377 lines
21 KiB
Plaintext
377 lines
21 KiB
Plaintext
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Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 7 Num. 70
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("Quid coniuratio est?")
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OKC BOMBING(S) + 1 YEAR
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=======================
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Anguish In Oklahoma City
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CN Interview With Tony F. Sgarlatti
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CONSPIRACY NATION: What is your background, expertise, regarding
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the bombing in Oklahoma City?
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TONY SGARLATTI: I've produced and directed over 400 cable
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television productions, including a half hour video in May of
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1995 entitled "Anguish in Oklahoma City", where I took some of
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the raw footage from the first hours of the bombing on April 19th
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up to the implosion on May 23rd and show people the version of
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the bombing that was seen by an unprepared press. I'm also
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involved with a local group which provides updates on various
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happenings around the country that you won't read about in the
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major media. At those meetings, they share personal experience
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plus published material from sources such as The McAlavany
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Intelligence Advisor, Flash Point, Contact!, The Bob Livingston
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Letter, Youth Action News, Media Bypass magazine, and others that
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give you the scoop on major events that you'll never see
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elsewhere. Being in the cable television production business
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I've also become acquainted with people who have investigated the
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bombing first-hand and have reported their findings. I'm also on
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the Internet, both as a presence to describe an "Oklahoma City
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Fact Pac" I offer, and as an investigator subscribed to several
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mail lists which get various bits of information about the
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bombing.
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CONSPIRACY NATION: What makes your ideas, your information,
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worth paying attention to?
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TONY SGARLATTI: I consider myself a level-headed individual,
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having spent over 16 years as an engineer, so I think in a
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logical manner. And, I'm a credible person having a managerial
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position outside of my cable production duties and have obtained
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two masters degrees.
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I love my country, and am saddened by what I see happening --
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how our country is turning into some kind of gestapo run by
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jack-booted thugs supported by the Anti-Terrorism Bill,
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Communications Decency Act, anti-firearm provisions of House and
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Senate bills -- and want to see this downward spiral reversed.
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CONSPIRACY NATION: How involved in the bombing was Timothy
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McVeigh? Was he just a patsy? Is he totally innocent?
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TONY SGARLATTI: I think, from reports I've heard, that he was
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driving the truck supposedly containing the fertilizer bomb.
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There's other people that say he wasn't even at the scene, but
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miles away.
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His attorney, Stephen Jones, speaking at the University of
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Oklahoma at Norman on November 16, 1995 said: "When you know
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everything I do -- and you will -- you will never think of the
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American government in the same way again." What does his
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attorney know that he is not talking about yet?
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What most of the American public doesn't know is that McVeigh
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was a hero in the Gulf War. His division did so well in that war
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that they were assigned the duty of guarding the inside perimeter
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of a captured Iraqi airstrip when Norman Schwarzkopf was
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visiting. After the war, McVeigh was in Fort Bragg where he got
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washed out. His goal was always to be in Special Forces, and
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during a mysterious counseling-testing session prior to his
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aborted attempt to enter the Special Forces, his associates
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reported that he seemed a bit different than he'd been before...
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that he wasn't the same McVeigh. McVeigh told friends that while
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he was in the service, the Army had placed a computer chip in his
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buttocks to keep track of him. Reports of McVeigh's arrest, a
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short time after the bombing, indicated a zombie-like
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personality, who demonstrated little of the common sense and
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brains described in his military record. After he was arrested,
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one of the few things McVeigh spoke about was to complain about
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the continuing pain from his implant. He may have been involved
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in some type of psy-op mind control programming. His sister
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reportedly has a letter from him that says he was a government
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agent. It's not known if he was washed out of Fort Bragg on
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purpose, or became disgruntled, but then became recruited by the
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neo-Nazis. He was a patsy and had some knowledge of the bomb --
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but not knowing the full impact of the explosion or if the truck
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was meant to explode at all. For all we know, he may have
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believed he was only making a delivery. I believe that McVeigh
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was told that he was doing a job for the greater good of the
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American people, and not to worry how it turns out because the
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government will take care of him even if it gets to the point of
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execution; that they will find a way to rescue him, give him a
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new identity and have him live like a king in South America or
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somewhere.
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CONSPIRACY NATION: Will McVeigh get a fair and open trial? Or
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will the trial be more or less secret, as with the Branch
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Davidian trial? (Their trial received little media attention,
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compared for example to the O.J. Simpson trial.)
