485 lines
22 KiB
Plaintext
485 lines
22 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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Tuesday, November 13, 1990 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
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Topic: Operating Systems
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess we had better get started...contrary to popular
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rumor, we are
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AFL Dyfet NOT discussing plan 9 tonight :)...Instead, we will be discussing
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Apple II
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AFL Dyfet operating systems (in particular System 5.0.3, no doubt). I see
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that Scott has
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AFL Dyfet the floor now...GA Scott...
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AFL Scott Is there anywhere documented the special text sequences to make
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things
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AFL Scott like bold text in resource strings? I know.. it's off topic!:)
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AFL Dyfet (oops :)...GA Jonah...
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ShanoJ What exactly do you mean, Scott? For likea statText control? There
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you'd just
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ShanoJ use the codes in the LETextBox section of the LE chapter...
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ShanoJ (also there are nifty resource equates for those that come with
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Rez... :)
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AFL Scott Yeah, StatText... Ok... Thanks... I didn't think to look in the
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lineEdit docs for Control Manager
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AFL Scott stuff...:) Thanks!:)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Jonah, your next...GA...
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ShanoJ My NeXT? Where?! :)
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ShanoJ Okay, my qestion (especially for Dave): I need to get the mouse's
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loaction from
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ShanoJ an interrupt. Is there any good way to do this? In the ROM 01
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machines there
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ShanoJ are screen holes at $E0047C and $E0057C or some such that have the
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mouse
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ShanoJ loaction as long as the mouse has been initialized.... These don't
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work on the
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ShanoJ ROM 03, however... GetMouse only works id the DeskManager is
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started, ReadMouse
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ShanoJ makes the normal mouse operations loose data (menus will stay
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pulled down even
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ShanoJ after you let go of the button sometimes, etc.), and that's all
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the way's I can
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ShanoJ think of! Any hints? Is there any official Apple way to do
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this?!
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AFL Dyfet I see we are drifting from topic a little early here :)....If we
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can keep to
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AFL Dyfet the topic for for the early part of this conf, please...As to your
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question,
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AFL Dyfet Jonah, I do not have a suggestion off-hand, however, if you would
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be willing
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AFL Dyfet to post it into a folder, maybe we could get some feedback for you
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there....
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Marty, GA, you have the floor now...
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AFL Marty I guess my question is rather unique (it pertains to tonight's
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topic :)...
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A2Evanglst Topic Police!!!!
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A2Evanglst ;)
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AFL Marty One or two members have reported problems in printing with
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the...
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AFL Marty AppleWorks GS Page Layout module under 5.0.3 and the new
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ImageWriter II
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AFL Marty printer driver...
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AFL Marty Specifically, they report that AWGS "locks up" and requires
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rebooting...
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AFL Marty yet the same document prints without incident under 5.0.2...
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AFL Marty Could this be attributed to additional memory requirements of
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5.0.3
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AFL Marty and/or the printer driver?
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AFL Dyfet The new driver does use additional memory for buffering. Are any
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of these
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AFL Dyfet users on 'marginal' memory for AWGS already?
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AFL Marty You could say that. Both members have 1.25 meg machines.
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AFL Marty Apparently my guess was correct. I will post an appropriate
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reply.
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AFL Marty Thanks.
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AFL Marty (done)
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AFL Dyfet I do not know how much additional memory it uses offhand, but if
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either Matt or
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AFL Dyfet Dave know (*hint*)...
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PoloPlayer What can you do on 5.0.3 that you can't do on the others besides
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rename system
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PoloPlayer Disk
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons ACE, the Audio Compression and Expansion tools, expand
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Dave Lyons sound about twice as fast as they used to.
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Dave Lyons There is a new ImageWriter LQ printer driver that takes advantage
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of
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Dave Lyons its higher resolution. The ImageWriter II driver is about 3 times
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as fast as the old one.
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Dave Lyons Standard File has a new look--instead of a Disk button you get a
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Volumes button that shows you
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Dave Lyons a list of all your volumes, so you can pick one straight away
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instead of tabbing through them
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Dave Lyons one at a time.
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PoloPlayer oh yes, I noticed that! Cool!
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Dave Lyons There are a fair number of bug fixes, some of which
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PoloPlayer GReat!
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Dave Lyons are obvious and some of which aren't.
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PoloPlayer That is pretty neat!
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Dave Lyons There are major things fixed in both Text Edit (you can edit more
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than 4K of text without it doing
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Dave Lyons bad things now) and the Resource Manager (it doesn't get confused
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on return from ProDOS 8,
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Dave Lyons and it correctly handles resizing resources in a file, which
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should help immensely for things
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Dave Lyons like Genesys and TML Pascal II.)
