615 lines
40 KiB
Plaintext
615 lines
40 KiB
Plaintext
NUMBER OF LINES: 619
|
||
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
|
||
2 ********************** REMOVED 3 APR 83 ****************************
|
||
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
|
||
4 ************************************************************
|
||
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
|
||
6 THIS SYSTEM.
|
||
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
|
||
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
|
||
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
|
||
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
|
||
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
|
||
12 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
|
||
13 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
|
||
14 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
|
||
15 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
|
||
16 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
|
||
17 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
|
||
18 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
|
||
19 use the replace command to replace the line.
|
||
20 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
|
||
21 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
|
||
22 ========================================
|
||
23
|
||
24 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|
||
25 As far as I can tell from what reading I've done regarding ethics
|
||
26 etc. the proper verdict as to whether ethics are relative or
|
||
27 absolute is the infamous Scottish court verdict- "not proven".
|
||
28 Therefore, I suggest that we devote some time (OFF-LINE!) to
|
||
29 finding a way to prove or disprove our viewpoints, instead of
|
||
30 wasting time (and Mike's disk space) arguing with no useful
|
||
31 results.
|
||
32 If anyone is interested, I will dig up some tenative (VERY!)
|
||
33 proposals for a "universally applicable" set of ethical principles.
|
||
34 I might add that most people (and ALL governments as far as I know)
|
||
35 are currently using what is known as the "Neolithic Ethic".
|
||
36 1. You stay in your village and we will stay in ours.
|
||
37 2. If your cattle graze on our lands we will kill you.
|
||
38 3. If we want your fields or village we will kill you and
|
||
39 take them.
|
||
40 4. Anyone who tries to change our ways is a witch and we will
|
||
41 kill them.
|
||
42 (I'm 'qouting' the above from memory so I think there are a few
|
||
43 gaps and errors)
|
||
44 It sure sounds familar doesn't it? If you want to do some research
|
||
45 on the "universal" ethics I mentioned, try checking article indexes
|
||
46 under "Metalaw".
|
||
47
|
||
48 To Moon U. & Val Gal
|
||
49 Sorry about using up more space on a discussion that you aren't
|
||
50 into. Don't let them bug you. You got just as much of a "right"
|
||
51 (whatever THAT means) to dislike the discussion as we have to
|
||
52 have it! Like, you know what I mean, like its cool, ok?
|
||
53 __________________________F - I W______________________________
|
||
54 =================================================================
|
||
55 To SPAM (I think): When someone probes into your half-baked ideas
|
||
56 and hits a nerve, I can see why you would want to load the dice and
|
||
57 guarantee that a certain view of ethics is denied in advance by the
|
||
58 rules.
|
||
59 #1 I understand your statements, probably better than you do.
|
||
60 #2 Good and Bad and other such terms may be "ambiguous" for you
|
||
61 but if you purport to engage in a discussion pursuing truth,
|
||
62 then these are terms that should not be excluded from ethics.
|
||
63 #3 I started my involvement in this discussion with precise
|
||
64 definitions and references to whole families of liturature
|
||
65 where they could be investigated by readers further.
|
||
66 I've used the Encyclopedia of Philosophy for years. I bet my library
|
||
67 of philosophy (and hours logged in its pages) is larger than yours,
|
||
68 I bet they weigh more than yours, my daddy can beat up your daddy, etc.
|
||
69 And as to my energetic lunge for your throat. If people smear the
|
||
70 walls of ethics with their own excrement, then they should at least
|
||
71 have their nose rubbed in it.
|
||
72 But enough...1200 lines is not the place to "fully qualify ones
|
||
73 ethical definitions". I sign off and will go back to using this
|
||
74 system for <= 20 line messages.
|
||
75 In fact, maybe Mike should put a recommendation to that effectat
|
||
76 the start of each side. By the way, Mike, if you're reading this
|
||
77 why does your software on this system put linefeeds before CRs at the
|
||
78 end of lines? I discovered this when I was trying to print-out some
|
||
79 of my priceless contributions to philosophy.
|
||
80 ========================AGORA CADRE============lunch-time--25MAR83======
|
||
81 SO TELL ME AGORA, HOW DO YOU DEFINE "GOOD" AND " BAD" SO THAT THEY
|
||
82 AVOID AMBIGUITY??? EXAMPLE:
|
||
83 "HE WAS A "GOOD" ACTOR,THEREFOR
|
||
84 HE WILL MAKE A "GOOD" PRESIDENT"
|
||
85 THIS STATEMENT, LEFT UNQUALIFIED,IS A FAIR EXAMPLE OF A LOGICAL
|
||
86 POTHOLE ONE MAY FALL INTO WHEN USING VAGUE AND AMBIGUOUS TERMS.
|
||
87 "THE BOY WAS "BAD" IN SCHOOL.
|
||
88 "BAD BOYS SMOKE POT"
