786 lines
37 KiB
Plaintext
786 lines
37 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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Tuesday, March 12, 1991 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
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Topic: Beginner's Night (and open discussion)
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet Is there anything we can help you with tonight, Joel? Hi WankerL
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:)
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JoelH4 I have a question to pose, anyone know anything about "APPLE
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3's"
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JoelH4 I have a friend with one, & little practical knowledge
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AFL Dyfet Give Joel a little breathing space there people :)....What kind of
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Apple III
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AFL Dyfet question do you have/
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Matt DTS I have one in my office. Shame I don't have a monitor (or a power
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cord, or any disks, etc.).
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WinkieJim Matt, using as a doorstop are we? :) :)
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AFL Dyfet There is an active national Apple /// users group....I would
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suggest sending
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AFL Dyfet mail to 'Lavona' to find out more about it.
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JoelH4 How much ProDOS/DOS 3.3 software will/won't work on one,
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AFL Dyfet I do not know how well the II emulation mode works off-hand.....
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WinkieJim II emulation is II+ emulation only...
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AFL Dyfet If I recall, I think it used a special pre-boot disk, which would
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mean you
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AFL Dyfet could then maybe boot ProDOS after it...however, it does not
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support 80 columns
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AFL Dyfet or any other /// stuff in emulation mode...
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WinkieJim if it'll run on a II+ it should run on the /// in emulation mode
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JoelH4 It does emulate a 2, I'm an old time 2e user
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AFA Gary J Right, it won't emulate a IIe.
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AFA Gary J (Or a Macintosh, for that matter :)
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WinkieJim I my memory serves me there is a add-on card fro the /// to allow
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it
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WinkieJim to run IIe software...but Lavona would know more...
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JoelH4 Ha Ha, but a MAC can emulate us, now
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Matt DTS Macintoshes have been "emulating" Apple IIs for many years. But
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the Apple IIe Card for the Macintosh
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Matt DTS LC is NOT "emulation". It's a full-blown Apple IIe that runs in a
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Macintosh environment.
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Matt DTS (It just doesn't have any IIe slots. :)
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WinkieJim The little brother always tries to emulate it's old and wiser
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brother :) :)
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFA Parik (there is also trackstar for ibm/amiga, and a II+ software
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emulator for ibm/amiga/st).
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JoelH4 thanks for the infomation, it will get me started Apple/// "ing"
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AFA Gary J Apple /// forever!
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AFA Gary J (oops. Old macro :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, who else has a question for tonight?
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Scott, go ahead, you have the floor now...
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DevScott I've been calling some mail order places for Orca/C and they
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DevScott tell me that it's not available due to an upgrade.
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DevScott Is this true?
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS Something like that. The Byte Works is in the middle of updating
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the ORCA/C system, and they may
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Matt DTS not be filling new orders pending the imminent upgrade. You could
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find out for sure by calling...
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Matt DTS ...the Byte Works, at (505) 898-8183 (New Mexico/Mountain time
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zone). GA.
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DevScott Thanks...supposedly it will be more expensive too :(
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AFL Dyfet GA Winkie...
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WinkieJim or Byte Works is online here too.
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AFA Gary J (Keyword BYTEWORKS)
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DevScott Done...
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess we're back to you Winkie :)
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WinkieJim Does anyone know if there is anything other than REZ that will
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convert a
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WinkieJim OMF file into a CODE resource and the CDev CODE resource?
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS Hmm...I believe that Richard Bennet's "Reslin" will do it, and
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LLRE might. GA.
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AFL Dyfet GA Jonah...
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WinkieJim Mmm I have reslin...will have to take another look at it...
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ShanoJ Ya, I've used LLRE to do it.... Can't you also use Genesys--I know
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you can
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ShanoJ Export, but I think there's also an Import menu item in the latest
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version.
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WinkieJim Genesys, doesn't seem to have a way of doing it...
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AFL Dyfet There is an upgrade for Genesys now...
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WinkieJim Well, They havn't sent me 1.2 yet so I'll have to get on
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them...they
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WinkieJim seem to keep forgetting I was a bata tester :)
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WinkieJim Maybe I didn't find enough bugs :)
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ShanoJ Ya, 1.2 can do it, I think...
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WinkieJim ga...
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess we are ready for wind...ga :)
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Windrider5 I have been looking at some sample C code (from Apple) eg. Dart
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and
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Windrider5 they use the function SaveDB() and restoreDB() quite a bit. Is
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it
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Windrider5 necessary to use these functions?
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AFL Dyfet Go ahead Dave...
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Dave Lyons Yes! You have to set and restore the 65816's Data Bank Register
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(DBR, or sometimes called just "B")
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Dave Lyons whenever you have a C function that can get called without the B
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register already set to the bank
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Dave Lyons containing your global non-array variables (the ~globals segment
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of your program).
