textfiles/messages/ALTERREALITY/ar30.txt

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: MAX                 
Subject: censorship     
Date & Time: 07/23/90 17:39:19
Message Number  6701

M> Nope, I never deleted any of your messages.
  
Manifest bullshit.  Oh, wait, I seem to recall that you had a hard
disk error...or should I say "hard disk error"....  I'm sorry, but 
I believe that only one or two people ever got to read that message.
It was erased, *somehow*.  I wish I could remember what it was about.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/23/90 17:45:41
Message Number  6702

JB>I PLAY rock-n-roll and Van Halen and has been known to follow Def
JB>Leppard from my amp (much to the chagrin of the neibors!).
  
The neigbors?  
  
I never was really into Christian rock, to tell you the truth, but
I *do* enjoy Van Valen (and Van Hagar) and Def Leppard.  I play 
a little, too (mostly acoustic guitar). As you know, can't really play
a great deal of Def Leppard too well on accoustic, so I go for the older
stuff, America, Bread, Boston, Pink Floyd, Led Zepplin.  I have an 
electric, tho, and I aspire to actually learn how to use it properly.
  
  
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/23/90 17:57:39
Message Number  6703

JB>...then you can carry your ass back where you came from (tho I doubt
JB>they'd want you). 
  
My, my, getting a little nasy aren't we?   Look, I don't feel like 
a pissing contest about who's smarter...I was trying to defend the 
...well, I was trying to stick up for someone, and I stuck up my foot
in my mouth.  I got nuthin against y'all.  
  
  As a matter of fact, when I first went in the Army, (1983) I was 
sent to Fort Jackson, SC...and the slow twang of a southern accent 
drove me up the wall.  (At the time, I had absolutely NO accent...other
than I spoke a little rapidly.)  But as time went on, I spent more time
around people (there's a good cross section of the country in the 
Army) and got used to the southern accent.  Now that I've been living 
down here for about three years now, I have gotten used to it (my girl
friend is from Pasco...and indication?) and to tell you the truth, the
thing that irritates me now is a NY accent.  
  
  "Hey, Frankie...y'know whatta fuckin mean?"  
  
  I also realize that just because you may be book smart doesn't mean
anything unless you have some common sense to go along with it. 
Obviously your "hillbilly" friends have both.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:07:23
Message Number  6704

Yes, I object to the word worship.  I don't like the idea of it.
Tell you what, you tell me what you think it means, and I'll tell you 
what I think it implies.
  God promises eternal life for the simple act of acknowledgeing His
diety and acceptin His terms (oh wow- really tough stuf here - do unto
others...)  What really is your complaint?
  Because that isn't all.  The bible is filled with things you must 
comply with and obey.  Whether these things are better for me or not 
is irrelavant.  I don't feel like doing them. He's not going to send 
he police after me, just damn me to eternal hell.  Well, I ask you,
what choice do I have?  THAT is what bothers me.  We are supposed to 
be creatures of free will and be able to make our own choice...
SOME FUCKING CHOICE!  Worship me or go to hell, but it's your decision.
Thanks a hell of a lot.  Turtle had a good point in his message. I 
agree 150%.  If you read it, you'll understand.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Gun Control    
Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:20:56
Message Number  6705

How do you mean, non-sequitur?  My facts were in perfect order.  
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:22:04
Message Number  6706

WHat is the legal limit?  Is it 16 or 18?  I go by the law on this one.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really translit
Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:27:03
Message Number  6707

JB>Ever see a poster called "The Last Great Act of Defiance"?
 
Yes, it was a mouse about to be snagged (presumably for dinner) by 
a bird of prey.  The mouse was flipping the finger at the bird.  A 
most admirable attitude.  
  
"For those of us who are about to die, we salute you."
  
Your point, please.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Algorithms     
Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:35:23
Message Number  6708

"You're rich!!!"
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject:               
Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:38:44
Message Number  6709

T>You know, if we keep agreeing...people are going to get the wrong idea
  
Don't worry.  We can continue to disagree about Homos.  You will never
change your stance, and I am going to continue bashing them...hopefully.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:40:53
Message Number  6710

  Yeah.  Well, I'm sure that those same guys would be repulsed if the
women homos in question weren't the images they would like to see.  I 
have seen some porno flicks (horrors!)  where there was some of that 
action, and the women were not the usual run of the mill butches who
usually take up homosexuality.  Those guys have an idealistic view of
things...they oughta take a look at whats going on, not how the women
look.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:45:53
Message Number  6711

I like the way you put that.  You are giving totally unrealistic and
improbable scenarios and trying to make your point in that fashion. 
While it seems unlikely that the entire world will shift in that 
direction, (deciding homosexuality is normal) it is admittedly possible
that if enough people considered it normal, than it could also become
moral.  (Not to me.)  The way this could be accomplished is that the
"herd" could impose it's Moral Majority viewpoint on the Moral Minority.
(As we've seen happen many times before (ie bumper stickers).)  nd
And I like the way you called sexual preference trivial and compared it
to eating eggplant (which I like deep-fried eggplant, by the way).  
Sexual preference is trivial.  So is my opinion.  So is everybody elses.
When thier opinions all are the same, they can influence other people.
Enough people opinions can dictate to the crowd, politically, and 
socially.   What is morally right is a matter of public opinion.  If
public opinion said Homosexuality was ok, then it would no longer be
considered immoral (by mass opinion)...even though individual opinion
might say it is.  Like mine.  WHat is perverse...same logic.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: HD             
Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:58:01
Message Number  6712

Well, if you can get the Controller and Hard drive to me, I'll see what
I can do.  I
would be glad to help!
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: ALL                 
Subject: The Pub...     
Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:11:37
Message Number  6713

Why isn't anyone posting in the Ranean Tales?  Thrud, you're due...
Rufus, Turtle asked you a question...it's been over 150 messages since
anyone posted there!  And what are Xon and Wezip talking about?
I want to post, but I'd be talking to myself!  (I hate interupting.)
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:20:37
Message Number  6714

> whatever happened to getting a job...
 
  They won't hire me until I'm 16, which is five months away... can't 
say that I didn't try.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: expotech       
Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:28:06
Message Number  6715

> ...return issue three...
 
 I think you also have one of my Star Trek TNG tapes...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: ANGEL               
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:42:52
Message Number  6716

Now now - that negates Turtles' assertion that Hell (Hades - home of
the damned souls) wasn't mentioned.  BTW - you know a feller that 
goes by the name Geden??  He mentioned that he might know you in 
conjunction with a person named John and a defunct Electronics business.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: BEATLE              
Subject: Captain America
Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:47:04
Message Number  6717

I thought that Captain America was supposed to come out - did I sleep
through it?  Was I time warped around it?  Was that a parallel dimension
that I was visiting?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Censorship     
Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:50:31
Message Number  6718

Well, can I rest MY case that I am not the only like minded Christian
around - <smug look>.  We aren't all ogres, assholes and vindictive
slavering idiots.  Bottom line is that nowhere is it stated that what
YOU believe affects my destiny.  I am bound to discuss and be an active
proponent of Christianity by the very nature.  I am not however, its'
Grand Inquisitor or its' Right Arm of Judgement.  Shalom.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MAX                 
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:56:34
Message Number  6719

Well you're in good company - he mdical profession and the shrinks
aren't sure either. As far as homosexual behavior being deviant - it
actually IS if you look at it from the viewpoint of propagation of
the species - obviously a tough proposition at best.  It is also
calssified as aberrant behavior by shrinks by the simple virtue the
majority of homo sapiens have heterosexual relationships.  The
connotations that we must avoid are the ones that classify these
people as less than human or otherwise undesirable.  They have every
bit as much to offer society as anyone else and indeed may have a 
unique perspective to offer us all.  Different ain't necessarily bad!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: BOB ARDREN          
Subject: Age            
Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:06:41
Message Number  6720

??? What brought THAT up?  Have we mentioned age?  I * would * in fact
have to agree that I am bound by the same laws of entropy that YOU
are.  I do admit to kicking and screaming a bit as it proceeds but 
again - what brought it up?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Calling...     
Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:11:03
Message Number  6721

Warms my heart to know that it did some good!  You don't know how tuff
it was to get rid of those issues of Nibble...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:12:11
Message Number  6722

Hey - I personally have started many a couch potato on its' way to fame
and fortune - really!  I seem to brim with ideas.  Do up some flyers
that you do errands for older citizens - even stuff like read.  I 
know of several young people that have taken this advice and made 
quite a bit of money being a "gopher" and/or a companion to elderly.
Volunteer work never hurt anyone either and they are more than happy
to arrange a ride.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Stuff          
Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:15:14
Message Number  6723

I dunno about hyperactive!  He walked out the bar with barely an
intent glimmering behind the famous .75 cal blaster and immediately
returned to a slothful position at the bar meditating on a mead.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Algorithms     
Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:17:25
Message Number  6724

Have you ever read "The Devil & Billy Markham" by Shel SilverStein
written as a series in PlayBoy?  A more truly irreverent piece has
never to my knowledge been written.  He would say that harp playing
gets boring quick and I would have to agree.  I have my own theories.
It is surpriseing the number of Christians that have never given a 
thought to activities in the afterlife.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:20:59
Message Number  6725

Should I worry about gravitational pull, mass of object, velocity
of throw and figure whether it EVER comes back (escape velocity) or
should I assume a wimpy throw not worthy of manly concern?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Society & You  
Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:23:06
Message Number  6726

Interesting line of thought - it could be directly applied to the 
question of drug & alcohol regulation in this country which I believe
you stood in direct opposition to on the same grounds that you now
seek to put forward...  My point was that the abuse is a result of
the prohibition causing the substances to have more glamor appeal -
you argued against this point.
There are many things that I see as indicators.  Evading the trappings
of debate (which I attempted to do before with my flag of no-contest)
I will state that my "gut-level" feelings say that people have undergone
a change for the worse.  It is very difficult to support this sort of
thought because you can get mired in the trappings of the language and
bogged in the LeBrea of semantics.  "Worse" as used in the last sentence
can carry vast riches of overtone and nuance and is hence a very un-
defendable word.  I don't want to defend it.  I throw it forth as a
gasp for comprehension.  It would be wonderful if it were an easy
situation to understand on the cognitive level - but - I am reducd to
the level of blind groping and touch.
   Personally I feel that the banal imitation of entertainment that
pervades our society has produced a society riddled with confused
and misinformed people.  We no longer have a valid concept of love,
sharing, committment, honesty or ideals of almost any kind.  They
have become twisted parodies of themselves in the hands of people that
make their living from sensationalism and glamorizing the mundane.
Listen to any sappy rendition of a "love" song to get an idea of what
starry eyed prepubescents are fed as "the way things really are".
Anyone heard - I think it's Bon Jovi - "Live an die for you ..." ad
nauseum "love ballad" making the rounds?
   I'm sorry = I really think that we have lost the way.  Our divorce
and suicide rate speaks for itself - especially with our young people.
They are disillusioned.  They have grown up expecting what TV and radio
promise and then reality hammers them down...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:39:31
Message Number  6727