|
||
89 -------------------------------
|
||
90 THEREFOR, THE BOY WAS SMOKING POT
|
||
91 THIS OF COURSE IS FALACIOUS, BUT AGAIN A FAIR EXAMPLE OF
|
||
92 A FAULTY ARGUMENT USING POORLY QUALIFIED TERMS.
|
||
93 AND I SEE YOU CANT SEEM TO SHAKE THAT NASTY HABIT OF REVERTING
|
||
94 TO "NAME CALLING" IN YOUR ARGUMENTS. THIS IS "BAD"
|
||
95 THIS YOU SHOULD HAVE LEARNED IN YOUR SOPHOMORE YEAR ETHICS OR
|
||
96 PHILOSOPHY CLASS MY FRIEND , OR WRITING CLASS IF NO WHERE ELSE.
|
||
97 AS FOR DEFACING THE WALLS OF ETHICS WITH FECES, MUST ONE NECESSARILY
|
||
98 AGREE WITH YOU AGORA, BEFORE THERE STATEMENTS ARE SEEN AS VALID???
|
||
99 OR ARE ALL THINKERS WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU "NAZIS", "SHIT THROWERS"
|
||
100 AND "CHILDISH"???? COME ON MAN, YOU SEEM TO HAVE ALOT OF
|
||
101 MEANINGFULL INSIGHTS TO SHARE. WHY WASTE YOUR TIME USING "MUD SLINGING"
|
||
102
|
||
103 TACTICS IN YOUR ARGUMENT??? I BELIEVE PEOPLE CAN DISAGREE, BUT HEATED
|
||
104 EMOTIONALISM HAS NO PLACE IN A FAIR DEBATE!
|
||
105 RESPECTFULLY
|
||
106 SPAM- THE HERITIC
|
||
107 ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
|
||
108 AGORA,
|
||
109 WHAT KIND OF TRUTH ARE YOU PERSUING,LOGICAL OR FACTUAL? IF FACTUAL
|
||
110 TRUTH IS WHAT YOUR AFTER,THEN QUOTE FACTS NOT GENERALITIES ( GOOD
|
||
111 BAD, AFGANISTAN,). IF LOGICAL TRUTH IS THE PERSUIT, THEN ARGUE LOGICALY.
|
||
112 YEAH SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"""
|
||
113 ROYAL
|
||
114 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
|
||
115 EXIT
|
||
116 ABOUT THE LINE FEEDS, DON'T ASK ME.. I JUST PULLED THE SOFTWARE OUT
|
||
117 OF THE JUNK BOX. SO THATS THE WAY IT WAS WRITTEN ORIGINALLY!
|
||
118 ACTUALLY GIVEN THAT I WAS AROUND WHEN THE STUFF WAS WRITTEN AND
|
||
119 KNOWING THE PERSONS WHO WROTE IT ORIGINALLY, I WOULD SAY THAT IT
|
||
120 WAS THE RESULT OF IGNORANT AND OR SLOPPY PROGRAMING. SPECIFICALLY
|
||
121 IF YOU LOOK AT THE DECIMAL VALUES FOR A CARRAGE RETURN AND LINE FEED
|
||
122 YOU WILL FIND THAT THEY ARE 13 AND 11 RESPECTIVELY. SINCE IT SEEMS
|
||
123 EASIER TO WRITE 11 FOLLOWED BY 13 RATHER THEN THE OTHER WAY AROUND
|
||
124 YOU CAN SEE WHY IT ENDED UP THAT WAY. OF COURSE NO THOUGHT WAS GIVEN
|
||
125 AT THE TIME AS TO IF THIS WOULD BE A PROBLEM WHEN RUNNING AGAINST
|
||
126 'REAL' COMPUTERS. IN FACT, IT HAS ALWAYS GIVEN PROBLEMS. AS TO WHY
|
||
127 THEY WERE NOT EQUATED TO LABLES SO THAT IT WOULD BE EASIER TO REMEMBER?
|
||
128 AGAIN ALL I CAN SAY IS DON'T ASK ME, I DIDN'T WRITE IT!
|
||
129 ..... CISTOP MIKEY ... ABSOLVEING ALL RESPONSIBILITY IN THE MATTER .......
|
||
130 ---------------------------------------------------------3/25/83---------
|
||
131 A little bit of information about ONTV:
|
||
132 ONTV uses a "sync-suppressed active video inversion" scrambling
|
||
133 technique. The horizontal sync is suppressed in the video or wrong
|
||
135 direction like the gated pulse type and the video is further scrambled by
|
||
136 randomly switching it from positive to negative. The program audio is on
|
||
137 a 39.335 HZ subcarrier. This is the complicated digital coded type, also
|
||
138 known as SSAVI-1 or SSAVI-2: a digital code is broadcast to enable the
|
||
139 descrambler for a short period of time. This is why you have to pay extra
|
||
140 for premium shows; they can remotely control your descrambling box.
|
||
141 THE COSMIC CONNECTION
|
||
142 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
||
143 Ok, so is there anyone out there building descramblers that can run
|
||
144 with that mess? since it is possible to do the descrambling by
|
||
145 reading the data sent, i would think that it should be possible
|
||
146 to do so. of course the descramblers that ONTV sells are microcontroled
|
||
147 so that they can trip them with a transmitted signal. So all that
|
||
148 is needed is a descrambler that is tripped on all the time.
|
||
149 So, is there anyone out there doing this? and what kind of money are
|
||
150 we talking here?
|
||
151 ........ video freak ..............................................
|
||
152 TO SPAM THE LUNATIC
|
||
153 I THINK YOU ONLY SAY THINGS THAT ONLY SOUND NICE AT FIRST
|
||
154 GLANCE. BUT YOU ARE REALY INSULTING . JUST CAUSE YOU CALL SOMEONE
|
||
155 "MY FRIEND" DONT MEAN YOU CAN SAY HES STUPID TOO. "YOU SHOULD HAVE
|
||
156 LEARNED THIS::::"
|
||
157 BONNIE
|
||
158 LIST
|
||
161 ======================================================================
|
||
162 To Bonnie, you're music to my ears.
|
||
163 To SPAM and other assailants, it was an experiment actually. What's
|
||
164 the matter with a little sparks--ideas are exciting!! exhilerating!!
