569 lines
34 KiB
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569 lines
34 KiB
Plaintext
NUMBER OF LINES: 628
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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
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2 ********************* REMOVED: 28 MAR 83 ***************************
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3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
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4 ************************************************************
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5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
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6 THIS SYSTEM.
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7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
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8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
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9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
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10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
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11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
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12 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
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13 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
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14 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
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15 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
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16 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
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17 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
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18 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
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19 use the replace command to replace the line.
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20 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
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21 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
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22 ========================================
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23
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24 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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25 ASN/DOD TRANSMISSION #1928819281-42 TCP NOTICE #2
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26
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27 NOTE:NATURE OF THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN DETERMINED CLASSIFIED BY THE
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28 DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
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30
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31 CLASSIFIED DOCUMENT
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32 BEGIN TEXT FILE READ
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33
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34 ______________________________________________________________________
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35 <begin transmission>
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49
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51 As of 5/10/83 all personnel for project REDSTAR will report to pentagon
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52 office #2910.
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58 _________________________________________________________________________
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59 <end transmission>
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60
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61 END OF FILE
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62 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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63 For sale: MatheMagic program for Apple II/Apple II+
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64
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65 For more info contact: Arthur Dent
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66 289-xxxx
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67 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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68 //////////////////////////
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69 "Public rights" are NEVER more important than individual rights. Why?
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70 Because "Public rights" DO NOT EXIST. Only Public Power exists, which is
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71 in the same category as the power of a mob to riot and kill. Any right
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72 that I have is because I exist as an individual, and not for any other
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73 reason. I make no claims on others, and I expect the same courtesy.
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74 Government has historically represented theft on a massive scale,
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75 greater than theft in any other form. And the 'vote of the people' fails
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76 to make this right. Majority rule doesn't apply if considered in light
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77 of morality.
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78 And as for moral relativism, I don't claim that there is only
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79 one 'right', but that doesn't mean everyone is right. In fact, from what
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80 I've seen, close to a majority is wrong.
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82 ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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83 rights can not and do not exist. for every "right" I claim I must
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84 find a way to protect it. we say we have "rights" which we either
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85 earn or are granted simpley by being human. well,"rights" can conflict.
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86 when our individual "rights" are not in each others iterest.
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87 say for the sake of argument that we all "do"have rights.
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88 now with this granted, lets consider the "right to live".
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89 assume that five or six people are trapped in a room that is quikly
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90 filling up with poisonous gas. there is only one way out, through a
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91 small opening of shoulders width. NOW THIS EXIT HAS BEEN BLOCKED BY
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92 ONE OF US WHO TRYED TO GET OUT BEFORE WE ALL DIED. WE HAVE SAY TEN
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93 MINUTES OF AIR. what do we do now??? this person has a"right" to
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94 live . the rest of us have a "right" to live. ah,but alas, an evil
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95 demon has made certain that the only way to get the stuck person out
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96 is to KILL him,or let all six perish. NOW, that rights conflict
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97 we are reduced to weighing "consiquenses". kill one and let five
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98 live, or grant him his "right" to live and all perish.
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99 so therefor, rights only exist as long as it is benificial to
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100 all interests involved. we all operate out of egoistic persuit of
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101 self interest. we allow "rights" only to assure our own "rightfull
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102 interests". there is NOT ONE HUMAN ACTION THAT IS CARIED OUT WITHOUT
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103 CONSIDERING WHAT "WE" THINK IS BEST. this leaves us not weighing
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104 "rights" on the basis of "desert", but rather weighing "consique
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108 "cont".............
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109 "consiquences" and actions based on thier "utility".
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110 no "morality" can exist with out "concensus". moality is
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111 only a word that describes actin on the concensus. of the majority.
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112 tell me true. can anyone realy imagine morality and "right thinking"
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113 from anyone without the fear of punishment or reproof for
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114 "immorality"????????????? I SAY NO!!!! moality and values are
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115 subjectivly instilled in us. they are NOT INNATE IDEAS. they
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116 must be instilled through FEAR OF PAIN.
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117 SPAM .. THE HERITIC
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118 ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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119 "cont. again"
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120 I am quite confused as to the meaning of the message preceding mine.
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121 a few unvalidated, broad and general statements are very hard to
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122 dispute or agree with. because they stand unsigned, i can only adress
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123 it with an open-ended comment or two.
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124 firstly, HOW has government"represented theft on a massive scale"????
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125 Examples,regardless of how brief they are,do wonders for the
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126 enterpertation of your ideas.!!
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127 second,HOW is "the majority wrong" and about what.????? MORALITY??
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128 If so then what is "morality"??
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129 Im sure it would be most enjoyable for me to hear more of you
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130 views on this subject of ethics . i dont mean to discount
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131 your statements, but honestly, they could stand to be qualified some.