You misunderstand - over 2000 years pass - the message is still the
same the promises remain and they are fulfilled.  There are no signs
that Jesus was a meglomaniac and in fact was a highly respected 
teacher.  The Kabbalists maintain that Jesus was removed from the 
temple when he made his great debut at 12 years of age.  he impressed
them so much with his knowledge that he became an Essene- which is
a very strict sect that some people refer to as the Jewish mystics.
This is where they would have us believe he went - the point I try to
make (tho sidetracked) is that he was a) intelligent b) respected
c) sane.  He stated for the record that he was the Son of God, the
Christ.  Written record by three of his disciples bears testimony that
he rose from the grave after three days to fulfill prophesy.  This
measly written record would have hardly excited and infused a populace
that had only recently demanded his blood and refused to set him free
in fact it was put down years after the resurrection.  Now - with 
nothing apparent to gain and his life to lose can you see him give his
life with no attempt at defense?  Can you see generations of people
suffering great hardships and persecution for the sake of a charlatan?
Can you see ordinary people with nothing to gain personally dying
for this sort of system?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Really translit
Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:50:51
Message Number  6728

Instead you belong and claim kinship with the greatest conglomeration
of consumers the earth has ever had the misfortune to bear under.  That
rape her of necessary ground cover that process our waste carbon
dioxide and enrich our atmosphere.  That riddle the ground with
gaping holes as we plunder the resources with nary a thought to 
preventing the wound from festering with erosion and carrying precious
topsoils into the sea.  A society that produces billions of tons of
waste that even the vast resources of the planet cannot break down
within millenia and thus rob resources that can never be reclaimed.
A race that has brought forth such scintillating personalities as
Adolf Hitler, Himmler, and Atilla the Hun to enrich the soil with the
bodies of their fellow man.  Societies that send thousands of their
young people to a little-known ex-French province to enforce an idea
even more abstract than Christianity, democracy, upon the confused 
and unwilling citizens of said country.
Huh!  I'm not to sure that /I/ want to lay claim to that.  I won't 
even go into the argument of understanding the nature of God - we
can't even understand our own nature.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Polar bear     
Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:02:18
Message Number  6729

Don't forget the "Thumper ThrumSticks"!!! I'll be there!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TREE BEARD          
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:04:49
Message Number  6730

Sad but true - you will put on weight!  A friend explains it that 
the body is in an alkaline state from smoking and now it is off
balance.  Water is the great equalizer and apparently the body
soaks it in.  I've managed to halt my gain but still put on about
30 lbs!  Ye gads! And this is when I am eating better (proper) and 
getting more exercise!  I also feel lazier in some respects and
have contemplated starting smoking again just to get the engine
back up to warp speed - you know the feeling I'm sure.  BUT - 
I don't cough anymore, I don't get winded so easy, my house doesn't
stink, my computer stuff is cream and not dull tan like it was AND
I'm about $20 richer every week!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Guitars        
Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:11:15
Message Number  6731

"In my quest for the ultimate obscene sound I examined all musical
instruments.  A saxophone comes close, but is not obscene.  When I 
heard my first electric guitar I knew that if ever a truly obscene
sound were to issue from a musical instrument - it would come from 
and electric guitar.  A sax may aspire to obscene but only attain
sleazy - a guitar has the potential to be truly obscene".
                                    Frank Zappa
 
Maybe we can get together sometime - what kind of guitar is it?
(in passing - ignore spelling problems unless they prove to be chronic.
I get excited and I have a dyslectic keyboard)
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:18:02
Message Number  6732

Seems to me you have made a choice.  Was it hard?  Was there any
interference?  Looks like the system works to me.  You have your
free will to say "Pond Water!" and reject the system as false with
the blithe and easy air of a man who knows he's right.  So what's yer
beef?  Just because /I/ say it ain't so is no reason for a man who
truly knows his mind to feel any hostility - I would rather believe
a sad shake of the head as you realize the delusions that some
people suffer under...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Really translit
Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:23:02
Message Number  6733

Carefully re-read the posts - the intended audience, Turtle, got
the joke.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: BEATLE              
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:25:31
Message Number  6734

Bummer!  Personally - I lied and started working at a cafeteria
when I was 14.  By the time my SSAN card got back they said
"what the hell..."
Be a mogul my man!  Nothing's too hard!  I will give you a - ready? -
GUARANTEED money maker.  Get a fixture to sharpen mower blades and
learn how to use it.  Find out the most common plugs and mufflers
that fit the 3 most common Briggs & Stratten engines - we're talking
about $50 seed money here.  Now do up some flyers saying you will be
at the corner of X & Y Saturday the Zth of <month> to do general
mower repair/tuneups (oops - I forgot some need points too).
Show up with the parts and some oil, WD-40 for sticky levers and such
and have at it.  I've seen people rake in $100 and have to go get 
more parts and promise to come back!  Lack of experience?  Let your
age work for you - "Gee mister I've never done that - can you help
me with it?"  I've seen people practically do the job and still pay
a tip on top of the fee!  Some people get a swelled chest that they
could show you how to do it.  I'm dead serious that this works.  In
a truly good location - I knew a black gentleman in Utah that made
$50,000 a year mostly under the table doing exactly this out of an
old dilapidated pickup.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: ALL                 
Subject: JOB            
Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:37:25
Message Number  6735

Hi-Stat has a job opening for the second shift.  the job would entail
basic maintenance and pay at a rate between $5 to $6 an hour or so.
Give me a call and leave a message 355-9761 extension 2029.
 
                                   JonBoy
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: relationships  
Date & Time: 07/23/90 22:33:41
Message Number  6736

I think that you are right. There are good guys out there that are not f
fags. I hope that I am one of those good guys. You have to work at it
I once helped a young lady out because she was in real harms way. She
accused me of being a pervert. I just moved her wheel chair out of the w
way of a group of customers headed for a one hour sell. For moving her c
chair I was submitted to a half hour hurrang from her and my boss.
What is this about the people in Florida trying to kill off their social
workers with idiotic laws. It is rather hard to carry a caseload and
act as Superman. I can not think of one person who can second guess
what a distressed mother will do.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/23/90 22:44:37
Message Number  6737

Specialist you are on the point and to the point. You are right
We should get together and wipe him out(small him not caps). The 
people have destroyed religion. They are using a mistic force to
control our lives. I object to this also. Did you know how religious bel
beliefs got started? This would really upset the Baptists if they
knew. There would be a Reformation of the Protestant faith just as the o
one that occurred in the Middle Ages to the Catholic religion.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/23/90 23:03:00
Message Number  6740

Wouldn'tit be sttrange if all of us had to wear a cross, or a star of
David, or a triangle about our necks. I would look rather strange wearin
wearing a cross and a star of david. Hum but that is what our ancestors
did in Germany so why not in America.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: KEN OBER            
Subject: Marxism        
Date & Time: 07/23/90 23:59:47
Message Number  6741

>Mandatory recycling /would/ be socially unacceptable if we were not
>living in a era where Marxism is socially acceptable....
 
From this may I assume that you feel that a tie exists between Marxism 
and mandatory recycling?  Please elaborate.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Moral/Relavancy
Date & Time: 07/24/90 00:11:00
Message Number  6742

>So, my point is this...perverse is a matter of opinion.  The more
>people who hold an opinion, the more "right" that opinion becomes.
>If Hitler had won the war, what would we all think of Jews right NOW?
>We might not even have to worry about it, but that's the way we would 
>the fact that we won was the only thing which makes us realize that he 
>was 'wrong'.
 
I see; because homosexuality and bisexuality are supported on this board
(as the majority of the users believe in freedom of choice) then within
the context of this board they are just as 'normal' as heterosexuality.
The opinion of the public at large does _not_ really matter to many
people (thank the gods), and even in your theoretical case there would
be dissidents.  The more opressive a society is of a particular group
or groups, the more rabid they and their advocates will become.  
Eventually a vocal enough group will be able to sway public opinion (as
is evident by such groups as the 'moral majority', gay rights
organizations, and the various ecological groups, eventually eating away
at the cause of the opression.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Moral/Relavancy
Date & Time: 07/24/90 00:27:14
Message Number  6743

>"open" = "weak"
 
PLEASE elaborate, as I feel the need to shread something.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Stuff          
Date & Time: 07/24/90 00:29:03
Message Number  6744

>Like you've really got a problem. How'd /you/ like to be associated
>with  hyperactive reptile with a short attention span?
 
But you _are_ hyperavtive, do have a short attention span (as a result
of the former, but this has many exceptions), and tend to sleep a great
deal (and have been quoted as saying "Sleep is for turtles").
 
Hmm.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/24/90 00:39:58
Message Number  6745

>unless you count AIDS victims, but I'm not
 
Hmm.  AIDS a disease that now appears to be spreading faster in the
heterosexual community (as the gay community has become more educated).
 
>I believe that you gave a pretty good definition for perverse above.
>"Deviant from society's norm."
 
Then all BBS users are perverse, as are tri-lingual Americans, as are
people who drive VW buses, as are people who speak estonian, . . . etc.
I do not think it is necessary to continue.
 
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/24/90 00:49:01
Message Number  6746

>...and the women were not the usual run of the mill butches who usually
>take up homosexuality.
 
Gods I know some people you should meet.  They all fall between 6 and 8
on a scall of 1 to 10.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: THRUD               
Subject: Polar bear     
Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:13:24
Message Number  6747

>How'd ya like to have 800 kilos of snowy white fur on your chest...
 
Ohhh, sounds kinda kinky if ya ask me.
          -or-
I dunno, what's the street value of a kilo of snowy white fur?
 
