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From htoaster@yabbs Thu Jul 21 17:06:59 1994
From: htoaster@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: <no title>
Date: Thu Jul 21 17:06:59 1994
From htoaster@yabbs Thu Jul 21 17:13:44 1994
From: htoaster@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: yanb (yet another new base)
Date: Thu Jul 21 17:13:44 1994
Discuss anything of a religous nature here, or anything politcal with
religious overtones (such as abortion)...
alex
From Pele@yabbs Thu Jul 21 19:05:24 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: THIS IS GREAT!!!
Date: Thu Jul 21 19:05:24 1994
Ok...I'm a Christian and ever since a run-in with another user I've always
felt uneasy about discussing my views so this is going to be great 'cause
if you don't like religious talk you wouldn't be here!!!! Cool!!!
I'm a scientist/christian. If anyone thinx there is a paradox in that or
doesn't understand how, ask. I'd love to talk about the parallelism of
the study of science and the study of God. (I believe that the purpose of
science is to understand God)
Cool!!!
This is Cool!!!!!
-Pele_
From Cat@yabbs Thu Jul 21 21:36:20 1994
From: Cat@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: THIS IS GREAT!!!
Date: Thu Jul 21 21:36:20 1994
hmm religion base...well i have to say something...i am quite the cynic
in regards to religion, having been dragged to church against my will for
years and years...i always wanted to just not go and be a pagan but i
lack the courage to tell my parents so and therefor i am a sell out and
it's all my fault i know i know ah well :) i think religion is a nice
idea so long as it's not forced on others. i wonder tho...many religions
say they're _the_ religion and everyone else is wrong..i know they do at
my church anyway..well how do the christians know that god is god and
buddah isn't? and vice versa. i very much believe in god, i am just very
anti-church
-tammie
From Zbadba@yabbs Thu Jul 21 22:19:30 1994
From: Zbadba@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Religion, natch
Date: Thu Jul 21 22:19:30 1994
I am without religion. This is not to say I see anything inherently wrong
with religion (not believing in absolutes anyhows). I think it is
fascinating to study religion in its forms (its origins, its evolution). I
simply lack the prerequisite of faith.
Lacking faith, ipso facto, I cannot have religion.
From dmonger@yabbs Thu Jul 21 23:27:25 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: Zbadba@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion, natch
Date: Thu Jul 21 23:27:25 1994
well, i view all religions as what (IMO) they are: mythology.
i have my own view of god, one that others probably don't share. I've never
been able to believe in any religion that can claim that none of the others
are correct, which is unfortunately a feature of all the ones i know of.
-peter
From Natalie@yabbs Fri Jul 22 00:15:19 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: THIS IS GREAT!!!
Date: Fri Jul 22 00:15:19 1994
hmmm...my best friend just sent me some email kind of about this...as some
of you may know, one of the things i'm studying at school is
religion...my area is the gnostics...but jenn said that my interest in
religion goes beyond the scholarly and into me looking for Something. she
told me that some problems that i've been having lately are due to my
thinking that i've violated this as yet unknown Something. i dunno.
i wasn't brought up religious, and i've often wondered if part of the
empty space in me is this lack of faith...i can't reject religion because
i've never really experienced it...
natalie
From Death@yabbs Fri Jul 22 04:01:39 1994
From: Death@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: THIS IS GREAT!!!
Date: Fri Jul 22 04:01:39 1994
I believe in a god, although I don't think that MY god is really
compatible with any of the gods of the world's many religions, but then
again, who knows? Anyways... I practice Judaism by choice. Many of it's
traditions fascinate me, and I agree with it's value system in most
(though not all) cases. For instance, the system of Kashrut (what should
and shouldn't be eaten, to put it simply) is a much healthier way to eat
than just eating anything. Also, one of it's tenets is that when an animak
er animal, is killed for food, it's death must be painless. I don't eat
much meat, but what meat I DO eat is kosher because I don't thnk ANY
animal, be it cow, chicken, dolphin, or human, deserves to suffer undue
pain for another's benefit. Although it can be argued that killing it is
just as painful, but then there's another Jewish belief that I hope is
true: the belief in an afterlife. Well, I'm starting to ramble a bit...
So I'll let someone else speak now :> This has been my faithful
contribution:
--Les
From Deluge@yabbs Fri Jul 22 07:21:42 1994
From: Deluge@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: THIS IS GREAT!!!
Date: Fri Jul 22 07:21:42 1994
I have, and always will believe that religion is meaningless. All that I
care is that is :I believe in God, and always will. I really don't think
people need to be Catholic, Protestant, Presbyterian, Baptist or whatever
to have faith in him. I have no religion, so does that mean I don't
believe in God and that I'm a sinner? Nope.
From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 12:14:20 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: Your question
Date: Fri Jul 22 12:14:20 1994
Ok...How do we know that God is God and not Buddah? It has to do with the
uniqueness of our situation.
First of all, What separates christians from other religions is not God
but Jesus, his son. You see...I am resigned to agree that Jehovah, Allah,
Budda (Budda was a man, not a God), Brahma and the rest of them are the
same. That is, the names are different and perhaps the doctrine has
minute differences but the overall effect of God remains the same. In
other words, it's not what you call him it that you believe in him in some
way or anther. It'
s not a competition to see who has the best religion.
Now...what separates christians. I can only tell you what mad me become a
christian as opposed to a Muslim or something like that. It has to do
with faith. I grew up in a Christian home but I never really believed on
God or anything. I understand where you are coming from because I was
feeling the same way. At some point, however (I don't know the date) I
started to listen and I found some wonderful things out.
-No matter what you do...it's forgiveable, even if you don't forgive
yourself.
-Jesun died and was resurrected. No other religion in the world has that
claim. That also reasures us that we too will die and be resurrected.
It is that hope, and that faith that we too will live forever with God
that makes Christians (at least this one) want to praise his name all day
long! Thanx for asking...I needed to tell someone so that I could tell
myself (I often find myself doubting my beliefs).
NO matter what you believe...believe in God. He loves you like a father
loves a child....only infinitely more.
God Bless you!
-Pele-
From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 12:17:36 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: dmonger@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion, natch
Date: Fri Jul 22 12:17:36 1994
There is much more to religion than mythology. There are similarities in
its overall structure but there is one thing that separates them. The
only religion today that still claims the mythological-like existence of
many gods is Hinudism. All others today (at least the major ones) believe
that there is one omnipotent being that created the universe and someday
may have a hand in it's end.
From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 12:24:12 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Deluge@yabbs
Subject: re: THIS IS GREAT!!!
Date: Fri Jul 22 12:24:12 1994
I agree, you don't need religion to believe in god. YOu just need God to
believe in religion. Releigion is really nothing more that aq giant
Social club where people who have the same beliefs get together and
worship the person (God) you believe in. It doesn't matter if it's
Catholic, or Protestant church or if it's in a Jewish Synagoge (Sp?) or in
the holy land of Mecca, the point is that if you truly believe then there
is a feeling that overcomes you when you are with people of similar
beliefs that cannot be described. A feeling of euphoria that no drug
could ever porvide. I call it the Holy Spirit you can call it what you
will but it makes me feel good and it's the kind of adddiction I can
geted to having. :)
-Pele-
From dmonger@yabbs Fri Jul 22 13:56:26 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion, natch
Date: Fri Jul 22 13:56:26 1994
In message re: Religion, natch, Pele said:
> There is much more to religion than mythology. There are similarities in
> its overall structure but there is one thing that separates them. The
> only religion today that still claims the mythological-like existence of
> many gods is Hinudism.
Mythology has little to do with multiple gods. It is the study of myths and
legends, stories which may or may not have had a factual basis. When you
remove the faith aspect, all religions that i have found are based on mythology as much as, say the Greek and Roman religions which the word seems to bring to
most people's minds.
Mythology (last time i checked) has nothing to do with multiple gods. It is
the study of myths and legends, stories which may or may not have had a
factual basis, which usually describe an event (creations myths are a part of
most religions) or explain how or why something (of which Just So Stories
would be a good example if they hadn't been written so recently :).
Religion is the belief in one (or more) supreme beings. Most of the religions
that i have seen (and there may be some that i'm not correct about this on)
are based on myths and legends once you remove the faith (not Faith) aspect
from them. Turning water into wine, loves into fishes (or fishes into loves
or iguana into kiwi fruit or whatever the damn miracle was :) are good
examples of this IMO.
Not that i'm saying you can't be right. I agree that you can't describe
something as a myth and still have a deeply set belief that its absolutely
true ... the two kind of contradict each other. For all i know, i could be
streaming straight to hell with this post.
I was reading the bible last year for the hell of it, and i was really struck
by the enormous similarities between that and some of stories i've read before
(mostly Greek myths and American Indian myths). The biggest difference IMO is
that christianity has only one god, and is still practiced a bit more today
than the Greek version :)
-peter
From Cat@yabbs Fri Jul 22 14:43:30 1994
From: Cat@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Your question
Date: Fri Jul 22 14:43:30 1994
In message Your question, Pele said:
> -Jesun died and was resurrected. No other religion in the world has that
> claim. That also reasures us that we too will die and be resurrected.
the phonix also dies and is resurrected.
> NO matter what you believe...believe in God. He loves you like a father
> loves a child....only infinitely more.
oh i said i believe in god, just not church. and my dog loves me more
thatn my father does, so that was a bad example to chose :) my father
treats me like a child tho :)
> God Bless you!
geez, are you sure you don't go to my church? :)
-tammie
From Death@yabbs Fri Jul 22 15:12:52 1994
From: Death@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Your question
Date: Fri Jul 22 15:12:52 1994
As to there not being ressurections in other religions, that's not even
close to true... In fact, most of the world's major religions have smor
form of ressurection in them somewhere. If you want examples, I can give
you some from about 10 different religions...
--Les
(he for whom theology and mythology are a large hobby :)
From Natalie@yabbs Fri Jul 22 19:20:37 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Your question
Date: Fri Jul 22 19:20:37 1994
what i think is cool about islam is thatthey accept jesus as one of their
prophets. not many ppl know that. islam, in theory (not practice) is a
relatively peaceful religion. of course, christianity is supposed to be
that way too...
natalie
From hawke@yabbs Fri Jul 22 19:21:46 1994
From: hawke@yabbs
To: pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Your question
Date: Fri Jul 22 19:21:46 1994
gak its that kind of narrow mindednes that caused the crusades and the
inquisitions or however the hell you spell and its that kind of narrow
mindedness that turns me off to organized religeon.
someone who is still searching fro something to believe in
hawke
From Steyr@yabbs Fri Jul 22 21:24:16 1994
From: Steyr@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: My views.
Date: Fri Jul 22 21:24:16 1994
Let me start my saying that I do not believe in a God or gods.
I agree that religions (I'll refer mostly to Christianity) are
based around myths and legends. BUT ...
It's a fact that many myths have some (perhaps only very slight)
basis in real occurrences. Although I don't believe in God, I
do feel that SOMETHING happened during the period in which Jesus
supposedly lived. There is also too much evidence that has been
uncovered which supports many of the stories in the bible (and
other religious doctrines/contemporary texts) to say that it is
ALL a load of crap.
I feel that "god(s)" are created by man to fill gaps in what they
don't understand, and that perhaps there were things which happened
2000 years ago which, because people did not understand then, got
put down as the work of God.
I certainly don't believe in extreme religious concepts such as
"God created man from the dust of the Earth", but I also think that
statements such as that may have undergone much misinterpretation
a) over time, and b) during the translation from Hebrew to English.
So basically ... although I don't believe in God, I do believe that
religious doctrines may have some basis in fact. To me, religion
will be filed away as another mysterious X File. What a pity Fox
and Dana don't have access to time travel.
Anyway ... that's my opinion on things.
Feel free to crucify me for it. I may have a slow turn-around (maybe
3 days), but I'm sure I'll rise again to respond. :) :)
,,,
(o o)
+----oOO--(_)--OOo----+ +--------------------------+
| \ \ |
| Barry Noble / / Melbourne, Australia. |
| (Steyr) \ \ Steyr@GPO.swin.edu.au |
| / / |
+---------------------+ +--------------------------+
From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 22:23:58 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: dmonger@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion, natch
Date: Fri Jul 22 22:23:58 1994
I'll give you that there are a great number of similarities between the
stories of the Bible and the myths of ancient greece and rome. However
you have to look at something else. The Bible has many different aspects
to it.
I'll be the first to admit that there is a great deal of poetry to
the Bible and it is probably full of symbolism and that it has a very
mythological nature to it's Old Testament stories. However, if you read
the rest of the Bible, like the stories of Jesus and his dicipiles you'll
find them quite unique. In fact if you were to read the Koraan and the
other religious books of different religions, you'll find that they all
have things that separate them very much from myths.
All in all...however, being that I can only speak on Christianity, I find
that the purpose of having faith is so that you can be faced with these
doubts and these questions and not faulter. It is very easy to give up
and say that there is no God or that religion is bogus when you see what
happens around you every day but I personally find it much easier to
accept that a supreme being is responsible for the creation of the earth
and the people and animals that are on it (the big bang can't be explained
resonably to me without attributing it's occurence to God).
Religion has it's faults, I admit, and I can understand why there are
those who don't want to believe in a God. In the end, however, I believe
that we all need to believe in a God. God gives our lives meaning. The
concept of a heaven and a hell gives us something to aspire towards and it
comforts us in our times of pain and suffering. Religion brings people
together in love and fellowship and that is something that should be
encouraged and not put down
My $0.02
-Pele-
From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 22:27:18 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: Your question
Date: Fri Jul 22 22:27:18 1994
I don't mean to turn you off...I'm sorry if I do. I'm just hoping that
you don't forget that God is there for you.
On the subject of church. People need a place where they are always
welcome and no matter what...there is always a church (or synagoge or
temple or something) out there for you wehere you are welcome. Doesn't
matter why you go to church as long as you feel the love of god there with
you.
BTW, I know I don't go to your church! :)
-Pele-
From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 22:28:43 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Death@yabbs
Subject: Other religions
Date: Fri Jul 22 22:28:43 1994
I welcome a chance to be educated. Give me those religions and examples.
I would appreciate a different insight.
Thanx,
Pele
From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 22:37:43 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: hawke@yabbs
Subject: re: Your question
Date: Fri Jul 22 22:37:43 1994
I'm sorry you feel that way because I would like to believe I'm the least
narrow minded person when it comes to religion and God. You do have
personal questions that you have to answer for yourself, Hawke and I
respect that.
If you are searching for something to believe in, start with yourself.
You have to find God within you and not you within God. The search for
something to believe in isn't external it is internal.
Point: The inqusition was caused by people who refused to accept that
there could be any other religion aside from Christianity. I have
nothing but contempt for that idea. I have no idea if my belief
system is correct. I only know that I have to believe that it is.
I would be a hypocrite otherwise (Can't spell for the life of
me!). I accept, however that other people believe other than I do
and I respect that. The search for God is personl and internal I
only offer my beliefs so that other can determine if they believe
what I believe or if they don't want to believe that. It's a
personal choice and I can only hope that they believe in God and
Jesus christ because then I have someone to worship with :)
I hope you see that neither I nor the rest of the church is your enemy.
The church is here to help you find yourself and God. I don't really know
why I'm here (a question I'm sure a lot of people ask!) but I'm still
searching. The difference is I'm doing that search with God.
-Pele-
From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 22:41:47 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Steyr@yabbs
Subject: re: My views.
Date: Fri Jul 22 22:41:47 1994
That's cool! As long as you have made your decision on your own I respect
that. One quick thing, though. No matter how "God" exists, he does serve
some good perposes.
Religions teach you to be a good person according to certain moral and
ethical laws. If people want to follow these laws and hope and even
believe that there will be a reward for their efforts...I say let them!
That's all
-pele
P.S. I'm sorry, I think I'm taking up too much of this base....sorry.
From Death@yabbs Sat Jul 23 01:50:28 1994
From: Death@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: The "Old" testament
Date: Sat Jul 23 01:50:28 1994
I'd just like to remind everyone that the old testament, as it is
currently written, has not changed at all in about 2500 years... there is
a written copy of it dating back about that far (I don't remember the
exact #) It is still written in the same exact script, with the
same flourishes and all as it was then. That is one of the biggest
traditions in Judaism. As to things being lost to translation, I can
assure you that most of what is in the Christian bible's translations is
relatively accurate (although I haven't gone over it with a fine toothed
comb). thus, the Roman/Greek legends and those of the Bible are probably
based on what were, essentially, the same events.
--Les
From Death@yabbs Sat Jul 23 02:13:01 1994
From: Death@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Other religions
Date: Sat Jul 23 02:13:01 1994
Alright, let me dig up my notebook... :>
When I find it, I'll add more detail to this, but for starters here's two:
Judaism:
Among those who study Kabbalah (Jewish Mysticism) it has been determined
through careful study of the Tanach (the 5 books of Moses, Prophets, and
Writings) that there are several instances where major figures in the
bible's Nishomot (souls) returned to try and redeem themselves. This is
reffered to as Gilgul (reincarnation, of sorts). Many people have spent
there lives researching this, and there is one prominent example which I
can reveal in detail. Moses, (the one who led the Israelites out of Egypt
had, in fact, existed in a previous life. There are many symbolic, and
substantial links between Moses and Noah. Noah was given 120 years to try
and save the world, before the floods. Moses lived for EXACTLY 120 years,
to the day. This occurance was explained to me by the following reasoning:
G-d knew he had given Noah a near-impossible task for a mortal to
accomplish, so he found the Nishoma (soul) of Moses who had not yet walked
upon the Earth, and added it to that of Noah, in the hopes of giving him a
chance. When Noah failed, G-d removed the soul of Moses, and decreed that
it would have a second chance to redeem itself. Thus, Moses himself was
born a little while later. When at the Red Sea, the sea did not
actually part for Moses, but for the coffin of Joshua (Jacob's favorite
son) which was born out of Egypt on he back of the Isrealites. This is
because the sea remembered Moses and blamed him for having had to destroy
everything. In fact, in his speech to the Israelites upon reaching the sea
(which is a prayer chanted every morning, incidentally) there appears to
be a second conversation going on, between Moses and the sea, although
only one half of it can be "heard" In it, Moses says "Please wipe me out,
I'm from Noach" which is yet another link. I'm going to stop now, before
the server kicks me for inactivity... more later.
This has been a friendly lesson in Kabbalah...
--Les
From Pele@yabbs Sat Jul 23 17:05:59 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: dmonger@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion, natch
Date: Sat Jul 23 17:05:59 1994
One quick thing. You pointed out that I often assume Greek/Roman when I
think of mythology and that is not always the case. Similarly you refer
to religion in terms of Catholicism whic is more than unfare to all the
other religions out there in the world.
One quick point: No matter what the belief system you possess, it's always
important to believe in something. It's not about belief
in a doctrine but in a way of life. I don't believe in
Hell, per say but I do believe in a heaven, or some sort of
reward for your life and how you lead it.
From Pele@yabbs Sat Jul 23 17:09:14 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Death@yabbs
Subject: re: Other religions
Date: Sat Jul 23 17:09:14 1994
facintaing...:)
From Natalie@yabbs Sat Jul 23 17:51:40 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Death@yabbs
Subject: re: Other religions
Date: Sat Jul 23 17:51:40 1994
kabbalah is cool...have you read foucault's pendulum (umberto eco)? lots
of kabbalah in that...it talks about rearranging the letters of the torah
and coming up with what god intended, not what man got, which is, becuase
we are imperfect, garbled....it's such a rad book...
natalie
From fish@yabbs Sat Jul 23 18:44:05 1994
From: fish@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Your question
Date: Sat Jul 23 18:44:05 1994
ch of cavemen trying to
lite a fire, I would be worshiped. Not because I am anything special,
but because in their minds it was a vision from their god. It will work
to solidify their belieifs in their religion, and I would get temples
built in worship of my airplane.
Maybe that is why the different religions feel so strongly about their
beliefs. And maybee that is why they try to convert you to their
beliefs, "because they saw my plane". Now, what if I flew over several
villages with different beliefs? Well, just as rumors and gossip goes,
you would have all these stories about Fish's aircraft, and they would
although have different traditions behind them, would be of the same
awe inspiring event. Some would build Dome shaped structures with little
fish designs on them, and some would build large fish totem poles. The
more developed ones would build spinxish F-16's, compleate with all of the
markings hoping I would land and groove with them.
I think there is one god, it's just that different people have their own
ways of paying tribute. I also don't think people should go to war just
because they saw my airplane at different times of the day, the evening
sect of F-16 worshipers and the morning set of F-16 worshipers. But
alas the world is a dynamic entity, and we really don't have any leaders
right now that are making everyone look at things the same way.
From what I see something is fishy, there has got to be some greater
picture that puts everything in it's place. Whether it is Star-Trek,
my caveman worshipers, or the "one true god" that has the correct
picture. We will not know for sure until we kick off. So I say, if it
isn't against their religion, buy everyone a round of drinks and let's
all live in peace and harmony. I also think that this particular
section of this BBS will help everyone to understand eachother's beliefs
and maybee we can use that to piece everything together. What was on
the tail flash of that streaking falcon? (no, it was a giant albatross!)
I hope I don't see that kind of bickering amongst us. Man, that was
a deep thought!
Take care!
Fish
From fish@yabbs Sat Jul 23 18:54:25 1994
From: fish@yabbs
To: fish@yabbs
Subject: re: Your question
Date: Sat Jul 23 18:54:25 1994
y an F-16 over a bunch
of cavemen trying to light a fire...
From fish@yabbs Sat Jul 23 18:56:46 1994
From: fish@yabbs
To: fish@yabbs
Subject: re: Your question
Date: Sat Jul 23 18:56:46 1994
e
dead line
dead line
The key to misunderstanding is having you're first paragraph cut off ;)
dead line
dead line
(ok, that should clear it)
I SAID, that my other letter starts out. "If I were to fly my F-16
over a bunch of cavemen trying to start a fire, I would be worshiped.
Not because I am anything special...
*smile*
Fish
From Death@yabbs Sat Jul 23 20:16:45 1994
From: Death@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: Other religions
Date: Sat Jul 23 20:16:45 1994
Yep, I have read it. Along with many other books along that vein (sp?)...
Technically, you're not allowed to study Kabbalah until you're 40, but
since when did I obey the rules? ;> Actually, if you can understand it the
Zohar is really cool (it's the REAL book of kabbalah). The trick to it is
that there are actually two copies: one that is publically available, and
the _real_ one which isn't very easy to come by... I've only seen one
copy, and my ancient Hebrew isn't all that great, so I had a little
trouble understanding it :> Oh well... I'll figure it out eventually.
--Les
From Natalie@yabbs Sun Jul 24 01:22:26 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Death@yabbs
Subject: re: Other religions
Date: Sun Jul 24 01:22:26 1994
and then there are those of us who only read religious works in
translation. like me. heheheh.
natalie
From Death@yabbs Sun Jul 24 01:57:40 1994
From: Death@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: Other religions
Date: Sun Jul 24 01:57:40 1994
hehehe the only problem is that it HASN'T BEEN TRANSLATED!!!
and no, I'm not kidding... it's been the same text, meticulously copied
for lord knows how long...
--Les
From Cat@yabbs Mon Jul 25 09:12:48 1994
From: Cat@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: good and evil
Date: Mon Jul 25 09:12:48 1994
i was thinking :) and it seems to me that you cannot have god at all
without having satan. if you believe in god as the supreme good, that
makes him different from something else, his power has a different effect
and different feel than something else..by putting a label on this
"power", or even simply by noticing the difference, we actually force into
existance a negative or "evil" force. woithout good there would be no evil
and vice versa. because if the world was "good" (which is totally
impossible anyway :) ) how would you know of evil? and if you didn't know
of evil, you wouldn't be able to say this is good.
mankind will always have its degenerate, unappealing factorsthat don't
measure up to whatever moral code is in place, and those factors will be
deemed as evil. change the moral code and what is now seen as evil might
be acceptable and perhaps even viewed as good.
