textfiles/ufo/kfyi.ufo

                              TRANSCRIPT:
                        The Earl Baldwin Show
                     Wednesday, August 18th, 1988
                              KFYI Radio
                  Guests: Richard Hall, Jim Speiser

Transcript begins approx. 7:15PM

EB:     ...this hour, we have the author of a book with us, it says
        "Top Secret" on the cover, and I don't know, I've read a lot of
        the secrets in here. "Uninvited Guests", its a "documented
        history of UFO sightings, alien encounters, and cover-ups." And
        the author is Richard Hall. Richard is with us here on The Talk
        Station via the telephone. Hello, Richard Hall!

RH:     Hi. How're you doing?

EB:     Pretty good. And we have in studio, Jim [Speezer], or is it
        Speiser? Speiser...who is a ufologist, and director of ParaNet,
        which is a computer Bulletin Board of explorers of the
        paranormal...a network, I guess, of all those people who are
        comparing data [such] as you have in your book. Your book is a
        compendium of all of the reports correlated here in different
        categories, from "Close Encounters of the Vehicular Kind" to
        bodies in the morgue, humanoids, and big secrets and other...uh,
        what gave you the idea for doing this, Richard Hall?

RH:     The idea for doing it was that the public at large has had very
        little in the way of current, honest sources of information on
        this subject for many years now, and their primary source of
        information, very regrettably, has been the tabloid newspapers.
        The conventional news media do not give adequate coverage of the
        subject, so I felt it was time to do an update, pulling together
        the most impressive information, and (whether impressive or not)
        the currently reliable information on the subject. So that's
        what I tried to do.

EB:     Now isn't this a case of, "where there's smoke there's fire,"
        the idea, with all this smoke there must be a flame somewhere?
        With all of the reports, and many of them seem to correlate,
        most people who sight spaceships seem to give the same general
        description. Most people who see lifeforms coming from
        spaceships, or assuming they come from some kind of
        extraterrestrial vehicle or transportation, put them in similar
        categories, and, are we saying, because these things have gone
        on for many, many years now, and seem to correlate from
        different sources, different countries, and come up with the
        same kinds of general observations, that there must be something
        to it?

RH:     Yes, indeed. I think that's exactly right. I think if we'd had
        all these reports over the years, and they were of 90,000
        different sightings, and no two were alike, you know, you could
        write it off as some kind of psychological phenomenon or
        whatever, but we do indeed have all these converging patterns,
        very STRONG patterns, in fact, of exactly, similar descriptions
        from people worlds apart, continents apart, all walks of life,
        and it tells a very important picture here of some real
        phenomenon going on that has not been adequately investigated.

EB:     What disturbs me is the fact that it has NOT been adequately
        investigated, and that there seems to be a pattern of covering
        up; that, if there is something to this, the government - the
        military in particular - doesn't seem to want anybody else to
        have the information.

RH:     Yes.

EB:     And why is that?

RH:     Well, one can only speculate. But the case I build in my book is
        that, sometime back several decades ago, the government and/or
        the...at least the military services found very strong evidence
        of what we will call extraterrestrial visitation, for lack of a
        better term - some kind of intrusion into our airspace by
        mysterious, unexplainable objects and apparently humanoid
        beings. And they really didn't know how to cope with this. It
        was not really treated as a scientific problem, it was treated
        as a national security problem. Who are these beings, what are
        these craft, where are they coming from? Are they about to
        attack us or what? But there was no evidence of any kind of
        invasion per se. So the military forces were stuck with a
        problem that they really couldn't cope with. Now there's much
        more to it than that, which I'll be glad to get into, but
        that's as short an answer as I can give to such a complex
        question.

EB:     Let me ask our guest, Jim Speiser...how did you get an interest,
        or develop an interest in UFOs, extraterrestrials, and the like?

