textfiles/bbs/FIDONET/JENNINGS/CONTROVERSY/measure9.txt

Original Message Date: 21 Sep 92  01:50:51
From: Tim Spofford on 1:105/99
To: Tom Jennings on 1:125/111
Subj: FidoCon `93 - Portland!
^AMSGID: 1:105/99 84818159
bcc: TJ

I suppose it's somewhat disingenuous that I'm feed these to you at the <20>
same time I'm denying any hidden agenda, but I'll work that out later.

 * Originally by Tim Spofford, 1:105/99
 * Originally to Richard Bash, 1:105/68
 * Originally dated 21 Sep 1992, 0:49

 >              Tim, if you feel it necessary to start cursing at me, our

I don't consider "pissed off" cursing.  If you do, I apologize.  And of <20>
course I'm not pissed off at you.  Even *with* the patronizing tone of <20>
your last two messages, I'm not pissed off at you.

 >              conversations are going to grow shorter. If you "pissed
 >              off" at ME then be a man, get over here, get into my face
 >              and we'll go at it verbally until we find the cause of
 >              your concern. Otherwise, take it down the road.

Regrettably, adios.

 >            Tim, for whatever reason you suddenly feel compelled
 >            to sabotage our efforts to bring the Fido Convention
 >            to Portland in the Fall of 1993 (a mere year hence).
 >            If I am wrong about this, I urge you to make it crystal
 >            clear to me now. Frankly I have more important things to

Whether I work to help stage a boycott to any FidoCon in Portland depends <20>
on the outcome of Ballot Measure 9.  But it really won't take any work on <20>
my part. Get it through your head, Richard.  There will be boycotts of <20>
Oregon. Do you really think the Visitors Bureau is concerned about 200 <20>
people, that they don't even know may be coming?  Read what I wrote, man! <20>
You may choose to ignore that possibility unless and until it becomes a <20>
reality.  I don't have any quarrel with such a strategy, but don't shoot <20>
the messenger.

Perhaps being new in the state you don't yet fully appreciate how worked <20>
up people are on both sides of this issue, both locally and nationally.  <20>
Your proposal has to be in three days before the election.  The decision <20>
is to be made within a couple of weeks afterward.  That FidoCon 93 won't <20>
be held until ten months later is irrelevant to the impact of the <20>
congruence of those dates on the bid consideration.

And if I were trying "to sabotage" your effort, do you honestly think I <20>
would raise the problem with you to begin with, and then announce my own <20>
intentions? That would be, to say the least, a bazarre way to "sabotage" <20>
something.  Heck no, I'd blind side you with it.  Or try.

 >            do than concern myself with the frivolity and inaneness
 >            of politics,

Oh, good.  I am most happy to know that we can consider anything further <20>
on the subject of the 2nd Amendment as frivolity and inanity. ;-)

 >           Tim, perhaps it would be better if you did not participate
 >           in our effort. Obviously your agenda is radically different
 >           than ours and if you are unable to devote your loyalty to
 >           us, which your message seems to indicate is not possible for
 >           you at this time, then perhaps it would be better if you
 >           devoted your energies to your cause outside our group.

As I said, so long.  If you will go back and re-read my original message <20>
you will see, I think, that you're over-reacting.  What happens *after* <20>
November 2 (3? - whatever) has nothing to do with what happens now.  It <20>
was cautionary - nothing more.

 >           Frankly, I have no time for political foolishness like
 >           this. There are other things to accomplish. I am not
 >           quite sure why you wish our project ill but so be it.

I wish the project no ill.  You may recall that I was the 3rd person to <20>
express an interest in participating in it, conditional though that <20>
interest may have been.  You may choose to think I had a hidden agenda. <20>
You'd be wrong.

You may also choose to believe that my original cautionary note was an <20>
over- reaction.  So be it.  You were free to take it or to leave it, and <20>
you chose the latter.  (I would have preferred you had done so without the <20>
condescension, but that is not my problem.)  If you want a team that <20>
refrains from advising you of possible negatives, then I don't care to be <20>
a part of it anyway.  The last leader I can think of who operated that way <20>
was Richard Nixon and look where it got him.

