textfiles/ufo/area515.ufo

DATE OF UPLOAD:  December 30, 1989

ORIGIN OF UPLOAD:  ParaNet Information Service

CONTRIBUTED   BY:  Robert  B.  Klinn  -  ParaNet   Director   of

                   Investigations and Research

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(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service

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On the Record, KLAS-TV, Las Vegas, Nevada, 12/9/89, 7:00 p.m.-

7:30 p.m.



George Knapp, producer/host

Robert Lazar, guest



George Knapp:

Hello, and welcome to On the Record.



One month ago, we began a series of reports about UFOs.  With the

exception of a few cranky newspaper people, the response has been

overwhelmingly positive.  We've had requests for more information

from  all over the country and from all over the world.   Tonight

we're  going to delve a little deeper into the subject  with  the

man  who was the impetus for our report in the first  place,  Bob

Lazar.



Bob,  good to have you here.  A thumbnail sketch of yourself  for

those who might not be familiar with your background.



Robert Lazar:

I worked at Los Alamos National Lab.



Knapp:

As a physicist?



Lazar:

As a physicist, and hired as a senior staff physicist at Area  S-

4, for what I was told anyway was the United States Navy.



Knapp:

Where is S-4?



Lazar:

It's  about 10 to 15 miles south of Groom Lake, about  125  miles

north of Las Vegas.



Knapp:

How did you get the job?



Lazar:

I really don't want to mention the guy who I got it through.  But

I  was  referred to a person at EG&G to drop off  my  resume  to;

that's  where  I was interviewed; though the  job  is  COMPLETELY

unrelated to EG&G.



Knapp:

What  did they tell you you were going to be doing?  Or DID  they

tell you?



Lazar:

No,  they really didn't tell me until the very end.  They said  a

high-technology job, something that I'd be very interested in.



Knapp:

Okay, so you get hired.  And what happens?  Do you fly up there?



Lazar:

Fly  up there.  First day was reading briefings and that sort  of

thing.   And it became evident to me pretty quickly the level  of

technology they were dealing with:  gravitational propulsion  and

things that science has really only barely touched on.



Knapp:

We'll  get into the things that you saw in a couple  of  minutes.

But  it's  been about a little more than three weeks  since  your

identity was made public.  We had you on another program a couple

of  months  ago  --  using an assumed  name  and  having  you  in

silhouette  -- but since your identity has been made  public  and

since this information has been made public, what's it been like?

What's been the response from people that see you on the street?



Lazar:

The  response has been almost all favorable.  In  fact,  everyone

that I've run into has been very supportive, very interested.   I

guess there's just two or three letters --



Knapp:

-- from people that don't believe you?



Lazar:

Yeah.  Essentially.



Knapp:

Responses from other media outlets as well?



Lazar:

Yeah.



Knapp:

They want to interview you?  What do they want?



Lazar:

Essentially everything, yes.  Radio interviews, TV interviews.  A

lot  of people want to dig back into my background  and  re-trace

everything.



Knapp:

Many of the people who have been calling -- calling us as well --

were under the impression that either you've gone underground  or

you've been silenced or we've been silenced by dark and  sinister

forces.  Anything like that happen to you so far?



Lazar:

That's ridiculous.  People are always going over the deep end  on

that.   And no one's told me -- other than originally --  not  to

say anything.  And I'm sure no one's come forward to you.



Knapp:

But in the beginning, they told you to keep quiet about this.



Lazar:

Oh yeah!  It's the most secret program in the United States.



Knapp:

In what way did they try to make sure you kept your mouth shut?



Lazar:

Everything up to death threats.  I mean CONSTANT reminders of it,

signing  away  my constututional rights for fair trial  and  that

sort of thing.



Knapp:

And since this thing, your phone's been tapped, you believe?



Lazar:

Yeah, I believe.  I have a tap detector, and occasionally after I

pick up the phone, a little red light goes on.



