textfiles/ufo/fenwick

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        - <<UFONET>> Exclusive : The Mickus/ Fenwick Interview -
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THE CRUCIBLE <<UFONET I>> 416-244-9999 - 24Hrs - 12/24/96 - (1:223/264)
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       On November 6th/88, Lawrence (Larry) Fenwick, noted Canadian
       UFOlogist was interviewed for ParaNet on Sunday afternoon at 
       the Toronto residence of ParaNet Pi Sysop, Tom Mickus. He had
       previously agreed to this interview, with the full knowledge
       that it was being taped, and that the transcript would be
       released for distribution on the North American ParaNet System.

       He spoke for approximately 4 hours, of which approximately
       170 minutes were taped. During that time Larry spoke frankly
       and in some depth on a number of issues and events current
       to UFOlogy. The interview was done at my request, and Larry
       graciously assented to agree to the exchange, without any
       strings attached. Additionally, no money was exchanged.
       Although an interview, much the dialogue is in conversational
       style, appropriate for the informal setting which we were in.

       Regarding the content you are about to read, Larry neither
       makes the claim that this is original information, or
       that he knows all of it. But as you will see, he does have
       some pieces of the puzzle, in my estimation. Before the
       interview, I gave him every right to protect his sources,
       as well as have certain portions of the interview "off
       the record". While he has withheld some names, none of
       the substance of what we discussed was held back. Its
       all here for you to examine and evaluate.

       As I've mentioned, approximately 170 mins of our exchange
       was suppposed to have been on tape. However, after the
       interview, and to my extreme chagrin, I soon realized that
       the first 45 mins of the tape was almost blank, and the A-B,
       C-D order of the 4 sides seems to be haphazard. I am puzzled
       as to what happened, but at this point blame the recording
       device for screwing up...and of course also blame myself for
       not ensuring the integrity of the recording device, although
       the process was monitored throughout...and I am genuinely
       perplexed as to how this had happened. What I have therefore
       done, is to paraphrase the dialogue as much as possible, in
       order to bring out the 'highlights' of what we discussed in
       the first 45 mins. About one third of that had contained an
       in-depth bio of interviewee Larry Fenwick. Perhaps on a
       subsequent occasion, Larry can recount some of the
       information which we covered, a good portion which included
       commentary on the two recent TV productions, namely that of
       "UNSOLVED MYSTERIES - the Gulf Breeze segment", and of
       course "UFO-Coverup LIVE". For the time being, to the best
       of my recollection, some of what Larry brought up will be
       included in an appendix at the end of the formal transcript.

       One last note...this entire effort on my own part has
       consumed almost exclusively 4 days of my life. The transcibing
       process took close to 40 Hours, using simple tape recorders.
       Every effort has been made to insure the integrity of the
       dialogue of the part of Larry Fenwick. I can confidently say
       that I have reproduced accurately 99% of what Larry Fenwick
       said in the 125 mins of taped dialogue which was intact.
       The 40 Hours of time I think reflects this. My own dialogue,
       sparse as it is, is about 90% accurate. In some areas I have
       clarified my questions.

       Throughout, you will notice the use of square brackets [ ],
       these are added in by myself in areas that required some
       clarification...especially when certain mannerisms, inflection
       of speech, pause in speech etc., didn't "translate" into
       the written word sufficiently. Whereever you find words
       capitalized, that will indicate a word strongly emphasized,
       and indeed I have added this clarification in most of the
       instances.

       Lastly, although you may find some hints as to my interests
       and positions on various aspects of the UFO issue, I have
       not as yet come out in favour of, or against, most of what
       Larry Fenwick has said. For me, in part, the jury is still
       out. Having said that, I cannot help feel that much of what
       Larry Fenwick has enuciated here is quite significant. There
       should be enough information here for sleuthing armchair
       UFOlogists to get involved in, and to track down. The information
       conspiracy must end...the people must know. If what Larry and
       others say is true, even a part of it...then we don't have
       much time. In closing, I encourage you to spread the transcript
       of this file onto other Bulletin Board Systems. If it acts as
       a catalyst for action...pro or con...then it will have served
       its purpose.

                            -Tom Mickus  11/10/88


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[The transcript begins at the near the end of side 1...]






<Fenwick> "...on the air, and they went up and interviewed Robert
          Sufferin [sp?], and they got him on camera, and he was
          interviewed on Channel 9 [CFTO Toronto], on the local
          news. ...well there was a deluge of phone calls, and
          people started descending en masse, on Robert Sufferin's
          property. About 2,000 - 3,000 people descended onto his
          property. They were there day and night, from all over
          southern Ontario."

 <Mickus> "And what year was this?"

<Fenwick> "1975. This was in October of '75. The agreement between
          the aliens and the American gov't, [with] the intelligence
          agencies, was made in June of that year."

 <Mickus> "June of '75..."

<Fenwick> "That's right. Thats when the agreement was..., for the
          exchange of technology was made. One month to the date,
          after that 'event' occurred to Robert Sufferin, he got
          a telephone call from Falconbridge Air Force Base from
          a lieutenant, who asked if he and his wife would be
          willing to undergo psychological tests. A battery of tests.
          He agreed, so did his wife. They took him...I don't know
          when this occurred, fairly soon after that,...nor do I
          know where the tests were administered. I would assume
          somewhere in southern Ontario. They gave him tests, and
          so on. And a month later..."


                            [ tape change ]


<Fenwick> "...now the information that we found out, and that I
          just described, was as a result of an interview that
          Harry and Joe and I did with Robert Sufferin on his
          property. We weren't allowed to make to make notes,
          until we got into our car. No tape-recorders, no
          photographs. He talked extensively, for several hours,
          about UFOs in general, about various topics. This was
          the 2nd of two interviews done with him. I wasn't
          present at the first one..., there was a gentlemen by
          the name of Wayne Forsyth who was doing a documentary
          for public schools or high schools on UFOs, who was
          with Harry and Joe the first time he was interviewed,
          and his wife was also there. Now we only talked with
          Robert when I was there. He said...he told us about
          this incident [UFO hovering over his barn, and another
          one which landed for 'repairs' in the adjacent field,
          then both flew off after a short time...neighbor
          phoned Sufferin to tell him that he thought his barn
          was on fire, which it wasn't...the UFO hovering above
          was extremely bright and luminouscent], and he told
          us about the telephone call from Falconbridge Air
          Force Base, and about the incident where three men
          showed up in full military uniform on Dec.7th, 1975.

          They came in an O.P.P. [Ontario Provincial Police]
          cruiser, unmarked...an unmarked cruiser, driven by
          the head of the detachment of the O.P.P. Bracebridge,
          who has since denied that he was ever there, to one
          of our members [CUFORN] who was his best friend. In
          other words, he lied to his best friend. He said,
          'that no cruiser was ever sent up there...impossible.'
          The three men who visited him [Sufferin], one was the
          lieutenant from Falconbridge Air Force Base, the
          other two were from the United States. One from the
          Air Force Office of Special Investigations, AFOSI, and
          the other officer was from the Office of Naval
          Intelligence. As you know, OSI and the ONI are part of
          the Project Aquarius unit. They are all linked together,
          as you saw in the Oct. 14 television show. They brought
          with them a portfolio...a book...whether it was the
          'yellow book' written by the alien or not, I don't know.
          It was quite thick he said, hundreds of pages long."

 <Mickus> "The yellow book goes back to..."

<Fenwick> "That was written by an alien, for the Americans."

 <Mickus> "And when did they originally get that?"

<Fenwick> "They got that in 1975, in June of '75, under the agreement.
          The alien actually wrote it out...and it was used.
          ...Now what Robert was shown was a series of photographs,
          full colour, dating back to WW II...close-up photographs
          in broad daylight of UFOs...which were POSED [his emphasis]
          In other words, the aliens stopped the craft, and allowed
          pictures to be taken. And these were all gun-camera
          photographs, taken from jet aircraft...from various aircraft.
          A pile of them...a pile of them. And they were all 8 1/2
          by 10 glossies. He was shown these photographs. He was also
          told several things. They told him that when the incident
          occurred...right to the minute. He had not told his
          wife or his sister that he had noticed the exact time of
          this landing, or landings we should say, on his property.
          They told him why the landings occurred...what happened.
          There was a landing for repairs to one of the craft. The
          other one hovered over the barn...the one in the field
          had some problems...mechanical problems. It took off,
          finally it got out of there. They told him this, and he
          didn't know why [they were telling him]. And they
          apologized for the landing on his property, they told
          him why the UFOs are here on this planet...what they
          represent, and where they are from. They also told him
          that they knew of the previous two sightings he had had
          with his brother-in-law on several nights prior to that
          incident. They had been on his property and been looking
          out the window, and a couple of over-flights had occurred
          of UFOs. He hadn't told a soul about that, not even his
          wife, only his brother-in-law had known. So there is no
          way that they could have known, unless they were in contact
          with the aliens when it happened. They said that they had
          tracked these UFOs on radar..., at Air Force bases its done
          all the time, except that the 'unknowns' are never
          publicized. They always say when someone calls in and says,
          'We have a report of a UFO...did you track anything on your
          radio at Downsview Air Force Base or Falconbridge or
          Toronto International Airport...or ANY airport in the
          Western world?" Their orders are [to say] 'No.' Deny, deny
          deny...right down the line. And we surmised this ourselves
          although this was confirmed.

          The interview proceeded thusly, as Roberts said. They gave
          him a telephone number to call...and unlisted, unpublished
          telephone number to call in case there were any further
          incidents on his property. And they said that there had
          been an agreement...an agreement made with the aliens
          between the American government and the aliens. And they
          told him a few things about a long range program...or
          plan, a master plan they called it, which was underway.
          Now that's all that Robert Sufferin told us in 2 hours.
          We talked about things other than UFOlogy for most of the
          time. As we left the property...we were about 35-40 feet
          away from Bob, and he called out to us. This was in
          daytime, and we were going back to our car. He called out
          to us, [and] he made this statement...and we wrote it
          down in the car, 'What was the cause of WW II?'
          He had been told..., the classified information about the
          programming of Hitler..to cause WW II. And we did an
          article about the case, with the exception of that statement.
          As we thought it didn't fit in.

          And in 1982 we found out the information..which I have just
          told you. We are way ahead of the game as far as that TV
          show is concerned [UFO-Coverup LIVE]. We know a little about
          what was mentioned by Condor and Falcon, plus more. At
          that point in 1982 we found this information out. This was
          7 years after the Sufferin incident. We didn't interview
          Robert Sufferin until 1978 by the way. He had remembered
          what had occurred in 1975, a few years earlier. This is in
          the summer of '78. So...we had made the notes, and in 1982
          we had heard this information. In 1983 I was looking
          through some old files, and I came across the Sufferin
          incident...and we had written up an article on it [previously]
          in a small journal that Harry Tokarz had churned out on his
          own. It ran about 4 issues, it was called "UFO Pulse Analyzer"
          and he had mentioned this in an article. And I looked at
          the notes, and see in the margin there, "What was the
          cause of WW II", which I had written down in the margin.
          And I wrote down below that, 'What has this got to do with
          UFOs?'. At that time we didn't know. And later on we found
          out."

          "Bill Moore was in touch with Robert Sufferin by phone, in
          our presence. He phoned him. We gave him the phone number."

 <Mickus> "In 1982?"

<Fenwick> "No...actually this was in 1981. He was here in Toronto, and
          he called Bob up in Utterson, Ontario, where Bob lived at
          the time. Bob still owns the property, but we don't know
          where he lives now, he's moved around a bit. So Bill Moore
          talked to him on the phone...we didn't hear what Bob said
          on the other end of the line, but Bill said that he
          confirmed what I suspected. Bill had heard a little bit
          in 1980. He got the documents in 1982 on Aquarius and this
          sort of thing...MJ-12. But he had heard a little bit. The
          agreement was mentioned. I know that Bill mentioned the
          agreement on the phone..., he knew about that. How?, I
          don't know. But that was the clue. Now I asked Bill..."

 <Mickus> "The world war II thing?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. That programming had been done."

 <Mickus> "Just to clarify...did someone ask him this question?"

<Fenwick> "No...this was separate [from the interview]. As we were
          leaving, he just blurted that out. Robert Sufferin just
          blurted it out."

 <Mickus> "So he just said it to you [unsolicited]?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, out loud. He yelled it out after us as we were
          walking back toward our car."

 <Mickus> "And that was it?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, that was all. We didn't ask him. What the hells he
          talking about [they said to each other]. We just walked
          on to the car...made a note of it,...I wrote down right
          behind the note, 'What has this got to do with UFOs?'
          We couldn't see any connection at all at that time. And
          it was only in 1983 that I happened to come across the
          statement that I had written out in the rough notes for
          that article which was done for that "UFO Pulse Analyzer"
          magazine. My goodness, that was it. The year before we
          had found out about the connection. In '83 I saw that
          little note, and I said, 'My God...he was told the truth'.

          And later on...in 1982 there was this symposium...the
          MUFON symposium in Toronto at the Westbury Hotel. I
          talked to Bill Moore privately at that point. He was
          one of the speakers there...and I helped run the
          convention a little bit, and I said to Bill, 'You know
          the Robert Sufferin case?" He said [Moore], "Yeah, I
          remember that." [Fenwick] Because he had read the whole
          article, and so on; and I had told him what had transpired
          and so on, and he was quite interested in that. And I
          said to him, '...when those three military officers
          talked to Sufferin, they really gave him everything on
          this Project Aquarius, it seems to me.' Then I said to
          Bill, 'Do you think that this has happened prior to...a
          month or two prior to somebody else maybe?' [making
          reference to the 1975 Sufferin incident] And he said,
          'Yeah, in the United States it happened twice, between
          June and October' [1975]. Two other people were told
          in the United States the same information was given to
          them."

 <Mickus> "In 1975?"

<Fenwick> "In '75 yes, just after that."

 <Mickus> "So those two would have been before the agreement [U.S.-
          EBE agreement] then, right?"

<Fenwick> "No, the agreement was in June of 1975. The Robert
          Sufferin case occurred on October 7th. Somewhere between
          June and October of '75, two other close encounters
          occurred in the United States in which aliens had
          nearly been killed...by a car or whatever, I don't
          know how. But Bill wouldn't go into detail on that. I
          questioned him, but he refused to go into any detail
          on that. He knew about it...through Condor and Falcon.
          And it was a test of the psychological reactions of
          people to the fact that we are the ETs [in reference to
          earlier statements by Fenwick as to our alien heritage]
          ...this is not our home planet."