JS:     I got an interest in it from way back, about 1966. I was a young
        boy and I read all of the pulp magazines, etc. Kinda lost
        interest up until college, when I learned of the "skeptical
        side" of things. From there on I proceeded from a skeptical
        point of view, as I pursued many other facets of the so-called
        "paranormal": ghosts, ESP, etc. [But] it soon came to my
        attention that the skeptical information I was getting on UFOs -
        that they didn't exist, that they couldn't possibly be here,
        that they've been explained in other ways - I slowly came to the
        realization that those explanations were not quite as
        scientifically based as the skeptics would have us believe. And
        so I said, "Wait a second. If our best debunkers and skeptics
        can't explain these cases, or have to resort to way-out
        left-field explanations that make the `alien' theory look
        ridiculous, maybe there really IS some fire behind the smoke."

EB:     Was there any one, or two or three, basic incidents that
        convinced you there was something out there? or up there?

JS:     Well, I remember the particular turning point in my mind was the
        Helicopter-UFO Incident over Mansfield, Ohio in 1973,
        and...that's a case where the best debunker in the world, Philip
        Klass, as far as I can see, really dropped the ball. He tried to
        explain this thing as a "bolide", or meteor, that lasted some one
        minute and twenty seconds, which...I've called dozens of
        meteorologists, astronomers, experts...[and] no one can tell me
        that a meteor could possibly last a minute and twenty seconds.

EB:     OK, and, Richard Hall, the author of "Uninvited Guests", was
        there one turning point, one "ah-HA!" factor for you that said,
        "there must be something to this?"

RH:     I'm not sure I can pin it down to one precise case, but I think
        one category of reports that impressed me highly was reports by
        professional pilots, military and civilian professional pilots,
        airline pilots, Air Force pilots... and I have over the years
        talked to many, many of them, face to face. Reports sometimes
        that they don't put on public record, because they fear
        ridicule. But their reports are being investigated by Dr.
        Richard Haines at NASA-Ames Research Center, and I think they're
        a very impressive category of reports.

EB:     Mm-hmm. And, uh, some of the movies, like "Close Encounters of
        the Third Kind," "ET," and like that, they've done a lot of
        research, which seems to be parallelled by a lot of the stories,
        this documented history that you present in your book "Uninvited
        Guests." Do you think that Steven Spielberg, for example, was
        borrowing from the same basic materials that you've used in your
        book, to background his films?

RH:     Yes. Steven Spielberg had some contact with the Center for UFO
        Studies, which was headed by Dr. J. Allen Hynek, and did indeed
        borrow from the UFO literature, but I think he expanded beyond
        that and took a few "artistic liberties," shall we say...went a
        little beyond the legitimate database, but indeed he was
        borrowing from it.

EB:     OK, because I notice that, "Close Encounters," I notice a lot of
        the lights and the sightings and the shapes of the humanoids
        seem to correlate with a lot of the actual sightings that are
        documented in your book.

RH:     Right.

[Commercial Break]

[Transcript picks up when Speiser is talking to Baldwin about Senator
Goldwater incident. Tape started late...]

JS:     ...confirmed to ParaNet that he was not allowed access to
        records where UFO information was kept.

EB:     Why? Isn't he...

JS:     That is a good question....

EB:     ...a high muckety-muck, or was...

RH:     He didn't have a high enough security clearance.

EB:     ...a member of the Senate, head of the Armed Services Committee,
        whatever he was the head of, a top-secret clearance...

JS:     He was head of just about every possible Senate committee that
        would have oversight powers over anything that would have
        anything to do with foreign technology, alien technology,
        space...he was head of just about everything that would come
        under that venue.

EB:     Is there any member of [the] Senate, or of the President's
        Cabinet, who would be allowed...I mean, the head of the Armed
        Services on the President's Cabinet, the head of Defense, the
        Defense Secretary, rather, wouldn't that person be allowed...?

JS:     Well, any answer I give would only be speculation, we don't know
        who has the clearance... Dick might have a better aspect than I
        do on that...

RH:     Well, I'm in the same boat. We really don't know who has been
        told what, you know. All we know is that increasing
        documentation from the past suggests that there has been a
        tightly-held secret by a group called MJ-12...

EB:     MJ-12?

