520 lines
22 KiB
Plaintext
520 lines
22 KiB
Plaintext
AppleLink
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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December 27, 1988 10:00 pm Eastern
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Topic: Apple II Operating Systems
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Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim)
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AFL Jim Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. I hope you're have a
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AFL Jim season! Tonight, the beginning topic of discussion is Apple II
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Operating System
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AFL Jim s
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AFL Jim ^ a hanging s
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AFA Gary J :)
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Uhura Lonely little s
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ScottG25 I got a turbo mouse, a desk, and a radio controlled car..
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AFL Jim ANyone have any questions to start the discussion off?
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Uhura B-P
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Uhura How do you write an FST (in 25 words or less) B-)
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THE GIBBER You don't ;)
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Dave Lyons You don't--and if you do, it takes more than 25 words
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AFL Jim Ask Apple politely, Uhura
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THE GIBBER Just a few more....David....
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Dave Lyons I can to it in 6 words: "Apple, PLEASE write a _____ FST."
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ScottG25 LOL!!
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SteveDodd Yes, like AppleWorks GS or DIcED if you click on a file it auto
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load the prog +
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THE GIBBER LOL.... How bout this one...... When is the volume 2 of the GSOS
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reference
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AFL Jim What FST (File System Translators) for GS/OS is everyone waiting
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for?
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THE GIBBER going to be avaliable?????
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SteveDodd plus the file. Does the OS support this ? if so how ?
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Uhura DOS 3.2 :)
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THE GIBBER HFS
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AFA Gary J Right, Uhura... :)
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DennisDoms MS-DOS
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Dave Lyons Santa, I want FSTs for HFS, MFS, DOS 3.3, Pascal.
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AFL Jim OK, Steve first...
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Dave Lyons Steve D, the MessageCenter is the mechanism that supports passing
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the pathnames
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ScottG25 HFS... Hmmm. I almost said MFS... only I didn't...never
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mind...:)
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AFA Gary J Q = Steve
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Dave Lyons of programs to Open and Print; message type #1 is defined & used
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by the Finder
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AFA Gary J Q = Steve (Dave)
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Dave Lyons and by any applications that choose to support it, including AWGS,
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DIcEd, and
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Dave Lyons probably lots of others. (DIcEd won't actually print, but it'll
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tell you that
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Dave Lyons it can't. Printing is done by selecting icons in the Finder and
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choosing
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Dave Lyons Print from the File menu.)
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Dave Lyons (ga!)
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Dave Lyons [Oh--I believe MessageCenter -is- described in the final
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Addison/Wesley tbox
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Dave Lyons ref, vol II, under the tool locator chapter.]
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AFL Jim John, you're question is next. Volume II of the GS/OS manual is
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still being
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AFL Jim revised to get it to APDA beta level.
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ScottG25 ?
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AFL Jim We should see it sometime very soon.
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AFA Gary J Q = Scott
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AFL Jim Scott, a question (GA)
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ScottG25 I was just going to ask if anyone has seen the manual, but
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realized that if you
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ScottG25 have you couldn't say anything about it... sorry. :(
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AFL Jim It looks much like Volume 1 on the outside ;)
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DwightW1 ?
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ScottG25 Paper, eh?
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AFA Gary J Q = Dwight
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AFL Jim GA Dwight
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THE GIBBER ?
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AFA Gary J Q = Dwight, GIBBER
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DwightW1 my question is very basic......
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DwightW1 how do you get gs/os up and operating from a hard disk drive?
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Dave Lyons Use the Installer!
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Dave Lyons (It's on the 2nd disk you get.) The trick is that if you have a
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SCSI drive,
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Dave Lyons first you need to boot up a copy of GS/OS that has the right
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driver installed,
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Dave Lyons which means you need to use the Installer to install that driver
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on a 3.5"
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Dave Lyons copy of the system disk, reboot with that, and then use the
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Installer again,
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Dave Lyons now that the system sees your hard drive.