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132 SPAM...THE HERITIC
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133 ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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134 LIKE TOTALY GROSS ME OUT THE DOOR,
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135 ANYWAYS AS I WAS LIKE SAYING THIS
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136 BOARD HAS BEEN LIKE TOTALY GRODIED TO
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137 THE MAX,I CANT LIKE BELIEVE ALL THE
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138 BORRING STUFF IN THIS SMALL LITTLE
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139 COMMUNITY........G-R-O-S-S-!!!!!!!!
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140 LIKE IM LIKE SO SUPRISED AT HOW MUCH
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141 PEOPLE DONT HAVE ENOUGH LIKE PROBLEMS
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142 WITHOUT LIKE TALKING ABOUT........
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143 TAXES......UNEMPLOYMENT.......STOCKS
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144 &%........& BONDS.......YUK!!!!!!!
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145 LIKE WHAT HAPPEN TO LIKE MY OL PEN
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146 PAL,THE VAL GAL?>????????WRITE BACK
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147 IF YOU CAN,VAL GAL......BE WAITING
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148 ............LIKE TOTALY YOURS ,
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149
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150 MOON.U
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152
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153 =======================================================================
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154 YEA RIGHT, IT'S LIKE MAN LIKKE CAN YOU HANDLE ANYTHING THAT TAKES MORE
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155 INTELLIGENCE THAN LETTING A FART??? OR CAN YOU STAND ANY COMMUNICATION
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156 ACTIVITY THAT REQUIRES MORE INTELLECTUAL EFFORT THAN HOLDING DOWN THE
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157 REPEAT KEY AND FILLING THE SCREEN WITH .......................!!!!!!!!!!!
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158 LIKE GROSS ME OUT TOOOOOTALLLLY,,, LIKE MAX TRASH IN BRAIN, MAN.
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159 ================VAL TOOOOOIIIILET======================================
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160 =======================================================================
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161 Right-on. Someone said above that right and wrong are relative to
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162 society. Then some others reiterated this line. Right and wrong cary
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163 inherent claims of truth about reality. This places them inescapably
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164 into the realm of objective investigation. Whether murder is right or
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165 wrong is not established by vote or society. Ethical Relativism--I wish
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166 I had a nickel for every time someone espoused this insipid piece of
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167 mental poison. I would donate a portion of those nickels to Mike Day.
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168 This Backwater Message System would then have facilities surpassing the
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169 North American Air Defence Command.
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170 Let's talk about a bazaar group of people called the Eyeball-Relativists.
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171 Now what these people do is stick needles into their eyeballs and then
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172 announce to us that the world is a painful, dark, and bloody place filled
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173 with unfortunate men who are doomed to wander about bumping into each other.
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174 Let's talk about another bazaar group of people called the Ethical-
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175 Relativists. Now, what these people do is stick needles into the science
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176 of ethics (i.e., lobotomize it) and then announce to us that the world is
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177 a sinister, and morally dark place, fraught with conflict and filled with
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178 vicious men who seek only to steal and muscle for power.
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179 Like I said before, if you think that ethics is subjective and that
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180 issues of right and wrong must thus be settled by societal force; if you
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181 view your fellow man as inherently evil such that he must be forced to
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182 conform to the "direction" that society deems right, then look first into
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183 your own soul--maybe you're projecting something you know about yourself
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184 onto the rest of us. Are there needles in your eyes? Who put them there?
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185 You are a Nazi trooper. You hold a machine gun and a cigarette dangles
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186 from your mouth. A voluptuous young 23 year old woman is marched naked
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187 before you. She is jewish. Behind her is an open pit ditch awaiting
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188 millions more like her. Your orders are clear. What would you tell her
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189 before you pull the trigger: "Sorry sister, but ethics is relative to
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190 society and a majority voted for Hitler".
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191 RIGHT AND WRONG ARE NOT RELATIVE TO SOCIETY. ETHICS IS NOT SUBJECTIVE.
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192 IF YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE THEN YOU NURTURE WITHIN YOU THE POISON THAT IS
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193 DESTROYING THE WORLD.
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194 =======JOIN THE AGORA CADRE========1712--23MAR83========================
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195 LIKE WHAT IS LIKE HAPPENING TO THIS
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196 LIKE BULLETIN BOARD........LIKE HOW
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197 DID THE LIKE PEOPLE FROM LIKE
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198 BORRING LAND LIKE GET A HOLD OF THIS
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199 SYSTEMS NUMBER??????I MEAN LIKE WHO
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200 WANTS TO READ ABOUT LIKE KILLINGS,AND
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201 BLOODY EYEBALLS......LIKE TOTALY GRODY
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202 TO THE MAX.LIKE SOME PEOPLE LIKE GET
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203 SO LIKE HUNG UP ON SOME LIKE SUBJECTS,
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204 ITS PATHEDIC!!!!!!LIKE TOTALY GAG ME
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205 WITH A LIKE SPOON...BARF OUT,LIKE WHAT
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206 EVER HAPPEN TO THE LIKE GOOD OL'
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207 MESSAGES ON THIS SYSTEM???????