Knapp:

The  reason you came forward with the information to begin  with?

Is it related to the fact that they were bothering you?



Lazar:

Yeah, it was essentially to stop that.  What had happened was,  I

sent in a request for my birth certificate, and as it turned  out

it wasn't there anymore, that I wasn't born at the hospital!  And

that  kind  of  got me wondering what's going on.   I  put  in  a

request  for some other information, previous jobs, and that  was

also  gone,  and  I thought something had to  be  done  before  I

disappeared.



Knapp:

The same thing -- it was Los Alamos? They've never heard of you?



Lazar:

Yeah.



Knapp:

Anything happened since the reports have aired?



Lazar:

They let me know that they were around by doing stupid,  childish

little things.  But nothing serious, no.



Knapp:

You  were  worried  about your LIFE though  for  a  while  there,

weren't you?



Lazar:

That was one of the reasons to come on and let everything out  on

the air; it's a little of insurance.



Knapp:

Are you worried any more?  Do you get the feeling you're over the

hump?



Lazar:

To some degree, yeah.



Knapp:

Do you find that most people really believe you or that they just

want more information?



Lazar:

I  think alot of people believe what I said, but the  majority  I

think  do  just  want more information, too.   It's  an  in-depth

subject.



Knapp:

Let's look at some of the technology you saw.  When did you first

get  the  idea,  what's the first thing you  saw  that  made  you

convinced that it's not from here?



Lazar:

The  first  thing was HANDS-on experience  with  the  anti-matter

reactor.



Knapp:

Explain what that is and how it works and what it does.



Lazar:

It's a plate about 18 inches in diameter with a sphere on top.



Knapp:

We  have a tape of a model that a friend of yours made.  You  can

narrate along.  There it is.



Lazar:

Inside  that  tower  is a chip of Element 115 they  just  put  in

there.  That's a super-heavy element.  The lid goes on top.



And  as  far as any other of the workings of it, I  really  don't

know, you know, [such as] what's inside the bottom of it . . .



115  sets up a gravitational field around the top.   That  little

wave guide you saw being put on the top:  it essentially  siphons

off  the  gravity wave, and that's later amplified in  the  lower

portion of the craft.



But just in general, the whole technology is virtually unknown.



Knapp:

Now we saw the model.  We saw the pictures of it there.  It looks

really, really simple, almost too simple to actually do anything.



Lazar:

Right.



Knapp:

Working parts?



Lazar:

None  detectable.   Essentially, what the job was  was  to  back-

engineer everthing, where you have a finished product and to step

backwards  and find out how it was made or how it could  be  made

with earthly materials.  There hasn't been very much progress.



Knapp:

How long do you think they've had this technology up there?



Lazar:

It seems like quite a while, but I really don't know.



Knapp:

What  could you do with an anti-matter generator?  What  does  it

do?



Lazar:

It converts anti-matter . . .

It   DOESN'T  convert  anti-matter!   There's   an   annihilation

reaction.  It's an extremely powerful reaction, a hundred percent

conversion  of  matter  to energy, unlike  a  fission  or  fusion

reaction  which is somewhere around eight-tenths of  one  percent

conversion

 of matter to energy.



Knapp:

How does it work?  What starts the reaction going?



Lazar:

Really, once the 115 is put in, the reaction is initiated.



Knapp:

Automatic.



Lazar:

Right.



Knapp:

I  don't  understand.   I  mean, there's no  button  to  push  or

anything?



Lazar:

No, there's no button to push or anything.



Apparently,  the 115 under bombardment with protons lets  out  an

anti-matter particle.  This anti-matter particle will react  with

any  matter  whatsoever,  which I imagine there  is  some  target

system  inside  the reactor.  This, in turn, releases  heat,  and

somewhere  within  that system there  is  a  one-hundred-percent-

efficient thermionic generator, essentially a  heat-to-electrical

generator.



Knapp:

How  is this anti-matter reactor connected to gravity  generation

that you were talking about earlier?