 <Mickus> "So that was the reason for spilling the beans to these
          three, relatively simple folk?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, thats right. And there's something else also...
          When Tracy Torme visited Toronto, he worked for CTV
          [Canadian Television Network], he was a script-writer
          for them; he arranged in advance, through Bill Moore, to
          visit us...in my apartment in fact. And he talked a little
          bit about what he had heard. Later on he told us all that
          I have told you...through Bill. He got it through Bill
          Moore. We asked him what the classified information would
          mean to the human race. What areas of the human race...of
          human endeavour or aspects of human interest [that] would
          be most affected if ALL the information about Project
          Aquarius came out in the open. And he unhesitatingly said,
          'Religion.' He said that there would be mass suicides,
          those who were extremely religious among the Christian
          community would commit suicide. And he said, anthropology,
          ..Science would be heavily affected by it. Anthropology,
          History..., you take just WW II [for example]. If the
          historians knew that...and they are not on a need to know
          basis, they are not going to be told unless the entire
          world knows. This would create one of the biggest upheavals
          in all the universities, and all the history teachers in
          the world, and professors, would really be astounded if
          they knew that that was fact. And he said that a lot people
          wouldn't believe it if it were told to the public. There
          would be some panic, there would be suicides. I said, 'well
          maybe there wouldn't be that many', but he said [Torme]
          'Yes, there would be a fair number...in the millions'.
          But there are billions of people in the world, so that
          percentage wise its not a lot. But, 'This is why,' he
          said [speaking again of Torme] 'the information is not
          being told to the public. Because it would affect people
          too adversely.'"

 <Mickus> "The War-of-the-Worlds syndrome?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, that's right. That is their mental attitude...the
          people in Project Aquarius who don't want the information
          released,...not [the attitude] of the 10 people who have
          talked [Condor & Falcon being 2 of the 10] out of the 24.
          There are 24 people in Aquarius, total. 10 of the 24 have
          talked. The other 14 don't want the information released
          because they have that attitude...War-of-the-World's
          thing...mass panic and so on. And I think that in the
          atomic age that we live in, we're passed that stage...if
          you can learn to live with the Bomb...and not worry that
          much outwardly...maybe inwardly I guess. This generation
          is used to that threat hanging over them. If they heard
          this information, it wouldn't upset this generation, the
          present generation as much. And this attitude of the
          younger generatiomn...of not being upset too much about
          it is why those people have talked, why the rebels have
          talked." By the way, the rebels are Vietnam veterans."

 <Mickus> "All 10 of them?"

<Fenwick> "All of them. They're all Nam veterans."

 <Mickus> "And what is the range of rankings, and their ages?"

<Fenwick> "From Colonel up to..., well one of them is a 2-star
          General. I don't know any names. I know Condor is a
          black man by the way. They were in Nam, and they saw
          their own officers kill their own men under the
          influence of drugs. And they decided that whatever they
          did in peacetime, somehow they would get back at the
          American government. They all...these happened by
          coincidence, or not,...to all get involved in the UFO
          phenomenon. And these people in Aquarius are full-time
          on it. And they decided..., they got together...over a
          period of time, very clandestinely,...and word went
          from one to another, [in effect agreeing that they]
          '...would approach someone neutral in the UFO field,
          someone who is not affiliated with any major
          organizations, someone who is reliable...' And they
          picked on Bill Moore. And he got a telephone call
          from one of them, and they arranged to meet...I think
          it was at a 'McDonalds' in fact...in Phoenix if I'm
          not mistaken. Bill mentioned this."

          "There's a lot of information that we have gotten.
          Now, Tracy Torme told us that he had heard this from
          Bill Moore, and Bill was under sedation for back
          trouble. Bill started talking...and didn't realize it.
          And Tracy told us, 'Don't tell ANYONE that you got
          the information from Bill Moore. And to this day, Bill
          Moore doesn't know that we got it through Tracy. He
          wasn't supposed to reveal it. He told us about 15%...
          15% of the classified information under Project Aquarius."

 <Mickus> "That he [Torme] knows?"

<Fenwick> "That he knows. He knows all of it. So does Bill Moore,
          Bill told him everything."

 <Mickus> "Torme knows all of it?"

<Fenwick> "Torme knows all of it, and so does Moore. Bill Moore
          told Torme this. Torme is, by the way the son, the oldest
          son of Mel Torme the singer. I've met Mel in town here
          one time. This is what he told us. He said [Tracy], 'I
          can't tell you anymore.' And he later on told Moore to...
          [?] ..Harry and Joe near New York city. They drove down
          there with their wives or girlfriends whatever, and they
          met him in a motel...and he started talking...and he
          wouldn't allow them to make notes. Nothing, just verbal.
          Hear it, and remember it. And he told me when they came
          back. Outdoors we were walking along the street one night,
          and it's dark, and they're telling me when no one was
          around...there was no one within sight, in the area I
          live in. So that no one would over hear...not that a
          satellite couldn't pick-up the conversation...but
          certainly no one on the ground, so they were careful in
          that respect."

          One thing you have to remember, when you are talking about
          the UFO phenomenon...and here I'm showing my conservative
          bent..., and that is, let us suppose that the information
          posed by Condor and Falcon on that show, and told to Bill
          Moore, is all false. That everything is false. Its all
          disinformation...or what's know in as 'grey' propaganda,
          a bit of truth mixed in with a lot of phony things. Let
          us suppose that all of this, all of what I have said to
          you about Project Aquarius...[that] the classified
          information supposedly, is all false. If in fact it was
          deliberately promulgated to test a reaction among
          UFOlogists to this sort of information, as to whether they
          could follow-up on it...or find out whether it is true
          or not. That in itself would be of interest to people in
          the UFO field. This is one of the reason's why I am talking
          about this information. If its all false, its certainly a
          most interesting scenario. And the motivations behind the
          spreading of...lies, from a psychological point of view, it
          certainly is quite interesting. So I must...as I say...I must
          predicate, I must be conservative here, predicate what I
          have said as an afterword shall we say, with that statement.

          All of what I've said, I'm sure is interesting to people.
          Some of it to some people might be unbelievable, some of it
          might be astonishing, some of the people might agree with
          some of the things said, [saying to themselves], 'that sounds
          plausible'. But when you use 'grey' propaganda, you mix in
          plausible things with things that are false. That was done
          with that television program show in England, called,
          "Alternative 3"...they mixed in a few facts with a lot of
          baloney. I have a letter from the guy who wrote the script,
          on how they dreamed it up at lunch-time one day."

 <Mickus> "Its interesting that you mention that. John Lear was one
          of the first people I met on ParaNet, and we had a bit of a
          dialogue on that very subject. I ended up finding a short
          paragraph on it in a movie compendium [see A3MOVIE.TXT in the
          UFOlogy File Area], and it ended basically by saying that
          the movie was only fiction, but that people still view it
          as being true."

<Fenwick> "There are still people who believe it. And there have been
          mysterious deaths in England lately among people involved
          with defense contracts, computer scientists. And I've got
          newspaper clippings from England on that, just this last
          week. So there is a bit of truth mixed in."

 <Mickus> "Which elements in the movie do you think are true?"

<Fenwick> "Well, obviously that people have died, but whether they
          are coincidental or not, we don't know."

 <Mickus> "What about this thing about a Moonbase?"

<Fenwick> "No. I don't think so. I've talked to Buzz Aldrin about that
          on the phone. And I said, "Ah, somebody's trying to dream up
          a story for the National Enquirer...what nonsense.' [Aldrin
          said] 'I didn't see any bases on the moon while we were up
          there on Apollo 11, thats' a lot of nonsense.' He denied it.
          Technically there could be bases on the moon underground, NASA
          has the capabilities now, they had them years ago. In the
          1960's I wrote a full page article for "Daily Commercial News"
          on underground construction on the moon, I still have a copy
          of the article. All the technical data is available in the
          Toronto Public Library. I did research for weeks and weeks on
          that."

 <Mickus> "The hard part is getting the equipment up there."

<Fenwick> "Thats all. But the actual installation and so on, is not too
          difficult."

 <Mickus> "What other elements of the A3 Movie would you see as...."

<Fenwick> "Factual? That's all. I've given them to you. That's all."

 <Mickus> "Now, these people who are coming up missing, what's
          happening to them. They are being killed because of what
          they know?"

<Fenwick> "I think that that's a Soviet thing. I think the Soviets are
          involved in those..., those murders...those deaths, those
          mysterious deaths in England lately."

 <Mickus> "Oh, so you don't see those being related in anyway to goings
          on in the field of UFOlogy?"

<Fenwick> "No, not at all."

 <Mickus> "So the A3 Movie then, there's really no relation at all to.."

<Fenwick> "...not to UFO's."

 <Mickus> "Its more an East-West thing?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, primarily that. And a test of reactions I suppose, as
          some suspect, by the producers of the show, that's all. They
          wanted to see how people would take it."

 <Mickus> "And that's a recurring theme..."

<Fenwick> "I know it is. I have a whole file on A3...Alternative 3, a
          thick file...ending with a letter from the producers."

 <Mickus> "Saying that..."

<Fenwick> "Saying that its all a hoax. That they dreamed it up over
          lunch one day. I have it on their official letterhead of
          their production company."

 <Mickus> "And you said that Torme was interested in it?"

<Fenwick> "Yeah, he hadn't seen the movie. It wasn't shown in the
          states, it was shown in Canada twice on Global TV in
          southern Ontario."

 <Mickus> "When did he get in touch with you, years ago?"

<Fenwick> "No. Just a month ago. He happened to mention it."

 <Mickus> "He's probably gotten that from Lear then..."

<Fenwick> "Oh yeah. Lear tends to repeat what he [has] heard. Lear
          doesn't in terms of a lot of information on UFOs. Linda
          Howe has told me that she was in touch with Lear...and
          that they had all kinds of problems there..."

 <Mickus> "...and disagreements?"

<Fenwick> "Disagreements, yes. One's repeating what the other says.
          Back and forth, then it spreads around and so on. Rumours...
          and things get exaggerated with a rumour, and this is what
          has happened with Richard Doty...the Richard Doty case."

 <Mickus> "Have you read the so called Lear document, the Lear text?"

<Fenwick> "No."

 <Mickus> "Okay...but what you've heard about John Lear, he's
          basically repeating things from other sources."

<Fenwick> "Sure. He's not doing any research himself."

 <Mickus> "And from what you know of what he's said, I should
          probably give you the Lear.txt as to actually read as
          he makes a quite a number of claims..."

<Fenwick> "I've heard some of the claims through Linda Howe. Linda
          Moulton Howe."

 <Mickus> "Which of what you heard would you say he is correct or
          wrong about?"

<Fenwick> "I've heard too much...too go into detail"

 <Mickus> "What about some of the highlights...crashed disks, there
          are supposed to be 30 crashed disks [in the hands of the
          U.S. Government]."

<Fenwick> "Well, I've heard that years ago. It was an estimate. It
          was a guess, that's all. And these guess's get exaggerated
          and passed around from one UFOlogist to another. From
          someone maybe who's in casual conversation with another,
          [and says] 'Maybe there are about 30 of them crashed, who
          knows.' And before you know it, its THIRTY."

 <Mickus> "Personally, how many do you think?"

<Fenwick> "The Roswell one is definite. Also the one at Elindeo [sp?]
          Texas, on the Mexican border is definite..."

 <Mickus> "And what year is the second one?"

<Fenwick> "1980. And then in 1948, the one in Kingmon [sp?] Arizona.
          that's a definite one. And I think maybe the one other one
          is in Syracuse, New York...in 1967. Those are the only ones
          I know of, although I've heard rumours about one in the
          Rockies in Canada in 1952. Rumours. Indirect contacts with
          someone who is there, this sort of thing."

 <Mickus> "And all these crashed due to mechanical problems...none
          of them have been shot down?"

<Fenwick> "Yes [mechanical problems], except for Roswell. Roswell
          wasn't a mechanical problem, Roswell was a lightning
          strike. And also there was another crash that occurred in
          Michigan, Hillsdale. Dexter Michigan...where Gerald Ford
          got involved in calling for a congressional investigation.
          That was a crash. That was landing for repairs, put it
          that way."

 <Mickus> "And the one about the farmer's case you mentioned, where
          it landed and took off..."

<Fenwick> "That wasn't actually a crash, but a landing for repairs.
          same in England. That one at Bentwaters, that was a landing
          for repairs...and it was repaired, and they took off again."

 <Mickus> "Okay, you mention Bentwaters. Maybe we can get into that
          a bit. Now do you believe that's true, about what supposedly
          happened?"

<Fenwick> "Oh yes."

 <Mickus> "Maybe if you would recount..."

<Fenwick> "Well I'm recounting investigations done by other people.
          I don't like to do that, its second hand information."

 <Mickus> "But you basically believe that..."

<Fenwick> "An alien craft landed for repairs, and was assisted in
          its repairs by the commander, Commander Williams of the
          Air Force base there. Gordon Williams."

 <Mickus> "And how many were there?"

<Fenwick> "I had heard that there were more than one, lets put it
          that way."

  <Mickus> "And how many air force personnel do you believe
           witnessed this..."

<Fenwick> "It depends on what part you're talking about, the
          underground meeting, or the above ground meeting.
          There were at least a dozen people involved in that
          case. And there were military policeman involved. One
          chap who wasn't there, who claimed originally to have
          been there, was a fellow named Larry Warren. He actually
          heard it from someone else, another military policeman
          who was at the underground meeting with the Men In Black
          [MIB] supposedly. Giving instructions."

 <Mickus> "But not much is known about that meeting?"

<Fenwick> "No, its only referred to very briefly in the book by
          Jenny Randles and Dot Street, 'Skycrash'. There's
          another authoress, but I've forgotten her name. I think
          there's about one or two sentence about that in the
          whole book. And that was probably the most important
          aspect of it...and they couldn't get any more information
          on that. I've got an unpublished manuscript by Larry
          Warren at home...part of one chapter really...about 10
          pages. He's writing a book, so he said that this is not
          for publication...and he talked about some of his
          experiences, not there...but as a Military policeman
          being transferred to some secret NSA facilities in
          Egypt, and another one in Florida."

 <Mickus> "Connected with..."

<Fenwick> "Connected with he doesn't know what. Every American and
          Canadian Air Force Base has underground facilities. If
          anything were to go in or out, it would be like 3 or 4
          in the morning. A UFO comes in for repairs, or whatever.
          If you want to deal in rumour...I was on a bus one day
          downtown. It was night and I was the only guy on the
          bus, and talking to the driver I mentioned UFOs. He said,
          'Oh, I wonder if there is any connection with my friend.
          This guy I know is a janitor up at Downsview Air Force
          Base. And he's in the underground facilities. He said
          that you would be amazed as to what's under there', but
          he wouldn't go on any further about that. I questioned
          him further, but he said he didn't know any more than
          that."

 <Mickus> "You've obviously heard the claims about the underground
          bases, in Nevada..."

