474 lines
20 KiB
Plaintext
474 lines
20 KiB
Plaintext
AppleLink
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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August 15, 1989 10:00 pm eastern time
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Topic: The new IIGS, Pascal & C programming
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's topic is
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Pascal and C
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AFL Dyfet programming. We will be using *PROTOCOL* beginning now, so if
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you wish to ask a question, type a '?' on
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AFL Dyfet a line by itself, and if you wish to make a comment, like Coach
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has indicated,
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AFL Dyfet please enter a '!' on a line by itself. I will call each of you
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in turn.
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AFL Dyfet Coach, you seem to be first, so you have the floor now. Go ahead
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:)
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Coach101 I would like to commend Matt on getting some technical
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information
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Coach101 posted here on AppleLink on the same day that Apple made the
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announcement...
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Coach101 GREAT JOB!!!! ga
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Matt DTS <blush>
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AFL Dyfet Thank you Coach, and especially you, Matt, for your prompt and
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informative
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AFL Marty Yes indeed. It's much appreciated!
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AFL Dyfet release of that information :)...I believe A2GS has the first
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question, you
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AFL Dyfet have the floor now...
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A2GS Anybody here have an opportunity to use the (so-called) new GS?
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AFA Parik !
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Matt DTS !
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Dave Lyons !
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JimMensch !
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JimMensch (he he he)
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AFL Dyfet GA Parik, you seem to be first :)
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A2GS I thought so! :) ....
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AFA Parik yeah - from a users viewpoint, its nice! I'm not saying its my
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dream machine,
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AFA Parik but the mouse really seems smooth for me now.
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AFA Parik I'll let the elitists who have used for it decades probably say
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more :) ga
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A2GS smooth as opposed to what?
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AFA Parik er...rough? :)
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Matt DTS I like mine tremendously. I lust for one at home. :)
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AFL Dyfet Ha Matt, Dave, and Jim, I'm sure all three of you have something
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you wish
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AFL Dyfet to say :)
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A2GS Say it!
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Matt DTS My hard drives are in slots 7 and 4 with full AppleTalk and
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desktop mouse abilities.
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JimMensch Well,
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JimMensch as far as the current installed base, I would say its nothing to
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write home about.
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A2GS Come on Jim, don't let a little company like Apple bother you.
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:)
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Coach101 ?
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Dave Lyons I like mine a lot.
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JimMensch However for new owners is gives them a little more for their money
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(more memory, easier mem upgrade)
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JimMensch a slot or two more and a little more flexability when setting the
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control panel
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A2GS Will there be possible compatibility problems?
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JimMensch other than that its (at least software wise) about the same.
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JimMensch Not that we know of, but I am sure some application somewhere will
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not work with it...
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A2GS Any vector locations changed, softswitches, etc...
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AFL TimB Hi y'all
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AFL TimB Mr Mensch!
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JimMensch vector locations are the same for both machines
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Matt DTS <GA>
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JimMensch no new softswitches to note
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A2GS Is it safe to assume that the 256k ROM now contains nearly all the
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new tools?
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JimMensch just a new memory configuration. (1.125 meg instead of 1.25
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meg...)
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A2GS and patches.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, any further comments, Gentlemen? I see Matt has finished up
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:)
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JimMensch No, not all the tools, but it does contain 112K more tools
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Matt DTS The discussion in Misc. Dev. Topics lists the tools now in ROM
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that weren't before.
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JimMensch ga
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Matt DTS <GA> <again> :)
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A2GS finished :)
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Dave Lyons ga
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AFL Dyfet You have the floor now, Coach, GA...
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Coach101 Does the new machine's "increased slot capability" indicate a 14
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(16) slot
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JimMensch !
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Matt DTS !
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Coach101 model or just an ability to re-use some previously dedicated
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ports? ga
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AFL Dyfet GA Jim...or Matt :)
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Matt DTS Coach, the message in Misc. talks about the exact slot changes,
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mostly to 1,2,4 and 7, with some to 5.