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Dave Lyons ga
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PoloPlayer whoa! There are a lot of newies!
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AFL Dyfet GA Gibber...
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A2Evanglst Unlike Mac System software... Apple doesn't have to update it
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every week so it will work ;)
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A2Evanglst :::End of Snide comments ;)
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PoloPlayer Hmmm, is there a file I can d/l to read all the updates?
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AFA Gary J You can download last weeks conference log, or this one when it
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gets put up :)
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons Polo, the release notes will *eventually* be available from
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Dave Lyons APDA, along with the disks, but so far APDA doesn't have them.
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I'm sure somebody will post the
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Dave Lyons APDA order number in Let's Discuss when it becomes available.
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ga
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PoloPlayer Ok...
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AFL Dyfet GA Scott...
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AFL Scott Is there a document available that tells about the new tool
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call(s) and mods to the toolsets so we
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AFL Scott may use them?
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS All Apple Partners and Associates are being mailed the release
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notes and documentation for the one new
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Matt DTS call, ConvSeconds. <GA>
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AFL Scott OK, thanks, Matt!:)
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AFL Scott I'm done...:)
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AFA JoeyS Dave: Will an update to NiftyList document anything new in
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5.0.3?
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AFL Dyfet Perhaps that one new call :)
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons Next time I do an upload it will
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Dave Lyons have ConvSeconds in there, sure (and whatever small fixes
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Dave Lyons I've discovered in the meantime, as usual). ga
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Booger, you have the floor now...
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BOOGERB using appleworks 3.0 with the timeout applications on a hard drive
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Iam having
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BOOGERB trouble assesing the timeout application with system 5.03 they
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worked fine
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BOOGERB with system 5.02 , the only way to use them is to put in the disk
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and go from
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BOOGERB there.
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AFL Dyfet GA Marty...
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AFL Marty I use AppleWorks with TimeOut under 5.0.3 without any problems at
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all...
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AFL Marty make sure you have the current version of TimeOut (3.01) as well
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as current
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AFL Marty versions of your TimeOut applciations.
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AFL Marty done
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BOOGERB everytime I try to get the timeout applications they can't be
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found off the
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BOOGERB hard drive but will fine them off the disk.
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AFL Marty Aha... you need to reinstall TimeOut...
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BOOGERB these are timeout applications for 3.0
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AFL Marty and tell TimeOut the pathname to your To applications.
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AFL Marty I'll send you EMail on it.
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AFL Marty done
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BOOGERB the only thing I changed on the hard drive was the operating
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system
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Tap...
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AFC TAP ok, I was just going to ask if your path had changed after the
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5.03 install
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AFC TAP as TimeOut hard codes the path to the applications in the
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aplwworks.system file
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AFC TAP if you havea block editor you may wish to check it... or just
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re-install
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AFC TAP <done>
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BOOGERB I don't think so
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GSP1 You also want to be sure that TO.UTILITIES and installation come
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from the same
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GSP1 disk.
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BOOGERB I am using a vulcan and copied from the disk with the t/o
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applications to the
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BOOGERB hard drive
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AFL Marty Read my Email BoogerB. Copying from the floppy is what's causing
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your problem.
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BOOGERB ok marty thanks I will try what you are suggesting thanks again
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AFL Marty That's why I get the big bucks. :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, in that case...let's get to the next Q...GA Ace...
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DangardAce Oh goody.. now for some sweeping, off-tangent, and ludicrous
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questions :)
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DangardAce Firstly, I know this is a variable, but what is the minimum amount
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of
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DangardAce memory overhead needed for page rendering in the new IW2 driver.
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Does
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DangardAce the rendering clobber anything not spoken for? I guess maybe.. I
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would
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DangardAce imagine that for text itd be different from pictures..
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt (Was waiting for this comment earlier :)...
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Matt DTS Just a sec...
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Matt DTS OK. The toolbox documentation says not to call the printing
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routines unless you have a 10K block
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Matt DTS available, so any printer driver is justified in not working if at
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least 10K contiguous isn't
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Matt DTS available. The new IW and IW LQ drivers attempt to spool to disk
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if they can't get enough memory.
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Matt DTS Text is not all that different than graphics since all are drawn
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by QuickDraw. For more information
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Matt DTS on how printer drivers work, there's a fabulously well-written
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article on the subject in _develop_ #4.