<Fenwick> "...Nellis Air Force Base. That is the main facility
          in Nevada... Apparently that is near Area #51, or
          'Dreamland' as its known. But its not on the map.
          You'll find Nellis on the map, but you won't find
          Dreamland or Area #51 on the map. Its all in the area
          where they test the UFOs that are lent to them. There
          was one which supposedly crashed in 1984, killing the
          Commander, General Robert Bond. And it was on the
          front page of the Toronto Star [Major Canadian Daily]
          as a crash of a steath weapon. That's how they
          publicize it. And even Walt Andrus said that that was
          a Stealth weapon...the head of MUFON. Actually it was
          a UFO lent to the Americans in 1975, and test flown
          all the way up through 1984, when it crashed killing
          the pilot, General Robert Bond. If its something
          classified, not necessarily stealth, but a UFO lets
          say...then you wouldn't have anyone less than a general
          flying it. It would be on a need to know basis, you
          wouldn't have an ordinary pilot. And when he died, his
          wife was told, his family was told that [there] was
          a crash of an American Air Force plane...which was
          classified, that's all, not a UFO. But is was a UFO.
          It had been fitted with jets, but there was a problem
          with controls."

          "The same with that case in Texas, where those two women
          and the boy..., the Cash-Landrum case. That was one of
          the craft lent to them, the diamond-shape one. So they
          have different kinds of..."

 <Mickus> "So they way it was presented on the show [UFO-Coverup]
          was basically correct?"

<Fenwick> "Oh yes, it was an alien craft. There's no question
          about that. That's what it was. And I had suspected
          this for quite some time with John Schussler [sp?]
          who had written about this, and lectured about this
          at various symposia. I mentioned this, along with
          Harry and Joe...all three of us said to John, and
          he's with NASA...he worked on the original Shuttle
          program, and he's semi-retired now with MacDonnel
          Douglas. He's a program director for the shuttle
          mission...one of the early shuttle missions. And
          we mentioned our theory that it was an alien craft.
          And he said, 'I don't think so.'...but now he KNOWS.
          That's what it was...there's no question thats what
          it was...even though the television show said that
          maybe it was an American secret weapon, or maybe it
          was an alien craft. They left it up in the air. But
          it was an alien craft, there's no much doubt about
          that."

          "So...over the years you hear all these stories, and
          unless you've been there, unless you were there when
          the thing happened...that's all they are, Stories.
          Second-hand, third-hand information and so on. Unless
          you're like Bill Moore, or the people in Project
          Aquarius who are on this full-time, you're not going
          to find out the truth. You're going to hear what is
          purported to be the truth. You'll hear second-hand
          stories...you'll hear newspaper accounts...."

          "Now here's something that you might not know, and
          that is...in relationship to the media, about publicity
          of UFOs, you don't see too much in the daily papers
          about UFOs, not very much. You do see, almost every week
          in the tabloids...tabloid magazines, articles about..oh,
          'Aliens Found in Soviet Tundra' or whatever...you know,
          all sorts of stories. There are various publications in
          the United States. One is called 'The Sun', you have
          another one called 'The National Examiner', another one
          called 'The Globe', another one called 'Weekly World News',
          and there is the "National Enquirer", and 'The Star'."

          "The history of those publications, just briefly...
          The National Enquirer was the original, the original
          tabloid, the largest circulation newspaper in the world
          incidentally. The Weekly World News and The National
          Enquirer are published by the same company. The publisher
          ...is with the Central Intelligence Agency. He is...I
          believe, Deputy Chief of one of the Divisions to do with
          counter-intelligence. When The National Enquirer and The
          Weekly World News publish a UFO story, it is true. [With]
          the other publications, they are copies of The National
          Enquirer. They [other publications] hire freelance writers
          who use phony names and bylines, and print stories which
          are false, in most instances. 90% of those stories in The
          National Examiner, and The Globe, and The Sun, and The Star
          ...The Star doesn't publish that sort of thing anymore but
          they used to...; are phony stories. Now, if you were to
          publish the stories that are in The National Enquirer, and
          The Weekly World News, on the front page of The New York
          Times or The Washington Post or The Globe & Mail, it
          would really upset people. But if you publish them in
          tabloids...where all the stories are sensational...at least
          the headlines are sensational, then they don't stand out,
          and they don't frighten people. People tend to laugh at them
          and say 'Oh well, its all phony'. But if you are in the UFO
          field, you find out that stories are not phony. You follow
          up on them, and you find out that they are actual cases.
          The general public doesn't know that they are."

 <Mickus> "But the names of Doctors, etc., within the articles are..."

<Fenwick> "...True. In The [National] Enquirer and The Weekly World
          News."

 <Mickus> "The actual names are true?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. Those are the real names. But in the other journals,
          The Examiner, The Globe, The Sun, they put phony names all
          the way through and phony stories, and so on. Even the
          writers are using phony names."

 <Mickus> "Do you know the publisher's name off-hand? Its listed of
          course..."

<Fenwick> "No, I know that he's a 'Jr.', his father has the same
          name. All you have to do is look in The National Enquirer
          and you'll see the publisher's name there."

 <Mickus> "In that particular magazine, is it just him himself, or
          are there other's involved too?"

<Fenwick> "No, just him himself. He gets the stories from Aquarius...
          and from MJ-12."

 <Mickus> "The rebels, or the..."

<Fenwick> "The rebels. I think he's working with them. I'm not certain
          about that, I can't be certain about that...maybe not. And
          publishes them [UFO stories] to see what kind of reaction
          they get from the readers...[to see] who sends in letters
          to those articles."

 <Mickus> "Okay...before we follow-up on the media thing; MJ-12 has
           24 members?"

<Fenwick> "No. 12. Project Aquarius has 24 members. Two different
           groups."

 <Mickus> "Now what's their relationship?"

<Fenwick> "A direct relationship. Project Aquarius is the overall
          umbrella organization. MJ-12, Majestic Twelve are the
          people who work with ONI on field investigations. They
          go to the crash sites; they have the meetins with the
          aliens, along with Aquarius people. Aquarius people
          don't get involved with the crashes. The MJ-12 people
          do that...they are scientists, and military people and
          so on. They work as a team. They are flown out...at a
          moments notice...from wherever they are."

 <Mickus> "The MJ-12 Group?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. The Aquarius people, they do the overall supervision
          of the MJ-12 people. And they get information from all
          sorts of sources, like the CIA, the DIA, and so on... the
          National Intelligence Agency and so on. And they are the
          umbrella organization. They co-ordinate everything. The
          Navy does the field investigations along with MJ-12.
          There's always someone from the Navy on MJ-12. Usually
          the Secretary of the Navy...someone big like that. So
          they get an overall view on Aquarius of what's going on.
          And they decide the policy."

          "But...since 1975 they have NOT been deciding policy. The
          aliens...the EBEs...tell the people at Project Aquarius
          how to handle the whole thing. Under the agreement...'Do
          Not Reveal Our Presence, or We Will Interfere With Your
          History.' And it was mentioned on that TV show [UFO Coverup]
          ...and they ARE going to interfere in our History, that is
          why we are going to have World War III."

          "Now getting back...I'm going to digress a little bit.
          There were three books written in the last 8 years. By
          a fellow from Northern Ireland with the initials, W.A.
          Harbinson. According to...I can't recall who told me this,
          whether it was Bill Moore or Tracy Torme...worked [Harbinson]
          with the National Security Agency. He wrote three books. One
          called 'Genesis', which talks about the Nazi's in the South
          Pole...developing UFO's and this sort of thing; a rather
          interesting book. And if you read the end of the book, its
          a fictional book...until you read the end there is about
          12 pages of footnotes. References to 'samizdat'...the neo-Nazi
          group in Toronto, and their publications...and a lot of Nazi
          books, a lot of military books by a fellow by the name of
          Walther Horndorffer [sp?], and several other books, quite a
          few books actually mentioned there, and famous books on
          UFOlogy. All this information comes from those books...but
          if you didn't go to the appendix at the end of the book, you
          wouldn't know that if you had just read the novel and said,
          'the heck with the rest of it, I won't bother reading it',
          you wouldn't realize that that's all based on fact. The
          names have been changed in most cases."

          "Then he wrote another book called 'Revelation'. And a third
          book called 'The Light of Eden'. I've read all three books.
          And I think that they are a TEST of how people would react
          to those books, [as in] how many people had written to the
          author...what did they have to say about it...how much do
          they know. They are trying to find out who might know, who
          has found out some of this classified information that
          shouldn't know. Now, the second book 'Revelaton'...there's
          a lot of sex in these books, the third book particularly..
          each one had sexual stories in it, a couple of stories,
          very explicit stuff though. The second book 'Revelation',
          takes place in a little town; which is in existence, is
          called Armageddon in Israel. And what happens...now this
          is supposedly in 1990...at that town there is a confrontation
          between two individuals...I use the word individuals, lets
          say entities or individuals. Just prior to that there has
          been a bomb explosion at the most holy shrine of the Muslims
          [in Mecca]. The bomb has been thrown by a muslim...and the
          Jews are blamed. A holy war, or jihad is underway at that
          point, and the Americans and Soviets come in with everything
          they've got. And there's a war between the Americans and
          the Soviets...and the Arabs and the Jews, all together."

          "The Soviets leave their country unprotected...meanwhile
          the Chinese come in and invade the Soviet Union and
          takeover the country. Takeover the entire Soviet Union.
          Takeover the entire country."

 <Mickus> "This is all detailed in the book of course..."

<Fenwick> "Yes. Part of it. Part of it I got from another source,
          from a former member [CUFORN], now deceased. The two
          individuals I mentioned earlier are the Anti-christ or
          Devil...the devil incarnate shall we say. And the Jewish
          Saviour, not Christ. The real Jewish Saviour who has yet
          to arrive according to the Jewish Talmud [Note: Some
          Christian Fundamentalists would view such a figure as the
          biblical 'False Prophet'] He will arrive in our time.
          That will be 1990, its only 2 years from now. At that
          location, in the midst of the war...war will have been
          underway...and it will not be a nuclear war to start with,
          but it will end up that way on July 7th, 1999...a nuclear
          war between the Chinese and the Americans. And we will all
          be 'gone' with the exception of certain people who had
          been abducted, who will supposedly be taken off this
          planet by mother ships, large carrier craft [to be] taken
          somewhere else and maybe brought back somehow, or taken
          to some other planet. Maybe they will be cryogenetically
          frozen or something, I don't know. Taken to another 'time'
          and brought back to planet Earth when all the radiation
          has died down in 200 or 300 years...and woken up whatever,
          I don't know how they do it...maybe re-seed the planet,
          whatever they do. But get the abductees of here for some
          reason...maybe genetic...maybe they are going to inter-
          breed, create a muscular species. The species [EBEs] don't
          have much muscles."

 <Mickus> "There's already inter-breeding going on."

<Fenwick> "Yes, there is inter-breeding already going on....When men
          and women are abducted their is ova extracted, and semen
          extracted and so on. This is going on for various reasons.
          But genetically, they want to improve their...,get a
          hybrid race that will have their brains, and our muscles.
          Basically they are very weak, physically. But they have
          a lot of mental capacity...they can lift all kinds of
          objects with their minds; they are so powerful with their
          telekinetic abilities. So I think that when you read these
          books...the three books by Harbinson, you are being tested.
          Now, getting back to Armageddon... The war between the
          Arabs and the Jews, and the Soviets and the Americans...
          all involved at once; will last 9 years. The Soviet Air
          Force, Army and Navy...everything will be wiped out by
          the Americans. The Americans will win that battle...the
          Jews will win the battle. The Arabs and the Soviets will
          be wiped out...everything will be gone."

 <Mickus> "That they've sent there..."

<Fenwick> "Yes. Everything is wiped out. The Soviets will have
          nothing left in the Soviet Union. They'll have sent
          everything they've got to Israel. Everything. They'll
          have left themselves defenceless because they figure
          that this is the opportune time to takeover that area,
          which is oil-rich. Obviously they would want that, so
          they will pull out all the stops. And the war will last
          from 1990 to 1999. On July 7th of 1999, the nuclear
          holocaust will occur. That's the date that Nostradamus
          predicted in his book...books, in his predictions.
          That very date."

 <Mickus> "Are you going off that, or is that just a coincidence?"

<Fenwick> "I'll tell you something else, this is from another source.
          I mentioned a deceased member of our organization...his
          name is Charlie Alcock Charlie has a fascinating history
          If you've ever heard of Alcock & Brouwn, they flew the
          Atlantic before Lindburgh, as a team. Sir Charles Alcock,
          was Charlie Alcock's first cousin. Charlie was a pilot who
          flew in various air races, in Cleveland...various races,
          etc. He flew for won a race for England, and was given an
          escorted Helicopter tour of London, with Price Phillip at
          the controls, and was given a surprise dinner with the
          Royal Family. He ran a joke shop of all things, while
          living here in Toronto. He had died of a second stroke."

          "He had had a sighting of a UFO and had told his friend who
          happened to be Commander of Wordsmith [sp?] Air Force Base
          in Michigan, around Sudbury [Ontario] when they went skeet
          shooting one time. The friendship was terminated at that
          point. When Charlie talked to me, he said that the commander
          said, 'I'm not going to get together with you anymore, I
          don't want to talk about UFOs, and if you are going to talk
          this way, forget our friendship.' And that was it. Charlie
          said, 'Goodbye, I don't need you anymore.' When Charlie had
          his first stroke, he was sent to a Toronto hospital. He
          was up at ambulatory at the time, and 4 people from CUFORN
          interviewed him and tape-recorded the conversation, a 1-hour
          tape which I have at home. He had a Men-Black-Incident [MIB]
          in the hospital. He had talked to someone about the UFO
          event in the hospital, one of the other patients. And just
          the night after that he had a visit in his bedside at night
          by an entity all dressed in black...who warned him not to
          talk any further about this."

<Fenwick> "Charlie mentioned something on the tape which I have,
          of an incident which took place in the 1930's, when he
          was in high school in grade nine."

          "Some thought came to him during class, something about
          in the future. He doesn't know how it came to him. He
          started doodling, and did some drawings. The teacher
          saw him doodling, took a look at the pictures, and then
          confiscated them. After the class, Charlie was asked to
          stay, and the teacher asked him what were the drawings.
          He said they just came to me. She then went to speak to
          the principal about the drawings."

          "What Charlie had drawn was a map of the world. And in
          very large drawing form he draw a series of tanks. And
          in front of each tank there was a large plexi-glass sort
          of shield, through the plexi-glass shield there was an
          opening, through those openings are what looked like
          laser beams shooting out...now this was in the 1930's.
          And the tanks were placed in a sequence, one after
          another...coming from China into the Soviet Union. And
          on several other places on the map, he didn't remember
          where...there were several mushroom shaped clouds. The
          principal did not let it stand at that point. He called
          Ottawa. The next day an official, I don't know at what
          rank, from the Department of National Defense, showed
          up and started talking to Charlie. Here's a grade 9
          kid talking to someone from the Ministry of National
          Defense, who asked him where he got these ideas. Charlie
          said, 'I had a dream I think, maybe it came from that
          dream. And I started drawing what I had seen in the
          dream.' He had dreamt the future...he had dreamt about
          World War III. And the DND now knows."

