685 lines
33 KiB
Plaintext
685 lines
33 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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Tuesday, October 9, 1990 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
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Topic: Debugging and Testing Software
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet Good evening and welcome to the Apple II Development
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AFL Dyfet Forum. Tonight we will be discussing software testing (not that
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anyone's
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AFL Dyfet software ever has bugs...only features)...We will not be using
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protocol just
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AFL Dyfet yet....so whomever wishes to start, feel free to grab the floor
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:)
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AFL Dyfet Dave, Matt, out of curiosity, what quality control methods does
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Apple use for
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AFL Dyfet new software?
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Dave Lyons Well, basically we have "testers" and a
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Dave Lyons "Bug Reporting Center" where they (or whoever) file
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Dave Lyons bugs. When an engineer claims a bug is fixed, the
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Dave Lyons tester gets to verify that it's fixed, and bugs are later
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"regressed" to make sure they're
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Dave Lyons really still fixed (in case somebody built the final disk with the
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wrong version of a
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Dave Lyons source file, or whatever--stuff like that can definitely
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happen!).
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AFA Parik (like setting the beta bit on a system software version? ;)
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ShanoJ Anyone know what's up with the Scheduler? It just flat out don't
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seem to work
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ShanoJ on some peoples computers. :(
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AFL Marty <-- some people (I think)
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ShanoJ Ya, Marty, you classify as some people. For more than one reason.
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:)
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AFL Marty Thanks, I think.
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Dave Lyons Jonah, if the Scheduler doesn't work it's because somebody
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INCBUSYed more than they DECBUSYed. I
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Dave Lyons bet if they strip out their DAs & stuff it's fixed. Oh, Draft
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mode printing on 5.0.2 and earlier
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Dave Lyons calls SetGrafProcs, which INCBUSYs once too many--does that
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help?
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ShanoJ Uh uh, Dave. I check the busy flag, and it's set to 0. I call
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SchAddTask, and
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ShanoJ get a result flag of TRUE, but the task is never called.
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Dave Lyons Jonah, the only other thing I can think of is that the "scheduler
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is busy" flag got set when a
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Dave Lyons scheduled task was dispatched but never returned (i.e., you crash
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in a scheduled task). In that
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Dave Lyons case on ROM 1 only the scheduler doesn't work again until you
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power off or do a self-test.
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ShanoJ Ya, I've thought about that but my tester turns on the computer
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and trys my
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ShanoJ test program IMMEDIATELY. That means that it is HIGHLY unlikely
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that it's the
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ShanoJ bug in the Scheduler task flag.
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Dave Lyons Okay, one more thing: You're calling the scheduler WHILE the busy
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flag is 0? In that case, the task
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Dave Lyons should be executed only after somebody calls INCBUSY and then
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DECBUSY. SchAddTask never
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Dave Lyons dispatches the task immediately, so if the BUSY flag is 0 you
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don't normally want to
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Dave Lyons call SchAddTask.
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ShanoJ Okay, so I've got it backwards? I should only call SchAddTask if
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the busy flag
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ShanoJ is SET? Ahh, that might be what's messing me up! Thanks, I'll give
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that a try
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ShanoJ (and if it doesn't work... :)
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Dave Lyons Right--if E100FF is 0, the system *isn't* busy, so you don't have
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to use the scheduler.
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ShanoJ On a related note, is there any way to recover from a tool break
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in GSBug?
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AFA Parik 'r'
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ShanoJ Well, actually, I've only set tool breaks on SchAddTask, and the
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GS just
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ShanoJ crahses and sits there.
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Dave Lyons What version?
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ShanoJ v1.5
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Dave Lyons Should work fine. UNLESS your stack was in $01xx. (In that case
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you can improve
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Dave Lyons the behavior by setting $01/0100 to $80--this will make interrupts
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not trash your page-1 stack while
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Dave Lyons you're in GSBug.
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ShanoJ And one more thing: if, from an interrupt, I need to call the
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Scheduler, what
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ShanoJ do I do? I'm not supposed to hog the interrupt, but if the busy
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flag is clear
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ShanoJ I'm supposed to just go do my thing....
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ShanoJ What's at $01/0100?
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Dave Lyons Good question. What's "your thing"?
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ShanoJ Guess. It's blanking in Twilight, of course! :)
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Dave Lyons $01/0100 is the position of the $01xx stack whenever the stack
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pointer *isn't* in page 1. More
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Dave Lyons specifically, it's the main-memory page 1 stack, and $01/0101 is
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the auxiliary-memory page-1 stack
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Dave Lyons (period)
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ShanoJ Is there any way to shadow $002000 into $012000?