Lazar:

Well, that reactor serves two purposes; it provides a  tremendous

amount  of electrical power, which is almost a  by-product.   The

gravitational wave gets formed at the sphere, and that's  through

some action of the 115, and the exact action I don't think anyone

really knows.



The  wave  guide  siphons  off  that  gravity  wave,  and  that's

channeled above the top of the disk to the lower part where there

are  three  gravity  amplifiers, which amplify  and  direct  that

gravity wave.



Knapp:

In essence creating their own gravitational field.



Lazar:

Their own gravitational field.



Knapp:

You're  fairly convinced that science on earth doesn't have  this

technology  right  now?  We have it now at S-4, I guess,  but  we

didn't create it?



Lazar:

Right.



Knapp:

Why not?  Why couldn't we?



Lazar:

The technology's not even -- We don't even know what gravity IS!



Knapp:

Well, what is it?  What have you learned about what gravity is?



Lazar:

Gravity  is  a  wave.  There are many  different  theories,  wave

included.   It's been theorized that gravity is  also  particles,

gravitons, which is also incorrect.  But gravity is a wave.   The

basic wave they can actually tap off of an element:  why that  is

I'

m not exactly sure.



Knapp:

So you can produce your own gravity.  What does that mean?   What

does that allow you to do?



Lazar:

It  allows you to do virtually anything.  Gravity  distorts  time

and  space.  By doing that, now you're into a different  mode  of

travel,  where instead of traveling in a linear method  --  going

from Point A to B -- now you can distort time and space to  where

you essentially bring the mountain to Mohammad; you almost  bring

your destination to you without moving.



And since you're distorting time, all this takes place in between

moments of time.  It's such a far-fetched concept!



Knapp:

Of  course, what the UFO skeptics say is, yeah, there's life  out

there  elsewhere  in the universe; it can never come  here;  it's

just  too darn far.  With the kind of technology  you're  talking

about, it makes such considerations irrelevant about distance and

time and things like that.



Lazar:

Exactly, because when you are distorting time, there's no  longer

a  normal reference of time.  And that's what producing your  own

gravity does.



Knapp:

You  can go forward or backward in time?  Is that's  what  you're

saying?



Lazar:

No,  not essentially.  It would be easier with a model.   On  the

bottom  side of the disk are the three gravity generators.   When

they  want  to travel to a distant point, the disk turns  on  its

side.  The three gravity generators produce a gravitational beam.

 What they do is they converge the three gravity generators  onto

a point and use that as a focal point; and they bring them up  to

power and PULL that point towards the disk.  The disk itself will

attach  ONTO  that point and snap back -- AS THEY  RELEASE  SPACE

BACK TO THAT POINT!



Now  all this happens in the distortion of time, so time  is  not

incrementing.  So the SPEED is essentially infinite.



Knapp:

We'll get into the disks in a moment.  But the first time you saw

the  anti-matter reactor in operation or a demonstration  --  you

had a couple of demonstrations -- tell me about that.



Lazar:

The  first time I saw it in operation, we just put -- a friend  I

worked with, Barry -- put the fuel in the reactor, put the lid on

as, as was shown there.



Immediately, a gravitational field developed, and he said,  "Feel

it!"   And  it  felt like you bring two like poles  of  a  magnet

together; you can do that with your hand.  And it was FASCINATING

to do that, impossible, except on something with great mass!  And

obviously this is just a . . .



And it was a REPULSION field.  In fact, we kind of fooled  around

with it for a little while.  And we threw golf balls off it.  And

it was just a really unique thing.



Knapp:

And you had other demonstrations to show you that this is  pretty

wild stuff, right?



Lazar:

Yeah,  they  did.  They were able to channel the field off  in  a

demonstration  that they created an INTENSE  gravitational  area.

And you began to see a small little black disk form, and that was

the bending of the light.



Knapp:

Just like a black hole floating around?