-tammie
From Steyr@yabbs Mon Jul 25 10:20:12 1994
From: Steyr@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: God and Satan
Date: Mon Jul 25 10:20:12 1994
Actually, a lot of the people I have talked to, believe in God but do not
believe that Satan then also exists. I think the two go hand in hand, and
that if you don't believe that Satan exists then you can't belive God
exists either. Other people views wanted here please.
,,,
(o o)
+----oOO--(_)--OOo----+ +--------------------------+
| \ \ |
| Barry Noble / / Melbourne, Australia. |
| (Steyr) \ \ Steyr@GPO.swin.edu.au |
| / / |
+---------------------+ +--------------------------+
From Badger01@yabbs Mon Jul 25 10:50:04 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: What I am
Date: Mon Jul 25 10:50:04 1994
I'm a cursed cur..A Catholic who can't get past it...an unbeliever who
believes, a heretic who likes the Ppe as a person but thinks Celibacy is
driving Priests insane...I don't know anymore. I believe in something, but
I don't know what...I'd say I am a Gnostic Agnostic, but that'd be too
easyt to say (Although I sometimes think that I hear the Demi-Urge) and I
really just feel that I can never know the mind of God.
Badger01
Who thinks that God may be a Badger named Myrtle
:)
From Badger01@yabbs Mon Jul 25 10:51:51 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Your question
Date: Mon Jul 25 10:51:51 1994
>No matter what you believe...believe in God. He loves you like a father
>loves a child...only infinitely more.
I hope that he loves me better than my father did, because if he loves in
that way...then he hates me.
Badger01
From Badger01@yabbs Mon Jul 25 10:53:32 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: Your question
Date: Mon Jul 25 10:53:32 1994
On the ressurection motifd in Religon:
Several faiths (Mithraism, Demeter and Dionysus in the Greek, the
Norseief in Vallhalla) have a death and ressurection motif, but the
Phoenix was never worshipped.
Badger01
From Badger01@yabbs Mon Jul 25 10:57:19 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion, natch
Date: Mon Jul 25 10:57:19 1994
Christianity and the sect of Dionysus have much in common. Let's look at
this (And this is a nominal Catholic doing this, so you can't just dismiss
me as a non believer)
Dionysus, the son of the supreme sky god and a mortal woman, could heal
the sick and raise the dead. He turned water into wine. When he was put to
death, he rose three days hence.
This scenario happens again, practiaclly identically, in Mithraism, hich
is just Zoroasterian belief (Two gods, one Omnipotent good, one omnipotent
evil, both one being) with a resurrected man-god added. Compare this to
christianity. See any analogs?
Badger01
From alarm@yabbs Mon Jul 25 15:26:38 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: good and evil
Date: Mon Jul 25 15:26:38 1994
You said,
>i was thinking :) and it seems to me that you cannot have god at all
>without having satan...
You are correct when we think of it in psychological terms; the contrast
of evil helps us to see that good is good. But this is not a necessary
contrast as your argument supposes. Since the world is full of "evil" or
bad or whatever you want to call it, we cannot psychologically understand
good without it. But what it the world was something like it says it was
in the Bible. The sin that Adam and Eve committed had to do with this very
contrast. They thought that they would be like God, knowing good and evil.
The Bible sets a picture for us of the possibility of a world without evil
and without satan (before satan became evil he was an angel, i.e. good;
according to the Bible). The argument is that sin caused them to have this
psychological necessity thrust upon them and us. It is not a logical
necessity.
Anselm, a twelfth century monk (I think), or maybe 11th, said that God was
the only logically necessary being. It is called the ontological argument
for the existence of God. A very interesting argument, even in it's
primitive form.
-alarm.
From Pele@yabbs Mon Jul 25 17:34:08 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion, natch
Date: Mon Jul 25 17:34:08 1994
Ok, I will admit that there are similarities between Christianity and
other religious sects. In fact, I'm willing to concede that they are all
connected in some way.
So what it comes down to is faith. It's hard to have faith when the world
has delt you an uneven hand (believe me I know). It's even harder to have
faith when everything has been rosey for you your entire life. It's easy
to dismiss modernday miracles as Mother Nature (which, in fact is
prescribing some all powerful force the job of running nature) but I find
it much more appealing to believe that no matter what there is someone out
there who always cares no matter what and that someone will always be
there when I need him/her.
So what it all boils down to is that God (or the image of God) is
comforting to people and I find the aiethists out there who insist on
ramming their aiethistic beliefs down people's throats offensive. You
personal beliefs are understandable (only to you) but I beg of you...if
you refuse to believe that a supreme all-knowing and omnipotent being
exists in our Universe, there is nothing I can say to convince you
otherwise and I'll be the last person to try (I have tried and failed too
often). All I ask is that you respect that and not try and convince me
that I am wrong by quoting other religions and certified myths to me as
evidence of fallacy in my belief.
The fact of the matter is, if all these religions can name incidents with
such similarity and precision, I'm inclined to believe that they are
talking about the same person with a different name. Open your minds to
the possibility that there is a God and find a world that you never knew
existed.
One last thing. There is no scientific proof that God exists. But
similarly, there is none to say that God does not exist. As a result,
until proven otherwise, I'm going to search for him in my own way: with
faith, hope and love in my heart.
Laugh and scorn all you want because the Bible predicted this response
over two thousand years ago.
-Pele-
From pixy@yabbs Mon Jul 25 18:50:21 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: whoopteedoo
Date: Mon Jul 25 18:50:21 1994
So we changed the name of the base. Big deal. What were we talking about
in the the anarchy base? Politics and religion.
Well, let's go on and jump inot this bible thumpin' frey.
Hi! I'm a 19 year old non religious, non christian, non jew, non anything.
I believe in the ultimate failure of logic to explain and fufilll
us--translation: i believe in some sort of god. From what i've read so
far most all of us here are pretty much the same in our religious
views--Pele is a fellow Techie, so of course he is a christian :).
Actually, i don't think i would like to jump into this bible thumping
frey. It's a waste of time. Afterall, don't you all agree that it is
absurd to settle issues of faith in nonlogical things throught logical
discourse--translation: isn't it stupid to argue about things we can't
humanly prove one way or the other?
So, instead. I want to talk about something a little more secular:
politics. Moan if you like, but next to architecture and sex, it's my
life. Helll, I'll even address a religious issue with my opening blow.
here's my thought, I welcome any feelings--don't worry about hurting my
feelings.
My Thought:
The renewed religious reactionary movement in America threatens the
integrity--regardless of how much is presently there--of the
Constitution(my bible) and religion itself(your bible). Afterall, isn't
the whole movement a scurrilous plot to exploit religion in order to
promote an economic and political agenda that is irrevelant and even
against the teachings of the New Testament which so many of you plebes
treasure?
Fire Away,
Pixus Pietus (Pious Pixy)
From alarm@yabbs Mon Jul 25 19:44:39 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: whoopteedoo
Date: Mon Jul 25 19:44:39 1994
pixy,
I think that I probably respond to more or your posts than anyone else's.
I guess it's because you present the most interesting arguments. I agree
with your thought:
>The renewed religious reactionary movement in America threatens the
>integrity of the Constitution and religion itself...
I would like to take this as an opportunity to present my view as to why
it is a misguided effort. As a follower of Jesus my motivation and
reasoning will be different than your's, but our conclusions are quite
similar.
Short history lesson. Many years ago one of the Roman Emporers was
converted - enter Constantine. With Constantine came the mixing of the
state and the church. Those who were born into the empire were thereby
automatically born into the church. --Heresy in the New Testament-- Ever
since that time, most of the church has viewed itself as having some sort
of relationship with the state. When the Reformation came great strides
were made in reforming the church, but Constantinian Christianity
remained, except withing the Radical arm of the reformation. These
radicals were called Anabaptists because they re-baptized adults. Both the
Catholics and the reformers hated and killed the Anabaptists. In America
today there has been great strides to separate church from state. The
state certainly wants to quell the religious influences, but unfortunately
much of the church still feels that it has a role in the state. IMO it is
the Constantinian compromise that is misleading both the religious right
and the religious left in this country. One is trying to make the state
like the church and the other is trying to make the church like the state.
Solution: The church today needs to look back to the Biblical Anabaptists
like the Swiss Bretheren and the Mennonites, and the later movement in
England of Baptists. These and many others can all be called by the same
name "Believers' Church." The Believers' Church believes that only those
who believe should be members of the church and those who are in the
church do not compromise with the state. We support peace and oppose war.
Many of the atrocities of the church such as the religious wars and the
crusades came about because of the Constantinian compromise.
There's more, but that's enough for now.
sounding the
alarm
From subvrtUS@yabbs Mon Jul 25 23:10:58 1994
From: subvrtUS@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: whoopteedoo
Date: Mon Jul 25 23:10:58 1994
youre damn righOD ad you know what? why believe in something that your
parents originally indoctrinated you with when you were a kid? Find
youyour own set of beliefs and then match them with existing religions. If
no match, sa t start a knew one.
sanfu
x
From sienna@yabbs Tue Jul 26 00:40:10 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: A thought on REL
Date: Tue Jul 26 00:40:10 1994
I just posted a poem on the poetry base about hypocrisy in the church
(post #808) to which I thought I would direct your attention. (Actually, I
am too lazy to retype the whole thing out here, and since this is not
technically a poetry base, I thought it best to leave my poem on the board
it belonged...*smile*)
I hope this doesn't offend anyone (my poem, I mean). I have been seriously
hurt by people who were doing something "in the name of the Lord." I
myself believe in God (how else am I still ALIVE?). But I do not call
myself a "Christian." My faith in organized religion was killed when the
church I was going to and the pastor I looked to for guidance burned me.
The poem is dedicated to two people who, in the eyes of the church and the
community, were "God-Fearing, good Christian people," yet who did
unspeakable acts of torture and abuse.
*shrug*
Oh well, just thought I would throw my two cents worth in. I welcome any
ideas and/or comments.
Dee
aka sienna
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Jul 26 01:24:19 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: What I am
Date: Tue Jul 26 01:24:19 1994
i sometimes think that i am a gnostic agnostic as well...but i don't hear
the demi-urge, i hear sophia...
natalie
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Jul 26 01:26:16 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion, natch
Date: Tue Jul 26 01:26:16 1994
*SIGH*
i want jesusbot
*smirk*
natalie
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Jul 26 01:28:43 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: whoopteedoo
Date: Tue Jul 26 01:28:43 1994
um...have you ever read 'the life of the blessed emperor constantine' by
eusebius? if you have then you know that constantine went out in the
woods one days and wondered which god was the most powerful...he then saw
a glowing cross in the sky and decided that christianity was the way to
go...so cneturies of pain and suffering were birthed by on man's
hallucination....
natalie
From Badger01@yabbs Tue Jul 26 10:24:41 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion, natch
Date: Tue Jul 26 10:24:41 1994
I think you mistook me for someone who hasn't already stated that he DOES
believe in a God.
Duder, for someone dedicated to NOT trying to convince us...you are trying
hard to convince us, and it's grating.
This isn't a flame...I'm not angry with ya, and I'm not accusing you of
anything. (Well, yes I am, but it's hardly a crime to be inconsistent...I
do it all the time.)
Badger01
From Badger01@yabbs Tue Jul 26 10:27:13 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: What I am
Date: Tue Jul 26 10:27:13 1994
That's probably teh same thing, in a way..
What I feel is what drives me..I feel it the strongest when I'm clicking
as a writer, and I know that it's working and I can flow and theres a
power in me and I scream though the words like liquid. A freind of mine
calls it "Mainlining God" when you hit that state.
Badger01
From Badger01@yabbs Tue Jul 26 10:30:17 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: Chi-Rho
Date: Tue Jul 26 10:30:17 1994
He didn't ACTUALLY see the cross, according to his biographers, but he saw
the Chi-Rho, that strange symbol Catholic Priests still wear on their
Sunday Vestments...It's the Greek letters Chi and the Greek Letter Rho
combined, and it stands for Christ..does KINDA look like a cross, but not
really...And he saw words in fire above the sun.."BY THIS SIGN SHALL YOU
CONQUER" except in latin. "In Hoc Signo Vinces" I believe.
Which kinda suggests that you shouldn't stare into the sun.
Badger01
From alarm@yabbs Tue Jul 26 13:29:27 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: Constantine
Date: Tue Jul 26 13:29:27 1994
Eusebius did a lot for the church in giving us all that history stuff that
we wouldn't know if he hadn't done it, But he practically thought
Constantine was the second coming of Christ. He didn't see the devastation
that was coming on the church.
Before constantine the church was visible and the working of God in the
world (Providence) was invisible. After Constantine theologians reversed
it and Augustine said the real church was invisible (because those who
were not saved were in the church) and People like Eusebius thought that
what they saw Constantine do must be the providence of God, thus
providence became visible. The whole concept of the church was switched
around.
sounding the
alarm
From Pele@yabbs Tue Jul 26 15:07:53 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: jesusbot
Date: Tue Jul 26 15:07:53 1994
heehehehehe.
From Pele@yabbs Tue Jul 26 15:29:18 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: Sorry
Date: Tue Jul 26 15:29:18 1994
I really shouldn't have went that message to you. It was really directed
at everyone. I am just sick and tired of being looked down upon because I
am a firm believer in Jesus Christ and the Christian faith!
I was told by someone on this thing that "Aiethists are some of the most
intelligent people in the world!" Now how am I supposed to take that?
You want to know what I did? I appologized for being as pushy as I am
(although I don't really think that I am). So...for the last time...this
is directed at everyone:
You can beleive whatever
woops....Ok...let's try that again...
You guys are free to believe whatever you want. I'm not trying to convert
anyone. I think that it is just a ludicrous NOT to believe in God as many
of you think that it is for me to believe in God. I guess that's the way
things are.
I was under the impression that this was a place where we could
discuss Religous Issuses in a friendly and polite atmosphere. If that is
not the case...if this is to be a God-Bashing/Christian-Bashing channel,
please let me know so that I don't bother to read it anymore. If, however
this is a channel for all to open their minds to, in order to discuss
their respective beliefs then I'm happy to be here. (I know I can't
convert anyone and I wouldn't bother to try, I just express my opinions
and if those are offensive then I'm sorry)
Well..that's it. If this sarts a flame war then I overextimated the
members of yabbs. I hope I didn't.
-Pele-
From Badger01@yabbs Tue Jul 26 15:34:41 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Sorry
Date: Tue Jul 26 15:34:41 1994
I wasn't trying to slam you.
Okay...anyway, onto a question, so as to allow people who worship things
we haven't mentioned yet to jump in: What is the actual nature of
Divinity? What is it composed of? Do we know? CAN we?
Badger01
From dmonger@yabbs Tue Jul 26 16:12:14 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Sorry
Date: Tue Jul 26 16:12:14 1994
Why is it that you weren't trying to convert any of us with your arguments,
but we were trying to destroy your beliefs?
sorry, but i always get annoyed when religions people tell me that the
athiests are trying to take over the world, but that they're just trying
to enlighten us poor heathens
-peter
(who realizes that pele's post wasn't ment in this manner but who is annoyed
by this problem all the same)
From sienna@yabbs Tue Jul 26 17:18:48 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Sorry
Date: Tue Jul 26 17:18:48 1994
I certainly hope that this doesn't become a "God-basing/Christian-bashing"
channel either....I know that I have been severely traumatized by people
who claim to be Christians...I guess what I am looking for is discussion
on a mature and compassionate basis which in turn can help me to come to
some sort of decision on where I stand on the whole religion issue.
I hope I have made some sort of sense.
Dee
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Jul 26 20:07:47 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: What I am
Date: Tue Jul 26 20:07:47 1994
i never thought of it that way...i LOVE that feeling you get when you're
writing and you know it's good and you don't ever want it to stop....it's
the MOST incredible feeling in the world for me...literature and writing
are more my religion than christianity ever will be...i grew up surrounded
by books, i've spent my life loving books and being alone with them...i
can't say that that's ever happened with me & jesus...
natalie
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Jul 26 20:08:20 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: Chi-Rho
Date: Tue Jul 26 20:08:20 1994
or eat shrooms that you find growing in the forest...
natalie
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Jul 26 20:09:35 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: Constantine
Date: Tue Jul 26 20:09:35 1994
i never said that eusebius was an unbiased source. he's a VERY biased
source. but he's the best one we have, and after you sift thru the
pandering bullshit you get to some truth. if you want to read something
funny, read procopius's secret history...that's awesome....
natalie
From Faith@yabbs Wed Jul 27 02:33:51 1994
From: Faith@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: live/let live
Date: Wed Jul 27 02:33:51 1994
two cents worth in
here. You know considering my name and all. ;) Perhaps it's just me but
I think the answer to a lot of things is simple. To me if we just "live
and let live" then the world might be a nicer place. Call me an optimist,
but that's kind of my line of thinking. Plus respect seems to be needed
in the world. Respect for other's views. I'm not sure how the above fits
into this base but seems appropriate to me. Now the next things is I
consider myself Christian. I believe in God, Satan, Jesus. I don't
however really believe in attending church. I was raised Catholic and saw
a lot of hypocrisy in the church. I won't go into that. That's just my
opinion on it and who am I to judge anyone really? Who are any of us to
judge? See, that's what I think is so funny about some ppl who try to
force religion or their views down others' throats. My understanding of a
section in the bible says, "let the sinless cast the first stone". It
also seems to say, "judge not lest ye be judged." Now the last part I
think of often seems to say that, "we are born of sin." So basically my
thought is that none of us are sinless, so therefore none of us have a
right to judge anyone else. Make sense? I hope so because it's late and
I'm tired, just thought I'd ramble a bit before bed. Comments? Questions?
Problems?
Faith :)
From Faith@yabbs Wed Jul 27 02:36:45 1994
From: Faith@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: live/let live
Date: Wed Jul 27 02:36:45 1994
The first part of my message said...I guess a few of you guys figured I'd
put my two cents worth in...etc.etc.
Really wondering why things keep getting cut off...ideas anyone?
Faith
From pixy@yabbs Wed Jul 27 02:43:21 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: subvrtUS@yabbs
Subject: re: whoopteedoo
Date: Wed Jul 27 02:43:21 1994
In message re: whoopteedoo, subvrtUS said:
> youre damn righOD ad you know what? why believe in something that your
> parents originally indoctrinated you with when you were a kid? Find
> youyour own set of beliefs and then match them with existing religions. If
> no match, sa t start a knew one.
I'm with you on that one. I grew up with a catholic, yet very open and
philisophical, father and an agnostic, very scientific, mother. An
interesting combination to say the least, they allowed much freedom of
choice in religion. I really hate to see kids grow likely zombies,
religion spoon-fed daily, never questioning. I never stop questioning.
So far the only religious document that i've accepted is Ecclesiastes and
probalbly will be the only one.
pixy
From pixy@yabbs Wed Jul 27 02:48:10 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: whoopteedoo
Date: Wed Jul 27 02:48:10 1994
In message re: whoopteedoo, Natalie said:
> um...have you ever read 'the life of the blessed emperor constantine' by
> eusebius? if you have then you know that constantine went out in the
> woods one days and wondered which god was the most powerful...he then saw
> a glowing cross in the sky and decided that christianity was the way to
Are you sure about that? I heard that ole constantine had a dream haunted
by angels. They told him that if he bore the cross in battle the next day,
he would win. So he tried it, won the battle, and for better or for worse,
the rest was history.
Either way, one of the nuttier phases in human history--or
herstory (chuckle chuckle)--was founded upon nuttery. It's fitting, I
suppose.
pixy
From pixy@yabbs Wed Jul 27 02:56:26 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: Chi-Rho
Date: Wed Jul 27 02:56:26 1994
In message Chi-Rho, Badger01 said:
> He didn't ACTUALLY see the cross, according to his biographers, but he saw
> the Chi-Rho, that strange symbol Catholic Priests still wear on their
> Sunday Vestments...It's the Greek letters Chi and the Greek Letter Rho
> combined, and it stands for Christ..does KINDA look like a cross, but not
> really...And he saw words in fire above the sun.."BY THIS SIGN SHALL YOU
> CONQUER" except in latin. "In Hoc Signo Vinces" I believe.
You know, that chi rho stuff really makes alot of sense. Everytime my
father use to get really frustrated--this happened mainly when he was
trying to fix something--he would loudly exclaim, "Chi-Rhi-St!!!This damn
thing just won't work!!!" I always figured that was a prayer of some sort.
Well, it's close to Chi Rho, anyway.
And the Latin would probalbly be "HOC SIGNO VINCES" since an ablative of
means in Latin doesn't require a preposition.
From pixy@yabbs Wed Jul 27 03:05:36 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: whoopteedoo
Date: Wed Jul 27 03:05:36 1994
it would be "HOC SIGNO VINCES" since an ablative of means in latin
doesn't require a prepostion.
But if i had been Constantine, and someone told me, "HOC SIGNO VINCES", I
would've surely replied, "VIR ES ALTO AUT QUID?"--"Are you high or
something, man?"
From pixy@yabbs Wed Jul 27 03:15:29 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: whoopteedoo
Date: Wed Jul 27 03:15:29 1994
i'm sorry but the computer is playing with my mind, thus the two different
posts saying the same thing.
...Hey wait, now it's telling me that if i worship Jesus, i'll figure out
how to Ftp alt.pictures.erotica strait to my own computer at home and not
my network account. Seems fair enough...
pixy
From Natalie@yabbs Wed Jul 27 07:07:02 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: whoopteedoo
Date: Wed Jul 27 07:07:02 1994
yes i'm sure about that...i had to read the damn thing for my class and i
remember thinking how fucking ludicrous it was...he might of had a dream
too, i can't remember...alli really remember is the hallucination ion the
woods and eusebius's overwhelming awe of constantine...hey, i'tbeen 10
months, so give me a break...
natalie
From sienna@yabbs Wed Jul 27 12:07:27 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Faith@yabbs
Subject: re: live/let live
Date: Wed Jul 27 12:07:27 1994
I think you hit the nail on the head, sis!
*hugs*
Love,
Dee
From alarm@yabbs Wed Jul 27 16:26:26 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Faith@yabbs
Subject: re: live/let live
Date: Wed Jul 27 16:26:26 1994
You said,
>I don't however really believe in attending church. I was raised Catholic
>and saw a lot of hyppocricy in the church.
My couple of pennies goes something like this.
I think it's too bad that so many people have abandoned the church because
of the problems in it. I realize that the problems are real, but maybe if
those who really saw the problems got involved in church we could take
care of some of them. I did not grow up in a religious household, instead
I went to church on my own when I was 11 or 12. I had a personal encounter
with Jesus Christ and accepted him as my savior and tried to be his
follower. A problem occured when one of the leaders in the church who
befriended me turned out to be homosexual and tried to molest me. I
definitely felt sexually abused, but I will not go into the details. I
never told anyone, I just left the church. Later on I realized that this
man's sin was not God's fault and I returned to church. More problems
arose, I left, then later found another church. I felt God calling me but
didn't know how to follow him. I needed the church to help me learn how to
follow Jesus. Finally I found a real church that, although it still had
its hypocrites and other shortcomings, really taught me to be a disciple
of Jesus.
Now it happens that I have moved a lot since then and have attended
several other churches, non of them have been perfect. Now I am preaching
and ministering in my own church. I have a new vision of the church and
what it means and what it can mean for people to be a part of it. Jesus
said, where two or three are gathered there I am in your midst. The church
is the place where we meet Jesus in a fuller experience than we can have
on our own. My own metaphor for the church is a detox center for the
saved. The only way to be saved, cleansed or your sins, made acceptable in
God's sight is by believing in Jesus and following him. But once
you become a follower of Jesus; a disciple. You are still not perfect this
side of heaven. We bring our selves into the church and since we are not
perfect we bring sin and hypocricy into the church just like everyone
else. The church as a detox center helps us to clean up those areas of our
lives that we are blind to. Those sins that we do not realize that we have
can be recognized by others in the church and they can help us to grow. We
can also help them to grow as we see where they are failing to walk the
faithful life. Only as a community of believers can we really grow. The
church is not perfect, but if we are daring enough to be a truthful people
we will be able to accomplish some good in this world.
thanks for listening to me ramble just a bit,
alarm
From sienna@yabbs Wed Jul 27 20:09:51 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Winds of Change
Date: Wed Jul 27 20:09:51 1994
Ok....here we go....