 <Mickus> "Do you have the drawings?"

<Fenwick> "No. They were confiscated. The one drawing may still
          be in a file somewhere in Ottawa. And Charlie described
          this to us, and he said, ' I think I may have had a
          premonition of the future at that time.' And someone in
          the 1930's at DND must have known something important...
          about Einstein, and maybe a bomb could be developed from
          E=mc2 or something. Maybe Einstein had been in touch
          with some scientists in Ottawa...who knows? And maybe
          that was why that trip was made down from Ottawa to
          Toronto to visit this grade 9 kid. And that is quite a
          story. Now, Charlie worked at Camp X, where spies were
          trained in WW II. He knew what was going on at Camp X,
          he had met David Niven out there, and a few other people
          who were trained as spies in Europe. He had quite a story
          to tell, and its all on this tape anyway. But thats all
          that Charlie had to say in relationship to...what turns
          out to be, or may turn out to be Project Aquarius
          information...classified information, about what is to
          happen in our future."

 <Mickus> "Getting back to the Harbinson books, I got the sense
          too, cause I've just finished reading 'The Light of Eden'
          Are you saying that certain elements of what he is saying
          is true? For instance, Harbinson seems to go off of Robert
          K. Temple's book 'The Sirius Mystery'. He believes that
          they're [aliens] are from there..."

<Fenwick> "...well some of them are."

 <Mickus> "...and that they have been coming in different periods
          of our history to..."

<Fenwick> "Interfacing, causing things to happen. Well Sirius is one
          of the sources. Zeta Reticuli is one supposedly, and Sirius
          is another, and the Pleiades maybe another one. I've heard
          about one or two others, but mostly these ones."

 <Mickus> "But you personally would lean towards..."

<Fenwick> "I would say Zeta Reticuli is the most logical one because
          that was in the Betty and Barney Hill case. That was
          discovered later on, years later once they researched it.
          Thats where they were from. Sirius is probably the second
          [likeliest] possibility. The Pleiades one is a very
          controversial one. That's the Eduard Meier Swiss case,
          which may or may not be true. I just got a book of some
          of the writings of the Pleiades people given to Meier,
          about 150 pages [which contain] some of the things that
          were not on the three videos that were produced in
          connection with the Meier case, which I have at home."

 <Mickus> "How does this mesh with the 'failed experiment'
          [referring to what we talked about in the first 45 mins
          of the interview which was 'lost'], because a lot of
          the talk is that we are entering into a 'new age' of..."

<Fenwick> "...the Age of Aquarius. We're in it. Let me talk about
          something that happened in 1983, in my apartment. Most
          of the CUFORN members attended from the Toronto area.
          Bill Moore was in town."

 <Mickus> "He was there?"

<Fenwick> "He was there, in my apartment. He made a little speech.
          Very short. He stood up in the middle of the apartment.
          I remember that I was sitting on the couch at the time,
          and everyone was standing around or sitting around, I
          haven't got a big apartment...there were about 20 people
          there. I mentioned Project Aquarius to him as he had
          sent a telex, the 'stolen telex', we looked it over...
          we published it in fact. And I said, 'What, do you
          any more about Project Aquarius?" And he said, 'Well,
          I'll tell you something that's connected. In 1990
          something's going to happen on planet Earth which will
          change the course of human history forever, in 1990'.
          And I said, 'Well, how important is it?'. He said,
          'Well it will be as important as if Christ had returned.'
          And I said, 'Is it THAT?' He changed the topic IMMEDIATELY
          [Fenwick's emphasis], to some new information about the
          Roswell incident. He changed the topic very quickly...as
          if he knew what was going to happen at Armageddon in 1990."

 <Mickus> "And referring our telephone conversation, what is the
          'Jesus' connection?"

<Fenwick> "Well, that's pretty difficult to say. The Jesus connection
          I think...we're talking not about Jesus, but about the
          Anti-christ meeting with the Jewish Saviour...who is an
          entirely different person, and with the prophet Elijah who
          may return at the same moment. In other words, three people
          involved, although Harbinson said two in his book. I think
          its three."

 <Mickus> "As an aside, from my own readings on these 'End t>$TCAD<04>)<00>
<00><>5<00><00><>>TOUCH.ME<1A>/'<00><><00>y<00><><17>%UNCLE.LOVE<1A>/<00> <00><><00>y<EFBFBD><79><EFBFBD><17>% as you mention the name
          Anti-christ, seems to suggest a Judeo-Christian context...
          is that essentially correct?"

<Fenwick> "Yes."

 <Mickus> "Well then where do the aliens fit in?"

<Fenwick> "Well I don't know about that part, but maybe we can go
          into that a little later. But briefly, the confrontation
          between Enoch, Elijah...the Jewish Saviour whatever name
          you want to give to him, and the Anti-christ; will be
          a mental confrontation. A battle of minds...which will
          occur on one day..."

 <Mickus> "A battle of 'miracles'?"

<Fenwick> "Possibly miracles, I don't know. On that one day. And
          that will be the key element in the whole 'beginnings'
          of the 9-year war. Now the 9-year war...as I say called
          WW III. Now the 'alien connection' is strictly through
          project Aquarius. They know the future, they know the
          history of this planet...they have a long-term master
          plan for this planet, and it includes WW III. That's
          the only connection."

 <Mickus> "But they're not 'God' though?"

<Fenwick> "No...but they're very close to it. What we would call
          in the old days, 'angels'. The equivalent. Able to make
          miracles. Christ himself may have been a product of a
          hybrid. Mary, under the Immaculate Conception...now
          we're dealing in religion. Now this is one of the reasons
          why Tracy Torme was talking how religion will be affected.
          We talk about the various things that have happened...in
          terms of genetic experiments...interbreeding with the
          abductees. Mary may have given birth to Christ through
          the same means. One ova was extracted, and Christ was born.
          There are a lot of years of Christ that we don't know
          what happened, he was out in the desert and so on. This is
          where the whole thing may have come to fruition. All the
          miracles that Christ was supposed to have done were quite
          common in those days...in terms of capabilities of people.
          A lot of people in those days could do the same things
          as Christ could do."

          "Recently...now I'm digressing somewhat here to religion.
          Harry Tokarz, our co-director, is quite a religious chap.
          He reads a Jewish publication, the 'Canadian Jewish News'.
          And recently...I think this was about 4 months ago...there
          was an article that said the Dead Sea Scrolls are being
          translated by computer. And the latest thing that they
          have come up with, and released to the media...the Jewish
          media, is that in those days...in the days of Christ,
          almost everyone could do the same things that Christ could
          do...but didn't do it openly. Christ did. And he was
          punished for that by being killed and crucified. Not
          because he was starting up a new religion or anything else,
          [but] because he did all these things...and they were not
          [supposed] to be done publicly. And he was taking advantage
          of his abilities...his psychic abilities to do...create
          'loaves of bread out of one'...this sort of thing. And
          everyone could do it in those days. And this is what has
          come out of the dead sea scrolls...this is fact."

 <Mickus> "The Essenes could do this?"

<Fenwick> "Yes...oh yes."

 <Mickus> "But only that limited group though?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know about that. That I don't know. I haven't
          gone that much into it. But the Essenes certainly...and
          maybe a lot of other people in those days had that ability.
          Now, if we were to get into the other aspect of things
          that Christ could do. Moses parting the Red Sea, [he] may
          have had that capability. People in those days were not
          technologically advanced as we are today. They are close
          to the primitive Africans...who can sense things a mile
          away...they have all these psychic/spiritual abilities. I
          think that primitive people were more advanced than we are
          in terms of their mental abilities, and their abilities to
          do things that we would consider miracles. What we call
          miracles were commonplace then. Nowadays if we see a
          'miracle' we wonder if someone is hoaxing us...'this is
          phony, are we being hypnotised, is mass hypnosis going on'.
          They were probably able to do such a thing...hypnotize
          crowds of people into thinking they saw 'a thousand loaves
          of bread' and they weren't. They may have done it [and]
          they may not. So if you're talking about the effect on
          religion...and religious people...very religious Christians,
          if they knew that Christ was the product of inter-breeding
          between creatures from another planet and Mary, ...that
          would destroy the Christian religion utterly, number one.
          It would upset the scientists, and the general public. And
          that's why you keep it from the people. I think that if I
          were in Project Aquarius...if I were a member of Project
          Aquarius...and not one of the ones who are [currently]
          talking; I would say, 'Gee, it is justified. We shouldn't
          tell the people this..., its got to be just too darn
          upsetting. I mean, maybe all our religions were founded by
          them [aliens] in that way."

 <Mickus> "Why doesn't that one part of Project Aquarius 'silence'
          the ten rebels?"

<Fenwick> "There's a battle going on. A mental battle I think, or a
          paper battle. Some say yes, and some say no. And at the
          moment, the ones who say 'release it' are winning. Maybe
          in a few years time, maybe next year it will be the other
          side will hush it all up."

 <Mickus> "Why aren't Condor and Falcon 'kicked out'? I mean, they
          must be able to find out who those two are."

<Fenwick> "They can't."

 <Mickus> "Now the fact that Condor is reputed to be a black man..."

<Fenwick> "...that wasn't publicized in the show. I know it."

 <Mickus> "I know, you couldn't tell by watching the show [UFO Coverup],
          but the fact that a black man would be in a position of power
          like that, isn't that a bit suspect? [Note. To all reading,
          please don't misunderstand what I'm saying].

<Fenwick> "He doesn't got the rank that Falcon has. Condor is the
          black man."

 <Mickus> "And what is his rank?"

<Fenwick> "He's military. Falcon is scientific. He's a scientist.
          Scientist is above the military in MJ-12, under Aquarius.
          Scientist has a higher rank than the military. They can
          find out more, in terms of technological things. They
          supply the information on how the UFOs are propelled...to
          the military...who use it. But without the scientists, the
          military couldn't do a thing. So they get a higher ranking.
          They'd have to."

 <Mickus> "The fact that there is a black man up there..., I can see
          that if they were all Vietnam vets like you said, that
          would make sense there. But what is his 'minimum' ranking?"

<Fenwick> "Colonel. He's at least a colonel, but I don't know his
          exact rank. Stanton Friedman called him, 'Colonel B', just
          gave an initial, that's all."

 <Mickus> "But 'B' may not necessarily stand for anything. Just as
          like 'X' or whatever. 'B' could stand for 'black'."

<Fenwick> "Could use 'X', or however you want to do it. The
          information, according to Tracy he checked everything that
          had been told to Bill Moore. And everything checks out.
          Everything. The credentials...and all the information that
          he has [which] he didn't tell us, I mean I think we've
          know heard about 20% of the information. 15% from Tracy,
          and 5% from that TV show. There's a lot more. And Tracy
          was saying that..., 'if you think that what I have told
          you is astounding, you should hear the rest of it.' What
          we have heard, is nothing compared to the rest of the
          information that Aquarius has come up with."

 <Mickus> "How much more incredible can it get?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know how much more. He said [Torme], 'that it's
          beyond human imagination.'"

 <Mickus> "What would you say to people who try to separate the
          whole UFO phenomenon from religion, but just want to
          look at the empirical data."

<Fenwick> "The technological aspects? From a 20th Century point of
          view, all the technological things can not be done. No.
          The 21st century maybe, if we live that long..."

 <Mickus> "No, what I meant is...can we get a handle on the thing
          by disregarding the religious aspect?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. Oh we can, sure. From what I have read, and I've
          read over 400 books on the subject, I think if you
          were to take an overview of everything that had been
          written, or at least that I have read; yeah, you can
          get a handle on it."

 <Mickus> "Divorced from the religious element?"

<Fenwick> "Oh yes, definitely. There's no question about that."

 <Mickus> "...but you'd be missing the point though, if you didn't
          include it..."

<Fenwick> "You have to include that. That's the original source
          of the 'whole business'. I mean, I think they started
          our religions. I'm pretty sure they started our religions,
          certainly the Christian religion was started by them."

 <Mickus> "What, the one group...the 'grays'?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, the grays."

 <Mickus> "Do you believe there is 70, as in the 'Andreasson Affair'
          book?"

<Fenwick> "70 races there is in the planet, but I don't think that
          there are very many of the other 70 here around. Most
          of them are maybe grays, and some of the 'tall ones',
          and maybe the 'bigfoot' type, whatever. Those are the
          main ones, those are about 90% of them...of the individual
          aliens visiting the planet. That other 10% is the other
          67 races...maybe one or two guys from each race or
          something [who] at various times in our history have
          visited this planet."

 <Mickus> "What about that one reference to the one 'bad' group,
          the bad race [see 'Andreasson Affair']."

<Fenwick> "The bad race, I think we're talking about the grays
          there. I'm not certain. The grays are the bad guys
          supposedly. According to some people...and nobody's
          decided other than the people at Aquarius and MJ-12,
          who would probably know the truth...maybe. Everyone
          else is guessing...that the grays are the bad guys.
          Linda Howe is guessing...and John Lear is guessing,
          and so on. [Why?] Because of what they do to us,
          they abduct us...they are doing things that we don't
          like. If I were a scientist, a genetic scientist from
          another planet, and was coming down to this planet and
          doing experiments...and seeing this 'failed experiment'
          [ie. the human race]; I would do it, without any
          particular care about whether the human beings were upset
          by it or not. I'd just do the job...its my job, what the
          hell."

 <Mickus> "So we're a failed experiment..."

<Fenwick> "...from their point of view."

 <Mickus> "Yes, but what they are going to try and get out of us
          before we annihilate ourselves...which they are..."

<Fenwick> "...under the process of doing. Having us do it [to
          ourselves]."

 <Mickus> "They are contributing those thoughts to people's minds
          or whatever. What they want to take is that which will
          improve their own physiological make-up or whatever."

<Fenwick> "Yes, they're helping themselves. Hell, I would do it too
          if I had no muscles, and wanted muscles...and had the
          genetic capabilities of inter-breeding, sure I'd do it
          wouldn't you?"

 <Mickus> "Now, isn't that sort of a fluke in a way, that two
          different species would be able to inter-breed?"

<Fenwick> "Yes it is, but they 'blend'. They don't inter-breed
          very well, they've had some problems with it...they've
          had some real problems. They're working at it, [after all]
          they've just started at it. I'm sure that they've tried
          other places too. If they've 'seeded' other planets...
          maybe at some places it works perfectly, and maybe at
          other places it doesn't."

 <Mickus> "...Just so that I can get this whole religious schema
          which you've laid out, correct in my mind,...there's
          still 'God' and there's still the 'Devil', and there's
          humans AND there's other aliens which are 'angels'?"