|
||
165 We're annonomous here. I'm not attacking you personally. I don't know
|
||
166 you personally. I think people should be held personally responsible
|
||
167 for the views they espouse in a public forum. TRUTH is SACRED and
|
||
169 perpetrators of contradictory drivel should be exposed. I have exposed
|
||
170 some of your drivel to be evil, maybe I succeeded in getting you to see
|
||
171 it in a different light. Hell, I even got MOON-U to start sounding
|
||
172 like an intelligible human rather than a broken record. He was denouncing
|
||
173 me, but so what? I didn't feel a thing. Hope he didn't damage his keyboard
|
||
174 though. We hear the shit you passing off day-in and day-out. It's drummed
|
||
175 into us in the government-run schools; the newspapers and libraries are
|
||
176 full of it. It so all pervasive that few question it anymore. It has
|
||
177 the sweet smell of cyanide, as BONNIE pointed out. I can prove to you
|
||
178 that most of the junk you've parroted to us is causing death and terrible
|
||
179 misery in the world RIGHT NOW. It's my earnest hope that you don't
|
||
180 realize that as the person you actually are sitting at your keyboard
|
||
181 somewhere. But if you stand up as MR. X and espouse evil ideas then the
|
||
182 person of MR. X is open to moral scrutiny as well as his ideas. If you
|
||
183 don't understand this, and my jabs do get thru to YOU rather than to SPAM
|
||
184 then perhaps you should rethink why you do hold the views you espouse.
|
||
185 In which case you should send me a fee for helping sort out the tangled
|
||
186 mess of your ideas. But I don't want it. This is a free FREE forum.
|
||
187 I hold precise definitions for my terms. You should too. The
|
||
188 differences (ambiguities) get worked out as discussion progresses.
|
||
189 But I think we've establised inductively that this medium is good for
|
||
190 short exchanges where opinions can joust. But for full qualification
|
||
191 of terms we can only possibly refer to written forms. I come riding
|
||
192 a golden stallion and refer all interested to the works of Ayn Rand
|
||
193 (for Ethics, Epistemology, and Esthetics) and the works of Murry
|
||
194 Rothbard (for Economics, and Politics). What pit do you slither from?
|
||
195 But I see that I'm still using more than 20 lines. MIKE, if you're
|
||
196 reading, are you getting tired of changing disks every day?
|
||
197 =========AGORA CADRE riding into the sunset, never to return===============
|
||
198 ****************************************************************************
|
||
199 Just a reminder:
|
||
200 AMIGO-SUNDAY will be Online
|
||
201 Sunday Mar.27 for 24hrs.
|
||
202 652-xxxx
|
||
203 ************************************************************************
|
||
204 A proposed code of *ETHICS*:
|
||
205
|
||
206 1. Take care of yourself.
|
||
207
|
||
208 2. Always try to leave things a little better for the next guy.
|
||
209
|
||
210 (From an old SF short story.)
|
||
211 the Phantom Glitch
|
||
212 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||3|26|83||||||||||||
|
||
213 Hoofbeats off into the sunset, AGORA? How quaint! 'Bet no one asks for one of
|
||
214 your silver bullets...even at current market price. HUMBUG
|
||
215 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
||
216 Sorry, but this discussion will not just go away. To Agora, if your ethics
|
||
217 must change between "normal life" (whatever that may be) and "death chamber"
|
||
218 situations, it seems to me to be inadequate because the conflicts implied
|
||
219 in the death chamber situations exist in reality, even in our lives. The
|
||
220 same conflicts exist even if they are not deadly, as in the question about
|
||
221 property to build a house.
|
||
222
|
||
223 In the history of science, we can see a trend starting at someone discovering
|
||
224 something, it slowly became accepted by experts, who were then quoted as
|
||
225 authority for it being true, and then finally the so-called scientific
|
||
226 method required all truth being tested by others. In the middle ages the
|
||
227 ancient Greek philosophers were quoted as 'truth', and until it became
|
||
228 accepted that they weren't no real progress was made; the renaissance was
|
||
229 as much the reinvention of asking questions and testing them against truth
|
||
230 as of new invention. I see however, that much of the philosophy spouted
|
||
231 here is still in the middle ages, and merely quoted from authority. I hope
|
||
232 that eventually it will be learned that truth is true, by itself, and it
|
||
233 doesn't matter at all who said it.
|
||
234 A library of quotes doesn't make it any closer to true, either.
|
||
235 It is said that "the exception proves the rule", and in fact we are designed
|
||
236 that way. {Sorry, if you don't know that 'test' means to 'prove wrong', don't
|
||
237 feel ignorant, it's merely obsolete language} We ignore the constant, and
|
||
238 pay attention to the changes. A rule that has exceptions may be adequate,
|
||
239 even if wrong because it is right most of the time, but if you don't
|
||
240 recognize the exception, then you are in trouble. I expect real ethics to
|
||
241 be able to pass this test, that they be universal, or have stated boudaries.
|
||
242 Recognizing that there is pain and suffering in the world is not causing it.
|
||
243 It must be dealt with. Moon U isn't the only one with head in the sand on this
|
||
244 board. The Donner party dealt with the impossible conflict one way, and
|
||
245 some survived, what would you do? Would your ethics survive the choice?
|
||
246 Again: who owns the land when 2 valid deeds cover it? And who decides, and
|
||
247 how? (This should cover the case of conflicting interest, even if you can't
|
||
248 handle the death chamber question.)
|
||
249 AS to the comment about unions being 'larger mobs', I'm afraid that if that
|
||
250 is what is necessary to get what you need, it is a valid method. I also agree
|
||
251 with the earlier comment about their time having past, but not because they
|
||
252 are evil, but oonly because they have been replaced by a bigger mob, who
|
||
253 offers better protection: the US government, and I will stay with the bigger
|
||
254 mob theory of proctetion until something better comes along. I don't think
|
||
255 it will.