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TONY SGARLATTI: I think given the attention that this tragedy
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has had, and the amount of suffering experienced by the survivors
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and families of the victims, that the American public will demand
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that it receives more media attention than the Branch Davidian
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trial. At least that is my hope. The Branch Davidians, you may
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recall, were totally demonized by the media. The general public
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would have probably protested major media coverage of that trial.
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It may not receive the same amount of attention ahe O.J. Simpson
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trial, mainly because we're talking about a person being
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represented by a public defender, not by million dollar
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highly-acclaimed defense attorneys.
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CONSPIRACY NATION: How can McVeigh possibly get a fair trial?
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If he gets a fair trial, he would be found "not guilty" -- after
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all, no "fertilizer bomb" could have destroyed the Murrah
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Building. So they (the government, say) must have McVeigh found
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guilty. Right?
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TONY SGARLATTI: To understand the "justice" system (and I put
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justice in quotes, and use that term very loosely when describing
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fairness), you have to understand how the court process works.
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Let's use the O.J. Simpson trial as an example. The defense team
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spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on jury selection and
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other experts to get as much of an edge on the trial as possible.
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I suspect the prosecution is already doing much the same to
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ensure they have the upper hand before the trial even starts.
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Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols will not have access to such
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expertise and so will be at a disadvantage. I think that if a
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jury were to truly weigh the facts in the case, and the defense
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team has done their homework, they would have to come up with the
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fact that a Ryder truck carrying a fertilizer bomb did not blow
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up the building, hence reasonable doubt would enter the picture
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and an acquital is the logical result.
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CONSPIRACY NATION: Was this an explosion, an implosion, or what?
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Doesn't the debris suggest an explosion from inside the building?
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TONY SGARLATTI: The most damaging evidence is what was reported
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over the local news and CNN [Cable News Network] the first day of
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the bombing. Here you had a bunch of reporters running around
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interviewing victims of the blast and people that were rescued,
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who spoke to the news about what they observed had happened. One
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person in particular was on the fifth floor (and by the way, this
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interview opens the video I made, "Anguish in Oklahoma City")...
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He says (and I quote), "I thought it was an earthquake because I
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resided in California for many years, and it was almost like it
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was in slow motion. I felt a shake, and then it began shaking
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more, and I dove under my desk and then the glass all came in --
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and I think that's what saved me." If it were just one
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explosion, then how would victims have had the time to jump under
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their desks and protect themselves from falling ceiling and
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flying debris? The waterworks building across the street is two
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stories tall, and there was debris found on top of the building
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-- to suggest that debris came from the inside of the building,
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as does other debris found around the building facing toward the
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street, not away from the truck.
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In mid-May of 1995, retired Brigadier General Benton K.
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Partin, an explosives expert, wrote a letter to Oklahoma Senator
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Donald Nickles stating that "the damage pattern on the reinforced
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concrete superstructure could not possibly have been attained
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from the single truck bomb without supplementing demolition
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charges at some of the reinforced column bases. The total
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incompatibility with a single truck bomb lies in the fact that
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either some of the columns collapsed that should not have
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collapsed or some of the columns are still standing that should
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have collapsed and did not."
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Let's assume for a moment that we have a Ryder truck filled
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with 4800 pounds of ammonium nitrate ["fertilizer bomb"]. At the
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point of detonation this would yield an explosive force of
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approximately 300,000 lbs./sq. in. -- that's also assuming that
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all of the barrels ignite and explode simultaneously, which is
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unlikely to be accomplished by amateur bomb builders. As a side
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note, the ammonium and diesel fuel have to be mixed, and the trip
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they made to the building would have unsettled the mixture and it
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likely wouldn't have blown up at all. Now -- an ammonium nitrate
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bomb is a slow burning explosive that is meant to be used like in
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mines, where it is tightly compacted and put down holes. In open
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air, the pressure of the blast drops off inversely as a function
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of the distance cubed. In other words, by the time the blast
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reached the first column that fell, the pressure is already down
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from 300,000 lbs./sq. in. to only 375 lbs./sq. in., and the
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column in the second row which is a part of the major blast area
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only has a pressure of approximately 27 lbs./sq. in.
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Do you happen to know what the yield strength of the
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reinforced concrete pillar is? (The yield strength would be the
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pressure that it would take to collapse it.) 3,500 lbs./sq. in.