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208
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209 LIKE TOTALY DISCUSTED,
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210
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211 MOON.U
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212 ((W/B))
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213 "VAL GAL"
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214 (SOON)
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215 ???????????????????????????????????????
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220 *****************************************************
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221 Ok, imagine this purely theoretical situation:
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222 A group of people are stranded on an island. There's
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223 plenty of fruit to eat, and the climate is good, so living
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224 isn't a problem. However, everyone gets tired of eating
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225 fruit all the time. It turns out that only one person
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226 knows how to fish well, but he'd rather lie in the sun and
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227 sleep, since thirty minutes of fishing per day keeps him
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228 supplied with fish. So the rest trade shells with him to
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229 get him to fish for them. But eventually, he gets all the
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230 available shells. The group is mad. The fisherman is
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231 rich with shells, and now doesn't even need to gather
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232 fruit (he can trade shells for fruit).
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233 So the others individually sneak up to the
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234 fisherman's stash of shells at night and steal some, so
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235 hey have more to trade. This works for awhile, until the
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236 fisherman realizes what is happening. He then hires
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237 someone to protect his shells when he is asleep.
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238 To the group, the answer is obvious: form a mob, and
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239 take the shells by force. This works, but eventually they
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240 again run out of shells, and have to do it all over again.
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241 But their consciences are bothering them: "It's wrong to
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242 steal, isn't it?" But many of the people want the fish so
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243 badly they ignore such talk. So somebody gets an idea:
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244 "Let's not bother to form mob, let's just say we will
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245 attack unless the fisherman doesn't give us any shells.
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246 We can collect shells regularly each day." So the
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247 fisherman has to give one shell per day to each person on
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248 the island. This wasn't THEFT. This was to be called a
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249 "TAX"!
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250 As time went by, THE PEOPLE became proud of their
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251 CIVILIZATION. It was so fair. Nobody ever got robbed.
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252 Of course, the fisherman complained that he shouldn't have
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253 to pay the TAX. But THE PEOPLE reminded him that his
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254 payments were totally VOLUNTARY. It was the PRICE of
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255 living in a CIVILIZED society. And besides, they had
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256 taken a vote on this tax. The vote was 30 to 1.
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257 Obviously, the majority wanted this tax. And who was this
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258 fisherman to say he could go against DEMOCRACY?
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259 One day, the fisherman stopped paying the TAX. THE
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260 PEOPLE hadn't formed a mob in a long time, and were very
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261 uneasy. They would have to forcibly take the shells away
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262 from the fisherman. But wasn't this THEFT? "What are we
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263 going to do?" The answer wasn't long in coming. "Let's
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264 form a COURT, give it a JURY and a JUDGE, and threaten to
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265 lock the fisherman up in a JAIL if he doesn't pay the
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266 TAX." And certainly this wasn't THEFT. It could be done
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267 in broad daylight, in front of everyone on the island. No
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268 weapons would be present, but if the fisherman became
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269 UNRULY, they would lock him away for CONTEMPT OF COURT.
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270 This was all legal, since they voted on it. Naturally,
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271 the vote was 30-1.
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272 The fisherman was found GUILTY of tax evasion. But
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273 the COURT was lenient, and it didn't lock him up. It only
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274 took away all his shells, and distributed them to the
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275 JUDGE, JURY, and everyone else on the island. (They had
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276 all helped bring the fisherman to justice, and were DULY
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277 COMPENSATED for their trouble.) This was all legal, too,
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278 since they voted on it. Naturally, the vote was 30-1.
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279 And there were some that justified the situation.
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280 "The fish belong to everyone, and no-one should profit
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281 from them." And "We need to defend ourselves from our
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282 ENEMIES." Of course, nobody ever asked the fisherman if
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283 he wanted to be defended. But this was perfectly legal.
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284 That's because they took a vote on it. Naturally, the
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285 vote was 30-1.
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286 But was this whole situation MORAL? Certainly. That's
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287 because they took a vote on it. Naturally, the vote was
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288 30-1.
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289
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290 Does this situation sound familiar?.
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291 *********************************************************
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319 No, I'm afraid it doesn't sound familiar. It might look like sociaty to
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320 a limited mind, but that's about it.
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321 By-the-by, I love your ragged left margin! Did it take long to do?
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322
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323 the Phantom Glitch
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324 #####################################################3#23#83############
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325 CUT THE PHILOSOPHY! LET'S HAVE SOME MORE INSULTING COMMENTS ABOUT THE BYTE SHOP
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326 To the person who claims "Itake nothing from society, I give nothing."