|
||
256 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++B.A.D.+++++++3-27-83++0113am+++++++++++
|
||
257 HELLO AGAIN AGORA
|
||
258 THIS TIME I WILL CONTROL MYSELF AND AVOID ATTACKING YOUR ARGUMENT
|
||
259 ON ITS "VALIDITY" IE:GENERALITIES,QUALIFYING EXAMPLES,AND BYPASSED
|
||
260 DEFINITIONS,AND ANSWER YOUR "STRAIGHT FORWARD" QUESTIONS.
|
||
261 YOU ASKED "WHAT SCHOOL OF PHILOSOPHY DO I COME FROM" AND "WHY DO
|
||
262 I BELIEVE WHAT I DO"?? WELL AFTER SPENDING AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF TIME
|
||
263 STUDYING EGOISM ( PHILOSPHICAL AS WELL AS ETHICAL), RELATIVISM,
|
||
264 CONSIQUENTIALIST AND UTTILITARIANISM,METAPHYSICS, EMPIRICISM,
|
||
265 DECART,HUME,BERKLY,RUSSLE,RAND,ETC..................
|
||
266 I HAVE FOUND THE HUMIAN EMPIRICISM MOST CONVINCING, EVEN THOUGH IT
|
||
267 DOES LOGICLY LEAD ONE TO SCEPTICISM. I AM ALSO VERY INTRIGUED BY
|
||
268 BEHAVIORAL PSYCOLOGY AND CULTERAL ANTHROPOLOGY, ESSPECIALY IN AREAS
|
||
269 CONCERNED WITH CROSS CULTERAL IDEAS OF MORALITY AND RELIGION. I CAN
|
||
270 NOT,WILL NOT,ACCEPT THAT ANY "IDEA OF MORALITY AND ETHICS" IS A
|
||
271 NECESSARY, ABSOLUTE TRUTH THAT IS AND MUST REMAIN AS IT IS.
|
||
272 WHICH IS NOT TO SAY I DONT HOLD MY OWN "IDEAS OF MORAL STANDARD",
|
||
273 BUT I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT MINE,OR ANYONE ELSES FO THAT MATTER,
|
||
274 ARE SO PERFECT THAT THEY MUST BE IMPOSED. YOU HAVE PROBABLY NOTICED
|
||
275 BY NOW THAT "EGOISM" IS A CICULAR ARGUMENT. ONE I HAVE CONTINUED TO
|
||
276 EMPLOY (PHILOSOPHICAL NOT ETHICAL). IT SIMPLY IS A PHILOSOPHY THAT
|
||
277 SAYS "PEOPLE ACT OUT OF SELF INTEREST" NOT "SELFISHNESS". SELFISHNESS
|
||
278 IS SOMTHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. COUPLE THIS WITH HUME-IAN EMPIRICISM
|
||
279 ("NO INATE IDEAS, WE LEARN FROM EXPERIANCE") AND YOU HAVE COMMON
|
||
280 SENSE PHILOSOPHY OF BEHAVIORALISM. " WHY BELIEVE THIS WAY" ???
|
||
281 WELL FOR ONE , I WISH CERTAIN FREEDOMSS OF THOUGHT FOR MYSELF.
|
||
282 I WANT THE "RIGHT" TO BELIEVE AS I WISH AN EXPRESS THOSE THOUGHTS
|
||
283 OPENLY. TO DO THIS I MUST REALIZE THAT OTHER PEOPLE AND CULTURES
|
||
284 HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS BECAUSE THEY HAVE DIFFERENT UPBRINGINGS.
|
||
285 THE "RIGHTS" I CLAIM MAY CONFLICT WITH THIERS BASED UPON THIS.
|
||
286 EXAMPLE? IF I WERE LIVING IN AMERICA DURING THE MACARTHY ERA
|
||
287 MY ADHEARING TO "COMMUNIST IDEAS" WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED THREATEN-
|
||
288 ING TO "AMERICAN FREEDOM". THIS MAY NOT HAVE BEEN TRUE BUT STILL
|
||
289 PUNISHABLE. THIS DOESNT MAKE MACARTHY-ISTS "RIGHT" AND COMMUNISTS
|
||
290 "WRONG" BUT THE MACARTHY-ISTS "BELIEVED THEY WERE RIGHT"!!!!
|
||
291 LIVE AND LET LIVE. DONT GET HUNG UP ON KANT-IAN, CARTISIAN, ABSOLUTE
|
||
292 METEPHYSICAL TRUTHS CONCERNING MORALITY. WHEN IN PERSUIT OF THE FACT-
|
||
293 UAL TRUTH WE MUST REMEMBER THAT THEY MAY CHANGE AS THE VARIABLES CHANGE.
|
||
294 ( WATER BOILS 210 DEG. FAR. BUT WILL IT ALWAYS BE ABSOLUTE ??) CON-
|
||
295 DITIONS MAY CHANGE. I LIKE THRASIMICUS:S INTERJETION CONCERNING
|
||
296 "JUSTICE" (PLATO;S "REPUBLIC"). NO "ABSOLUTE MORAL TRUTH".
