any more, we should
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279 not throw the calculator away as being just a worthless new fangled gadget.
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280 ******** CISTOP MIKEY ************* 12 AUG 83 *************************
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281 TO: secret admirer fm: Mikey
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282 Actually, I don't like life cerial, so I thought I'd try working for money
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283 for a change. (Ha Ha)
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284 **************************************************************************:
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285 And finnaly, to the education debaters:
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286 You seem to be speaking that one specific type of education is best.
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287 I.E. the schools must teach people the way I think. Please keep in mind
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288 that there are many different types of people out there who come from
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289 many different backgrounds. There is no one BEST way. Not only that,
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290 there is an actual need to have the varyed methodes of teaching. How
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291 can we have any new ideas fowing if everyone thinks the same? Obviosly
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292 no one does, which makes the whole concept of mass market teaching a
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293 bit rediculous. Also I might point out that some of the most famous
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294 people who many think had an extensive educational background did not
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295 (the degrees and such were either given to them or came at a much later
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296 date). This was usually because they did not 'fit in' to the educational
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297 system of thier time, so they either left volutarily, or were kicked out.
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298 Not that I am saying all famous people started this way, but only that
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299 a 'higher education' does not have to come from the standard school
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300 system to allow a person to expand his life.
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301 ******** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 12 AUG 83 ****************************:
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302 Oh yeah, I would suggest that you not confuse speech patterns, spelling,
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303 and writing ability with intelligence (whatever that is). The more I
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304 study about famous people, and just people I know in general, the more
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305 amazed I am at how rotten thier command of the word is. Also please
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306 keep in mind that books and things have gone through many levels of editing
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307 before you ever see them to clean up the writing. You should see some
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308 of the trash it starts out as. It is the ideas and general tone of the
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309 writing that the editors are looking for (unless of course they are
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310 lazy, in which case the standards go up to include perfect writing as well.)
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311 ***** Ok Ok, I'll quit **** CISTOP MIKEY *****************************:
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312 Mikey, I'm not saying everyone has to take computer classes.
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313 I'm just saying that it would help if they were taught how to
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314 "reason in a logical manner", how to use the language well enough
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315 to communicate CLEARLY and UNAMBIGOUSLY, to read (and LISTEN)
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316 well enough to figure out what other people may be trying to say,
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317 etc. This may be asking too much, BUT it is also the MINIMUM
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318 required to keep things going!
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319 As for BAD's comment about calculators & unit pricing
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320 I've had to compare prices on powdered lemonade & frozen lemonade
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321 (as just ONE example)-- THE UNIT PRICES DIDN'T USE THE SAME UNITS!
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322 I had to figure it myself, and I pity anyone who tries it
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323 without a fair amount of math background. I also pity anyone
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324 who tries it with a calculator. I use an "obsolete" device-
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325 a SLIDE RULE (anybody remember them?). MUCH easier! By the
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326 way, anyone know where I can buy a circular slide rule (preferably
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327 NOT plastic!)?
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328 In any case, there are some minimums that I feel could
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329 be agreed on for most subjects. I agree that we don't need to spend
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330 as much time on math (in the lower grades) as is now spent. But
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331 I still think that we should teach most of what is taught now.
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332 You CAN'T get a proper estimate of what the right answer to a
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333 division problem is (for example) unless you know SOME form of
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334 division. If we start allowing calculators in the classroom,
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335 I suspect that the "best" course might be to ignore story problems
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336 and the like until AFTER the kids get to the stage where we are
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337 letting them use calculators in class, say third grade? Besides,
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338 I haven't seen too many first graders who could hit the keys very
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339 well! Just get the BASIC addition, subtraction, multiplication &
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340 division out of the way and save everything else for later. Once
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341
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342 the kid can do SIMPLE problems on his own I see no reason NOT to
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343 let him (hell, ENCOURAGE him!) to use a calculator. (by simple,
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344 I mean things like 237+185, 375-289, 327*23, 147/63). Fractions,
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345 decimals, etc can come later (I'm not sure about when we should
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346 hit them with negative numbers though!)