 >           Perhaps later you will change your mind and you will, of
 >           course be welcomed to join us. Your attempts to boycott the
 >           existence of the Fido Convention are at cross purposes with
 >           our goals. Is that crystal clear? Again, if your view of the
 >           existence of our efforts runs counter to your personal
 >           agenda, then you should no longer concern yourself with
 >           us and devote your time to your cause celebe'.

But one of several. ;-)

 >               Tim, I do not know why you bear us ill will but it
 >               is beginning to grate. I have been gracious to you
 >               and offered you my friendship and counsel. You do
 >               not seem receptive to wanting the Fido Convention
 >               held here and THAT is the purpose, and only purpose,
 >               of our group.

To be absolutely clear:  I think it would be fantastic for the Fido <20>
Convention to be here IF "here"  welcomes all members of Fidonet, <20>
including Tom Jennings and Wynn Wagner, without regard for or interest in <20>
their sexuality.  If, on the other hand, the constitution of this state is <20>
rewritten to cast them in the role of 2nd class citizens and as <20>
constitutionally-defined "perverts," then IMHO Fidonet should not support <20>
"here".  I feel strongly enough about it that IF that happens, I'll <20>
support a boycott.

Good luck with your project.

 >                I'm not "into" religion but you should be careful
 >                who you go blatting off to. Some may misunderstand
 >                and think remarks like that are directed at them
 >                personally.

In some cases, they *would* be - and are - directed at them personally. <20>
Not, however, in this case.

 >                I, however, realize that you are just
 >                blowing off steam and that those comments and
 >                that invectiveness are not aimed at me.

Correct.  I've seen nothing of substance from you on the subject so I have <20>
absolutely no reason to include you within the scope of my comments.  Nor <20>
did I.

_ _ _ O_/_ _C_U_T_ _H_E_R_E_ _ _ _ _ _ _
      O \

I just stumbled across this in a message in another echo.  Now you may <20>
believe that I am over-reacting, and out to get your project, but rightly <20>
or wrongly, there are events going on of which you would do well to be <20>
aware, if not concerned:

"Oh yes, also look into the economic damage it will do. The Convention
Center has released public statements regarding the fact that they will <20>
lose 83% of the current advance bookings if Measure 9 passes. That is, 83% <20>
of the bookings they have have informed them that they will cancel the <20>
bookings if the Measure passes. Just *two* of those groups will lose this <20>
area over $180 *million*. (Check the paper)"

Original Message Date: 20 Sep 92  22:48:38
From: Tim Spofford on 1:105/99
To: Tom Jennings on 1:125/111
Subj: FidoCon `93 - Portland!
^AMSGID: 1:105/99 84160ac1
bcc: TJ

 * Originally by Tim Spofford, 1:105/99
 * Originally to Richard Bash, 1:105/68
 * Originally dated 20 Sep 1992, 22:43

 >            Tim, I think you are unnecessarily anxious about this.

Richard...I'm not anxious.  I am REAL pissed off.  Enough said?

 >            it is no time to get into "Henny Penny, the sky is
 >            falling." You, as an attorney, may be too personally
 >            involved in the political aspects of the election. So,
 >            please permit me to offer this: as you well know, the
 >            great unwashed population has a short memory. Whether 9
 >            passes or does not,

You miss my point.  *I* will work hard to bring about a boycott of any <20>
convention in Oregon proposed by any organization of which I'm a part if <20>
this state writes into its constitution that people I consider my friends <20>
are unwelcome here.  That includes FidoCon.  I will not be alone.  The <20>
Oregon Visitors Bureau is meeting on Tuesday to consider exactly this <20>
issue. Already, over ten million dollars of planned convention business <20>
has reportedly been put on hold.  Do you know what happened to the <20>
convention business in Arizona after Governor Tweedle-Dee quashed Dr. <20>
King's birthday as a state holiday?

 >            Time passes. If 9 passes there will be no restrictions, as
 >            you know better than I, on the free and easy travel of
 > people
 >            to and from this great state.

Of course there won't.  But the chances of FidoCon being awarded to you <20>
are, as I said, just about nil if Meaure 9 passes.  And if by some chance <20>
it *is* awarded, you can expect a major boycott, publicized I'm quite sure <20>
in FidoNews. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see an editorial <20>
in FidoNews about Measure 9 in the near future.

 >    point is moot. We are talking about a convention a year from
 >    now, Tim, not 90 days. So, I plan to go full steam ahead,
 >    elections, measures and volcanic eruptions aside.