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Dave Lyons When your C program starts up, it sets B properly, and at the "top
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level" of your code you never have
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Dave Lyons to worry about it. But when the Toolbox *calls you*, like for a
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window-draw routine, the B register
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Dave Lyons is not guaranteed to be set how your C code expects it. In cases
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like that, you have to make *sure*
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Dave Lyons you use -no- global variables anywhere in the routine, even
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indirectly by calling other functions,
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Dave Lyons or you have to use SaveDB and RestoreDB.
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Dave Lyons ga
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Dave Lyons (In some languages you have a "LongGlobals" option you can turn on
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instead.)
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Windrider5 Is this done at the beginning and end of the program
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Windrider5 or for each routine?
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Dave Lyons The START.ROOT/etc code does it at the beginning of your whole
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program--
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Dave Lyons there's just one set of globals.
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AFL Dyfet Do we have any other questions out there for tonight?
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AFL Dyfet Okay, go ahead Jonah...
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ShanoJ Okay, this weekend I wrote a loaded driver for internal modems
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(like my trusty
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ShanoJ DataLink 2400). In testing it with Joe Wankerl's Transfusion NDA,
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I ran into
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JWankerl :-)
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ShanoJ some problems. The main one goes something like this: Joe wrote
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his program to
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ShanoJ work with the default driver for EXTERNAL modems. To read
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characters, he calls
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ShanoJ DStatus, then looks at the no-wait mode bit of the statusWord. If
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it's set, he
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ShanoJ calls ReadGS on one byte of memory to get a character. He loops
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through this
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ShanoJ DStatus/ReadGS until the no-wait mode flag goes false. Now, in
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my
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ShanoJ understanding, the no-wait mode flag could be set by the
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application to
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ShanoJ whatever the programmer liked, so that the program would operate
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in the mode it
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ShanoJ wanted. However, the driver seems to be toggling it back and
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forth! Which one
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ShanoJ is right? Matt? :)
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Matt DTS What "no-wait mode flag"?
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ShanoJ In the statusWord, returned by DStatus, bit position 0x0020.
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WinkieJim ha! We finaly stumped Matt! :)
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Matt DTS Nononononononono.
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ShanoJ (Top of page 129 in the AW ref)
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Matt DTS That bit is valid for generated drivers only - if it's set,
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there's a character waiting.
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Matt DTS It does *not* represent no-wait mode, and that diagram should have
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been corrected in a recent
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JWankerl I tried to tell ya that, Jonah. :-)
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Matt DTS Technical Note (checking to see when it came out...)
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ShanoJ Shut up, Joe... :)
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AFA Gary J :)
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Matt DTS I think it will be in this month's batch, but we did talk about it
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in a conference on here earlier.
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Matt DTS You get the wait-mode status by calling GetWaitStatus, not by
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looking in the general status
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Matt DTS word. (These diagrams are all throughout GS/OS Ref. and GS/OS
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Driver Ref., and it was very difficult
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Matt DTS trying to catch the same error in all the places the diagram was
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included!). So...
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Matt DTS ...in light of this previously-hidden information, what is in fact
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the problem?
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ShanoJ (So it's Joe's fault... :)
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AFL Dyfet Strange, it's snowing and thundering...and yes, Matt, I recall the
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prev. conf
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AFL Dyfet where this had been discussed...
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ShanoJ Okay, that clears it up. My driver just sets that flag to 0, and I
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rewrite
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ShanoJ Joe's program to work properly... :)
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Matt DTS STOP!
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Dave Lyons Matt, I'm lost--he wants to know if there are any characters
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waiting. Isn't that bit in the general
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Dave Lyons status??
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Matt DTS (Oh, wait. No, never mind. go ahead. :)
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Matt DTS Dave: Yes, for generated drivers. He just thought it was a
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no-wait mode bit. Jonah didn't
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Matt DTS understand why Joe's program did what it did. (GA)
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ShanoJ Or is it what Dave said? That's the way I have it working now...
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ShanoJ So, can my loaded driver use that bit as a 'character waiting'
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bit?
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Matt DTS Yes, you can, and you're encouraged to...but programs can't expect
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all loaded character drivers
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Matt DTS to respect that bit since it wasn't defined until 5.0.
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ShanoJ (and even then... :)
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ShanoJ Okay, so I use that bit, Joe doesn't have to rewrite anything, and
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we'll let
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ShanoJ OTHER people worry about THEIR drivers not working... :) I can
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live with
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ShanoJ that. :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess Winkie is next...ga Winkie...
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WinkieJim Is there a max hight for Cdev icons, the max width is 28 but what
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about hight?
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AFL Dyfet Height...hmmm....Ga Matt...
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Matt DTS Well, Dave needs to answer this, but I believe a maximum height
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such that the icon appears square is
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Matt DTS a safe bet. Dave?
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AFL Dyfet :)
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A2GS Dave seems to be out at the moment....Hey DAVE, anyone HOME????
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:-)
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WinkieJim Earth to Dave...
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AFA Gary J He's getting more M&M's?
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Dave Lyons Oh, I'm here...