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It's absurd to believe that one of these large reinforced
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concrete columns would have been brought down by 25 to 35 lbs. of
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pressure, or even 375 lbs. for that matter.
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There's also recent news on the Internet from Strategic
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Investment, and they report
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A classified Pentagon study determines Oklahoma bombing
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was caused by more than one bomb. A classified report
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prepared by two independent Pentagon experts has concluded
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that the destruction of the federal building in Oklahoma
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City last April was caused by five separate bombs. The
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two experts reached the same conclusion for the same
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technical reasons. Sources close to the Pentagon study
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say Timothy McVeigh did play a role in the bombing but
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peripherally, as a "useful idiot." The multiple bombings
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have a Middle Eastern "signature," pointing to either
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Iraqi or Syrian involvement.
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-- Strategic Investment, March 20, 1996
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CONSPIRACY NATION: You have said that the crater in front of the
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Murrah Building is to the right of the major blast area. What
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makes you say that? How has this been covered up?
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TONY SGARLATTI: Logic would lead one to conclude that the crater
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from the explosion from outside the building would be directly in
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front of the major blast area, which would be the third column
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from the left. This is the only spot where two columns were
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taken out and the damage was so severe that there is a hole
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completely through the building. In his letter to Senator
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Nickles, [Brigadier General] Ben Partin draws his sketch and
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makes his conclusions based on that erroneous data. He later
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revised his drawing as shown in the August 7, 1995 issue of the
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New American magazine, and correctly shows the bomb crater to the
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right of the major blast area by over an entire column.
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If you were to look at an early Associated Press photograph,
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you will see a deceiving angle of the building, shot from a
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helicopter, that shows the crater directly in front of the major
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blast area. However, a birds eye view of the building or a front
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shot of the building clearly shows the crater is not in front of
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the major blast area but 20 to 30 feet to the right.
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CONSPIRACY NATION: You have also said that the FBI confiscated
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security camera tapes that showed what had happened. Isn't that
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just "standard operating procedure"? Or will it be 20 or 30 or
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40 years before those tapes are released to the public? What is
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your opinion?
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TONY SGARLATTI: The defense team will most likely subpoena this
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film as evidence for trial. But the question will remain if the
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tapes were doctored before being turned over, or if some of the
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images will mysteriously be indistinguishable or erased -- as in
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other famous cases such as the Watergate tapes of Richard Nixon.
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CONSPIRACY NATION: Sherman Skolnick says persons on the rescue
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team are suffering from radiation poisoning. Others say it's
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cyanide poisoning. What have you heard or do you know regarding
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this?
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TONY SGARLATTI: I'm in contact with someone on the Internet who
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claims to have degrees in chemistry and chemical engineering and
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owns an environmental consulting firm. Out of college, he spent
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two years in charge of the technical side of an aerospace plating
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plant where he worked with half a dozen or so 500-gallon vats of
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sodium cyanide and potassium cyanide on a daily basis. He also
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designed several treatment facilities for removing cyanide from
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wastewater.
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He pointed out that cyanide acts quickly and doesn't
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accumulate in the system to cause death or sickness later. Also,
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the cyanide anion is basically harmless unless inhaled as a gas
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(hydrogen cyanide) or ingested and exposed to stomach acids,
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which converts it to hydrogen cyanide.
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I've heard that it could have been a small yield nuclear bomb
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called a SADAM. Such a device would now easily fit in a
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grapefruit and deliver a 5 to 10 ton TNT equivalent -- or less,
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that is, down to 1 ton TNT. These things easily fit into a 105
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mm howitzer shell or a brief case. Karl Granse believes the bomb
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was shot from a missile similar to what was done in the movie
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"Clear and Present Danger" (Harrison Ford), that there was some
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sort of a laser-guided device on the truck, and the missile then
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just cut through the truck, and into the reinforced concrete
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where it exploded. (Assuming that a mixture of highly refined
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Plutonium 239 was used, this would have a relatively low
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radioactivity emission on detonation.)
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CONSPIRACY NATION: Have you heard, or can you confirm, that one
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of the sniffing dogs at the site of the blast has died? Any idea
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what killed the dog?