 
Yes, it's..."Choose your own response.  You determine the outcome of 
this message chain."
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: BEATLE              
Subject: expotech       
Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:21:10
Message Number  6748

Oh yes, I do have your TNG tape.  Remind me sometime and I'll return 
it.  Actually, I may see you tommorow, or I may not.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Calling...     
Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:23:14
Message Number  6749

I'm kinda fond of that box.  Besides storing Beagle Bros. stuff, some
issues of Nibble and Core, it now holds my log printouts for my BBS,
an issue of "Previews," an issue or two of Omni, and my shirt and socks.
And to top it all off, it blocks the mess under my desk!
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:26:07
Message Number  6750

I'd be concerned about what kinda ball it was.  Those new Nerf balls
are made to be off balance and they go all over the place.  And does
the ball have a string on it so it'll come back?  Turtle's trying to
catch you on a trick question.  Ask for diagrams and pie charts before
answering this one.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Polar bear     
Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:30:03
Message Number  6751

Nahh, this time I'm doing "Thumper Tenders."  Should prove to be a
tasty snack.  Lightly breaded and fried, you'll have 16 kinds of 
sauce to choose from.
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: JONBOY              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:31:32
Message Number  6752

You know what will really clean up a //e case like nothing else?  Zit
pads like Oxy and Stridex.  I myself used an Oxy Maximum strenth on 
mine and it cleaned off 5 years of gunk it 2 minutes.  I had tried 
almost everything else to get that dirt out...
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Smurf Metal... 
Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:38:22
Message Number  6753

     "Who's him?" I ask.  I turn around to see a familiar person
conversing with the Norse giant.  "Oh him," I say, sounding less than
thrilled and return to Turtle.  "As far as I can figure, IBM, this
really large company, is trying to kill me."  Turle tries to ask why
but I add on quickly "Don't ask why, it's a long story and you wouldn't
believe me."  Turtle points towards my feet and mutters something about
a red light.  "What?" I scream still a little deaf from the bongo
recital.  Turtle slowly says "The red light, on your briefcase, is
blinking," and points down again.  I look down at the briefcase and see
that a red light is indeed flashing.  I toss the briefcase up on the
bar, and the impact sends bits of wood flying.  I look at the LCD by
the light.  "Phagocytic index low" I read with a puzzled voice. 
"Wonder what that means" I say to myself.  Hitting the briefcase causes
it to produce a sickly sounding beep and the display changes to :Energy
weapon- 8 metres.  I yell to Turtle "duck" as I slide out of the chair
and onto the floor, the briefcase following suit.  The briefcase falls
on my left shoulder and at the same instant a large hole appears in the
briefcase and the bar.  I look up just in time to see a short
something-or-other running out of the bar.  Turtle is nearby, also on
the floor, muttering "Cool, I wish I had one of those.  I wonder where
he got his at."
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: SNAKEBYTE           
Subject: HD             
Date & Time: 07/24/90 02:56:48
Message Number  6755

>Found an old Racal-Vadic modem...
 
Are you the mysterious person who's been unable to connect, by any
chance? On and off for the last week or so someone's been calling and
sending a Racal-Vadic carrier, which of course the Qubie doesn't know
how to deal with, so it promptly-CLICK!-hangs up. It's been puzzling me
for a while.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: TREE BEARD          
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/24/90 02:58:45
Message Number  6756

Agreed about the Supreme Court--choosing a man who will help shape the
direction of American law for decades to come strictly on the basis of
his position on one issue seems like a /bad thing/ to me. Let us hope
that George Bush can rise above the political squabbling and hyper-
conservative pandering that seems to be his trademark and choose
wisely, the weenie.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:01:47
Message Number  6757

>I don't understand how you can say that a mental defect MUST manifest
>itself in another way besides the most obvious.
 
I'm not sure how you can call homosexuality a "mental defect." You don't
feel attracted to other people of your sex; you don't understand how
anyone else could; therefore, your lack of comprehension constitutes a
"defect" on the part of someone else? I don't understand your prejudice,
but I wouldn't call it a "defect," even though it seems to me to be a
detrimental handicap--if I were handicapped in the same way you are,
some of the best friendships I have wouldn't be possible. Nor would I
classify your fondness for eggplant a "defect," even though I'd rather
have my tongue nailed to the side of a 747 than eat the stuff myself
(yes, I can tolerate people who will actually--UGH!--/eat/ an eggplant;
just DON'T do it around me!)
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: censorship     
Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:07:10
Message Number  6758

I can vouch for the fact that Donthen, nee Max, did in fact have a
hard disk error (although calling it an "error" is rather like calling
a nuclear explosion a "significantly exothermic event." It somehow
doesn't capture the magnitude of the thing.) Max on the whole does seem
more willing to excercise his abilities as a sysop to remove messages 
than I do, though, although that may be at least partially because
censorship and anything even remotely similar to it is a real touchy
subject with me.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Def Leppard    
Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:10:23
Message Number  6759

>...can't really play a great deal of Def Leppard too well on acoustic..
 
At the New Year's Eve concert last year, they played an entirely 
acoustic version of "Bringin' On the Heartbreak" that was positively a
joy to behold. That's the exception rather than the rule, but it shows
it can be done.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Que es?        
Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:13:19
Message Number  6760

>You will never change your stance, and I am going to continue bashing
>them...hopefully.
 
Hopefully? HOPEFULLY? What kind of word is "hopefully"? That's a
really nasty thing to do to an adjective there, buddy; what did
"hopeful" ever do to you? (You know, I hear in England you can be
arrested for using the word "hopefully" in public...)
 
You will take this message with the proper seriousness and reform your
grammar at once, I hope.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:15:59
Message Number  6761

>...the women were not the usual run of the mill butches who usually
>take up homosexuality.
 
Say WHAT?? And what, pray tell, is the "usual run of the mill butch" who
"takes up homosexuality?" Are you going on anything apporximating an
objective notion of what you're talking about here, or is this your
stereotyped prejudice speaking for you? I hate to intrude in your cozy
worldview with those nasty fact things, but I happen to know several
female homosexuals--in fact, I enjoy a (ready for this?) intimate
(gasp!) friendship with a friendly, caring, outgoing woman who is "one
of THEM"--and you know, I'll be dang-nabbed if I can come up with one
person who matches your cute little stereotype.
 
I can understand the fact that you and I have different views on this
particular subject, and I can even understand that you find homo-
sexuality offensive and immoral, but please: Don't automatically assume
that all homosexuals, or even a significant portion of them will fit
your little molds; don't presume to know all about a group of people
you yourself will admit that you will have nothing to do with, and
particularly don't slander people you don't even know on the basis of
an image that is little more than a caricature. While the morality
of homosexuality is a matter of opinion, in this particular aspect of
this discussion you are factually wrong.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:27:55
Message Number  6762

If you concede that morality is determined by popular opinion, then
isn't it meaningless to hold a moral opinion that differs from that
of the masses? You seem to use the statement that most people find
homosexuality immoral to buttress your belief that it is, in fact,
immoral; yet you also say that if public opinion changed, you would
still find it immoral. Is your morality dictated by public opinion or
not? If it is, then this is a contradiction; if it is NOT, then you
are acknowledging that moral opinions are not predicated on popular
opinion and that therefore popular opinion does not directly decide
questions of morality.
 
You seem to have painted yourself into a corner...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:33:07
Message Number  6763

>...that negates Turtle's assertion that Hell (Hades - home of the
>damned souls) wasn't mentioned.
 
Sorry, frayed knot. Hades in Greek mythology was the place to which
ALL souls, not those of the damned, went after death. The word "Hades"
is Greek, not Hebrew; the Hebrew word for the place of the dead is
"Sheol." Depending which translation of the Bible you are reading and
which passage it appears in, this word is translated as Hades, Hell
(from the Nordic word "Hel," the title for the queen of the under-
world), or the Pit. (The Anchor Bible leaves the word "Sheol"
untranslated.)
 
In case you're interested, here's what Isaac Asimov has to say about the
matter:
   "Sheol was visualized by the early Isrealites as an underground
world to which the souls of the dead departed. It was thought of at
first as a dim plac where there was no particular torture, but where
there was an absence of joy. Nor was there any distinction between good
and evil; all human beings went there after death...The moralization
of Sheol, its conversion into a place of torture for the wicked, came
later in history."
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Afterlife      
Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:42:38
Message Number  6764

>It is surprising the number of Christians that have never given a
>thought to activities in the afterlife.
 
What's even more surprising--and frightening--is the Christians who
/have/. I saw a series of essays once that were supposed to be
representative of the "average" Christian's views on life in heaven;
a significant number of them were along the lines of "everyone will
be exactly the same, there will never be any disagreement, everyone will
think the same way, everyone will feel the same way..." If that's
heaven, they can keep it!
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:45:18
Message Number  6765

Assume a wimpy throw that doesn't send the ball into outer space or
turn it into a fixture of the planet's satellite system; the ball goes
up, comes down some distance away. What path does it describe?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Society & You  
Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:47:25
Message Number  6766

>We no longer have a valid concept of love...
 
Ahem! Speak for yourself--while I see the point you are trying to make,
I also think that you're overgeneralizing something fierce. A concept of
love is an intensely personal thing, not something an entire society
has, and I happen to think mine is perfectly valid...
 