Lazar:

Yeah, well, a black hole is a bad analogy, but yeah, essentially.



Knapp:

And  they  gave  you  some  kind  of  demonstration  about  time,

involving a candle?  Explain how that works.



Lazar:

Yeah,  they took a candle and lit it and put it in the  distorted

gravitational  field,  which distorts time, and the  candle  just

stood   there.    It  didn't  melt  or  burn.   It   was   REALLY

unbelievable!



Knapp:

You had to be floored by seeing all this.



Lazar:

Oh  I was!  That's why I'm kind of laughing about it now  because

it must sound ridiculous to everyone.  But it's just  phenomenal.

I mean this is really alien technology.



Knapp:

About the 115:  We talked a little bit about it in the series  of

reports.   Explain what it is again and why you believe it  could

not be manufactured here.



Lazar:

Okay,  it's a super-heavy element:  On the periodic chart,  which

lists   all  the  elements  found  on  earth  and  that  can   be

synthesized,  I think the highest element we've  synthesized  has

been about Element 106.



Now from 103 -- or actually, anything higher than plutonium up --

the  half-life  begins  to  drop; in  other  words,  the  element

disintegrates.  When you get up to Element 106, it's only  around

for  a very small amount of time.  Even science  today  theorizes

that  up around Element 113 to 116 -- somewhere in there --  they

should  again become stable.  This is in fact true.  That's  what

Element 115 is; it's a stable element.



To  synthesize  it would be impossible.  The  way  we  synthesize

heavy  elements  is,  we take a stable element  like  bismuth  or

something  like  that,  or plutionium, whatever,  put  it  in  an

accelerator,  and  BOMBARD  it with  protons.   Essentially  what

you're  trying  to  do  is plug in protons  into  the  atoms  and

increase  the atomic number.  To do that to the level of  Element

115  would just take an infinite amount of power and an  infinite

amount of time.



Knapp:

What  kinds  of things, what capabilities would a  heavy  element

like this have -- I mean other than producing power?   Obviously,

it can produce a LOT of power, right?



Lazar:

It  in itself is not anti-matter.  It just has a unique  property

of  producing  it.  Any of the other basic properties  it  has  I

really  don't know of.  But using just the  anti-matter-producing

property,  the  potential  for  a  weapon  is  staggering!   It's

absolutely staggering!



Knapp:

Like what?  A pound of it:  what could it do?



Lazar:

Well,  2.2  pounds  is the energy  equivalent  of  47  10-megaton

hydrogen  bombs.   I mean, it's a good bang!  And a  pound  of  a

super-heavy element is maybe the size of a plum or something like

that.



Knapp:

I  guess what I've heard most from people who just don't buy  the

whole  story is that sure, maybe you work at an area called  S-4,

and  maybe it is a secret area, but what you were shown is  stuff

that  we've made.  That we made this 115 -- if it is 115 --  that

we  made  the  flying  disks,  that  we  made  these  anti-matter

reactors,  because  these are advances that you just  don't  know

about.



Lazar:

Hardly.

[Lazar laughs.]



Knapp:

Why not?



Lazar:

Well,  the 115, it's impossible.  And the FACT that the main  job

of  everyone there is to find out how everything's made;  I  mean

that  just  contradicts  everything  right  off  the  bat.    The

materials  are completely alien to us, and just the overall  idea

of  the  project is:  Hey, can we duplicate this  with  materials

that we have here?  So obviously, it was something that was found

or given, for that matter, and we're just trying to duplicate it.



Knapp:

The  115:  Where do you suppose it came from then?  I mean,  what

kind of environment would that kind of element come from?



Lazar:

The  only  place  that 115 could be made would have to  be  in  a

natural situation, somewhere maybe on the fringes of a  supernova

or  somewhere around maybe a binary star system, where there  was

more  mass  in the primordial mix of that system,  where  heavier

elements  would  have had a chance to form, when the  stars  were

collapsing and there were huge amounts of energy being  released.