<Fenwick> "What we would call angels. What we call angels...in
          terms of their capabilities and mental state...they're
          close to God."

 <Mickus> "But they're not angels as in our biblical conception
          of St. Michael for example. They may be a step below..."

<Fenwick> "Yes, I'd say just one step below."

 <Mickus> "For instance, there's reference in Genesis to the
          'Nephilim', who were said to be the offspring of
          illicit sexual relations between the 'Sons of God'
          [ie. angels] and 'the daughters of men'. Obviously
          the way you said it, the aliens would have been around
          long before that, but could they be something like that?"

<Fenwick> "Maybe. I don't know."

 <Mickus> "Obviously, what you've described about the Aliens
          involvement in Religion and before Genesis...is all
          pretty muddy."

<Fenwick> "It is, yes. Now as I say, from my point of view, from
          what I know, its muddy. But obviously there is a lot more
          information. Now maybe the majority of the rest of the
          information about Project Aquarius has to do solely with
          religion. It just may be."

 <Mickus> "You mean, what the future make-up might be...how the
          political and social structures might be? Because if its
          just a nuclear annihiliation..., there's gotta be
          something more there..."

<Fenwick> "Well, there's another thing too. Several abductees have
          reported, and we have investigated several cases...very
          plausible cases, where they've been shown the future of
          the planet...on board a UFO, by some sort of screen where
          they show films of the future on this planet. And you see
          devastation...everyone dying, and so on...from geological
          problems [ie. earthquakes, flooding, etc.]. I heard this
          from several abductees, credible people. The two ladies
          who were on the 'Man Alive' show [Note. That show's
          transcript, also done by ParaNet Pi, can be found in the
          File Library under ETHYPE.TXT], Dorothy and Betty...and
          Betty's one of our members by the way. So I questioned
          that, I said, 'You mean all the volcanoes on the earth,
          and all of them are going to erupt simultaneously, and
          all the earthquake faults...minor and major...are going
          to give way at the same time, and the North Pole...all
          the ice will melt very quickly, and all the coastlines
          will be flooded, and so on...' They said they saw all
          kinds of devastation...millions of people dying, they
          saw this. So I said to myself, 'Well...that's a
          possibility, its a possibility.' And I called Larry
          Fawcett, he's a police officer...Lawrence Fawcett. He's
          one of the two writer's of the book 'Clear Intent'. I
          called Larry...and I've talked to him before..., and
          I posed that question to him. I said, 'From whatever
          contacts you have with military intelligence, or whatever,
          could you tell me whether there will be any future events
          that will destroy most of the human race, having to do
          with geological problems." He said, 'No.' I said, 'What
          kind of source do you have?' He said, 'My source is a
          2-Star General who is in Project Aquarius.' He denied
          that anything 'geological' was going to happen. 'Its
          not going to be that at all'. I did not go any further
          and say, 'Well, is it going to be military, is it going
          to be sociological, is it going to be this or that.' I
          could have, but I didn't. I eliminated that possiblity
          as far as his... This is what he said, its second-hand
          information...or third-hand if it came from the aliens..."

          "There's another possibility too, that if you've read
          Thomas Bullard's [sp?] Ph.D thesis on abductions which
          is 600 pages long...dealing with 300 abductions. Most
          of the information given by the aliens to abductee's is
          LIES. So if they show these two abductee's [Dorothy and
          Betty] the future, its a lie. Why they lie, has not
          been gone into by Thomas Bullard. Why do they lie to
          us? Why do they lie to the abductees, about a lot of
          things? More than 80%...somewhere between 80% and 90%
          of the information are lies. WHY? That, we don't know.
          No one has speculated on that. You have to put yourself
          in their place. Suppose you had an IQ of 200, and you
          were 400 yrs. old, and you came from another planet to
          a planet where you were experimenting with people; why
          would you lie to them about their future. This is
          something that is a profound question...that no one has
          gone into in the UFO field...as far as I know. You
          have to put yourself in their place, and you can't do it.
          I mean, I got a 155 IQ, but its not 200! So I don't
          know, speculation is all you can do."

          "If what we've heard is true, and the events take place,
          then it will be too late to do anything about it anyway.
          If it doesn't happen, then we know that what Bullard's
          study has shown, is true...that it's lies, its all
          baloney. That what has been told by the aliens to MJ-12,
          and in particular to Project Aquarius...is lies. That
          is the most profound question. Probably the most profound
          question in the history of the human race. Because if it
          isn't lies...about WW III...then we've had it. We might
          as well live it up while we can too [laughter]. My way
          of living...I live it up, I'll tell ya. There's nothing
          that I won't do...within reason [more laughter]. But I
          stay within the law by the way."

 <Mickus> "What do you see happening in the next 2 years...what
          kind of things are going to surface?"

<Fenwick> "Well, if you talk about that television show on Oct.14th
          UFO-Coverup LIVE, and you look at the date now...and you
          follow the media; there hasn't been one single bit of
          reaction in the United States, because of the elections
          going on now. They are all concerned with elections. This
          wasn't the time to have that TV show on, everyone is
          concerned with the election. They should have waited until
          after the election. But they figured this; they wanted
          Reagan to open up...Reagan knows whats' going on. They
          figured that he would come up with a statement before the
          election,...he's a lame-duck president. If he makes a
          statement before Monday [Nov.7/88], then that show will
          have done some good. If he doesn't, then that show will
          have been no good at all, 'cause that's what they wanted.
          They wanted that show to be a catalyst, so that Reagan
          would talk publicly to the American public about what's
          going on. They had hoped that."

 <Mickus> "And what is Reagan's connection?"

<Fenwick> "He's part of the whole process...he's briefed."

 <Mickus> "Is he a member?"

<Fenwick> "Of Aquarius? Sure."

 <Mickus> "So its basically everyone in the upper hierarchy of
          the government."

<Fenwick> "We're talking about director of the CIA, director of
          the National Reconnaisance Organization, the National
          Intelligence Agency. The NRA wasn't mentioned there,
          there's also the Continental Army Intelligence Command.
          Those are some of the other agencies that werern't
          mentioned on that television show, but they were
          involved as well. The heads of them, the directors of
          them. Only them; who would have what they call, 'a need
          to know' basis. And on that basis, they are given the
          information...and they are not told what the other people
          know. They are only told what they need to know, for
          their own particular purposes. Their specialties are used
          by Project Aquarius. Reagan is not part of Project
          Aquarius, he is briefed on what they know."

 <Mickus> "So he's not one of the 24?"

<Fenwick> "He's briefed, that all. And the CIA director is not one
          of them necessarily. We don't know exactly who. It
          changes over the years. People die off obviously, all the
          original MJ-12 people are dead...except for one person."

 <Mickus> "And who is this?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know his name. I have a photograph of him with
          President Eisenhower...which was sent to me by one of
          our members [CUFORN] in western Canada, who has been in
          touch with a MUFON State Director who knows this man;
          knows where he lives, knows his name. Our Winnipeg
          member refuses to disclose the name to me, Harry and Joe
          [the 3 CUFORN Directors]. He will not give us the name of
          the man. The man is either 78 or 82 [years of age],
          somewhere in that area. He was in charge of

















          back to his original feeling that he should release the
          notes. And he mentioned also...the Winnipeg member
          mentioned that...his name is Grant Cameron [sp?] by the
          way in Winnipeg. He said that at the meetings, there
          were two meetings at which he presided, that he knows
          of; at those meetings were pieces of UFOs, dead aliens,
          and about 100 stenographers and secretarys taking notes,
          with the old stenographers and dictating machines and
          so on,...and they're all dead. Except this one man.
          Everyone is gone, every single person who was at those
          meetings is gone...except him. If we can track him down,
          that's the biggest story of all time...to get him to
          talk. One of the MUFON directors of one of the states
          was in touch with him AND his son. Now his son wants
          the father to release the information, but his father
          refuses now."

 <Mickus> "Why isn't he 'silenced'? Why don't they just do away
          with him?"

<Fenwick> "Because no one knows what's going on, besides the few
          people in the UFO community. This is very confidential."

 <Mickus> "Until now."

<Fenwick> "Well yes, obviously. Bill Moore and Stanton Friedman,
          particularly Bill Moore...is sort of on the outs with
          everyone else in UFOlogy; because he criticizes and
          debunks everyone except...anyone connected with the
          Roswell Incident, fine, or Gulf Breeze now. He has made
          a lot of enemies...Bill has. And people aren't passing
          information along to him in the UFO field..."

 <Mickus> "Anymore, or not much...?"

<Fenwick> "No, not very much at all. He will either debunk it, or
          keep it for himself and try and make money out of it.
          Because he's got no other income, other than his little
          lists of books he sells and magazines whatever, and
          pamphlets. So there is a lot of people who just don't
          want to talk to him...about what's going on. Now I
          talked to Stanton; Stanton's okay...but he's sort of
          under Bill's thumb. Whatever Bill says, [Stanton will
          say] 'Oh yah...", which is very unusual for Stanton
          because he's a very independent type of guy. But they
          work as a team, with Shandera. And Linda Howe...and
          John Lear...are quite aware of what's going on, of
          that aspect. They are quite upset by it."

 <Mickus> "What...the secrecy...the cliques?"

<Fenwick> "Yes the secrecy, and the cliques...exactly. I mean
          there's no room for cliques. I've written several
          editorials...one of which appeared in 'Flying Saucer
          Review' in England...about this situation. About the
          secrecy between UFOlogists. Work as a team as I've
          stated. Why don't we all work as a team...we could
          discover so much more as a team, than bickering
          among UFOlogists."

 <Mickus> "There's so little time..."

<Fenwick> "Yes. And they have rumours flying around. That's a
          waste of time! John's repeating rumours he's heard
          from Linda Howe...Linda Howe's repeating rumours
          she's heard from John Lear. Then other people hear
          about those rumours...and they get exaggerated even
          more so. And what's the truth? Who knows if there is
          anything to it. We have to get at the essence of what's
          going on. We want to find out all the other information
          about Project Aquarius. That's what we have to centre
          on. I was talking to Allen Spragget [sp?], who is
          probably Canada's foremost authority on ESP,...I took
          a night school course on ESP from him. He's interested
          in the UFO phenomenon, and he got a million dollars
          recently, from a Canadian benefactor to do a TV show,
          a series of shows on ESP and UFOs. Only one show on
          UFOs. He want the opening one [to be on UFOs]. And he
          thought that he would do one on MJ-12, and he told me
          about 3 days before the TV show was on, and I said,
          'You're a little late, in a matter of fact the show
          [UFO Coverup] is going to be about MJ-12.' [and then
          Spragget said], 'Oh...well that's out. What else can
          I do?' And I said, 'How about Project Aquarius. Only
          one show only on Project Aquarius.' He said, 'Fine.
          Where am I going to get the information?' 'Well', I
          said to myself, 'You're not going to get it from
          Bill Moore, but maybe you'll get it from Stanton
          Friedman.' So I gave him Friedman's address and phone
          number, in Fredericton. I haven't called Allen to see
          whether he's spoken to Friedman, and what information
          he's gotten from Friedman, or how many leads he's
          gotten. I doubt very much if Friedman even knows Allen
          Spragget. Allen's published a few books on psychic
          phenomena and so on."

          "If that were to come to pass...that a Canadian show,
          or series...with the opening segment on Project
          Aquarius, [that] would be the most astounding media
          event in history. To get that on the air...all the
          information..., if Stanton would talk openly about
          all the information he knows."

 <Mickus> "What do you think he knows?"

<Fenwick> "I think he knows it all. But if he would talk about
          it, and he thinks it should be done...  If they can
          get MJ-12 on a show, then why can't they get all that
          Project Aquarius stuff? It's not that much more of a
          leap...at least I don't think so, maybe it is...,
          Certainly if you can even mention Project Aquarius, as
          it was mentioned several times on the show [UFO Coverup],
          if you could even have mentioned that, then you've really
          got something. You've got your foot in the door...to
          breaking the whole thing wide open. But the key is 'the
          old man', what I call 'the old man'...whoever he is. If
          he will change his mind again; if Friedman can get to
          him. If he's right, Friedman says, 'I think I know who
          he is.', but he's not certain. Now whether he's gone
          after the wrong guy or the right guy...I don't know.
          I haven't spoken to Stanton in a while, its been about
          2 months since I've spoken with Stanton. If Stanton
          can get the old man to talk...then that can go on
          Spragett's show."

 <Mickus> "When is Spragget's show scheduled for?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know. He has to get information before he can
          do a show...so he's waiting. He's trying to find out
          more."

 <Mickus> "So you're encouraging Stanton and others to..."

<Fenwick> "...to be open. And join in a group effort. You've
          got to have that."

 <Mickus> "Do you think a lot of this reticence has to do with
          people wanting credit and..."

<Fenwick> "...and Ego. Bill Moore has the highest ego that you
          ever want to see in a UFOlogist...there's no question
          about that. There's no room for ego in this deal. We
          need co-operation. I was talking to Allen Hynek...I've
          met him in person several times, the late Allen Hynek...
          and each time I did, he said the same thing I'm telling
          you. Co-operate, CO-OPERATE...as a team. We need a team
          effort. There shouldn't be a MUFON, an A.P.R.O., an a
          NICAP, and all these other organizations. Well, there's
          no longer any NICAP or A.P.R.O., [but still ones like]
          CUFOS. There should be ONE the entire world,...with
          translation facilities and so on. Then you get the heart
          of the matter, then you can find out what's going on."

 <Mickus> "You have a network of people..."

<Fenwick> "Yes. And that's why the computer end of things is a very
          good idea. Because you do have the burgeoning network of
          people in the computer field. How many people are involved
          now in the computer field in UFOs. Its growing all the
          time. I think that there have to be more people who are
          in it full-time. That's the problem,...computers are a help."

 <Mickus> "Do you think that we have got to have less 'armchair'
          UFOlogists, and more people like yourself who are giving
          money for research and..."

<Fenwick> "...yes. And speaking...I've spoken at libraries and so on.
          And giving the information to the public...it has to be
          out there. Because, sure a lot of people may be bewildered
          by it, may not believe it, may not understand it...but
          there may be the odd one...all you need is one or two who
          have information..."

 <Mickus> "...you touch a nerve."

<Fenwick> "And touch a nerve....and [hope] they'll talk. Someone
          will say, 'I know someone who knows someone...', and
          then you go after that person, and say, 'Oh...what's
          his name, where does he live...give me his phone number
          and his address. Get that...if you can't get that, then
          forget what you've heard because it could be distorted."