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Dave Lyons (did that help?)
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AFA Gary J Q = Dwight (Dave), GIBBER
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AFL Jim Dave, that's only needed if you're going to use Apple's SCSI card.
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GS/OS builds
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HdRockCafe (evening)
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AFL Jim a generic driver that should work with most other hard drives.
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DwightW1 ....plenty....i must hav missed this in the instructions
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AFL Jim (like the Chinook I'm using).
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Dave Lyons Right--I should have said "Apple SCSI card" above, not SCSI drive.
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You'll need
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Dave Lyons the above trickiness only in cases where you need a special driver
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to get
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AFL Jim Dwight, check out the paperback manual, "Apple IIGS System Tools"
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that comes
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Dave Lyons GS/OS to recognize your drive.
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HdRockCafe ?
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AFA Gary J Q = Dwight, GIBBER, HdRockCafe
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AFL Jim with GS/OS from your dealer. It has step-by-step instructions for
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Installer.
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HdRockCafe Ok
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DwightW1 will do...thanks!
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AFL Jim John, you have the next question. GA
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THE GIBBER How bout updates to the toolbox manuals for GSOS... And A GSOS
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specific APW?
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THE GIBBER any Ideas?
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AFL Jim !
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AFA Gary J Q = GIBBER (Jim), HdRockCafe
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AFL Jim There is an update to the toolbox manuals available from APDA.
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SteveDodd ?
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AFL Jim I'm sure Mike Westerfield is working on a GS/OS update to ORCA
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(same as APW).
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DwightW1 ...except that it is not available...
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AFA Gary J Q = GIBBER (Jim), HdRockCafe, Steve
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THE GIBBER I must have overlooked that one in my Apdalog ;)
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THE GIBBER thanks ga
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AFL Jim It was when I ordered it, Dwight.
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AFL Jim HdRockCafe, you have the next question.
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HdRockCafe I am very frustrated, I have been trying to use the Apple
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operating system disk
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ScottG25 Funny, I got mine from them!
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DwightW1 i want it also, talked with apda..
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AFA Gary J Q = HdRock, Steve
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DwightW1 said it is in print
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Coach101 ?
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AFA Gary J Q = HdRock, Steve, Coach
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HdRockCafe and I need some help, can anyone suggest where I can get some
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tutors?
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HdRockCafe or a good beginners book
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Dave Lyons !
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HdRockCafe ga
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AFL Jim Which operating system ProDOS or GS/OS?
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HdRockCafe Well any of them, I just don't know how the operate
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AFA Gary J Q = HdRock (Jim, Dave), Steve, Coach
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HdRockCafe I would like to beable to do some simple tasks using the operating
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systems
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Dave Lyons Do you have the "Apple IIgs system disk users guide" or
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whatever?
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Scapino Can you be more.....specific?
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AFA Gary J From a programmers standpoint, or just with existing
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applications?
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HdRockCafe Yes, I am the IIGS system disk guide, I would like to work with
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existing
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HdRockCafe applications
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HdRockCafe opps I have
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Dave Lyons :)
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AFL Jim Do you want to program with the operating system or just use the
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Finder?
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AFA Gary J Q = HdRock, Steve, Coach
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HdRockCafe Jim, I don't even know this Difference :)
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HdRockCafe Don't LAUGH
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HdRockCafe :)
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AFL Jim Well... the manuals that come with the system are the only thing
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I've see that
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AFL Jim tell you how to use the applications supplied by Apple (the
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Finder, Installer,
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AFL Jim etc). If you want to start programming with Apple's operating
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systems, there
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AFL Jim are several good books published by both Apple (through
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Addison-Wesley) and by
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AFL Jim others. For using the operating system from BASIC, you might want
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to get
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AFL Jim "ProDOS Inside and Out" byt Dennis Doms and Tom Wieshaar. It
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explains the
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AFL Jim commands and gives lots of programming examples.