|
||
347 If I'd had a calculator, I would have done much better
|
||
348 in my math classes in 4th grade & up. Before then, I wouldn't have
|
||
349 learned anything except button pushing! (for what it is worth, a
|
||
350 friend says this is similar to what he has done with his kid)
|
||
351 Okay, now I've made some suggestions on minimum "education"
|
||
352 and some specific suggestions on math. Would anyone else care
|
||
353 to make some suggestions? (Note: I would prefer counter-suggestions
|
||
354 rather than direct criticism of MY suggestions. In other words-
|
||
355 don't criticize unless you can offer an ALTERNATIVE suggestion)
|
||
356 ___________________________Leonard___________________________
|
||
357 TO LEONARD: YOUR PROPOSALS ON MATH EDUCATION ARE ALL WET. I DON'T CARE HOW MANY
|
||
358 CALCULATORS, COMPUTERS ETC YOU HAVE YOU CAN'T USE THEM WITHOUT AAN EDUCATION IN
|
||
359 MATH. I KNOW FROM FIRST HAND. SURE I CAN BANG AWAY ON A KEYBOARD AND TALK TO YOU
|
||
360 BUT WHEN IT COMES TO UNDERSTANDING ALGORYTHMS, STRINGS, AND SUBSETS ETC. I'M M
|
||
361 LOST BECAUSE I DIDN'T BOTHER TO LEARN MY CALCULUS, ALGEBRA, OR SCIENTIFIC NO
|
||
362 NOTATIONS WHILE I WAS IN SCHOOL. ONLY ENOUGH TO MAKE IT PAST THE NEXT TEST. ONLY
|
||
363 IF I'D KNOWN THEN HOW IMPORTANT THASE THINGS WOULD BE TODAY. OF COURSE BACK THEN
|
||
364 WHO NNNEEDED ALL THAT GARBAGE TO BE AN AUTO MECHANIC, OR A TV REPAIRMAN.
|
||
365 WE DEFINATELY NEED MATH IN THE SCHOOLS AND LOTS MORE OF IT, STARTING AS YOUNG AS
|
||
366 POSSIBLE, GOING ALL THE WAY THROUGH LIFE. THE SAME GOES FOR LANGUAGES, BOTH N
|
||
367 NATIVE AND FOREIGN. I WAS LUCKY IN THAT I WAS INTERESTED IN LANGUAGE AND HAD T
|
||
368 TEACHERS THAT MADE IT INTERESTING FOR ME ENOUGH THAT TO THIS DAY I ENJOY BOTH
|
||
369 THE SPOKEN AND WRITTEN WORD. PITY THAT MY MATH TEACHERS DID NOT INSTILL THAT S
|
||
370 SAME FASCINATION IN N ME FOR NUMBERS. IF THE ACADEMIC TUTORS WOULD SHOW JUST 1/2
|
||
371 THE ENTHUSIASM FOR THEUEIR SUBJECTS THAT THE COACHES DO WITH THE TEAMS WE COULD
|
||
372 HAVE THE BEST EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IN THE UNIVERSE.
|
||
373 =====SO MUCH FROM THE OVER 50'S AGE GROUP
|
||
374 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
375 yea...so much for the over 50's age group. Just because you were foolish
|
||
376 enough not to take an interest in math when you were younger doesn't mean
|
||
377 Leonard's ideas are all wet! So you think you got screwed in math because
|
||
378 you 'only studied enough to get through the next test'. What bull, the blame
|
||
379 for your present condition rests on YOUR shoulders. The old cliche, 'you can
|
||
380 lead a kid to school, but you can't make him learn' is damned true! And like
|
||
381 leonard said, stop cutting down his proposals with insult, if you think you
|
||
382 have a better idea, let's here it. But let's not start criticizing everything
|
||
383 right and left!