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AFA Parik yes
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AFA Parik readrm=0,writeram=1 in $e0c068
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AFA Gary J Hmmmm.. What do you need to do that for??
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AFA Parik (don't do it under gs/os)
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AFA Gary J ($002000 into $012000?)
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ShanoJ I wanna do a weird scroll, and I need to do some strange
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shadowing.
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ShanoJ Ya, I knew that, Parik. Then again, I'm not particularly fond of
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my HD, so I
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ShanoJ might just do it anyway.... :)
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AFA Gary J Weird, strange... hmmmm. Sounds like an interesting program :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, does anyone have any questions related to tonight's topic??
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ShanoJ What exactly is tonights topic?
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AFA Gary J You've been touching on in already, Jonah :)
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AFL Marty (debugging, Jonah)
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ShanoJ Oh ya, I knew that. :) Just wait till I get going... :)
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AFA Parik is gs/os vol 3 shippin' yet?
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AFA Parik er, i mean the addison-wesley one
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WinkieJim Parik, Toolbox Vol 3 is.
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AFA Gary J GS/OS Reference, he means :)
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AFA Parik GS/OS Reference:The Book. The Zen of GS/OS . Whatever its
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called.
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WinkieJim GS/OS re f(only vol) is too
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WinkieJim <---have both final versions
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AFA Gary J BOTH final versions? Of GS/OS Reference?
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AFA Parik GS/OS and you. How to live in a MSDos world with GS/OS. Sex,
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lies, and GS/OS.
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WinkieJim of GS/OS Reference and Toolbox Vol 3
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ShanoJ Anyone know what might be screwing up the menu bar in View 3200?
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I'm 99% sure
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ShanoJ I'm not BLATANTLY stepping on any memory...
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AFA Gary J Have you used Big Brother to check it?
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AFA Gary J :)
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ShanoJ No, that I haven't. Good idea!
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WinkieJim Does it only get messed up when you don't select something?
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ShanoJ It only gets trashed after you view a 3200 color picture...
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WinkieJim Shano, make sure you keep the menu titles in no-purgable and
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non-movable memory
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ShanoJ Yup, they're in the body of my program (no resources for this one
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yet) so if
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ShanoJ THEY get purged, I'm in DEEP trouble. :)
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WinkieJim Oh...I love purging the code I'm executing code in :) :)
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AFL Dyfet Self relocating executing code...core wars lives! :)
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WinkieJim Ok, anyone have any idea how a non-registered developer can get a
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AuxType
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WinkieJim reserved for himself?
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ShanoJ Can't you just send one of those forms to DTS?
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ShanoJ Oh, and Matt and Dave, should I register Twilight's file type?
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WinkieJim Dumb Question #1: What form?
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ShanoJ That is, the blanker file type?
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ShanoJ There's one in the ADV library that you fill out and they assign
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you a file and
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ShanoJ auxType, if you say please a lot and bribe them. :)
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AFA Gary J There's a form, and accompaning instructions available for
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AFA Gary J download in the ADV software library.
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AFA Parik (when you d/l the filetype tech notes, a form is included. look
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in adv/from
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AFA Parik apple/filetype notes)
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AFA Gary J (3 people, same basic answer :)
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WinkieJim Ah, will do...(I get the printed versions from APDA)
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Dave Lyons What's "Twilight's file type"?
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ShanoJ Well, I've been using $B4, $5457. (TW).
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AFL Dyfet I think your wild use of filetyples will be civilized by Apple yet
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:)
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AFL Marty (You mean "Twilight module filetype" don't you?)
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Matt DTS You can NOT use $B4! That's previously assigned as run-time
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libraries!
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ShanoJ Ya, I meant module file type, Marty. Twilight itself is a CDEV, of
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course, so
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ShanoJ it has the $C7 filetype.
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WinkieJim <---needs a $BC filetype and using $0000 until I get an official
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AuxType.
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WinkieJim <----nice programmer :)
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AFL Marty Okay... wasn't sure.
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Dave Lyons Ack!? Don't be making up filetypes. Yes, you should send in a
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form and be assigned a
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Dave Lyons filetype/auxtype combination.
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ShanoJ Ya, well modules ARE runtime libraries, kinda. Anyway, the system
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loader won'y
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ShanoJ load them unless theyre int the $Bx range somewhere, so it HAD to
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be one of
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ShanoJ those reserved types....
