214 lines
11 KiB
Plaintext
214 lines
11 KiB
Plaintext
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Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 10 Num. 39
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=======================================
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("Quid coniuratio est?")
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HEAVENS GATE, JONESTOWN, AND MASS MEDIA FABLES
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==============================================
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An Interview With John Judge
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(By Sherman H. Skolnick)
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John Judge belongs to the Coalition on Political Assassinations
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(http://www.nicom.com/~copa e-mail: copa@nicom.com) and is
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renowned for years of research into American "deep politics." He
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has looked into the various political assassinations here in the
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U.S., and has special expertise in the so-called "mass suicide"
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at Jonestown in 1978. (See, for example, "The Black Hole of
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Guyana," by Mr. Judge, in *Secret and Suppressed: Banned Ideas
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and Hidden History* edited by Jim Keith. Portland: Feral House,
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1993. ISBN: 0-922915-14-8.) Judge has also been featured in
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past issues of Conspiracy Nation (complete archive at
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http://feustel.mixi.net).
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John Judge was interviewed by Sherman Skolnick of the
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Citizens' Committee to Clean Up the Courts on March 29, 1997.
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(Transcription by Conspiracy Nation).
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SHERMAN SKOLNICK: You have been an expert on Jonestown. Do you
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see an analogy between it and Heavens Gate?
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JOHN JUDGE: Certainly I don't believe, having worked on
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Jonestown and many other purported "mass suicides".... There
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never *has* been a mass suicide in human history -- I don't mean
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a family, or two, three or four people which might decide, in a
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strained moment, to commit suicide. But anywhere over ten,
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twelve people, you're stretching the bounds of imagination and
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human capacity. The brain, regardless of what it decides, is
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only perhaps at best 2 to 3 percent of the cells of the body.
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And the other cells have their own interests and will revolt. No
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one could kill themselves by putting a plastic bag over their
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head, for instance, because their other cells would force them to
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tear it off, regardless of what they're thinking. People can
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discipline themselves: like Buddhist monks who immolated
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themselves, over a long time, under great oppression, as part of
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a struggle. But when you're talking about, basically, American
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middle class white youth, and expecting that they're all going to
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sit and kill themselves in some way in a group, I don't find it
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credible.
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Regarding the Jonestown murders, a grand jury there ruled
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that there was not a single suicide at Jonestown. And even with
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Masada, which was the alleged Jewish mass suicide under Roman
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siege that's supposed to have happened in about 79 A.D., when I
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looked into the historical record, Josephus, the Roman historian,
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admitted that only a few of the Jews had killed themselves -- the
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vast majority were slaughtered by the Romans.
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I just don't think that this idea of people under no attack
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or stress would do it. And they had the people in Jonestown
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primed: they had them totally isolated, they were drugged, they
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were beaten, they were harassed, they were openly raped and
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abused, buried alive for periods of time as the disciplinary
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program there, they were harangued 16 hours a day, worked and
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exhausted to death. [But still, at least according to the grand
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jury, they did not commit suicide.]
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SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Were some of them working at the local
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industry? They had a number of mines and such near Jonestown.
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JOHN JUDGE: It's a very rich mining area. I think, at the time,
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they were still clearing the area around Jonestown. I saw no
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reports that they did actual mining work. But that section up
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there, Matthew's Ridge, was one of the richest gold deposits on
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earth. There's also uranium and bauxite, all of the connections
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to the river and railroad and airport. Union Carbide reportedly
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had an investment in that same area.
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SHERMAN SKOLNICK: You thought it was some sort of espionage
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operation.
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JOHN JUDGE: It was absolutely an intelligence operation. Jones
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himself and his top lieutenants all had connections both to U.S.
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Military Intelligence and to the Nazis.
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SHERMAN SKOLNICK: The other thing is that they seem to have
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corrupted state and federal authorities. From the United States,
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they had different checks sent to these people, which then ended
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up in Switzerland.
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JOHN JUDGE: They deposited money in Swiss banks. They took
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people's fortunes, but the money from these indigent people they
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oppressed (who were primarily poor people off of the welfare
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rolls, out of mental institutions, children given to them as
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wards of the court, going back to the period in Ukiah,
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California) were not the source of the wealth, which came to
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something close to $2 billion by the earliest reports.
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SHERMAN SKOLNICK: And the money disappeared from the Swiss
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accounts?