<Mickus> "Yes, it's amazing how that can work. For instance I have
         someone on my BBS, not involved with UFOlogy at all...but
         yet he has a degree in Physics which he received at the
         University of New Brunswick, where Friedman taught. It
         just so happened that this particular individual was in
         charge of getting good speaker's for special physics
         department lectures, and when a good speaker from the
         states was available and he didn't have enough money to
         get him, he would go to the people who control the purse
         strings and request more funds. Alls he would have to do
         is hint that they were thinking of getting Stanton to
         speak, and shortly thereafter the money would become
         'available'. This of course refers to the stigma which
         other professional people place on anyone involved in
         a subject like UFOs. Your reputation is on the line."

<Fenwick> "Stanton's expensive. He charges $1000 an hour for
          lectures, plus airfare to wherever he's going, colleges
          and universities. I charge $50."

 <Mickus> "Does he lecture about nuclear physics?"

<Fenwick> "No, UFOlogy. He lectures at Universities. He's
          lectured at something like 300 Universities and Colleges
          across North America. But that's a weekend deal. And
          he's worked for the New Brunswick Power Commission, he's
          worked on the irradiation of food, that sort of thing.
          And that's his full-time job. So weekends he'll lecture
          at symposium somewhere or at a library or university or
          something."

 <Mickus> "The fact that he is getting such big money, do you
          think that that has some bearing on his willingness to
          release all that he knows?"

<Fenwick> "No. He has a big family, wife and kids. Stanton has to
          support a lot of research. He does a lot of research, not
          just lecturing. But he's after this Aquarius stuff...
          His phone bill alone is about $2000 a year at least."

 <Mickus> "I've spent that much on phone bills in 7 months."

<Fenwick> "If you have independent income, its great. What we need
          is a few millionaires in the UFO field."

 <Mickus> "Or a couple of rich widows..."

<Fenwick> "There aren't that many, John Lear's one I suppose. John's
          got a lot of money. We need more."

 <Mickus> "Well, he's got...I think he's got enough that he can
          afford to get around and do a lot of footwork. [Enough]
          to get out of the armchair and do some of this stuff."

<Fenwick> "He doesn't have the access to people that Bill Moore has
          though, or Friedman, or Tracy Torme for that matter."

 <Mickus> "Well, he was just meeting with 4 military people dealing
          with some sort of experimental weapons testing. He's
          got a lot of contacts in the aviation community as well.
          So he's got that going for him, other than just being
          a so called "celebrity's son". He talks a lot about SDI..."

<Fenwick> "How old is John by the way?"

 <Mickus> "He's about your age, in his 50's. He talks about SDI as
          being a weapon against the EBEs."

<Fenwick> "Oh yes, of course it is. That's well known among certain
          UFOlogists."

 <Mickus> "Could you elaborate then?"

<Fenwick> "Okay. Part of the exchange of technology which started in
          1975 was [that] SDI was given to the Americans."

 <Mickus> "What...lasers, particle beams?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, all this sort of thing. There was a little bit
          given mentally...in the 1930's to Bertrand Russel and
          Albert Einstein, about stealth technology. Which
          culminated in the 'Philadephia Experiment'. That was
          stealth technology, but the ship...[had] invisibility
          to radar, not invisibility...invisibility to radar.
          And that was continued. Then [with] the agreement,
          they were given more information in 1975 as to how to
          really set-up the stealth technology, also [with] the
          'Star Wars' system. Supposedly the 'good guys' are
          coming into this planet, and the 'grays' want to repel
          them using the Star Wars technology. Star Wars is not
          Soviet vs. American. It's Gray vs. the Nords or the
          tall ones. That's all it is. Its a cover operation.
          This is one of the things that John Lear was talking
          about, and Linda Howe...and also a fellow down in
          Arizona who has his scientific labs next to Kirtland
          Air Force Base."

 <Mickus> "You know the name of the lab?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, 'thunder'. Dr. Paul Bennewitz who is an electronics
          engineer. He was involved with the Kirtland sightings
          and so on. He's mentioned that 'stolen telex', having
          taken photographs of UFOs and so on...film, he's
          filming them."

 <Mickus> "This is the telex that Moore reproduced?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. He re-typed it. I think you have to realize that
          there is sometimes more than meets the eye. You read
          about the strategic defence intiative and stealth
          technology...this was given to the Americans as part of
          the agreement. And the other part of it,...part of the
          exchange or agreement was that the aliens and the
          American military were to collaborate on the cattle
          mutilations. The mysterious cattle mutilations that
          occurred...there was 100,000 of them known in the
          United States and Canada and other parts of the world,
          including Puerto Rico..."

 <Mickus> "...which were to get biological..."

<Fenwick> "DNA. In order to bring back one in 200 or 300 years,
          once the radiation has died out in this planet, a new
          race...a new 'Adam and Eve'...and cattle. You got to
          have food obviously. So you re-build, you build cattle
          whatever, out of DNA you 'grow' them. And this is the
          way you do the necessary work if you're going to think
          in long terms."

 <Mickus> "So this would tend to give credence to the fact that
          there is going to be a nuclear holocaust."
          "To get back to something we talked earlier on, how
          does the Jewish Messiah scenario going to work?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know. I really don't know. What I've said
          is all I know."

<Fenwick> "...I think that there is a lot of speculation about religion
          going on today among people who don't know enough about
          projecty Aquarius that would lead them astray as to what the
          facts are. Whatever they are, I don't think they got them, I
          have a hunch about that."

 <Mickus> "You're saying that the people looking at the religious
          elements, don't know enough about the actual documents,
          [content] etc...."

<Fenwick> "No...they are not interfacing enough...the people in the
          the religious field...such as Barry Downing and so on, they
          aren't communicating enough with people like Friedman and
          Moore...and so on, and Lee Graham. If they were to do that,
          they might come up with a lot more...of the religious aspect."

 <Mickus> "...you mean get a total picture of what's going on..."

<Fenwick> "Yeah, I think so, this is where you'd have to have
          co-operation between two extremes...religion and science in
          a way...but you don't get that. Separate fields...it
          shouldn't be...it should be one field...one entity, one
          group working together. Tracy and Mel [Torme] his father are
          very much like myself, sort of agnostic, they don't bother
          much with religion, although they are Jewish."

          "...Harry [Tokarz - CUFORN Director along with Joe Muskat and
          Larry Fenwick] does tend to go off the deep end at times...
          about theory...on theories. He doesn't go off on tangents like
          I do, I tend to go back and forth."

 <Mickus> "Is he Christian?"

<Fenwick> "No, he's Jewish. So is Joe, Joe Muskat our President, he is
          also Jewish. Joe isn't much in the UFO field, he's our
          president, just nominal, he knows a lot about photography, and
          is very skeptical...fairly skeptical. He's done some good field
          investigations, he's very good at that. But Harry is an all
          round type...now I'm not that good at field investigations, I'm
          good at writing about them, being a journalist. I've done some
          ...but Harry is probably the best out of the three of us...out
          of the triumvirate...troika, whatever you want to call it."

          "We've had some enquiries from the Soviet Union too...three.
          One from membership, from East Germany....one asking questions
          about telepathy and our research with UFOs, from a member of
          the Soviet Academy of Sciences from Novisibirsk, Siberia. The
          Institute of Medical Sciences...the man who has experimented
          on telepathy with rats...successfully. It was written up in a
          book called "Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain",
          something like that...I've forgotten the name of the book now.
          It was written by one of the fellows who used to write for the
          Inquirer [Enquirer...or Inquirer?], I don't recall his name.
          Those enquiries were quite interesting, I called the RCMP
          [Canadian Police organization akin to the FBI-CIA] on those."

 <Mickus> "And what happened..."

<Fenwick> "...we discussed it in my apartment for three hours with two
          members of the RCMP. One veteran man from the security service,
          who has since been transferred to Ottawa. And the other fellow
          from the communications division. I answered the letters with
          questions, in another letter. And I said [to the RCMP officers]
          make sure you intercept any replies you get from the Soviet
          Union, and I don't want to hear what the replies are. I don't
          want to hear."

 <Mickus> "Oh...really?"

<Fenwick> "Nah."

 <Mickus> "...you just didn't want to get mixed up in this..."

<Fenwick> "That's right. They spent three hours in my apartment...we
          talked about underwater bases in Lake Ontario, and this sort
          of thing, and they said 'We know about it, but we can't
          afford to get down there to see them.'"

 <Mickus> "Really?"

<Fenwick> "Yeah, they know there's a base under there. Near Hamilton
          in fact. In the deepest part of the Lake, there is an
          underwater base containing a museum."

 <Mickus> "Containing a museum?"

<Fenwick> "Yeah, one of the two museums they [EBEs] have. One of two we
          know of. One off of Cape Cod, and one in Lake Ontario. The
          one off of Cape Cod is a technological museum which deals with
          living things, which are frozen in time...sort of."

 <Mickus> "Ours or Theirs?"

<Fenwick> "Ours. The one in Lake Ontario is a technological museum of
          devices for [determining?] past, present and future. Our future.
          And those have been recounted in two abduction cases. The
          'Andreasson Affair' was the Cape Cod one, the museum was
          mentioned there. And the abduction in St. Catherines of Jack T,
          that was the technological museum.

          So they're setting up museums...maybe for tourists...from other
          planets? I dunno...who knows? I mean what the hell would you
          do with a tourist, you go to museums. Logical enough from our
          point of view. [previous paragraph was tongue-in-cheek]"

 <Mickus> "You sure that they're not Labs?"

<Fenwick> "No...no, they aren't. They don't do experiments. They are
          frozen in...plastic, something like that."

 <Mickus> "Now, this entering into Lake Ontario, how would they actually
          do that...just go into the water?"

<Fenwick> "Yeah. Going into the water, sure. They don't create a splash
          or anything like that. They deflect gravity, and deflect the
          waves so that there is no splash and so on. We've had a few
          reports, some daylight reports that I've had. People won't
          talk any further about them. This one guy, someone I knew
          through a friend at work...who had been out in a boat in Lake
          Ontario, just down near Humber Bay. One afternoon, rain had
          just stopped...he was out fishing. And he saw this UFO under
          the water...fluorescent...long sort of circular disk, under
          the water, just a few feet under the water, it was smoothing
          along under water, and it went out way towards Mimico, then
          went Shooooshhhh back up to the sky like that [motions a
          sharp steep upward curve]. Just like that. And I can't even
          get the man to talk any further. I only spoke to him through
          someone I knew through work, and not only on the phone...I
          know the girl, this is her brother in-law. Went out with a
          couple of other guys, there was three guys who saw this thing
          and it was in broad daylight. It was just under the water, and
          right beside their boat. They were scared as hell. And they
          saw it shoot up into the air, it was sort of a greyish metallic
          colour to it...and it went straight up, and was a disk shape.
          And this is...oh about five years ago, something like that. I
          have to look up my notes, I only made scribbled notes from a
          telephone call at work, and it was all...I have a lot of
          scribbled notes unfortunately. Only once in a while I get
          around to typing some of this stuff out."

 <Mickus> "One of the things mentioned by John Lear, as shown in this
          column in the Fall issue of the Skeptical Inquirer is that
          the Air Force currently has about thirty bodies of extra-
          terrestrials in their possession. Do you think that is an
          accurate number.?"

<Fenwick> "I would think so."

 <Mickus> "What about live aliens, are there any currently being held
          captive?"

<Fenwick> "Yeah, there is one which is the guest of the American gov't,
          obviously one. I wouldn't say that he's a captive he's a
          guest."

 <Mickus> "And what do you know in regards to that?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know what he would know. I really don't know."

 <Mickus> "But where is he staying, how are they treating him? Do
          you know anything about that?"

<Fenwick> "No. No. I don't no. Other than what was on the TV show I
           don't really know. But if he is a guest of the American
           government, that could be a pseudonym for a captive. But
           if they are running the show. If these aliens are...and I
           say IF...if they are running the show, they are telling
           the Americans how to handle the whole situation, then He's
           in charge. Not a guest or a captive...he's in charge. He's
           telling them what to do. If you had an IQ of 200, and
           you're 400 years old lets say...375 years old, you can do
           anything you want on this planet, and ain't nobody who's
           going to stop you...really."

 <Mickus> [refering to CSICOP's Skeptical Inquirer - holding up an
          issue]

<Fenwick> "...all the debunker's, armchair theorists."

 <Mickus> "What is the line on Klass?"

<Fenwick> "What I know of Klass is through Todd Zechel. Who has had
           battles in print and book.  W. Todd Zechel, who has written
           under the name of Ted Zachary for 'UFO Report' magazine...I
           believe it was. He wrote a few articles [on it]. I forget
           which issue it was, but he has written a few articles under
           his name, and that phony name. And Todd has an unpublished
           phone number, he uses his parent's phone and address...some
           box number in Minnesota. I've talked with his parents, and
           to him, on the phone. I've never met him in person. And he
           and Klass have had this battle about his background. Klass
           says how he worked in a bawdy house, he worked in a gas
           station, [how] he never worked for the National Security
           Agency. And Zechel says he [Klass] worked for NSA for ten
           years and saw autopsy results on his desk...on dead aliens,
           this sort of thing. And he [Zechel] said....he went into a
           whole article, I don't know if you saw the article, I have
           it at home...about Klass and his KGB connections, and CIA
           connections..."

 <Mickus> "Now...do you believe what you are saying? [Klass allegations]"

<Fenwick> "Yes. Implicitly. He went into enough detail, that there was
          not any doubt about it. He talked about Artamanov, who was the
          head of the Soviet KGB's Assassination Bureau, who was a
          personal friend of Philip Klass. He was sent over to assassinate
          another Soviet...and Klass has been friends with him...they have
          gone out on his yacht on the Potomac River...in American waters.
          Klass' apartment, by the way, has been bugged by the FBI...has
          been for quite some time. And Klass refuses to acknowledge that.
          He works as a double agent, for both the KGB and CIA."

 <Mickus> "He's a double agent?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, for quite some time now. He's an "asset". What the CIA
          call an asset. He doesn't work for the CIA directly, he's an
          independent asset, having worked as the editor for "Aviation
          News and Space Technology"...he's what they call an asset.
          In other words, he publishes information that is fed to him by
          the CIA...what they want published about technology....military
          technology...gets into the magazine because of him. Of course,
          he's retired now, he doesn't work for the magazine any more.
          I've seen references to him still being with them [magazine],
          he's not, he's retired. ...And he was seen on the yacht
          talking to Artamanov...the assassin, or the Head of the
          Assassination Bureau. And Klass has admitted publicly that he
          has spent time, in bed, with a Soviet female agent...before he
          met his wife. But he says [Klass speaking], "that doesn't make
          me a KGB agent." [provokes laughter...which causes Fenwick to
          remark]...on no, not much it doesn't [more laughter].

          And then, Zechel had published a series of journals called,
          "For Your Eyes Only", which is a very good title. And I have
          all the issues except for one...but then he [Zechel] stopped
          publishing. And his next issue was supposed to have an article
          showing the Klass-CIA connection in terms of the UFOs. It
          never appeared. And I have not had a chance to get in touch
          with Todd for 5 months...something like that. I paid my dues,
          my subscription fee, but I never got a hold of the that other
          journal, a whole years [worth of] journals missed...I missed
          the last one...and had to renew I guess.