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Matt DTS <grin> GA
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HeadCase Matt you're so modest
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AFL Dyfet Thanks Matt....
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DangardAce (Gee I wonder who wrote that article :)
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DangardAce Where is the disk spooling piped to? Somewhere on the boot
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volume?
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DangardAce Also, to Dave, are there any planned updates for DIcED?
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DangardAce And uh, just one more thing, this isn't 5.03 specific, but is
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there a
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DangardAce theoretical maximum to how many icons you can have in memory?
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DangardAce Like, will Finder only accept the first 128 icons it encounters
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(assuming
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DangardAce there's enough free mem to hold them all)
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Mac Hater hmm, sounds like a question for a Finder engineer.
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFL Dyfet Yes, it does...a chance for a new Finder person to prove himself
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:)]
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DangardAce And, uh, one other thing, is the Laserwriter GS driver still
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using
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DangardAce Imagewriter emulation to get the job done or are there any
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PostScript
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DangardAce primitives lurking in there, and uh, when do we get to see the
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Animation and
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DangardAce Shrinkit Toolsets.. just imagine being able to pack/unpack
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animations on
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DangardAce the fly.. Dragon's Lair startanims anyone? GA
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AFL Marty (this guy must be on a sugar rush :)
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons There will be updates
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Dave Lyons to DIcEd -sometime-, but I don't have a schedule. I have a
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partly-done DIcEd 2.0 that I've been
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Dave Lyons working on.
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DangardAce !- are you aware that DicED doesn't exactly behave menu wise with
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5.02+..
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Dave Lyons The Finder and DIcEd do not impose any special limits on the
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number of icons
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Dave Lyons you can have. You can have as many as you can fit in memory.
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Dave Lyons The LaserWriter driver was never using ImageWriter emulation--
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Dave Lyons ImageWriter emulation is still *available* for
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Dave Lyons use by applications that only know how to shove text out to a slot
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(for example, most ProDOS 8
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Dave Lyons applications). The Print Manager driver for the LaserWriter is
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actually sending PostScript(tm)
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Dave Lyons stuff out to the LW in response to QuickDraw commands.
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Dave Lyons (done)
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AFL Dyfet Dave, seems you didn't leave anything for Matt :)
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ShrinkIt unless someone at apple pays me a ton-o-bucks (not likely), there
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is not much possibility that there
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ShrinkIt will be a shrinkit toolset (and I don't think they want one,
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either)
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AFL Dyfet GA GSP1...
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GSP1 I wonder if the problem with the PRODOS 16 version of AOL software
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and...
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GSP1 GS/OS 5.03 will solve the download lockup that accurred in 5.02?
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Matt DTS Under 5.0.3, if you're using a serial CARD (NOT the built-in port)
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and you get more than 65,535
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Matt DTS unclaimed interrupts, the system will put up an alert that says
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"Gee, that's a lot of unclaimed
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Matt DTS interrupts. Better see a dealer." (or something like that). If
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you press return, you're returned
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Matt DTS to your application.
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Matt DTS However, while the alert is up interrupts are disabled, so if
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you're in a download you'll lose
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Matt DTS characters and possibly have to start over, depending on how long
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you leave the alert up (and
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Matt DTS the retries, etc.) Fortunately, you only get the alert once.
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We're thinking that in the future we'll
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Matt DTS just eliminate it altogether. <GA>
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AFL Dyfet Which means you have to watch your system....
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GSP1 I've got a Datalink card which emulates a serial card.
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AFL Dyfet GA Tap...
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AFC TAP I've gotten that error with the internal port
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AFC TAP using both a ramfast and a HS SCSI together with AOL...
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AFC TAP <done>
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Ace...
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DangardAce Um, uhm, uhh
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DangardAce Has the duplicate filename bug been fixed? The one where you
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can't replace
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DangardAce file with a new one with the same name if you run P8?
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AFA Gary J The infamous "save as.." bug.
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AFL Dyfet GA Andy...
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ShrinkIt (This is Dave L--my session froze.) Yes, the
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ShrinkIt problem where Standard File wouldn't give you a "Do you want to
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replace this file?" dialog was
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ShrinkIt fixed. It was actually the Resource Manager not restarting
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properly on return from ProDOS 8 (the
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ShrinkIt dialog message was stored in Sys.Resources). done
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AFL Dyfet Oh, Matt, out of curiosity, what are dealers supposed to tell
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someone if they
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AFL Dyfet get a person comming in who says they had the 65k unclaimed
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message?? :)
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AFA Gary J I can tell you what they WILL say, Dave :)
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AFL Dyfet :)
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DangardAce Also, it was stated that ROM 03 machines are
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DangardAce supposed to be 10% faster than the ROM 01.. is this true for
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everything, or
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DangardAce just for stuff that makes toolbox calls (this was asked on the
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boards but
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DangardAce I'd thought I'd get the official word :))
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AFA Gary J My guess on that question would be only stuff that uses ROM
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routines.