|
||
384
|
||
385
|
||
386
|
||
387 ========================================
|
||
388
|
||
389 Then possibly it is the students fault for the condition of our educational
|
||
390 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
||
391 Lines 242-245 provide ELOQUENT evidence of today's public schooling, don't they!
|
||
392 Let's inject a bit more formality of evidence, may we? Please document
|
||
393 claims of studies, results, polls, counts, etc. so that other readers may
|
||
394 evaluate the sources of same for validity and for degree of applicability
|
||
395 to discussion at hand.
|
||
396 Elberich: I'm not rich monetarily: never have I earned more that $40,000
|
||
397 in any tax year; I AM my own one-man company; I am single, never married,
|
||
398 prepared to support my one remaining parent as he lives out his life (in
|
||
399 the same way he supported me as I grew); if I have some financial stability
|
||
400 , it's because I studied HOW to spend and HOW to save to suit my life plan.
|
||
401 I am concerned that the public school students may well be learning not
|
||
402 only how to survive without having to try (Where does the line form to get
|
||
403 my share...gimme, gimme), but simply not acquiring basic factual data
|
||
404 about life and how to use those facts as building blocks for personal
|
||
405 planning and decision making (instead of "Wow, man, like no hassle...if
|
||
406 it feels good, do it at least twice..."). If I felt I AND SOCIETY were
|
||
407 getting our money's worth of educational instruction, I wouldn't seek
|
||
408 an unsettling alternative to the present system.
|
||
409 Chuck: Before you suggest that students know more of the system that we
|
||
410 who have nearly reached middle age, please consider that we have been thru
|
||
411 the ENTIRE system, we have had a chance to evaluate our post-schooling
|
||
412 years in terms of our educational preparedness (as did Leonard), and we
|
||
413 have had more broad life experiences upon which to thoughfully build a
|
||
414 viewpoint. Speaking of aged things, shouldn't we who saw Sputnik and felt
|
||
415 the space-race intensify also lbe guided by some of that "high-tech" era's
|
||
416 sore spots ( which may be called failings by some): New Math has been
|
||
417 widely abandoned by public schools; today's teachers face the proficiency-
|
||
418 testing approach to evaluating their performance because they, earlier, or
|
||
419 the teachers before them allowed illiterate graduates; people here argue
|
||
420 that attention to the details of language, humanities, arts means little
|
||
421 when all around them the costs of being alive are ballooning because of
|
||
422 the actions of thoughtless, untrained, undisciplined fellow-citizens,
|
||
423 whether in the scope of their jobs or during their leisure time.
|
||
424 When I see people here speaking of fear of high-tech and calling for
|
||
425 souped-up teaching, I feel compelled to offer that--
|
||
426 The mind that is full of facts, has learned to observe and evaluate
|
||
427 causal relationships, disciplines its attached body for its own sanctity
|
||
428 and for fairness to others, has developed confidence in its imagination
|
||
429 and its perceptions, and can anticipate the near-future because of all
|
||
430 these things is the well-trained, self-satisfying, socially concious,
|
||
431 enduring intelligence to be envied.
|
||
432 The public school CAN help produce this trained mind, and the exercised
|
||
433 body for it, if that is truly desired by those within the system. What
|
||
434 manner of jolt to attract the attention of those who comprise the system
|
||
435 may be determined financially or politically, but rationally, I hope.
|
||
436 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
||
437 WOULG SOMEONE PLEASE TRANSLATE THE ABOVE VERBOSITY INTO SIMPLE ENGLISH.
|
||
438 //////////////////////////////////////////
|
||
439 ----------------------------------------------
|
||
440 Anyone care to discuss something else? I am having a hard time connecting to this discussion anymore ... I guess mainly
|
||
441 because I've been out if school for a long time, I don't pay property taxes, and I don't have any childern ...
