307 lines
16 KiB
Plaintext
307 lines
16 KiB
Plaintext
SUBJECT: UFO's - The Mystery That Won't Go Away FILE: UFO2492
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11/22/91
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Larry King Live
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KING: Real or not, whether or not you scoff or shiver - flying
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saucers are a part of our culture. The stories of weird goings-on
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are consistent and often credible, but the proof is always
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seemingly out of reach. Decades of frustration haven't stopped the
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true believers from trading conspiracy and cover-up theories that
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get more and more bizarre. Now why does the UFO's controversy
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persist? What is really going on here? The phenomenon is the
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subject of a new book by cultural historian Keith Thompson. The
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book is titled Angels and Aliens: UFO's and the Mythic
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Imagination. Keith is an independent scholar and researcher. He's
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at our studios here in Washington. In Los Angeles - Don Ecker,
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research director of UFO Magazine. He believes the Government is
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hiding the truth about UFO's.
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Keith, your book is saying, `A plague on all their houses'?
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KEITH THOMPSON, Author, `Angels and Aliens': I don't need to
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put the plague there. I think the plague is there already, and let
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me tell you what I mean by that. I saw that in this subject
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certain things weren't being discussed for quite a while and what-
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It occurs to me that 40 years after this phenomenon emerged as the
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flying saucer phenomenon our interest in it has consistently taught
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us much less with certainty about aliens than about ourselves.
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No one had really, you know, documented how our interest in the
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phenomenon consistently reveals a great deal about what it means to
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be human, what it means to live a human life. But that's generally
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covert and what's generally at the surface is this ongoing
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back-and-forth debate between both sides - both of which sides
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typically are enmeshed in dogmatic one-dimensional viewpoints.
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And first of all, let me say I think there's something
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extraordinary going on in the UFO phenomenon. I think there is a
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fundamental reality to it. What that reality is, I don't know, but
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I suspect it's beyond our current ability to grasp it.
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KING: You sound like-
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Mr. THOMPSON: And therefore both sides - both sides -
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consistently need to rationalize it into some conceptual system
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that works for human beings.
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KING: You sound, Keith, like an agnostic in a world of
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believers and atheists.
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Mr. THOMPSON: I have found myself in that position. You know,
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one of the things that I have come to realize is that if ufology -
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the research field of UFO's - can be likened to a dysfunctional
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family in the sense of this constant back-and-forth fighting, I was
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entrusted to be the sort of secret-keeper of the dysfunctional
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family, because everyone I talked to in my interviews on both sides
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said, `You know, I can tell you about him. Now, you can't quote me
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because this is libelous but, you know, he's working for the
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Government.' Or, `He's in cahoots with this,' or `He's crazy.
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Now, you can't quote me.' And I was consistently invited to share
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this secret - the various kinds of secrets - around what is, you
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know, really a kind of paranoia on both sides.
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KING: All right, are you saying, then, anyone who says
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definitively `There are flying saucers; I went up with them; I met
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the little people; the Government's hiding it' or anyone who says
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definitively `There's nothing out there; forget it; nothing's in
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the universe; we are it' - both of them have put themselves in
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corners, can't prove either side of that corner, and they're kind
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of a little whacked?
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Mr. THOMPSON: Well, that's what I've tried to document in the
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book, and the key word is `definitive.' Any viewpoint that offers
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itself as the definitive viewpoint has been offered many, many
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times before. For example, one particular side says, `We're just
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about ready to blow the lid on the Government coverup.' That was
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first stated in the late 1940's and it continues to be stated. It
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may be true this time, but it's been stated many times before.
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KING: Like `The world's going to end a week from Tuesday.'
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Mr. THOMPSON: I think it's Wednesday.
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KING: OK. Don, how would you defend what Keith has said so
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far, as research director of UFO Magazine?
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DON ECKER, `UFO' Magazine: Well, Larry, Keith is in many
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respects absolutely correct. This is a house divided. It has been
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for quite a while. We have to break the ufologists down into
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several groups. Unfortunately, I hate to say this, but we have one
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group that are two or three taco's shy of a full combination plate.
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We have another group that are, apparently, aliens. And what I
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mean by that, they can manipulate time and space - the space inside
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somebody's wallet and the time that it takes them to empty it. And
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then we have a bedrock of serious UFO researchers - people that are
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actually trying to get to the truth - and that's what we do in UFO
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Magazine.
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We take a look at all sides and we try to find out exactly what
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is going on. We don't doubt for one minute that there is a
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phenomenon and we don't doubt that the most workable hypothesis is
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the one of possible extraterrestrial visitation, but we're not
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locked into that. There is a mystery here. What we're saying is
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it deserves to be studied. It deserves to be looked at. And it's
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apparent - and we have documented proof - that the Government is
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hiding something.
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KING: All right, now, your documented proof, if we could be
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brief, is what?