We all know how I feel about the church...one of the main issues in the
church right now which is just STEEPED in hypocrisy is the issue regarding
homosexuality....
Now, my best friend is homosexual, and has been since we were kids. I have
watched him struggle and struggle with this. He is a christian, but
unfortunately he is condemned by the church for being homosexual and
condemned by others in the gay community because he has religious
beliefs....
I read some things on this subject which I am going to try and paraphrase.
Bear with me...
If we, as Christians, are going to minister to gay people in Christ's
name, we first must stop viewing homosexual orientation and homesexual
persons in the abstract. We must allow them to become PERSONALIZED to
us...As we stop keeping homosexuality at a distance, as an abstract, then
we can see it up close, with a face, as something that happens to REAL
PEOPLE. And we can begin to feel the pain of bearing a stigma and
experiencing the oppression and fear as though it is something that were
happing to us.
We would much rather deny that there could be people
out there who have different needs - instead choosing
to condemn those whose views are different as being
sinful and wrong. This has been programmed into us from
early childhood.
People are Christians first, human beings second, and homo-
sexual last...
It isn't our place to judge...it is our place to LOVE.
Some people don't want to understand. And there are many unqualified moral
judges sitting in a lot od church pews. It is interesting to note that
Jesus said nothing about this issue. But he DID say a lot about judging.
A person's homosexuality has no bearing upon whether
or not he is good or evil. It has no bearing upon
whether or not that person has accepted Christ as thei
Lord and Savior, or whether that person believes that
Jesus died for them. Their sexuality is only one aspect
of their lives - just as it is one aspect of yours, re-
gardless of whether you are gay or straight.
We as Christians are called to love one another as _our-
selves_, not to love one another except when the other
person's sexuality is different than our own...
More to come.....
From sienna@yabbs Wed Jul 27 20:23:13 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Winds of Change II
Date: Wed Jul 27 20:23:13 1994
RELIGIOUS THINKING IN TRANSITION
--------------------------------
In the past few years, theological thinkers have begun to review the
biblical passages that condemn homosexuality as unnatural and sinful. They
are realizing that the few condemnatory verses in scripture arose at a
time when the authority of the father in the family and the clan was
supreme and unquestioned. In those perilous Old Testament times, having
children was a mojor priority for the survival and prosperity of the
community. But knowledge of sexuality and procreation was INACCURATE. It
was thought that each male "seed" was a new being. They assumed that the
mother only provided an incubator for the baby. Therefore, any sexual
activity that "wasted the seed" was considered a threat to the tribe.
Coitus interruptus, male homosexuality, and masturbation were all
deemedserving of a judgement as severe as execution.
The male heads of the families also determined the general attitudes of
the clan. While they esposed heterosexuality, they were opposed to
thelity of the sexes. Women were viewd as property, valued for their
ability to have sons. Female children were sometimes put to death, and
women had few rights. Today, the majority of people in Western
civilization consider such beliefs as outrageous violations of human
dignity.
As for homosexuality, the old patriarchs scornfully, even cruelly,
rejected it, as evidenced by their practice of anal rape against enemies
as a way of humiliating then. In this practice, a man was using a man as
he would a woman - as inferior to be dominated. Such practices and beliefs
do not fit into our present knowledge of women or homosexuals. Neither do
they fit the needs of our society.
But the old ideas die with difficulty, particularly in fundamentalist
churches. However, there is hope...as theologians are now considering the
scientific evidence that homosexuality is simply a natural condition for
some people in all cultures. More and more are maintaing that religious
view of gayness should not be limited by outdated attitudes. A more
generous spirit applies the universal biblical message of loving your
neighbor and being fair and nonjudgemental to all persons - gay as well as
heterosexual.
More to come.....
From Natalie@yabbs Wed Jul 27 22:11:32 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: live/let live
Date: Wed Jul 27 22:11:32 1994
just one little thing...how did you have a personal encounter with jesus?
this is something i just can't understand....could you please explain?
(part of my problem with it is that my sister is a fundie who only goes to
church sporadically but when she does she speaks in tongues...and when
she's not in church she's preaching but not practicing...she'd fit in real
well with some, no, i mean ll the televangelists)
natalie
From Pele@yabbs Thu Jul 28 00:42:01 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: Winds of Change
Date: Thu Jul 28 00:42:01 1994
I like the whole message. One thing.
I would not dare speak out against homosexuality. For 3 reasons and I
hope that other christians in the world would make a similar decision:
Reason #1:I have no idea what exactly God thinks on the matter. I have
been told by many and read for myself that God looks down
on it as abominable (Sp?). Leviticus 18:22 is often quoted
specifically and then Corinithians something. The fact is I
have looked at all those points that you made and decided that
I simply don't know so why judge?
Reason #2:Even if I did know I would have to leave it to God. As Faith
pointed out the Bible says "Judge Not that ye may not be
judged" Jesus said that one. So...I can't judge..so says the
Big Cheeze.
Reason #3:If I or the church had the audacity to speak out against
Homosexuality and condemn the people involved...then I would
have to speak out against fornication, and adultery and all
other "sexual sin." I am simply not in a position to do so.
I would have to "remove the mote" from my eye before removing
the beam from the homosexual populations ( I think I got that
backwards but you get my point)
Anyway...I went through a lot to agree with you. I do have to say
though...that I do look at homosexuals as individuals and as people and it
is not the individuals that should be frowned upon or told that they are
sinners. We all are. It is simply the act that is forbidden by the Bible
and I believe that if the Church is going to hold a strong position
against the act (or the people) then they will have to condemn everyone
that has ever had premarital or extramarital sex. Soo....I don't think
it's up to us...
Ok...enough of my blabbing...thanx for listening
-Pele-
From sienna@yabbs Thu Jul 28 00:48:54 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Winds of Change
Date: Thu Jul 28 00:48:54 1994
I just wanted to say thanks for responding.
BTW: I am not gay, but I have a vested interest in this issue because my
best friend in the whole world IS gay. I have watched him struggle with
this for years. I love him, and it hurts me when people who claim to have
the love of Jesus in their hearts tell him he should be dead and that AIDS
is something we should all fall on our knees and thank God for...Frankly,
that makes me sick to my stomach.
I will have more to say on this matter. I was just wondering what kind of
response I would get from you all.
*hugs*
Dee
From Pele@yabbs Thu Jul 28 01:45:21 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: Winds of Change
Date: Thu Jul 28 01:45:21 1994
I'm glad that this is brought up. A lot of people in the church have to
come to grips with their homosexual-phobia (I don't like the word homo-phobia
because it means "fear of man" which is sort of a disease I have so...)
Well...that's it.
**HUG**
-Pele-
From robtelee@yabbs Thu Jul 28 01:57:42 1994
From: robtelee@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: Winds of Change
Date: Thu Jul 28 01:57:42 1994
It is my understanding that we should hate the sin, but love the sinner.
It would be up to the individual "sinner" to realize whether or not what
they sre doing is wrong after consulting Scripture and prayer. I am NOT a
fit judge to say "what you are doing is wrong !" That is not for me to
say.
I have done things that were wrong in God's sight. After reading
scripture, I realized that what I had done was wrong. I still slip up
every once in a while. But I feel that I am forgiven by God because I go
to Him through His son, Jesus Christ with a contrite heart. This helps me
get through my life and some difficult times. And I know God is with me..
I knew it definitely last Wednesday around 5:00 pm on a rain-slick road,
hanging by my seat-belts upside down. That experience has proven, TO ME,
that God does watch over me.
robtelee
From Faith@yabbs Thu Jul 28 02:05:26 1994
From: Faith@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: live/let live
Date: Thu Jul 28 02:05:26 1994
*******************************
Ok, hoping this first part of my message doesn't get cut off like it
seems to be doing a lot lately.
Uh I I really like what you had to say Alarm. I think it's awesome that
you didn't give up on the church and I think what you are doing sounds
really great. Maybe I should have clarified something about what I had
said. I did see a lot of hypocrisy in the church and I went to other
churches of the same religion, still didn't "feel" anything in my heart
there. I could never continued on with anything in my life unless I felt
that what I was doing was right, with my whole heart. So, I figure that
religion isn't right for me. I am not even sure if any particular church
is right for me at the moment. I have(pardon the pun) faith that the Lord
knows what He is doing for me. He'll take me to the right church when He
is ready to, like He will help me work things out in my life. I know to
some people that sounds flakey.(sp?) I just know what churches and
religions aren't right for me. Sometimes it's hard to have faith in
things but I am trying and seeing one of my sisters and her husband helps
me. That is a long story, I may tell another time. Basically my sister
and her husband are Christians. He is a minister in Montana and they are
more charismatic, tending to believe in laying of hands, speaking in
tongues, spiritual warfare, etc. etc. I believe in what believe in but
not to the same extent sometimes. I'll tell more about them if anyone is
interested some other time. It really is an exciting story, trust me. :)
Good testimony too. :)
Babbling on as usual,
Faith
From Phreddie@yabbs Thu Jul 28 03:10:06 1994
From: Phreddie@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: Winds of Change
Date: Thu Jul 28 03:10:06 1994
Personally, I really do not care about how people think about
homosexuality.. well, actually, I just don't like the fact that some
people prejudice others due to teh fact of their sexual preference..
BUT I do remember somewhere in the bible (in my 17 years of Christian
training.. jeez, a lot of good that did ) that homosexuality was against
god's will.. somethign like it didn't do any good because he told us all
to be fruitful and multiply and that homosexuality is therefore evil
because it doesn't follow his will.. somethign to that extent..
Remember, this is just whaht's in the bible.. now what I personally
think..
er, not what I personally think..
From pixy@yabbs Thu Jul 28 03:14:54 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: whoopteedoo
Date: Thu Jul 28 03:14:54 1994
In message re: whoopteedoo, Natalie said:
> yes i'm sure about that...i had to read the damn thing for my class and i
> remember thinking how fucking ludicrous it was...he might of had a dream
> too, i can't remember...alli really remember is the hallucination ion the
> woods and eusebius's overwhelming awe of constantine...hey, i'tbeen 10
> months, so give me a break...
Yea, it is pretty ludicrous--but pretty cool, too. I mean, the last time i
was hallucinating all i saw was trails, but at least i had the insight to
realize it wasn't real.
pixy
From pixy@yabbs Thu Jul 28 03:18:38 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: Winds of Change II
Date: Thu Jul 28 03:18:38 1994
In message Winds of Change II, sienna said:
> as a way of humiliating then. In this practice, a man was using a man as
> he would a woman - as inferior to be dominated. Such practices and beliefs
> do not fit into our present knowledge of women or homosexuals. Neither do
> they fit the needs of our society.
It's interesting to hear that they would do that. That's exactly how dogs
show dominance over one another.
pixy
From Dee@yabbs Thu Jul 28 03:51:01 1994
From: Dee@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: Winds of Change II
Date: Thu Jul 28 03:51:01 1994
It IS interesting, isn't it....resorting to an example from the beasts
around us....to humilate...kind of like saying "not only are you like a
woman but as mangy as a dog." Hehehehe, I kinda like that. (weird, aren't
I?)
Dee
aka sienna
From sienna@yabbs Thu Jul 28 12:23:01 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: Winds of Change
Date: Thu Jul 28 12:23:01 1994
I like the way you think! *hug*
Dee
:)
From sienna@yabbs Thu Jul 28 12:51:30 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: More Winds of Change
Date: Thu Jul 28 12:51:30 1994
There is so much to be said on this topic....however, I am trying to be as
brief as possible.
Point of reference: James B. Nelson's "Embodiment: An Approach to
Sexuality and Christian Theology"
There are four theological positions toward homosexuality in the
contemporary religious community: (1) a rejecting-punitive attitude
(homosexuality should not be accepted and should be punished), (2) a
rejecting-nonpunitive attitude (homosexuality is seen as forbidden by
scriptures, but homosexual persons should be treated with forgiving
grace), (3) a qualified acceptance position (homosexuality is tolerable if
it is deemed irreversible and if the relationship is monogamous), and (4)
full acceptance (homosexuality should be placed on a par with
heterosexuality and the same ethical principles should be applied to
both).
THE REJECTING-PUNITIVE ATTITUDE
-------------------------------
"So God created man in His own image; in the image of
God He created him; male and female created He them...
and God said unto them "Be fruitful and multiply."
Genesis 1:27, 28
To many readers of the Bible this passage offers scriptural proof that
God's natural design for humans is heterosexual union. For them, this
proves that any sexual expression other than heterosexuality is unnatural
and sinful.
Isolated passages from the Bible are quoted by biblical literalists to
establish this position.
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an
abomination."
Leviticus 18:22
"If a man lie with a male as with a woman, both of them
have committed an abomination; they shall be put to
death, their blood is upon them."
Leviticus 21:13
But it also says in Leviticus:
"If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor,
both the adulterer and adulteress shall be put to death."
Leviticus 20:10
While it is clear that these scriptures are important to those who adopt a
rejecting-punitive attitude, it is strange how they pull back from the
literal punishment prescribed.
It is also interesting to note how scriptural passages are unfairly
selected to bring homosexuality under attack. We are told that gays are
going to be sent to hell. Rarely are we told that the same fate awaits
those who are greedy for money (99.9% of the population), who are heavy
drinkers (alcoholism is an epidemic here in the US), or who have sex
outside of marriage (I myself can be included in that bunch). Nor do these
same bible-thumping do-gooders mention passages from Leviticus which
forbid the eating of rabbit, oysters, clams, shrimp and pork.
More to come on the Rejecting-Punitive issue........
Dee
From alarm@yabbs Thu Jul 28 17:28:33 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: encounter
Date: Thu Jul 28 17:28:33 1994
You asked me to explain how I had a personal encounter with Jesus.
This may get a little philosophical, but try to bear with me. I am getting
ready right now to go to church and teach a Bible study on Acts 9 where
Paul encounters Jesus on the Damascus road. While my "encounter" was not
of a physical nature like Paul's was, it was still a real encounter. After
studying the different defenses that people give for the existence of God
I have chosen to use the experiential defense, except that I try not to
put in into a defensive posture. Here is how it goes, sort a:
If you were blind you would have no experience with the phenomena of a
desert orange and purple sunset. I might try to explain it to you and you
may get some sort of very limited idea of it, but without the experience
you will never really understand what I am talking about.
I have had experiences with God, but they are not the kind of experience
that corresponds with any of the natural senses that you have. It is a
spiritual experience. It takes spiritual eyes and ears to see and hear
God. When you read the Bible and the Holy Spirit dwells in you He confirms
the reality of what you are reading. Calvin spoke of this type of thing.
Jesus often said _for him who has ears to hear let him hear_. Isaiah said
_having ears they do not hear_ or something like that.
The only solution that I can really give you is that I you will truly seek
God and ask him to reveal himself to you he can do it; I cannot. As you
can see, this is not much of a defense of God, but then, neither is the
ontological argument, or the cosmological argument, or the teleological
argument. What I see my role as, is showing people where God is already at
work in their lives. If I knew more about where you were spiritually, I
might (might) be able to help you see where you may have already
encountered God, because I think that it probably already happened to some
extent. I had a friend who became a christian and he said afterwards, now
I can see that God has been at work in my life here, and here, and here
and I never saw it before. It too conversion before he could truly see.
alarm,
btw, that is really sort of my name, it's Terry A. Larm :) => alarm
From alarm@yabbs Thu Jul 28 17:32:34 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Faith@yabbs
Subject: re: live/let live
Date: Thu Jul 28 17:32:34 1994
I think the key to finding God is humility.
IMHO,
alarm
From Natalie@yabbs Thu Jul 28 20:12:08 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: encounter
Date: Thu Jul 28 20:12:08 1994
one of the reasons i have a very difficult in believing in a kind and
forgiving god is because my mother died young. there was no reason for
her death other than the fact that she refused to go to a doctor for her
chest pains (me & my sisterasked her to go to one the night before she
died). and i wanted to kill the ppl at the funeral who came up to me and
said that her work on this earth was done, and that God must have wanted
her in heaven. first of all, her work was NOT done on this earth. she
wasn't done raising me & my sister. granted, i was almost done w/ high
school, but i still needed a mother. and my sister was still in junior
high at the time. and another thing that happened at the funeral was that
a friend of my sister's told her that my mother was going to burn in hell
because she didn't go to church. anyon who knew my mother would have
known that she wasa religious person, if nota church going one. we still
have those cheesy plaques in the house that have various and sundry
religious sayings on them. we were not allowed to take the Lord's name in
vain but we were free to think for ourselves concerning religion. that
REALLY pissed me off. no one can know where my mother went after she
died, and i wanted to KILL that girl for her audacity. i guess that's
enough ranting and raving for now...
natalie
From Badger01@yabbs Thu Jul 28 21:27:13 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: Chi-Rho
Date: Thu Jul 28 21:27:13 1994
Actually, I think it's AD HOC SIGNO VINCES..but who knows?
I was tripping through Latin, anyway.
Badger01
From Badger01@yabbs Thu Jul 28 21:32:56 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Religon and Homosexuality
Date: Thu Jul 28 21:32:56 1994
I've gone through the bible and read those sectioons on Homsexuality...
and you know what?
I KNOW LESS NOW THAN I DID THEN!
They talk a lot about "Unclean" and "Lying with" and stuff like that, but
they is short on actual "Don't have anal intercourse" or "Don't love in a
carnal way someone the same sex as you"...there are prohibitions against
SODOMY, yes...but Sodomy is just WHAT THEY DID IN SODOM according to the
bible...and they never tell you WHAT THEY DID IN SODOM...I assume so I
don't get any ideas.
As far as Homosexuality in the Catholic Church...if they are against it
when it happens between consenting adults...shouldn't they oppose it
between adults and children? I think they here me knocking...and I think
I'm coming in...anbd I'm bringing Father Porter's photo album with me.
Badger01
Doesn't care what anyone does as long as they don't do it to me
From Badger01@yabbs Thu Jul 28 21:35:44 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Winds of Change
Date: Thu Jul 28 21:35:44 1994
Pele makes a good point...plus:
There are Homophobics, or Homosexual phobics..and then there are the
Homosexual Haters. You know the ones...the ones who are just hoping that
they get a chance to put a few people to death because they are gay.
Usually the same ones who aren't real fond of jews, african-americans(Or
just africans either), or in fact anyone who isn't JUST LIKE THEM...which
means they hate everyone, if you get down to it.
Badger01
sees the zealots moving up the hill
From Badger01@yabbs Thu Jul 28 21:38:06 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: Just a thought
Date: Thu Jul 28 21:38:06 1994
All people are inherently evil.
Discuss amongstr yourselves (I'm getting a little Verklempt)
I'll get back to this monday ( I do believe it)
Badger01
Squashing snails with ecstasy
From sienna@yabbs Fri Jul 29 00:29:47 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: encounter
Date: Fri Jul 29 00:29:47 1994
*hug*
I love ya sis
Dee
From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 29 00:36:21 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: encounter
Date: Fri Jul 29 00:36:21 1994
That post was really inspiring. It said a lot of what I feel but never
had the brain to put into words. Thank you.
-Pele-
From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 29 00:45:33 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: Just a thought
Date: Fri Jul 29 00:45:33 1994
In message Just a thought, Badger01 said:
> All people are inherently evil.
I refuse to believe that. I will concede that all people have the
capacity for evil but I will say with equal vigor that all people have the
capacity for good. To simply say that all people are at the core evil,
defies my belief that we can ever go to Heaven (If it truly exists).
The Bible (My only real religious book of reference) states that we are
"born in sin and shaped in iniquity" and that "all are sinners." I would
not disagree with either of these statements because I simply have no
reason to. In my experience, however, every time that I begin to doubt
the entire human race (like when I was robbed, or harassed by others, or
even molested) I always would run into an indivdual who was so selfless
and loving that you could do nothing but regain your lost faith.
That's all I have to say. I believe in people. That may make me an optimist,
or even and idiot but I can't give up hope. It's the only thing that we
have been given an immeasureable amount of.
-Pele-
From Xela@yabbs Fri Jul 29 01:14:59 1994
From: Xela@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Just a thought
Date: Fri Jul 29 01:14:59 1994
Morals are abstract concepts. Man is only capable of good or bad, because
he has defined and catagorized certain behaviors into class "good" or
class "bad," and had built institutions of power to shoud those concepts.
People have no inherent nature; they are how others see them, and they
react accordingly.
My two percent of a dollar,
X
From pixy@yabbs Fri Jul 29 01:22:01 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: Winds of Change
Date: Fri Jul 29 01:22:01 1994
In message re: Winds of Change, sienna said:
> I like the way you think! *hug*
>
> Dee
>
> :)
Aw shucks! *Blush*
pixy
From pixy@yabbs Fri Jul 29 01:40:11 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: Chi-Rho
Date: Fri Jul 29 01:40:11 1994
In message re: Chi-Rho, Badger01 said:
> Actually, I think it's AD HOC SIGNO VINCES..but who knows?
That would be some seriously bastardized Latin. I think you have that
phrase confused with plain old "AD HOC", a very popular political term.
But then again, if Constantine is going to trip out in the woods all
alone, there's really no telling what he saw; he coulda seen dancing
multi-colored bears singing "Truckin'".
pixy
From Badger01@yabbs Fri Jul 29 09:25:47 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Just a thought
Date: Fri Jul 29 09:25:47 1994
The bible mentions Original sin.
Sin for something You didnn't do is on your soul.
You are inherently evil.
Badger01
From Badger01@yabbs Fri Jul 29 09:28:57 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: Chi-Rho
Date: Fri Jul 29 09:28:57 1994
Actually, I think Constatine was doing this:
Constantine: Say, Claudius?
Claudius: Yes, dread soverign?
CON: Fuck, is that a Chi-Rho up on the sun?
CLA: Sire, I don' think you should be looking at the sun...
CON: Yes...I Think it IS the Chi-Rho!
CLA: Sire...Have you been eating those bastard shrooms again?
CON: And next to the Chi-Rho...S A T U R D A Y Night....S
A T U R D A Y Night...
Maybe that is what it was like.
Badgre01
From sienna@yabbs Fri Jul 29 10:18:38 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: Chi-Rho
Date: Fri Jul 29 10:18:38 1994
Thanks, Matt, that made me laugh!
You have a wonderful sense of humor! *hug*
Dee
From alarm@yabbs Fri Jul 29 18:55:27 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: encounter
Date: Fri Jul 29 18:55:27 1994
Natalie,
I don't blame you a bit for being upset at God and especially at the
ppl at the funeral. I find that Christians are often the worst ppl to have
around at a funeral. Some of them say the stupidest things.
don't be
alarm-ed
From alarm@yabbs Fri Jul 29 19:10:55 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: Just a thought
Date: Fri Jul 29 19:10:55 1994
Badger01 said,
>The bible mentions Original sin.
Actually, it does not use the words Original sin. The word Original never
occurs in the Bible. (I looked it up in a concordance.) The concept of
original sin was thought up by theologians like Augustine. Biblically
speaking though, the Bible does say that all have sinned and come short of
the glory of God. It also says that there is none righteous, no not one.
And then of course there is the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis
committing the first sin. So, in a way, you are right, the Bible does
support your position.