          He's very anti- Bill Moore. They have one hell of a royal
          battle going on in print at times. Much as Klass was against
          Zechel, very vituperative sort of thing."

 <Mickus> "So Klass' role then...is to go around debunking all this
          stuff because...."

<Fenwick> "Because he's been told to."

 <Mickus> "He's been told to?"

<Fenwick> "Sure, he's doing his job, that's all. I've seen all his
          techniques on television...look at your watch...'oh..this
          isn't important, I'll look at my watch...' [Klass] will
          talk in generalities. [example - Klass speaking again]
          'I've done research on so many cases.' What cases? He never
          says. 'Of the hundreds of thousands of reports that I've
          investigated...' Hundreds and thousands? C'mon... Sometimes
          hundreds, sometimes thousands...it varies according to what
          network he's on. In other words...ABC, CBS or whatever...
          you know...it changes all the time. I got one of his books,
          his first book. I went through that with a fine tooth comb,
          and I had marked the margins all the way through. And I
          wrote a letter to him, and he said, "Aw, you're all....if
          you know so much about UFOs then you must be an alien."
          I've got his letter to that effect [laughter]. And I took
          apart his first book completely...I mean there isn't a
          single fact that is verifiable there....and there are a lot
          of lies in there, and a lot of cases that no one in the UFO
          community has even heard of. [In regards to] obvious hoaxes,
          he's picked out those ones...and then says that these are
          typical of the UFO field....that's how he [Klass] operates.
          And I've studied propaganda techniques at first year
          journalism at Ryerson [Polytechnical in Toronto], the first
          thing we did was study a sheet of propaganda techniques...
          and he [Klass] has used them all. He's done his job, and
          the other people at CSICOP have done their job too...
          Sheaffer and Oberg. Oberg is a little more open minded than
          some of the others. Harry [Tokarz] has had some
          correspondence with Oberg...which isn't too bad actually,
          although Oberg threatened to sue Harry, and Harry threatened
          to sue him back...and nothing happened. Those three are the
          CSICOP members in the UFO field...although there was that
          channel 79 thing that they got involved in too, a few years
          ago where there was a debate on UFOs. And then they had...
          whats his name...the head of CSICOP in Buffalo...talk on the
          show, and he was really arrogant...and it was quite a show.

          It seems to me that there is also a Soviet connection, other
          than Klass. First of all, James Oberg does spend time in the
          Soviet Union and he has connections between NASA and the
          Soviet Space program...he speaks perfect Russian...and so
          does Carl Sagan speak perfect Russian. Carl Sagan spends
          several months of the year in the Soviet Union. And Sagan
          has made his statements through books and other appearances,
          about UFOs...distorting the Betty and Barney Hill case on that
          'Cosmos' series...beyond belief...I mean it [the way Sagan
          presented it] was nothing like what happened. And then there
          was that show that was done on PBS debunking UFO's, and
          [Sagan] got his word in there too, as did Klass. It seems to
          me that the Klass-Oberg-Sagan triumvirate is the Soviet KGB
          connection between CSICOP and the Soviets. That is the
          connection right there. And they may all be double agents."

 <Mickus> "What is the Soviet UFO interest anyway?"

<Fenwick> "The interest in the technology...propulsion systems."

 <Mickus> "Do they have similar things going on as in the alien - U.S.
          government arrangement?"

<Fenwick> "We've heard a few things, but only through the Enquirer,
          about supposedly there was an attack on an alien base by
          the Soviets..."

 <Mickus> "But would you place some credence, or alot [as to the
          veracity of the UFO stories in the 'National Enquirer']"

<Fenwick> "Yes. Some....Some. I think when you look at those three
          fellows, Klass, Oberg and Sagan...you've got certainly
          with Klass a double-agent. Oberg possible. Sagan maybe.
          But I think there is a connection there. Now, I have heard
          stories and theories about maybe the Soviets and the
          Americans are working together on the UFO phenomenon,
          [but] I don't think so. I think that they're both
          interested in it, and that the 'good guys', the 'tall
          ones' [Nords] who look like us, are working with the
          Soviets, and the 'bad guys' [Grays] are working with the
          Americans, which is really strange...but I think that's
          what's happening."

 <Mickus> "So its basically just those two groups [aliens] which
          are involved?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. Those are the two main races, of course."

 <Mickus> "It would seem to make sense [using this scenario] that the
          Aliens would play off the superpowers against one another."

<Fenwick> "Yes, this is why that when the Soviets and Americans talk
          about SDI, the Soviets are against the SDI because any of
          the tall ones who are coming back down to this planet...
          maybe in some future invasion, or whatever in 1990...who
          knows what it is... The Soviets, being linked with the good
          guys would not want the Americans to have the SDI program
          to fend off the good guys. Makes sense...so there may be a
          ...I'm just saying, this is just theory...but it may be, it
          just may be. I hope I'm wrong. I hope the Americans are with
          the good guys, and the Soviets with the bad guys...that
          would make more sense from a Western point of view [jokingly]"


                              [-Break-]


<Fenwick> "...with the U.S. Navy being involved with Aquarius [Project]
          in the states."

 <Mickus> "Is the U.S. Navy to a large degree involved with Aquarius?"

<Fenwick> "Yes...the Canadian...all navies are involved...we have a
          member [of CUFORN] of the Swedish Navy who just joined."

 <Mickus> "Is the fact that the navies are involved related to the
          existence of the underwater bases?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, I think so. Basically, that's part of it. But people
          would never suspect the Navy being involved in land events
          you see, so that's one way of covering it up...use the Navy.
          Its a very good cover."


                             [-Break-]


<Fenwick> "The public must know. It has to be put in the proper context
          for the public, so that they can take it. That's very
          difficult."

 <Mickus> "Getting back to the Moore 'programming' thing, I wanted to
          get into that in a little more detail, 'cause lets face it,
          it does sound a little..."

<Fenwick> "Farfetched?"

 <Mickus> "Farfetched, strange...whatever you want to call it."

<Fenwick> "Yes...it certainly does. He [Bill Moore] may have had an
          incident whereby a scar was left...they [EBEs] took tissue
          samples, and at that time a probe MAY [his emphasis] have
          been inserted in his head. A probe whereby he would be
          implanted with a communication device whereby they would
          program him to act the way that he is acting. Thats all
          I'm saying. Maybe."

 <Mickus> "And when did this incident take place, when you confronted
          Moore with this allegation?"

<Fenwick> "1982 at the MUFON Symposium in Toronto."

 <Mickus> "And you said..."

<Fenwick> "He said...I'll go into more detail here...He said that when
          he was....his mother asked him..."

 <Mickus> "So you asked him first...just to clarify exactly what the
          exchange was between the two of you..."

<Fenwick> "Yes, I said, 'What's that scar...I think I notice a scar
          there?' [Moore now speaking ->] 'Yeah, I covered up my
          moustache' I said [Fenwick], 'How did that happen?' He says,
          [Moore again] 'Well...I think it was as a child, some kid
          threw his little metal toy truck at me' [Fenwick] or
          something like that. [Moore] '...but my mother says it
          never happened. All she said was that I came home bleeding
          one day, and you said' [Moore as a child] 'I don't know
          how this happened.' [Fenwick] And that's all. 'And this is
          what I think happened [Moore referring to the toy truck
          story].' 'But I don't know', he said [Fenwick referring to
          Moore again] 'I really don't know, and I don't want to
          talk about it anymore.'[Fenwick again] ...and that was all."

 <Mickus> "And what was his manner of speech at the time?"

<Fenwick> "And then I said, 'Maybe you were abducted?' He said, 'I
          don't want to talk about anything like that.' [Fenwick
          again] thats all. He had fear in his face...fear in his
          eyes, he was AFRAID [Fenwick's emphasis]"

 <Mickus> "He had fear in his eyes?"

<Fenwick> "Oh Ya, Definitely. He started shaking."

 <Mickus> "He started shaking?"

<Fenwick> "Ya...just for a second. He turned his face away from me."



 <Mickus> "How does the major media handle UFO sighting information?"

<Fenwick> "The three major networks, according to Tracy Torme...there
          are three men who work with Project Aquarius, who are senior
          executives, or are under contract with Project Aquarius, at
          CBS. Three of them. There are two with NBC, and one at ABC.
          In other words they monitor what goes on the air. They WILL
          NOT allow anything to go on the air, because of their status
          within the networks, that has to do with Project Aquarius.
          And that's why ["UFO Coverup - LIVE tv prog] had to go on
          the Lexington Broadcasting System in the states, which has
          one hundred and ninety outlets, and it was on those stations,
          which are in major markets in the United States, and on
          Global [TV Network] in Canada. Not CTV or CBC. Minor stuff
          [tv stations that is]...so this is how they keep it out of
          the major networks."

 <Mickus> "And there is nothing written? Its all verbal?"

<Fenwick> "That's right...Tracy tried to get ahold of ABC, but they
          turned him down flat. And he knows people there, but it
          didn't help any. They are the most likely of the networks to
          put something on [connected with UFOs] since there is only
          one man there from Aquarius, or on contract with them. So
          he [Tracy] thought he'd try that one, but it didn't work."


 <Mickus> "What about Groom Lake, what do you know about that?"

<Fenwick> "That's the crash in '84 of the UFO. Robert Bond, General
          Robert Bond, he's the pilot. That's Groom Lake. I found
          it on the map by the way."

 <Mickus> "Is that a base of some sort?"

<Fenwick> "...its on the fringe of the Atomic Energy Commission's
          testing grounds. Groom Lake is a dry lake, its on the
          map of Nevada, I found it. Fair size lake, a dry lake. Its
          surrounded by mountain ranges...no towns around it. Its
          restricted airspace. That's where the crash occurred. Its
          where they test experimental vehicles, that area."

 <Mickus> "What about Dulce, New Mexico?"

<Fenwick> "Dulce? That's on the border between Mexico and Arizona."

 <Mickus> "And supposedly there is a huge underground base there..."

<Fenwick> "Supposedly, this is Tracy Torme's surmised...what he's
          talked about. No one's seen an underground base [those in
          UFOlogy circles], they've only guessed. Its only been
          guesswork about that, and [about] some incidents that have
          occurred down there, some sightings."

 <Mickus> "...and the incidents...about fighting and shooting between
          soldiers and...."

<Fenwick> "Rumour. Rumour. That's all rumour."

 <Mickus> "So...you have nothing to add then..."

<Fenwick> "No..no...what's been printed in the National Enquirer or
          other magazines or between UFOlogists...no ones proved that
          at all. That could be a lot of nonsense."

 <Mickus> "One question I have to ask [from ParaNet Member Joe Holland],
          goes as follows, ' I keep getting indications the aliens are
          preparing the abductees to act or do something at some future
          time, and they are being programmed with the knowledge of
          what to do, this knowledge to emerge later. Like Budd Hopkins
          said, they were shown a box that they would know what to do
          with later. Have you come across this? What is the future
          time, and what is supposed to happen? A natural disaster?
          An invasion, takeover?'"

<Fenwick> "No one knows...except the abductees....I have a tape of
          'Jack' in St. Catherines, I have a tape of his subconscious
          talking, under hypnosis. Saying that if he were to REVEAL
          what he is programmed to do...then it would self-destruct,
          the program. So it cannot be revealed."

 <Mickus> "So who is this person again?"

<Fenwick> "'Jack'...its not his real name, he's an abductee. One of
          the three guys from that rockband who were abducted
          [reference to a past CUFORN investigation]."

 <Mickus> "Does he have an implant?"

<Fenwick> "Oh Yes, sure. But he is not to know what that mission is...
           You talk about a mission..."

 <Mickus> "Obviously its ominous. An assassination..."

<Fenwick> "Who knows...he's used the name Mission, thats all."

 <Mickus> "So its all just speculation then..."

<Fenwick> "That's right. But Harry and I agree on that...all the
          abductees have the same mission. Helping maybe...helping
          survivors or something. I knows theres been talk..."

 <Mickus> "Oh...so it could be positive in a way?"

<Fenwick> "Oh Yes, sure it could be. The survivors of the catastrophe
          or whatever it is, will be assisted by abductees. Move to
          higher ground or safe ground, whatever. The one geological
          thing was supposed to be the flooding of the coastlines and
          so on, but also [that] southern Ontario will be underwater
          all the way to Barrie. The CN tower will be underwater. And
          this is 1990. We're talking 1990. Also central China will
          be underwater...a huge lake. And England underwater, the
          United Kingdom completely underwater. No Florida left,
          New York City gone."

 <Mickus> "That might indicate some kind of pole shift..."

<Fenwick> "All sorts of things are possible. Maybe a whole series of
          things. But again, this 2-star general said no...nothing
          geological is involved at all. And this is 1990 we're
          talking. Probably just after this, or just before this
          meeting between the Anti-christ and Enoch and so on. All
          that same year...that's what we've been hearing. It just
          seems too much of a coincidence. Something is going to
          happen that year...but what it is I don't know, I'll put
          it that way. Something...but what it is I don't know.

 <Mickus> "You mentioned earlier to me, that you see in the coming
          months, similar Gulf Breeze type incidents, that don't
          exactly create a lot of controversy among the public, but
          the media..."

<Fenwick> "...publicizes them."

 <Mickus> "But you definitely don't think it [GB] was a hoax though?"

<Fenwick> "No. Gulf Breeze? No. I think that there's something to
          it...I don't necessarily believe the photographs, but I
          think somethings happened down there. The photographs
          may be hoaxes. I haven't seen the photographs from the
          other people. No names have ever been released of the
          other people who took these photographs. There's talk
          only. Who are these people? I haven't seen any names."

 <Mickus> "There's something about just looking at the GB photos
          that..."

<Fenwick> "...doesn't seem right."

 <Mickus> "The port holes [in the UFO]..."

<Fenwick> "...I know, it looks too good in a way. Its like the Meier
          case.  I think that something has happened down there [GB],
          and the media are picking up on it. And publicity....in the
          past you never had flaps getting major publicity like this.
          That's the only thing that's happening."

 <Mickus> "Somebody has suggested recently that what could happen is
          that this thing could be exposed shortly, and put UFOlogy
          back underground for another five years."

<Fenwick> "That could happen too. Everyone's cautious about this. You
          have to be. Even MUFON, in their magazines they've said the
          same thing...who knows, maybe its all a hoax. They haven't
          said outright, except lately, that its 99% proven. No ones
          done a complete...not even Bruce Maccabee hasn't done a
          complete enough analysis on these photographs. No one has,
          which is odd. You know Bruce has said that he has looked
          at all the photographs...and he talks about the things he
          looks for...but he hasn't shown anything on that TV show,
          he did not show any printouts of the computer analysis,
          until I see that, and I know how that's done...then I
          leave everything up on the air. I do think that something
          has happened there. If there are ten cases, reports of
          'missing time'...something in UFOlogy, something has
          happened, [if] there have been encounters. The photograph
          may have something to do with something else. I think
          the photographs may be a hoax."