Fine.  I merely posed the cautionary note.  It's your party.

 >            You are cordially invited to be with us. If your anxiety is
 >            such that you need someone to talk with, and I know I do
 > from
 >            time to time, then I am at 223-3160 and located at Goose
 >            Hollow Apartments, 1630 S.W. Clay Street, 8th floor,
 >            apartment O, in Portland. You may show up at nearly any
 > hour
 >            after 1 in the afternoon until about 2:30 a.m. we can talk
 >            till hell freezes over. Just be "clean" (for both our

I've been "clean" as you put it for seven and a half years.  It's not <20>
bloody likely that a bunch of self-righteous bigots hiding behind a <20>
hideously- distorted version of "Christianity" are going to cause me to <20>
change that.  As for your kind offer, I sincerely appreciate it for what <20>
it is but between my church and my support groups I think I've probably <20>
got ample sources of support.  Thanks, nonetheless.

 >            You seem scared. let's talk out your fears and press on. It

As I said, neither anxious nor scared.  Pissed off, pure and simple.

 >           If you are in contact with Erickson, tell him to make his
 >           system Crash Mail (CM on his nodelist entry). I'm tired of
 >           calling him and finding no frontend.

Hell no...*you* tell him that you've been ignoring his ZMH-only status. ;-)
(He's been complaining for weeks about people who ignore it.)  Either <20>
configure your system to only call him during ZMH or route your mail to <20>
him through your hub and let somebody else deal with it.

Original Message Date: 20 Sep 92  19:53:21
From: Tim Spofford on 1:105/99
To: Tom Jennings on 1:125/111
Subj: Ballot Measure 9 (Oregon)
^AMSGID: 1:105/99 8413cd32
Here is the full text of the OCA Initiative:

        This state shall not recognize any categorical provision such
        as "sexual orientation," "sexual preference," and similar
        phrases that includes homosexuality, pedophilia sadism or
        masochism.  Quotas, minority status, affirmative action, or any
        similar concepts, shall not apply to these forms of conduct,
        nor shall government promote these behaviors.

        State, regional, local governments and their properties and
        moneys shall not be used to promote, encourage, or facilitate
        homosexuality, pedophilia, sadism or masochism.

        State, regional and local governments and their departments,
        agencies and other entities, including specifically the State
        Department of Higher Education and the public schools, shall
        assist in setting a standard for Oregon's youth that recognizes
        homosexuality, pedophilia, sadism and masochism as
        abnormal, wrong, unnatural, and perverse and that these
        behaviors are to be discouraged and avoided.

        It shall be considered that it is the intent of the people in
        enacting this section that if any part thereof is held
        unconstitutional, the remaining parts shall be held in force.


_ _ _ O_/_ _C_U_T_ _H_E_R_E_ _ _ _ _ _ _
      O \

THE OCA'S STATEWIDE INITIATIVE
IMPACT STATEMENT #1
No on 9:  The Campaign for a Hate Free Oregon

The Oregon Citizens Alliance (OCA), a far-right political group, has <20>
proposed
an amendment to the Oregon constitution. Measure 9 would require
discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.  The effects of the
initiative would reach into our schools, libraries, work places and daily
lives.

If Measure 9 passes, it would be the first time in United States history <20>
that
a constitution has been amended to take rights away.


FULL TEXT OF THE OCA INITIATIVE

This state shall not recognize any categorical provision such as "sexual
orientation", "sexual preference," and similar phrases that includes
homosexuality, pedophilia, sadism or masochism.  Quotas, minority status,
affirmative action, or any similar concepts, shall not apply to these <20>
forms of
conduct, nor shall government promote these behaviors.

State, regional, local governments and their properties and monies shall <20>
not
be used to promote, encourage, or facilitate homosexuality, pedophilia, <20>
sadism
or masochism.

State, regional and local governments and their departments, agencies and
other entities, including specifically the State Department of Higher
Education and the public schools, shall assist in setting a standard for
Oregon's youth that recognizes homosexuality, pedophilia, sadism and <20>
masochism
as abnormal, wrong, unnatural, and perverse and that these behaviors are <20>
to be
discouraged and avoided.

It shall be considered that it is the intent of the people in enacting this
section that if any part thereof is held unconstitutional, the remaining <20>
parts
shall be held in force.


WHAT WOULD IT MEAN FOR GOVERNMENT AGENCIES?