Then again, I read something by William Willimon (I think) that said that
he thinks that only Christians can really sin. What he meant was that only
Christians know that they are sinning, or maybe it was that only
Christians really face God with sin, the rest of the world just sort of
goes about its own business without regard to how God is involved in their
lives, whether good or bad. Actually, I should probably read the article
again. :) I thought it was interesting.
sounding the
alarm
From Segal@yabbs Fri Jul 29 22:07:41 1994
From: Segal@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: Just a thought
Date: Fri Jul 29 22:07:41 1994
I think you misunderstand the concept of original sin. It does not
condemn you to inherent sinfulness. When man committed the first sin, ie.
eating from the Tree of Knowledge, he separated himself from God. There
was a spiritual death which the Lord warned of and the eventual physsical
death that later occured. As a result of this sin, all mankind born of
Adam's seed are born into that sin. Paul said that "We are born in sin
and shaped in iniquity."
However, you are missing a point. It is not whether or not we are sinful
that is of argument...It is whether we are evil. Evil is a concept that
not only intails committing sin but also being malicious and destructive
in committing those sins. In reality most people committ sins
without knowing that they are being sinful. I refuse to believe that all
mankind is evil. Sinful, I can agree with...but Evil denies the presence
of good and therefore there is no hope for freedom because there is an
absence of the ability to comprehend good.
So...I will revise your statement and say "Mankind is Inherently sinful."
I believe that humans have a great capacity for evil but have an equally
great capacity for good.
My $0.02
-Segal
From pixy@yabbs Sat Jul 30 03:28:03 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: Chi-Rho
Date: Sat Jul 30 03:28:03 1994
In message re: Chi-Rho, Badger01 said:
> Actually, I think Constatine was doing this:
>
> Constantine: Say, Claudius?
> Claudius: Yes, dread soverign?
> CON: Fuck, is that a Chi-Rho up on the sun?
> CLA: Sire, I don' think you should be looking at the sun...
> CON: Yes...I Think it IS the Chi-Rho!
> CLA: Sire...Have you been eating those bastard shrooms again?
> CON: And next to the Chi-Rho...S A T U R D A Y Night....S
> A T U R D A Y Night...
Well, there probalbly would've been alot more stuttering on Claudius's
part--he was famous for that. And shrooms are fine, but remember what
Olivia said in IClaudius: "Don't eat the Figs".
pixy
From pixy@yabbs Sat Jul 30 05:26:47 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: <no title>
Date: Sat Jul 30 05:26:47 1994
Uh oh! I just had another one of those random thoughts again...
I've been brooding over the number of sects christianity has. I couldn't
figure out who was right or wrong. Then it hit me while I was watching
Forrest Gump: "Interpreting the Bible is like a box of chocalates; you
never know what you're gonna get."
Okay, so the story is bogus and stupid, but that doesn't mean I haven't
made a good point. Hmmm.
pixy
From Badger01@yabbs Sat Jul 30 14:05:19 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Segal@yabbs
Subject: re: Just a thought
Date: Sat Jul 30 14:05:19 1994
Don't revise my statement. I don't believe in the bible..I was just using
it to tweak people, the way Republicans do. I truly believe that all
humanity has evil in them. I don't argue against good...I just think that
the evil will out.
Badger01
Don't trust em any further than he can throw em
From Badger01@yabbs Sat Jul 30 14:07:14 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: <no title>
Date: Sat Jul 30 14:07:14 1994
"Starting a Religon based on the teachings of a carpenters son from
Bethelehem who was hung up on a cross and who everybody who knew him
SWEARS was the Son Of God is a lot like a box of choclates....you have to
spit out the cherry nugat ones...they taste bad."
Badger01
In a Very Caramello mood
From sienna@yabbs Sat Jul 30 18:06:53 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Winds of Change III
Date: Sat Jul 30 18:06:53 1994
Talking about the rejecting-punitive idea of homosexuality and how it
relates to religion...
Nelson himself offered some interesting speculations regarding the
selective fixation on homosexuality and the highly charged anxiety and
rage that lie behind it.
for example, from a Freudian perspective (come on guys, I am a PSYCH
major, you know I had to bring this up sometime), he points out that even
people whose sex life has been exclusively heterosexual, there may be
homosexual feelings present even if relegated to an unconscious level.
Freud's own idea of reaction formation ( a defense mecahnism that enable
an individual to express an unacceptable impulse by transforming it into
its opposite) shows that one way we cope with our own unwanted impulses is
by attacking them in others.
The male-dominated tradition contains exaggerated images of masculinity
that trigger strong anxiety about homosexuality among men. Homosexuality
is viewed as unmanly. It threatens clear masculine gender identity, and
the ground rules that establish what safe and normal male feelings are
supposed to be.
Any crossing of the forbidden line unleashes feelings of high danger. The
gay male seems a threat to the importance of super-masculinity.
Many gay men refuse to give up the softer, more gentle "feminie" qualities
which macho traditions have taught are "only for women." Thus,
anthropologists have noted the strong tendency of patriarchal cultures to
define homosexuality as the "unspeakable sin," while matriarchal cultures
have an entirely different viewpoint.
In the Old Testament, there is sever condemnation of male homosexuality,
while lesbianism isn't even MENTIONED. It is only gay men who suffer the
condemnation of the Old Testament. And yet, we can hear the
rejecting-punitive message being preached from so many pulpits today.
Next thought-provoking issue I will raise will be the
rejecting-nonpunitive attitude, although it may be a while before I post
again. Comments are needed, because there is so much we still need to
learn, and I want other people to give me feedback...
Dee
From Zbadba@yabbs Sat Jul 30 23:30:51 1994
From: Zbadba@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: for the record
Date: Sat Jul 30 23:30:51 1994
Lots of messages here talking about good and evil.
Am I the only one here who doesn't believe in these concepts as absolutes?
There's a lot of sweeping statements about evil and good that make the
assumption of absolutes. Not to say belief in absolutes is "wrong" (or for
that matter, "evil"); it is the basis of many (if not most) religions. I
am just curious if anyone out there (besides myself) rejects the notion of
moral absolutes (or absolutes in general)
From Pele@yabbs Sun Jul 31 00:06:43 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Zbadba@yabbs
Subject: re: for the record
Date: Sun Jul 31 00:06:43 1994
In message for the record, Zbadba said:
> Am I the only one here who doesn't believe in these concepts as absolutes?
No..you're not. I don't think of evil or good but of the union of the two
to make a whole person. This may seem to contradict my earlier statements
concerning the matter but it really doesn't. Badger said that makind is
inherently evil (or something to that effect). I responded in kind by
saying that that is true but that it is also true that mankind is
inherently good. The two are linked very closely.
I like the concept that mankind has the eternal struggle between good and
evil throughout their lifetime but that neither is stronger than the other
and that one force will not win out over the other. It's hard to say that
a man, therefore is good, or that he is evil, just that he acts
differently than our moral standards allow.
Just a quick thought....If it was considered good to kill at least once
per day, would a person who saves another person's life be considered evil?
Hmmmmmm....Just a quick thought.
-pele-
From pixy@yabbs Sun Jul 31 02:12:47 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: <no title>
Date: Sun Jul 31 02:12:47 1994
In message re: <no title>, Badger01 said:
> "Starting a Religon based on the teachings of a carpenters son from
> Bethelehem who was hung up on a cross and who everybody who knew him
> SWEARS was the Son Of God is a lot like a box of choclates....you have to
> spit out the cherry nugat ones...they taste bad."
Yeah, and the other day one of my girlfriend's friends gave her a lecture
about the evil of adultery. My girlfriend laughed about the whole thing;
she said she was sure her friend didn't have a cherry nugat in her box of
chocalates. I looked at her confused.
But one thing i do know is that this whole Gumpmania thing is sweeping the
nation. Who needs the teachings of Jesus when we have the whimsical quotes
of a fictional man with a 75 I.Q.?
pixy
From Natalie@yabbs Sun Jul 31 08:01:46 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: <no title>
Date: Sun Jul 31 08:01:46 1994
it's cause it's such a goooooooooood movie :)
natalie
From Zbadba@yabbs Sun Jul 31 16:12:42 1994
From: Zbadba@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: for the record
Date: Sun Jul 31 16:12:42 1994
You're still bandying about thhe words "good" and "evil" without defining
them. What is good? What is evil? Who or what sets the standard?
Personally, I don't believe in good and evil, but that's just me.
From Faith@yabbs Sun Jul 31 18:22:55 1994
From: Faith@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: good...evil
Date: Sun Jul 31 18:22:55 1994
define good and evil?
Faith
From Faith@yabbs Sun Jul 31 18:30:46 1994
From: Faith@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: <no title>
Date: Sun Jul 31 18:30:46 1994
Ok, found out the editor I was using was cutting off my messages...What I
I was supposed to say was:
But can anyone define good and evil? The two are always someone's opinion
only. Otherwise we would ALL have to agree on what is good and what is
evil and I don't mean just us, I mean the entire world. That's my opinion
on it all.
Babbling on as usual ....
Faith
From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 1 00:24:13 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: live/let live
Date: Mon Aug 1 00:24:13 1994
Liked some of your ideas in this. Perhaps "Church" does make mistakes
since we are all human. The Church is Holy, but its members are often
weak and sinful. They are often good too.
Signed,
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 1 00:29:55 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: live/let live
Date: Mon Aug 1 00:29:55 1994
Some of my thoughts on personal encounters with Jesus...
Just because a person has a personal encounter with Jesus does not mean
that she/he has changed her/his lifestyle. My understanding of this
personal encounter is that it is a launching point.... The person who has
it must understand it , accept it and put it into action in their lives.
It is also a dynamic process that must be developed and nurtured.
Signed,
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 1 00:41:38 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: When good things happen....
Date: Mon Aug 1 00:41:38 1994
Natalie,
Could I suggest a short book for you to read? It has some excellent
ideas and suggestions on death/badness/misfortune. The title of the book
is, When Bad Things Happen to Good People. It is an excellent book and
provides superb solutions to issues that you described in your encounter
message.
I have been teaching religion in a high school for 14+ years and have
some ideas on what you are describing. Also, several of those years have
involved teaching a course entitled, "Death and Dying".
See what you think of this book and let me know your ideas on it.
Interested in hearing your thoughts about it.
See ya,
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 1 00:48:22 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: encounter
Date: Mon Aug 1 00:48:22 1994
Alarm-ed,
I am not sure that they really understand what they are saying and
what they mean. They are not realizing the impact of their words on the
survivors.
Usually most people say things at wakes/funerals because they think it
is the correct thing to say. Also, they may feel that they don't know
what to say and it just sounds good.....
8charact
From Natalie@yabbs Mon Aug 1 01:25:29 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: 8charact@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Mon Aug 1 01:25:29 1994
um...i've got enough books on religion to read atthe moment....i'm
minoring in it at school, my area is gnostocism and early christianity, so
i really don't have time for much else....those two bits are pretty big
areas to cover...
natalie
From Natalie@yabbs Mon Aug 1 01:28:23 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: 8charact@yabbs
Subject: re: encounter
Date: Mon Aug 1 01:28:23 1994
oh, so telling someone that their mother is in hell because she didn't go
to church is a CORRECT thing to say? i think not. when you lose a family
member suddenly you're in enough pain w/o some thoughtless, sanctimonious,
self righteous holier than thou CHILD telling you where that family member
is. the irony of it all is that my sister started going to that church
soon after. my dad went once and said it was really cultish. she goes to
another church now, but she doesn't go nearly as often. which is
good, since she doesn't practice what she preaches.
natalie
who is still a bit hostile to born again fundies
From Phreddie@yabbs Mon Aug 1 02:24:56 1994
From: Phreddie@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: More Winds of Change
Date: Mon Aug 1 02:24:56 1994
Ya know, after reading that, I think that it implies that the use of birth
control is evil.. hmm.. that doesn't seem quite right..
From pixy@yabbs Mon Aug 1 02:28:41 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: <no title>
Date: Mon Aug 1 02:28:41 1994
I sure hope Pat robertson is somewhere on this bbs, because this post is
more or less addressed to the asshole. So here it goes Pat, and I want you
to know that I'm stoned as I'm writing this you bible thumpin' sack o'
shit.
For the past few weeks the entire metro Atlanta area has suffered a
continuing onslaught of ad hoc efforts to help out, and even exploit, all
the people in southern Georgia who've become flood victims this month.
Now, of course I sympathize with their plight. I've even considered
helping them. But I still have to see some humour in the situation.
You see, anyone familiar with some of your more flighty christians--the
ones who don't laugh or get mad while watching the 700 Club--have some
strange ideas about natural disasters. If you watch the 700 Club--I watch
it every monday so that I'll be angry for the rest of the week--you know
that Pat loves to pick on poor old California every time they have a
natural disaster. He called their last earthquake and forest fire
punishment from God for all the sin that goes on out there.
Let me clarify "sin" for those of you who don't watch the 700 Club. Sin is
homosexuality; abortion; being black, hispanic, or oriental; murder--unles
the government does it; or beign a socialist. California is ripe with all
these fine hobbies, thus Pat believes that God is trying to shake some
sense into them--he either doesn't believe in or understand basic plate
tectonics.
So now I must choke back a chuckle over the flooding in South Georgia.
Maybe God feels that all those backwards religious nuts that pimple the
face of the south need good whipping. Makes me almost want to say, "Go
God!" So far, Pat hasn't seen it the same way, yet.
pixy
P.S. don't take this post too terribly serriously
From Phreddie@yabbs Mon Aug 1 02:32:44 1994
From: Phreddie@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: encounter
Date: Mon Aug 1 02:32:44 1994
ack.. majortiy of sects out there are just cults.. sure, they quote stuff
from the bible, just the parts they want.. ohwell..
Phreddie..
who susually doesn't think this deep ever
From Pele@yabbs Mon Aug 1 02:41:05 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Good vs. Evil
Date: Mon Aug 1 02:41:05 1994
The Question was asked: Can anyone define good and/or evil?
No. At least I sure as heck can't. But I know what is evil for me, and I
know what has been taught to me as good and evil. It's a personl decision
that people have to come to grips with. I have a concience and when I do
something wrong then I feel guilty. It's as simple as that. I don't
think that I am evil or that what I did was evil....
Let me start over.....
I can't define good. Because what is good for one person may be bad for
another. So...good...I can't define. Similarly I can't define bad,
because bad for one person may be good for another.
Perhaps we should look at it like this though. Intentions. Someone can
do something good with good intentions (good can be bad, like I said before).
In that case...it's good. Someone can do something bad with good intentions.
In that case, it's bad but not evil. (For example, someone tells a lie to
protect a friend...this is according to my religious beliefs and that
differs from person to person so I don't expect everyone to agree that
this is bad) Someone can do something good with bad intentions (like
freeing the slaves in order to punish the South for seceding). I'd call
this good but not "GOOD" {like holy good}. Finally, someone can do
something bad with bad intentions (like killing somebody because you like
killing) That, to me is evil.
So...in retrospect I guess I think of evil as doing something with purely
malicious intents and getting malicious results. I think a lot of people
would agree that the Holocaust (sp?) was evil or the murdering of a baby
in her sleep is evil. Philosophically it would be great to say there is
no such thing but the simple fact is, unless you are psychotic, there are
some things that are considered EVIL. My example leave a great deal of leeway
for good though. I think a lot more of it exists because we really don't
understand it. I think the main problems that we face in our society
today, ie. Drugs, Crime, AIDS, etc..all stem from the fact that we don't
want to take responsibility for our actions.
Evil does exist. No matter what it's definition we know it when we see
it. And if we don't say...that's evil when we see it, then we are going
to see things like Drugs, Crime, and AIDS and stuff.
I may just start a flame-war here but if I did. I'm sorry.
That's not my intent.
-Pele
P.S. I hope I made sense. I mean...I hope you understood what I was
trying to say.
From sienna@yabbs Mon Aug 1 03:08:35 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: 8charact@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Mon Aug 1 03:08:35 1994
Excellent book.....
from someone who knows what bad things are all about...
Dee
From sienna@yabbs Mon Aug 1 03:12:53 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Phreddie@yabbs
Subject: re: More Winds of Change
Date: Mon Aug 1 03:12:53 1994
That is what the Old Testament preached...anything which wasted the "seed"
was considered punishable by death. Of course, we know better in today's
society. Homosexuality is often condemned because it is a union incapable
of procreation. I wonder though, what about all of the millions of people
out there who are infertile and cannot have children? Their union is just
as "fruitless"...and yet the Old Testament would have us believe that they
are sinners. What gets me most about fundies (as Nat calls them) is that
theya re so quick to point out the sin yet reluctant to carry out
the punishment.
*sigh*
I have no time to write a better response. I will write more once I get
back on Yabbs in a few days...I am going to Virginia Beach for a while. So
comments are cool, I will be back in a few days to see what's being
discussed.
*hugs*
dee
From sienna@yabbs Mon Aug 1 03:25:48 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Good or Evil: Take II
Date: Mon Aug 1 03:25:48 1994
I decided to see what trusty old Webster's had to say about evil...
e-vil (ee/v'l) adj. [OE. yfel] 1. morally bad or wrong; wicked. 2.
harmful; injurious. 3. unlucky; disasterous -n. 1. wickedness; sin
2. anything causing harm, pain, etc. -e/vil-ly adv.
Hmmmmmmm........interesting.
So I decided to look up moral...
QUICK DEFINITION: 1. dealing with, or capable of, distinguishing between
right and wrong.
Hmmmmm......verrrrry interesting.
Let's look up sin....*evil grin* (looks around innocently) hehehhe
sin (sin) n. [OE. synne] 1. the willful breaking of religious or moral
law 2. any offense or fault -vi. sinned, sinning to commit a sin
-sin/ful adj. -sinner n.
Has this helped any? Geez louise people....hmmmm....Maybe this wasn't such
a good idea after all, but what they hey....*innocent smile*
I think I agree with everyone else, whatever it was that they said about
this whole good or evil does it exist debate thingy....Can you tell it is
late? My eyes are crossing...wait a sec, is that evil? ;)
Dee
From Natalie@yabbs Mon Aug 1 08:13:01 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: <no title>
Date: Mon Aug 1 08:13:01 1994
you know, i used to live down the street from pat robertson. his studios
and his lame-o university are on centerville road in virginia beach....i
usedto live just off of mount pleasant, in chesapeake, shortly AFTER it
crossed centerville...and my best friend lives on mount pleasant....
i just wanna see the 4 horsemen take over CBN one of these days...
natalie
From Badger01@yabbs Mon Aug 1 09:19:30 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Zbadba@yabbs
Subject: re: for the record
Date: Mon Aug 1 09:19:30 1994
EVIL FISH!
Sorry...I'm a little off this fine morning. Seriously, I happen to nbe one
of those Evil believers..I've seen too much of it to disbelieve in it.
Good, on the other hand, I haven't seen.
Badger01
From Badger01@yabbs Mon Aug 1 09:23:27 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Something on my mind...
Date: Mon Aug 1 09:23:27 1994
Well, this IS the Religous base, so I'm gonna tell you all about something
that happened to a fgriedn of mine
He died. He died by wrapping a bag around his head and then, when that
wasn't fast enough, he used a shotgun, and do you know what the religon he
practiced (Methodist) told me?
He's in Hell. That's what they told me, that he's in hell, that funny,
sad, alone little guy is in Hell, but because he repented, Ted Bundy
isn't.
That's all I have to say.
Badger01
From Zbadba@yabbs Mon Aug 1 15:28:14 1994
From: Zbadba@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff
Date: Mon Aug 1 15:28:14 1994
Neat responses on the "good" 'n' "evil" bit. I think Faith hit it pretty
well with the "personal decision" post. To other noteworthy tidbits:
"doing something out of malice is evil" - evil = malice. What is malice?
"I know evil exists, I've seen too much, blah blah blah" -
great platitudes, but utterly lacking substance. You avoid the question;
What is evil? (Hint: It's a trick question).
Zbadba
Who's home is back in the news again... for guess what... :(
From alarm@yabbs Mon Aug 1 19:14:06 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: 8charact@yabbs
Subject: Church
Date: Mon Aug 1 19:14:06 1994
>The Church is Holy, but its members are often weak and sinful.
I have a question, what is the Church? I have never seen a church without
members. I have seen church buildings, but I don't think that is what you
are referring to.
My own understanding is that church comes from the New Testament Greek
word ekklesia which means called out ones or gathered ones. The church is
the people who are gathered together. Thus, if you separate the people
from the church you have no church.
sounding the
alarm
From alarm@yabbs Mon Aug 1 19:23:11 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: 8charact@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Mon Aug 1 19:23:11 1994
8,
I read the book When Bad Things Happen to Good People and didn't like it.
His solution to the problem of evil was that God was too weak. I think
that's a weak solution.
The classic answers to the problem of evil have been to deny that evil
exists, or to deny that a good God exists, or to say that that God was too
weak to help us, or that God has created a universe that is best for
building character and faith and trust (so that evil has a good outcome),
or to say that God gave humanity free will and we created evil ourselves
by sinning in the garden. Although none of these solutions is completely
psychologically satisfying, the first three are lousy answers in my book.
sounding the
alarm
From Badger01@yabbs Mon Aug 1 19:26:04 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Mon Aug 1 19:26:04 1994
In Gnosticism, we believe that the reason that there is evil is that the
world was the creation of a lesser spirit, not God...and therefore the
reason that the God of teh old testament was spiteful and vengeful whereas
your new testament God was loving and caring was becaus ethey were not the
same guy..The first god was a lesser monad.
Badger01
From Hrothgar@yabbs Mon Aug 1 19:34:46 1994
From: Hrothgar@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: Ted Bundy
Date: Mon Aug 1 19:34:46 1994
I do think suicide is wrong, whether by Ziploc or Smith&Wesson. Perhaps
the methodist church has a point in saying he's going to Hell. Perhaps
Ted Bundy isn't because he repented. I guess only God knows.
I do think suicide is punishable, but to what degree? A fictional but
certainly possible story:
A priest has lived his entire life to serve God - he does whatever he
believes is right in the face of God. He serves his parishoners (sp?) and
is on 24-hour call to help whenever his help is needed. He lives a
single, pure, celibate life because he believes it will help him serve his
parish. He basically has devoted his whole life to God and his parish.
One year, for whatever reason, the church runs out of money and is forced
to shut its doors. The parishoners leave to other cities or nearby
churches. The priest is struck - all he had and worked for is gone. He
figures since God put him on Earth to serve in this church, that with the
closing of the church, his life has no meaning. The ending is obvious...
So, does he go to Hell? The priest, who wanted nothing but to serve God
through his parish, makes a final fatal error in the eyes of some. Hmmm.
As for Ted Bundy, I couldn't honestly say his repentence was genuine. But
if it was, yes (curse me now) he ought to have a place in Heaven.
cool board.
ed
From alarm@yabbs Mon Aug 1 20:01:32 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Mon Aug 1 20:01:32 1994
Your right,
I was thinking of classical Christian type answers, not Greek.
Oops, I suppose some will consider gnosticism a Christian phenomena. I
suppose loosely, mostly I think of it as a perversion of the Gospel and
the Church never accepted it. But you could argue that it did have an
influence on some orthodox thinkers.
alarm-ing aren't I.
From Pele@yabbs Tue Aug 2 00:26:51 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Zbadba@yabbs
Subject: re: good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff
Date: Tue Aug 2 00:26:51 1994
In message good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff, Zbadba said:
> "doing something out of malice is evil" - evil = malice. What is malice?
Malice? Look it up. But if you want my humble opinion. I was the one
who said that evil is doing something "BAD" (the oporative word here and
please don't ask me what bad is because I said that that differs from
person to person) with malicious intents.
Ok. So what does Malice mean? I means that the intent was to hurt or
damage the individual or individual's or things that you did the bad thing to.
This is separated from non-malicious intents by the fact that people
accidentally do harm to others.
Example for clarity: A) A driver accidentally hits an old man crossing the
street. Not evil. B) A driver swerves onto the sidewalk for the sole
purpose of hitting an old man waiting to cross the street. EVIL!
Now if this is a question of semantics..you've come to the wrong man.
-Pele-
From Pele@yabbs Tue Aug 2 00:35:57 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Hrothgar@yabbs
Subject: re: Ted Bundy
Date: Tue Aug 2 00:35:57 1994
I don't know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. No one does.
So whoever's friend who offed himself has probably just a good a chance at
getting into heaven as I do,or you do or anyone for that matter does.