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave....
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ShrinkIt (Dave L again) I don't have any definite numbers, but
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ShrinkIt the speedup there is just from running stuff from ROM instead of
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RAM. Much more of
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ShrinkIt QuickDraw in in ROM on ROM 3, so there is some speed improvement
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there. UP TO 10%; I don't know
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ShrinkIt what a typical value is. done
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DangardAce Is there any truth to a rumor someone mentioned that the ROM 03
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has hidden
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DangardAce caches and registers that 5.03 takes advantage of..
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ShrinkIt How can a ROM have a cache??
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AFL Dyfet As much truth probably as to the rumor that if you hold down the
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OA-ctrl-shft-
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AFL Dyfet opt-apple keys, you will get a message backwards from the Blue
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Temple :)
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AFL Marty LOL
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AFA Gary J Another Rumor: If you do an ASCII dump of the ROM 03 battery
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RAM, it says
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AFA Gary J "Woz is the Walrus" backwards.
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AFL Scott I thought it was "I buried Steve" :)
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A2GS Wasn't it "Apple II Forever or till the Next Mac" ?
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AFA Gary J Scott, that's what you get if you play the digitized "Apple II"
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sound backward.
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AFL Scott ROTFL!:)
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ShrinkIt Dave just left my cube...
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DangardAce I meant registers and softswitches not found in ROM 01
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DangardAce Sheesh. :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay Ace...Clearification is reasonable :)
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ShrinkIt We are not aware of anything "special" in the ROM 03 machine's ROM
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that the general programming public
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ShrinkIt isn't aware of (andy).
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AFA Gary J I have a question....(not related to 5.0.3)
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AFA Gary J I've had problems of not being able to enter the control panel
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after quitting
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AFA Gary J certain IIGS desktop programs. One of the programs is ShrinkIt
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GS. The
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AFA Gary J problem may be something specific to my machine, but I can't seem
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to track it
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AFA Gary J down.
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AFA Gary J (I can get into the control panel after busting into GSBug)
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AFA Gary J GA, Andy
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ShrinkIt (DAL again) I don't know how it could affect
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ShrinkIt ShrinkIt GS, but there -was- a bug fix to SetGrafProcs for 5.0.3,
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where it was leaving
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ShrinkIt the Busy flag incremented by one. This prevents you from getting
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into the CDA menu if the
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ShrinkIt Event Manager is off. The only place you're likely to encounter
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SetGrafProcs getting called is doing
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ShrinkIt Draft mode printing with the ImageWriter driver.
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AFA Gary J This has happened to me in 5.0.2 AND 5.0.3.
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ShrinkIt Gary, does it stop you from getting into CDAs all the time, or
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only from programs that don't
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ShrinkIt use the Event Manager?
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AFA Gary J Only FROM programs that use Event Manager? I haven't tried to
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tie it to
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AFA Gary J Event Manager/No Event Manager programs. Just seems to be
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certain desktop type
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AFA Gary J programs (i.e. America Online GS has no problem).
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ShrinkIt Well, after you quit ShrinkIt GS and can't get to the CP, what
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program are you in? Finder? ProSel?
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AFA Gary J Oh, no, I'm using Squirt-16. That may have something to do with
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it :)
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AFA Gary J It's text based, no event manager.
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ShrinkIt That's what I mean--yeah, if you can't
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ShrinkIt get to CDAs from a program that -doesn't- use the EM, that means
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the Busy flag got incremented
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ShrinkIt accidentally. ga
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS Try allocating some DP space and using Nifty List to start up the
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event manager. You likely won't be
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Matt DTS able to get Squirt to recognize many keystrokes, but if you can
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get into the CDA menu it's a really
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Matt DTS good indication that somebody is incrementing the busy flag and
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leaving it set. (You can also check
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Matt DTS it out from GSBug - it's been in business at $E100FF for four
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years and going strong) <GA>
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ShrinkIt (Matt, starting up the EM isn't actually enough--somebody then has
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to call GetNextEvent or
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ShrinkIt EventAvail. --DAL)
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AFA Gary J I understand now. But Matt, if I can get into the CDA menu to
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use Nifty-List
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AFA Gary J to start the event manager, then I wouldn't need to start the
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event manager :)
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AFL Dyfet :)
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ShrinkIt (DAL: You could drop into GSBug and type E1/FF: to see what the
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busy flag is, then E1/FF:0 and
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ShrinkIt you can get into NL, etc. Whee.)