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A2GS He's here in handle but not (apparently) in mind :)
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Matt DTS (Cut him some slack, he's been working hard -- but not too much
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slack. :)
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AFA Gary J :)
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WinkieJim I get like that sometimes GS :)
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AFL Dyfet Must not have locked down his handle...
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Dave Lyons Uh, sticking with the de-facto standards
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Dave Lyons for CDev icons would be good...the Control Panel doesn't go out of
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its way to figure out how
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Dave Lyons tall the icons are, it just draws them in the list. I think most
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of them are 20, and some are shorter
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Dave Lyons Basically, if it works fine in the present Control Panel icon
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list, you should be fine.
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Dave Lyons (ga)
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AFL Dyfet Sounds like a reasonable response :)
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WinkieJim ok, thanks...
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AFL Dyfet Okay, anyone next?
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AFL Dyfet Go ahead Jonah...
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ShanoJ Okay, this is a silly one, but in the abscence of any REAL
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questions... :)
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ShanoJ How on EARTH do you manage to set the extra 8 KIND bits that APW
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can't touch
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ShanoJ when it gives the default segment a name of " ". Doug's
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OMF util
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ShanoJ don't work too well with that.... :(
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Dave Lyons (Block.Warden)
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Matt DTS Uh...won't LinkIIgs do it for you?
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ShanoJ Well, the added complication is that I've got a library that I
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link in that
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ShanoJ has all of it's code in a separate segment (called HelpLib) PLUS a
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few routines
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ShanoJ in the main source in an AuxSeg segment. Doing it with LinkIIgs
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ran into the
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ShanoJ same problem with the " " name again. (BTW, CAN you do it with
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a block
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ShanoJ editor? I tried that, too, and it didn't work... Then again, you
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never know
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ShanoJ with me... :)
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Matt DTS Who is naming the segment " "?
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ShanoJ APW gives the default segment (ie. MyProg START) a segment name of
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" ".
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Dave Lyons (I second Matt's question. Yes, you can do Anything in a block
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editor.)
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AFA Gary J Yeah, Jonah, Why not just name the " " segment to
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something.
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ShanoJ Well, I thought of that, but there are over 200 procedures, and I
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didn't want
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ShanoJ to spend the time if there was an easier way to do it... :)
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AFA Gary J OIC :)
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Matt DTS Huh? It doesn't do that to me, does it? (checking...)
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AFA Gary J (Search for "start" a zillion times, eh? :)
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ShanoJ (Then again, it would have taken half the time I've now spent
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playing around
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ShanoJ to just give that segment a name... But think of the great
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LEARNING I'm doing!
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ShanoJ Nope, that doesn't work. Nope, that doesn't either. Nor that. etc.
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:)
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AFA Gary J What are you trying to set it to? (The KIND field, that is)
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ShanoJ Now, if there were a search for Start but not Start AuxCode,
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then we'd be
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ShanoJ in business... :)
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Matt DTS Hmm...it just says "Segment name :", so I can't tell how many
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blanks there are. I'll try redirecting
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Matt DTS to a file...
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JWankerl There should be 10 blanks, I believe.
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JWankerl (spaces, blanks... same difference)
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ShanoJ (Must be nice to have another computer to play with while you're
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online... :)
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Matt DTS Ten spaces, sure enough. Well, that bites.
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JWankerl Hey, I was right! HA HA!
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ShanoJ <-- finally found a real problem!! :)
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Matt DTS Jonah: What happens if you use the option in LinkIIgs: -a "
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"="main"?
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AFL Dyfet GA A2...
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A2GS Thanx....First of all, do the new Apple printers only except "true
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type" for
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A2GS printing? (I have a followup Q based on the answer to this one)
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AFL Dyfet That's a little more in the scope of AHW than here :)....GA Winkie
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AFTER Matt..
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Matt DTS Oh, we're on the new printers: !
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WinkieJim StyleWriter is described as 'Designed for Macintosh only'
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A2GS That's how Apple describe everything
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AFA Gary J (boo)
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WinkieJim LaserWriter LS is described as 'Not Apple II compatible at this
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time'
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Matt DTS Uh...!
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A2GS :-)
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WinkieJim so I'd guess there is hope for the LS
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WinkieJim ga only my opinon...
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Pixies yeah but that's how apple labels its customers too.. "not apple II
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compatible
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Pixies at this time"
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A2GS Is the Stylewriter the Inkjet, $599 printer?
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Matt DTS Now, for printers:
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Matt DTS StyleWriter and Personal LaserWriter LS (PLLS) were clearly
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designed for the broader Mac market, but..
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A2GS there's a BUT
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Matt DTS ...perhaps could be made to work on an Apple II. However, it will
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not be something a user can do.
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Matt DTS Explanation:
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Matt DTS StyleWriter communicates only at 57,600 baud and does not have any
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character-based firmware built-in.
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Matt DTS In other words, the standard Apple II method of sending "a"
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through the printer port will not work
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Matt DTS with StyleWriter - it needs more hardware to do that. It only
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knows how to print dots, which is why
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Matt DTS it's such a good match for TrueType.