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Matt DTS Jonah: You're making this up. You didn't even ask for help
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before doing this.
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Matt DTS Did you even *look* at the file type notes to see about file type
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$BC, which is available for just
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Matt DTS such purposes? If you put one of those files in the Libraries
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directory, the Loader could do very bad
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Matt DTS things to people's applications.
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Dave Lyons (Actually, you can get the loader to load anything--just load it
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into RAM first and use
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Dave Lyons InitialLoad2 on it. Or make it a Code Resource and let the
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CodeResConverter do the above for you
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Dave Lyons automatically.)
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Matt DTS It's very depressing to spend years telling people not to steal
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file types just to have it happen
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Matt DTS every other week, from people who seem to be paying attention.
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<--depressed
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ShanoJ Ya, well that's about a zillion extra things to do, and eveyone
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knows how lazy
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ShanoJ I am. :)
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ShanoJ Matt, I DID ask for help, just not on that. :)
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Matt DTS [I'm not impressed.]
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WinkieJim Do I get a prize for not stealing a fyletype? :)
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ShanoJ Hey, Matt, it's not that bad. I'm sorry.
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AFA Parik you get to buy lunch for dts
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ShanoJ Would it make it up to you if I got Marty to lend you some of his
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pigs?
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ShanoJ (sorry, couldn't resist that ONE little joke... :)
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AFA Gary J Matt, Dave - Did you see Winkie's question about if you need to
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be a registered
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AFA Gary J developer in order to request a file type? (I can't recall what
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the
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AFA Gary J request form stipulates )
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Matt DTS You do not have to be a Partner or Associate - nowhere on the form
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does it say that you do.
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AFA Gary J Ok. (I thought not)
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Matt DTS Jim: You're also free to use auxtype $0000 in file type $BC, even
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if you ship it that way. Just be
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Matt DTS prepared that other people may be using it as well.
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AFL Dyfet The point is not to step on other peoples filetypes...before Apple
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started
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AFL Dyfet tracking filetype use, it was a REAL MESS out there...I know :)
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WinkieJim Well that's the problem, I don't want to load the wrong kind of
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file and
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WinkieJim blow up the world in the process :)
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ShanoJ Ya, but that's a real problem. If I use $BC,$0000 and someone else
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uses
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ShanoJ $BC,$0000, I'm in deep do-do.
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AFL Dyfet And if you chose a type that matches something used in future
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system software,
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AFL Dyfet all the worse...
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Matt DTS So did you bother to take the form conveniently provided online
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and *ask* for a unique auxtype?
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Matt DTS Nooooo.....
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AFA Gary J :)
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WinkieJim I can inmagine loading a NifytyList module into SuperInfo and
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destrying the
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WinkieJim world as I know it :)
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Matt DTS About half the system is held together by developer cooperation,
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gang, and that means *all* of you,
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Matt DTS not just the big guys. PLEASE pay attention before you send
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programs to several thousand people.
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AFA Gary J (I KNEW this would raise Matt's ire :)
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ShanoJ No, you're right, I didn't. I _DID_ download it, though, but it
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got lossed. :(
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WinkieJim <---follows the rules....most of the time ;)
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ShanoJ Ya, I follow a hell of a lot of rules, but I'm also REALLY
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lazy...
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ShanoJ I'm sorry Matt. Tell you what: I'm working on Twilight v2.0 right
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now. I'll
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ShanoJ send in the file type form, get a new filetype, change all of
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Twilight's code
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ShanoJ to the new one AND include a converter from the old to the new
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file types in
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ShanoJ the final archive, AND I'll put a note in the docs saying what a
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naughty boy I
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ShanoJ was and reminding everyone not to do what I did. Would that make
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things a
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ShanoJ little better?
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AFL Dyfet Lazyness on filetype hurts more than just you, Jonah...
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Matt DTS So be lazy when you're not sending stuff to a few thousand people.
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<-- SERIOUSLY unimpressed
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AFL Scott How long does it take to get a filetype assigned? I don't want to
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use BIN as the filetype for raw
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AFL Scott images.
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AFL Scott And DTS is closed right now, and I'm shipping at the end of the
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month.
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Matt DTS It normally takes about a day, but DTS is currently closed until
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October 19th so it may be until then.
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Matt DTS I'll warn you right off that I'm resistant to allocating any new
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graphic image auxtypes -- all we
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Matt DTS need at this point is another graphic file format for other
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programs to deal with.