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AFL Jim Gary Little should have a new book out sometime in the next couple
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of months on
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AFA Gary J Q = HdRock, Steve, Coach
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AFL Jim programming with ProDOS and GS/OS. It is a total rewrite of his
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older book,
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AFL Jim "Apple ProDOS: Advanced Features for Programmers"
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HdRockCafe Thanks for the informations, next time I will try to be more
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specific w/?. :)
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AFL Jim Dave, do you have anything to add?
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Dave Lyons Nope, you dun good :)
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AFL Jim OK, Steve. GA with your question.
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SteveDodd I have the toolbox vol ii open, could you give me a brief:) view
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of how to pass
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AFA Gary J Q = Steve, Coach
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AFA Parik ?
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SteveDodd parameters with the "MessageCenter" ie
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action,type,messageHandle?
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AFA Gary J Q = Steve, Coach, Parik
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AFL Jim GA Dave, you've worked with this more than I have.
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SteveDodd and what are the different ranges for these types! :)
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SteveDodd I have orca/pascal
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Dave Lyons Ok, just a sec here....
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Dave Lyons There are 3 things you can do: post a message, get a message, and
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delete a
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AFL Jim chapter 24, Dave
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AFL Jim :)
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SteveDodd page 24-14
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Dave Lyons message. The first parameter is 1, 2, or 3 to specify add, get,
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delete,
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Dave Lyons respectively.
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Dave Lyons For all of these things, you need a message id number from 1 to
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$ffff, and the
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Dave Lyons only currently-defined type is 1, which is used for passing a list
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of pathnames
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Dave Lyons to applications from Finder-like things. (Types 2 and 3 are also
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used by the
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Dave Lyons Finder, but they are not documented & are subject to change.)
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Now, to post a
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Dave Lyons message you need to have your data in a memory block that has been
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allocated
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Dave Lyons thru the memory manager, so you have a handle to it. You pass the
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handle as
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Dave Lyons the 3rd parameter to MessageCenter (the msg id was the second
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parameter). The
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Dave Lyons memory block with your message starts with 4 reserved bytes (room
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for 1 pointer
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Dave Lyons ) and a 2-byte copy of the message ID (an "integer" in a
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high-level language);
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AFA Gary J Q = Steve, Coach, Parik
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Dave Lyons then you can have as many bytes of actual data as you want (well,
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up to 64K,
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Dave Lyons I think). In Pascal, you would declare something like TYPE
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MessageRec = RECORD
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Dave Lyons Next: longint; MessType: integer; MessData: [whatever] END; TYPE
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MessagePtr =
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Dave Lyons ^MessageRec. For getting a message, you just need a handle to
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any memory
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Dave Lyons block, possibly even a zero-byte-long memory block, and the
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MessageCenter
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AFA Gary J Q = Steve (Dave), Coach, Parik
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Dave Lyons resizes your handle's block to whatever size is needed & copies
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the message
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Dave Lyons into it. Questions?
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AFL Jim !
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AFA Gary J GA Jim
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AFL Jim So, an application should make a call to MessageCenter with a
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getmessage call
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SteveDodd Thanks! great, next how easy is it to write GS/OS installer
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scripts ?
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AFA Parik !
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AFL Jim before doing anything else to see if it should load or print a
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file. Right,
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AFL Jim Dave?
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Dave Lyons Right--you mean like asking the user what file to open? Yes, it
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should check
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Dave Lyons the MessageCenter first.
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AFA Gary J Q = Steve (Dave, Jim, Parik), Coach, Parik
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AFL Jim Sounds easy.
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Dave Lyons Steve, installer scrips should be pretty easy to write--there is a
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document
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Dave Lyons someplace describing the format; I don't know if it was just sent
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to
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Dave Lyons certified developers or what. Anybody remember?
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AFA Parik Yup
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AFA Parik the APDA version should have it also
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ScottG25 It's in the release notes, no?
