335 lines
13 KiB
Plaintext
335 lines
13 KiB
Plaintext
Date: 27-Apr-89 22:22
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From: John Windmueller
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To: Ron Sparks
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Subj: Re: God--good or evil?
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I'm not to fond of organized religion as a
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whole. Frankly, I think God is a man-made security blanket. Further, if a
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God did really exist, I'd have to hate him for the suffering he has allowed
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to thousands of people who placed their complete faith in him.
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My comment was ment in - s a r c a s m -.
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Sorry, but I will not be held a sponsor of God. If "he" makes your life
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better, more power to you. Frankly, I have enough faith in the human
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spirit to believe that "man will not only endure: but prevail".. Faulkner
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.. John Windmueller
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--- QuickBBS v2.03
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* Origin: FLAME363 - It's quite an echo! -- Gallifrey - (1:363/17)
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Date: 28-Apr-89 11:07
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From: Ron Sparks
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To: John Windmueller
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Subj: Re: God--good or evil?
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.
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I don't know about God, but religion is a farce. Religion is a man-made
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security blanket, changing ever to meet societies needs. If there ever was
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a "true" religion that worshiped a "true" diety, it is now perverted beyond
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all recognition.
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.
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My views, then, are very similar to your own. I apologize if you were under
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the impression that I disagreed with you. If you would have read my message
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a little more carefully, you would have seen this.
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.
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--- QuickBBS v2.03
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* Origin: West Orange Wildcat BBS, Winter Garden Fla.(407) 877-8324
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Date: 29-Apr-89 02:03
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From: Mark Woodruff
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To: Ron Sparks
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Subj: Re: God--good or evil?
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>I don't know about God, but religion is a farce. Religion is
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>a man-made security blanket, changing ever to meet societies
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>needs. If there ever was a "true" religion that worshiped a
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>"true" diety, it is now perverted beyond all recognition.
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Bullshit. Religion is a way of transcending man's fears, doubts, and
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guilts. If you deny the transcendent, you deny your own ability to achieve
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greatness.
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mark
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---
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* Origin: MaMaB--the Machine in Mark's Bedroom *HST* (Opus 1:363/9)
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Message #1305 "FLAME ECHO"
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Date: 29-Apr-89 02:58
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From: Rick Harrison
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To: Mark Woodruff
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Subj: God--good or evil
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> Bullshit. Religion is a way of transcending
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> man's fears, doubts, and guilts.
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> If you deny the transcendent, you deny your
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> own ability to achieve greatness.
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.
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Tell it to the victims of the Crusades and the Inquisitions. Tell it to
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the people throughout mediaeval Europe and the old United States who were
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hung in irons, locked in dungeons, stretched on racks, burned at the
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stake, hanged, and impaled for daring to be heretics, or for having
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epilepsy or being social outcasts, and therefore labelled "witches." Tell
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it to the victims of human sacrifice. Religion has been a blot of shame on
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the course of human history, the velvet glove covering the iron fist of
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authority and coercion. To be an apologist for religion is to be a traitor
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to the causes of logic and liberty.
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.
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"When the priests and preachers are alone among their own kind, away from
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the eyes and ears of the public, they could burst with laughter at the
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nonsense they preach in return for ready cash." - Johann Most
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---
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* Origin: Midas Touch: First step on a new journey! (407) 648-1133
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Message #1437 "FLAME ECHO"
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Date: 29-Apr-89 23:14
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From: Rick Harrison
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To: Ron Sparks
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Subj: Re: God--good or evil?
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.
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Tell me, Ron, what is your "soul" or "essence"? Is there any reason
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to believe it's anything other than a bunch of electrical impulses
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racing between synapses in your brain, and if not, how can you imagine
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that your "soul" will continue to exist after your brain stops
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functioning? Can a computer program continue to run after the computer
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has been turned off and dismantled?
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.
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-> However, the moral rights we adhere to often DO
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-> stem from metaphysical backgrounds.
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Did you mean "moral codes" or "moral standards"? What do you mean by
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"metaphysical backgrounds" - do you mean morals are handed down from
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supernatural entities, or promulgated by metaphysicians? A little less
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ambiguity would be helpful. Focus, please, you simplist.
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---
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* Origin: Midas Touch: First step on a new journey! (407) 648-1133
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Message #1494 "FLAME ECHO"
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Date: 30-Apr-89 12:21
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From: Ron Sparks
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To: Rick Harrison
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Subj: Re: God--good or evil?
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I reason that the "essense" is more than electrical impulses because of what
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French Philosopher Descarte mentioned. The whole is greater than the sum of
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the parts. We could throw all the elements that make a human together and
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it would still be lifeless. It is mising something vital--some essense.
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(allow a pretty bad analogy please)
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.
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I'm the simplist, yet I must focus for YOU. Hmmm. Sounds like youre the
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simplist.
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.
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Anyway, perhaps "metaphysical background" was an inapropriate term. I
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should have said, "religious background" Most of our moral standards and
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codes come from our religion. (either that, or the society PUTS their
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already existant moral coded into their religion)
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.
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--- QuickBBS v2.03
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* Origin: West Orange Wildcat BBS, Winter Garden Fla.(407) 877-8324
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Message #1558 "FLAME ECHO" (RECEIVED)
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Date: 30-Apr-89 21:17
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From: Mark Woodruff
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To: Rick Harrison
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Subj: Re: God--good or evil
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>> Bullshit. Religion is a way of transcending
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>> man's fears, doubts, and guilts.
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>> If you deny the transcendent, you deny your
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>> own ability to achieve greatness.
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>.
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>Tell it to the victims of the Crusades and the Inquisitions.
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>Tell it to the [this goes on for some time]
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>To be an apologist for religion is to be a traitor
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>to the causes of logic and liberty.