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AFL Scott Matt, these are raw images, previously undefined. I want to make
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the format well known to everyone
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AFL Scott not just the people who buy the board.
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AFL Dyfet Ah...
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Matt DTS In other words, a fourth or fifth "standard" that everyone should
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be expected to revise their programs
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Matt DTS to follow. I really have trouble believing that one of the
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existing graphics formats can't suit
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Matt DTS nearly everyone's needs, especially since Apple Preferred is
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user-extendable.
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ShanoJ Matt, we're talking about a format that's COMPLETELY unlike all
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other GS
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ShanoJ formats, particularly in the way that it can store ALL of the
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colors.
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AFL Scott No, not at all. Tell me one that deals with raw data and NOT
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pixelmaps and I'll do it.
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ShanoJ It's HIGHLY unlikely that any existing paint program will even TRY
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to load the
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ShanoJ damn things, but it would be VERY nice for people to be able to
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get ahold of
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ShanoJ the format specs so they can include support in programs like
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SHRConvert,
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ShanoJ Convert 3200, The Graphic Exchange, etc.
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Matt DTS I tend to think of pixel maps as raw pixel data. What do you
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mean?
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Dave Lyons Yeah, what's Raw Data?
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ShanoJ Raw data= 3 32K chunks of 0-$F.
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AFL Scott I mean a raw, unformatted, un-quantized, picture that can contain
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up to 4096 colors.
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WinkieJim Data that hasn't been cooked
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ShanoJ No implicit color map or pixel map.
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AFL Scott What Jonah said.
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AFA Gary J What Winkie said :)
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Matt DTS In other words, a pixel map at 12 bits per pixel.
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AFL Scott Yes.
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AFL Scott But in three 32k planes.
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Matt DTS Do you see my point about publishing yet another graphic format,
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though?
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AFL Scott I see it and I agree with it. I just don't see how
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AFL Scott it can fit into Apple Preferred without you still having to write
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a FTN to show that the main segment
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AFL Scott is void.
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Dave Lyons Can you use TIFF, Scott?
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Matt DTS Who says you have to have a MAIN block?
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Matt DTS (Dave: We don't have an auxtype assigned for TIFF, so it may not
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help.)
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AFL Scott TIFF would be Ideal, however, under the circumstances, it's really
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too late to add the
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AFL Scott all color TIFF files (or those that I can find the spec on) and
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I'm not up to the coding right now.
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Matt DTS I personally prefer to think you could store a GS-type pixel map
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in a regular Apple-preferred file
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Matt DTS and add a SCOTT block (or something :) that contains all the rest
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of your stuff. If the user tries
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AFL Scott code for TIFF processing. Additionally, that opens up another can
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of worms implying TIFF support for
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Matt DTS to load an APF file that doesn't contain the SCOTT block, you tell
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them and just display the picture.
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Dave Lyons (Matt: We should define an auxtype for TIFF.)
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AFL Scott Ok... I'll see if I can do it that way, Matt. I guess I
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misunderstood APF format, then. Oh... As
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AFL Scott far as a TIFF auxtype goes.. it's a horribly convoluted format
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that's really a mess. Just my
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AFL Scott opinion.
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Matt DTS (If someone requests it, I will - I don't normally make up
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auxtypes for stuff no one has said they
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Matt DTS want>)
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WinkieJim Why not? :) Make $77 the StuffNoOneWants filetype.
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AFA Gary J Winkie :)
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ShanoJ Anyone know how to make the DOC interrupt at 50Hz? I wish Parik
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were here...
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ShanoJ Gee, Matt, could you create a TIFF file format for the GS so
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Convert 3200 can
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ShanoJ identify them?
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Matt DTS Not that you would know, Jonah, but there's a form you fill out to
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request auxtypes.
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ShanoJ Also, I hope I don't have to go through the third degree to get a
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file/aux typy
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ShanoJ for Twilight... :(
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ShanoJ Matt, not to be rude, but you know, you make this REAL easy on a
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person... :(
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Matt DTS You make it really easy on me by shipping around 10,000 bogus
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run-time libraries to the world because
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Matt DTS you're "too lazy" to fill out a simple form. I don't mean to be
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rude (No, really, I don't! Those
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Matt DTS of you who've been here for a while may not believe that, though
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:) but I really lose patience quickly
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Matt DTS when people treat things like this as unimportant.
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ShanoJ Hey, Matt, there isn't anything I can do about that now. I've
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offered to fix it in
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ShanoJ the next release, which involves recoding signifigant parts of the
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program, and
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ShanoJ I'm even willing to write a converter so that people won't be
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stranded using
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ShanoJ the old Twilight modules. If that's not good enough for you, there
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aint much
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ShanoJ more I can do...