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A2GS oh...
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Matt DTS The PLLS communicates at about 909,000 baud, externally clocked,
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and expects all images coming
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Matt DTS in to be compressed with a compression algorithm that it
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decompresses in *hardware*. It has no
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Matt DTS PostScript or networking support, making it in the same class as
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the SC LaserWriters (requires mucho
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Matt DTS imaging and big communications to print). So, that's the story.
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GA.
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A2GS I have a second Q...unrelated to the previous...
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Pixies now if i could run AOL at that speed i'd be a shoe in at
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trivia..
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WinkieJim Pixies, didn't you get your 909,0000 baud upgrade? :)
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Pixies missed it.
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A2GS Just out of Curiosity....The GS cannot be used as a Server, right?
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Why not?
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WinkieJim a2Gs, no server software for GS
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JWankerl A2GS: It can be used... just wait ;-)
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A2GS I know....but are there any (technical reasons), why not?
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Matt DTS A2GS -- because we chose not to write server software for it,
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mostly.
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JWankerl Yah - Apple's technical reason #1 - "The Apple IIGS is too slow"
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A2GS That's what I thought...:-(
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Matt DTS Joe, don't put words in our mouth. The IIgs is kind of slow, but
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it could be done with hardware.
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Matt DTS Mostly, a server is a very, very complicated and secure program
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that takes a while to bullet-proof,
|
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Matt DTS and after AppleShare 2.0 they chose not to duplicate that effort
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for another platform. GA.
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A2GS So why not do it....Apple can't say that there isn't a market for
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it....
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A2GS I know of PLENTY of schools AND small businesses (believe it or
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not) who would
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A2GS love to use a GS as a Server.
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WinkieJim A2GS, I'd rather put the GS to real use and let the mac sit in the
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corner :)
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AFA Gary J (BUT, you're still forced to buy the mac, Winkie)
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A2GS True...but I'd like to avoid the Mac as much as possible....the
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more people
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A2GS see of what the Mac can do and of the FEW things the GS can't
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do...only hurts
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A2GS the GS.
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Matt DTS A2GS: We knew people would want it, but it's a significant
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development effort we chose not to do.
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Matt DTS Businesses have to make those decisions sometimes. GA.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess Pixies is next...go ahead :)....
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Pixies could someone explain the use of a disassembler.. e.g. can i take
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a commercial
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Pixies program or something online, disassemble it and examine how it is
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linked
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Pixies together.. I have a pascal basis, so would that be of any use??
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Pixies I guess if Orca's offering half price programs w/ a free Pascal
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upgrade i can
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Pixies afford a disassembler for $25
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AFA Gary J Ok, Jonah, are you answering Pixies? GA
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ShanoJ Pixies: Well, with a disasm, you can load in ANY program (pretty
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much--the FTA
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ShanoJ ones are often an exception) and see the code that makes it work.
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HOWEVER, the
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ShanoJ code will be displayed in Assembly, which looks NOTHING like
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Pascal. If you
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ShanoJ ONLY know Pascal, then ORCA/Diss isn't going to be of much use to
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you.
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JWankerl Yah, you gotta be kind of knowledgable about assembly to figure
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out how Pascal
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JWankerl is generating the code.
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Pixies ok, thanks.. well i'll have to see whatelse byteworks is
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offering..
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AFA Gary J Also, disassemblers create an actual source file. You have to be
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somewhat
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AFA Gary J knowledgeable about assembly in order to make a successful
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disassembly as well.
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AFA Gary J (i.e. you have to know when something looks like data, and when
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it looks like
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Pixies yeah, definately not for me..
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AFA Gary J code, and that sort of thing). If you're just looking to explore
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some code,
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AFA Gary J then you can use the monitor, or a more sophisticated program
|
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(nudge Dave :)
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AFA Gary J like Nifty List to list through a program that's loaded into
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memory, and see
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AFA Gary J what it's made of.
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WinkieJim Gee, now Gary is doing Dave's comercials :) :)
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AFA Gary J :)
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Dave Lyons :)
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Pixies is nifty list on AOL.. or is it commercial?
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AFA Gary J Nifty List is shareware, on AOL
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Dave Lyons Shareware, in ADV and AUT libraries.
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WinkieJim GAry, if I give you a buck, will you promote Super Info?
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AFA Gary J :)
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A2GS It's commercially available on AOL :-)
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Pixies hmm. maybe i'll check it out..
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AFA Gary J There are other utilities for looking at how programs are
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"built", such as
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AFA Gary J DUMPOBJ, and such.