Measure 9 has two parts that would affect government.
First, all levels of government - state, regional and local - including all
their departments, agencies and other entities cannot use their facilities <20>
or
money to "promote, encourage or facilitate homosexuality."  This language
requires discrimination.

Any government agency could deny services to any individual or group <20>
thought
to promote, encourage or facilitate homosexuality.  Use of facilities such <20>
as
parks or meeting rooms could be denied solely on the basis of perceived <20>
sexual
orientation of the applicant or applicant group.

Second, every agency at all levels of government - state, regional and <20>
local -
would be required to play an active role in setting a standard for Oregon's
youth that says homosexuality is abnormal, wrong, unnatural and perverse <20>
and
should be avoided.

GOVERNMENT SERVICES AND PROGRAMS

Measure 9 is comprehensive, covering every agency in every level of
government.  It forbids government from using any
public funds or facilities to "promote, encourage or facilitate
homosexuality."  Measure 9 defines homosexuality as "abnormal, wrong,
unnatural and perverse."  The combined effect of these components would be
far-reaching, affecting dozens of government programs and services.  A few <20>
are
listed here:

 Public Facilities

Groups and associations of all types could have their purposes and agendas
scrutinized to determine if their meetings "facilitate" homosexuality.  If <20>
so,
these associations could be prohibited from meeting on public property.

Permits for use of city, county or state parks could not be granted to any
group perceived to "promote, encourage or facilitate" homosexuality.  This
would include Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon, labor unions, the Oregon Bar
Association and dozens of other groups that have taken positions against
discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

 Public Libraries

Libraries would be required to remove from their shelves any book, <20>
magazine or
art that has any positive reference to homosexuality.  Books like the <20>
Pulitzer
Prize winning, The Color Purple could be banned.  All new library <20>
acquisitions
would have to meet a constitutionally mandated standard of morality.

 Public Television

Oregon Public Broadcasting would have to censor any program that appeared <20>
to
"promote, encourage or facilitate" homosexuality.  In addition, OPB would <20>
be
required to take an active role in teaching Oregon's youth that <20>
homosexuality
is "abnormal, wrong, unnatural and perverse," and should be avoided.

 State Licensing

State licensing agencies would be allowed to discriminate against any <20>
person
who is perceived to either be homosexual or who wants to run a business <20>
that
may cater to homosexuals.  Businesses would be scrutinized to determine
whether they promote, encourage or facilitate homosexuality or have a <20>
business
clientele deemed "abnormal, wrong, unnatural and perverse."  If so, <20>
business
and liquor licenses could be revoked and new licenses could not granted.
 State Boards

State licensing boards would have to revoke or refuse to grant licenses to
individuals deemed "abnormal, wrong, unnatural and perverse" on the basis <20>
of
sexual orientation, to practice such professions as physician, lawyer,
accountant, chiro- practor, nurse, barber, hairdresser, naturopath, <20>
physical
therapist, and so on, or if that applicant appears to "facilitate"
homosexuality.

 Tax Deductible Contributions

Charitable contributions to social, religious, educational, or civic groups
deductible from state income taxes could be disallowed on state returns if
that group is deemed to "encourage, promote or facilitate" homosexuality.

 Counseling

Students from high school to college who seek counseling and advice in <20>
coming
to terms with issues of sexuality would not be provided with the support <20>
and
assistance they need.  Instead, they would be taught to perceive <20>
themselves as
abnormal, wrong, unnatural and perverse.  This would likely result in low
self-esteem, self-hatred, and an even higher suicide rate among lesbian and
gay youth.

 AIDS Treatment and Care

AIDS treatment and care facilities receiving state, county, regional, or <20>
city
funding could lose their funding if they provided treatment without <20>
denouncing
homosexuality.  Further, AIDS organizations would be prime targets for shut
down as they would be perceived as "promoting" homosexuality by providing <20>
care
and treatment tailored to gay people with AIDS.

 Child Custody

During child custody battles, a court would be required to take away <20>
custody
or parental rights from any parent who is, or who is perceived to be,
homosexual (which would be defined by the state constitution as abnormal,
wrong unnatural and perverse).


WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR SCHOOLS?