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AFL Jim It comes with the "Apple IIGS System Disk 4.0" from APDA.
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AFA Parik not the boxed edition Scott.
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ScottG25 Ok, thanks!
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SteveDodd Thanks, it's great to get such a good answer, If anyone wants to
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buy TML pascal
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SteveDodd let me know after forum Ive got orca, ga
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AFL Jim OK, Coach. Your turn to ask a question. GA
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik
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THE GIBBER ?
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Coach101 I may have missed it in the previous conversation, but...
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik, John
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Coach101 How the heck do you train finder to know what application
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Coach101 to invoke for a given document? ga
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Dave Lyons ! (!!!!!)
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AFL Jim GA Dave
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Dave Lyons Well, the _manual_ says the Finder will figure it out by itself if
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you double-
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Dave Lyons click on a document of a certain type, get the complaint that it
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doesn't know
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Dave Lyons what to run for that kind of document, and then launch the right
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applicatin
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Dave Lyons yourself next; but I believe this has not been implemented. (Yell
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if you know
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Dave), Parik, John
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AFA Parik !
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Dave Lyons differently!) SO--what you do is use an ICON EDITOR like my DIcEd
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(Desktop
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Dave Lyons Icon Editor, avail in AUT libraries, Shareware for $15), or Paul
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Elseth's
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Dave Lyons IconEd, also Shareware for $15 and available in the same place.
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You create
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THE GIBBER (blatent plug)
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Dave Lyons an icon matching a particular filetype and/or auxiliary type
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and/or filename
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AFL Jim (hehehe)
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AFA Gary J hehe
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SteveDodd !
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Dave Lyons pattern, and you fill in "application pathname" = the name of the
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progam
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Dave Lyons the Finder should run when you Open or Print that kind of
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document. ga
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Dave, Parik, Steve), Parik, John
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AFL Jim Parik, a comment? GA
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THE GIBBER !
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AFA Parik Is that what the AppleWorks GS 2nd installer does?
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Coach101 Thanks.... It does not appear to be implemented in the
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Coach101 "for sale" GsOs. Thanks for the info.....
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Parik, Steve, John), Parik, John
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Dave Lyons Parik, dunno but can check. Just installed AWGS today, and I did
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it myself
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Dave Lyons before I realized they provided installer scripts! :)
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ScottG25 !
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AFA Parik :-) dave
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AFA Parik (Real programmers don't use scripts? :)
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AFL Jim Steve, do you have a comment?
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Steve, John, Scott), Parik, John
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Coach101 Scripts are for "slotless" computers!
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SteveDodd yes, scripts are very powerful !! the are used by many
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programmers!
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AFL Jim OK John, GA with your comment.
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THE GIBBER If you fill out the application launch the application will
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launch; however
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THE GIBBER correct me if I am wrong... It will run the application, but won't
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open the
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Dave Lyons (Real Programmers would rather know exactly what files have been
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copied where,
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Dave Lyons so they do it from their favorite command shell....)
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THE GIBBER file. You have the application running but the file isn't
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loaded.... at least
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THE GIBBER that is what has happened when I have tried that route ga :)
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AFL Jim John, that is correct unless the application supports the
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MessageCenter calls
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AFL Jim we were discussing earlier.
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AFL Jim Scott, your comment... GA
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SteveDodd They can be used for debugging purposes, and burning in systems I
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know Apollo
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SteveDodd Computer uses them!
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ScottG25 Geez you guys are good, you both got my comment in two swoops!!:)
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GA
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik, John
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Dave Lyons !
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AFL Jim Dave, GA
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SteveDodd I agree the scripts should let you know what is being copied ! if
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not I think
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SteveDodd that they are poorly written!!!