RH:     Yes, MJ-12, which was a group of very high, highly placed
        political leaders and scientists, back when they allegedly first
        got some kind of physical evidence. And this was just between
        the President (then Harry Truman) and this group of scientists.
        And it was very tightly-held. Other members of the
        Administration were not told, other military leaders were not
        told, other politicians were not told, so we just don't know.
        Assuming that's true in the first place, which we don't really
        know, although there's suggestive evidence of it...assuming
        that's true, then we don't know where it went from there...what
        has become of this evidence, who has been clued in and who
        hasn't. So its very much up in the air. But there's enough
        suggestive evidence and leads here that we only wish that we
        could get some high-powered investigative reporters involved, to
        really dig into this, because, you know, we could certainly
        provide some very substantial leads to them that they could have
        a ball with.

EB:     Well now, in your appendix, Appendix B here, you have a briefing
        document of Operation Majestic-12 that was "prepared for [then-]
        President Dwight David Eisenhower," back in November of 1952,
        and it says "Copy 001 of 001," which means this was the only
        copy ever made? "Top Secret" is crossed out and "Eyes-Only"
        crossed out on my copy, in the book. Can't you get in trouble
        for even copying this, or publishing this?

RH:     No, no.

EB:     Why? says "Top Secret"!

RH:     Civilians are not subject to this kind of thing. If I were a
        member of the military and published this, then I might get in
        trouble, but they have no hold over me...

EB:     Well, the Rosenbergs weren't members of the military and they
        took some Top Secret information out of the country...

RH:     Well, I'm not publishing any atomic secrets, see, I'm publishing
        something whose validity is denied...

EB:     Oh, I see, they deny that this is an actual document...

RH:     ..and also I'm not the original publisher of this. This was
        released by Bill Moore and Stanton Friedman and Jaime Shandera.

EB:     How did they get it?

RH:     They...Shandera received it in the mail anonymously on film. It
        was an undeveloped roll of film, and he had it developed, and
        this was what was on the film. They have spent several years
        since then (this was several years ago), they've spent several
        years doing a lot of clever documentary research, and
        biographical research to find out who are the principals named
        in here - they name the twelve, the Majestic Twelve, in here -
        they did a lot of research to find out who these people were,
        where they were at the time of the alleged incidents, you know,
        the whole thing. And everything they've been able to find out is
        at least CONSISTENT with this report. Doesn't prove it...

EB:     Well, now wait, according to this there were nine, whatever,
        nine spaceships or craft or whatever else flying over New
        Mexico, right? Or the Cascade...I'm sorry, uh, Cascade Mountains
        in the state of Washington, but then, later on, there was a
        [begins more-or-less quoting from document] crash in a remote
        region of New Mexico, about 75 miles northwest of Roswell Army
        Air Base (now Walker Field), and aerial reconnaisance discovered
        four small human-like beings that had apparently ejected from
        the craft, somewhat before it exploded, and fallen to the earth
        about two miles east of the wreckage site, and all four were
        dead and badly decomposed due to the action [of] predators and
        exposure to the elements due to the approximately one week time
        period which had elapsed before their discovery. Now they
        removed the bodies, and so forth, and put a cover story out
        about a weather balloon. But the question I have is, that there
        were nine of these craft visible just before, or a month before,
        in the Cascade Mountains, and a month later, one of these,
        obviously, from the same formation, or a similar one, crashes,
        why wouldn't the other eight have stuck around or why wouldn't
        they be able to get there if they have the advanced technology
        and pick these other creatures up, or find out where they had
        crashed, if they had this advanced technology? Why couldn't they
        find it before we did?

RH:     We don't know, but, the point is that these things allegedly
        crashed and allegedly were retrieved. And you can only speculate
        about what else went on. Actually, if the story...if you take it
        at face value, the beings were dead when they hit the ground and
        the craft exploded in the air. So they may have been "written
        off..."

EB:     Oh, and they thought there wasn't enough to even go after...

[Commercial Break]


[Tape again started late...]

EB:     ..if they know that much about us, why don't they speak our
        language? Because some of the sightings, uh, the people say they
        make "unintelligible sounds." Why wouldn't they have taken a
        Berlitz course or something, in English?

RH:     [chuckles] That's a good question. I don't know. I say in my
        book, in various places, that we may underestimate the
        difficulties in cultural differences between us and supposed
        alien beings, or beings [from] elsewhere, as I call them...

EB:     But if you can build a spaceship, you must have some computer
        technology. We have computers that will translate most foreign
        languages. They can translate Chinese to Russian to English in a
        matter of seconds.