|
||
442 You folks can continue if you wish but I'd like to discuss another topic if anyone would care to.
|
||
443
|
||
444 Paul
|
||
445
|
||
446 ------------------------------------------------
|
||
447 Sorry, Paul, this does affect you. Property taxes aren't nearly the only cost
|
||
448 of education. I get your point, though. Care to suggest one??
|
||
449 To whomever needs a translation of Daves's speech: without an education, you
|
||
450 can't think, if you can't think you can't survive in our world on your own,
|
||
451 and this means we need schools. Somehow it seemed to me to be in proper
|
||
452 American English.
|
||
453
|
||
454 Does anybody out there know of a good photo club? As my schedule changes,
|
||
455 I may have time for one. What pix I have seen in several shows differ too
|
||
456 much from what I'm doing, and I would like to know why.
|
||
457 /////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
|
||
458 -------
|
||
459 -------
|
||
460 What is
|
||
461
|
||
462 -------
|
||
463 ----------------------------------------
|
||
464 Wow! That was weird,
|
||
465 apparently set the margin at 10, I
|
||
466 couldn't get passed the tenth column.
|
||
467 Anyway ... BAD, I originally started the AI discussion, so at the
|
||
468 moment I'Mm a little gun shy as far as
|
||
469 techno-topics is concerned.
|
||
470 I see that you shoot; I've done a little of that also over the
|
||
471 last couple of years ... what do you
|
||
472 like as subjects for your 'graghs?
|
||
473
|
||
474 Paul
|
||
475
|
||
476 -----------------------------------------------
|
||
477 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
478
|
||
479 My, my, things sure move fast on this system as of late. Away for 1 day, and we've covered over 400 lines! Whew!!!!
|
||
480 Paul, I wouldn't worry about tech topics. I enjoyed the discussion immensely, and the only reason the conversation
|
||
481 moved away from AI was that we seemed to have reached a point where we had covered a lot of ground, and arrived at a
|
||
482 place where we weren't going any further. Re: the response to my last comments (or my last diatribe, depending on
|
||
483 your point of view), I have no objections to the points raised in the last comment on the previous disk, but I think
|
||
484 that what I said applied perfectly to the remarks starting at line 25 (to which it was directed). His basic idea was
|
||
485 that (I quote) "the burden of education should be borne by those in public schools." It was also stated that, as his
|
||
486 children attented private schools, he deserved a tax break. I feel that if anyone can afford private schools, they
|
||
487 can afford the taxes. The burden of public schools belongs on all of us, and on each of us according to our ability
|
||
488 to pay. Do our schools need changing? Yes, very much so! Voting on tax-base measure split between classes and
|
||
489 extra-curricular activities? Sounds good. But tax breaks for private schools? I just can't go along with it.
|
||
490 Back to Paul. I can understand your increasing lack of interest. This discussion is now suffering from the
|
||
491 same problem the AI one had, that is, its getting stale. I have no fear of tech subjects, and I always enjoy your
|
||
492 remarks. So the ball is in your court ( uh....excuse the cliche ). Oh, by the way, even if you rent, you pay
|
||
493 property taxes. They're just hidden within your rent. The property owner is a businessman, and isn't going to just
|
||
494 eat the cost of the tax. The same applies to all businesses that own property. We pay the taxes eventually.
|
||
495 Everyone: Keep the controversy going!!! Its great to see!!
|
||
496 /Elberich\
|
||
497 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
498 --------------------------------------------
|
||
499 Elberich:
|
||
500 Yes, you are absolutely correct, I hadn't considered it before
|
||
501 but I see it as being very true about the cost being passed on ...
|
||
502 "If you don't see it, it doesn't happen
|
||
503 " seems to apply.
|
||
504 Care to discuss the ethics envolved in genetic engineering?
|
||
505
|
||
506 Paul
|
||
507
|
||
508 ------------------------------------------------
|
||
509 Unfortunately, elberich, you've made at least two assumptions that you have passed off as facts. "The burden of public
|
||
510 schools belongs on all of us, and on us according to our ability to pay" (a
|
||
511 loose quote.)