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Dave Lyons BTW, BASIC.LAUNCHER is another application that recognizes the
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MessageCenter;
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Dave Lyons it passes the first pathname along to BASIC.SYSTEM's startup
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buffer (the old
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Coach101 Let me know what was copied and deleted in a file or
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Dave Lyons convention for ProDOS 8 SYS files). I think it does this even if
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you choose
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Coach101 hardcopy. I sure like to know who changed waht!
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Dave Lyons Print after selecting a BASIC program, actually :) It still just
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runs it. ga
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik, John
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AFL Jim Parik, your turn to question. GA
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AFA Parik Can anyone tell me how to turn off the cursor in the Orca & APW
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shells? I
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AFA Parik wrote a utility for Orca that uses the GS/OS disk access calls,
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and when its
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AFA Parik the users turn to change the filetype, you use the arrow keys to
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change it.
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AFA Parik Well, the cursor gets in the way and it looks sort of ugly, I
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moved the cursor
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AFL Jim !
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AFA Parik out a little but its still blemished. :)
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Jim), John
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AFA Parik (I've tried $E0C000, _Readchar, and $E0C00F)
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AFL Jim Print a ASCII $05, Parik.
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AFA Parik Aha. Thanks!
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AFL Jim (or $85)
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AFL Jim $06 or $86 is cursor on.
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Dave Lyons BTW, at leat one manual has the $05 and $06 (ctrl-e and ctrl-f)
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BACKWARDS, so
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AFL Jim $05 or $85 is cursor off.
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Dave Lyons try it the other way if it doesn't work. The Firmware manual, I
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think.
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AFL Jim I always find it fastest in Gary Little's "Exploring..." book.
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AFA Parik Ok, will do. Thanks
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AFA Gary J Q = John
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AFL Jim John, you have the last official question. GA
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THE GIBBER This is totally off track..... I haven't published anything I
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have programmed
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AFL Jim (what track? :)
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AFA Gary J :)
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THE GIBBER now that I am getting serious about it I am in the process of
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becoming
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THE GIBBER Certified with Apple.... However I am running into problems
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......Like the
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THE GIBBER business plan....What do they want on that.... I am getting
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conflicting
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THE GIBBER opinoins on that subject....some say to make it a formal document
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and others
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THE GIBBER say to make it very informal..... Can someone give a poor
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programmer some
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THE GIBBER advise on this matter?
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THE GIBBER ga
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AFL Jim Hmmm... that's a good question that I'm not sure what to tell you
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on. I know
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AFA Gary J Q = John
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AFL Jim people that are certified on shareware and that doens't take very
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much of a
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AFL Jim formal business plan. I think the general idea is to prove to
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Apple that you're
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AFL Jim serious about marketing a product for Apple computers. Once you've
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done that,
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AFL Jim they'll be ready to help.
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THE GIBBER It is just that I am getting conflicting statements on that
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part.... I
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Dave Lyons !
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AFL Jim ga Dave
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Dave Lyons Yes, if you're _already_ distributing a product, you _don't_ need
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a business
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DwightW1 IN talking about certification...i've been told apple is
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only....
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Dave Lyons plan. You might want to describe your product as "private
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direct-mail sales
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Dave Lyons from home" or something rather than "Shareware" (but who knows,
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maybe that's
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Dave Lyons Nth-hand info, where N is too large.... :)
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THE GIBBER Have a 50 hour week and I use most of the rest of the time on the
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computer so
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AFA Parik Try putting your goals, expenditures, and any profits you hope to
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have. They
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AFA Parik will return the form if you do not have enough information, and
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ask you to send
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AFA Parik it back.
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THE GIBBER not much time left for other stuff
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DwightW1 interested in Mac programmers,....is this true?
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AFL Jim Not true Dwight.
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DwightW1 ...thank the lord!
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THE GIBBER The last time I was on the phone with developer services (to get
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the
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AFA Gary J Q = John
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THE GIBBER application) They asked me what the main thrust of the development
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was and I
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THE GIBBER said Apple //gs and they really pleased.....They said that they
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were looking
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THE GIBBER for more //gs development.