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327 Stop eating food shipped over public roads. Don't wear clothes approved
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328 as safe from cancercausing addatives, and ignore that free competition
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329 will make your phone bill go up.
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330 ==================================================B.A.D===3-24-83===0003 am
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332 LIKE TAXES.....PROFITS,LIKE WHAT HAS LIKE HAPPEN
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333 TO THIS LIKE COMMUNITY,LIKE DONT PEOPLE
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334 LIKE HAVE ENOUGH OF THEIR LIKE OWN
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335 PROBLEMS WITHOUT LIKE HAVING TO HEAR
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336 AND LIKE READ ABOUT LIKE TAXES ?????
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337 I MEAN TODAY,LIKE TAXES ARE WHAT LIKE
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338 PEOPLE ARE LIKE MOSTLY TRYING TO GET
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339 AWAY FROM??????LIKE IM SURE,LIKE IF
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340 YOU DONT KNOW WHAT MORALITY IS THEN
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341 LIKE LOOK IT UP IN THE DICTIONARY!!!!
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342 LIKE BARF ME OUT,TOTALY.......GROSSS!!
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343
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344 STILL DISCUSTED,
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345
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346 MOON U.
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347 ((LATER))
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348 ========================================================================
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349 To the author of the Rich Fisherman Saga I say RIGHT-ON!!! It's an
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350 elegant analogy illustrating the hoax of government.
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351 To MOON-U, why don't you answer someone's earlier question? Why are
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352 you afraid of intellectual activity? Does someone hold your hand when
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353 you need to go potty? When you grow up and possibly have to see babies
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354 burning alive in napalm or simply have to experience the cold sweat of
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355 an IRS tax audit then maybe these "boring" topics will have some
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356 relevance for you. "Getting away" from taxes does'nt consist of just
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357 not talking about them. Whether you like it or not, man, some very
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358 disturbing things are coming down in the world--when your time comes
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359 you'll either be consumed by them or know how to fight them.
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360 To B.A.D., it isn't essentially competition that will raise the phone
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361 bill; it's the simple and direct result of the prior distortion of the
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362 market place caused by the government enforced phone company monopoly.
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363 Your condemnation of competition is like killing the bearer of bad
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364 tidings. If a condition of free competition comes and phone bills do
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365 go up, the competition simply brings us the bad tidings (thru the higher
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366 price) that the market had been coerced beforehand.
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367 ===============AGORA CADRE==============1407--24MAR83==================
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368 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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369
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370 I AM NOT GETTING INVOLVED IN THE ABOVE ARGUMENTS, BUT THE STATEMENT
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371 ABOUT GETTING INVOLVED AND LEARNING HOW TO DEAL WITH YOUR FUTURE IS A
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372 SUPER VALID POINT, LEST YOU BE CONSUMED BY THE CHANGES COMING DOWN IN
|
||
373 THE WORLD AS WE PERCIEVE IT. COMPUTERS ARE A RESONABLE PLACE TO START.
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374 TECHNOLOGY IS A CHAIN REACTION THAT IS GOING TO AFFECT ALL OF PEOPLE
|
||
375 ON THIS PLANET, AND SHOULD BE OBSERVED WITH THE CLEAREST OF ATTENTION
|
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376 BECAUSE YOU ARE AFFECTED IN WAYS BY THIS EVER INCREASING ELECTRONIC
|
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377 TIDAL WAVE THAT IS CHANGING THE WAYS OF MAN.
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378 WHAT THE USERS OF THIS MEDIUM NEED IS VALID SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION
|
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379 TO CONCENTRATE AND FOCUS OTHERWISE UNPRODUCTIVE POLITICAL AND SOCIAL
|
||
380 ENERGY USED HERE TO COMMUNICATE.
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381 JUST ONE PERSON ASKING THE USERS OF THIS BOARD IF THEY WOULD LIKE TO BE
|
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382 INVOLVED IN A PUBLIC INFORMATION POOL CAN AFFECT THE WAY TECHNOLOGY IS
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383 GOING TO AFFECT US. IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK ALL USERS WHAT CONFIGURATION
|
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384 THEY WERE USING ON THIER S-100 BOARDS, AND MADE THIS INFORMATION PUBLIC
|
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385 WE ALL COULD BENIFIT BECAUSE OF THE COMMUNICATION. A COLLECTION OF USER
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||
386 UTILITIES CAN BE A HANDY THING WHEN YOU ARE SETTING UP A SYSTEM FOR THE
|
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387 FIRST TIME. ITEMS OF INFORMATION USUALLY TAKEN FOR GRANTED CAN RELIEVE
|
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388 SOME OF THE STRESS IN GETTING YOUR SYSTEM UP AND RUNNING.