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TONY SGARLATTI: The first week of February another person I'm
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communicating with on the Internet watched the Westminster Dog
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Show live on cable. They had a short documentary segment between
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groups focusing in on one of the bomb-sniffing dogs of Oklahoma
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City. Since they seemed to show an inordinate amount of still
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photos of the dog, this person had an idea that they were going
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to talk about its demise. They went on and on about how this
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particular dog went "above and beyond its duty" to dig through
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the rubble, and so on. They also discussed its earlier work
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history, and how it had often saved its human partner's life.
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Anyway, sure enough, as the segment was winding up, the announcer
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said, "Unfortunately, Rover" (or whatever the dog's name was)
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"died of a mysterious illness this past autumn, and now Officer
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So-And-So is breaking in a new canine partner to replace Rover."
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No mention or speculation of what the "mysterious illness"
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was, but I thought it was interesting it was mentioned at all,
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and figured it must be a hot topic amongst the dog show crowd.
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If anyone knows any AKC breeders, showers, or handlers, might
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be worthwhile chatting them up on this topic, see what "rumors"
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they've heard.
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Since apparently cyanide doesn't accumulate in the body, and
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Karl Granse claims it was radiation, I suspect that the dog died
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of radiation poisoning. That would be easy to prove by examining
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the dog's body for signs of radiation.
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CONSPIRACY NATION: What about Debra von Trapp's story on what
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happened: can you spot any holes in what she is saying?
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TONY SGARLATTI: As I recall, she believes the bombing was a
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result of a retaliation of the Japanese for the U.S. allegedly
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gassing their subway. I personally find this story a little
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far-fetched, but at the same time I'm not discounting anything
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until the facts dictate otherwise. Debra von Trapp claims to
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have recordings she made of her conversations with persons
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without their knowledge, and other evidence to prove what she
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claims. One slant to the story could be that these persons
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suspected her disloyalty and chose to feed her disinformation to
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see if it would eventually come out from her, thus proving that
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she was not to be trusted. The easiest way to do that would be
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to concoct a story so far-fetched that if the information leaked
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out, they would know the one source where this information
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originated.
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CONSPIRACY NATION: Is the video "Anguish in Oklahoma City" still
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available? How can it be ordered?
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TONY SGARLATTI: Yes the video is still available. What's unique
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about this video is that it is only 29-and-a-half minutes long,
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so it can be shown at meetings or schools and not put the
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audience to sleep. It's packed with live interviews from the
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scene, has photographs to prove points, [includes] the
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seismograph from the University of Oklahoma and Kirkpatrick
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Center to show there were two bomb blasts, and [has] commentary
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of Karl Granse, interviewed by Terry Canady.
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I'm not selling the video, but instead, giving it away as a
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bonus to what I call my "Oklahoma City Bombing Fact Pak."
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The Oklahoma City Bombing Fact Pak has most of the data we
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discussed in this interview in print form, including a copy of
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the August 11, 1995 issue of the New American magazine special
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report which they headline -- Explosive Evidence: Cover-Up In
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Oklahoma City; telltale signs of demolition charges inside the
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building. The magazine is packed with color photographs, Ben
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Partin's analysis of the explosion and the analysis of the
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seismograph reading from both the April 19th blast and May 23rd
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implosion. I'm also enclosing copies of several newspaper
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articles, and newsletters devoted to the bombing, plus over 70
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pages of material I culled from the Internet that relates to the
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bombing. It's available for a suggested donation of $19.95 which
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includes priority mail shipping, and of course I throw in the
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video free.
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Personal checks or money orders only. Send $19.95 to Tony
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Sgarlatti, PO Box 323, Hopkins, Minnesota 55343-0323. Ask for
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"OKC Bombing Fact Pak" and free video. For further information,
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e-mail tonys@the-truth.org or see
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http://www.future.net/~thetruth/okc.html
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I encourage distribution of "Conspiracy Nation."
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If you would like "Conspiracy Nation" sent to your e-mail
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address, send a message in the form "subscribe cn-l My Name" to
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For information on how to receive the new Conspiracy Nation
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Newsletter, send an e-mail message to bigred@shout.net
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Want to know more about Whitewater, Oklahoma City bombing, etc?
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(1) telnet prairienet.org (2) logon as "visitor" (3) go citcom
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See also: http://www.europa.com/~johnlf/cn.html
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See also: ftp.shout.net pub/users/bigred
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Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt.
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Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et
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pauperem. -- Liber Proverbiorum XXXI: 8-9
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