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ShanoJ NiftyList is second only to GSBug (ORCA/Diss is third... :)
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A2GS GSBug is GREAT
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AFA Gary J (I think I'd put GSBug as a REAL CLOSE second to Nifty List, in
|
|
my book :)
|
|
Matt DTS Yeah, Gary, but how much coding do you do? :)
|
|
AFA Gary J I do a fair share of coding, but I use Nifty List to get a clear
|
|
picture of
|
|
AFA Gary J where I'm at prior to finishing things off with GSBug :)
|
|
A2GS How about putting them both First and Orca/Diss second?
|
|
JWankerl As soon as GSBug does imbedded names in object code it'll be
|
|
better than NL.
|
|
JWankerl (for tracking down bugs, that is)
|
|
Dave Lyons Gee Joe, then I guess I'll have to not put that in. :-) :-)
|
|
Dave Lyons (Don't worry, yeah, GSBug will support imbedded names someday.)
|
|
ShanoJ (Naw, I need to step through the code to see how it works
|
|
sometimes... )
|
|
A2GS Or how about making them all First and the GS' monitor second...
|
|
A2GS or how about....you get the point
|
|
JWankerl Dave: You'd better!!!! ;-)
|
|
Pixies ok, thanks.. for $10 i think i'll check it out..:)
|
|
|
|
Pixies has anyone here seen the new pascal upgrade? like a pre-release
|
|
version??
|
|
JWankerl Yah, we got ahold of the newest ORCA/Pascal - it should be
|
|
shipping to
|
|
JWankerl registered users any week now.
|
|
Pixies what's your opinion of the new version JW
|
|
JWankerl Pixies: I really haven't used it yet, so I can't say. Sorry.
|
|
Pixies do you know if the char bug is fixed.. that creates a big problem
|
|
for most
|
|
Pixies of the programs i write for pascal class..
|
|
JWankerl Pixies: I really dunno about it.
|
|
|
|
A2GS BTW Anyone know what the story is on the Animation
|
|
Toolset??????????
|
|
Matt DTS A2GS: You can try asking a question and we can try answering
|
|
it..............
|
|
A2GS When will it be available?
|
|
AFA Gary J :)
|
|
A2GS How's that?
|
|
ShanoJ Or even WILL it be available?
|
|
A2GS (2 questions :)
|
|
Matt DTS Not for a while. Development was not as advanced as the
|
|
KansasFest presentation implied. (Sorry.)
|
|
A2GS ok....I heard a rumor about Apple having a "Game Evanglist"...any
|
|
truth to it?
|
|
A2GS (that you know of)
|
|
Matt DTS Plans call for its inclusion in future system software, but I
|
|
don't know about any availability
|
|
Matt DTS before that. Evangelism (read traditional, Mac evangelism) now
|
|
does have a game evangelist, I believe
|
|
Matt DTS it is Craig Fryar.
|
|
A2GS Any idea what he's Evanglising???
|
|
A2GS other then the Mac?
|
|
Matt DTS Not that I can talk about, sorry. (And this is MACINTOSH
|
|
Evangelism - I said that!)
|
|
A2GS oh...sorry
|
|
Matt DTS What do you expect a Mac evangelist to evangelize?
|
|
AFA Gary J Certainly not Apple II's :(
|
|
Matt DTS Nope...that's Rob Barnes's job. :)
|
|
A2GS :)
|
|
A2GS Like the GS is just rolling in Games :)
|
|
A2GS :(
|
|
AFA Gary J It does have some good ones, though.
|
|
A2GS Yeah...but it sure could use a heck of a lot more.....We don't
|
|
even have
|
|
A2GS SimCity....it's ridiculous...Apple even used that fact (or was it
|
|
SimEarth)
|
|
A2GS in there latest cruddy ad...knocking the II in InCider.
|
|
JWankerl Yah, like Rastan -- too bad it can't be found anymore.
|
|
AFA Gary J Yeah, exactly the title on my mind, JWankerl
|
|
ShanoJ How long did Rastan sell for? Two months or something? Jeez...
|
|
:(
|
|
A2GS Yeah.....Isn't anyone on the Apple II side wondering why there
|
|
isn't an
|
|
A2GS Apple II Games Eavnglist????
|
|
Matt DTS A2GS: No. We've just gotten an Apple II evangelist since the
|
|
first of the year.
|
|
Matt DTS Given that we have exactly one evangelist, hiring a second one
|
|
just for games seems a bit unwarranted.
|
|
A2GS What does one have to do with other?
|
|
A2GS Apple seems to think Games are important otherwise they wouldn't
|
|
have opened
|
|
A2GS thew position for a guy in the Mac section.
|
|
Matt DTS A2GS: Perhaps, but game developers have shrunk from the Mac even
|
|
more than from the Apple II in
|
|
Matt DTS recent years. The few out there have been good, but not that many
|
|
have been written.
|
|
A2GS If that's the case how come the software store I work at just
|
|
expanded the
|
|
A2GS Games section for the Mac...while absolutely NOTHING new has come
|
|
out for
|
|
A2GS the GS in months.
|
|
Matt DTS The IIgs software market is currently more depressed than the Mac
|
|
software market, and hopefully
|
|
Matt DTS our evangelist will be able to do something about it. But
|
|
considering all the market segments out
|
|
Matt DTS there (education, consumer, productivity, utility, multimedia,
|
|
etc.) I personally rate games a little
|
|
Matt DTS lower on the totem pole than you do.