Minor quibbling aside, while I acknowledge that ours is a confused and
rather rude society, I don't think prohibiting naughty bumber stickers
is going to strike a blow for goodness and normalcy. Legeslation to
ban bumper stickers is so trivial as to not even be noticable when
it comes right down to it; it may salve some politicians' consciences
or make them feel like fighters for Truth, Justice, et. al, and it
may restrict my liberties, but it's not going to address any of the
issues you mention in a meaningful way. It is, on a practical level,
a pointless and arbitrary restriction that isn't doing anyone any good.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:52:42
Message Number  6767

Jesus was undeniably intelligent, wise, selfless, and truly dedicated
to making the world around him a better place. That doesn't make him
the Son of God, though he may have believed that he was. Yes, it is
possible that he believed himself to be the Son of God and was wrong;
that doesn't have any bearing on the validity of his teachings or make
him insane. (I don't understand why Christians assume that Jesus
couldn't possibly have been a megalomaniac on the basis of the fact that
he was a good person; being a megalomaniac does not preclude being
wise, giving, caring, etc.) Would he have died without offering any
defense? Yes, if he truly believed in and lived by his ideals; you
don't have to be the son of god to live and die by what you preach,
as Ghandi can attest. Did Jesus really rise from the dead? Hard to say;
with little more than the written record of some of his most fanatic
followers to go on, it's a contention that can't be tested, and in any
event medical technology wasn't really up to today's standards two
thousand years ago, and sometimes WE have trouble telling when someone's
dead. In any event, I still don't really grok how forgiveness for our
sin involves the murder of the being sinned against. "God wanted to
cleanse us, so he took our form and allowed us to kill him. That made
everything okay." Come again?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really backlit 
Date & Time: 07/24/90 04:01:28
Message Number  6768

Yes, I acknowledge that I am human and therefore a member of a species
that has perpetrated a staggering array of crimes against itself and
the planet it lives on. However, as an individual, I do not condone
these activities. No, I do not believe that the solution to these
problems lies in pinning my hope on some abstraction; I think the real
answers are somewhat more prosaic. Pinning hope for a better world onto
a fiction seems to me like an effort to duck the issue; god isn't going
to solve our problems for us, and everything isn't going to get all
better once we die. For better or for worse, this is all there is, and
we have to learn to mend our own messes.
 
I think you may still be missing my point, though. It's very simple: I
believe torture is wrong. This is a moral decision I've made, and one
I feel strongly about. Deliberate infliction of pain upn a sapient
being is wrong. If there is a diety who engages in that sort of
activity, that deity is immoral. I think it's a moot point, since I
don't believe there is such a diety at all, but if I were for some
reason to feel a need to worship some sort of abstract construct, it
wouldn't be one that engages in sadism or anything equally immoral.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/24/90 04:09:08
Message Number  6769

I think so far the dbates that have been going on have been conducted
with a remarkable lack of hostility. It's encouraging; I would have
expected several of the message threads to have degenerated into ad
homenim attacks by now.
 
Now if only we can get the Specialist (that weenie) to admit he's
wrong about gays...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RAVEN               
Subject: Stuff          
Date & Time: 07/24/90 04:14:12
Message Number  6770

>But you _are_ hyperactive, do have a short attention span...
 
...unless I'm spending six hours removing Kei & Yuri's clothing, of
course. My attention span varies directly with how interesting the
ting I am engaged in is.
===========

From: THRUD               
To: ALL                 
Subject: Aalborg        
Date & Time: 07/24/90 06:50:06
Message Number  6771

  Vafthrudner is unsurprizeed at the aberrant behaviour of the Bongo man
and the extreme rudeness of the williams person. The explosion at the
end of the bar was a bit unusual tho - was that a creature of some sort
that had.....no, nothing could move that fast. Although the giant had 
not spent much time among mortals before, he'd found that such conduct
was rather common. He discarded the sickening Rumpledrink, not upset so
much by having words put into his mouth, but revolted at the childishly
sweet drink. "Another round of Slivovitz to cleanse the palate, good 
sir."
  The turtle was an interesting one - with his uncoodinated movements
and facial contortions he was somewhat reminiscent of the demi-god
Belushi. He'd been a good friend, until he came upon bad times, 
probably due to his assosiation with that Greek fellow, Baccus, 
sometimes known a Magoo.
  The Frost Giant turns back to Angel and eyes her intently. Some how he
must get back to Aalborg and this one has a ship. "So you like Gjolp.
do you? I found her - or she found me- when she was just a cub. She's 
her own master, but she honors me by following me, especially among
men. But upon the ice, or asea, she may be wiser than all of us. Find
her some pickled herring from the place called Robarts and you'll have
a friend.
  Making a decision, the Norse colussos continues, "So where do you
plan to take your fine ship? Let me be blunt - I've gold aplenty to
help outfit her, and I'm as good a mate as ever stood a watch, and 
Gjolp can smell the North Star. I long to enter Fiord Lim and know
that home is near. And there is profit to be made......."
===========

From: MAX                 
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/24/90 10:07:12
Message Number  6772

Ok, then most people would say it travels in the path of a parabola.
Really, it's travelling in the path of a half-ellipse (some other sort
of "-bola" whose name escapes me at the moment).  Or maybe it's the
other way around?  No, this sounds right -- as much of an "orbit" as it
can do without hitting something large (i.e., the ground, unless you
threw it REAL HARD).
===========

From: MAX                 
To: XTEVE               
Subject: EPSON$         
Date & Time: 07/24/90 10:11:09
Message Number  6773

There are MS-DOS PostScript emulators for Epson printers.  Slow as hell,
but effective 300 dpi resolution (actually it's something like 270x320,
but that's close enough for government work).  Actually, even without
that, what the printer does is dependent on the software that's driving
it.  Most programs drive Epsons and other dot-matrix printers at 72 dpi
for graphics, but it's trivial to make them print at 144 dpi half-speed,
and you can make them print at 288 dpi if you're careful about things.
===========

From: MAX                 
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/24/90 10:15:22
Message Number  6774

I'm not sure that defining perverse as deviant from the norm works too
well.  After all, since a statistically insignificant number of people
like funny animal comics, publish their own small press 'zines or still
use CP/M or TRSDOS machines, going solely by that definition I'm one
serious pervert.
    At any rate, being "deviant from the norm"--as those examples show--
doesn't necessarily make one mentally aberrant.  And I will reiterate
my original point--if someone is a homosexual, that should not
constitute grounds for immediately refusing to associate with them,
listen to what they have to say, and give them any credit for anything
whatsoever.  I find advocating such a concept considerably more
disturbing than homosexuality.  And on a more practical level, I think
it can deprive you of knowing people who are -- gasp! -- homo/bi and
still worthwhile people.
    Of course, you'll immediately tell me that if they are homo/bi,
they're not worthwhile people.  Since you'll never be willing to give
any of them a chance to prove you wrong, you'll always be able to
believe that.  It's a beautifully circular system, quite elegant in the
complete unwillingness to ever challenge your assumptions (and let me
tell you, you've already thrown out a lot of them which I can tell you
are either shaky or flat-out wrong).  At any rate, I'm not going to be
able to change your mind, nobody on this system is likely to, and you're
never going to allow yourself to be put in a position where anything
COULD change your mind because you don't want to face that possibility.
Perhaps the fear in "homophobia" isn't fear of gays, but fear of having
your cherished assumptions knocked down.
===========

From: MAX                 
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: censorship     
Date & Time: 07/24/90 10:26:18
Message Number  6775

Yes, you're right, there was a hard disk error.  I happened to lose
about 1000 other messages along with yours.  If you believe I dumped my
entire message base to get rid of a few I didn't agree with, feel free,
but it'd be rather paranoid.
===========

From: MAX                 
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/24/90 10:32:31
Message Number  6776

> Can you see ordinary people with nothing to gain personally dying
> for this sort of system?
 
Ordinary, no.  That doesn't necessarily imply divinity.  I've seen the
"Jesus must be telling the truth" line before, saying that the only
other choices were that he was an evil deceiver or a basket case, and
it doesn't really seem to hold water.  The people needed a messiah; he
gave them one.  This has been tried in modern times, too, just without
success... but most people in modern times aren't in nearly as{
desperate conditions.  At any rate, the none-of-the-above line leaves
out the possibility that he was, in fact, consciously lying for
altruistic reasons.  Someone might challenge that as improbable, but
it could be pointed out that it's certainly no less probable as the
idea that he was God incarnate -- really, it'd be arguably more
probable.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Captain America
Date & Time: 07/24/90 13:04:16
Message Number  6777

  They are still making Captain America. I have seen photos. It's not 
really shaping up to be anything special. It'll be out someday... Lemme 
check my film release schedule and get back to you.
 
  In other film news, Paramount Pictures has set September 8, 1991 as 
the release date for "Star Trek VI" WITHOUT PICKING A SCRIPT!!
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/24/90 13:26:09
Message Number  6778

> ...strictly on the basis of his position on one issue...
 
  And he didn't do it. I think that was a wise decision. I don't see any
usefulness in choosing a person based on their beliefs or positions on 
issues..
 
  Hello, we're hiring you to bag ggroceries, what is your position on 
milk?
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: BEATLE              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/24/90 14:44:06
Message Number  6779

>  Hello, we're hiring you to bag ggroceries, what is your position on
>milk?
 
I myself prefer milk in cartons, not plastic.  The milk in cartons 
should always be bagged with orange juice or other milk, if possible.
If not, stick it in with other cold items.  The same goes for 1/2 gallon
plastic containers of milk.  The gallon containers should only be bagged
if the customer asks you to, and then only in the big plastic bags.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Stuff          
Date & Time: 07/24/90 19:27:51
Message Number  6781

I believe that was the point where I conceeded that there were some
exceptions.
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/25/90 03:49:14
Message Number  6782

 > I prefer milk in cartons, not plastic.
 
  Great, your're hired. Now, what do you think of Spam?
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: BEATLE              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/25/90 12:29:09
Message Number  6784

> Great, your hired. Now, what do you think of Spam?
 
1) No, I don't want to work here.  I hate the food service industry.
2) My thoghts on Spam? Ask one Mr. Al Yankovic his views, and you'll
know my view.
 
 
In the words of SCVM, Spam: Synthetically Produced Animal Matter
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: BEATLE              
Subject: Captain America
Date & Time: 07/25/90 14:04:41
Message Number  6786

>They are still making Captain America...It's not really shaping up to
>be anything special.
 