The fact is..according to the Bible, only 144,000 will actually go to Heaven.
We have a misconception about the afterlife. A lot of people think of
Heaven and Hell and no inbetween. I can't ever recally coming across the
word "Hell" in the Bible. (If anyone finds it please let me know and
give me the verses so I can educate myself.) My personaly opinion is that
just as God sentence Lucifer to earth as punishment for his attempted
coup. Mankind is senteced to earth for "original sin." I think that
earth will be reborn fresh and new, like Eden in the beginning and those
who followed the laws of God will live eternally there and a chosen few,
144,000, according to Revalations, will go to Heaven with God.
I don't believe in an eternal torture chamber of fire and brimstone.
-Pele-
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 2 01:13:17 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Tue Aug 2 01:13:17 1994
ie, the goal of the gnostic is to attain gnosis and escape this lesser
world...
i really like the way in the secret book of john that there's a listing of
all the angels...that's my favorite gnostic scripture...it's gotthe
creation story in it too...
natalie
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 2 01:16:50 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Tue Aug 2 01:16:50 1994
gnosticism was a pre christian and christian sect that was wiped out by
the orthodox church by the 400's. therefore, it is NOT a perversion of
the gospel, because it's teachings existed before christianity did. i
think that there is a lot to be learned from christianity, but if i had to
choose between christianity and gnosticism, i'd pick gnosticism every
time. it makes a helluva lot more sense to me.
natalie
who likes the gnostic notion that the christian god is quite frothing
mad...cause if he's the only god, who is there to be jealous of? (ie, why
shall men make no graven images if He's the only God? that passage
suggests the existence of other Gods...)
From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 2 03:59:21 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Tue Aug 2 03:59:21 1994
I was brought up to believe that God is all powerful, and a God of Love
and Mercy. I have often wondered why He lets so many bad things happen to
so many people....anyone who knows me knows my life has been filled with
so many bad things....and I have cried out to Him in the middle of night
when I have awoken for the 100th time drenched in sweat, running from a
nightmare I can never escape...I have cried out "Why?" over and over again
while tears streamed down my face as one more person I loved and trusted
walked out of my life...and I say to Him "God, I am a good person! I have
a good heart! I try to be helpful to those around me. I try to love and
not judge. I believe you love me, but I need You to explain why You keep
letting things happen to me....Please, please, God, please...."
And as I have lain there, alone in my bed, feeling the fear of being
alone, the sting of rejection and abandonment, the darkness of depression
and the oppressiveness of nightmares, I was given one, clear thought....
First of all, God is all powerful, all knowing, and He is with us all of
the time. BUT, when God created us, He gave us a free will. God is a God
of Love not a God of prisoners. He didn't make us to mindless lemmings who
blindly mind the laws of god. God gave us a choice in what we do, and we
fell. We are imperfect, made perfect through his Holy love. And when we
follow Him as a result of a choice we made with our own free will, then
that becomes a symbol of OUR love for HIM.
That is what I cling to when the world seems to be crashing down on me.
And believe me, it seems to be crashing down on me even as I type this. I
hope that this helps someone out there...I hope I have made some kind of
sense.
*Keepin' the Faith*
Dee
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 2 08:14:29 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Tue Aug 2 08:14:29 1994
note: it's only been in the last 100 years that the christian god has
become this all forgiving santa claus type figure. in renaissance and
medieval times, he was on nasty bugger, sending forth plague, pestilence,
and lots of other fun things. and now, we get this jesus loves you shit,
and god does too. i can MAYBE buy the bit about jesus loving us, but god
is one mad dude, if you read the old testament, he was always smiting
ppl....what we need is for him to start doing that again....nail them
telelvangelists, Lord, call them home...we don't want them no more...
natalie
From Patton@yabbs Tue Aug 2 09:30:34 1994
From: Patton@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Christian numbers
Date: Tue Aug 2 09:30:34 1994
In school, I knew a guy who had a book of biblical interpretations that
corresponded things from the Old Testament and the book of Revelations
with current happenings that could signal the beginning of the Apocalypse.
Example (the creation of the European Community and its common identity
card signals the coming of the anti-christ and his placing the mark of the
beast onto his slaves). Does anyone else have any others they could
share? Just curious...
-Patton
Patton knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men...
From Badger01@yabbs Tue Aug 2 12:36:29 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Ted Bundy
Date: Tue Aug 2 12:36:29 1994
144,000? Well, there are 5 BILLION on the planbet now..and that many have
died, just about...so out of ten billion, 144,000 get in, assuming that
the entire human race died now?
Boy, makes you take a second look at Taoism, doesn't it?
Badger01
From Badger01@yabbs Tue Aug 2 12:37:55 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: Gnosis
Date: Tue Aug 2 12:37:55 1994
Yeah, that's always what has attracted me to Gnostic thought, that you CAN
achieve a kind of Salvation...The listing of the Angelic beings is
incomplete in some versions...but they make great names for characters in
fiction.
Badger01
From alarm@yabbs Tue Aug 2 13:05:14 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: 144,000
Date: Tue Aug 2 13:05:14 1994
I think we need to look at the 144,000 bit again. The Bible does not say
that, all told, only 144,000 people will get into heaven. It says that
144,000 Jews will be sealed of those who are living at the time of the
end. That means than any number of people who are not Jewish at that time
could get into heaven and any number of Jews or Gentiles could get into
heaven before that time. Besides, numbers in the book of Revelation rarely
represent a mathematical count. Apocalyptic writing uses many images,
including numbers, to convey other things besides epistemologically
verifiable events.
sounding like an
alarm
From alarm@yabbs Tue Aug 2 13:09:36 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Tue Aug 2 13:09:36 1994
Dee,
I think free will is a good choice to make.
;)
alarm
who has been forced to make a choice at one time.
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 2 13:38:43 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: 144,000
Date: Tue Aug 2 13:38:43 1994
if you're really into numerology and kabbalah and things like that, read
'foucault's pendulum' (umberto eco). it does some cool things with
numbers, changing them into things that you may not have seen before.
natalie
From Hrothgar@yabbs Tue Aug 2 15:33:01 1994
From: Hrothgar@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: 144,000
Date: Tue Aug 2 15:33:01 1994
I could reasonably agree with (was it) Pele's view on the actual number of
"heaven dwellers" being 144000. I'm no Bible Scholar, but this could be
just the count of angels and archangels. This does not mean the rest of
us will burn for eternity in the realms of Satan.
Page through Dante's Inferno if you'd like. Since Dante claims that no
one is sin-free, we all have our shortcomings, which determines our future
path. Note that several places, though not heaven, are not unpleasant by
any means, in fact one, the moral pagans' hangout, is very pleasant, one
just doesn't see the face of God, as it were.
Keep in mind this was written during a Fire-and-Brimstone era of
Christianity, so the layout may be a bit severe, but I could definitely
visualize a "layered" sort of afterlife. God knows _I_ have given in to
temptation DOZENS of times - I don't feel like one of the worthy
144-grand. On the other hand I don't think my destiny is Hell, either.
Don't take this viewpoint as my absolute belief - just food for thought...
Ed
From Zbadba@yabbs Tue Aug 2 21:53:50 1994
From: Zbadba@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff
Date: Tue Aug 2 21:53:50 1994
Your logic is recursive. Evil = Malice = Bad = Evil. What is "hurt"?
In your example, from a different perspective, you may have "helped" the
old man and his family- no costly doctor's bills, no slow and painful
death, no chronic diseases. You've just removed a drain on the resources
of the old man's family and society in general. The old man will never
again feel physical pain (excluding any sort of afterlife you may believe
in). Why is this "evil?"
From Badger01@yabbs Wed Aug 3 13:21:47 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: God and me
Date: Wed Aug 3 13:21:47 1994
I was trying, last night, as a kind of intellectual exercise, to
disbelieve in God...and I couldn't do it. The Catholic is strong in me,
and he fights and attempts to maintain himself...the furthest I can get is
adopting Gnostic christianity...and even that isn't disbelieving in God at
all, merely an alternative way to believe in him.
Is it my upbringing, a natural spirituality I can't kill in me, a hunger
for something more? I can't say.
Badger01
From Hash@yabbs Thu Aug 4 13:00:56 1994
From: Hash@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: whoopteedoo
Date: Thu Aug 4 13:00:56 1994
funny thing...my parents, although they attend a unitarian-universalist
church, have pretty much given me complete religious freedom. or atleast,
they told me i had such freedom. when i came home reading the tao te
ching and several buddhist sutras, however, they felt threatened. called
it "far-eastern religious bunk." guess that tells you how open-minded
they really were...
hash
From Hash@yabbs Thu Aug 4 13:02:05 1994
From: Hash@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: whoopteedoo
Date: Thu Aug 4 13:02:05 1994
i guess that last message was really intended for subvertus...sorry for
the confusion.
-hash
From Wraith@yabbs Thu Aug 4 14:00:07 1994
From: Wraith@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: hmm
Date: Thu Aug 4 14:00:07 1994
Regardless of various intreprations over the years, the common thread
throughout the Bible is love and redemption, especially in the O.T.
i.e.
The first promise made to man after the Fall, was a promise of
foress..
The last promise is that of eternal life and communion with a just,
loving God.
From Wraith@yabbs Thu Aug 4 14:01:11 1994
From: Wraith@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: hmm
Date: Thu Aug 4 14:01:11 1994
forgiveness even
From sienna@yabbs Thu Aug 4 14:37:24 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Religion
Date: Thu Aug 4 14:37:24 1994
Any thoughts on prayer in the schools? I feel that the State should not
have any say in this matter...it should be an individual choice on the
part of students, not the government....any thoughts on this issue?
Dee
From Hrothgar@yabbs Thu Aug 4 15:20:43 1994
From: Hrothgar@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: prayer in school
Date: Thu Aug 4 15:20:43 1994
My feeling, as a firm believer in separation of Church and state, is that
prayer should not be suppressed, yet no time (like for example a
five-minute period of silence in the morning for personal practice) should
be allotted for the church in schools. That includes of course, other
state-run institutions. This is less a moral debate and more a government
intervention. While I feel anyone should feel free to pray in school, at
work, etc, they can do it on their own time.
Pledge to the flag, however, IS not only a right of the State but IMHO a
responsibility to the people in that institution, again in school,
Congress, the Post Office, wherever. If you want to work for the state,
you should be willing to pledge your allegiance to the very symbol you
work under. Otherwise you oughtn't work there.
(of course that's opening up a whole different can o' worms)
Similarly, at a church run school (catholic prep school OR
a church-supported college) prayer ought to be allotted, or at least that
right be given the school. Since the church is supporting the
institution, it ought receive reverence from the people attending the
school.
Well, there ya have it...
Hroth
From alarm@yabbs Thu Aug 4 16:44:06 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion
Date: Thu Aug 4 16:44:06 1994
Prayer in school is ok by me.
If...
you want to pray before a test, etc.
you want to pray before you give your commencement speech.
you start your football game.
But not...
when the school (read government) says it's time to pray.
when the school says you can't start the game unless you pray.
As an individual matter the government should not regulate it either way.
Terry
From Badger01@yabbs Thu Aug 4 17:50:24 1994
From: Badger01@yabbs
To: Hrothgar@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Thu Aug 4 17:50:24 1994
It may be the Employees Duty to pledge allegiance, but why should a five
year oldf be forced to recite a loyalty oath?
Especially when they aren't old enough to trully understand what it is
they are pledging allegiance to, or why that is an important thing in your
life?
The only time that kind of pledge is meaningful is when itis meant.
Badger01
From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 4 22:35:11 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: Ted Bundy
Date: Thu Aug 4 22:35:11 1994
144,000 get in but that doesn't mean that the rest are doomed to suffer in
hell. Like I have said before. I don't believe in hell. The word is
never used in the bible and only on the day of judgement is the concept
introdueced via fire and brimstone and weeping and nashing of teeth.
What I'm trying to say is that even though only 144,000 people will
actually go to heaven, according to revalations, the rest of the people
will remain here on earth in (this is my belief, btw) a garden of Eden-type
place.
Now that, to me is something that we all can look forward to.
-Pele-
P.S. I think heaven is overrated.
From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 4 22:38:32 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: 144,000
Date: Thu Aug 4 22:38:32 1994
I've often thought the same as you have. And that particular passage is
subject to much interpretation. But in either respect, whether it is 144,000
Jews or some other number, the idea is that only a limited number of
people will actually go to heaven. I think that we should not strive to
go to heaven but to seek god and live our lives according to his will. If
we do this, and I am wrong and there is a hell I will guarantee anyone
that they wont end up there.
-Pele
From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 4 22:43:39 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Zbadba@yabbs
Subject: re: good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff
Date: Thu Aug 4 22:43:39 1994
In message re: good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff, Zbadba said:
> Your logic is recursive. Evil = Malice = Bad = Evil. What is "hurt"?
>
> In your example, from a different perspective, you may have "helped" the
> old man and his family- no costly doctor's bills, no slow and painful
> death, no chronic diseases. You've just removed a drain on the resources
> of the old man's family and society in general. The old man will never
> again feel physical pain (excluding any sort of afterlife you may believe
> in). Why is this "evil?"
We are talking about good and evil. This is a human issue not an issue of
logic. Of course my logic will be faulty. I wasn't using any! I was
trying to let you see the HUMAN side of the issue. I feel like I'm
talking to Spock or Data! I wish you luck man, 'cause if you don't think
that killing a innocent old man for the sake of killing him is evil then
you worry me. And if this is the kind of people we have living in the U.S.
it's no wonder we have Charles Mansons out there.
-Pele
From pixy@yabbs Thu Aug 4 23:48:54 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Badger01@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Thu Aug 4 23:48:54 1994
In message re: prayer in school, Badger01 said:
> It may be the Employees Duty to pledge allegiance, but why should a five
> year oldf be forced to recite a loyalty oath?
> Especially when they aren't old enough to trully understand what it is
> they are pledging allegiance to, or why that is an important thing in your
> life?
> The only time that kind of pledge is meaningful is when itis meant.
I don't really even know if it's meaningful when ones does mean it. I
think having to recite an oath in order to understand and value freedom
shows a lack of real, genuine living. Having to make any kind of
ritualistic oath reveals weakness of one's character.
pixy
From Hrothgar@yabbs Fri Aug 5 00:16:49 1994
From: Hrothgar@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Fri Aug 5 00:16:49 1994
weakness? lack of living? what are we here for? do we love our country?
do we love what principles our country stands on? don't we value our
national roots? I don't know about you all, but I stand proudly for the
Allegiance, Star Spangled Banner, and still get a tear in my eye for "God
Bless the USA." If we cannot appreciate our meaning, it ought to be
taught in school early on. Tell these kids why we pledge allegiance, what
it means to belong to the USA, and why we ought to be proud to live where
we do, with the guaranteed rights we have.
(like I said, I knew we were opening up a can of worms here!)
now about that prayer in school thing...
From sienna@yabbs Fri Aug 5 02:51:25 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff
Date: Fri Aug 5 02:51:25 1994
Couldn't have said it better myself B.!
*hug*
Dee
From Typhon@yabbs Fri Aug 5 09:58:22 1994
From: Typhon@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: Heave is overrated
Date: Fri Aug 5 09:58:22 1994
You can't bring me down. :)
Seriously...Have you checked all this with the religous hierarchy? They'd
doubtless disagree...Not that you should care.
Typhon the Usurper
From DrgnLady@yabbs Fri Aug 5 10:27:07 1994
From: DrgnLady@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: first post
Date: Fri Aug 5 10:27:07 1994
isnt the Book of Revelation a misnomer? i thought the word reveal meant to
make known.....which Revelation doesnt do at all!
scott peck, author of "The Road Less Traveled," gave the best
definition love that i've ever read: The will to extend one's self for
the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth.
of course that definition would only meaan something if you believed you
had a spirit.
From Hash@yabbs Fri Aug 5 12:36:50 1994
From: Hash@yabbs
To: Zbadba@yabbs
Subject: re: for the record
Date: Fri Aug 5 12:36:50 1994
good for you!!! (there's that word again...inescapable, i guess)
the frightning part is, whoever finally defines the words had a whole lot
of power. we've seen this from the religious right and a few other
groups.
lets not define them. or if we have to, define them for ourselves and no
one else
From alarm@yabbs Fri Aug 5 12:37:01 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: 144,000
Date: Fri Aug 5 12:37:01 1994
This probably won't do a bit of good, but look at Revelation 7:1-8. This
is talking about 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. But the interesting
thing is that in verse 9, after counting all those Jews, John says "After
this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could
count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the
throne and in front of the Lamb. . . ." They sound like they are in heaven
to me and it sounds like there are more than Jews there, and it sounds
like it must me much more than 144,000; if he could count that high, but
couldn't count the rest of the multitude.
look at the test, look at the text.
the
alarm
is ringing
From alarm@yabbs Fri Aug 5 12:44:05 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Typhon@yabbs
Subject: re: Heave is overrated
Date: Fri Aug 5 12:44:05 1994
You asked Pele,
>Have you checked all this with the religous hierarchy?
>They'd doubtless disagree...
Not necessarily. If Pele is a Jehovah's Witness the religious hierarchy is
that which taught him these limitations on the number who get to heaven.
But as far as I know they are the only ones who accept this
interpretation.
alarm,
who, btw, is a Baptist minister and aspiring theologian.
He also hawks newspapers on the corner in the mornings :)
From Hash@yabbs Fri Aug 5 17:32:59 1994
From: Hash@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Fri Aug 5 17:32:59 1994
along a different note...anyone here realize that the phrase "under god'
in the pledge was added around the 50's when mccarthyism was sweeping the
nation? it was a measure to (somehow) prevent communists from entering
our government as they were atheists and therefore couldnt say the pledge.
the logic is infalliable, of course. now, why do so many people have
ovjections to taking those two little words out?
bewildered,
hash
From Natalie@yabbs Fri Aug 5 22:22:36 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: DrgnLady@yabbs
Subject: re: first post
Date: Fri Aug 5 22:22:36 1994
the best definiton of love i've ever read is this:
"love does not consist in gazing at each other but in looking outward in
the same direction" antoine de st. exupery
it goes something like that, it's been years since i've read le petit
prince
natalie
From Natalie@yabbs Fri Aug 5 22:24:53 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: Heave is overrated
Date: Fri Aug 5 22:24:53 1994
something i never understood about jehovah's witnesses (and perhaps
someone could clear this up for me) is why don'tthey celebrate any holiday
other than the death of jesus? this is what i've been told anyhow...and i
remember a girl who was a jehovah's witness in my jr high never getting to
go to any pep assemblies and she didn't have to say the pledge, while the
rest of us were forced to...of course, i stopped saying it in high
school...oh, everyone hated me for that one...
natalie
From Pele@yabbs Sat Aug 6 01:57:29 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Typhon@yabbs
Subject: re: Heave is overrated
Date: Sat Aug 6 01:57:29 1994
In message Heave is overrated, Typhon said:
> Seriously...Have you checked all this with the religous hierarchy? They'd
> doubtless disagree...Not that you should care.
You're absolutely right they disagree and you're absolutely right I don't
care. I never claimed to agree with the Catholic church or any church for
that matter. I don't represent any particular denomination of Christianity.
Throughout my life I have searched for the answers to the meaning of life.
I may not have the right answers and I'm not sure that anyone does. But
the answers I have found are ones that give me comfort in this life. I
feel assured that I can die at any time. I am a good person. I'm not
holy, mind you but I'm a good person. Like any human, I sin and I believe
that God knows that I sin and will sin. I like to believe that God is
more concerned with my intents that with my actions.
Woops...started babbling again and off the subject. My basic thing? I
believe that heaven is a place for those "holy people" and the rest is for
people like me.
-pele-
From Pele@yabbs Sat Aug 6 02:02:30 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: 144,000
Date: Sat Aug 6 02:02:30 1994
In message re: 144,000, alarm said:
> This probably won't do a bit of good, but look at Revelation 7:1-8.
Actually, friend it did a lot of good. Thanx. Don't ever think that
reeducating me or making me look at something from a different point of
view won't stop to make me think. I'm not sure if all those people are
going to heaven or not but I sure won't discount that possiblity. And if
heaven is the way I hope it is (someplace where I feel at peace for a change)
then I sure hope that I'm amoung the people who end up there!
Like I said. Thank you :)
-Pele-
From Pele@yabbs Sat Aug 6 02:05:05 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: For the Record
Date: Sat Aug 6 02:05:05 1994
I do not subscribe to any particular denomination. I am not a Jehovah's
Witness. I read the Bible and subject it to my own interpretations.
Right or wrong. If someone has a different opinion to mine and I hear it
and I agree with it, then I can reevaluate my beliefs.
That's it.
-Pele-
From sienna@yabbs Sat Aug 6 03:23:51 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: first post
Date: Sat Aug 6 03:23:51 1994
I love Antoine...(see my plan file)...
Fave quote by him is "It is only with the heart that one may see rightly;
what is essential is invisible to the eye..."
Awesome awesome awesome!
BTW: I had a nice trip, thanks go out to all those who wished me well. I
am back home now...*sob* The ocean was wonderful...
*hugs*
dee
From alarm@yabbs Sat Aug 6 08:43:49 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: For the Record
Date: Sat Aug 6 08:43:49 1994
Pele,
I really didn't mean to call you a Jehovah's Witness, it is just that
your particular view of the 144,000 was like thier view, that's all I was
saying. I'm glad that you are out there reading the word for yourself.
Also, the reason I said that I thought my comment earlier would not do
any good was because I don't think arguing is a way of convincing
anyone anything, and I felt like my comment was leading in that
direction.
good providence to you,
alarm
From alarm@yabbs Sat Aug 6 08:51:54 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: Heave is overrated
Date: Sat Aug 6 08:51:54 1994
Actually I'm not sure why the JW's don't celebrate anything, I'm not an
expert on their religion. But I think that it has to do with their view on
separation. They do not participate in state sanctioned events like
holidays (any of them), they do not join the military, etc. They do not
say the pledge because it is, in their interp. (again I think, not know)
forbidden by Jesus when he said not to swear an oath. They are actually
very legalistic in thier religious convictions.
Jesus said, I have come to set you free.
Again, the scriptures say, If the son sets you free you are free indeed.
Freedom in Christ is a big deal to the apostle Paul.
alarm
From balistic@yabbs Sat Aug 6 15:13:09 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Ted Bundy
Date: Sat Aug 6 15:13:09 1994
heaven is a video arcade :)
From Pele@yabbs Sat Aug 6 21:29:01 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: natalie@yabbs
Subject: why JW's don't celebrate
Date: Sat Aug 6 21:29:01 1994
Another reason, I think, has to do with Jesus saying that we should not
celebrate his birth but his death.
From Phreddie@yabbs Mon Aug 8 02:48:07 1994
From: Phreddie@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: More Winds of Change
Date: Mon Aug 8 02:48:07 1994
hehe.. I agree copmletely.. the Bible doesn't cover everything .. I mean
seriously, that would imply that someone who was born infertile is a
sinner because of his/her inaiblity to reproduce..
Well, I just say believe in what you want, and if someone comes in and
knocks you for what you think, then politely tell them to insert a long
adn pointed wooden stick into their nether regions and to stab
repeatedly..
From Phreddie@yabbs Mon Aug 8 02:51:41 1994
From: Phreddie@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: Ted Bundy
Date: Mon Aug 8 02:51:41 1994
So basically you're saying that out of the billions and trillions even of
people that have existed on this earth, only 144,000 select elite few will
make it to Heaven? that sounds like it sucks..
From sienna@yabbs Mon Aug 8 04:33:46 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Phreddie@yabbs
Subject: re: More Winds of Change
Date: Mon Aug 8 04:33:46 1994
Thanks for commenting....I agree completely!
hehehe......
Dee
From Hrothgar@yabbs Mon Aug 8 11:36:07 1994
From: Hrothgar@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: Arcadia?