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Oh, so we're a judge now, are we?
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Religion has been used for many things, but that does not change what
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religion *is* anymore than the use of machine guns by the SS to kill Jews
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changes the nature of a gun as a projectile firing device.
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mark
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---
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* Origin: MaMaB--the Machine in Mark's Bedroom *HST* (Opus 1:363/9)
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Message #1672 "FLAME ECHO"
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Date: 02-May-89 01:39
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From: Rick Harrison
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To: Mark Woodruff
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Subj: Re: God--good or evil
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> Religion has been used for many things, but that does
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> not change what religion *IS*
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For 1900 years, Christ's followers have been insisting that their actions
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shouldn't be used as evidence against Christianity. Come on, Mark, how could
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anyone who has studied this echo, imagine that religion has a helpful,
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calming, or transcendental effect?
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--- ConfMail V4.00
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* Origin: Big Blue BBS (1:363/3)
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Message #1709 "FLAME ECHO"
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Date: 02-May-89 07:28
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From: Rick Harrison
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To: Mark Woodruff
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Subj: my abyss or yours?
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> Kierkegaard believed that man's senses and reasons were limited
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> and thus could only take him to an abyss, the depths
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> of which his reason could not penetrate. Only through a
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> "leap of faith" could man pass over the abyss and into
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> a meaningful world.
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With apologies to Frank Salerno's dictionary...
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Regrettably, this leads us into a circular (or at best, helical) argument.
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Sensory data and logical reasoning certainly have their limitations, as you
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can see by observing any hedonist or logician. However, taking a "leap of
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faith" is an identical form of intellectual and spiritual self-hypnosis,
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i.e. gestaltic hypnopomposity.
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Since there are no rational/factual criteria for evaluating the truth of
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the various religions, they must all be considered equally valid and true,
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even though most of them contradict each other and, in most instances, each
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religion claims to be the only true way to Heaven/ Asgard/ Valhala/ Nirvana/
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you name it. Those who take a leap of faith do not "pass over the abyss and
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into a meaningful world," but rather into another abyss of distorted,
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disagreeable deities and demigods, where any absurd claim made by a prophet
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or medium must be accepted as valid because all have entered into an
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agreement not to apply rational criteria to each other's beliefs and
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practices. The New Age movement is a vivid illustration of this,
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with some of its members getting advice from the swinging motions of quartz
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crystals dangling on the ends of strings, and others paying hundreds of
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dollars to see actresses pretend to be possessed by the spirits of dead
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humans.
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Also, I think the atrocities committed by religionists, of which I cited
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examples in an earlier message, are not to be dismissed or ignored as you
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would wish. If religion frequently causes people to persecute and despise
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others, as it clearly does, then its alleged beneficence is clearly
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chimerical. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch-burners and Jew-burners
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of history, the Irish Republican Army, the Israeli Zionists, the Muslims who
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are presently frothing with blood-lust regarding the author Salman Rushdie,
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the Christ-crazed zealots who want to ban books, movies and anything else
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which seems different from them -- all these are examples of what the "leap
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of faith" generally does to people, and it hardly seems desirable; indeed,
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it's one of the biggest threats to the continued existence of our species.
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(This is not to say that a species, like a bureaucracy, has no purpose other
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than self- perpetuation.)
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When offered a choice between Abyss Number One, the pit of logic and
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sensory data, or Abyss Number Two, the leap of faith into religion and
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supernaturalism, I opt for None of the Above -- and so do most practical
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people, who have no interest in such matters, and are interested instead in
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what's for dinner tonight and is there enough beer in the refrigerator to
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last through the telecast of the ballgame. These denizens of the demotic
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plane are a distinct denegation of dependence on dieties, desires, and
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dialectics; they're also a delightful demonstration that Buddha wasn't just
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whistlin' Dixie when he said that speculations about the afterlife and
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supernatural world are irresolvable and counter-productive to human progress
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and happiness.
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--- ConfMail V4.00
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* Origin: Big Blue BBS (1:363/3)
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Date: 03-May-89 12:27
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From: Mark Woodruff
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To: Rick Harrison
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Subj: Re: my abyss or yours?
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> Since there are no rational/factual criteria for evaluating
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>the truth of the various religions, they must all be considered
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>equally valid and true, even though most of them contradict each
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>other and, in most instances, each religion claims to be the
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>only true way to Heaven/ Asgard/ Valhala/ Nirvana/ you name it.
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Religion is neither true nor untrue. It transcends reason and therefore
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cannot be judged by reason.
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Your statements remind me of the description of a cube by the residents of
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Flatland.
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mark
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We are all that you see and more...
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---
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* Origin: MaMaB--the Machine in Mark's Bedroom *HST* (Opus 1:363/9)
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Message #7756 "Flame363 Echo"
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Date: 03-May-89 12:32
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From: Mark Woodruff
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To: Rick Harrison
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Subj: Re: blow it out your abyss
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> Also, I think the atrocities committed by religionists, of
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>which I cited examples in an earlier message, are not to be dismissed
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>or ignored as you would wish. If religion frequently causes people
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>to persecute and despise others, as it clearly does, then its
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>alleged beneficence is clearly chimerical.
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I don't ignore them, but their attribution to religion doesn't affect my
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faith in any way.
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> When offered a choice between Abyss Number One, the pit of
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>logic and sensory data, or Abyss Number Two, the leap of faith
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>into religion and supernaturalism, I opt for None of the Above
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If you accept the limits of your senses you accept being on one side of the
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abyss. If you exalt imagination, you fly above both.
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mark
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---
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* Origin: MaMaB--the Machine in Mark's Bedroom *HST* (Opus 1:363/9)
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EOF
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