Really? What a pity; I had such high hopes for it.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Things happen..
Date & Time: 07/25/90 14:06:56
Message Number  6787

   "Energy weapon at eight...YIKES!" Turtle dives beneath his chair as
a brilliant flash strobes the bar and Rufus' briefcase explodes. With
half a thought toward acqiring one of those neat guns of his own, the
reptile launches himself flat-out toward the source of the energy bolt.
"Hey...HEY!" he shouts, and collides with a large, solid polar bear that
turns and regards him placidly. "Hey!" he repeats, then elaborates,
"Hey!!" Something fast and blurry vanishes through the door and into the
street. "All right, that's it. Now I'm pissed!" the reptile declares as
he disentangles from Gjolp. "Rufus, dude, what did you DO?? That was an
assassin robot. I've only seen pictures of 'em. Someone took a big
chance getting it here...did you, um, did..." He trails off mid-sentence
and sniffs the air. "Uh, Angel, I think your clothes are smoking. Guess
you shouldn't have been standing so close to the briefcase. I bet some-
one official would like to know there's one of those things wandering
around. Hey! How convenient!" Turtle wanders across the bar toward one
of the tables in the back. "Um, Captain Mulligan, I'd like to report
an illegal weapon in Raneadhros."
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:10:03
Message Number  6788

You know a guy - Spellwind - by any chance?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:10:48
Message Number  6789

Instead we carry a card that has a strange number on it whereby perfect
strangers may be informed of your closest secrets and strange buying
habits and various other pieces of misinformation.  Progress?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Calling...     
Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:15:15
Message Number  6790

And just think... it has my permanent address on it so that if I
ever piss you off *really* bad then you have a place to send the
hate mail, letter bombs etc.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:16:29
Message Number  6791

You don't have to warn /me/!  I saw the gleam in his eye - but I'm on
to this trick question game - I was in the military ya know.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:18:08
Message Number  6792

Just don't squeeze the chips too hard or gunk oozes out...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:24:02
Message Number  6793

Maybe the character of Hell was only related at a later time.  I have
attempted for some time to locate works on early cultures of that 
local (mediterranean, middle east) with not much success.  Any
good ones (procurable) that you are aware of?  while Dr. Azimov may
be our honorable chairman - he and i differ substantially on the issue
of religion.  It is the one area that I feel he is close minded on.
I might point out that the ancient Greeks did not consider hell a very
desirable place either - otherwise Persephone would not have been in
such a tither about being abducted there - what with a three headed
hound to ensure visitors got theirs and Charon refusing to take
souls that could not pay - effectively making them the early equivalent
of restless spirits doomed to wander unsatisfied.  Death has always 
been high on mankinds unpleasant reality list.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Afterlife      
Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:31:18
Message Number  6794

Face it - those are mental children with no thought except that it will
be "good".  I'm gonna have a fabulous time.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:32:35
Message Number  6795

Since the force of gravity has a squared term then it must follow a
parabola with-holding the effects of atmospheric drag.  The effects
of air simply modify it to what is popularly called a logistics curve.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Society & You  
Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:35:43
Message Number  6796

My thoughts were more in lines of generality on purpose.  Over generaliz
is simply a way of saying that I am not factoring in all the elements
of the complex equation that is our society.  A simplified equation is
useful in modelling the dynamics of a system.  As I have learned in
chaotic systems sometimes complex behavior can be modelled with simp-
licity.
Look at the restriction as a statement of policy by the powers that be
in that it is a guideline and manifesto of the game rules.  It 
serves a purpose in that it causes more mature minds to examine the
provision with an eye to comprehending the whys and wherefores.  Maybe
even come to the conclusion that these are wise and fair rules for the
majority of the people that it serves.   To many people see themselves
as society and are selfish in their desire that society echo their
views.  When it doesn't we see the foul flag waving madly and the demand
is made that it is an unfair provision.  This is necessary to the 
operation of the machine for without such movements, society would
most likely leave out any considerations of minorities in the grand 
scheme of things.  However, it would be impossible to come to a balance
that serves everyone.  Foul and "obscene" language is used for the 
purpose of shock and attention getting.  It was the judgement that this
was inappropriate on the bumpers of cars where it could offend people
that considered it "obscene".  Where are the masses to counteract that
assumption that these "do-gooders" are the bulk of society?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:50:14
Message Number  6797

Let me start at the end first - the reason that Jesus did what he did
and why it was necessary is pretty deep theologically and involves the
idea of the perfect scarificial lamb to atone for the first (and thus
greatest) sin.  I would have to agree that megalomania is consistent wit
Jesus' teachings as he stressed humility as the desired posture.
Megalomania by definition is a desire for the adulation of the masses
and thus he should have recapitulated to Pilate in the face of 
overwhelming public disapproval - which by the way came from the 
jewish peoples' belief that the messiah would be a king and bring an
end to the opression.  They WANTED him to be king and he turned it 
down.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Really backlit 
Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:56:43
Message Number  6798

YOU believe it is wrong - and within the framework of what you are 
and the society that spawned you - you are correct in abhorring
torture.  But you have also admitted that it is equally wrong to 
inflict your ideas of right & wrong on other cultures that may 
perceive things somewhat differently.  I maintain that God is
unknowable and outside your concepts of right and wrong.  For the
sake of argument - assume there is a god.  As he creates the cosmos
for his pleasure he decides to populate it with some sentient and
not-so-sentient beings.  For whatever reason - he decides to let
these beings know that he's responsible for their existence.
I digress - the question I wish to pose is - given the constraints 
of the materials at hand it would be possible to make either:
a) a sentient that is capable of reproducing and thus dynamic.
b) a sentient that is not capable of reproducing and thus has the
   tendency to stagnate.
This necessitates the concept of death to recycle the materials and
maintain a balance that can be supported by a carefully planned out
interaction of effects.
The question is: what are the moral implications for the creator?
IS it cruel for allowing death, or beneficient for opting for the
dynamic system without stagnation?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/25/90 20:06:18
Message Number  6799

I would like to believe that because we really rspect each others 
position as long as it is a /thought out/ position.
 
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MAX                 
Subject: Defib-nition   
Date & Time: 07/25/90 20:10:01
Message Number  6800

For elucidation purposes - here is the official defintion of the 
classic term; " Good Enough For Government Work".
Measure it with a micrometer,
Mark it with chalk
Cut it with an axe.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: Posiiton       
Date & Time: 07/25/90 20:14:50
Message Number  6801

Milk for adult human beings is a sham and a fabrication of the American
Dairy Association.  There is absolutely NOTHING in a glass of milk
which is essential to your health.  As a mater of fact, adult caucasian
brand of homo sapiens are the ONLY race that carry the necessary
enzymes to break down the lactin/lactase in milk.  Translation: if
you are non-white the chances are that a glass of milk will make you
violently ill.  That's why I used to get a hoot out of the commercial
with Eddie Murphey with a babe on each arm in the limo!
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/25/90 20:19:00
Message Number  6802

Wait - I always heard it was mucus - y'know the gooey stuff that flows
out of the can and sticks to everything?
===========

From: KEN OBER            
To: RAVEN               
Subject: Marxism        
Date & Time: 07/25/90 22:54:22
Message Number  6803

Yes, I feel anything mandatory (apart from the normal) is Marxism...
===========

From: CRYSTAL             
To: RAVEN               
Subject: hardware       
Date & Time: 07/26/90 04:52:58
Message Number  6805

     Guess what!  I have a gift over here from Tyler.  It is a monitor.
You can pick it up anytime.  The sooner the better.  I mean why should
you wait.  
                              * CRYSTAL *
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Progress?      
Date & Time: 07/26/90 05:51:27
Message Number  6807

Lessee...by carrying a card with a strange number instead of some sort
of icon which reveals your religion, you aren't likely to be shot,
placed in a concentration camp, burned, relegated to the untouchable
social class, or arrested...yeah, I'd call that progress.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/26/90 05:54:31
Message Number  6808

>Maybe the character of Hell was only related at a later time.
 
By whom? God? If you believe that the Bible as written by the Hebrews
is in fact the Word of God, then you cannot believe in the conventional
Christian Hell unless you /also/ believe that God didn't get the message
right the first time around and had to wait for the Bible to be trans-
lated into Greek to rectify the situation. It's more reasonable, I
think, to assume that the Christain Hell came about as a result of
efforts to translate the Hebrew scriptures into an already-existing
Greek framework rather than simply leaving the Hebrew untranslated--a
process that tends with every generation of translation to garble the
original message a little more. (The KJV represents in some places a
third-generation translation!)
 
Regardless of Dr. Asimov's personal views on religion, I think you would
find "Asimov's Guide to the Bible" a fascinating and thoroughly-
researched work on the subject. There is certainly nothing in there
which states that the Bible cannot be the Word of God, and it provides
a great deal of background information about the cultures from which
Judiasm and Christianity arose. Haven't really found any comparable
secular works floating around, and I tend to approach works which start
with the premiss "The Bible is absolutely correct and all our research
is going to be undertaken with that overriding consideration in mind"
somewhat suspiciously.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/26/90 06:02:11
Message Number  6809

>...it must follow a parabola with-holding the effects of atmospheric
>drag.
 
That's the answer that's found in most science texts, but it isn't
correct. The path appoximates a parabola for short throws, but in fact
it's a fragment of an ellipse--if the object could suddenly gain the
ability to pass through the ground, it would go into orbit around the
planet's center of mass. The object is /trying/ to go into orbit; the
ground gets in the way.
 
For something like a baseball, the difference between a parabola and an
ellipse is going to be negligable for all practial purposes. If you're
dealing with a larger flight path, a parabola becomes increasingly
inaccurate as a way to describe the path--if you're talking about, say,
the flight path of an ICBM, then a parabola won't even be close. Of
course, if the object is travelling fast enough to get out of the way of
the ground, its path becomes obvious...
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/26/90 06:10:15
Message Number  6810

>Megalomania by definition is a desire for the adulation of the masses
>and thus he should have recapitulated to Pilate...
 
Not necessarily. It's equally possible that Jesus believed himself to
be the Son of God and behaved accordingly, and was wrong. The fact
that he was wrong would not invalidate his teachings, or his wisdom;
the fact that he was a man of integrity would demand that he behave
as he did, consistently with his belief.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really backlit 
Date & Time: 07/26/90 06:12:56
Message Number  6811

It is dangerous to ascribe moral values from one culture onto another;
that doesn't always mean it can't be done. From where I stand, outside
the cultures, I can say that the Third Reich, the Thuggee faith in
India, and the persecution of people of Korean descent in Japan are
immoral. Yes, it's hard to defend the claim that there is any universal
moral code, but it's also hard to support any system which advocates
the wide-scale persecution, torture, or murder of large numbers of
people as moral as well.
 