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AFL Dyfet I think a good start, Jonah, is the fill out the form...
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ShanoJ Hey, that's DONE. I found one in my binder while I was sitting
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here and its all
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ShanoJ typed out and ready to go... It'll be in the mail tomorrow.
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WinkieJim Then we won 't have to send out the FileType death squad out...
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Nuzz Just curious, why is DTS closed until the 19th ?
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AFL Dyfet Long memory Nuzz :)
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WinkieJim Two week columbus day closing :) :)
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Matt DTS Nearly everyone is working on Sample Code and other projects that
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we can't do while keeping up the
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Matt DTS current Email load. All Apple Partners were sent an AppleLink
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explaining it.
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Matt DTS (All partners with AppleLink accounts, Andy. :)
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AFL Dyfet :)
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Paladin100 There are 10,000 Apple users left? I thought Apple converted
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everyone to Macs!
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AFA Gary J :)
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ShanoJ So, no takers on the 50Hz interrupts? Shucks. :( Not my day, huh?
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:)
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AFA Gary J Conversion is an individual thing, Paladin. Apple can't do it
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for you :)
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Paladin100 But they're trying!
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ShanoJ No, I swaer, my GS was turning into a Mac when I wasn't looking.
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Then I turned
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ShanoJ back and it was back to normal, but if I'd been gone for an hour
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or so.... :)
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ShanoJ Ya, as long as the squad can come out tonight so I won't have to
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do my English
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ShanoJ paper.... :)
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ShrinkIt I like that idea... "The Filetype Death Squad"... hmmm what
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possibilities...
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Tamira :>
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AFL Marty You been putting Mac disks in it again Jonah?
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Tamira must be one of those pesky Mac cloning viruses :>
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AFA Gary J Debugging type question: Dave, what's in the future for Nifty
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List?
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Dave Lyons The future for Nifty List? Probably 3.1, 3.2.... What do you
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mean?
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AFA Gary J Heheh... No, I mean, are you actually going to be able to IMPROVE
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what you've
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AFA Gary J done so far? It seems to be very complete. Any new features in
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the works?
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WinkieJim There's always room for inpovement...
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|
Dave Lyons There's always room for improvement...
|
|
Dave Lyons :)
|
|
WinkieJim (my spelling could stand improvement :)
|
|
AFA Gary J :)
|
|
Dave Lyons Geez, it doesn't even have command-line history yet!
|
|
Dave Lyons And Big Brother is only half done.
|
|
AFA Gary J True. But I consider Big Brother as a module improvement.
|
|
Dave Lyons And the \find command doesn't have wildcard bytes!
|
|
Dave Lyons And there's no NDA interface to NL!
|
|
Dave Lyons And no NL command scripts, and no redirection to disk.
|
|
AFA Gary J NDA interface? Interesting :)
|
|
Dave Lyons And no OS calls from the command line.
|
|
WinkieJim Dave, don't worry about a NDA NiftyList...I've got that covered
|
|
:)
|
|
Dave Lyons And you have to enter strings into "scratch" memory and type their
|
|
addresses, instead of typing
|
|
Dave Lyons them inside a tool-call expression.
|
|
Dave Lyons LOTS of stuff to do....
|
|
AFA Gary J You are full of ideas. :) Sounds fantastic!
|
|
Matt DTS (Don't forget about no NL-provided notify proc)
|
|
Dave Lyons Eh?
|
|
Dave Lyons Oh, okay...there will be an \addnp command
|
|
Dave Lyons in 3.1 that lets you see what things are being sent to GS/OS
|
|
Notify Procs.
|
|
Matt DTS (And a waning when the stack is in page one and tool calls could
|
|
toast you.)
|
|
AFA Gary J :)
|
|
Dave Lyons (Yeah, everybody will be relieved when that feature shows up.) (
|
|
<-- sarcasm )
|
|
|
|
ShanoJ Okay, what's everyone's favorite debugging aid?
|
|
AFA Gary J GSBug/Nifty List combo.
|
|
ShanoJ Ya, me to. (GSBug/NiftyList). I think GSBug is God's gift to GS
|
|
Assembly
|
|
WinkieJim <---favorite debugging The thing crashes on me durring the tool
|
|
call
|
|
WinkieJim err two thoughts in one there :)
|
|
ShanoJ programmers, and Nifty List is God's gift to ALL GS programmers.