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389 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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390
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391 INSTEAD OF POLITICAL ARGUMENTS, LETS POOL INFORMATION AND BE STRONGER IN
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392 THE PROCESS, AND IN DOING SO WE MOVE CLOSER AS WELL AS STRONGER TO FIGHT
|
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393 OFF THE DEPRESSION OF EVER INCREASING TECHNOLOGY.
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||
394 =====================================================================
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395 To Moon U:
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396 We talk about politics because we know it affects us. Of course it does
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397 you, too, and you might even learn someting about why things are the
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398 way they are by reading some of this. It might even be noticed we don't
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399 really like the subject, but can't ignore it because it just won't go
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400 away. You also might notice something else, it is not a simple subject,
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401 and there are many ways to go, but even if everybody has an idea of which
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402 we want to be, noone really knows how to get there.
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403 To the casual observer, there is more disagreement than there really is,
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404 though, because a lot of the heat is just differences in where to draw
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405 the line.
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406 This is not easy, either, because anything society (or anyone in
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407 society) does affects somebody else. For example, we all agree killing
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408 humans is bad, BUT, is shooting a sniper who is killing people murder?
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409 Is shooting someone who broke iinto your house wrong? If we allow self
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410 defense as a defense, is protecting someone else considered self defense?
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411 A similar situation, where perhaps noone is right, and noone is wrong:
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412 when the north end a a certain town was surveyed, by the CCC, they did
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413 a s!@#$ job. Now you want to build a house there, on your property, but
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414 the people on the left claim they own the left 6 foot strip of your land,
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415 and you can't build a house on their property, and the people on the right
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416 claim the right 6 feet, too, because each piece of property was on a
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417 different survey. Who owns the land? Each person has a fully valid claim,
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418 his deed includes that land. Who is guilty of trying to steal from his
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419 neighbor? Somebody has to lose, because there just isn't as much real
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||
420 estate as there is deeds. who pays for determining? Who decides who gets
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421 what? None of the current owners caused the trouble, but it is a problem.
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422
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423 The question of killing someone to let others escape is not an exercise
|
||
424 if imagination, it happens: A while back a wagon train tried to beat the
|
||
425 coming winter, but near the the pass over the
|
||
426 Rockies got caught in a blizzard. They didn't have enough food to feed
|
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427 everybody, so sharing equally meant they would all starve.
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428 Should we accuse the survivors of murder or praise them for not committing
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429 suicide?
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430 It is much easier to decide right from wrong when we talk about simple
|
||
431 cases like these, than when we include millions of people and call it
|
||
432 national politics, or expand into international. (Even if the issues
|
||
433 are the same.)
|
||
434 As for the claim that there are absolute rights, what do you do when
|
||
435 2 people each have an absolute right to some thing that can't be shared?
|
||
436 {Like enought food to live out the winter.}
|
||
437 The denyal of public rights ignores what "public rights" are:
|
||
438 the accumulated rights of large numbers of individuals.
|
||
439 The story about the island and fisherman is too simple: the truth is
|
||
440 more likely that the fish were needed to survive, and the only fisherman
|
||
441 refused to give any away. Of course after the others put him in jail they
|
||
442 all starved, but everybody felt happy because they were punishing him too.
|
||
443
|
||
444 Stay with the simple, absolute answer: it is a good excuse not to think.
|
||
445 =============================================B.A.D.=============
|
||
446
|
||
447 While my phone bill will indeed go up because of the entrance of compition,
|
||
448 I would have to say that where was that money coming from before?
|
||
449 The answer of course is ATT long lines. I.E. grossly outragous long distance
|
||
450 charges. I'm sorry, but I cannot accept the argument that it is alright
|
||
451 to take from someone else and give it to another because someone else
|
||
452 thinks it should be done. Compitition and the free market are the great
|
||
453 equalizers in the system values. Unfortunately we tend to fight fire with
|
||
454 fire in this world. when the factories started taking too much from the
|
||
455 workers (in the form of poor working conditions and long hours at low pay)
|
||
456 the response was to form a union (I.E. a bigger mob) to force the factories
|
||
457 to do what they wanted. So now the factories are hurting because of excessive
|
||
458 wages and fringes (compared to the rest of the world). Their response is to
|
||
459 ask the government to stongarm the other factories in the world (thru import
|
||
460 duties and quotas). Unfortunately, no one seems to be able to step back and
|
||
461 realize that the basic problem is that each individual was paid the proper
|
||
462 wage and finges and had reasonable working conditions, none of this would be
|
||
463 needed. So what is reasonable you say? I wish I Knew. But one thing is certain,
|
||
464 given a free market place without interference, it would soon find an
|
||
465 equalization point. In the mean time we continue ploding along towards the
|
||
466 ultimate mob rule condition .. WAR ....