To answer your question more immediately: It is not immoral to create
a race of sentient beings with limited lifespans. If you want your
creation to thrive and grow, it's necessary. That's not my objection.
My objection is with the philosophy that everyone who isn't properly
reverent or is reverent in the wrong way will suffer through an eternity
of physical torture. I won't even go into whether or not god has the
/right/ to engage in that sort of thing--I'd argue that if you create
something that is sapient and has free will, you no longer own it
absolutely and have the obligation to treat it with respect--the fact is
most people who believe in hell don't really have a firm grasp of the
concept of eternity. Eternal, everlasting punishment--does even a
monster like Adolf Hitler actually DESERVE that? The things he did
/ended/; the suffering he caused was finite. Would he still be the same
man after ten thousand years of torture? After a million? ten million?
a billion? There is no justice in torture on that scale; it's simple
viciousness.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/26/90 09:37:27
Message Number  6813

No but I bet I should learn who Spellwind is. Can you help
me out? My hands do not as fast as my brain so I 
probabily need to know him.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/26/90 09:40:26
Message Number  6814

Jonboy closet secretes I do not have. I do not like being labelled as 
such. Please be more careful. I am and have been a person with good 
taste and I probably taste good too. I do not hide behind false names
What about you? You see I get ticked off at times also.
Your label may hurt me so please erase letter 6789 from the board. I
do not think that it fits. 
I would like to open a dialogue with you. Name the topic and we will 
begin at your invitation.
Am confused by the number bit on a card. I am not 666 or any code number
close to it on any board. Please explain.
Buying habits confuse me, I bought a Fingerprint for my Apple and
a super serial card. Please explain your letter I am interested
in hearing from you.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/26/90 09:56:37
Message Number  6815

Jonboy, The early philosophers in the other schools of thought. The 
Chjristian side had strange beliefs also. It is rather hard to
conceive the earth as a giant cave with images being reflected on
the walls. If you had no spirit then you were a mirror image of
yourself.
A chair was a mirror of the reality of a chair. A dog is a mirror
image of what I believe a dog is. This computer is what I conceive
a computer should be.
Your joke at the end of the letter I just read is in keeping with this
philosophy
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/26/90 10:07:40
Message Number  6816

What? I think that you are probing the unknown. The units in math are 
just placed there to explain what happens if a change is made.
Whether the unit is squared or called by another name is not
important. The important factor is that I can use the data to
 make life a little more understandable ands acceptable to me.
===========

From: MIKE GREENAWALD     
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really backlit 
Date & Time: 07/26/90 10:17:19
Message Number  6817

I vote for death and the change it brings. Without the threat of
death you would have never become the man you are. I am glad that
you faced death and it is with you.
I meabn I am glad you were trained in the skills of death. To
practice is to become one with what you do. If you can imagine a 
action you become one with that action. Try imagining that you
are a success in an especially hard indever. You wi;ll become that 
success. The harder that you imagine the more of a pro you will
become
===========

From: MAX                 
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/26/90 10:48:52
Message Number  6818

That is, in fact, what I posted a few days ago, isn't it?....
===========

From: YNGLING             
To: RUFUS               
Subject: spam           
Date & Time: 07/26/90 15:00:01
Message Number  6819

S - some
P -prefer
A -artificial 
M -meat
                The Yngling
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/26/90 19:06:27
Message Number  6820

> Am confused by the number bit on a card.
 
Visa, MC, AmEx ... ect.  _Very_ thorough records ov everyones lives.
===========

From: V                   
To: DONTHEN             
Subject: 98/95          
Date & Time: 07/26/90 19:48:23
Message Number  6821

I'm afriad this reply may be a bit dated, but it is in regard to 94.9
vs 97.9 in the radio world.  I concur with you, 95 is more interesting
to listen to.  98 has struck me, recently at least, as being a somewhat
harder version of 106.3, or a bit heavier than the piggie.  I listen to
95 almost exclusively.  The fact is that the radio scene in the T-Bay 
area is rather dismal.  Classic rock formats can be extremely oppressive
to new music.  I don't know if it's an improvement to hear the same 
music from twenty years ago over and over as opposed to moronic current
music, over and over.  Innovation is a hard thing to find, I'm afraid.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Guitars        
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:09:30
Message Number  6823

I'd like to say that I had a Les Paul or a Statocaster...but no, just
some cheapie...well, both are.  Actually, I paid $150 for my acoustic, 
and the electric is borrowed...so I don't know how much it cost.  It 
doesn't sound that great anyway.  My acoustic sounds really good, 
despite that it's a Korean Samick 2300F.  (Whew!)
  I think that's a great idea, a get together.  What songs do you know?
In the acoustic field, I mean...
 
 "There;s a lot of things you can get from a Strat, because when you 
turn it down it doesn't get duller and duller like a Les Paul does.
But the really classic Stratocaster sound, I suppose, is that hard 
biting tone." -- Gary Moore
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:15:45
Message Number  6824

Ok, so do you deny my point?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Really translit
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:16:33
Message Number  6825

JB>Carefully re-read the posts - the intended audience, Turtle, go
JB>the joke.
  
 Nah, too much trouble at 300 baud.  I'll take your word for it.  Sorry
to butt in.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: JONBOY              
Subject: JOB            
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:19:00
Message Number  6826

Do you work at Hi-Stat?  What do you do?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: relationships  
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:20:19
Message Number  6827

Good point.  What a bitch that you have to be harrangued just for 
trying to be a good samaritan.  
  What do you mean about second guessing disstressed mother?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:22:19
Message Number  6828

MG>Did you know how religious beliefs got started?
  
Well, I thought I had an idea, but I'd like to hear what you have to 
say...
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: RAVEN               
Subject: Moral/Relavancy
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:25:20
Message Number  6829

YES!  That's right, you stated and paraphased what I had stated 
beautifully!  The conclusions you drew were logical and in order.
For this you are awarded the "Turtle Certificate" for clear, logical
and concise thinking.  (Keep at it, and you may make your "Donthen
Degree" in no time!)
  
  (Incredulous gasp from the adience at large) "Did he agree with Raven?
But Raven said that Homosexuality and Bisexuality were as normal 
as Hetrosexuality!"
  
  Yes, on this board.  So, I have no problem agreeing with that.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: RAVEN               
Subject: Moral/Relavancy
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:29:39
Message Number  6830

S>>"open" = "weak"
S>>
R> PLEASE elaborate, as I feel the need to shread somthing.
R>
  Ah, well, at the time I was pissed off, and I was equating 
OPENminded with WEAKminded, but now I can see that was pretty 
stupid, because it doesn't really work that way...nolo contendre.
Mea culpa.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: RAVEN               
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:32:45
Message Number  6831

R>Hmmm. AIDS a disease that...be spreading faster in...hetrosexual comm
  Thanks to the homos...who spread it to start with.
R>Then all BBS users are perverse, as are...ect.  I do not think....
  Not quite.  You missed my point.  I didn't say "different" I said 
"deviant".  Please note the connotations of the two words.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: RAVEN               
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:36:43
Message Number  6832

S>>...and the women were not the usual run of the mill butches who 
S>>usually take up homosexuality.
S>>
R>Gods I know some people you should meet.  They all fall between 6 and
R>8 on a scall [sic] of 1 to 10.
R>
  On *your* scale.  And why would you like me to meet them?
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:44:39
Message Number  6833

T>You don't feel attracted to other people of your sex; you don't u
T>understand how anyone else could; 
  Wrong.  I can understand that easily.  It is caused by a faulty 
switch somewhere in the main uP of the person affected by this malady.
What I don't understand is how you can equate this sickness with a 
preference/nonpreference for eggplant.  The two are totally different
situations.  Homosexuality is not a "preference", it's a sickness.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: censorship     
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:49:36
Message Number  6834

T>I can vouch for the fact that Donthen, nee Max, did in fact have a
T>hard disk error...
  Ah, yes, so can I...but not in this particular situation.  We all know
that he had several during the time that "Wyvern's" was up....
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Def Leppard    
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:51:40
Message Number  6835

T>...they played an entirely acoustic...but it shows it can be done.
  
Thank you for correcting me.
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:54:39
Message Number  6836

Sorry, it just seems to me that I have met more women homosexuals who
fell into "my nice little stereotype" than any other.  
  
  Although, upon further reflection, I haven't really met that many....
Tellya what...you prove me wrog and I'll admit to your "fact".  Also,
while we're at it, show me a homo man who isn't slightly effeminate,
and I'll drop that "swishy" stereotype, too. Hopefully. (Used as adverb,
to describe the verb "drop"...ie, hopefully drop [something])
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:59:40
Message Number  6837

I did not say that MY morality was (or would be) changed by popular 
opinion.  Consider this: Society as an entity.  Say, popular opinion 
changes, so Society's opinion changes.  Obviously, when a person is 
brought up with certain beliefs, his opinions and values are not going
to change overnight.  Especially on ones that he feels strongly about.
  If public opinion changes (and stays changed) then the new generations
coming up will tend to reinforce this opinion...whether it's morality, o
or opinions about another country, or whathaveyou.  
===========

From: THE SPECIALIST      
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/26/90 22:11:35
Message Number  6838

T>I think so far the dbates that have been going on have been conducted
T>with a remarkable lack of hostility.
  
  I agree.  A big round of applause for all of you intellectuals.
 
T>Now if only we can the the Specialist (that weenie...
  
  Hey!
  
T>...) to admit he's wrong about gays...
  
  Fat chance.  Besides, why would you wnat to do that?  To turn me into
a conformist?
===========

From: TREE BEARD          
To: JONBOY              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/27/90 00:48:45
Message Number  6839

      Yes, all of the above...  But I'm cycling, and it helps to get
my metabalism running just a bit higher.  So, now (it seems) that I 
am not quite so easily winded and can keep up a high cadence longer.
School is just around the corner, so Ill get the info for you soon.
So, this is just a chemical thing?  Water retention?  I think the
oral habbit has something to do with it also.  Always having something
in your mouth.  Food or cigarettes...
 
          Tree    (P.S. I need that money for school, so I doubt
                           Ill start again, else I may get kicked out
                                  of my townhouse.)
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/27/90 01:13:35
Message Number  6841

>A chair was the mirror of the reality of a chair. A dog is a mirror
>image of what I believe a dog is.
 
A perfect form is the image of what you're trying to explain. A Def
Leppard song called "Pour Some Sugar On Me" is the Platonic archtype of
that particular type  of music.
 
Plato was a bore.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 01:19:26
Message Number  6842

>Homosexuality is not a "preference," it's a sickness.
 
A difficult premiss to support, I think, unless you're defining the
word "sickness" as "that which manifests itself as a tendency that I
don't like."
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 01:20:56
Message Number  6843

>...you prove me wrong and I'll admit to your "fact."
 