|
|
JWankerl Ask the software publishers, A2GS... I really dunno.
|
|
A2GS There are FAR fewer games being written for the GS then for the
|
|
Mac....and
|
|
A2GS that's a FACT.
|
|
A2GS The GS is doing GREAT in education and productivity is kind of
|
|
weak on the GS
|
|
A2GS but at least still exists and continues to enjoy new programs
|
|
while Games and
|
|
A2GS Music software are absolutely NILL on the GS.
|
|
A2GS I hope the II Evanglist is successful....a lot rides on him.
|
|
Matt DTS And if we can make the Apple II a bigger market force, those
|
|
developers who didn't make any money
|
|
Matt DTS last time they tried will probably come back. But we're not going
|
|
to impress any big publishes by
|
|
Matt DTS calling around and saying "Write more games."
|
|
A2GS No....but you won't impress ANYBODY if you don't call at all.
|
|
Matt DTS We impress them with "We're doing this to make the Apple IIgs a
|
|
good-selling computer platform that
|
|
Matt DTS lots of people buy and use, and golly, look at this game
|
|
capability and unexplored market segment..."
|
|
A2GS The fact is....I don't know of many parents who buy GS's for there
|
|
kids who
|
|
A2GS don't take into account how much software there is for the machine
|
|
(especially
|
|
A2GS Game software) and if only a Teensy Tiny percent of all the
|
|
software on the
|
|
A2GS GS is games then something is VERY worng....the Fact is Games
|
|
SHOULD (in a
|
|
A2GS healthy machines market) be something like 30%-40% of all the
|
|
software
|
|
A2GS available for the machine.
|
|
Matt DTS A2GS: Maybe in terms of retail store shelf space, but not in
|
|
terms of sales or available software.
|
|
Matt DTS No argument there should be more, but the way to make more is not
|
|
to promote the IIgs as a "game
|
|
Matt DTS machine." It's to move it in quantity and then let people
|
|
discover the untapped game potential.
|
|
A2GS AGREED
|
|
AFA Gary J I do agree that games can play a big part in attracting buyers in
|
|
the mythical
|
|
AFA Gary J "home market", especially when kids are in the formula)
|
|
Matt DTS (Maybe with some gentle nudging...)
|
|
AFA Gary J (And even when it's just Dad making the decision)
|
|
A2GS How about some outright slugging :)
|
|
A2GS EA is FINALLY doing Chuck Yeager for the PC....took them long
|
|
enough :)
|
|
ShanoJ For the PC? What's it on now?
|
|
A2GS The II (or at least it used to be)
|
|
A2GS I don't think my store is even able to get it anymore.
|
|
|
|
AFA Gary J I have a question. Does anyone know if using the hardware
|
|
registers DIRECTLY
|
|
AFA Gary J for accessing the serial port on a IIGS will SIGNIFICANTLY speed
|
|
up modem
|
|
AFA Gary J access over what the firmware will do?
|
|
A2GS Probably not...although I don't know that for a fact.
|
|
AFA Gary J (Firmware (ugh) = go into emulation mode, etc.)
|
|
Matt DTS Hmm...the firmware will go 19,200 baud, so I don't think so.
|
|
AFA Gary J I'm not sure if my bottlekneck is due to the modem through-put or
|
|
just
|
|
AFA Gary J getting the characters from the modem to my program.
|
|
AFA Gary J (It slows down the playability of my game, significantly)
|
|
AFA Gary J :)
|
|
A2GS That's what Makes "Prodigy" such a dream to use....the FAST screen
|
|
updates :)
|
|
AFA Gary J I'll have to do some testing to see if my program is waiting for
|
|
data at the
|
|
AFA Gary J modem port, or not.
|
|
|
|
ShanoJ Oh, I've got one--is it the firmware on the SSC that interprets
|
|
the commands
|
|
ShanoJ (ie. Ctrl-A 8B) or will writing to the registers on the card do it
|
|
(it almost
|
|
ShanoJ has to be the former, but I just wanna check.)
|
|
AFA Gary J Jonah: It's the firmware. (There's registers to do all the
|
|
command stuff)
|
|
ShanoJ Ya, that's what I thought.... Thanks Gary.
|
|
|
|
ShanoJ Matt: I have to call modem (ie. SSC) firmware with FWEntry, right?
|
|
(or write
|
|
ShanoJ my own routine to do it).
|
|
AFA Gary J Firmware reference details a way to call firmware
|
|
AFA Gary J (i.e. going into emulation, etc.)
|
|
Matt DTS We encourage you not to call $CnXX entries with FWEntry. If you
|
|
can use the GS/OS generated driver,
|
|
Matt DTS please do.
|
|
ShanoJ Right, that's what I thought (toldya, Joe... Jeez, trying to
|
|
confuse me...:)
|
|
|
|
Matt DTS There are two, count them two, count them again two kinds of
|
|
drivers --
|
|
Matt DTS character drivers and block drivers. That's all GS/OS has.