|
||
512 First assumption: The burden of public schools belongs on all of us.
|
||
513 This assumes that the majority should be able to force the minority to cooperate
|
||
514 in a venture of the majority. In effect, theft is being advocated here. Theft,
|
||
515 from those who wish to have a private education, to those who for some reason get
|
||
516 a public education. Can you justify this theft? Would you try? I think you
|
||
517 won't even admit it is theft.
|
||
518 Second assumption: "...on us according to our ability to pay."
|
||
519 Unfortunately, the pro-tax people gradually tend to believe that the "progressive"
|
||
520 tax system is the natural way of things, and to do otherwise is unnatural.
|
||
521 Indeed, they have already convinced themselves that to steal money from others is
|
||
522 ok as long as you call it 'taxes.'
|
||
523 I doubt that you will want to get into a serious discussion of the moral
|
||
524 aspects of taxes, since most people of your beliefs get very nervous when their
|
||
525 underlying assumptions are questioned. What, EXACTLY, justifies one person
|
||
526 taking money from another? I dare you to try to answer. Don't try to say
|
||
527 that "Congress says so" or "we voted for it" or "The Supreme Court says it's
|
||
528 ok, since Congress interned the Japanese during WW2, the Supreme court
|
||
529 affirmed it (and the Dred Scott decision, etc), and almost no tax issues
|
||
530 are ever nationally decided anymore.
|
||
531 Let's hear some response. And remember, the burden of proof is on
|
||
532 you, since you are the one who wants to tax me, not the other way around.
|
||
533 (Oh yes, I went to a PUBLIC SCHOOL)
|
||
534 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
|
||
535 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^To "::::::::"
|
||
536 You're quite correct. There is no justification in this world other than self interest (which seems to be what
|
||
537 you're saying). We all must do exactly what most benefits us. And of course, very few tax issues are decided by
|
||
538 vote (I even said that earlier). We only get to vote on those taxes that our government feels we probably won't turn
|
||
539 down. And, as you said, "my kind" (whatever THAT means; human perhaps) doesn't seem to mind money going to help
|
||
540 those who can't help themselves. You seem to be "the type" that would call me a "knee-jerk liberal", assuming that
|
||
541 such sloganeering proved something.
|
||
542 So, friend "::::::", let me put it in terms you can understand (self-interest, that is). A society that won't
|
||
543 provide for the education of ALL of its people will find itself in a situation of increasing class distinction.
|
||
544 An elite, educated class, and and uneducated lower class. The results of this are obvious in countries that have
|
||
545 taken this route. Examine most of South America. The lower class usually reaches a point where they can no longer
|
||
546 tolerate the inequities, and something breaks. Personally, I dispise communism, but it seems to be an easy answer
|
||
547 for desperate people. So, from the point of self-interest, it is in our benefit to continue to have an upwardly
|
||
548 mobile society (which can only be brought about by the opportunity for education) in order for us to maintain our
|
||
549 nice, comfy places. That is, or course, assuming you don't like revolutions.
|
||
550 "The majority should be able to force the minority to cooperate in a venture of the majority." A better
|
||
551 definition of Democracy one could not ask for. Are you telling me that you are against Democracy? What other
|
||
552 options do we have? Would prefer communism? Or a monarchy? How about anarchy? I'm certainly not going to defend
|
||
553 taxes. They are theft, indeed. What else could they be? But its a theft I will live with, and you probably will
|
||
554 too. How else can we continue to support our society? Or pay for more toys for our Generals? If you can agree that
|
||
555 ANY of the uses that our taxes are put to are worthy, then you can't argue against the very concept of taxes. I'm
|
||
556 sure that you don't mind police protection, or nice roads for your car, or any of the benefits those of us with money
|
||
557 get from our taxes. How can you deny someone that can't afford private schools an education?