Difficult to do, since you have already stated that you won't associate
with someone who's homosexual or bisexual long enough to get to know
that person.
 
>...hopefully drop [something]...
 
Like, say, the OED Handbook of Grammar and Usage [on your foot].
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Moral/Popular  
Date & Time: 07/27/90 01:23:13
Message Number  6844

>If public opinion changes...then the new generations coming up will
>tend to reinforce this opinion...
 
...but the old generations will cling stubbornly to their prejudice,
neh? I'm sorry, I simply cannot accept bigotry as "moral," regardless of
how popular that bigotry is.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/27/90 01:25:14
Message Number  6845

>Besides, why would you want to do that? To turn me into a conformist?
 
But my dear sir, by your own admission you /are/ a conformist! The only
evidence you've provided to support your judgement of homosexuality
so far is "everyone else thinks that way"!
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/27/90 01:58:38
Message Number  6846

>...the gooey stuff that flows out of the can and sticks to everything?
 
  You must mean Ken Ober's "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Retromutagen
Ooze" (I am NOT making this up!)
  The ooze comes in a little trash can, and it has a little glow in the 
dark turtle in it. It says things on it like "Mutate like a real Ninja 
Turtle!", "Non-Toxic" and "Will not stain carpets, but willstick to 
human hair, some carpets, and certain breeds of household pets. May 
cause hands to be covered with a layer of slime." Of course, I slightly
exaggerated the last quote. I am however really upset that the label 
does not inform you that the colloid slime inside actually will LIQUIFY!
  I discovered this unique property  one day while trying to open the 
ooze, which was oddly stuck shut. As you may guess, when the lid of a 
container holding liquid is quickly jerked off, some of the contents 
will splatter, namely on to my shirt.
 
===========

From: BEATLE              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 02:16:04
Message Number  6847

> ...how can you equate this sickness with a preferance...
 
  I think that we would be able to decide that if you presented your
medical proof (not your personal opinion) that homosexuality i in fact
a sickness...
 
 
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: BEATLE              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/27/90 03:40:46
Message Number  6848

We made some slime in AP Chemistry at the end of the year (yea, after
the tests are over, we make slime, get to play with 18 molar acid, burn
flesh, shirts, and countertops).
 
Fun fun fun.
===========

From: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
To: BEATLE              
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 15:12:31
Message Number  6849

I have just read the message reguarding "Homosexuality", your statement 
says that you believe Homosexuality to be a "sickness"??  I beg to 
differ with you, and YES, I have the Medical Background to prove I am
more than qualified to answer this question.  I have been in the Medical
field for over eight years with me specializing in Pysch.  Labeling some
one a "Homosexual" is not only dangerous, it is also un proven.  How can
you tell if someone is really a "homosexual", unless you are one?  Now I
dont mean to imply that you are one, just that there is no clear outline
avaliable to man to detect a "Homosexual" in our society.  Being Gay,
of Homosexual, is a choice and a choice some make themselves.  True ther
e are some influences in society, but all in all its a personal choice.
 
I welcome Feedback.
 
TopGun Strikes Again.....
===========

From: BIG LEW             
To: BEATLE              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/27/90 15:47:47
Message Number  6850

Is this stuff for real and where can I purchase it?  Have you tried to 
see if it will stick to your hair?  I would like some - your feedback is
appreciated.  Thanks,
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/27/90 18:41:18
Message Number  6851

>Not quite.  You missed my point.  I didn't say "different" I said
>"deviant".  Please note the connotations of the two words.
 
Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, p. 347
Deviant \-ent\ adj (15c) : Deviating esp. from an accepted norm.
 
ibid, p. 353
Different 1: Partly or totally unlike in nature, form, or quality :
     Dissimilar
 
Random House lists them as synonyms.
 
I think that you missed _my_ point.  Because we all differ from the
accepted norm (by being BBS users) we are all different and deviant.
Perhaps your dictionary has a slightly deviant definition (ask Donthen).
 
Before you argue symantics verify your arguement.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 18:53:04
Message Number  6852

>On *your* scale.  And why would you like me to meet them?
 
Because they will fall into the same range on yours (figuring your 
girlfriend at about 6).
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 18:54:46
Message Number  6853

>Homosexuality is not a "preference", it's a sickness.
 
As is monogamy, if you take rate of occurance as the indicator
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: I did not say  
Date & Time: 07/27/90 18:58:25
Message Number  6854

>I did not say that MY morality was (or would be) changed by popular
>opinion.
 
But you did say that morality was determined by popular opinion.  Please
explain the reconcilliation of these two apparently contradictory
statements.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/27/90 19:01:20
Message Number  6855

>Plato was a bore.
 
But the legions of philosophers that spent years writing books on 
Plato are even more boring.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 19:03:22
Message Number  6856

>Like, say, the OED Handbook of Grammar and Usage . . .
 
Turtle, you're getting anal retentive again.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: BEATLE              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/27/90 19:06:03
Message Number  6857

>The ooze comes in a little trash can, and it has a little glow . . .
 
Sounds like the same slime that was marketed about 5 years ago, but with
a 'glowing' difference.
===========

From: V                   
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 19:51:34
Message Number  6858

To interject, show me a heterosexual male who isn't slightly effeminate.
Fair is fair, I suppose.  No member of one sex is totally seperated from
the opposite sex.  You know how the saying goes - one is only 95% male.
 
Hey, it all boils down to X vs. Y.
===========

From: MAX                 
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 20:57:41
Message Number  6859

> Homosexuality is not a "preference", it's a sickness.
 
*** FACTS AHEAD ***
 
Nobody knows what "causes" homosexuality.  The only definition that goes
beyond the surface (ie, attraction to people of the same sex) is that
put forth by the American Psychatrists' Association, which in effect
states that it's a mental sickness if and only if the person afflicted
with it is dissatisfied with his/her condition.  This is, by their
own admission, a pretty useless definition.  Scientists have put forth
their own theories as to what "causes" it; sociologists have put forth
other theories, as have philosophers and theologians.  There is NO
evidence that any one of them can present to make it an open-and-shut
case.
 
Therefore, everything about homosexuality, and what it is, that you,
Turtle, me, or anyone else has said here must be an... OPINION.  When
you say that it's a sickness, that's your opinion.  Likewise, when
Turtle says it's a preference, that's his opinion.  Who's right?  Who
knows.  Obviously neither one of you are going to convince the other
one they're wrong.  (And as you know, Turtle's opinion is pretty much
shared by me on this topic.)
 
My objection to your views on this subject, from the start way back
when, haven't been based on the fact that you have an opinion different
from mine.  They've been based on the fact that I consider abusing
people on the basis of their sexual orientation, regardless of whether
they were born with it or came to it by choice or if they will burn in
hell or whatever it is you believe, to be discrimination, and I find
discrimination to be as morally repugnant as you apparently find
homosexuality to be.
    Incidentally, on what basis DO you condemn homosexuality to a degree
that it's morally correct for you to dismiss everything someone who is
homo/bi could ever do, say, or think and treat them as subhuman?
===========

From: MAX                 
To: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 21:09:28
Message Number  6860

*Buzz!*  Your message makes perfect sense, but the person you were
addressing it to, Beatle, was REPLYING to someone else, challenging them
to show proof for their contention that homosexuality was a sickness.
Beatle didn't make that assertion himself; your message should have
been directed at The Specialist....
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:00:38
Message Number  6861

Perhaps you should ask your chemsitry professor how to make oobleck--
it's a weird white cement-like substance with a VERY low melting point.
If you stick your hand in it, it will liquify around your hand (because
of your body heat) and then solidify again and your hand is stuck.
It's also really slimey when it liquifies.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RAVEN               
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:03:53
Message Number  6862

I dunno--Plato himself was a master of the art. His writings are far,
far more boring than the lesser scribblings of his modern-day
disciples could ever HOPE to be. It's not just his writings, either;
his views on Utopia, his ambitions, his personal beliefs, even his
very life: BORING!!! Plato is truly the God of Boredom.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RAVEN               
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:06:03
Message Number  6863

I am ALWAYS anal retentive about grammar. It stems from having two very
good, if conservative, English teachers.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Progress?      
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:08:45
Message Number  6864

I would refer you to the Electronic Gazette - I believe the December 
one - on Amelia's board as to the nefarious uses that the SSAN is put to
now.  Wait till they get the hang of it.  As it is they can make you 
an outcast in the land of credit where being an untouchable is very
bad.  What happens if something happens where martial law is imposed?
the SSAN is the perfect vehicle for keeping track of people.  Personally
I don't like it and wish there was a way to work without it.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:13:10
Message Number  6865

I tend to stay away from secular books also - too much bias that I am
capable of myself is built in.  As far as later elucidation on the natur
of Hell - how can God change his mind if as you say - it was never 
really spelled out?  I was going on the premise that it was never 
really understood or expounded upon in the OT days and that it wasn't 
until the minor prophets and Jesus that more of its nature was revealed.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:16:54
Message Number  6866

Methinks you draw at very fine straws... why not decribe a spiral from
the decaying orbit that is the result of an almost geostationary orbit?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:19:08
Message Number  6867

I have a book that you may find fascinating as it contains much fact
and a minute amount of religion - I loved it ; Og Mandino "The Christ
Commission".  The premise is that of a writer that started out to
prove that Jesus rose on the third day as a "good Christian"  He stated
for the record that as he searched he became convinced that in fact it
had been a hoax.  The imaginary stage for this is a Johnny Carson show.
I won't spoil it but he gets the chance to investigate himself.  This is
a truly interesting book.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TURTLE              
Subject: Really backlit 
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:23:45
Message Number  6868

A lot of Christians have gripped with the "problem" that you state.
Many believe as you and theorize that after a "taste" of hell they can 
be given another chance.  My question is: who would be so foolish after
to get it wrong again - sounds nice in theory.  I just have to file it
away under "the nature of God" sort of philosophy.  The entire book of
Job deals with this question (coincidentally it is my favorite book)
and is a real puzzle to understand.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:27:39
Message Number  6869

Spellwind - self-imposed master of the Non_sequitar.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: relationships 
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:45:16
Message Number  6870

My name is Jon and I have left my full name on here (Smith) several 
times.  I had to re-read your post to see what the hell you were 
referrin to!  /I/ was referring to the ubiquitous Social Security Card
that is used and abused for anything BUT your "social security".
As far as specific dialog - jump right in on anything - if someone
wants to debate/discuss it with you they will.
I have been informed that you perceived my message as an attack - nothin
could be further from the truth - If and when I attack you it will be
for probable cause and unmistakable in its content - so rest easy!
 