|
||
297 YOUR IDEAS OF WHAT AN "EVIL IDEA" IS MAY NOT BE THE SAME AS MINE,
|
||
298 OR WHAT IS "EVIL". AGAIN MORAL BEHAVIOR BASED ON ITS UTTILITY.
|
||
299 THAT MEANS "BOTH" OUR INTERESTS MUST BE CONSIDERED.
|
||
300 IF YOU CAN ALLOW THAT MY LIBERALITY IS "EVIL" SIMPLY AT YOUR WORD,
|
||
301 THEN I CAN EQUALY ALLOW THAT YOUR JUDGEMENTALISM IS "EVIL".(SORRY
|
||
302 I JUST COULDN;T HELP BUT POINT OUT THE FLAW).
|
||
303 WHEN IN PERSUIT OF THE LOGICAL TRUTH THAT CAN BE SEEN CLEARLY
|
||
304 BASED ON ITS LOGIC ALONE WITHOUT TURNING TO EXAMPLES IN THE WORLD,
|
||
305 ( CARTISIAN METAPHYSICS) WE END UP IN THE SAME LOGICAL POT-HOLE
|
||
306 DECART DID. WE END UP DENYING OUR EXPERIANCES IN AN ATTEMPT TO
|
||
307 PROVE THAT ABSOLUTE TRUTHS EXIST IN A WORLD THAT WE ARE AWARE OF
|
||
308 ONLY THROUGH OUR SENSES. "NO INATE IDEAS MY FRIENDS". MORALITY IS
|
||
309 SUBJECTIVE. IT IS LEARNED BEHAVIOR. AND THESE ISSUES KEEP BEING
|
||
310 CLOUDED BY LINGUISTIC CONFUSION.
|
||
311 EMMANUAL KAUNT WROTE MUCH MORE ON THE SUBJECT OF A UNIVERSAL
|
||
312 MORAL ETHICAL CODE THAN RAND. ALTHOUGH I DONT AGREE WITH MUCH
|
||
313 OF WHAT HE HAD TO SAY, I DO SUGJEST YOU READ HIS PHILOSOPHY
|
||
314 IF YOU ARE INTRIGUED BY RAND. SUN,27,
|
||
315 SPAM-THE HERITIC
|
||
316
|
||
317 What is truth? What is morality? What is Evil? What is any other concept
|
||
318 that has has been expounded here as being absolute? We look in the
|
||
319 dictionary and find a nice cosy definition (Truth: reality; actual
|
||
320 existence.) and assume that we are right and that anyone that dissagrees
|
||
321 with us is wrong. Yet what is reality but a representation of the world
|
||
322 as we see it? Yes, much of what we see and believe is shared with others
|
||
323 around us, but that does not mean that the guy across the street is evil
|
||
324 or wrong just because he likes something you don't. The world is full
|
||
325 of beliefs of what is considered evil or wrong that others find strange
|
||
326 or rediculous. It is evil to drink it is evil to dance it is evil to
|
||
327 eat thy neighbor it is evil to worship differently then me it is evil to
|
||
328 kill yourself it is evil to take drugs it is evil to have more then one
|
||
329 wife it is evil to have intercourse with one who is not your wife.
|
||
330 Each of these is wrong only if we believe them to be. This dose not meen
|
||
331 that they are not wrong or evil or are, only that they are to the person
|
||
332 who believes so. I may believe it to be wrong for you to be using a
|
||
333 computer and this would be perfectly reasonable for me, yet dose this
|
||
334 make me any different then the man in Africa who believes it is alright
|
||
335 to eat his father when he dies so as to gain his wisdom? We may both find
|
||
336 this to be revolting, but that is simply an extension of our particular
|
||
337 reality as we have created it. Each person is the center of their own
|
||
338 reality as they have made it. There is nothing right or wrong about this,
|
||
339 it simply is. Is this truth? perhaps, in my reality it is, yet in yours
|
||
340 it may not be, and that's reasonable to for that is your reality.
|
||
341 So the next time you state something as being truth of fact keep in mind
|
||
342 that while it may be in your realtiy, it may not be in anothers.
|
||
343 A while back it was stated that to test was to determine if a concept
|
||
344 was wrong, perhaps, but it could as easily be considered as to determine
|
||
345 if something is right. Is it half full or half empty?
|
||
346 .... A FEW THOUGHTS WITH CISTOP MIKEY ...............................
|
||
347 MIKEY
|
||
348 IT MAY BE INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT "RITUAL CANIBALISM" HAS BEEN
|
||
349 NOTED AS VERY PROMINANT BEFORE NEADERTHALINESE ERA.
|
||
350 EUROPEAN CULTERS DID NOT DISCARD THIS BEHAVIOR UNTILL SOMEWHERE
|
||
351 AROUND 20,000 YEARS B.P.,IF NOT LATER. "MANS FIRST PURSUIT OF
|
||
352 DEVINITY"????? I DOUBT IT BUT I JUST THROW THAT IN.
|
||
353 SPAM
|
||
354 ======================================================================
|
||
355 To SPAM, BAD, and other subjectivists. Just because people have different
|
||
356 uses and understandings for terms like GOOD, doesn't mean that as CONCEPTS
|
||
357 (i.e., epistemological tools) they are "subjective in essence". Yes, man
|
||
358 is born tabula rasa--there are no innate concepts. Yes, men go through
|
||
359 processes of enculturation. But, be careful with your statistical
|
||
360 observations when you apply them to man in general or to concepts qua
|
||
361 concepts. There are other, more fundamental facts about man (eg, volition)
|
||
362 and about concepts (eg, valid essence) that your statistical generalization
|
||
363 may contradict. Men were once enculturated to believe that earth was solar
|
||
364 system central. The truth of the matter existed independent of how they
|
||
365 were enculturated. Good men accumulated a body of knowledge and contin-
|
||
366 ually re-examine it to compare it against reality. Truth is the
|
||
367 recognition of reality. Individual men experience truth subjectively.
|
||
368 But reality exists independent of the subjective wishes, whims, prayers,
|
||
369 or concepts of men.