Date: Mon Aug 8 11:36:07 1994
In message re: Ted Bundy balistic wrote:
>heaven is a video arcade :)
hey, balistic, can I borrow a quarter?
H
From balistic@yabbs Mon Aug 8 16:03:53 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: life
Date: Mon Aug 8 16:03:53 1994
Life suxs, then you die, then the afterlife sucks, then you die, then the
after afterlife sux, etc...
:)
From balistic@yabbs Mon Aug 8 16:04:42 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: Hrothgar@yabbs
Subject: re: Arcadia?
Date: Mon Aug 8 16:04:42 1994
hehheh...I'll trade ya 3 for a dollar :)
From Hrothgar@yabbs Mon Aug 8 17:35:24 1994
From: Hrothgar@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: Arcadia
Date: Mon Aug 8 17:35:24 1994
sure thing, balistic...
*hands balistic 3 quarters and grabs a dollar from his wallet*
From pixy@yabbs Tue Aug 9 02:19:24 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Hrothgar@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Tue Aug 9 02:19:24 1994
In message re: prayer in school, Hrothgar said:
> weakness? lack of living? what are we here for? do we love our country?
> do we love what principles our country stands on? don't we value our
> national roots? I don't know about you all, but I stand proudly for the
> Allegiance, Star Spangled Banner, and still get a tear in my eye for "God
> Bless the USA." If we cannot appreciate our meaning, it ought to be
> taught in school early on. Tell these kids why we pledge allegiance, what
> it means to belong to the USA, and why we ought to be proud to live where
> we do, with the guaranteed rights we have.
> (like I said, I knew we were opening up a can of worms here!)
> now about that prayer in school thing...
(Pixy returns from vomiting in order to reply)
Is this for real? I'll assume it is for entertainment purposes.
I'll tell you what we're here for, and it sure isn't Betsy Ross's sewing.
The overwhelming majoriyt of us are here because that's where we were
born--that's boring. Let's think about why immigrants are here instead.
1. More freedom
2. Escaping another government
3. Other stuff I don't care to list.
No where on my list is: we have a nice flag or wee have a cool pledge. Who
needs it. My point--you obviously missed it--is simple: you shouldn't need
a flag or a pledge in order to value freedom. And I'll walk out of Waffle
House if someone plays "God Bless the USA".
Now for some of those irrelevant worms you got into...
You mentioned the values that America was founded on. Let me address that
by saying you forgot to mention that those values were greed and
racism and speculation. If you don't believe me, ask some Indians, blacks,
irish, and chinese among others.
And you also mentioned something about the freedoms we have as americans
at the end of your post. Well, if you'd quit your flag-worship, you might
notice how quickly our freedoms are getting sucked up by the government.
The 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th are all suffering severe attacks from the
government and the people of america. Screw the flag and the pledge, I
want people to respect the constitution.
And don't get me started on school prayer, pal.
pixy
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 9 03:10:09 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Tue Aug 9 03:10:09 1994
very well said pixy...i couldn't have said it better myself...
hey, since i'm irish american, does that mean i'm oppressed?
*smirk*
natalie
From kke@yabbs Tue Aug 9 03:58:15 1994
From: kke@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: re: Ted Bundy
Date: Tue Aug 9 03:58:15 1994
> heaven is a video arcade :)
"heaven is a truck, it got stuck on a freeway"
Killer Keebler Elf
Belch if you're sober
From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 9 11:19:21 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Tue Aug 9 11:19:21 1994
Hey Nat-bug! I am Irish-American too hehehehe We BOTH are potato farmer
wanna-be's........NOT!
*hug*
Dee
From balistic@yabbs Tue Aug 9 15:15:16 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: Hrothgar@yabbs
Subject: re: Arcadia
Date: Tue Aug 9 15:15:16 1994
ballistic performs a decapitation fatality on hrothgar :)
From balistic@yabbs Tue Aug 9 15:17:00 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Tue Aug 9 15:17:00 1994
"your own, personal, Jesus, some one to be oppressed..."
From balistic@yabbs Tue Aug 9 15:18:01 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: kke@yabbs
Subject: re: Ted Bundy
Date: Tue Aug 9 15:18:01 1994
hmmmmmmmmm
a truck full of video games....yeah I'd go for that :)
From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 9 16:59:51 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Tue Aug 9 16:59:51 1994
Good tune, and I can dance to it...I give it a 7.....hehehe
From Hrothgar@yabbs Tue Aug 9 18:56:01 1994
From: Hrothgar@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Tue Aug 9 18:56:01 1994
ok ok ok, maybe my thoughts are a bit nationalistic and idealistic, but,
as a military guy, I take those things very seriously and very personally.
No, I don't think saluting the flag (or pledging ineveryone else's case)
is just revering a bunch of cloth. Relating this to religious issues,
it's kinda like trans-substantiaition, for all you Catholics out there.
Once a flag is made, it's no longer just a colored cloth, it symbolizes
America. And yes, some of you don't have the highest views on why most of
us are here and the values this country was based on, but face it - this
country is a bastion of hope for the entire world. People save money
their entire lives, not to come here, but just to send ONE child here, so
that maybe he or she can have a better life than they. That's not some
idealistic propaganda I whipped up in my sleep one night, that's the way
it is, and has been for over two centuries.
Before you all continue to bash me and the country I have pledged to die
for, think about what this country means to you, and if you feel this
country, and everything that symbolizes America and it's freedom (the
flag, Statue of Liberty, even a baseball or a dollar bill), does not
represent the most free, democratic, and well-governed nation in the
world, then spend your life saving money so that YOUR child can live
somewhere that's better.
Thank you, I will step down from my soap box and speak no more...
Hroth
From dmonger@yabbs Tue Aug 9 19:54:58 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: Hrothgar@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Tue Aug 9 19:54:58 1994
love it or leave it ... blah
i think its nice that you want to serve the country and that you are willing to
protect it. congratulations.
but the argument that if i don't think this is the best country i should live
in that i should get out is pure bullshit ... if you think that's what this
country is about maybe you should go find another one.
-peter
From Zbadba@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:28:16 1994
From: Zbadba@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: more stuff.
Date: Tue Aug 9 23:28:16 1994
Pele: Call me sick. ok. I don't personally believe you know what it is to
be insane. There's nothing "bad" about it. It's just seeing the world from
a different perspective - a perspective you are taught not to accept.
Hrothgar: much as I disagree with you, I respect your attitude re. the
flag, pledge, et al. However, I think there is a glaring contradiction in
your stand towards requiring things like the pledge, respect for the flag,
etc. - the constitution was written in part to protect the US from
slipping into gross nationalism. When you start requiring things like the
pledge of alleigance in schools, etc. you take a big step towards
dismantling the very things the flag and the pledge represent: liberty and
justice for all (even those who disagree).
From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:30:39 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: studies...
Date: Tue Aug 9 23:30:39 1994
Natalie,
Sounds interesting....
I did my graduate studies at the University of Toronto and spent a
good amount of time studying Early Christianity. I'm a bit rusty on the
subject NOW. I've been teaching HS religion which doesn't deal much with
these areas.
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:34:17 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: encounter/reply
Date: Tue Aug 9 23:34:17 1994
Natalie,
I never meant to say/imply that was correct!?? (about someone saying
that....if you don't go to church you'll go to hell) Seems we got our
connections crossed!?
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:38:17 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Tue Aug 9 23:38:17 1994
Dee,
I've always found that book to be the best on the subject.
Did you take your computer on-line name from Catherine of Sienna?
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:43:49 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: Church continued.....
Date: Tue Aug 9 23:43:49 1994
Alarm,
Church=all people who are believers, together HOLY.
Members=all individuals who on occassion sin but do not make the whole
Church sinful...
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:47:32 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: When good....continued
Date: Tue Aug 9 23:47:32 1994
alarm,
I think if you reread the book, you'll find that God is not portrayed
as weak and that the author is trying to create a vision of God that takes
him/her out of the classical image.
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:53:42 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: when good things...diddo
Date: Tue Aug 9 23:53:42 1994
Dee,
I liked what you wrote to 'alarm'. Good points. :-)
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:55:57 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: 144,000
Date: Tue Aug 9 23:55:57 1994
alarm,
Good point about 144,000.
8charact
From Pele@yabbs Wed Aug 10 00:21:22 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Zbadba@yabbs
Subject: insanity
Date: Wed Aug 10 00:21:22 1994
Insanity does not preclude evil.
From pixy@yabbs Wed Aug 10 01:17:38 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Wed Aug 10 01:17:38 1994
In message re: prayer in school, Natalie said:
> hey, since i'm irish american, does that mean i'm oppressed?
No, Gone With The Wind was the last documented evidence of Irish
oppression in the 20th century. I'm happy to say, on behalf of Hibernian
descendants everywhere, that we are now "mainstream".
pixy
From pixy@yabbs Wed Aug 10 01:25:39 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Hrothgar@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Wed Aug 10 01:25:39 1994
Call me a perfectionist, but I'd still like to change a large number of
things.
And the old "Love it or leave it mentality" is one of the most
undemocratic one's around--I cringe every time a "patriotic" person uses
it. Who ever thought that any participant in a democratic form of
government would espouse such a mentality?
pixy
From sienna@yabbs Wed Aug 10 08:38:34 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Hrothgar@yabbs
Subject: re: prayer in school
Date: Wed Aug 10 08:38:34 1994
*hug*
Dee
From sienna@yabbs Wed Aug 10 08:41:04 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: 8charact@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Wed Aug 10 08:41:04 1994
No, Sienna has a personal meaning for me, and another reason I chose it is
that it is a city in Italy....besides I thought it was
beautiful...although from time to time I get asked if I am black because
the name means burnt brown....sadly, I am Irish therefore have barely any
pigmentation....*sigh*
Dee
From sienna@yabbs Wed Aug 10 08:41:59 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: insanity
Date: Wed Aug 10 08:41:59 1994
I'm insane.....does that mean I am evil?
;)
Dee
From dmonger@yabbs Wed Aug 10 10:07:20 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: When good things happen....
Date: Wed Aug 10 10:07:20 1994
yeah, i'm irish too ... and hungarian
makes for an interesting combination of skin colors when i get tan :)
-peter
who thinks he'd look funny if he had red hair and freckles to go with his tan
From dmonger@yabbs Wed Aug 10 10:07:45 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: insanity
Date: Wed Aug 10 10:07:45 1994
if it does then Nat and I are in rillie big trouble
-peter
From balistic@yabbs Wed Aug 10 13:36:23 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: :)
Date: Wed Aug 10 13:36:23 1994
From balistic@yabbs Wed Aug 10 13:40:19 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re:the east
Date: Wed Aug 10 13:40:19 1994
Anyone here ever read the Tao? Not really a religeous book as it is a
guide to life....It makes some good observations.....Although it's not
always translated that well :)
balistic
s
From balistic@yabbs Wed Aug 10 13:44:00 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: insanity
Date: Wed Aug 10 13:44:00 1994
No...just means you're fun to be around :)
From sienna@yabbs Wed Aug 10 16:21:08 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: re: insanity
Date: Wed Aug 10 16:21:08 1994
There are those who would argue with you that I am NOT fun to be
around...but hey, I think I am quite fun (I even talk to myself!)
;)
Dee======> a sarcastic yet loveable warm fuzzie :)
From Deluge@yabbs Wed Aug 10 17:27:58 1994
From: Deluge@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: re: re:the east
Date: Wed Aug 10 17:27:58 1994
If you want a really good book on Tao to read try Taoism: the road to
immortality...very good!
From Natalie@yabbs Wed Aug 10 20:24:32 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: dmonger@yabbs
Subject: re: insanity
Date: Wed Aug 10 20:24:32 1994
uh huh. we are frothing mad, you know. how's ferdinand and luthor doing,
peter? my voices seem to be coming back a bit, i'm usre they'll beback in
full force once school starts...hopefully they won'ttell me to kill anyone
this year...that's the only thing i'm really scared of, that they'll want
me to kill my roommate...cause i LIKE my roomate, darn it...
natalie
From balistic@yabbs Wed Aug 10 20:58:47 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: insanity
Date: Wed Aug 10 20:58:47 1994
oohhhh...fuzzies are neat.......oops...gotta go put tapioca in the toilet
and let fluffy go fer a swim....I'm not insane....really.......I didn't
have my hamster in the blender, honest....he LIKES to sleep there...
:-)
balistic
From balistic@yabbs Wed Aug 10 20:59:11 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: Deluge@yabbs
Subject: re: re:the east
Date: Wed Aug 10 20:59:11 1994
I'll try it
From sienna@yabbs Wed Aug 10 20:59:17 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Peck
Date: Wed Aug 10 20:59:17 1994
Has anyone read "The Road Less Travelled?"
Just wondering....
Dee
From Hrothgar@yabbs Wed Aug 10 21:38:24 1994
From: Hrothgar@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: Peck
Date: Wed Aug 10 21:38:24 1994
yuppers, sure have. have you read the other books by him? there's a
whole series.
Hrothgar
From Pele@yabbs Wed Aug 10 22:33:29 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: insanity
Date: Wed Aug 10 22:33:29 1994
In message re: insanity, sienna said:
> I'm insane.....does that mean I am evil?
Of course not! :) You're just strange. :)
*Hugs*
*hugfromzippo*
-Brian
From Typhon@yabbs Thu Aug 11 13:02:37 1994
From: Typhon@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Observations
Date: Thu Aug 11 13:02:37 1994
As someone who IS insane, and evil, and who has read several versions of
the Tao, here are my observations:
Insanity is a very difficult thing to judge...as it is mostly perceptual.
The Greeks thought a belief in an immortal soul was insane. The Aztecs
though that stopping the blood sacrifices woiuld being about the end of
the world...therefore, the Conquistadors were insane.
As a human being who has embraced his evil, I say that it isn't so bad.
Just control it, and only allow what Nietzche called "Tigereish lust for
cruelty" to get out at your enemies, whoever they may be. Choose them
well, BTW. You are defined by who you love, and who you hate.
The Tao is onl;y truly held by not holding it..it unifies us, but the more
I talk about it, the less I have it. Soi I'll stop now.
Typhon the Usurper
Not a religour post, but close.
From sienna@yabbs Thu Aug 11 14:25:54 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Hrothgar@yabbs
Subject: re: Peck
Date: Thu Aug 11 14:25:54 1994
I started to read it but I couldnt concentrate on it....pretty chaotic
time of my life...I suppose I should try to read it again. *sigh*
Dee
From sienna@yabbs Thu Aug 11 14:26:27 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: insanity
Date: Thu Aug 11 14:26:27 1994
*hughughughughughughug*
Tell Zippo his is coming *smirk*
Dee
From 8charact@yabbs Thu Aug 11 23:04:48 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: Sienna@yabbs
Subject: Cont. with previous posting
Date: Thu Aug 11 23:04:48 1994
Sienna,
I lost your previous postings on this board! Dumb I guess?! We and
others were discussing 'When Bad Things Happen...' Remember what you said
before?
8charact
From laelth@yabbs Fri Aug 12 01:12:38 1994
From: laelth@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: Eastern Religions
Date: Fri Aug 12 01:12:38 1994
I've got several friends that are really into Eastern religions.
I'm personally attracted to the teachings of Kung Fu Tse.
Nevertheless, I'm skeptical of the Western desire to turn to the
East for answers. The fact is that we are Western. We think in
Western languages, and as hard as we may try on an individual level
to become more "Eastern" this may be an almost impossible goal for
us to attain, for invariably we will "Westernize" any Eastern religion
that we encounter and pervert it's original meaning and value. This is
a typical, and perhaps inevitable result of our Western need to colonize
and conquer all that we encounter. In many ways, we can't help it.
Ugly or not, it's who we are. Perhaps we would be happier if we tried
harder to be content with who we are ... fully Western. Perhaps we should
be looking within ourselves for answers, rather than looking outward to
another culture. But, then again, we're Westerners, and looking outward
is what we do best. That's what we are ...
Paradoxically,
-laelth
From 8charact@yabbs Fri Aug 12 01:20:11 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: laelth@yabbs
Subject: re: Eastern Religions
Date: Fri Aug 12 01:20:11 1994
To Laelth
I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Can't become what you are not. We were brought up in a Western
culture. How can we become Eastern?? Impossible. All we can do is to
Westernize an Eastern religion thereby distorting it.
8charact
From Xela@yabbs Fri Aug 12 03:30:44 1994
From: Xela@yabbs
To: laelth@yabbs
Subject: re: Eastern Religions
Date: Fri Aug 12 03:30:44 1994
"..and perhaps inevitable result of our Western need to colonize and
conquer all that we encounter..."
Bullshit. The East has done its share of rape and pillage. As far as
politics and the enslavement of people, Western and Eastern cultures share
equal guilt. Stop romanticizing mysticism just because its mystic.
X
From BLynch@yabbs Fri Aug 12 04:37:21 1994
From: BLynch@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: re: re:the east
Date: Fri Aug 12 04:37:21 1994
<cough, cough, COUGH> the tao isn't really a religous book as it is a
guide to life. ok, let me just sit back for a couple of seconds there and
think about that statement. you should too. later.
From DrgnLady@yabbs Fri Aug 12 17:06:08 1994
From: DrgnLady@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: Peck
Date: Fri Aug 12 17:06:08 1994
i have
s
From sienna@yabbs Fri Aug 12 17:09:12 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: DrgnLady@yabbs
Subject: re: Peck
Date: Fri Aug 12 17:09:12 1994
Gee that was..um...informative.
Dee
From sienna@yabbs Fri Aug 12 17:16:27 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: I'm leaving
Date: Fri Aug 12 17:16:27 1994
Just a quick note to tell everyone that I am leaving for college on August
26...I am not sure if I will have interent access...so for those who did
not see the posts I left in Social Misfits and Poetry, if you want to keep
in touch email me either on here or at callahdm@ucunix.san.uc.edu and give
me your address.
School address for me is:
Dee Callahan
Ashland University
Box 162
Ashland, Ohio 44805-3700
Be hearing from you all I hope!
*Hug*
Dee
From balistic@yabbs Fri Aug 12 19:52:35 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: laelth@yabbs
Subject: re: Eastern Religions
Date: Fri Aug 12 19:52:35 1994
I'm not really a religeous guy (then what am I doing on this thread! :)
) but I feel that true faith comes from within, some times with some
outside help. I was introduced to the Tao while studying shaolin kung-fu
and I kind of got addicted to it. I'd read a page everyday, afterwards
I'd sort of medidtate about that page and try to think how it might apply
to me. To me the Tao is not a religeous book, it's more of a book of
common sense. Being the scientific type it's hard for me to accept a
religeon, Thus, again I look at the Tao. The Tao speaks nothing of the
afterlife or the gods, so it is easier for me to reflrct on than, say,
christianity. The eastern philosophy of Tao is my choice, and I feel
comfortable with it. To me that's what a religeon should be. . .
P.S. has anyone seen that ripoff of a network, TBN? Man what a scam.
balistic
From balistic@yabbs Fri Aug 12 19:54:43 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: BLynch@yabbs
Subject: re: re:the east
Date: Fri Aug 12 19:54:43 1994
Okay Okay...poor choice of words...check out my previous post
later
balistic
From 8charact@yabbs Fri Aug 12 23:29:32 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: Xela@yabbs
Subject: Mysticism
Date: Fri Aug 12 23:29:32 1994
Xela,
Mysticism is not just Eastern, it has a Western religious dimension.
Its tradition is very rich and interesting. Itprovides a very unique view
of Western Religious tradition.
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Fri Aug 12 23:34:13 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: Goodbye
Date: Fri Aug 12 23:34:13 1994
Dee,
Its been interesting talking with you on this message board. Hope
school goes well and that the prof.'/courses are good!
Peace!
Dave (alias 8charact)
From BLynch@yabbs Sat Aug 13 01:00:52 1994
From: BLynch@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: re: re:the east
Date: Sat Aug 13 01:00:52 1994
i just read it, and i get your point, but just for the sake of argument
(which i don't really want to do) the bible is "common sense" to some
people (maybe too many). well, i've said my part. you may react as you
wish. later.
From sienna@yabbs Sat Aug 13 03:32:14 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: 8charact@yabbs
Subject: re: Goodbye
Date: Sat Aug 13 03:32:14 1994
Thanks...I expect it to be a blast!
I have to take a religion course to fulfill my University requirements...I
think it is called Exploring the Bible...outta be interesting
*hugs*
Dee
From Natalie@yabbs Sat Aug 13 14:03:42 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: Goodbye
Date: Sat Aug 13 14:03:42 1994
speaking of religion classes, i'm going to KILL someone at wmu...i signed
up for intro to religion, right? i figured it'd be a nice hodge podge of
everything...well, i was in kzoo the other day and i looked at the books
for the calss, and it's all eastern and african religions...I AM
PISSED...not that it's eastern and african religions, but for the fact
that islam, judaism, and christianity aren't going to be represented in
this class....granted, most ppl know about those religions, but it is an
intro to RELIGION class, not and intro to non western religion or
something like that....blah...just what i need, more multiculturalism
shoved down my throat....as if the english department wasn't bad
enough...luckily, the history dept. has yet to succumb the the blight
known as PC...
natalie
From sienna@yabbs Sat Aug 13 20:32:35 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: Goodbye
Date: Sat Aug 13 20:32:35 1994
I have no clue what my class is going to be like, but I'll be sure to keep
you posted!
*hug*
Dee
From balistic@yabbs Sat Aug 13 22:26:09 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: BLynch@yabbs
Subject: re: re:the east
Date: Sat Aug 13 22:26:09 1994
Like I said, a religeon should be whatever you feel comfortable with.
later
balistic
From laelth@yabbs Sun Aug 14 00:15:38 1994
From: laelth@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: Science
Date: Sun Aug 14 00:15:38 1994
Part of your difficulty accepting religion may stem from the fact that
science, itself, IS a religion. Consider that it has its sacred texts,
its priests, and its method (ritual). It's taught in the schools, like
religion used to be. It's used as "proof" of reality, like Christians use
the Bible as "proof." Science has every characteristic of a religion, and
for a while it was the dominant religion of the Western world, as
Nietzsche demonstrated. But Nietzsche also said that science would
collapse on itself and lead to nihilism. Look around you. Nihilism is
everywhere.
-laelth
From laelth@yabbs Sun Aug 14 00:49:07 1994
From: laelth@yabbs
To: Xela@yabbs
Subject: re: Eastern Religions
Date: Sun Aug 14 00:49:07 1994
In message 237 xela said:
"Stop romanticizing mysticism just because it's mystic."
In no way did I intend to romanticize mysticism. I said that I felt
attracted to the teachings of Kung Fu Tse, but there's nothing mystical
about that. Kung Fu Tse is practical, political, and very realistic.
He's not a mystic at all. What I was trying to say is that it may be
impossible for Westerners to understand Eastern Mysticism. We can only
understand the world through our own symbolic systems, and Eastern
religions spring out of very different patterns of thought than those that
we Westerners employ.
Xela also said:
"The East has done its share of rape and pillage."
I don't deny this claim, but that does not refute the fact that
Western civilization has been characterized by the need to expand and
conquer other peoples and lands. Take the English, for example, who began
as a wandering barbarian tribe in Central Europe, moved to Northern
Europe, then to England, then to Ireland, then to the US, then to
Australia, Africa, India, etc. We even put our flag on the moon, like we
had colonized it, as if we owned it! My point was that this trend is part
of what it means to be us. And we do it not only with land and property,
but with ideas. We find, capture, and transform everything that we
encounter. This is bound to be the case with Eastern religions as well.
We cannot"think" in the way that an Eastern religion would require. Thus,
we are doomed to mutate Eastern mysticism into something that it wasn't
intended to be. Thus my skepticism about the Western desire to turn to
Eastern religions for answers.
-laelth
From Xela@yabbs Sun Aug 14 01:10:09 1994
From: Xela@yabbs
To: laelth@yabbs
Subject: re: Eastern Religions
Date: Sun Aug 14 01:10:09 1994
I still do not agree that only Westerners have a historical basis for
divide and conquer. When you agreed with me that "the East has done its
share of rape and pillage," you didn't sound convinced because you then
showed how only the Westerners have had a colonial mindset, while ignoring
the dynastial wars of the East; remember the Mongols?