			                                  A Benevolent JonBoy
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:50:08
Message Number  6871

I presume you are referring to Plato's concept of "forms" and that an
object "participates" in a form to be realized as a form.
I confess I am lost on your interior cave analogy...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MIKE GREENAWALD     
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:51:55
Message Number  6872

Cut!  You are in fact getting close to receiving one of "THOSE" kinds
of messages from me..  Please talk a little sense.  The units are 
assuredly important otherwise you would have no idea of what the result
MEANT!  Furthermore the terms will tell you the shape of the curve
and by taking the derivative much v=can be gleaned as far as roots
of the equation, minimums and maximums.  May I ask what your level
of education is?  I don't want to be rude if you simply haven't been
exposed to higher mathematics.  Maybe a short dissertation would help
you to understand.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: MAX                 
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:57:19
Message Number  6873

Hey - I didn't cheat - I hadn't got that far yet! (heehe)
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: YNGLING             
Subject: spam           
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:58:01
Message Number  6874

I thought that was spelled DILDO?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: V                   
Subject: 98/95          
Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:59:26
Message Number  6875

I would love to hear of your concept of an innovative format for a
radio station.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Guitars        
Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:01:02
Message Number  6876

Lemme see - I've been out in left field for awhile but I seem to 
remember some CCR, Simon & Garfunkel, Byrds, Egles, Bob Dylan
and all kinds of off the wall stuff.  Didn't you say you went to the 
Doghouse (or was that Yngling)?  They have some instruments down there
.I have a Fender Duo-Sonic, Gibson MelodyMaker and a Ibanez Pro series
electrics and 2 Yamaha 12 strings.  My Duo-Sonic is like a Strat but 
only 2 pickups.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Really annoying
Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:05:20
Message Number  6877

I forgot what it was and I'll be damned if I'm going back a bazillion
messages to find it.  On grounds of nonexclusivity I will 
unconditionally (as a personal favor y' unnerstand!) deny your point.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: JOB            
Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:07:29
Message Number  6878

They call me an Electronics Technician but I design and build production
equipment for them and when I can be corraled - I even fix stuff that's
broke - be it mechanial or what.  I do programming in C and use mostly
IBM PC clones to run MetraByte I/O cards to do the dirty work.  
Otherwise I use Programmable Logic Controllers and program in ladder 
logic or Boolean if it happens to be an Omron controller.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Moral/Relavancy
Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:12:00
Message Number  6879

Latin & Latino in the same breath?
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Bias in bias   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:13:49
Message Number  6880

Rock Hudson perhaps?  I can't recall him coming across with a limp-
wristed lispy style - seem to recall that women swooned with considerabl
vigor over him in his heyday.  The problem with stereotypes is that
somewhere there really is a model for it.  Too bad for the rest of the
group this one individual will justify the stereotype.  My friend 
Harold for example is an absolutely PERFECT Jewish stereotype.  I
keep kidding him that I should rent him out to comics doing research
on Jewish Jokes.  My first (and still dearest) heartflame was Jewish
and you would never even guess unless she told you.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: THE SPECIALIST      
Subject: Really placid  
Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:18:28
Message Number  6881

Yes!  Conform! Conform!  You can feel your brain turning into butter...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: TREE BEARD          
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:19:31
Message Number  6882

I really wonder about the strength of the habits that lead to smoking
or are developed while a smoker.  I used to light 'em right and left
and just let 'em burn to a stub without ever puffing on it.  Man I would
be hauling ass on a mental problem (like programming) on a rare occasion
that it required extra mental effort I would grab the smoke and just puf
away till I had it sorted out.  Now I believe those were "props" and I
have a hell of a time getting things done right now because I have 
removed my "cue cards".  It is like the predictable behavior stimulated
a certain type of behavior from myself - now I'm semi-lost as I attempt
to forge new work habits.  I actually have a pack of smokes to 
deliberately temp me and remind me.
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:25:50
Message Number  6883

Be a real enterprising sort and find some slime mold on an old dead\
tree.  Neat stuff - it actually will ooze of its' own volition around
a jar looking for food - as an added value - some species actually
glow in the dark...
===========

From: JONBOY              
To: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:28:11
Message Number  6884

Are you /sure/ you've been a shrink for that long?  Last /I/ heard
it was a hell of a case for pro-genetic causes and there was no
choice involved.  You either participated or you did not - but the
fundamental nature could and /would/ not change.  My qualification?
Many many friends that are gay, my best friend is a shrink and I used
to be an aide for the Psych department chairman at my Alma Mater as
an experimental lab techncian responsible for implementing and program-
ming computerized testing of subjects.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: boring         
Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:51:33
Message Number  6885

>Plato is truly the God of Boredom.
 
Ever read Aquinas?
===========

From: RUFUS               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:12:05
Message Number  6886

>chemistry professor how to make oobleck--
 
If I ask her how to make oobleck she'll probably say something like 
"What!?"  Do you have another name for it?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: gates of...    
Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:31:19
Message Number  6887

I would still maintain that the advent of the Christian concept of
Hell is more likely to be the result of the efforts of theologians
from non-Hebrew cultures attempting to "map" the Hebrew religion onto
a framework of beliefs that already existed in the non-Hebrew culture
than to a new revalation by God--even if you take the Bible at face
value, there still isn't anything in the New Testament to suggest that
all sinners who die unsaved are condemned to an eternity of torture.
In fact, in a lot of ways that idea doesn't really seem terribly
congruous with the early Hebrew view of the universe at all; throughtout
the Bible, it's suggested (and stated) several times that the favor or
displeasure of God is expressed /on earth/, not in the afterlife, and
the concept of Hell just doesn't jive with that philosophy. Even to a
person who does, in fact, believe in Christianity, it seems it would
be more logical to view Hell as a cultural artifact rather than a
late-breaking revelation by God that somehow missed getting transmitted
the first time around. (In fact, according to several sources I've run
across, including both an article about religion appearing in Time
magazine and Asimov's Guide to the Bible, most Christian theologians
do not believe in Hell.)
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:38:27
Message Number  6888

If the ball were capable of somehow passing through the ground and
continuing along its path, it would describe a stable orbit that was
nowhere near to being geostationary--by the time it came back up to its
apogee, it'd be nowhere near the point on the planet's surface from
whence it was thrown. Most decaying orbits, in fact, decay because of
external influences--friction from the central body's atmosphere being
the number one cause of an unstable orbit to begin with. On an airless
body, that presumably wouldn't be a factor.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Truth          
Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:41:13
Message Number  6889

Sounds like an interesting book; where can I find a copy?
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Caves of...    
Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:42:25
Message Number  6890

Plato created the cave analogy to explain his concepts of "perfect
form." It goes something like this: Imagine yourself in a darkened cave
with a 90-degree bend in it which you can't see around. If there is a
light source in that section of the cave and someone were to hold a
chair before it, from your vantage point you could see the shadow of the
chair cast upon the wall but not the chair itself. The chair represents
the "perfect form" of that object, and the shadow is that which exists
in the real world; ie, all existing chairs are but shadows of the
"perfect form" of a chair, which we can never see.
 
As a philosophy, this one is untestable, has no particular consequences
which can be expected to manifest themselves in the real world, and has
the unique signature of Plato's--it's both slightly silly and BORING.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Pop Quiz       
Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:46:56
Message Number  6891

>Maybe a short dissertation would help you to understand.
 
e to the U dU dx   takes the place of normal sex.
(Wit and Wisdom from Calculus, Chapter 1.)
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:50:29
Message Number  6892

Myxomycophyta--the common slime mold. My all-time #1 favorite fungoid
life-form. They're just so utterly weird, you almost have to wonder if
the blasted things evolved on this planet. Part plant (sorta), with
definite animal characteristics (kinda), and if they get tired of
behaving like a single organism they just kinda fall apart into a mass
of indipendant amoebas with no particular predelection for one another.
And they can reproduce either way.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Defective...   
Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:54:20
Message Number  6893

>Last /I/ heard it was a hell of a case for pro-genetic causes...
 
Really? Last I heard (psyiological psychology class two years ago) the
genetic model was falling out of favor--nobody's been able to find a
gene or set of genes that's linked with homosexual behavior yet, plus
it seems to follow a pattern that's not in any way similar to classical
inheritance patterns (even if you assume it's double-recessive). It
also doesn't seem to occur at any particular point in a person's (or
other organism's) development and there doesn't seem to be any
particular set of environmental triggers that will cause it to express
itself. On the other hand--it /does/ appear that sexual preference is
largely (not always) involuntary and that it's usually (not always)
associated with predictable changes in the hormonal makeup of the
individual in question, although it's not clear if that /causes/ the
behavior or is the /result of/ the behavior. I think the jury's still
out on this one.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RAVEN               
Subject: BORING         
Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:59:49
Message Number  6894

Have I ever read Aquinas? Fortunately, no, thank God (so to speak),
but I've been exposed to some of his philosophies. A rather boring
man himself, there.
===========

From: TURTLE              
To: RUFUS               
Subject: express        
Date & Time: 07/28/90 01:01:01
Message Number  6895

Sorry, the only name for the stuff I have is "oobleck." I believe it's
made with corn starch, but I'm not sure.
===========

From: RAVEN               
To: TURTLE              
Subject: oobleck        
Date & Time: 07/28/90 08:23:58
Message Number  6896

All the ingredients are available at Publix.  Semisolids are fun!
===========

From: XTEVE               
To: MAX                 
Subject: EPSON$         
Date & Time: 07/28/90 09:33:46
Message Number  6897

Yo Max, thanks for the info.  Let me know if you find anyone with an 
Epson... -Xteve
===========

From: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
To: JONBOY              
Subject: Shrink         
Date & Time: 07/28/90 10:02:24
Message Number  6899

Never said that I was a Shrink..just said that I was in the field.
===========

From: AJ-<TOPGUN>-        
To: MAX                 
Subject: THanks         
Date & Time: 07/28/90 10:03:47
Message Number  6900

THanks, sorry Beatle then, my message where directed towards 
The Specialist.
===========