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JOHN JUDGE: It disappeared from the hidden Swiss accounts with
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the help of Terry Buford and Mark Lane, who reportedly went there
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and emptied the accounts before they were assessed.
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Mark Lane was a lawyer for Jim Jones at the time. He's been
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a lawyer for many of the people involved in these situations.
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He's the lawyer, currently, for John Hinckley, and was the lawyer
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for James Earl Ray, for a period, and served as the lawyer for
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Lee Harvey Oswald until Margarite, the mother, fired him about 2
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weeks in. He's inserted himself into many of these operations.
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SHERMAN SKOLNICK: What do you think about the Heavens Gate
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situation? (Of course, it's too early to know much about it.)
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JOHN JUDGE: Here are the clues that I think are the most
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important. First of all, these people were living rent-free in a
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$1.5 million pleasure mansion. And the mansion was owned by an
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Iranian. The Iranian who owns it had been in trouble with the
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federal authorities within the last year, because he was bringing
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Iranian students into the United States and securing fraudulent
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student loans for these people. And the federal authorities had
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caught up with him on that.
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Secondly, there was a person named Ian Spiro who, ten years
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ago, was a member of this [Heavens Gate] group (which has existed
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for 22 years.) Ian Spiro is alleged to have murdered his wife
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and three children and then killed himself by drinking cyanide in
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a remote desert location.
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SHERMAN SKOLNICK: That was in 1992.
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JOHN JUDGE: And it's reported that he [Spiro] had what they
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called "connections" to the fringe of Middle Eastern intelligence
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and espionage.
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There are people that are computer programmers in this mesh.
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These two people that led this -- Mr. Applewhite and Bonnie
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Nettles -- were in the news in the 1970s, on national news.
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Walter Cronkite had them on the news talking about giving up all
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their goods and going to another planet, and the UFOs. And they
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were known as "the two" back then. The press was calling her
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"Little Bo Peep." And I remember (I've not had time to check
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it) that Mae Brussell discussed these people on her tape, and
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discussed what she believed was an intelligence connection to
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this operation.
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SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So these people that died there, or were
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murdered there...
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JOHN JUDGE: I think they had to have been murdered.
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SHERMAN SKOLNICK: They swallowed up their family money, as
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happens with some cults?
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JOHN JUDGE: Presumably they were cut off from their families.
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And normally the pattern, and the pattern these people were
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asking early on, was for people to sell all their possessions,
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their houses and everything, and give the money over, to reach
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(you know) "spiritual perfection." I think it's also very
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unusual that the males had been castrated. [CN: "surgically
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neutered," but *by* *whom*.] But it makes little or no sense that
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these people are all on their back, they're wearing new clothing,
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they're all in exactly the same position.
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SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Similar to Jonestown, in some ways.
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JOHN JUDGE: Yes. The Jonestown bodies were all face-down; it
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tells you the bodies were placed.
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There were large vans there. It was reported a Ryder truck,
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an airport transit van, a Ford Econoline van. And it made me
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wonder whether the bodies had been brought in: killed elsewhere,
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over the 6 to 7 day period.
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When the authorities were checking the stuff on the web site,
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they said the addresses go nowhere; phones ring in hotels.
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SHERMAN SKOLNICK: We cannot assume that all 39 were computer
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programmers. They claimed they had some business going, but I
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wonder: none of the authorities have mentioned any records, any
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money. They claim that someone who was an agent for the property
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got about $10,000 a month in cash. Where did all this come from,
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and how was it accounted for?
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JOHN JUDGE: Certainly they didn't have a thriving business on
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the web. They had a few clients, apparently. And then these
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other web sites, which when I went to them included a statement
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about why they were *opposed* to suicide. And that they expected
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to go up into these flying saucers and their bodies as vehicles,
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are psychobabble. And they have key words: they mention Ruby
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Ridge, they mention Waco, they mention Masada. I don't know even
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if these are web sites of the group; they may be planted, in
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order to spread disinformation.
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[...to be continued...]
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Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those
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of Conspiracy Nation, nor of its Editor in Chief.
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I encourage distribution of "Conspiracy Nation."
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(1) telnet prairienet.org (2) logon as "visitor" (3) go citcom
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Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt.
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Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et
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pauperem. -- Liber Proverbiorum XXXI: 8-9
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