While both the East and West have the thesis and antithesis approach
towards symbolic systems and understanding reality, that does not deny the
historical reality that both have shed blood for power (money, land,
title, etc.) and continue to do so. The whole recorded history of man has
been the changing hands of power between men (both East and West) playing
finite games.
When the West turns to the East for answers, it involves mystic
interpretations because the Western mind is growing tired of "reason" (as
defined by western philosophers) and is turning to "new age" theories of
reality. As this is mostly a yuppie phenomena, I wouldn't worry too much
about it. :)
Sorry for the angered post earlier, that was uncalled for and ignorant to
say the least. Just wanted to apologize publicly.
X
From laelth@yabbs Sun Aug 14 01:14:54 1994
From: laelth@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: PC
Date: Sun Aug 14 01:14:54 1994
In message 248 Natalie referred to "the blight known as PC ..."
First off, let me say that I hate the term PC. Some neo-nazi ideologue
came up with that term in order to give some liberal college professors a
bad name, and to degrade their thinking, their teaching, and their
argumentation. And it worked ... too well.
But since we have no other way to "name" this phenomenon, then we might as
well call it PC, just so that we can communicate. Basically, being PC
means standing up for all the traditionally oppressed groups in our world
and in our society. It means defending the rights of women, of
minorities, of gays, of people with AIDS, people with disabilities, etc.
Is that such a bad thing?
Of course, most of the attacks against political correctness are masked
under the guise of protecting freedom of speech. But let's face it, the
PC people are liberals. They'll defend your right to say and to think
whatever you want. But what they won't defend is your continuing to
exploit and oppress the weaker members of our society. I believe that
NAZIs have every right to pass out their literature, parade, and get
attention in any legal way, but I cannot condone racist ACTS. No more
lynchings!
It's very easy in our current political climate to be very anti-PC. But I
ask you to consider that being anti-PC (for many) means being anti-women,
anti-minorities, anti-gay, and a lot of other ugly things. Is that really
what you want to be? I mean really, who's the victim here? Is it the
poor college student who's challenged by a liberal professor? Or is it
women who are raped, African-Americans who are denied quality education,
gays who are beaten just for being gay, Jews who were gassed by the
millions this century? At whom do you want to be angry?
-laelth (a PC prophet)
From Natalie@yabbs Sun Aug 14 08:14:32 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: laelth@yabbs
Subject: re: PC
Date: Sun Aug 14 08:14:32 1994
i'm sorry, but i'm not goingto change the way i speak just so someone's
feelings don'tget hurt. for example, i have an aunt. she's retarded.
she is NOT mentally challenged. she is retarded. there is no challenge
there because she does not have the mental faculties to succeed. i will
not call black ppl african american because, dammit, they're americans. i
don't go around insisting that i be called european american, do i? no, i
don't. and in no way am i anti-gay. i am very offended that you even
INSINUATED that about me. i happen to be bisexual, and while i'm not a
political person (a fact that got me in trouble more time than i can count
in my gay/lesbian lit class last winter), i still don't like the idea that
i can lose my job just cause ihappen to think girls are cool too. and
just one more thing. i think thata lot of feminists are anti-woman. by
being anti-man, they are also being anti-woman. all men are NOT pigs, and
women have to get some common sense. you can't go walking around by
yourself in the middle of the night and expect to be ok...in an ideal
world, ok, but this is NOT an ideal world...feminists have practically
brainwashed young women of today into thinking these things, so they go to
do things that are dangerous and then they get in trouble. in no way am i
saying that it's a woman's fault for getting raped/assaulted/whatever, but
i reserve the right to tell her that she was an idiot for putting herself
in a dangerous situation. women have to learn to accept the consequences
of what they do, as well as men. feminism (as it seems to me) is trying
to absolve women of all responsibilites for their actions and placing that
responsibility on the man. which is not rght. everyone has to accept
their own mistakes and GET ON WITH LIFE. (and that goes with calling ppl
(insert ethnic name) Americans. you're in america now, you're americans.
get over it.)
my $.02 worth....
natalie
who thinks that PC is a fancy mindgame that is diverting our attention
from thereal problems in this society
From balistic@yabbs Sun Aug 14 13:29:46 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: PC
Date: Sun Aug 14 13:29:46 1994
Can't wait to see that movie PCU, the one that bashes political
correctness....oughtta be cool :)
later
Brian balistic Prince
From Hash@yabbs Sun Aug 14 15:19:10 1994
From: Hash@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: re: re:the east
Date: Sun Aug 14 15:19:10 1994
yessir, and i'd love to discuss other religions other than christianity
here. not that taoism is a religion really.....
From Hash@yabbs Sun Aug 14 15:25:13 1994
From: Hash@yabbs
To: laelth@yabbs
Subject: re: Eastern Religions
Date: Sun Aug 14 15:25:13 1994
hmmm.....would you, by chance, be an isolationist? i would have to
disagree with your point. though we are very western, that does not mean
that we cannot or should not learn from the wisdom of others. i, for one,
am a much more content and peaceful person because i have read books like
the tao te ching, the teachings of chuang tze, the diamond sutra, etc. i
the entire eastern philosophy and eastern religions speak to me as no
western religion ever has.
just a comment,
hash
From dmonger@yabbs Sun Aug 14 15:33:09 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: laelth@yabbs
Subject: re: PC
Date: Sun Aug 14 15:33:09 1994
In message re: PC, laelth said:
> First off, let me say that I hate the term PC. Some neo-nazi ideologue
> came up with that term in order to give some liberal college professors a
> bad name, and to degrade their thinking, their teaching, and their
> argumentation. And it worked ... too well.
no, i think its the way that this movement has implememted itself that
degrades it. I agree with the idea that you stated below, but not with the
superficial way in which i have seen it implemented, which has been by
trying to change the names and titles that we use for each other.
> But since we have no other way to "name" this phenomenon, then we might as
> well call it PC, just so that we can communicate. Basically, being PC
> means standing up for all the traditionally oppressed groups in our world
> and in our society. It means defending the rights of women, of
> minorities, of gays, of people with AIDS, people with disabilities, etc.
> Is that such a bad thing?
The road to hell ...
> Of course, most of the attacks against political correctness are masked
> under the guise of protecting freedom of speech. But let's face it, the
> PC people are liberals. They'll defend your right to say and to think
> whatever you want. But what they won't defend is your continuing to
> exploit and oppress the weaker members of our society. I believe that
> NAZIs have every right to pass out their literature, parade, and get
> attention in any legal way, but I cannot condone racist ACTS. No more
> lynchings!
hmm, interesting. name calling == lynching? i don't know about this.
While i do agree that there are many terms used to describe minority groups
that could be deemed offensive, because they were associated with them
in a negative form in the past. But what's going to happen three years down
the road when someone decides that being called physically challenged is
now being used in an offensive context and thus is also degrading.
the goal of the pc movement as i have seen it is to change people's perceptions
of these minorities (which is a good thing) only by changing the way we
describe them. It doesn't try to change their status, it doesn't really
try to break down stereotypes, it attacks the symptoms, not the disease.
> It's very easy in our current political climate to be very anti-PC. But I
> ask you to consider that being anti-PC (for many) means being anti-women,
> anti-minorities, anti-gay, and a lot of other ugly things.
and being pro-choice makes you a baby killer. Odd that this argument
(which i don't really agree with) when applied to abortion is usually
discounted. non pc does not mean racist, there are many reasons other than
that to dislike the movement.
> Is that really
> what you want to be? I mean really, who's the victim here? Is it the
> poor college student who's challenged by a liberal professor? Or is it
> women who are raped, African-Americans who are denied quality education,
> gays who are beaten just for being gay, Jews who were gassed by the
> millions this century? At whom do you want to be angry?
or is it the person who is being told that they chose their words because they
are racist, sexist pigs, even when that isn't the case.
what does that have to do with the words i use. If i spell woman instead of
womyn (something which was being argued about quite a bit on my campus for
a while), does that make me sexist. If i call an 18 year old woman who acts
14 a girl, how am i saying anything against women? But both of these are
statements that i don't think the PC movement would disagree with.
and i want to be angry at the hyper-liberals who have decided that they are
going to police my thoughts and language, and make decisions for me about what
i will say based on their perceptions of what is and what is not offensive.
I don't call black people black if they ask me not to. I don't call them
by any of the more offensive terms unless they ask me to. I use the term
men in cases where people claim i should say men/women, not because i only
picture men in the position of the subject, but because its sounds better to
me.
if you really want to call me anti gay, woman, minority, whatever feel free.
while i may find it offensive, it is your right to say and believe what you
want. Enjoy it while it lasts
-peter
From Natalie@yabbs Sun Aug 14 22:00:17 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: dmonger@yabbs
Subject: re: PC
Date: Sun Aug 14 22:00:17 1994
i couldn't have said it better myself, peter :)
i tend to get a little angry when someone tries to rationalize that silly
little word game to me...cause that's all it is to me, a word game. just
my actions, not my words. judge^^^^
natalie
From daved@yabbs Sun Aug 14 22:11:10 1994
From: daved@yabbs
To: laelth@yabbs
Subject: re: Science
Date: Sun Aug 14 22:11:10 1994
Science is not a religion. Science is always changing, where religion is
doesnt. Science IS replacing religion. Religion is based on faith, science
on facts. That is why it changes.with new facts comes new theories and
proof to certain kinds of pre and current existence. Im sorry but religion
was only made to settle peoples minds, where science hadnt yet explained.
religion=myth. Science=fact.
From Natalie@yabbs Mon Aug 15 00:11:47 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: daved@yabbs
Subject: re: Science
Date: Mon Aug 15 00:11:47 1994
oh, i hate to tell you this, but religion changes too. do you think that
the christian of today's view of God is the same as the Christian of 500
years ago? i'd be willing to bet money on the fact that it isn't. i'm
reading a book right now, called "A History Of God" (can't remember the
author and i'm too lazy to go uptairs and look). the author's MAIN THESIS
is that people's perceptions of God change as their lives and needs do.
religion is NOT a static thing, it changes with the people who believe in
it. the God of the Old Testament is NOT the God of Pope John Paul II.
and while the God of Judaism and the God of Islam are the same God of
Christianity, He manifests in different ways for Jews and Muslims, because
they have different needs from God.
I agree with laelth's assertion that science is replacing God in our
lives. Doctors and scientists have the same power over us today that
priests did 500 years ago. If you don't believe in the religion of
science, then you're seen as hopelessly backwards and naive, unenlightened
to the true facts. (note the parallel here between the scientists and {he
missionaries of the imperialist period.) But what are facts? Just whatwe
see, or SEEM to see. In a few hundred years, it might be discovered that
what we believe (and you have to have justas much faith in science as you
do in religion) is wrong, just was many seem to think that science has
discovered the errors in religion. a doctor can condemn a patient to death
with a few simple words, his diagnosis of his illness...but what if the
doctor is wrong? a priest could condemn a person the death by proclaiming
them a heretic...but what if the priest was wrong? the only difference
between science and religion that i see is that science has technology on
its side (all those fancy machines and equations), while religion has art,
poetry, and imagination on its (religion has produced more great art than
science could ever hope to).
Science speaks to our brains, religion speaks to our hearts and souls. I,
for one, gladly choose religion over science any day. BUt what religion?
That i could not tell you.
natalie
who believes in SOMETHING, but isn't sure what...
From Pele@yabbs Mon Aug 15 00:48:59 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: Science
Date: Mon Aug 15 00:48:59 1994
That's the most incredible thing I've read on this base. I couldn't agree
with you more. :)
-Pele-
From monk-y@yabbs Mon Aug 15 01:22:27 1994
From: monk-y@yabbs
To: dmonger@yabbs
Subject: re: PC
Date: Mon Aug 15 01:22:27 1994
I speak as a hyper-liberal. As someone who would probably be called
PC. As one of those dreaded "Tenured Radicals." As an "Illiberal
Educator." As one of those smart-ass, college campus, pseudo-hippie
Jansport-backpack-touting, Birkenstock-wearing, et cetera, et cetera
About five years ago, when the Gen X thing was just getting off the
ground as a summer cover story for Time, Newsweek, et al.,(these
stories get heavy rotation in summer, I notice) I had a chance to watch
the whole PC thing accompany it. Five years ago, PC was about
being environmentally conscious, reacting against the Reagan 80's,
in some (not all) cases, being pro-choice, pro-alternate lifestyle,
and a variety of other positions, most of which were receiving little
if any representation in our government. We didn't want to burn down
our college president's house, but we did want him to know that making
money from investments in a country which operated under apartheid
did not represent our interests.
Nowadays, all that PC is good for is coming up with new euphemisms for
old problems, and I agree that it's over the top. But I think Laelth's
point was not to call dmonger anti-anything, or make insinuations about
Natalie. It was to call attention to the way that the "movement" has
been constructed through the media to point of parody and caricature.
When you judge us (and I guess I'll assume the mantle of PC, much as I
hate to) by _our_ actions, we've done plenty. But on TV, and in the
newrags, all you get are words. And the words you get are isolated
examples of the extremes, just as the actions/words of Jerry Falwell
hardly represent the mainstream of Christianity.
Perhaps one point worth making is this: just because you choose not to
euphemize with the rest of the Puritans, you are not anti-. But the way
the whole debate has been constructed, we are all made to feel as though
there are only the two options. And if I recall Laelth's post correctly,
he was making the point that if we do restrict ourselves to those two
positions, he'd rather sit on the PC side of the fence, because it's
easier to live with euphemisms like "mentally challenged" and to work
for positive change, than it is to resist the whole package.
_STOP_ I'm not accusing here. I am explaining how he (and I, for that
matter) perceive the situation, and how _we_ respond to it. If you do not
agree, it doesn't make you evil. It makes you different. But then, that
used to be the point that became PC, five years ago. There aren't only
two positions, however much they want us to believe there are.
Restlessly
The Monkey King, Great Sage, Equal to Heaven
From Deana.@yabbs Mon Aug 15 03:27:27 1994
From: Deana.@yabbs
To: 8charact@yabbs
Subject: Thanks
Date: Mon Aug 15 03:27:27 1994
Thanks 8charact
I appreciate it!
*hug*
Dee
aka sienna
From dmonger@yabbs Mon Aug 15 15:34:45 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: daved@yabbs
Subject: re: Science
Date: Mon Aug 15 15:34:45 1994
yep,
one of the biggest differences between science and religion is that science is
(for the most part, ignoring funding and other such problems) verifyable
while it is built on certain basic beliefs like religions are, it is built upon
fact rather than faith. faith is not necessary because you can always repeat a
good experiment and see for yourself that the rules predict the outcome.
on the otherhand, try repeating a miracle.
-peter
From Typhon@yabbs Mon Aug 15 19:18:21 1994
From: Typhon@yabbs
To: laelth@yabbs
Subject: PC is the new Plague
Date: Mon Aug 15 19:18:21 1994
I hate the whole idea of "political Correctness" People are losing their
lives over this filth, this silent pressure to conform...I don not agree
with you that this is standing up for traditionally oppressed peoples,
although I believe that you may think it truly is, and am not flaming you.
I just despise this trend of "YOU MUST THINK AS WE DO" that has occured
all over the country, at colleges and universities and even in the
mainstream.
Example: I wrote a poem about mutilating myself. IT WAS A POEM! I read
this poem at a poetry reading. IMMEDIATELY, th ePC police )A posse of
freshmen and sophmores who have taken it upon themselves to control all
our thoughtrs apparently) came to em and told me that my poem would put
the idea in others heads to do the same, that it was offensive and
degrading (TO WHOM!? IT WAS ABOUT ME!?) and that they thought that Art
should be uplifting to all. So I countered with the works of Kafka,
Goethe, Eliot, Dante Aligheri, Pound, to name a few. They hadn'tr read
them. So I basically said that until they actually took the TIME to read
literature, I wasn't going tro meekly acceept their opinions on it.
This blossomed into a major controversy. When the poem was published, they
wrote enraged letters full of rhetoric to the school newspaper. When I
read it again at trhe next Poetry reading, they booed me. (They were,
however, set upon by nearly the entire crowd, so I felt vindicated)
Why did they do this? To keep ME from degrading (They said) ME. I cannot
do that, in my opinion, since being human is to be a meat package, a pain
editor.
So you see, THAT is what PC is to me. The rampant attempt to foist off
another's mindset on you by the supposed "Intelligensia" who, after all,
are better equipped to do our thinking than WE are.
Typhon the Firebreather
From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 15 22:35:42 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: Goodbye follow-up
Date: Mon Aug 15 22:35:42 1994
Dee,
Drop me a line when you get to school.
My e-mail address is on 'yabbs'. Need any ideas for papers for the course
just send a note... I'm sure I could give you a few suggestions.
I have a graduate degree in Theology (that and a dime might get you a
cup of coffee). Hope all goes well.
Dave (alias 8charact)
:-)
From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 15 22:37:54 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: Intro. to Religion
Date: Mon Aug 15 22:37:54 1994
Natalie,
You never know.....
You could be surprised or you could be right.
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 15 22:43:14 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: laelth@yabbs
Subject: Western mysticism
Date: Mon Aug 15 22:43:14 1994
laelth,
Have you ever thought of looking at Western mysticism? Very similar
to Eastern but with a decidedly Western flavor. Could be an interesting
approach for you?
There are some interesting women and men in this tradition which is
one important issue that tends to distinguish it from Eastern traditions.
Thomas Merton also provides some interesting insights into Eastern
religious tradtions from a Western viewpoint.
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 15 23:01:05 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: daved@yabbs
Subject: Science and Religion?? Not
Date: Mon Aug 15 23:01:05 1994
daved,
Even though science and religion may not always use the same approach
to reality, they do have a lot in common. Science is based on a view of
reality that depends on faith... It has faith in the scientific method.
It has faith that there is a scientific method and that it works.
Also, the notion that religion does not change or evolve is quite
false. Christianity, Judaism, Islam have all changed and evolved.
Buddhism and Hinduism change. All religions are in constant dialogue with
the cultures in which they exists because they are the faith of people who
live in changing cultures.
Finally, if you really check out science carefully, you will find that
its so-called facts are not always so clear and precise.
Reality can be seen and understood in many ways. Science offers one
approach; religion offers another. They are not antagonistic, rather
complementary. Problems only evolve when one or the other "thinks" that
it has every answer without acknowledging that the other point of value
may have something to share in understanding reality.
In defense of religion, it does have its place. Religion (as
predicted by some philosophers) will not go away just because we have
science.
Enough said.... Probably more than I should.
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 15 23:02:43 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: Science
Date: Mon Aug 15 23:02:43 1994
Nastalie,
SOme good points in that response.
8charact
From Page@yabbs Mon Aug 15 23:54:18 1994
From: Page@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Comedy Relief
Date: Mon Aug 15 23:54:18 1994
I would like to announce that I have joined my high schoo's glee club...
So let's all be gay and happy... That's what I think I should do and
everyone else... That way we can all be in full spirit...
From pixy@yabbs Tue Aug 16 01:30:50 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: PC
Date: Tue Aug 16 01:30:50 1994
In message re: PC, Natalie said:
> i'm sorry, but i'm not goingto change the way i speak just so someone's
> feelings don'tget hurt. for example, i have an aunt. she's retarded.
> she is NOT mentally challenged. she is retarded. there is no challenge
> there because she does not have the mental faculties to succeed. i will
*I might be 20 posts behind, but who cares? I've a few cents to throw on
this one*
NO one has ever been able to define the term political correctness to me,
so here's my guess: PC is the euphemising of language for the sake of others.
Now, using that definition, let me unfold a small irony in the PC
movement. Ironically, by using the term Politically correct instead of
oversensitive or spineless, aren't you being somewhat politically correct?
Enough of that. I think that PC is a Republican ploy to capatalize on the
tensions and frustrations that have risen from the average man as he tries
to adjust to the liberal mind-set. I would say it's a great ploy, too;
it's been a highly successful addition to the usual Republican dogma. And
why not? Now the Republicans can make the Liberals look like oppressors
instead of vice versa.
Of course, the whole PC phenomina sounds great until you begin to THINK
about it. Is the anti-PC movement founded upon well thought out principles
and values, or a distracting political ploy by hack conservatives?
Naturally, it's the latter. Think about it, if being racially and sexually
and whatever else sensitive when you speak is such a bad thing, why don't
the hack conservatives take their beliefs to their logical end and use
such words as "nigger", "bitch", and "cripple"--well, in public, that is?
I am a firm believer that the liberal racial ideology will do more to
separate people than unite them; I think that forced sensitivity leads to
partisan animosity. But I also believe that mainstream "conservatives" are
shortsighted--certainly not self aware--in rebelling against political
correctness. In fact, I believe most people who throw the term PC around
alot employ it in their own way. Don't many mainstream conservatives
demand sensitivities of their own? What else could we see censorship of
"obscenities" as but the exercise of conservative correctness?
So, feel free to fight PC, but don't pussy out on us and only go half way.
pixy
From pixy@yabbs Tue Aug 16 01:44:01 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: PC
Date: Tue Aug 16 01:44:01 1994
In message re: PC, Natalie said:
> i tend to get a little angry when someone tries to rationalize that silly
> little word game to me...cause that's all it is to me, a word game. just
> my actions, not my words. judge^^^^
Don't kid yourself, speaking is an action. What you say does mean alot.
Unfortunately, people take words directed towards them way too
seriously--it's the animal within us. You say that you don't believe in
PC, but if I started throwing words like "bitch", "ho", or "dyke" in your
direction, you'd probalbly demand more sensitivity from me in some form or
fashion. I wouldn't care one way or the other what you call me; "honkey",
"whitey", "nut" wouldn't ever bother me.
Sure, I think the world would be a much friendlier place if people weren't
such crybabies about the English language, but I'm also convinced I'm one
of the only people who is willing to fully implement such beliefs.
pixy
From pixy@yabbs Tue Aug 16 02:04:13 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Typhon@yabbs
Subject: re: PC is the new Plague
Date: Tue Aug 16 02:04:13 1994
In message PC is the new Plague, Typhon said:
> I hate the whole idea of "political Correctness" People are losing their
> lives over this filth, this silent pressure to conform...I don not agree
> with you that this is standing up for traditionally oppressed peoples,
> although I believe that you may think it truly is, and am not flaming you.
That's the fault in the liberal brand of political correctness and race
relations. If you want to make people equal, you don't give them special
consideration, you drop them into NIetzche's goog old funnel with the rest
of you plebes and duke it out with everyone regardless of who they are.
That's what made america the melting pot. Notice it was never called the
centrifuge. We didn't bring equality by treating people as members of a
separate group, we brought it by letting them all in and leaving to fend
for themselves. American culture didn't try to separate and deal different
sets of people, it gave them one option: adapt to survive.
It seems insane to respect and preserve cultures. Humanity gains from the
clashing and changing of cultures. People are at their best when they are
culturally assimilating. Take the Indians, for example. If Europe had
never come to America, the stagnant and inferior Native culture would
still be here. Now, I didn't say that the Indians themselves were
inferior--that'd make me a racist--but their culture wasbegging to be
eradicated.
So, if you want to cure racism, destroy races. Forget about all the taboos
of race relations. Let the cultures merge and eventually we will have
unity.
pixy
From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 16 02:56:21 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Typhon@yabbs
Subject: re: PC is the new Plague
Date: Tue Aug 16 02:56:21 1994
I agree whole-heartedly!
Here is a quote for you all:
"Be yourself. Who else is better qualified?"
-Giblin
Dee
From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 16 02:56:57 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: 8charact@yabbs
Subject: re: Goodbye follow-up
Date: Tue Aug 16 02:56:57 1994
Thanks a lot, Dave...I sure will keep you in mind!