It's  something  along  these lines; it has to  be  a  naturally-

occurring element.



Knapp:

You  saw  an  anti-matter reactor.   You  saw  gravity-propulsion

systems  in flying disks, flying saucers.  You saw  this  Element

115.   You also read a series of reports that had other  stunning

information.  Can you give an overview of the kind of things that

were in these reports?



Lazar:

The  reason I didn't do that before was, first of all  they  were

just reports.  Everything else I had hands-on experience with.



Now  there  was LOTS of strange information in the  reports,  but

there   again  it's  just  printed  material  and  it  could   be

disinformation.  I don't know.  But certainly, the information  I

did read in the reports about 115, the disks, the grav -- I mean,

that all had material that related to that.



The  reports  went into aliens and even went along the  lines  of

religious --



Knapp:

Well,  we can let our audience know.  I mean we  discussed  this,

when we were putting this series of reports together, whether  to

get  into the alien thing or not, and we decided not to  for  the

time  being.   It's  not like you're hiding  something  from  the

audience  or whatever, it was just a decision we made.   But  you

did  see  reports -- whether they're true or  not  --  Government

reports about aliens.



Lazar:

Yeah.



Knapp:

What were the reports?



Lazar:

There  were photographs of aliens.  There were  autopsy  reports.

There was really a wealth of information.



Knapp:

What did they look like?



Lazar:

The typical "grey."  I hate to say that, like anyone knows what a

typical  grey is.  It's a creature, probably three and a half  to

four feet tall, a large hairless head, black, slanted eyes,  long

arms, very thin-looking.  I don't know how else I would  describe

them.



Knapp:

What  does  an autopsy report look like?  What's included  in  an

autopsy report that you said you read?



Lazar:

The reason I call it an autopsy report is I saw the carcass -- it

was obviously a dead alien -- carcass cut up and it was all  dark

inside  like  it  had an iron base.  The reason  I  say  iron  is

because  it was very dark blood or whatever.  I'm not  a  doctor,

but  it  seemed to be one large organ in the body as  opposed  to

identifiable heart and lungs and that sort of thing, but just one

gooey mess in it.



Knapp:

What  did the report say?  It had pictures; it had to  have  some

words:  "Here's Exhibit A, an alien"?



Lazar:

Essentially  so!  They had weights and densities of  the  organs,

said  there  were no conclusions drawn, but it was just  a  basic

description of what the person who was cutting open the body saw.



Knapp:

Say where they came from?



Lazar:

Yeah,  in one of the reports it said they came from Reticulum  4,

was what it said.



Knapp:

Where is that?  Any idea?



Lazar:

[Lazar laughs.]

Well, I'm told it's a star system in Zeta Reticuli.  Reticulum is

the constellation.



And by "Reticulum 4," they meant the fourth planet out from  that

sun.



In  the  same reports, we were identified --  instead  of  saying

Earth,  we were identified as "Sol 3," meaning the  third  planet

out from our sun.



Knapp:

Now  you've  read a lot of UFO material.  Do  you  find  yourself

mixing what you've read and what you've learned from up there?



Lazar:

No,  that's why I stay away from the UFO researchers  and  things

like  that.  I really don't want to be associated with  that.   I

don't research the stuff.  It's interesting to read, but no,  I'm

not mixing anything that I've read into this stuff.



Knapp:

We were just talking about the UFO field in general, and you feel

a little reluctant to get mixed up in it, although you ARE  right

now.



Lazar:

Unfortunately, yeah.



Knapp:

Why the reluctance?



Lazar:

I  don't  know.  There are so MANY  stories  circulating  around.

Everyone has their own view.  Each UFO researcher says they  have

the  right  story.  And essentially, I don't want  to  side  with

anyone  because I don't know where that information's come  from,

though  they  do all have the basic story:  you know,  there  ARE

alien crafts here; how they got here is, probably aliens  brought

them here, unless we really have a neat setup with the UPS.