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JimMensch Well, first, you no longer need to have slot 4 set to mouse to use
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the desktop
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JimMensch ga matt... :)
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Matt DTS GS/OS-style dynamic slot arbitration is *not* present in this ROM.
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<GA>
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Matt DTS (If I should be repeating this instead of referring to the forum,
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someone please tell me. :)
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Coach101 I will get the rest of the details from the Misc Dev Topic....
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Thanks
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Coach101 -Q
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AFL Dyfet Okay, thank you again :)...I see that our Q stands next on JMCPHD
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(I listed
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JMCPHD I thought this was going to be about C and Pascal
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AFL Dyfet from the start, Coach :)....GA, JMCPHD, you have the floor
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now...
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AFL Dyfet So did I originally, JMCPHD :)...I think we will be getting to
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that topic
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AFL Dyfet shortly :)...Okay, I believe AFA Parik has the floor next, GA
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Parik.
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AFA Parik couple of questions. whats the best way to learn about the
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toolbox in pascal?
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AFA Parik I just larned pascal, and sorta know the toolbox, but not pascal
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interface.
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AFA Parik ga
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AFA Parik (do the compiler books have info?)
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AFL Dyfet GA JMC...
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JMCPHD both orca c and orca pascal mostly refer you to the tool box
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reference books
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AFL Dyfet GA A2GS...
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A2GS Have you tried looking at the source which comes with Hodgepodge
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when you
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A2GS get the Programmers intro to the GS?
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AFA Parik no
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AFA Parik will try it.
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AFA Parik second question - can TS2 be deleted if one uses the new GS?
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons On your first question--not sure what kind of stuff you're looking
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for. Since you
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Dave Lyons already know assembly, you've got a good grip on what goes on when
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you call
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Dave Lyons a toolbox routine from Pascal (because it's the same as when
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Dave Lyons you call from assembly!). Are you asking about type casting or
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something?
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Dave Lyons On TS2--I haven't tried deleting it, and you should certainly keep
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it there on any shipping disk. GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Jim...
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JimMensch Well, with a classic GS (or what we internally call a ROM 2
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machine), the GS you all have right now, y
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JimMensch you can delete TS3. On the new GS you can delete TS2 and some of
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the tool files if you are really
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JimMensch tight for space. (like you could delete the window/menu/control
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tools...)
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JimMensch But this should only be done by the users themselves... GA
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons (I believe the literature calls ROM 01 "ROM 2.0" and ROM 00 "ROM
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1.0".) GA
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AFL Dyfet Q=AFA Parik(Dave Lyons), AFL TimB, AFL Marty, JMCPHD, A2GS...Are
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there any
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AFL Dyfet further comments?'
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AFA Parik lastly, is there any way to identity for a programmer which
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machine you're
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AFA Parik running on?
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AFA Parik (as in new gs vs old
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Matt DTS !
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt....
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Matt DTS The ROM version routine ($FE1F) still works. It returns $03 for
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ROM 03 in the new GS (there is no
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Matt DTS ROM 02, to avoid the same confusion we got giving a ROM version of
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01 for ROM 2.0). GA
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AFA Parik thanks - done
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AFL Dyfet Thank you Matt...I believe Doctor Why had a comment to
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add...GA...
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Doctor Why I don't know which Pascal Parik has, but the source code for the
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units are
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Doctor Why available. Print them off...you will refer to them a lot! GA
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AFL Dyfet Thanks for that suggestion. I believe our next question is from
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AFL TimB,
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AFL TimB I've heard that 5.0 has problems and that 5.0.1 is being released,
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is this....
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Matt DTS !
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AFL TimB true, what are the problems and should we be concerned?
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS We are aware of a few problems in 5.0. Most notable are problems
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described in this forum..
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Matt DTS ...concerning BASIC.System, and some new Standard File calls not
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behaving as they should.
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Matt DTS However, no new revision to the System Software has been announced
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at this time.
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AE PhilM !
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Matt DTS (Should one come along, though, we'll be sure to let you know.)
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GA
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AFL Dyfet Perhaps a simple update with an installer script would be a good
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way to
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AFL Dyfet provide such an update? Well, I see Phil would like to add a
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comment, GA
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AFL Dyfet Phil.