RH:     Yes, but if they come from a totally different biosphere than
        anything we're familiar with, you know, and there could be
        tremendous roadblocks. They might not even be able to recognize,
        out of all the myriad forms of life on Earth, which is the
        supposedly intelligent life. They may be down there trying to
        talk to porpoises. Who knows?

EB:     Well, we have some intelligent life now on Line #1. From
        Phoenix, here's Charles, at 258-KFYI. You're on with the author
        of "Uninvited Guests," Richard Hall, and Jim Speiser, the
        ufologist and director of ParaNet. Charles, you're on KFYI,
        hello there.

Caller: Hello. Uh, gentlemen, I frankly, I think this is all hogwash.

RH:     Good.

EB:     Hogwash!

Caller: Right. And here, let me give you my proof. Now, I don't know
        about the rest of it, but this one part where these craft
        landed, and all that, and our government is either hiding it,
        hiding them, or destroying them, or something, to keep us from
        finding out. Now, just think of this for a moment: We are not
        the only nation on Earth. I mean, there are hundreds of nations
        where others could have landed, and it is assumed that...I don't
        believe that for whatever planet they come they'd pick just the
        United States and these little confines. Therefore, all the
        nations of Earth - Russia, China, India, Australia, Canada,
        England, Germany - all of them must have ALL gotten together in
        one great conspiracy to keep this information from all the
        peoples of the Earth. Is that humanly possible?

EB:     Or extraterrestrially possible...

Caller: It is?

EB:     Is it EXTRATERRESTRIALLY possible, not HUMANLY possible.

Caller: Well, no, WE are the humans who are hiding this, you see. Or our
        government.

EB:     Well, that's a good question, except that, in this book, I might
        point out, that there are sightings in places like Finland,
        France, Italy, and New Guinea, and Brazil.

Caller: But how about absolute proof, that is, like you say, wreckage,
        bodies, even though decomposed...apparently, since these bodies
        were damaged by predators, they are apparently edible.

RH:     Well, that's very interesting, you show some signs of having
        read the literature, because we didn't mention the predator
        damage before...

EB:     I had mentioned that just a moment ago...

RH:     Oh, did you mention predator damage? OK, but let me just say
        that, you talk about the international scope of this thing,
        that's absolutely correct. We've learned that even mainland
        China, communist China, has had a long history of UFO sightings
        in modern times, which is only now beginning to come out since
        the country has opened up a little bit to the West. We have an
        official ongoing investigation in France, and so forth. I don't
        think it requires any international conspiracy to account for
        why governments haven't told us things. The governments are
        confronted with some very strange, baffling information and so
        are we. What we're getting tonight in this discussion is some of
        the most extreme, very dubious sort of information. In my book,
        I have a solid underpinning of why we take this subject
        seriously at all. This question of whether or not there are
        crashed UFOs and physical evidence is definitely up in the air.
        I don't insist that that's true. All I do is report the
        information that is available, and suggest that we really need
        to study this seriously. But I don't think it necessarily
        follows that there has to be some big international conspiracy,
        I don't follow that logic.

Caller: Well, somehow it must have sneaked out from SOME country, that
        they have evidence which I assume that they would have also, not
        just we.

EB:     Oh, well there have been crashed UFO reports from other
        countries. There have been abduction reports from other
        countries.

Caller: And they are also keeping this a deep, dark secret from their
        people?

RH:     No, its NOT being kept a deep, dark secret, because we're aware
        of it. But its just not believed, you see....

Caller: Well, if they would show me, I'd believe it.

RH:     ...like you, people say "hogwash."

Caller: Yeah, but if they would show me, I would believe it!

RH:     Well, read my book. I'll show you.

EB:     We had a shooting down of an airplane by one of our Naval
        vessels with hundreds of casualties, and people called our
        station and said they don't believe it, that it was set up and
        that there were fake bodies and corpses that were set up from
        Iran...

JS:     That's the trouble, a lot of people...you've heard the
        expression, "I'll believe it when I see it." A lot of people
        will see it when they believe it. They preface it by that..."I
        have to believe it first, and no matter what you show me, I'm
        not going to believe it until I believe it."