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Mr. ECKER: OK, for example, this past spring I was in Tucson,
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Arizona, at an international UFO conference. During the course of
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this conference I had a chance to meet Dr. Marina Popovitch, who is
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a Soviet researcher over here in the United States. At that period
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of time I had a chance to interview her over two days' period and
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the very last day that I was speaking to her I asked her about a
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rumor that I had heard in a book that I had read by another
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researcher back on the East Coast by the name of Zachariah Sitchin.
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The book is Genesis Revisited, and he intimated in this book that,
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during the course of a Soviet space mission back in 1988-1989,
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something passingly strange happened in the orbit of Mars with one
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of these Soviet probes, and I asked Dr. Popovitch if there was any
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truth to it.
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Well, I got a fantastic story out of this that came all the way
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from the halls of the Soviet politburo and, also, the Soviet space
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center and Glavcosmos. Now, I asked her what exactly were the
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facts that she brought back. Well, according to Sitchin, number
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one, the Soviets had received several photographs from this space
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probe-
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KING: I'm going to ask you to be as brief as possible. Are you
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saying that the Government knows about- our Government knows about
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these photographs? We've exchanged them with the Soviets?
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Mr. ECKER: Well, I have- I brought one with me, Larry. I
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brought a photograph that has never been released outside of the
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Soviet Union that was given to Dr. Popovitch, and I have it here.
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What happened was this probe-
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KING: Can we see it?
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Mr. ECKER: Yes, I'm going to hold it up right now.
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KING: All right.
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Mr. ECKER: {Holds up photograph} This probe, all right, was in
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the orbit of Mars and it was to perform several scientific
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experiments.
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Is this better?
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KING: Yes.
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Mr. ECKER: OK. It was to perform several scientific
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experiments- and, excuse me, I have it upside-down.
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KING: All right- Don't help me either way, by the way, but go
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ahead. {laughs}
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Mr. ECKER: {laughs} Right. OK. {Indicates printing at top of
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photograph} This is, incidentally, Russian writing up here. What
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it says is `FOBOS II' and then the number- the computer numbers.
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But what this showed was that there was a very large metallic
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cylindrical object-
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KING: Right.
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Mr. ECKER: -that this probe photographed, which you can see
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right underneath the moon-
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KING: Couldn't that be debris of some kind or something
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floating in space?
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Mr. ECKER: Well, yes, it could be, except for the size. The
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size computed out to 25 kilometers long. That's 15-1/2 miles.
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KING: OK, now, when you see something like this, Keith, how do
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you react?
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Mr. THOMPSON: Well, I react by- Personally, I have great
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respect for Don and his magazine. He's one of the better- He's
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thoughtful and intelligent and so forth.
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KING: Obviously.
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Mr. THOMPSON: Now, let me say, though, that the photograph- And
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it may be exactly what he's saying, but the point is, year after
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year, decade after decade, photographs have been presented which
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fall between- fall in a category which are not accepted by the
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scientific establishment. They may be real but, nevertheless- So
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the photos become part of a modern mythology.
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Mr. ECKER: Well, he's absolutely correct, Larry. He is
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correct. There have been many, many photographs over the years
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that have proved to be fraudulent. However, what we have to look
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at are what facts would support this? What did the Soviets,
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themselves, say? Now, according to Dr. Popovitch, when she spoke
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to her contacts not only in Glavcosmos but also within the Soviet
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politburo - and she's a very highly-placed person in Soviet society
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- it came out that Premier Gorbachev and President Bush held this
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at the very top of their agenda in their meeting at Yalta- or, I'm
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sorry, Malta. Yalta was a few years ago. The story was so-
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KING: In other words, they've discussed this photograph?
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Mr. ECKER: Yes, that's correct.
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KING: You know that for a fact?
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Mr. ECKER: This is what I was told by Dr. Popovitch from her
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contacts.
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KING: OK. All right, let me get a break and then I want to
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come right back and pick up on this with Keith Thompson - his book
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is Angels and Aliens - and Don Ecker, research director of UFO
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Magazine. This is Larry King Live - Richard Simmons on Monday.
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Don't go away.
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{Commercial break}
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KING: Our guests are Keith Thompson, author of Angels and
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Aliens, and Don Ecker of UFO Magazine. We're going to go to your
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calls. We have limited time tonight, unfortunately. We want to do
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more on this.
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I would say this, Don. What's your theory on why the
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Government would cover up?
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Mr. ECKER: Well, there are any number of theories, Larry.
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KING: Give me one. Give me one that you like.
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Mr. ECKER: OK, something about the social fabric tearing apart.
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I think they're afraid of it if, in fact-
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KING: Every administration believes that? Every NATO person,
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every person who knows about this shares that belief?
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Mr. ECKER: It's hard to say whether they all know it or believe
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it. I think, as time has gone on, the coverup, for whatever reason
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it was initially begun- and incidentally, this entire era began the
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time the National Security Act was signed into law.
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KING: Uh-huh. So you buy the coverup theory?
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Mr. ECKER: Oh, without a doubt. Without a doubt.
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KING: OK. Pensacola, Florida, hello.
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5th CALLER: {Pensacola, Florida} Yes, I would like to know why
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so many UFO investigators believe the Walters UFO pictures of Gulf
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Breeze, Florida, are real, when it's been shown so many times in
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the media that they could have been faked through double exposure?