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AE PhilM I am using some of thoes new SF calls....can you be more specific
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Matt?
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Matt DTS We're aware that in the "SF...2" call, the auxiliary type is not
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returned properly.
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AE PhilM thoes = those
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JimMensch Don't pop the disk out while you have the standard file window
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open ;)
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Matt DTS Specifically, not only does the new typelist function not match
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auxtypes, filterprocs don't
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AE PhilM Thanks!
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Matt DTS get the right auxtype either. Old calls still work properly,
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though.
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Matt DTS (And what Jim said.) GA
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AFL TimB And another question..
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from Marty, GA Marty...
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AFL Marty Tim has another, GA Tim.
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AFL TimB You say that not all tools are in ROM, which ones currently aren't
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in ROM?
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Matt DTS !
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS (I get to repeat it anyway :)
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AE PhilM ?
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Matt DTS The tools that were in ROM 01 are present, as are the Window,
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Control, Menu, Dialog, Scrap, Font...
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Matt DTS ...and List managers, and Line Edit. All other tools are still
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RAM based. GA>
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AFL TimB (Done Dave)
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AFL Scott ?
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Tim....no problem :)...GA Marty...
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AFL TimB Thanks
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AFL Marty Would I be correct in saying that the new GS works only with...
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AFL Marty system 5.0 or greater?
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JimMensch yes
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JimMensch too a point...
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Matt DTS Sorta. :)
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JimMensch old system disks will boot and run just fine
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JimMensch but be aware that they do not have the new patch file, so some
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bugs might crop up...
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AFL Marty I see... you anticipated my next question then...
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JimMensch and no, you can not just copy that patch file and expect it to
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work...
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AFL Marty I was wondering about programs like PWG which don't work with 5.0
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now.
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AFL Marty (please don't FN me when I'm asking a question)
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JimMensch I use it on mine...
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JimMensch ga
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AFL Marty Thank you. Done.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from JMCPHD. GA JMC...
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JMCPHD I have both Orca c and Pascal I need to learn about the tool box,
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suggestions?
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JMCPHD ga
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AFL Dyfet The official Addison-Wesley toolbox manuals are loaded with
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information, though
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AFL Dyfet not nessisarily in a manner easy to follow or to learn how to
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use....I see
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AFL Dyfet Matt wishes to comment, GA Matt...
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Matt DTS Apple publishes a book called "Programmer's Introduction to the
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Apple IIgs" which gives a pretty good
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Matt DTS overview of the desktop programming concept. It comes with a
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sample application in a few languages.
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Matt DTS <GA>
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Coach101 Matt took the words out of my mouth.. ga
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AFL Dyfet I have never seen that publication myself, although I am vaguely
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aware of it.
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AFL Dyfet It sounds like something worth looking into :)...Does anyone else
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have any
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AFL Dyfet suggestions or recommendations?
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AFL Vince Morgan Davis and Dan Gookin'sd books are worthwhile to look at.
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AFL Dyfet GA Phil...and thank you Vince...
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AE PhilM Never hurts to study the example code that Apple makes available
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AE PhilM done
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AFL Dyfet That is true, Phil...GA JMC...
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JMCPHD were is the sample code Phil?
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AE PhilM ? (incase you forgot :))
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AE PhilM Its available thru APDA.
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Coach101 !
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Matt DTS It's also online in this forum.
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Coach101 -!
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AFL Dyfet GA Coach....and no, Phil, you haven't been forgotten...
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Matt DTS <sorry Coach>
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Coach101 Matt took the words from me again! :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, my node is a little slow :)...I believe our next question is
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from A2GS,
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AFL Dyfet GA.
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A2GS How much of an improvement in GS/OS 5.0 boot time is there?
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS It depends on how you look at things.
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Matt DTS By the clock, not much. It actually takes a little longer.
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A2GS why??
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Matt DTS Just under the surface, quite a bit: 5.0 actually loads between
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two to four times as much information
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Matt DTS from the disk at boot time, but only takes a few more seconds to
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do it. <ga>
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A2GS huh?