|
|
JWankerl Yes, but the device ID is A (character) and not 9 (modem) (I
|
|
think A is char)
|
|
ShanoJ Ya, but the generated driver for an internal modem has a device ID
|
|
of $0016
|
|
JWankerl okay, so it's 16... I was wrong.
|
|
ShanoJ (character device driver, generic) not $0009 (serial modem).
|
|
ShanoJ So if you're writing a modem program, and looking for a modem
|
|
driver, you don't
|
|
ShanoJ find it! :(
|
|
Matt DTS That's because the generation routines can't tell if it's a modem
|
|
or just some generic character
|
|
Matt DTS device. Not enough information to identify it.
|
|
GSPlusDiz I think you mean 'looking for a modem DEVICE'
|
|
A2GS SUGGESTION: Give a 2 hour detailed conference at the K-Fest on
|
|
Drivers,
|
|
A2GS complete with hand outs and source code...especially for Printer
|
|
and Modem
|
|
A2GS Drivers.
|
|
ShanoJ Driver, device; same difference... :)
|
|
GSPlusDiz Sorta :)
|
|
Matt DTS A2GS: We did, last year. :)
|
|
A2GS I know I was there :)
|
|
Matt DTS We didn't give out sample character driver source, but we held the
|
|
session.
|
|
A2GS But I'm still VERY lost on the whole thing :(
|
|
Matt DTS And it's hard to do that session, because there are about 5
|
|
different kinds of drivers, and everyone
|
|
Matt DTS thinks the kind they're interested in is "GS/OS drivers". ("
|
|
ShanoJ So what does that leave us doing, Matt? Should the modem prog look
|
|
for a
|
|
Matt DTS ("Well, I booted GS/OS, so I want a GS/OS Printer Driver for my
|
|
LaserJet.")
|
|
ShanoJ "Character device driver (generic)" as well as a serial modem?
|
|
GSPlusDiz Well then, how about a detailed series of articles on drivers in
|
|
GS+?
|
|
A2GS There's an Idea....I just don't wanna have to wait 6 month's (3
|
|
issues) till
|
|
A2GS I have all the necessary info.
|
|
GSPlusDiz Better than waiting for 5 KFests!
|
|
A2GS True...but one detailed K-Fest would ALSO be very productive.
|
|
AFA Gary J I'd say that it should use the serial modem if it finds it
|
|
(first), and then
|
|
AFA Gary J go to the generic if it has to.
|
|
Matt DTS If you find more than one character device the user might want to
|
|
use, why not let them choose?
|
|
AFA Gary J (But what Matt said is better :)
|
|
JWankerl Well the thing is that the gs modem port automagically buffers its
|
|
data but
|
|
JWankerl the character drivers don't.
|
|
A2GS automagically....nice typo :) (if it is a typo :)
|
|
AFA Gary J Automatically?
|
|
AFA Gary J Does the driver set it to do it automatically, or is it derived
|
|
from the port
|
|
AFA Gary J setting in the control panel?
|
|
JWankerl automagically
|
|
GSPlusDiz It's not a typo!
|
|
Matt DTS No, no it doesn't - not unless the user automagically checked
|
|
"Buffering: Yes" in the
|
|
Matt DTS Control Panel...
|
|
JWankerl Well I turn it on when I start up if it's on or not. (So I cheat
|
|
a bit :-)
|
|
AFA Gary J (Matt answered, thanks :)
|
|
AFA Gary J That's not automatic, then :)
|
|
AFA Gary J (Or even Automagic)
|
|
Matt DTS And it's not going to solve your problems with Jonah's driver,
|
|
either.
|
|
ShanoJ Uggh... Looks like my driver wasn't as necessary as I thought...
|
|
:(
|
|
AFA Gary J :)
|
|
JWankerl Well what should I do, Matt?
|
|
Matt DTS Well...I can't answer that until you ask a more specific
|
|
question.
|
|
Matt DTS (You guys understand now why we don't like doing phone support?
|
|
:)
|
|
GSPlusDiz Actually, this WOULD be easier over the phone...
|
|
GSPlusDiz Voice that is!
|
|
JWankerl Well okay - how do I buffer the input of character devices?
|
|
ShanoJ What SPECIFICALLY should Joe do, Matt? :)
|
|
ShanoJ ...or at least faster....
|
|
AFA Gary J Matt, you mean like, "What's wrong with my program???!!
|
|
GSPlusDiz ;)
|
|
Matt DTS Easier for you guys, maybe, but not for the guy trying to answer
|
|
the questions correctly and
|
|
Matt DTS stay polite all at the same time! (I have no tact, remember?)
|
|
JWankerl Is there a way to make the driver call a routine whenever it gets
|
|
a character?
|
|
Matt DTS Well...ideally, a given driver won't lose characters if you don't
|
|
poll it all the time.
|
|
Matt DTS Ideally it queues the characters that come in until you send it a
|
|
Driver_Flush command to empty the
|
|
Matt DTS input/output buffers.