|
|
:)
|
|
ShanoJ And ORCA/Diss has quickly become one of my favorites, too.... :)
|
|
Matt DTS That's funny - I know several people who would swear that
|
|
*they're* God's gift to GS programming.
|
|
AFA Gary J Matt :)
|
|
ShanoJ Hell, I've sworn that, but they made me stop over in the DC. And I
|
|
can't use
|
|
ShanoJ 'Well...' as a subject, either. :)
|
|
|
|
WinkieJim Anyone know if there's a problem with NEwControl2 loading a
|
|
rTextForLETextBox2
|
|
WinkieJim resource for a Static Text Control?
|
|
Dave Lyons WJ, what sort of a problem? I don't know of one.
|
|
Dave Lyons Do you have all the descriptor and flag bits set to indicate
|
|
what's a resource and what isn't?
|
|
WinkieJim Yup, the Call takes a pointer to a Static Text Control Template
|
|
and the
|
|
WinkieJim template points to the resource.
|
|
ShanoJ 'Points to the resource'?
|
|
ShanoJ You mean it has the resource's ID?
|
|
WinkieJim Well...gives the Resource ID
|
|
Dave Lyons What's the moreFlags value in the template?
|
|
WinkieJim $1002
|
|
WinkieJim wait a sec.....hmmmm
|
|
WinkieJim $1002 is what it should be :) my binary number has an extra zero
|
|
in it so it's
|
|
WinkieJim $2002....god I hate it when it's such a simple thing. :/
|
|
|
|
ShanoJ Is there any hope of the runtime version of GSBug being updated to
|
|
handle
|
|
ShanoJ the _StartTools call properly, or can't you guys talk about
|
|
that?
|
|
Matt DTS "runtime version"? There's a source-level version?
|
|
AFA Gary J I thought "application" version is being dumped.
|
|
ShanoJ I mean the stand-alone version.
|
|
AFA Gary J (The NON-Init version)
|
|
Matt DTS It is most likely at this point that the non-INIT version of GSBug
|
|
will go away with the next release.
|
|
ShanoJ Oh, that's too bad. It had it's uses, particularly for startup
|
|
code. I hate
|
|
ShanoJ having to put a brk 00 and recompile to debug the startup. Also,
|
|
there's NO
|
|
ShanoJ hope of the INIT version not returning GSBug's MemID when
|
|
_MMStartUp is called
|
|
ShanoJ from within it, huh?
|
|
Dave Lyons Jonah, can't you set a tool break on TLStartUp instead of
|
|
recompiling with a BRK?
|
|
Dave Lyons Yes, there's hope that the next version will return the right
|
|
MemID for things like MMStartUp.
|
|
ShanoJ Hmm, hadn't thought of that, Dave. Will it work? I haven't had
|
|
much luck with
|
|
ShanoJ tool breaks on SchAddTask....
|
|
AFA Gary J Can you give us any info on approximately WHEN the update of
|
|
GSBug will be out?
|
|
AFA Gary J (I know you hate that kind of question! :)
|
|
Matt DTS The 1.5b9 and 1.5b10 versions (KansasFest and beyond) are on
|
|
Developer CD, Volume V
|
|
Matt DTS ("Night of the Living Disc") which is being pressed as we speak.
|
|
Matt DTS (give or take two corrupted text files. :( )
|
|
ShanoJ Matt, who thinks up the titles for the CD's? And, how much have
|
|
they had to
|
|
ShanoJ drink when they do it? :)
|
|
AFA Gary J Ahh. Neat.
|
|
Matt DTS The Developer CD's are named by various people within Apple - it's
|
|
kind of like a contest.
|
|
Matt DTS It so happens that "Night of the Living Disc" was thought of by
|
|
me.
|
|
ShanoJ Ya, it sound's like your kind of stuff. :) I must say that I'm
|
|
glad you write
|
|
ShanoJ tech notes. They'd be INCREDIBLY boring without your humor! :)
|
|
ShanoJ Now, if you had just written my history textbook... :)
|
|
AFA Gary J A perfect name for an October release, I might add :)
|
|
Matt DTS I thought so. :)
|
|
|
|
ShanoJ Matt, Dave, how are NDA's called (ie. what calls them)? Would it
|
|
be legal for
|
|
ShanoJ me to try to show a 3200 color picture from an NDA?
|
|
ShrinkIt yeah, just put up a modal dialog asking what to do, then show the
|
|
3200 pic and
|
|
ShrinkIt return... simple...