|
||
370 Just as you have a Gas Chamber Ethics, you have a Fog-Bound
|
||
371 Epistemology. You observe that men's desires conflict and then attempt
|
||
372 to model rights as essentially conflicting (against which I will "mud-
|
||
373 sling" till my dying day). You observe that men's opinions conflict
|
||
374 and then attempt to model concepts as "essentially subjective". I ask
|
||
375 the same question I did in ethics: Why must you construct an
|
||
376 epistemological model that quarantees the coexistence of contradictory
|
||
377 concepts, when the goal of epistemology is to codify for man the rules
|
||
378 for discovering and verifying non-contradictory truth? Ask yourself if
|
||
379 maybe it isn't because you like the comfort of a model that blesses the
|
||
380 contradictions you have WITHIN your own ideas. An objective model offers
|
||
381 water for a thirsty world. Maybe you should keep yours to yourself, as
|
||
382 MOON-U suggested.
|
||
383 ========AGORA CADRE (calling from Merlin's cave on a distant mountain)=====
|
||
384 AGORA,
|
||
385 THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR INADVERTANTLY PROVING "MY" POINT FOR ME!
|
||
386 IT SAVES ME SO MUCH TROUBLE. YOUR EXAMPLE OF THE ONCE BELIEVED
|
||
387 "SOLAR SYSTEM CENTRAL UNIVERSE" IS GOOD ARGUMENT.(FOR MY SECOND
|
||
388 PREMISE WICH I REPEAT) "ANY FACTUAL TRUTH COULD BE OTHER THAN IT
|
||
389 IS" CONCLUSION:KEEP AN OPEN MIND. AS FOR RIGHTS,OR INTERESTS AS
|
||
390 I PREFER, CONFLICTING IN A "GAS CHAMBER ETHICAL MODEL" I CAN ONLY
|
||
391 SAY THIS. THE INSTINCT TO SURVIVE IS A VERY STRONG ONE, NOT ONLY
|
||
392 IN MAN,BUT IN EVERY CREATURE. IT IS A STRONGER DRIVE THAN TERITORIALITY,
|
||
393 MOTHER-FATHERHOOD,FOOD AND SHELTER NEEDS, FOR NONE OF THESE HAS ANY
|
||
394 IMPORTANCE IF ONE IS NOT ALIVE TO PROTECT THEM. I MUST ADMIT HERE
|
||
395 THAT ALL THIS DRIBBLE IVE BEEN REPEATING TO YOU HERE ARE EXAMPLES I
|
||
396 HAVE PLAGERIZED FROM ONE , WILLIAM CASEY , PROFESSOR OF PHILOSOPHY,
|
||
397 CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY. IN HIS WORDS " WHY WASTE TIME WITH ARGUMENTS
|
||
398 OVER SECONDARY ISSUES. THE BEST EXAMPLES ARE THOSE THAT TRY THE VERY
|
||
399 FOUNDATION OF AN ARGUMENT". HIS "GAS CHAMBER " MODEL IS SIMPLY THE
|
||
400 LOGICAL EXTREME OF CONFLICTING "RIGHTS". THE "RIGHT TO LIFE" BEING
|
||
401 THE MOST FUNDIMENTAL. RIGHTS WILL CONFLICT IN ANY SYSTEM OF "ABSOLUTE
|
||
402 UNIVERSAL MEASURE OF RIGHTS". SINCE THEY "CAN" CONFLICT, WE ARE
|
||
403 REDUCED TO WEIGHING THE UTTILITY OF OUR DEEDS. DO YOU AGORA,
|
||
404 EXAMINE THE UTTILITY OF YOUR DEEDS BEFORE ACTING? OR DO YOU
|
||
405 SIMPLY HAVE YOUR "UNIVERSAL CODE OF ETHICS" TO JUSTIFY YOUR DEEDS
|
||
406 WITHOUT THOUGHT OF THIER BENIFITS OR REPRICUSSIONS??? UNLESS YOU
|
||
407 ARE A ROBOT THAT IS PROGRAMED TO ALWAYS ACT THE SAME TO EVERY
|
||
408 STIMULIS,OR DO YOU HAVE FREE WILL? YOU EXPRESS A BELIEF IN MY
|
||
409 HAVING FREE WILL TO MAKE DECISIONS WHEN YOU EXPECT I "MAY CHANGE
|
||
410 MY MIND AND BECOME ENLIGHTENED",SO I WILL CONSIDER IT GRANTED THAT
|
||
411 YOU HAVE FREE WILL. THEREFOR I CANT SEE WHY YOU CANT SEE THE FUNDIMENTAL
|
||
412 "TRUTH" THAT OUR CONCEPTS OF MORALITY "COULD BE OTHER THAN THEY ARE".
|
||
413 IT IS WORTHLESS TO PERSUE "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" OUTSIDE OF ITS CONDITIONS
|
||
414 AND VARIABLES. FACTUAL TRUTHS REST ON THIER CONSISTANCYS BUT WHAT IS
|
||
415 "CONSIDERED" AS TRUTH IS DEPENDANT ON ITS BEING PERCIEVED.
|
||
416 "ESSE EST PRECEPI" WHAT IS NOT SEEN IS NOT CONSIDERED OR DEALT WITH.
|
||
417 IF I DONT KNOW ALL THE VARIABLES OR THE ONES THAT MAY CHANGE I
|
||
418 MAY SAY SOMTHING IS "GOOD""MORAL" "RIGHT",BASED ON THE CONSISTANCYS,
|
||
419 BUT I MUST ALLOW THAT I MAY BE WRONG. I SEE WE AGREE ON THE "BLANK SLATE"
|
||
420 CONT,
|
||
421 THEORY.SO WHY THE BEEF WITH THE BERKLEY-IAN EXTENSION AND HUME-IAN
|
||
422 EMPERICISM? (LETS AVOID THE AREA OF"SUBSTANCE,PLEASE). EXTREME HEAT
|
||
423 MODEM TROUBLE SPAM
|
||
424 =======================================================================
|
||
425 To SPAM. No, you're grasping at straws. The solar system example
|
||
427 doesn't illustrate that truth is subjective, perhaps we agree that
|
||
428 our knowledge of truth is contextual and grows. At any stage in the
|
||
429 growth are claims about reality, assertions of truth. Newtonian
|
||
430 physics did not become completely false with the advent of special
|
||
431 relativity. Special relativity simply refined the model with new
|
||
432 knowledge and Newtonian physics was subsumed as a special case of a
|
||
433 more general theory. This is how knowledge grows. F=d(mv)/dt actually
|
||
434 allowed for the mass/energy equivalency. You haven't read Rand to any
|
||
435 substantial degree or you would know what the "beef" with Kant, Berkley,
|
||
436 and Hume is, I simply can't educate you here. Don't reify truth down
|
||
437 to specific instances of it as embodied in a current state of knowledge.
|
||
438 Truth can be discussed (both metaphysically and epistemologically) without
|
||
439 chaining it to some specific level of man's knowledge state or belief
|
||
440 system (as the solar system example illustrates).
|
||
441 To B.A.D. One of the purposes of Ethics is to map for man what
|
||
443 constitutes a "noraml life". Ethics is used to interpret Gas Chamber
|
||
444 situations. It is not founded upon them. Ethics does not "change"
|
||
445 from situation to situation. It subsumes them.