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KING: Keith?
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Mr. THOMPSON: Well, actually, many years now after those photos
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have been examined the UFO community is coming around to recognize
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the likelihood - very strong likelihood - that those photographs
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are faked. And why did it take such a long time? There's a
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fundamental- you know, a fundamental love and fundamental being
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pulled into this over and over and over in the UFO field that
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somehow is the need to believe.
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KING: Medford, Oregon, hello.
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6th CALLER: {Medford, Oregon} Howdy. I would like to know why,
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with the millions and millions of self-focus videocameras and .35
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millimeter cameras, all of the so-called photographic evidence of
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UFO's is always out of focus, blurry, and pretty poor quality?
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Mr. ECKER: Well, Larry, I'd like to answer that.
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KING: Sure.
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Mr. ECKER: That's not necessarily true. As a matter of fact,
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one of the people that UFO Magazine has known for quite a while,
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out in Yucaipa, California - the UFO video clearinghouse - has
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thousands of tapes. Many of them have come in from people with
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camcorders and there's absolutely- In many of these cases these are
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very clear. Now, as to whether they're a true UFO, of course, is
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something else. As we all know, many times people have mistaken
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things.
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KING: Yes.
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Mr. ECKER: But there is still that 10 percent.
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KING: Do we know why, Keith, they always land in `Kyacook,
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Iowa,' and never Washington?
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Mr. THOMPSON: Well, they do land in sparsely-populated-
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KING: Outside of `Kyacook.'
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Mr. THOMPSON: That's right and, theoretically, always on the
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back porch of someone named `Billy-Bob.'
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KING: That's right.
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Mr. THOMPSON: That's the popular mythology. And in fact, they
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do avoid- They do seem to favor sparsely-populated areas.
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KING: And guys named `Billy-Bob.' They like them.
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Mr. THOMPSON: That's right. {laughs}
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KING: Ouwerkerk, Holland, hello.
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6th CALLER: {Ouwerkerk, The Netherlands} Hello, Ouwerkerk. I
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hope to see you in Wetten, Dass with Thomas Gottschalk.
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KING: Yes, he's invited me. I've agreed to go on. What's your
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question?
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6th CALLER: OK. My question is, what do you think about the
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crop circles in Europe?
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Mr. THOMPSON: Well, I think they're extraordinary-
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KING: Oh, that turned out to be false, right?
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Mr. THOMPSON: Well, there were a couple of guys who confessed
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to doing-
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KING: Yes.
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Mr. THOMPSON: -to committing a couple of hoaxes.
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Mr. ECKER: Well, Larry, as a matter of fact, in our last issue
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we had an updated news story. As a matter of fact, we sent a press
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release to CNN, to your show, and to a number of other press
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agencies, explaining how this was absolutely and patently
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impossible that these two guys had performed all these crop
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circles, and we've never heard back from anyone. For example, last
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year-
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KING: Do you agree with that, Keith?
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Mr. THOMPSON: That's what consistently happens in the field,
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which is that when a couple of guys come forward and admit to
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faking a couple of anything, or are exposed as faking, then the
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debunkers can use that to say, `Well, the whole thing is probably
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fake, the whole thing-'
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Mr. ECKER: Absolutely. Absolutely correct.
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Mr. THOMPSON: -but in fact, there are too many that simply
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can't be explained.
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KING: What do you gut-believe?
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Mr. THOMPSON: My gut-belief is that we're dealing with
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something that is much larger than we are and that every attempt
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will grab- you know, every attempt to explain it will grab some
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part of it but, in the long run, every theory we have about it will
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reveal more about us in the long run.
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KING: Back with more of Don Ecker and Keith Thompson on Larry
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King Live. Don't go away.
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{Commercial break}
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KING: We're running close on time. Keith, why do you believe
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the Government may know this and not reveal it?
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Mr. THOMPSON: I think what the Government may well not be
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revealing is they don't have the answers, either. If this is a
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phenomenon that can transcend time and space, if aliens can pull
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people out of their beds and out of their cars with impunity, the
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very idea that we think the Government is still monolithic and must
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have all the answers- If they don't have the answers, they're not
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going to admit it.
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KING: Don, is this the decade we learn for sure?
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Mr. ECKER: That's hard to say, Larry. But, you know, we have
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to take very quickly a real close look at this. Five hundred years
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ago next year, Columbus left Europe and found a new world. It took
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him months to get over here. Today, we do it in hours. Why? Do
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we have faster sailing ships? No, we have different technology.
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KING: Yes.
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Mr. ECKER: And in our recent humanity here on this planet - and
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we've had civilization for roughly 10,000 years - we've only had
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atomic power for 46.
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KING: Yes.
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Mr. ECKER: Now, who knows what we're going to have in the next
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few? I think more is going to come to light, yes.
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KING: Thanks a lot. Don Ecker is the research director of UFO
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Magazine; Keith Thompson, the author of Angels and Aliens.
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>>> EOF <<<
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**********************************************
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* THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo *
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