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AFA Gary J GSBug get's me in, once I get into GSBug, I can get into the CDA
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menu all the
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AFA Gary J time after that.
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Matt DTS You can also write a little program that does nothing but call
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GetNextEvent until you get a "Q"
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Matt DTS key-down event and see if you can get into the CDA menu there,
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etc., etc. There's lots you can play
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Matt DTS with.
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AFA Gary J Ok. I'll check that, Dave. (I'm interested to see if that's
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what's causing
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AFA Gary J it)
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AFA Gary J Dave, did you say that CDA menu problem I'm having should have
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been fixed with
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AFA Gary J 5.0.3? (Info scolled off screen :(
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AFA Gary J (if it is indeed being caused by the incrementing of the busy
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flag, that is)
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Matt DTS Dave sez:
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Matt DTS "Only if it's being caused by SetGrafProcs incrementing the busy
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flag." (If not, we'll have to
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Matt DTS figure out what's incrementing your busy flag.)
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AFA Gary J Ok. (Just wanted to confirm that SetGrafProcs was fixed in
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5.0.3)
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AFA Gary J Thanks.
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Matt DTS Yes, SetGrafProcs no longer increments the busy flag
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one-sidedly.
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AFA Gary J Thanks, Matt/Dave.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have anything else for tonight?
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ShanoJ Matt, Dave, question:
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ShanoJ Are there any known problems with the RunQ and AppleTalk? Twilight
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uses the
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ShanoJ RunQ, and if AppleTalk is active, it seems that it's task is never
|
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called, but
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ShanoJ as soon as appleTalk is deactivated, everything is cool again...
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This is all
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ShanoJ on the same system, same system disk, etc.... I haven't been able
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to do any
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ShanoJ tests as I don't HAVE an AppleTalk setup, but this is what my beta
|
|
testers are
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ShanoJ telling me...
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ShanoJ I even checked my tech notes and didn't find anything... :)
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ShrinkIt (DAL again) ShanoJ, no I don't know of any problems with the Run
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Queue and AppleTalk.
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ShrinkIt Why don't you use the Installer to install AppleShare and see if
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you have the problem? It
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ShrinkIt shouldn't matter if there's really a network connected or not.
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ShanoJ Hmm... Will that work? I'll have to try it... Thanks!
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ShanoJ Can I ask a ORCA/C question?
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AFA Gary J Why not?
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ShanoJ Okay, I have a program that has the following two lines:
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ShanoJ (err, make that three...)
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ShanoJ #define WIDTH 320
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|
ShanoJ #define HEIGHT 200
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|
ShanoJ int screen[WIDTH][HEIGHT];
|
|
ShanoJ And it gets compiler errors at the first [ on the third line...
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|
What am I doing
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|
ShanoJ wrong? That's legal, isn't it?
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ShrinkIt What's the error message? (DAL)
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ShanoJ (oh ya, forgot the ';'s on the first two lines...)
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ShrinkIt NO! Preprocessor directives don't need semicolons.
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ShanoJ Something like 'expected ]' or some such...
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ShrinkIt If you #define WIDTH 320; then every time WIDTH occurs in your
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code it will be replaced by "320;".
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ShanoJ Heh.... Thanks Dave... I'll go bash my head against the wall
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now.... :(
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|
ShanoJ I KNEW that.... Oh well, I guess if we could all program well, no
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|
one would
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|
ShanoJ pay us...
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ShrinkIt (DAL) Great, you had me really confused. Yeah, you forgot to
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*omit* the semicolons in the source; tha
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ShrinkIt that expalins it.
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ShanoJ Then again, come to think of it, no one DOES pay me... :)
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ShanoJ Wish that meant I didn't have any bugs.... :)
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A2GS Write it in Pascal....where you MUST have ";"
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|
A2GS :)
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ShanoJ Ya, I've been using Pascal a lot lately, which is probably why I
|
|
did that...
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ShrinkIt (Except when you have to *not* have ";" in Pascal, like before an
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ELSE. In Pascal ";" separates
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ShrinkIt statements, and in C it terminates them.)
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ShanoJ Ya, I think on my tombstone it'll say killed by a ";"... :( I
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|
always put a ;
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ShanoJ before an ELSE, except usally I hit the "'" or "L" key
|
|
instead....
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