|
||
467 ****** an exwarior **********************************************************
|
||
468 TO SPAM the Heretic and recent others who may like the flavor of his Gas
|
||
469 Chamber Ethics. FEAR OF PAIN may be YOUR algorithm for acting morally,
|
||
470 but you're being very presumptious to project that onto man in general.
|
||
471 Since the issue of whether rights can conflict is fundamental in ethics
|
||
472 and since you have chosen an abnormal, guaranteed-death situation upon
|
||
473 which to define rights, we must regard this Gas Chamber as your essential
|
||
474 model of life-on-earth from which your ethics is derived. In light of
|
||
475 this, we can only reject you model as invalid. Not only doesn't it
|
||
476 correctly model the normal productive life of man, it is a death-model.
|
||
477 Neither does it present a situation in which rights conflict. Perhaps
|
||
478 the peoples desires will conflict. But you don't discuss the moral
|
||
479 stature of the people involved. You ASSUME they are automotons whose
|
||
480 only morality is to walk over corpses to reach their goals. What if the
|
||
481 five deeply love the sixth and would sooner die with him than go on living
|
||
482 without him? What if the sixth one rationally realizes the situation and
|
||
483 requests them to kill him so that the rest may escape? No rights are in
|
||
484 conflict in these cases. Possibly no conflicting desires either.
|
||
485 I mentioned above about people who stick needles into their own eyeballs
|
||
486 and then proclaim that man is inherently doomed to wander about bumping
|
||
487 into other men. The particular needle that you have stuck into the heart
|
||
488 of ethics is the death-model you have fabricated. It reminds me of a
|
||
489 crazy person I once heard about who would walk into a room, defecate on
|
||
490 the floor, and then complain to the others present that the room smelled
|
||
491 bad. In effect, you walk into the room of ethics, drop this ethical
|
||
492 model before us, and then assure us that man's rights are inherently
|
||
493 conflicting.
|
||
494 My question is, why must you construct an ethical model that
|
||
495 guarantees death when the goal of ethics is to codify for man the rules
|
||
496 for a rational, healthy, productive life? You say "an EVIL DEMON has
|
||
497 made certain that the only way to get the stuck person out is to KILL
|
||
498 him or let all six perish." I say, If the shoe fits....
|
||
499 A comment on Technology and these political discussions: Technology
|
||
500 is definitly a revolution happening now. Personal computers are
|
||
501 instruments for amplifying our ability think and communicate. This
|
||
502 very message system is an example. I think ideas (and the truth of them)
|
||
503 are crucially important. They are not distant, boring, or irrevalent.
|
||
504 Political ideas cause things to happen in the world. Good ideas (like
|
||
505 personal computers) can cause great joy. Bad ideas can cause untold
|
||
506 misery. Just ask the victims in Afganistan. Unfortunatly, there are
|
||
507 alot of bad ideas floating around. They should be fought passionately
|
||
508 by all of us who care about our fellow man. If you perceive my arguments
|
||
509 as being particularly, even excessively, energetic, I don't appologise.
|
||
510 I would only add that I have witnessed first-hand some of the world's
|
||
511 worst ideas taken to their final extreem of practice. Some of
|
||
512 those ideas have appeared innocuously on this message system. Let's
|
||
513 keep the fire alive--when we pass to the good ideas (eg personal
|
||
514 computing as a liberating instrument) the discussions can stay equally
|
||
515 interesting and not quite as depressing as political issues.
|
||
516 ===============AGORA CADRE===============24MAR83--2104=================
|
||
517 TO AGORA,
|
||
518
|
||
519 DOES SOMEONE HOLD YOUR HAND WHEN
|
||
520 YOU GO POTTY??????HHHMMMMMMMM??????
|
||
521 I DIDNT SAY YOU HAVE TO IGNORE TAXES
|
||
522 AND ALL THAT OTHER STUFF,WHAT IM SAYING
|
||
523 IS.....WHAT CANT YOU JUST KEEP IT TO
|
||
524 YOURSELF??????AND WHAT REALLY GROSSES
|
||
525 ME OUT,IS HOW MUCH ROOM YOU TAKE UP
|
||
526 TO TALK ABOUT IT!!!!!DONT WE HEAR
|
||
527 ENOUGH ABOUT TAXES ON THE NEWS ANYWAY?
|
||
528 AND BESIDES,YOU DONT HAVE TO IGNORE
|
||
529 TAXES,TAXES IS A PART OF LIFE,BUT THAT
|
||
530 DOESNT MEAN WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT
|
||
531 ALL THE TIME,WE CAN JUST LEARN TO
|
||
532 EXCEPT IT AS A PART OF LIFE WITHOUT
|
||
533 HAVING TO MUMMBLE JUMMBLE ABOUT IT
|
||
534 ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!COME BACK TO LIFE!