|
||
446 Ethics is not founded on guaranteed-death situations. If you present
|
||
447 the view that it is then your motives come under extreem suspicion, as
|
||
448 I've discussed above. Would you have a piston replaced by a mechanic
|
||
449 who advertised to you a torque-wrench that was GUARANTEED to twist the head
|
||
450 off at least one bolt? You and the other Gas-Chamber advocates are
|
||
451 advertising just such an ethical wrench. But your ethical wrench twists
|
||
452 off the heads of innocent people. You growl when I expose this and when
|
||
453 I damn you for trying to pass it off. It isn't just a car being fixed.
|
||
454 Your ethical wrench shows its application in places like Aushwitz.
|
||
455 "Mud-slinging" is too good for you. If you're beginning to see this, then
|
||
456 get your ethical house in order before inviting us in.
|
||
457 To HUMBUG: The very fact that YOU have addressed me in this present
|
||
458 free market of ideas constitutes YOUR request for a silver bullet. What
|
||
459 annoys you? Pride, dramatic hyperbole, or the fact that someone might be
|
||
460 living a life more joyful than your HUMBUG, humdrum, mediocre one?
|
||
461 Crawl back into the smelly ooz from whence thou came, demon, or you may
|
||
462 be the hapless recipient of a silver bullet. You won't have to pay, and
|
||
463 it will be travelling fast.
|
||
464 ======AGORA CADRE (lightning and thunder on the mountain)================
|
||
465 As the smoke begins to clear, I begin to see a little of the nature of
|
||
466 the argument that is raging here. On the one side we have the forces of
|
||
467 AGORA CADRE who talks of ethics as they apply to day to day living (Should
|
||
468 I kill my neighbor just for the fun of it?) While on the other side we
|
||
469 have the forces of SPAM Inc. speeking of real life dire situations. (Should
|
||
470 I kill my neighbor because he just shot me in the stomach and is about to
|
||
471 pull the trigger again?) Proper ethics (what ever that is) will always
|
||
472 fall apart come a dire situation. Please note that in this case I denote
|
||
473 a dire situation as one in which the life or death of the individual who
|
||
474 is makeing the decision is in the balance. In the case of a non-death
|
||
475 situation the choice will be made with regard to a slightly degraded form
|
||
476 of standard ethical behavoir. In the case where immenent death is at hand
|
||
477 the end end result is that you will do what ever you have to do to save
|
||
478 your own skin and to hell with others. Where there is a multiple life
|
||
479 decision to make things tend to revert to the natural law of survival of
|
||
480 the fitest. Haveing been thru the situation of making that decision,
|
||
481 I can tell you that though it may seem grossly wrong to you the fact of
|
||
482 the matter is you will always try to save your own skin first. It is only
|
||
483 when you are safe or as safe as you can get that you will begin to think
|
||
484 of others even though they be you closest friend or blood kin. I will
|
||
485 help someone else only when I can gain something by it, or not hurt me
|
||
486 because of what I do. Can you truthfully in you heart of hearts say better?
|
||
487 ........... the exwarior ................................................
|
||
489 AGORA: Nope, I didn't ask for a bullet; wrong conclusion. I merely express
|
||
490 ed what relief I felt at the time that this fusillade between masked elite on
|
||
491 such subjects had ended. If only, I had thought, trying to see if any of you
|
||
492 had listened to any of the others of you, your minds were to be focused on
|
||
493 matters that can improve the lives of us and our neighbors right now...things
|
||
494 an intelligent individual can implement to correct wrongs actually, not meta-
|
||
495 physically, done to others within, say, ten miles of your mountain; to inform
|
||
496 others of happy events to be taking place within, say, twenty-minutes' ride of
|
||
497 my house; to share your time and sweat to help another accomplish his small
|
||
498 goal; or to share your love and presence with your parents, even tho' it's not
|
||
499 your style. I apologize if I threw mud in your direction. Use your mind to
|
||
500 help improve the here-and-now workaday reality of Oregon, USA...don't just
|
||
501 tire it out in an electronic shouting match of dubious distinction. HUMBUG
|
||
502 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
||
503 As a parting thought, you might remember the old saying;
|
||
504 "As ye sow so shall ye reap a hundred fold."
|
||
505 ........ The exwarior ....................................
|
||
506 A few thoughts:
|
||
507 "The exception proves the rule" is an example of what Asimov has
|
||
508 called "lost in non-translation". At the time that statement was
|
||
509 originally made "prove" had the meaning we now give "test" (this
|
||
510 meaning stays on in such phrases as "proving ground".
|
||
511 B.A.D.- You mentioned "if that is the only way you can get what
|
||
512 you need". OK fine, but be sure that it IS what you need, not
|
||
513 merely what you WANT. For example: a man with a broken leg WANTS
|
||
514 a shot of painkiller & to be left alone after it. What he NEEDS
|
||
515 is to have the bone set! (in case you weren't aware of it, even
|
||
516 with the local anesthetic they give you getting a bone set HURTS!)
|
||
517
|
||
518 Surivival IS a powerful instinct. So is the sex drive. This does
|
||
519 not mean that we have to follow them blindly. Some people argue
|
||
520 that altruism has survival value too. I'm not sure. (exwarrior,
|
||
521 I have a sneaking hunch that if someone was trying to do me in
|
||
522 I'd do whatever was neccessary to keep myself alive, but I'm not
|
||
523 too sure how I'd feel afterwards)
|
||
524
|
||
525 I think that the few people who have said anything about my
|
||
526 F-IW slogan don't quite understand it, expanded it reads:
|
||
527 Freedom is being able to say I won't!
|
||
528
|
||
529 Finally, two ethical(moral?) concepts that haven't been mentioned
|
||
530 1. Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.
|
||
531 (this is NOT the golden rule!) (ie be cruel to masochists!)
|
||
532 2. Always act in such a way that the maxim of your will can at
|
||
533 the same time always be valid as a principle of general
|
||
534 legislation (Kant).