|
||
558 On a lighter note (?), I think you have got a good subject there, Paul. What are the ethics here? Does the
|
||
559 geneticist have a duty to society? I think that, before a new strain of bacteria or virus is brought into the world,
|
||
560 the ramifications should be studied to death, and then studied again. But we can't object to a new type of corn (for
|
||
561 example) that will grow in the most infertile soil, or that has the ability to fix Nitrogen to help prevent soil
|
||
562 depletion. What would we tell a hungry world? That we found the idea offensive? What would the moral action be?
|
||
563 Good job, Paul!! Looks like we've got a new subject with potential!
|
||
564 /Elberich\
|
||
565
|
||
566 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
567
|
||
568 ON AN EVEN LIGHTER NOTE.....
|
||
569 WHY DID BEETHOVEN SELL ALL OF HIS CHICKENS?
|
||
570 BECAUSE ALL THEY WOULD SAY WAS "BACH....BACH.....BACH....BACH".
|
||
571
|
||
572 ......................................
|
||
573 ================================================================================
|
||
574
|
||
575
|
||
576 HOW DO WE ALL FEEL ABOUT GOVT INTERVENTION IN EDUCATION.......................
|
||
577
|
||
578
|
||
579 READ PG A-12 SAT OREGONIAN UPPER LEFT HAND CORNER......
|
||
580
|
||
581 ARRESTING STUDENTS FOR THE COURSES THEY TAKE & THE COUNTRY THEY ARE FROM......
|
||
582
|
||
583 ANY OPINIONS ?
|
||
584
|
||
585 ================================================================================
|
||
586
|
||
587
|
||
588
|
||
589 For another veiwpoint about taxes; look at a smaller economic unit - the
|
||
590 family. Many of the same economic dynamics apply in the family unit as
|
||
591 the larger state or national unit.
|
||
592 It could easily be argued that the financial support of the family is
|
||
593 parrallel to the tax situation, the only difference is that you know the
|
||
594 people the money is going to!
|
||
595 ========================================================================
|
||
596 For the person who had the guall to change my message on the
|
||
597 previous disk, KEEP YOUR DAMN HANDS OFF THE KEYBOARD!!!!!!!!
|
||
598
|
||
599 TRON
|
||
600 ================================================================================
|
||
601
|
||
602 HEY FOLKS ..... THEY ARE ARRESTING STUDENTS BECAUSE OF THEIR NATIONALITY...
|
||
603
|
||
604 IS THAT FAIR IN OUR DEMOCRACY....
|
||
605
|
||
606 WHAT HAPPENED TO " I MAY NOT AGREE WITH YOUR IDEAS BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO EXPRESS THEM " ?
|
||
607
|
||
608 WHATS NEXT.....
|
||
609
|
||
610 SUBVERSIVE PROGRAMS ?.... PERHAPS THEIR AUTHORS......
|
||
611
|
||
612 I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT EVEN THE SMALLEST INFRINGEMENT ON AN INDIVIDUALS
|
||
613 ABILITY TO STUDY WHAT THEY WISH AS THEY WISH HAS TO BE VIOLATION OF THEIR CIVIL
|
||
614 RIGHTS.......
|
||
615
|
||
616 THEY DIDNT ARREST THE HARVARD STUDENT WHOS TERM PAPER GAVE A STEP BY STEP GUIDE TO MAKING YOUR OWN A-BOMB
|
||
617
|
||
618 THEY GAVE HIM AN "A"........
|
||
619
|
||
620 ( ALTHOUGH THEY DID CLASSIFY THE PAPER )
|
||
621
|
||
622 I PITY HIM NOW IF HE HAD THE MISFORTUNE TO BE A NATIONAL OF A UN-FRIENDLY
|
||
623 COUNTRY .
|
||
624
|
||
625
|
||
626 ================================================================================
|
||
627 Some thoughts...
|
||
628 I don't care what you teach the kids, if you will also teach them Logic...
|
||
629 RATS! OUT OF SPACE! And I was just warming up.... the Phantom Glitch 8/13/83 @ 13:30, see you next disk..
|