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THE GIBBER ga
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AFL Jim Apple has been advertising for both Apple II and Mac Engineers
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lately and I
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AFL Jim know several Apple II programmers that have been hired there
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recently.
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AFL Jim They are interested both inside and outside the company.
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AFA Parik (I hear whole staffs of online employees have been employed :-)
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AFL Jim for something called AppleLink I think, Parik.
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THE GIBBER LOL
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Coach101 ?
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AFL Jim GA Caoch
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AFL Jim Coach (oops)
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AFA Parik I thought it was McDonalds...:)
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ScottG25 LOL, Parik!!
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THE GIBBER I am in a den of Certified Developers ahhhhhghhghghgh!!!!!!!! ;)
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Coach101 Dumb one again.... AUT libraries? Translation please
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DwightW1 ...at least it sounds good for the //gs programmer
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AFA Gary J That's MAC Donalds, Parik
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AFA Parik hehe
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AFL Jim AppleLink Apple II Utilities Forum Libraries.
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AFL Jim = AUT
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SteveDodd ?
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Coach101 Thanks....
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Dave Lyons Coach, that means you can hit Apple-K, AUT, return, and then
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choose Software
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Dave Lyons Libraries to get there.
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AFL Jim Use the keyword AUT to get there fast.
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AFL Jim GA Steve
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SteveDodd Do you know if apple is working on improving APW C?
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AFL Jim No word, Steve.
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THE GIBBER I had a friend that was programming a "Database, Learning, and
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Telecom" program
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THE GIBBER He was going to call it "Mac DLT" ;)
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AFA Parik haha
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AFL Jim I'd like to thank you all for coming to this conference tonight.
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Stick around
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AFL Jim and chat as long as you want.
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Coach101 re: APW C: They still have not found that sysCall != SysCall
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AFA Gary J He'd probably have trademark problems with that one, John! :)
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DwightW1 dave, jim i want to thank you for the info received..really
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appreciate it
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SteveDodd ditto
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THE GIBBER NO..............;)
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AFL Jim Coach, C is case sensitive.
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Dave Lyons Dwight, you're welcome.
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AFL Jim Dwight, anytime!
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AFA Parik Thanks for the cursor info. :)
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THE GIBBER Dave.....The info you gave was as good as goal..... A regular
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fountian of info
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SteveDodd I just find that APW C is just to slow !
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Dave Lyons (You too, Steve, if that ditto was referring to Dwight's thanx.)
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Coach101 I know that.... Look at CINCLUDES/GSOS.H in the latest APDA
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Coach101 release. It does not know it!
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AFL Jim Anyone want the address for Developer Services (to ask about
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certification
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AFL Jim info)?
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DwightW1 well...good night....will tell you how i come out with gs/os on my
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hard drive
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Dave Lyons Yes, Jim, and the GSOS.H does have the problem Coach is talking
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about!
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AFA Parik Night Dwight!
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THE GIBBER <--------Waiting on Transwarp GS before tackling C compiling :)
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Coach101 Why not
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ScottG25 Gibber... Good reason!!:)
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AFA Gary J Goodnight, Dwight
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SteveDodd I am spoiled, I program on a sequent computer at school the C
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implementation is
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SteveDodd much better!
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DwightW1 oh...decided to stick around for that address
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THE GIBBER Should be out in January...... if those guys at AE didn't give my
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dealership
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AFL Jim Developer Programs, Apple Computer, Inc. 20525 Mariani, MS-51W,
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|
Cupertino, CA
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AFL Jim 95014
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THE GIBBER the wrong information
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DwightW1 telephone #?
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AFA Parik I can imagine it now, The Transwarp GS and the new set of
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|
technotes on my
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AFA Parik door in January at the same time...:-)
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THE GIBBER Goodnight.....folks.... I have to get off the net now.....
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:Parik
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AFA Parik Night Jon!
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AFL Jim Phone number is... (408) 974-4897
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