 <Mickus> "Getting back to the Harbinson books now..."

<Fenwick> "They are tests of the readers. The latest one [Light of
          Eden] is a little bit off base. I think of the three books,
          the second one, "Revelation" is the one that is closest to
          the truth. Or certainly would evoke the most comment from
          readers, of the three. [The books] are testing the waters,
          psychological testing. Now maybe the aliens, through NSA,
          through Harbinson, want to test Us...find out what are
          minds are like, how we react to things like this. That
          could be all it is. Its a thought...that may be all that
          they are doing here."

 <Mickus> "Now what if someone says to you, prove to me that Harbinson
          was an NSA operative. What would you say?"

<Fenwick> "How would I prove that Harbinson was NSA?" I've only
          heard through someone else, second hand. And no where
          in the background of Harbinson is it mentioned that he
          was NSA, obviously they wouldn't mention that."

<Mickus> "Needless to say, people are always looking for hard
         proof and evidence in this field, for obvious reasons.
         What would you say to them in light of what you have
         said today, with the many claims?"

<Fenwick> "...thats right [people always say] 'Show me the facts
          ..show me statements...show me statements.'"

 <Mickus> "And no doubt many will say that of you..."

<Fenwick> "Of course, sure. We have to have some skepticism,
          obviously, and I've shown my skepticism to some extent
          [today]. So I think you have to be conservative, and at
          the same time you have to be open-mnded, a little bit
          of both, a balance of the two. I've been 37 years in
          UFOlogy, so I know a little bit about what's going on.
          I have an overview by now. I'm not the only one...we
          have one member [CUFORN] who's been in it longer than
          I have. Bill Allen was formerly a field investigator
          at A.P.R.O, who lives out in B.C.[British Columbia].
          So if you are in it long enough, obviously you are going
          to get some sort of overview."

 <Mickus> "Ok Larry, I think we covered most of the things I wanted
          to cover. If you would like to finish up with a summation
          as to where you think UFOlogy is today, and where its
          headed..."

<Fenwick> "Ok fine...any other questions that you have, I would be
          glad to answer them."

 <Mickus> "Yes, it would be nice if you could come back in, lets say
          three weeks? And attempt to answer any questions that have
          arisen by that time."

<Fenwick> "Yes, sounds fine....There's only about 5,000 people in
          North America involved in UFOlogy...something like that..."

 <Mickus> "Yes, and its growing all the time. A lot of people with a
          casual interest..."

<Fenwick> "Thats all, a lot of those fringe people. We don't get those
          people as members at all, we're too fussy, we're not another
          MUFON. You know they'll accept pretty well anyone into the
          organization. We're fairly fussy about that."


          "I think that what we have to do, is to maintain an open
          mind with skepticism, about whatever we hear about the
          UFO field. Regardless of how long we've been in it, or
          what are viewpoints are. And we have to say to ourselves,
          'If what has been talked about, at this point in time is
          true, [then] there's very little that we can do about it.
          So we might tend to become fatalistic, and say well, live
          it up...live for today and forget about tomorrow, because
          we're all going to go. Or maybe we can say that it is all
          baloney'...and so what? Again, with WW III coming up, what
          can we do to tell the public. Why stick to the UFO field
          then. Why don't we as field investigators, those who have
          gone out into the field and investigated these cases...why
          don't we spend more time educating the public, and not
          saying to ourselves, 'Oh, well what do they [the public]
          know about it'...let them find out what we know about it,
          and what we don't know about it. What we are guessing
          about, and what we know. You have to counter the frustration
          and ignorance of the general public in regards to what
          UFOs signify...I think that might be the best way to put
          it in general. Whats the phenomenon, if you want to use
          the word phenomenon, I don't like the use of that word.
          But what does it mean to the human race, and to the future
          of the human race. If we give information to people...
          information can't hurt you, it can only help you. Fear
          is the worst thing you could have...if you don't know those
          things and are afraid of it. If you know the truth, then
          you can't be afraid. You'll be set free from your fears.
          You have to be willing to disseminate information...and
          mention theory, as theory only...speculation only. Try
          and get feedback from the public also, and from people in
          the military intelligence area who may feel as we do, that
          the public should know more about what's going on. I think
          that summarizes what I'm going to say."

 <Mickus> "If what is going to happen...is going to happen..."

<Fenwick> "...what can we do about it. If we can't do anything about
          it..."

 <Mickus> "...but CAN we do anything about it?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, that's the question, the main question...'can we'. I
          really don't know if we can do anything about it. I've
          been living hedonistically for a few years now, since '82
          actually...[half-humourous]"

 <Mickus> "Yes, but there's got to be something that we can do...
          Education..."

<Fenwick> "Education...preparing people for the inevitable...or the
          evitable...the unavoidable"

 <Mickus> "I mean this isn't set in stone...theoretically people
          could alter what's going to happen..."

<Fenwick> "En masse maybe, not individually. If they [EBEs] know the
          future, then there's nothing we can do about it."

          "You have to discuss using, if you are in the UFO field,
          your knowledge...your background, your reading...your
          contacts, your speculations. You have to discuss all these
          things, cases...individual cases. You have to discuss
          statistics...the results of statistical studies that have
          been done. And unfortunately there have been a lot of
          statistical studies done, but very little in the way of
          analysis of the statistics, in every area of the UFO field.
          That needs to be done, and very few writers have done it.
          I mean that there's a lot of books out...various compendiums
          of things, and specific cases... You have to be very
          cautious about what you read about the UFO field. You
          have to make notes as you read. [saying to yourself] 'I
          remember this case...that correlates with the one he's
          talking about in this chapter here...or make a note in the
          margin about another case...' And I do that when something
          ties in. If you get enough..., its like, if you go out to
          investigate a UFO report, if theres only one observer, then
          it doesn't mean a lot, if there are two...then it means
          more. Same theme, correlations...combinations, this sort of
          thing, multiple observer...and cases that are similar in
          some respects...that are major aspects of a case."

 <Mickus> "The 'yellow book' and the 'blue book'...do you know what
          is in those?"

<Fenwick> "No. Sounds like a whole bunch of things are mixed in. I
          would be more interested in reading what Meier supposed...
          I've got a little bit more about him..."

 <Mickus> "So you're not willing to write the Meier thing off?"

<Fenwick> "No I'm not. Nor is Harry [Tokarz], Harry thinks its all
          genuine too. Joe [Muskat] is skeptical. Very...he thinks
          its all baloney, that Meier thing. I don't know. I just
          don't know. I have to be honest, I don't know. I'm neutral
          on that. Show me...show me the facts, show me proof...
          evidence, enough evidence that constitutes proof in a court
          of law. Regardless what Phil Klass says, 'he says show me
          the proof?' We show him evidence, and that's not enough.
          [show Klass] Massive evidence, still not enough. That's
          extreme..., stupidity not skepticism."

 <Mickus> "What's Moore's agenda?"

<Fenwick> "I wish I knew."

 <Mickus> "Is his linked to the aliens agenda?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know."

 <Mickus> "But he at this point, knows everything...he's just releasing
          bits and pieces..."

<Fenwick> "Yes...and Harry keeps accusing him of wanting to make money
          out of it. Because...well he's got no other income, actually
          he has to, you can't blame him."

 <Mickus> "Do you think that he [Moore] is pretty fatalistic about
          this whole thing? And he's just in it right now for what
          he can get out of it?"

<Fenwick> "Ask him...I don't know. And Bill doesn't talk. Bill is
          very very sensitive. You can bring up a topic on UFOlogy
          and he'll say, 'Well, I'd rather not talk about it.' He
          wants to make money out of it...thats all there is to it.
          He has kids...a divorced wife, and kids to support and so
          on, so you can't blame him, I would too. Hell, you got no
          other income, you gotta hold back [on the release of info].
          You can't give all the information out, if you are going
          to put it into book form, or a video to sell...or whatever.
          That's the way he's got to do it, I'm sure. Harry is very
          jealous of the fact that Bill is on it full-time, a lot of
          people are I would think. You have to look at it from
          Bill's point of view too, really. There's two ways of
          looking at it. You have to put yourself into the other
          person's place."


 <Mickus> "Well, Thank You very much Larry for this interview."

<Fenwick> "Yes, my pleasure. Hope to see you in three weeks time
          to respond to any questions."


                                           [-END-]


======================================================================

As was mentioned in the interview, Larry Fenwick, due to the fact that
he is not yet linked up with a computer and modem (perhaps in 6 months
time), has agreed to come back to my residence to answer any questions
that may have arisen over some of the content contained herein. The
Interview took place on Nov.6, so I expect Larry to return towards the
end of Nov/88. In addition, future interview and input by Larry on the
system, have not been ruled out. This interview was not intended to
plug CUFORN (Canadian U.F.O. Research Network - Incorporated 1977) If
you would like more information on CUFORN, please access the CUFORN
Bulletin Menu Option off of the UFOlogy Menu here at ParaNet Pi.

Those wishing to submit questions (not attacks), are asked to leave
them in the UFOlogy Conference Area here at ParaNet Pi. Upon calling,
you will be given immediate access to both the UFOlogy Conference
and UFOlogy File areas (where currently we have over 250 UFO related
files on-line, along with file captures of the FIDONET UFO Echo, and
ParaNet Alpha Msg Base). Questions should be addressed to "Larry
Fenwick". His user number here is "70". Questions and/or comments
directed to Larry can be entered in directly, or through XMODEM of
a msg (of not more than 4k) into the Conference area. Anyone who
has questions for me personally, may leave them either in the
Conference area, or through private E-mail, depending on the question.

The transcript of this interview may be reproduced for personal use
only, and may be posted on other Bulletin Board Systems, provided that
credit is given ParaNet. This file may not be edited without the the
permission of Tom Mickus. In addition, this file shall not be printed
in any publication without my own consent. It remains the property of
the Sysop of THE CRUCIBLE, namely...

                                     -Tom Mickus 11/10/88

======================================================================
THE CRUCIBLE <ParaNet Pi>  416-244-9999 - 24Hrs - 12/24/9600 - 44 Megs
======================================================================


 APPENDIX:
 --------

       The following is a brief recounting of what myself and
       Larry Fenwick spoke about in the initial 45 mins of
       the interview. Approximately one third was taken up
       with an in-depth biography of Larry Fenwick. Everthing
       below will be my [Tom Mickus'] words, which I have to
       the best of my ability re-collected as to the content
       and subject matter of what we discussed.



       [Larry Fenwick is in his early 50'. He has had a long
       involvement with the study of UFOs. Originally he got
       fascinated with the subject in the early 1950's, when
       I believe he read Donald Keyhoe's book on the subject
       entitled something like "Flying Saucers are Real". He
       is of Jewish descent, although I believe he would
       characterize himself as "non-practicing". In his early
       years he had some difficulties in high school, and
       flunked several grades. Later on he took 2 years of
       psychology in University, but did not graduate. In
       the 1960's he attended Ryerson Polytechnical Intstitute
       in Toronto, Ontario, and received a degree in journalism
       shortly thereafter. He later on had several jobs in
       the industry, and journalism led him eventually to his
       role as editor of the CUFORN Bulletin. Like many, it
       was several years before his interest in UFO's grew..
       and eventually he and a few others decided to set an
       incorporated organization called CUFORN (the Canadian
       UFO Research Network). He has been involved with many
       on-site investigations of UFO's since then, and before.
       He has read over 400 books on the subject, and has
       appeared on local television and radio numerable times.
       Through the ebb and flow of interest in UFO's, Larry's
       organization has stayed with it, and today numbers
       around 50 members from across the globe.]

       [In the remaining minutes of the first 45 min tape, we
       discussed the two programs UFO Coverup LIVE, and the
       UNSOLVED MYSTERIES - Gulf Breeze segment. Of particular
       note is that Larry told me that his associate, Harry
       Tokarz, had noticed an unusual buzzing or hum, present
       on the audio throughout the duration of the program.
       Although Larry says that he never noticed it until Harry
       had told him, on subsequent viewing of the videotape,
       Larry agreed that the sound was discernible, and like
       nothing he had ever heard before on a LIVE broadcast. I
       got the distinct impression that he felt that this was
       the EBEs making their presence known, in a method (radio
       interference) not unheard of by UFOlogists.

       We also discussed why the aliens view the human's as a
       "failed experiment".

       When referring to the programming of Hitler by the EBEs,
       which in effect caused World War II (the decisions of one
       man)...Larry also mentioned the one other incident where
       he said that the aliens had manipulated a world leader to
       do their bidding. He cited the fact that John F. Kennedy
       was supposed to bring us to nuclear war, but that he had
       backed down, and as a result the aliens sought "revenge".
       In other words they were wholly or in part, responsible
       for the assassination of JFK. Larry Fenwick gave me a
       name of some person labelled 'the _______ tramp" or vagrant
       or something along that line who was supposed to be
       involved. I plan to get back to Larry to get more specific
       details regarding this sensational allegation. He cited
       the failed Bay of Pigs fiasco as Kennedy's big mistake in
       the eyes of the aliens. JFK was supposed to carry through
       with it, and thus eventually it would provoke nuclear war
       with the Soviets in defense of Cuba. Larry Fenwick said
       that the aliens were not involved with the cause of WW I.

       Fenwick also discussed the role of the Hollywood in
       promoting the "friendly ET image", specifically the role
       of celebrated director, Steven Speilberg. Fenwick said that
       there are two close associates of Speilberg who have been
       encouraging him to produce movies along this line. While
       Speilberg is not "programmed" himself, these other two
       unnamed people apparently attended school with him, and have
       been vigourously suggestive with Speilberg as to what
       directions his movies should be going in. Speilberg is aware
       of this, but has decided to go along. The movies in question
       include of course "Close Encounters of the Third Kind", more
       recently "Batteries Not Included", and of course "E.T. the
       Extraterrestrial"...the most popular movie of all time,
       grossing close to 1,000,000,000 dollars in both movie reciepts
       and in videotape sales. Fenwick has alleged that this
       campaign of showing aliens in a good light, is part of the
       master plan of the EBEs (or aliens), who, for whatever
       ultimate reason, want people to have this benevolent view of
       them.

       That's about it. There was more, but perhaps when my memory
       is refreshed I will be able to recount the rest.]


                          [ - END OF FILE -]





 hroughout the duration of the program.
       Although Larry says that he never noticed it until Harry
       had told him, on subsequent viewing of the videotape,
       Larry agreed that the sound was discernible, and like
       nothing he had ever he