|
|
Dave Lyons Well, OpenNDA calls an NDA's Open routine. You're allowed to be
|
|
"modal" at that time
|
|
Dave Lyons and return much later (returning NIL for your window pointer).
|
|
ShanoJ So it would be okay for me to hog all of the interrupts? Also, is
|
|
it okay for
|
|
ShanoJ an NDA to call RefreshDesktop?
|
|
ShanoJ (Oh, putting aside the AppleTalk issue, for the moment...)
|
|
Dave Lyons It might be easier (than calling RefreshDesktop) to open a
|
|
full-screen window (after doing a
|
|
Dave Lyons HideMenuBar). That way when you close the window the system knows
|
|
to refresh the desktop, and if
|
|
Dave Lyons some strange application is updating any of its windows at
|
|
interrupt time (carefully!), then the
|
|
Dave Lyons visRgns for its windows will indicate that they aren't visible, so
|
|
you don't have to worry about
|
|
Dave Lyons it. Interrupts are still necessary, not only for AppleTalk but
|
|
for typing, if you're reading
|
|
Dave Lyons keypresses through the event manager. Be very careful about
|
|
disabling interrupt sources that
|
|
Dave Lyons aren't yours.
|
|
ShanoJ Okay, Parik suggested just grabbing 32K and storing the screen
|
|
there, and then
|
|
ShanoJ blasting it back when I was done. This is a no-no, right?
|
|
ShanoJ Hmm... What's the rule about disabling interrupts? I was hoping
|
|
that I could
|
|
ShanoJ shut them all down as long as I promised to start them back up
|
|
again. Is it
|
|
ShanoJ not quite that easy?
|
|
Dave Lyons It's always better to assume as little as possible, but for a
|
|
3200-color display program you may have
|
|
Dave Lyons to assume a lot. You can save the screen without assuming its
|
|
size or location (open a fresh port
|
|
Dave Lyons and examine the locInfo structure). Or you can use
|
|
RefreshDesktop--nothing wrong with that.
|
|
Matt DTS "Don't do it unless absolutely necessary, and then only for very
|
|
short periods of time."
|
|
ShanoJ Hmm... Well, how do I judge 'absolute necessity'? For instance
|
|
it's absolutely
|
|
ShanoJ required to do it to show 3200 color pictures. Is that a good
|
|
enough justifi-
|
|
ShanoJ cation?
|
|
ShanoJ Or, should I include a message in the NDA that says 'this NDA does
|
|
naughty
|
|
ShanoJ stuff, use it at your own risk' and let the user decide if that's
|
|
enough
|
|
ShanoJ justification? (then again, with my programs I should probably do
|
|
that anyway:)
|
|
Dave Lyons If you disable certain ADB interrupts, the keyboard and/or mouse
|
|
will *not* work with certain
|
|
Dave Lyons "universal access" utilities, even if you're reading the
|
|
keyboard/mouse softswitches directly.
|
|
ShanoJ Well, with all the interrupts I disable for View 3200 I still seem
|
|
to be able
|
|
ShanoJ to read the mouse register (forgotten the address at the moment)
|
|
and $E0C000.
|
|
ShanoJ That indicates that I'm not shutting TOO much down, right?
|
|
ShanoJ And finally, anyone know what's with the VOC? I've heard that none
|
|
of the
|
|
ShanoJ existing 3200 color displayers work with it.... :(
|
|
Dave Lyons No, I said *with certain universal access utilities*. Send me a
|
|
copy of your app and I can
|
|
Dave Lyons try it out.
|
|
ShanoJ Oh, and is there any way to tell what Hz the display is running
|
|
at, and is
|
|
ShanoJ it legal to CHANGE this behind the user's back, and then change it
|
|
back when
|
|
ShanoJ I'm done?
|
|
Dave Lyons The Video Overlay Card has its own scanline counters--they
|
|
aren't
|
|
Dave Lyons synchronized with the GS's. APDA has the "Video Overlay Card
|
|
Developer Notes" or something,
|
|
Dave Lyons which you might want to get.
|
|
Matt DTS It is definitely not legal to change from 60 Hz to 50 Hz.
|
|
Dave Lyons If you change the scan rate of the monitor, you're going to make
|
|
the display toasty, or at least
|
|
Dave Lyons bouncy.
|
|
ShanoJ I take it that means 'no'?
|
|
Dave Lyons If somebody has their display scanning at 50Hz, it's probably
|
|
because they're in a European country
|
|
Dave Lyons using a PAL display--they need it set that way to get a picture.