|
||
535 Translated: Stop and think what would happen if EVERYONE did
|
||
536 what you are considering.
|
||
537 These are the basic principles upon which Metalawis being founded
|
||
538 #2 handles the "death chamber" nicely, in fact it is an unspoken
|
||
539 assumption behind many laws. I think that these two principles
|
||
540 can handle most (if not all) of the moral/ethical "problems"
|
||
541 proposed on this system recently. Any comments?
|
||
542 _____________________________F - I W__________________________
|
||
543 TO ALL WHO RESPONDED TO THE ABOVE
|
||
544 AGGHHH - ARGUMENTS - TO LIVE IN A WORLD WITH CONFLICTING VIEWS FEELINGS ETC.
|
||
545 TOUGH BUT CAN BE DONE
|
||
546 JUST LEAVE ME TO MYSELF I WONT HURT YOU YOU DONT HURT ME
|
||
547
|
||
548
|
||
549
|
||
550
|
||
551 ********************************************************************************
|
||
552 "REMEMBER, UNTIL YOU UNDERSTANDTHAT NOTHING CAN HAPPEN TO YOU,
|
||
553 NOTHING CAN EVER COME TO YOU OR BE KEPT AWAY FROM YOU EXCEPT IN
|
||
554 ACCORDANCE WITH THE STATE OF YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS, YOU DO HAVE THE THE
|
||
555 KEY TO LIFE."
|
||
556 FROM CHAPTER 6 OF "CONSCIOUSNESS, THE KEY TO LIFE" BY SRI DARWIN GROSS.
|
||
557 FOR MORE INFORMATION CALL ECKANKAR 228 xxxx
|
||
558 ********************************************************************************
|
||
559 SPAM -- How can you have done so much reading and spell so poorly? Your
|
||
560 arguments would be much more impressive (and why argue if not to impress
|
||
561 your point of view) if one could read them without so many involuntary
|
||
562 shudders.
|
||
563
|
||
564 A point which has been glossed over is that of NEED. Let's face it -- ethics
|
||
565 is a luxury reserved to those who have had their basic needs met.
|
||
566
|
||
567 A parting thought -- "If the end doesn't justify the means, what does?"
|
||
568 ------------------------------P.D.Q.-------------------------------------
|
||
569 The urge for survival is not supreme - there have been
|
||
570 MANY MANY cases where a person has endangered his own life
|
||
571 (and sometimes lost it) for the sake of another, in many cases
|
||
572 this was done without pondering the consequences or alternatives
|
||
573 before acting.
|
||
574 As to quoting others - If I quote someone else it is because
|
||
575 they can say the things that I want to say better than I can.
|
||
576 Spelling: Just because someone cannot spell the word properly
|
||
577 does not mean that he(or she) cannot think the thought.
|
||
578 -----------------------------------------------Grey Ghost---------
|
||
579 To F - I W
|
||
580 We seem to be lost in a misconception of what is being said.
|
||
581 You keep talking about what is generally considered the 'proper' thing to
|
||
582 do, while others (including me) are talking about what really will
|
||
583 happen. These are going to be different, and always will be. Even as you
|
||
584 stated, you would not know what you would do after the action. I will
|
||
585 tell you this, there are normally two reactions that occur. A: You block
|
||
586 it out of your mind as being wrong. B: You go crazy. Type B happens a lot
|
||
587 more then most think it would and the only way out normally is to somehow
|
||
588 revert to type A.
|
||
589 To Grey Ghost
|
||
590 I have found that most (if not all) who perform that death defying act
|
||
591 you speek of did not consider them selves to be in danger. In fact if
|
||
592 they had considered it to be, they would never have performed the act.
|
||
593 About spelling
|
||
594 While correct spelling is nice, If you are so intent on checking for it
|
||
595 then you have missed the purpose of communications entirly. The words
|
||
596 used to communicate with are unimportant. Only the thoughts they represent
|
||
597 are what matter. If you find you cannot read something and obtain the
|
||
598 information from it because of a few misspellings, then I would suggest
|
||
599 you go take a few courses on conceptual analysis. All forms of the
|
||
600 communication caries information even the misspellings themselves carry
|
||
601 important information about the writter, what he is saying, what he is
|
||
602 thinking, and the very medium thru which he is communicateing.
|
||
603 Besides, people who live in glass houses shouldn'T throw bricks!
|
||
604 ..... the exwarior ........................................................
|
||
605 TO ALL IN RESPONSE TO MY ATROCIOUS SPELLING. ALL I CAN SAY IS THIS.
|
||
606 I DO TAKE SOME TIME, AS MUCH AS IS CONVENIENT FOR 20-30 MINUTES ON
|
||
607 THE BOARD, TO LOOK UP WORDS IM UNSURE OF. I TO NOTICE MISSPELLINGS
|
||
608 BUT IF THE MEANING OF ONES ARGUMENT GETS MUDDLED IN MISSPELLINGS,
|
||
609 I WOULD BE SURE TO ASK QUESTIONS. I AM OPEN TO THE SAME KINDS OF
|
||
610 QUESTIONS. I SAY THIS HONESTLY. SORRY IF IVE LEFT ANYTHING UN-
|
||
611 CLEAR. SPAM-THE HERITIC
|
||
612 I NOW KNOW THAT THE QUARTERS I PUT INTO VIDEO GAMES WHERE WASTED
|
||
613 CHANGE-BACKWATER HAS MORE TO OFFER-PAM----------------------------------
|
||
614 Words are for communication. If you can't understand what was said for the
|
||
615 spelling, it was wasted, if it can be read what difference dose it make?
|
||
616 People will read in things to fit their own ideas anyway. Life may be
|
||
617 the same, a transfer of meaning in the genes, and in this context the
|
||
618 parent lying down her life for the child is not suicide, it is survival.
|
||
619 BD
|
||
|
||
|