|
||
535
|
||
536 MOON U.
|
||
537 DONT W/B
|
||
538 ////////////////////////////////////////
|
||
539 DEAREST MOON U.
|
||
540 "PATHETIC" NOT "PATHEDIC"
|
||
541 -
|
||
542 ////////////////////////////////////////
|
||
543
|
||
544 AGORA
|
||
545 IN RESPONSE TO YOUR MOST ZEALOUS AND ENERGETIC FEED-BACK
|
||
546 THANK YOU. I DO FEEL THOUGH THAT MY MAIN POINT WAS OVER-LOOKED.
|
||
547 THE MAIN POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE WAS THIS.THE "IDEAS" OF
|
||
549 "RIGHT AND WRONG", "GOOD AND BAD", OR "MORALITY AND JUSTICE"
|
||
550 OVERALL ARE NOT UNIVERSALY PERCIEVED, NOR PRACTICED, THE SAME
|
||
551 BY EVERY INDIVIDUAL IN THE WORLD. THEREFOR, THESE CONCEPTS
|
||
552 ARE, AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE, SUBJECTIVE IN ESSENCE.
|
||
553 IN OTHER WORDS, OUR "IDEAS" OF MORALITY ARE NOT SIMPLY "GRANTED",
|
||
554 BUT "LEARNED". THROUGH AN ON-GOING PROCESS OF "ACTION , THEN REWARD",
|
||
555 OR , "ACTION, THEN PUNISHMENT", WE DEVELOP OUR "SOCIETAL , MODAL PERSON-
|
||
556 ALITIES". THIS MEANS LEARNING WHAT ARE SOCIALY ACCEPTABLE NORMS OF
|
||
557 BEHAVIOR IN ANY GIVEN AREA OF HUMAN INTERACTION, WITHIN OUR OWN CULTURE.
|
||
558 IE: THE WAYS WE DRESS, HOW OFTEN WE BATHE, WHERE ITS PROPER TO SHIT,
|
||
559 IDEAS OF PRIVATE PROPERTY, AND EVEN CONCEPTS OF "HUMAN RIGHTS".
|
||
560 WICH ONES WE ACCEPT AND ACT ON , AND WICH ONES WE REJECT , DEPENDS VERY
|
||
561 HEVILY ON OUR "ENCULTURATION", ( THE WAY WE ARE NURTURED INTO SOCIETY).
|
||
562 ALL THESE IDEAS ARE LEARNED, ACCEPTED OR REJECTED, PONDERED AND SHADED
|
||
563 BY OUR OWN VIEW-POINT, AND THEN ACTED APON IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.
|
||
564 AS FOR MY POORLY WORDED PARADIGM CASE, YOU ARE SO RIGHT. I SHOULD HAVE
|
||
565 COSIDERED ALL THE POSSIBLE "LOGICAL LOOP-HOLES" BEFORE MAKING SUCH
|
||
566 BOLD A CONCLUSION. "YOU GOT ME"
|
||
567 BUT.....................................
|
||
568 I ALSO STATED, ADAMANTLY AS I RECALL, THAT THE PERPETUATION OF THE IDEAS
|
||
569 OF "RIGHTS" WERE " EGOISTIC " IN NATURE. THEY ARE SUBJECTIVE AND
|
||
570 CONTINGIANT APON WHETHER OR NOT WE HAVE AN INTEREST AT STAKE. ALSO
|
||
571 I BELIEVE YOU YOURSELF DID GRANT ME THE FACT THAT THEY CAN AND DO
|
||
572 CONFLICT, GIVEN THE RIGHT CUIRCUMSTANCES. FOR EXAMPLE, I MAY PUT
|
||
573 MYSELF IN THE POSITION OF THE MAN "WHO IS STUCK IN THE HOLE AND
|
||
574 JEOPARDIZING THE WELFARE OF MY COMMMRADS". ALSO,I PERSONALY WILL
|
||
575 TAKE ON THE ROLE OF THE ONE "WILLING TO SACRAFICE MY OWN LIFE, OUT OF
|
||
576 LOVE AND CONCERN, SO THAT THEY MAY LIVE". BUT WAIT ... EVEN AMIDST
|
||
577 MY SELFLESS SHOWERING OF BENEVOLENCE, GLEEN THROUGH A MEASURABLE
|
||
578 AMOUNT OF INESCAPABLE "EGOISM" AND "UTILITARIANISM".
|
||
579 "I" BELIEVE THAT IT IS WITHIN "MY" INTEREST TO DISREGARD "MY" RIGHTS
|
||
580 FOR THE SAKE OF SOMTHING "I" LOVE. MY FRIENDS. AND....,SEEING THIER
|
||
581 PLIGHT, "I" ACKNOWLEDGE THE UTILITY OF "MY" ACTIONS. FOR IT IS
|
||