There's   just   so  many  different  factions   of   them   [UFO

researchers],  and  they all kind of war between  each  other;  I

really don't want to get associated with them.



Knapp:

Before  you  got  into the program at S-4,  though,  you  had  an

interest  in  UFOs.  It must be hard for people to  swallow  that

here's a guy who has an interest in it and he gets hired into the

program.



Lazar:

Well, there was a very brief time there I had sent out resumes to

several  places,  and I wanted to get back  into  the  scientific

field  again.   Almost simultaneously, I met John Lear  and  read

some  of  his  material.  And initially, I thought  he  was  just

absolutely  crazy.  But apparently, he did have a good source  of

information  because,  as it turns out, some of  the  information

that he had I actually had hands-on experience with.



Knapp:

But  your  regard for UFOs in general:  As a scientist,  did  you

think there was something to it?



Lazar:

Absolutely not.



Knapp:

Absolutely nothing?



Lazar:

No.  I would have stood on that 'til the day I died.



Knapp:

Many  of the people who have been calling are UFO groups  or  UFO

researchers  who have demanded that you talk to them:  We've  got

to talk to this guy; we want to give him a lot more publicity  so

he stays alive; we want him to give us information so that we can

further  check out his background, etc.; we want to protect  him;

we want to help him.



You've resisted.  You've done this program; you've done a  couple

of  reports  with  us; and you've done a radio show  or  two;  in

general,  you've  resisted going into the UFO  circuit.   Why  is

that?



Lazar:

Just like I mentioned before:  I just don't want to be associated

with those guys.



And  how many people are you going to open up your background  to

and let them run rampant through it?  I mean, private detectives,

every UFO group in the world wants to do that!  The idea was  for

me to release the information, essentially to protect myself  and

take  some of the heat off.  And I've done that.  And that's  all

that needs to be done, really.



Knapp:

Certain  UFO researchers claim they've been  getting  information

from  you all along; you've been leaking stuff to them; and  that

they've  read these reports that verify the information.   You've

been working with UFO groups while you were in the program at S-

4?



Lazar:

Not UFO groups.  I did mention a couple of things to some people.

That's all I'm gonna say.



Knapp:

Okay.   In essence, were you breaking your vows that you made  to

the Government?



Lazar:

Yeah.



Knapp:

And  why  did you feel that was necessary?  I mean, you  took  an

oath, didn't you?



Lazar:

Yeah.  But look at the magnitude of what was going on.  I believe

that  some  of the technology -- maybe all of the  technology  --

should be kept secret, until we have a handle on everything.  But

certainly, the overview of what happened just cannot be a  secret

from anyone -- not just the American people, but the rest of  the

world.



Let  out  the basic fact that we have these craft,  at  one  time

aliens  did at least visit and drop off something,  however  they

got  here,  that  there was some contact made, and  then  cut  it

short.  You don't need to release the information on the  gravity

generators,  the weapon potential -- which is enormous -- and  so

on.



Knapp:

What could you do with that technology?  Say you took the  flying

disks, the anti-matter reactors, the gravity generators, gave  it

to  Los  Alamos  or Livermore, let  them  examine  the  potential

abilities  of this stuff.  I mean, how would this affect life  on

earth if this stuff was widely available?



Lazar:

And mass-producable?



Knapp:

Yes.



Lazar:

That's  tough  to say.  I mean, you have a  completely  different

mode of travel.  What happens when you can play with time?   That

gets into a really deep philosophical question there.



Knapp:

But I mean, it would change a lot of stuff, change everything.



Lazar:

Oh yeah!  It would change absolutely everything!



Knapp:

Do you think it will ever come out?



Lazar:

Personally, no.



Knapp:

What  do  you  hope happens, both with  yourself  and  with  this

information?



Lazar:

There's been enough thorns put in their toes to where they do try

and release something.



Knapp:

We'll have to have you come back, Bob.  Thanks for joining us.