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AFL Dyfet This is very true, Matt, and impressive :)
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AFL Dyfet Basically, A2GS, it loads 3 times as much from disk in about the
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same ammount
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AFL Dyfet of time as 4.0 took.
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A2GS I don't quite follow, if a lot of the RAM tools are now in ROM it
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should be
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A2GS faster.
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Matt DTS Oh, you didn't *say* you meant on the new machine.
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A2GS sorry :)
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Matt DTS Boot time (time to load the OS before the program is launched) is
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about the same, but a little less
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A2GS thought that's what we were mainly discussing.
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Matt DTS since the patch file TS3 is smaller than TS2. However, when
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programs are launched, there's a much
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Matt DTS more noticeable difference, since most or all of the desktop tools
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don't have to be loaded from disk.
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Matt DTS I've not compared a new machine to a ROM 01 GS booting the same
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disk, so I can't quote figures.
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Matt DTS Sorry. GA>
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AFL Dyfet Well, we started out scheduled for C and Pascal, A2GS, so :)...I
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believe the
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A2GS Does the outside of the machine look the same as our current
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lovable gs?
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A2GS sorry. :)
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AFL Dyfet That's okay, A2GS...I'm curious too, now :)
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Dave Lyons !
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons Yes, looks the same from the outside.
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Dave Lyons (ga)
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JimMensch !
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AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
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Coach101 Darn, I wanted one with Scullye's signature :)
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JimMensch Well, I just did the definative boot test here at my desk...
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AFL Marty (You can make an "X" yourself, Coach :)
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A2GS hehe
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JimMensch I started both machines into self test, then cold started them
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both at the exact moment
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A2GS and....
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JimMensch and the *new* GS boots into the finder almost 1.5 seconds faster
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(not even 10%...)... GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next questionis from AFA Parik. GA Parik.
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A2GS too bad,done,thanks. :( :) (mixed feelings)
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AFA Parik In 5.0, are lower case files supposed to be at the end of a
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alphabet list with
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AFA Parik deluxepaint II, etc that use old SF tools? ga (done) afk :)
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JimMensch !
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AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
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A2GS !
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JimMensch Parik, thats an..... well... an oversight.... (as matt loves to
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point out...
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JimMensch we know about that problem also. sorry. GA
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AFL Dyfet A2GS, Ga...
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A2GS never mind Jim just mentioned it :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay....I believe our next question is from Phil, GA Phil...
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AE PhilM Whenever I issue a MIDI control call to play or record I have to
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reset my Casio
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JimMensch !
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AE PhilM HT 700 by turning it off and on again, this happens in Audio
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Animator and MSJR
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AE PhilM but the problem does not occur on the DX7.
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AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
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JimMensch You can try to alter your packet timming (delay between packets)
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the casios can get confused if
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JimMensch you send MIDI data at full speed.
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AE PhilM !
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AFL Dyfet GA Phil...
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AE PhilM Jim this doesnt happen once I turn it off an on again...it will
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accept whatever
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JimMensch it will lose the very start of some packets (bit 7) and assume you
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are using running satatus.. GA
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AE PhilM I send it after that? Any suggestions ??
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AE PhilM Oh OK...I'll try that. Thanks!
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from AFL Scott...GA
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Scott...
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AFL Scott If a classic GS bombs in about 5 months so, needing motherboard
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replacement...
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AFL Scott will dealers replace the old motherboard with the new one?
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JimMensch !
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AFL Scott should read, or so.... :)
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AFL Dyfet This would seem logical in my mind, since I wouldn't expect them
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to keep dual
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AFL Dyfet inventories once production is in swing and the old one is phased
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out...GA
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AFL Dyfet Jim...
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JimMensch no way to say for sure how long dealers will stock both mother
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boards.. after all they didn't
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Coach101 !
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JimMensch automatically upgrade IIc's in service when the mem expansion came
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out.
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JimMensch ga
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Coach...
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Coach101 It would be a dangerous swap. A new motherboard would
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invalidate
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JimMensch !