|
|
Matt DTS I think "definitely not" means "no", yes.
|
|
ShanoJ Ya, that's my problem. My code won't work for Europeans, and I get
|
|
lots of
|
|
ShanoJ nasty notes saying 'how could you release a program that doesn't
|
|
even work (and
|
|
ShanoJ they're NOT talking about Twilight) and it turns out they're
|
|
running at 50Hz
|
|
ShanoJ which is screwing things up...
|
|
Matt DTS Switching it to 60 Hz isn't going to help - they run at 50 Hz for
|
|
a reason.
|
|
ShanoJ Well, they say that if they set it to 60Hz in the control panel it
|
|
fixes
|
|
ShanoJ things....
|
|
AFL Scott It's an interesting problem... how to code for international
|
|
compatibility.
|
|
Matt DTS Yeah, your program runs but other things (like some timing for
|
|
peripherals) might not.
|
|
ShanoJ Haven't the slightest idea how that works, though....
|
|
ShanoJ Ya, Scott. FOr Australia you have to do everything upside down.
|
|
The disks
|
|
ShanoJ John MacLean send me go in the wrong way up.... :)
|
|
AFA Gary J And disks spin in the opposite direction, too :)
|
|
Dave Lyons Actually, I don't know exactly how the scanline counters work for
|
|
PAL. When I revised the
|
|
Dave Lyons technical note on VBL, I left it a little wishy-washy on the PAL
|
|
stuff because I had no
|
|
Dave Lyons PAL equipment to play with.
|
|
ShanoJ Gee, Dave, you mean Apple doen't sponsor trips to Europe for tech
|
|
note
|
|
ShanoJ research? Jeez.... :)
|
|
ShanoJ Any last minute advice for what I should do on the 50Hz
|
|
ShanoJ Apples?
|
|
Matt DTS Write alternate timing code for 50 Hz machines, maybe.
|
|
Dave Lyons Yeah, get one of your users to tell you what you have to
|
|
do to make it work for 50Hz!
|
|
ShanoJ Heh, make that 50 Hz MONITORS. And I thought 2.5 Mhz was slow...
|
|
:)
|
|
AFA Gary J (Heck, I'll try a 50 mhz machine :)
|
|
ShanoJ Dave, do you know if the VERTCNT register is incremented the same
|
|
on the 50 and
|
|
ShanoJ 60 Hz mahines?
|
|
ShanoJ That's ALL I'm reading for the 3200 color pics, so SOMETHING about
|
|
it must be
|
|
ShanoJ screwey... :(
|
|
Dave Lyons VERTCNT is $C02E, right? (Sorry, I think in hex.) I believe it's
|
|
similar but slightly different,
|
|
Dave Lyons since there are a different number of scan lines (not in the
|
|
useful display area, obviously). The
|
|
Dave Lyons 0..199 super-hires lines probably -don't- have the same numbers,
|
|
though!
|
|
Dave Lyons You might try some experimentation--On all the machines I've
|
|
tried, you *can* set your GS to
|
|
ShanoJ Ya, somewehere around there. Lesse....... yup, $C02E.
|
|
AFL Dyfet Hmm...interesting thought...
|
|
Dave Lyons 50Hz and still get a readable (though slightly flickery)
|
|
display.
|
|
ShanoJ Hmm, mine completely flips out. The whole thing jumps up and down
|
|
and looks
|
|
ShanoJ most awful. :(
|
|
AFL Dyfet You need 50hz AC power :)
|
|
ShanoJ Also, I'm not sure that would tell me what I need to know...
|
|
ShanoJ Right, I'll just plug the GS into my friendly local 50Hz
|
|
Alternating Cat, and
|
|
AFA Gary J Yes, the AC power would make the difference.
|
|
ShanoJ away I'll go! :)
|
|
AFL Dyfet The monitor is still synced for 60hz...
|
|
AFL Dyfet I just bet it freaks out :)
|
|
Dave Lyons Jonah, do you have RGB?
|
|
ShanoJ Ya, I've got the standard GS RGB monitor (not the fancy Mac
|
|
one).
|
|
Dave Lyons Did you try adjusting the vertical-position/roll control?
|
|
ShanoJ Ya, didn't help much. I couldn't get a stable picture....
|
|
Dave Lyons Bummer...
|
|
ShanoJ Ya. I'll try again, though. Maybe the new position of the moon
|
|
will help
|
|
ShanoJ things....
|
|
ShanoJ :)
|
|
|