Measure 9 would apply to colleges, universities and all public schools <20>
(K-12),
in Oregon.  It would require teachers at all grade levels to tell their
students that homosexuality is "abnormal, wrong, unnatural and perverse" <20>
and
that these "behaviors" should be "discouraged and avoided."  Teachers <20>
would be
required to "assist in setting a standard for Oregon's youth" that <20>
conforms to
the OCA's standard of moral behavior.

Measure 9 would require Oregon colleges, universities and public schools to
teach things that would not be taught any where else in the United States.

University professors would not be allowed to assign any text book or <20>
reading
materials that showed homosexuality in a positive light.  College-level
psychology or sociology classes could not use text books on sexuality if <20>
they
do not discourage homosexuality, even though the American Psychiatric
Association has a 19 year old position deploring discrimination against
homosexuals.

Medical schools would be required to teach students that homosexuality is
perverse "behavior," even though new medical evidence suggests that sexual
orientation is not a learned behavior, but is genetic.

Schools and, universities - including their libraries - would be required <20>
to
review books, magazines, videotapes, records, tapes, works of art, and
photographs to determine whether to ban them or censor them if they <20>
provide a
positive reference to homosexuality.  Every professor, teacher, speaker,
performer, artist, or writer who wishes to teach, speak or perform at <20>
public
school, college, or university would need to ensure officials that he or <20>
she
does not "promote, encourage or facilitate" homosexuality.


WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON PORTLAND'S CIVIL RIGHTS ORDINANCE?

The OCA's statewide initiative would overturn Portland's civil rights
ordinance.  The Portland City Council unanimously passed an ordinance on
October 3, 1991 that bans discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation
and source of income in housing, employment and public accommodations.  The
ordinance is similar to civil rights protection in more than thirty other
cities across the United States.

The decade old annual Portland Gay Pride Parade would no longer be allowed.
Gay and lesbian organizations or individuals would not be allowed to use <20>
City
facilities such as meeting rooms or parks.


WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP KEEP THIS INITIATIVE FROM PASSING IN THE NOVEMBER
ELECTION?

There are many opportunities for involvement in the No on 9 Campaign: <20>
Campaign
for a Hate Free Oregon.  We encourage you to become a part of the fight to
preserve Oregon's Constitution and to protect the rights of all citizens.

No on 9 needs volunteers in the office, in the field, and across the <20>
country.
Hosting a fundraising event, hosting or facilitating educational <20>
activities in
your workplace, or volunteering your own particular expertise -- there's <20>
room
for everyone in the No on 9 Campaign.  To find out how you can get <20>
involved,
call the No on 9 Campaign, 503-232-4501, or write to us at P.O. Box 3343,
Portland, Oregon 97208-3343.

Authorized and paid for by No on 9: The Campaign for a Hate Free Oregon  <20>
P.O.
Box 3343  Portland, Oregon
97208  (503) 232-4501

Original Message Date: 20 Sep 92  19:49:39
From: Tim Spofford on 1:105/99
To: Tom Jennings on 1:125/111
Subj: FIDCON92
^AMSGID: 1:105/99 8413cd31
 * Originally by Tim Spofford, 1:105/99
 * Originally to Richard Bash, 1:105/68
 * Originally dated 20 Sep 1992, 19:41

 * Original to: Richard Bash

cc: Chris Healy, Janet Murray, Leonard Erickson, Ken Zwaschka, Karen Hale
cc: Tim Spofford, Scott Losli, Sue Matthews

I've read your message; I've not yet read the file.

I need to put something out here now, because it's on my mind and we <20>
Oregonians might as well get used to it.

If Ballot Measure 9 passes, you can kiss a convention goodbye.  Two of the <20>
founders of Fidonet are openly gay, and one of them is also the editor of <20>
FidoNews.  He has alot of respect from alot of people (including me), and <20>
some of those people (obviously NOT me) are critical to having a <20>
successful fidocon.

I don't mean this to sound like finger-pointing at them or at anybody <20>
else. Personally, I wouldn't support any organization with which I am <20>
associated holding its convention in Oregon under Measure 9 either.  I <20>
raise the point now because it's a real consideration and you may not want <20>
to invest too much money before election day, when you will know whether <20>
the bid is doomed regardless of what you do.

I also suggest everybody set up a FIDOCON93 echoarea ASAP.  My system can <20>
act as host node, or Richard's, or who ever, but NET105 is not an <20>
appropriate forum to carry out bid committee business.