582 CLEAR TO ANY THINKING PERSON, SURLY, THAT NO DECISION CAN BE
|
||
583 MADE , BY ME OR ANYONE ELSE, ////////
|
||
584 UNTILL THE FACTS HAVE BEEN WIEGHED. SO IN EFFECT I AM AGAIN CONSIDERING
|
||
585 "WHATS IN IT FOR ME" (THE LIVES OF MY BELOVED FRIENDS) , AN THE UTILITY
|
||
586 OF MY ACTIONS ( WHAT GOOD WILL COME OF THIS).
|
||
587 MORE SIMPLY, THE COGITATION OF THE FACTS DEMANDS A CONCLUSION ON MY PART
|
||
588 WHICH LEADS TO INTROSPECTION AND ( ALAS ) "EGOISM".
|
||
589 IF YOU ARE THUS FAR FINDING DIFFICULTY WITH MY DEFINITIONS, IT MIGHT
|
||
590 BE HELPFULL FOR YOU TO GO TO YOUR LOCAL LIBRARY AND SPEND SOME TIME
|
||
591 READING THE "ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PHILOSOPHY". IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN MOST
|
||
592 HELPFULL TO ME IN TIMES OF MENTAL MIDGETRY.!!
|
||
593
|
||
594 AND TO RESTATE MY FIRST THESUS, "THERE ARE NO INNATE IDEAS"!!!!!!!!!!
|
||
595 WE CAN ONLY LEARN THROUGH EXPERIENCE. THIS INCLUDES OUR "IDEAS"
|
||
596 OF JUSTICE , MORALITY, AND HUMAN RIGHTS. OH YEAH, I ALMOST FORGOT.
|
||
597 DO NOT CONFUSE "EMPICISM" WITH CULTURAL OR ETHICAL "RELTIVISM".!!!
|
||
602 RESPECTFULLY
|
||
603 ALSO DO NOT CONFUSE "CONSEQUENTIALIST UTILITARIANISM" WITH ANY FORM
|
||
604 OF RELATIVISM. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.
|
||
605 ALSO... ABOUT THIS I AM MOST ADAMANT!!! IT IS USUALY COMMON COURTESY
|
||
606 WHEN REFUTING AN ARGUMENT BE IT POLITICAL, PHILOSOPHICAL, OR
|
||
607 MERE OPINION,TO ADHERE TO CERTAIN GUIDLINES OF ARGUMENT.!!!
|
||
608 TO DO ANY LESS ACOMPLISHES LITLE, ASIDE FROM PROVING YOUR IGNORANCE
|
||
609 TO THE READER. SO FOR FUTURE REFFERANCE I WILL DO YOU THE FAVOR
|
||
610 OF LISTING THE MOST FUNDIMENTAL OF THESE RULES.
|
||
611 #1. ATTACK ONLY SPECIFIC STATMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE, NOT YOUR
|
||
612 OWN ASSUMPTIONS OF WHAT THEY MEAN. IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND A STATEMENT,
|
||
613 SAY SO!
|
||
614 #2 AVOID VAGUE AND AMBIGUOUS TERMS SUCH AS: GOOD:BAD: NICE: PRETTY:ETC
|
||
615 ESPECIALY IN CONECTION WITH CONCEPTUAL IDEAS. LEFT UNQUALIFIED IN A
|
||
616 STATEMENT THESE TERMS ARE WAY TO GENERAL TO SUPLY ANYTHING BUT A
|
||
617 SUBJECTIVE ENTERPERTATION. YOU SAID "BAD IDEAS ( WHAT EVER THE
|
||
618 HELL THAT IS) CAUSE MISERY" AND THEN POINT TO "AFGHANASTAN FOR
|
||
619 EXAMPLE" SO WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "BAD" IN CONECTION WITH "IDEAS"
|
||
620 AND WHAT ABOUT "AFGHANASTAN" SPECIFICLY HOW DOES "THIS PLACE FOR
|
||
621 EXAMPLE" INTER-RELATE WITH "BAD"????????
|
||
622
|
||
623 #3 QUALIFY YOUR TERMS!!! YOU MADE A SOME-WHAT MEAGER ATTEMPT AT THIS
|
||
624 WHEN YOU RELATED "GOOD IDEAS" WITH SOME MEANINGLESS STATEMENT ABOUT
|
||
625 PERSONAL COMPUTERS; IF YOU REALY BELIEVE THE ONLY "GOOD" IDEA
|
||
626 (VAGUE TERM) IS A "PERSONAL COMPUTER". BUT I DOUBT IT. DEFINE VAGUE
|
||
627 TERMS TO AVOID MAKING YOURSELF LOOK LIKE A SENILE IDIOT!!
|
||
628
|
||
|
||
|