[Commercial Break]

EB:     Six minutes before 8:00, we had a fellow named Joe waiting on
        Line #2, but obviously a UFO has spirited him away. So if
        anybody else is allowed to call us, if they're not in the hands
        of either the Air Force or the extraterrestrials, then you are
        free to dial 258-KFYI or toll-free 1-800-242-TALK. And our
        guests for these last few minutes of this first hour: we have
        Richard Hall, the author of "Uninvited Guests," which is
        probably the best collection in logical sequence of all the
        sightings, all the reports, and lots and lots of theories on
        whether or not the government is covering up something, or
        whether or not we have aliens among us. And Jim Speiser in our
        studio, ufologist and director of ParaNet. Now that's a computer
        Bulletin Board, Jim?

JS:     Yeah, its a network, actually, of computer Bulletin Board
        Systems, designed to collect and disseminate information on
        what's happening right now in the paranormal, especially UFOs
        and other anomaly fields such as Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster,
        Cattle Mutilation, things like that. There's a communications
        gap in these fields...

EB:     So sharing information, and trying to see if there's a pattern
        here...

JS:     Exactly.

EB:     ...might help. Richard Hall, I understand our government, or
        SOMEONE, investigated you, when they found out you were putting
        this book together, this gathering of all the intelligence data
        on possible life from other atmospheres, other planets, other
        solar systems. Is that true?

RH:     I was investigated back a few years ago, a number of years ago
        by the Central Intelligence Agency, and its kind of an elaborate
        story, but the bottom line is that I found out, through some
        other acquaintances and some Freedom of Information Act requests
        that they had conducted a security clearance on me, without my
        knowledge or consent and...

EB:     Why? Were you applying...

RH:     I don't know, but I've been told that they were apparently
        trying to set me up as a so-called "window," a source on the
        subject, but whatever happened to the effort, I don't know,
        because they never did that, at least I was not aware of it...

EB:     In other words, they were trying to see if they could trust you,
        and maybe put you on the Majestic Twelve list...

RH:     Well, perhaps, but apparently I flunked their security
        clearance...

EB:     Well, I would too, if you put out a book that has a Top Secret
        document in it. I'm not sure they want those kinds of people...

RH:     Yeah, well, that was much later that I did that...

EB:     Well, they could tell. They knew you were capable of doing this
        type of thing.

JS:     I think that's the bottom line, Earl. If there's nothing to the
        subject, why all this government interest? Why are there these
        documents - and I mean documents that we HAVE confirmed - Why did
        the government tell us that they had no further information on
        UFOs, when all of a sudden, under the Freedom of Information
        Act, more documents started pouring in that showed that they DID
        have interest when they were telling us they didn't?

EB:     Well, officially they closed out this "Blue Book" the Air Force
        used to keep? Right?

JS:     That's right, in 1969.

EB:     Does that mean that, for the last, well 19 years, they really
        haven't gathered any information about flying saucers, that
        they've ignored all their own pilots, uh, visual...

JS:     We have confirmed information to the contrary. Although if you
        write to the Air Force, they'll STILL tell you, "We closed out
        Project Blue Book in 1969, and that was it, that was the end of
        our interest."

EB:     So nobody in the Air Force is keeping track, right Julie?
        Julie's on our Phoenix line here, with a minute to go in our
        show.

Caller: Hi.

EB:     Hi there.

Caller: I just wanted to ask your guests if they had any dealings with
        Richard Hoagland, who wrote "The Monuments of Mars." I just
        finished reading that book, and it was supposed to be pictures
        of...

EB:     We had Richard on last month.

Caller: Right! That's where I heard of the book.

EB:     Ah, OK.

JS:     I haven't dealt with Hoagland directly, but that's a very
        interesting thing that he's got there with the face, and more
        interesting is the actual "buildings" or whatever,
        "structures"...

EB:     That's computer-aided, though! That means that you can twist
        your computer and have your computer make any pictures it wants.

JS:     I invite any computer analyst to see if those things were
        twisted or if they were merely enhanced. If they were, I would
        be willing to listen to them. However, I haven't heard that
        charge made, because nobody's bothered to follow up on the
        analysis.

EB:     I'm not sure I could prove a computer either twists or enhances
        my mind...

[End transcript]
[End program]