|
|
Matt DTS If it won't do that, you the application may just be out of luck.
|
|
:(
|
|
JWankerl What do you mean by don't poll it all the time? Not check for
|
|
characters?
|
|
Matt DTS Yes.
|
|
JWankerl Well then how am I supposed to know if there is a character
|
|
waiting or not?
|
|
GSPlusDiz Apparently you cant...
|
|
Matt DTS You're missing a point somewhere, Joe.
|
|
JWankerl I think so, too.
|
|
Matt DTS Ideally:
|
|
Matt DTS If you don't poll for characters, the driver queues them up until
|
|
you're ready for them.
|
|
GSPlusDiz I think I have it!
|
|
Matt DTS So...for a loaded driver, all you have to do is read in no-wait
|
|
mode and get the character (or check
|
|
Matt DTS the bit for generated drivers). That way you don't have to poll
|
|
constantly to avoid losing characters
|
|
Matt DTS Make sense?
|
|
JWankerl Hmmmm... okay, so I make the DStatus call to see if there is a
|
|
character
|
|
JWankerl waiting and then read it if there is one?
|
|
Matt DTS Yes, for generated drivers.
|
|
Matt DTS For loaded drivers, try to put it into no-wait mode and then just
|
|
read to get the character. If there
|
|
Matt DTS is no character waiting, it will return immediately with a
|
|
transfer_count of zero.
|
|
JWankerl But I lose characters that way.... they're not buffered using an
|
|
internal
|
|
JWankerl modem.
|
|
AFA Gary J They are if you set it up to do it.
|
|
JWankerl How do I set it up to do it, Gary?
|
|
AFA Gary J You have to enable interrupts.
|
|
AFA Gary J There's a sample on how to do this in our library, I think. It
|
|
was Guy Rice's
|
|
AFA Gary J modem CDA (the name slips my mind). He does this for a SSC, I
|
|
believe.
|
|
ShanoJ But he's not using a driver, Gary...
|
|
AFA Gary J Ooops, oh yeah. Sorry.
|
|
Matt DTS No...they are buffered if the loaded internal modem driver buffers
|
|
them!
|
|
Matt DTS (If they're generated drivers, you check the bit.)
|
|
JWankerl So I need a driver that buffers the data, right?
|
|
AFA Gary J Very true.
|
|
Matt DTS Joe: Basically, yes!
|
|
ShanoJ So, should I keep working on my driver, guys?!
|
|
JWankerl ...and I'm back around to needing a driver. :-)
|
|
JWankerl Yep, Jonah.
|
|
WildSwan Anybody mind if I ask a quick question (definitely off the
|
|
topic?)
|
|
Matt DTS Swan: You can try, but no promises.
|
|
ShanoJ Any other votes? :)
|
|
AFA Gary J GA, WildSwan (we're all off topic)
|
|
WildSwan Well anyway: I'm getting back into programming the toolbox/IIgs
|
|
and was
|
|
WildSwan wondering about this APDA development tools... anybody know about
|
|
them?
|
|
AFA Gary J What about them?
|
|
Matt DTS Swan: APDA sells several dozen Apple II development tools.
|
|
You'll have to be more specific.
|
|
WildSwan For instance, I want to use resources, but what do I need to
|
|
A:design them
|
|
WildSwan and B: link them into the executable code
|
|
WildSwan I've read about a linker LinkIIgs and Rez???
|
|
Matt DTS Swan: You'd probably be better off with a tool like Genesys if
|
|
you don't know much about resources.
|
|
WildSwan I'm still working off of just Orca/C and the stuff that came with
|
|
that
|
|
ShanoJ Swan: resources aren't linked into the code, they're attached to
|
|
it. If you're
|
|
ShanoJ new to this stuff, grab the new TB Ref and read about them (the
|
|
tech notes are
|
|
ShanoJ good place for info, too...)
|
|
WildSwan (Sorry don't know all the technical terms, you'll have to excuse
|
|
me,
|
|
WildSwan programming the IBM too long :) )
|
|
AFA Gary J You've made a good switch :)
|
|
ShanoJ As for creating them, your best bet is Genesys, which is a
|
|
commercial program
|
|
ShanoJ from SSSi. You can also use the APDA tool Rez, or some of the
|
|
shareware
|
|
ShanoJ resource editors in the ADV libraray.
|
|
WildSwan I'm going to buy the TB refs over Spring Break and have slowing
|
|
been downloadin
|
|
WildSwan the tech notes
|
|
WildSwan Yeah, I saw that-- what exactly comes with that?
|
|
WildSwan Are they good resource editors, Jonah (by the way, like your
|
|
programs :) )
|
|
AFA Gary J ORCA has a resource editor too, Design Master.
|
|
ShanoJ Well, they're not in the same league as Genesys (and Design
|
|
Master). These two
|
|
ShanoJ programs allow you to DRAW your interface elements on the screen,
|
|
then save
|