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Coach101 a number of existing memory expansion port cards.. i.e., fix
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the
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Coach101 motherboard and wait for a new memory card/PAL from a third
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party
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Coach101 supplier.
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Coach101 ga
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AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
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JimMensch What coach says is probably true, since mem boards may not be
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compatible I think we will be forced to
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JimMensch supply both boards for quite some time.
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JimMensch ga
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AFL Scott (Followup)
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AFL Dyfet GA Scott...
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AFL Marty (-?)
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AFL Scott Does Apple's GS Memory expansion card work with the new
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motherboard? Is ther
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AFL Scott e an anticipated upgrade?
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JimMensch !
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Matt DTS !
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AFL Dyfet Jim seems to have it first :)...GA Jim...
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AFL Scott Upgrade memory wise... I know about the no upgrade policy for the
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mommy board.
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JimMensch Apples memory expansion works just fine with the new motherboard,
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and so do some third party boards
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JimMensch its just that some third party boards do not work... as if they
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pgrade. Ask them. GA
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AFL Scott I was only referring to the Apple Board. Thanks!
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AFL Dyfet Okay, see that A2GS has the floor again..GA A2gs...
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A2GS How can we tell when we're using a "new" GS does the bootup screen
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say REV.ROM3
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Matt DTS !
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS Actually, yes. Where the current GS says "ROM Version 01", the
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new one says "ROM Version 3". GA.
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A2GS Done, (for the moment) :)
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AFL Dyfet Did we miss 02 in there somewhere? :)...Okay, I believe the next
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question is
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AFL Dyfet from Phil...GA Phil...
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AE PhilM Just curious...I assume that Discovery is no longer
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appropriate...so how DO we
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AE PhilM refer to the *new* GS (identity crisis)
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A2GS !
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AE PhilM done
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AFL Dyfet GA A2gs...
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Coach101 That is a "Matt approved" WYRM :)
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A2GS Should work like what COKE did...there's the "classic GS" and the
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"New GS" :)
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AFL Dyfet :)
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AFA Parik so will people prefer the classic? :)
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John moyln (I doubt it...)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I see we have reached the end of the que, so I will throw
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the floor
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AFL Dyfet open to all! :)
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Doctor Why can we expect a diet version? :)
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A2GS :)
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AFL Dyfet (Don't all speak up at once :)
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John moyln well, I for one will "accidentally" short my gs if I have to get
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the new mother
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John moyln board,t he switchable slots, and larger ROM are well worth it...
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JimMensch I think since the old GS only had 256K of mb RAM it should be
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called the "Diet GS"
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A2GS Sounds good to me!
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AFL Dyfet GS lite, Jim? :)
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JimMensch John, you will get the same motherboard you currently have...
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AFA Parik yup, the wonders of Applecare! heheh
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Doctor Why Less filling!
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Coach101 Why does 5.0 RPM seem to forget how to talk to an AppleTalk
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printer?
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AFA Parik tastes bodacious!
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John moyln (willt ake it to a dealer that I know, Jim...)
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AE PhilM BTW - TWGS and Vulcan work just fine in the *new* GS....the GS
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Ram, GS Ram+,
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Matt DTS Be more specific, Coach.
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AE PhilM and Ramkeeper will require PAL upgrades.
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JimMensch John, he will get the same board from Apple that he sends in...
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John moyln (ie. is willing to do that kind of swap...)
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AFA Parik really Jim? bummer.
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Coach101 Unless I visit the control panel AppleTalk/ImageWriter Cdev
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before
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AE PhilM Ramkeeper will also require a new EPROM.
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A2GS Would anyone say that for a developer, having a new GS is
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necessary?
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Coach101 going into APW, APW cannot seem to find the printer in slot-7.
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John moyln well if thats the case, just order a motherboard from CDA, they'll
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get some
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John moyln sooner or later...
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JimMensch Coach, install Appleshare on the boot disk and that will go
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away...
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Coach101 No complaint, it just takes a long time to flush everything into
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the
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AE PhilM A2GS - if anything just to make sure you are compatible with it
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Coach101 bit bucket.....
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JimMensch he he he...
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