*hug*
Dee
:)
From Cat@yabbs Tue Aug 16 10:11:50 1994
From: Cat@yabbs
To: natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: PC is the new Plague
Date: Tue Aug 16 10:11:50 1994
i was in the cafeteria at school with my friend from korea and someone
came up to us and asked him if he was chinese and he said no but i am
asian...and the person said no, you're oriental...asian isn't politically
correct...that's when i think the pc movement has gotten out of
hand...when we have people telling others what they should call themselves.
From Cat@yabbs Tue Aug 16 10:17:11 1994
From: Cat@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: <no title>
Date: Tue Aug 16 10:17:11 1994
i think one of the best classes i took at uvm was a class on asian
religious traditions. i've read up on a lot of different religions, and
though they might have different deities and creation stories and
whatnot, they all seem to have similar themes and ideas...one thing (out
of many :) ) that i can't stand about my church is that they assume they
have the "right" religion and that everyone else is wrong...religion is
all a matter of faith..i don't think there is a right and a wrong
religion...i also think there's a difference between being religious and
having a religion...and i still don't believe in church anyway so....
i have gone to many churches and church type things and i think the only
one i ever really liked was the quaker meeting i went to with a friend.
i also liked that stain glassed windows in the catholic church in
burlington, but i couldn't for the life of me tell you what that service
had been about.
From dmonger@yabbs Tue Aug 16 11:01:43 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: pixy@yabbs
Subject: re: PC is the new Plague
Date: Tue Aug 16 11:01:43 1994
i don't have any problem with respecting and preserving cultures. I think
there is a lot we can learn, and to ignore them or squash them is a horrible
thing.
However, i do have some problem with "multiculturalism". IMO, we're americans,
not african americans, or irish americans. What we need is an american
society which can accept all its members, not a different little society for
each different culture that we're part of.
-peter
From dmonger@yabbs Tue Aug 16 11:03:26 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: PC is the new Plague
Date: Tue Aug 16 11:03:26 1994
In message re: PC is the new Plague, Cat said:
> and the person said no, you're oriental...asian isn't politically
> correct...
and what happens when the PC police decide that oriental is also not
politically correct because it has taken on an offensive connotation as well.
Do we pick another new word?
-peter
From Cat@yabbs Tue Aug 16 11:27:29 1994
From: Cat@yabbs
To: dmonger@yabbs
Subject: re: PC is the new Plague
Date: Tue Aug 16 11:27:29 1994
In message re: PC is the new Plague, dmonger said:
> and what happens when the PC police decide that oriental is also not
> politically correct because it has taken on an offensive connotation as well.
> Do we pick another new word?
i say let's just scrap the whole thing. it startes out as a good idea
perhaps with good intentions, but now it's so out of hands it's like
another form of censorship.
-tammie
From Typhon@yabbs Tue Aug 16 12:12:33 1994
From: Typhon@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: Politically Correct Religon
Date: Tue Aug 16 12:12:33 1994
Since this is the religon board...
I think It's amusing that the Catholic Church, which still won't allow
Woman Preiests, is willing to go with "God The Creator, God the Offsping,
and God the Holy Spirit.)
Typhon the Usurper
From Hash@yabbs Tue Aug 16 12:40:43 1994
From: Hash@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: all this pc stuff
Date: Tue Aug 16 12:40:43 1994
yes, i'd have to agree that the entire 'pc' movement has gotten a bit out
of hand. but i wouldnt agree that it's intentions werent good. pc began
as a movement to introduce greater sensitivity to all, and it has
degenerated into a silly word game. one cant critiscise the entire
movement for that...
where i stand...if i can alter the words i use (or whatever) so that a
person i'm trying to communicate with does not immediately disregard what
i'm saying just based on my selection of words, i'm a happy gal.
it doesnt put me out too much to try to be sensitive. i want people to
hear my meaning as opposed to the words i use. if that means changing
those words without destroying their meaning, and that my message is
conveyed instead of ignored, i embrace 'pc' instead of throwing petty
criticisms at it.
that's all.
hahs
From Cat@yabbs Tue Aug 16 12:48:58 1994
From: Cat@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: religion
Date: Tue Aug 16 12:48:58 1994
hmm do you think people turn to religion because they fear death and what
lies (if anything) lies beyond it, or because they fear this life and
what's in it?
-tammie
From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 16 13:51:18 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: PC is the new Plague
Date: Tue Aug 16 13:51:18 1994
Cat said the following:
> correct...that's when i think the pc movement has gotten out of
> hand...when we have people telling others what they should call
> themselves.
Excellent point, Tammie!
*hug*
Dee
From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 16 13:52:30 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: dmonger@yabbs
Subject: re: PC is the new Plague
Date: Tue Aug 16 13:52:30 1994
Sienna is a Female Irish-German-Cherokee-English American (hehehehe)
;)
Dee
From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 16 14:00:56 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: PC is the new Plague
Date: Tue Aug 16 14:00:56 1994
Cat said in message re: PC is the new Plague:
> perhaps with good intentions, but now it's so out of hand it's like
> another form of censorship.
Aptly put...well-said my feline friend!
*hug*
Dee
From dmonger@yabbs Tue Aug 16 14:57:36 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: religion
Date: Tue Aug 16 14:57:36 1994
well it depends on the religion.
for christianity, it helps with both. It provides something relatively concrete
after death (as opposed to nothingness which is a concept i'm still working
on after 21 years of trying to figure it out every night while i fall asleep),
and it provides guidelines to help one make decisions throughout their lives.
Also, a lot of people have a great deal of trouble with the idea that all
the events in the world are random (not that i'm saying they are). It can be
much more comforting to believe that everything happens for a reason.
-peter
From htoaster@yabbs Tue Aug 16 15:08:02 1994
From: htoaster@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: pc movement
Date: Tue Aug 16 15:08:02 1994
half of the reason that it is so out of hand is that the people against it
started suggesting all of the stupid pc terms that should also get put into
use...
i think taken at face value it is a great thing. its also not a whole lot more
than what has always been going on. calling a black person a "nigger" has
been balked on for the past 30 years, but it was just never labeled as being
non-pc...
i just try not to label people in ways which might offend them...and i'd like
to not be labeled in ways that can offend me...
alex
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 16 16:34:38 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: PC is the new Plague
Date: Tue Aug 16 16:34:38 1994
yep, i concur...odd....i thought asian WAS PC, while oriental
wasn't...hmmm....ah well, maybe i got all confused...
natalie
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 16 16:36:45 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: <no title>
Date: Tue Aug 16 16:36:45 1994
hmmm...i've been meaning to get to a quaker service one of these
days...and i like going to mass....but i wish there was a church near me
that still did it in latin, not in english, i've only heard mass said in
latin once, in a BIG old stone church in boston...it was pretty cool...if
i ever get married, i want to so it catholic style, i think...i looooove
all the ceremony....
natalie
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 16 16:39:17 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Typhon@yabbs
Subject: re: Politically Correct Religon
Date: Tue Aug 16 16:39:17 1994
oh, you're in for it now....you get to hear me explain ALL about the
Trinity, cause i JUST finished reading that section in my history of god
book....basically, the trinity is NOT 3 separate beings, but three aspects
of one being...but when one aspect is in the front, the other 2 always
show thru...it's hard to explain, but i think it's a cool idea...but
gnosticism is still cooooooler....
natalie
who listens at night for the words of sophia on the night breezes...
From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 16 16:42:02 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: religion
Date: Tue Aug 16 16:42:02 1994
hmmm...my best friend claims that my interest in religion has gone beyond
the scholarly, ie, i'm looking for SOMETHING...i'm not sure why i'm
becoming more religious than i was before...i'm not scared of life and i'm
not scared of death...it's just that i feel that there has to be a reason
for my being here. i can't accept an existentialist view of the world...
but then again, maybe it's just cause my family's irish catholic...
natalie
From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 16 21:21:00 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: religion
Date: Tue Aug 16 21:21:00 1994
Tammie,
Let's see....
None of the above.
People turn to religion for a variety of reasons; each personal.
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 16 21:26:56 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: Religion and Existentialism
Date: Tue Aug 16 21:26:56 1994
Natalie,
Let's keep in mind that many existentialists were either Christian or
religious, i.e. Kierkegard, Gabriel Marcel, Martin Buber (Jewish).
Religious and /or Christian beliefs are not necessarily in opposition to
existentialism. Sartre was not the only existentialist!
8charact
From Natalie@yabbs Wed Aug 17 01:14:18 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: 8charact@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion and Existentialism
Date: Wed Aug 17 01:14:18 1994
well, sartre and camus are the only existentialists i've read, so tht was
what i was thinking about when i said that....i realize that there are
christian existentialists...perhaps i might have better have said a
nietzchean view of the world (but then again, i really haven't read
him either). blah, i just can't accept the idea of a world w/o some sort
of divine presence...
natalie
From Cat@yabbs Wed Aug 17 10:17:04 1994
From: Cat@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion and Existentialism
Date: Wed Aug 17 10:17:04 1994
hey nat, ever read the grand inqisitor? it's in the brothers
karamazov...you might like that...
From Hrothgar@yabbs Wed Aug 17 18:30:06 1994
From: Hrothgar@yabbs
To: natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion and Existentialism
Date: Wed Aug 17 18:30:06 1994
Well said, nat. The trinity (as I was taught in my conservative Episcopal
upbringing) is One Body. The saying is "3 in 1, 1 in 3." The first half
means that our God is all-encompassing (as far as being Father, Son, and
Holy Ghost), while the latter refers to, as you put it, when one takes the
foreground, the others are still manifested in their own way.
I'll claim general ignorance in readings of Eastern cultures, but I have
been to services in America such as Greek and Russian Orthodox, communal
(fascinating people), and Hamish (also quite fascinating), and have
learned a bit of Hebrew faith as well. My feeling is (and I wish I knew
who to credit with this) is, whatever suits you best, makes you feel most
comfortable, or best meets your needs, that's the one you should pursue.
We shouldn't concern ourselves with which religion is more right, or
why it's better to have specific beliefs, but rather, what's best for us
as individuals.
Food for thought...
Hroth
From Typhon@yabbs Wed Aug 17 19:30:47 1994
From: Typhon@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: religion
Date: Wed Aug 17 19:30:47 1994
I fear this life, but not death..I will not feel the pain they all want me
to feel. I won't be hurt. I'll burn love out of my mind, disavow the
nature of mankind, cast myself from it and become the only one of my new
race...alone forever...forever apart..Isolated from whatever gods would
make a thing like me.
I, and all mankind, am an abomination, and any diety would be disgusted at
this grim and hellish brood. We should all be annihilated.
Typhon the Forsaken
From Typhon@yabbs Wed Aug 17 19:32:39 1994
From: Typhon@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: Nietzche
Date: Wed Aug 17 19:32:39 1994
The man was too damned optimistic...He never saw the blight of mankind
infesting the world, destroying and reaving.
Typhon the Forsaken
From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 18 00:23:38 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: PC
Date: Thu Aug 18 00:23:38 1994
This may be behind but. I can't see anything wrong with making an effort
to be sensitive to the people around you. I don't think that we should
make up new words to describe people if the present words were never
considered derogatory.
By that, I mean. The word "dwarf" has long been used as a medical term to
describe those members of our society who are suffering from dwarfism. I
would therefore call a dwarf a dwarf and not a person who is "vertically
challenged." I think to call someone who is blind "visually impared" is
rediculous. If this is what PC is supposed to be, then i'm against it.
However, there is some good to come from it. I happen to like the fact
that people are careful not to use the word "nigger" around me. Why?
Because it has long been a derogatory term to describe black people. Now
if I was brought up hearing the word "nigger" in a non-negative way all
my life, I wouldn't care. My friends, who happen to be both black and why
use the word in conversation (listen to rap). It's not a negative term so
it doesn't bother me.
I guess what I'm tring to say is that PC should not be about terminoloby
but about it's intent. I mean if you're sensitive to people around you
then I"m OK with you. I mean, if you know a person has a problem with
being called blind. Don't call them blind. Heck, don't even mention it
at all.
From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 18 00:36:43 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Cat@yabbs
Subject: re: religion
Date: Thu Aug 18 00:36:43 1994
I think that's an intiguing question. One that a lot of people have
asked. Shakespeare touched on it in Hamelt's "To be or not to be" speech.
I personally don't really know. I know for sure that one thing that most
religions provide is an assurance of a better life after death. How you
achieve that particular life depends on the doctrine of the respective
religion.
I think a lot of people need religion. I know I do. When I think about
the living hell I endure daily, it's...comforting to believe that once I
am done living through this, I'll have something better to look forward
to. It keeps me going from day to day.
There are others, however, who are quite content with their lives and who
don't need religion in that way. Those who do turn to religion from
amongst these numbers probably do so, IMO, because they like the idea of
immortality. Mankind has a tendency to quest for immortality and the idea
of living forever, no matter how unlikely, is very appealing. It is this
that makes people take a leap of faith. They are willing to discard all
logic and rational in order to hope for something bigger and greater than
them. This give us perspective and a certain level of humility.
My $2 :)
From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 18 00:40:58 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: The Trinity
Date: Thu Aug 18 00:40:58 1994
I never could accept the idea that God is three separate identities rolled
into one. It denies the very concept of God (God created man in his own
image and junk).
From Natalie@yabbs Thu Aug 18 06:40:23 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Thu Aug 18 06:40:23 1994
however, the idea of the trinity is central to christianity. there's a
very good explanation of the trinity in a book called 'a history of god'.
i don't feel like running up 2 flights of stairs to getthe author's name
so i'm not going to, but it's a very readable book, very scholarly, and it
just came out in hardcover in the US so you might be able to pick up at
your local library (where i got it). check it out, it's cooooool...
natalie
From alarm@yabbs Thu Aug 18 18:17:52 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Thu Aug 18 18:17:52 1994
I heard this great explanation of the Trinity that you might think about.
God spent a long time telling the Hebrew children that there is only one
God and that he was it. The most repeated scripture for the Jews is the
shema which means hear. Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one.
Then came Jesus. The disciples (Jews) saw him doing things that only God
could do. Especially when he raised from the dead, but even before that
they were experiencing God through Jesus Christ. Then the Holy Spirit came
and again they were experiencing God through the Holy Spirit. Peter called
Jesus God and Peter also called the Holy Spirit God.
But remember, Peter and the other apostles were Jews who primarily thought
of God as one. So later theologians saw the witness of the apostles to the
oneness of God and to the threeness of their experience and they termed
the experience with God reported in the New Testament Trinity.
alarm
From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 18 19:56:07 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Thu Aug 18 19:56:07 1994
In message re: The Trinity, alarm said:
> But remember, Peter and the other apostles were Jews who primarily thought
> of God as one. So later theologians saw the witness of the apostles to the
> oneness of God and to the threeness of their experience and they termed
> the experience with God reported in the New Testament Trinity.
That has long been my opinion on the Trinity. It is something that early
Theologians and heads of Catholic state created in order to justify
worshiping Jesus as a God. I find that if common sense is applied, one
will more likely come up with the idea that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit
are separate entities. I mean...think about it. Who was Jesus praying to in
Gethsename (Sp?)? Himself? God is supposed to have created man in his
own image. It would stand to reason, therefore that he would exist in a
similar manner to us. Aside from those who suffer from multiple
personality disorder, I can't think of anyone who is three people rolled
up in one.
I think that God is God. And that Jesus is his son. And that the Holy Spirit
was sent by God, as Jesus said it would be to help nurture us in our
exploration of life. They are three separate entities. If you want to
call them all God. I'm cool with that. But I need biblical proof that these
Gods are all the same guy before I accept it. And as of yet...no matter what,
I have never heard any concrete biblical support for this idea.
Thanx for reading. :)
-Pele-
From Natalie@yabbs Thu Aug 18 20:21:30 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Thu Aug 18 20:21:30 1994
so what you're saying is that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three
separate, but equal entities? if that's what you're saying, then all
three are gods...and that makes you a polytheist, NOT a monotheist. the
trinity is one of the hardest concepts to understand in christianity,
scholars argued for centuries over it. it's originally a greek idea,
which made it somewhat foreign to those not used to thinking in the same
way as the greeks. but as i said, the three beings in the trinity are the
three masks used by a God which we cannot ever fully know or understand
because God is, well, God.
natalie
From pixy@yabbs Fri Aug 19 01:05:21 1994
From: pixy@yabbs
To: Typhon@yabbs
Subject: re: Politically Correct Religon
Date: Fri Aug 19 01:05:21 1994
In message Politically Correct Religon, Typhon said:
> Since this is the religon board...
> I think It's amusing that the Catholic Church, which still won't allow
> Woman Preiests, is willing to go with "God The Creator, God the Offsping,
> and God the Holy Spirit.)
Now, I really shouldn't bother trying to defend the old Catholic Church--I
haven't been in about 10 years--but I gotta jump on this one.
Ever since the years of the Lingual analysts and Kierkegaard, it's been
pretty obvious that religious debates are futile. I don't like the
Catholic Church's position on alot of things, but there is no point in
arguing or judging them. How can you prove them right or wrong? Maybe God
doesn't want women to be priests, or priests to marry. It really is up to God.
Perhaps, maybe God is doing all sorts of nonsense things, working outside
of logic simply becuase he has power over all of it.
Who knows?
pixy
From Pele@yabbs Fri Aug 19 09:13:26 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Fri Aug 19 09:13:26 1994
I don't know to think exactly. But think on this. Lucifer had a great
deal of power while in heaven. In fact, he was second only to God. To us,
Lucifer was a god. In fact, there are those who would call Satan the God
of Evil (Or something like that). The bible does not discount the
presence of other Gods, just disavows there importance. "For I the Lord
thy God am a Jealous God!" (Exodous 20) suggests the presence of
other Gods. I am more willing to believe in three separate entities, all
of which we call God than to believe that God would be so very different
from us after making us "in his own image."
Mankind has always stipulated that if there is something about God we
don't understand, it's because, as you put it, "well...he's God" I like
to think that God is not this ruler who who we will never understand. God
is greater than us but he is not unreacheable. And like I said before.
I'd like some Biblical support for the Trinity idea.
-Pele-
From Pele@yabbs Fri Aug 19 09:14:50 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Fri Aug 19 09:14:50 1994
Make that..."I don't know what to think" =)
From Typhon@yabbs Fri Aug 19 10:15:11 1994
From: Typhon@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: Trinity
Date: Fri Aug 19 10:15:11 1994
Actually, it comes, in a modified way, from Zoroasterianism, where God was
one being with to selves, equal, co-eternal, yet one.
Ahura Mazda and Ahriman, equal yet one.
Also, this leads to Satan's inclusion in the christian religon as well.
Typhon
From alarm@yabbs Sat Aug 20 10:42:33 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Sat Aug 20 10:42:33 1994
Toward a biblical justification for the TRINITY:
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Ireael: The Lord your God, the Lord is one.
Isaiah 43:10-13 You are my witnesses, declares the Lord, and my servant
whom I have chosen so that you may know and believe me and understand that
I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I,
even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior. . . .
John 20:28 Thomas said to [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!"
To which Jesus replied "Because you have seen me, you have believed."
Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of
our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son [Jesus] he says, Your throne, O God, will
last for ever and ever, . . .
Acts 5:3-4 . . . Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the
Holy Spirit . . . You have not lied to men but to God.
These are just a sampling of the verses that can be used. Here is how it
goes. Deuteronomy - God is one. Isaiah - There is only one God and no
other. John - Jesus is God. Titus - Jesus is God. Hebrews - Jesus is God.
Acts - the Holy Spirit is God. And as you already know, Jesus addressed
God as his father. That makes one God with three manifestations.
alarm,
who is a student, a preacher, and a husband - a sort of three in one
type of person ;)
From Pele@yabbs Sat Aug 20 19:01:44 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Sat Aug 20 19:01:44 1994
I have heard those verses before. Thanx. But I don't know if that
justifies saying that God is all three rolled into one. I think it solidifies
the idea that God is supreme, but I just don't know. Think of it this way.
The Hindu believe in many different gods but worship Brahma, the Creator,
as the supreme. I am inclined to believe that Jesus and the holy spirit
are aspects of God, just as children are different aspects of their parents.
Jesus possesses something that God did not--Humanity. It's an aspect he
picked up from his mother, Mary, a human. Notice that, except in the case
of Ananaias and Sapphira (Sp?) "God" has become more humane and less wrathful.
Jesus said that he himself speaks to God on our behalf. I think that it's
easy to evolve the idea of the Trinity when we have to have "One God."
That's just my personal feeling on the matter. I'd be happy to discuss it.
I'm not entirely Bible ignorant so I'd be happy to hear your personal (not
the established Church's) opinion on the matter.
-Pele-
From Natalie@yabbs Sun Aug 21 00:11:14 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Sun Aug 21 00:11:14 1994
children are not different aspects off their parents. i am my own person,
i am not bits of my mother and father thrown together. while they may
have influenced the person i am, ultimately, _I_ decide that. it's like
there's this BEING, and it's got 3 different masks it wears. one is God,
the other is the Son, and the other is the Holy Spirit. but it's all of
those things while it's wearing that mask, and more things that we can't
understand. it says in the book on god that i'm reading that hte only
thing that you can say about god and be completely right is the god is
unknowable and incomprehensible to us
natalie
From Pele@yabbs Sun Aug 21 00:32:37 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Sun Aug 21 00:32:37 1994
So let me get this straight....God is suffering from Multilple Personality
Disorder? Because the fact is, thoughout the entire New Testament Jesus
is communicating with his father through prayer. And twice does God say,
while Jesus is standing right there "This is my son, with whom I am well
pleased" (or something like that). So if God is really all three entities
then he must be suffering from some sort of disorder because it seems
to me that he thinks that he, his son and the holy spirit are separate.
I think someone needs to suggest to God a good pyschotherapist and help
him work through his obvious confusion.
From Natalie@yabbs Sun Aug 21 00:59:04 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Sun Aug 21 00:59:04 1994
blah....the trinity is just something you have to BELIEVE in...you can't
explain it away with logic...it's above all logic and reason as we know
it...why? cause it's god of course :)
natalie
From dmonger@yabbs Sun Aug 21 01:55:35 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Sun Aug 21 01:55:35 1994
But since none of us can look into the face of god, we'll never know while
we're alive whether god is a three-faced being or not.
personally i think the trinity was an attempt to combine several concepts
of a supreme being into one. The idea that god, while one being, can manifest
him in many different ways; god the father, god the son, and
god the holy ghost being the ones that he has chosen
like nat said, its something you have to take on faith. Either you believe
it or you don't. How you justify that belief is up to you, but its not
something that one could really prove.
-peter
From Pele@yabbs Sun Aug 21 02:06:55 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: dmonger@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Sun Aug 21 02:06:55 1994
One of the things I pride myself on is my ability to hear an idea and take
that idea and reevalute my believes if need be. I don't know if the
trinity exists or not. I just say that the argument in it's favor doesnt'
hold water. Biblically or Logically. I'm not saying that "I'm right and
the established Church is wrong." I'm just saying that it makes more
sense to not complicate our idea of God any more than it already is.
Point to make. I don't believe in God because I was taught to. I believe
in God because I had a personal experience with him. We are taught to
believe in the Trinity. I have had no experience with it. If I meet
someone who has, I'd be happy to hear about it.
From dmonger@yabbs Sun Aug 21 08:59:49 1994
From: dmonger@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Sun Aug 21 08:59:49 1994
In message re: The Trinity, Pele said:
> One of the things I pride myself on is my ability to hear an idea and take
> that idea and reevalute my believes if need be.
Okay, i didn't mean to question your ability to do this. Sorry
> I don't know if the
> trinity exists or not. I just say that the argument in it's favor doesnt'
> hold water. Biblically or Logically. I'm not saying that "I'm right and
> the established Church is wrong." I'm just saying that it makes more
> sense to not complicate our idea of God any more than it already is.
Makes sense to me.
> Point to make. I don't believe in God because I was taught to. I believe
> in God because I had a personal experience with him.
I'm very glad to hear this. I don't think anyone should be "taught" religion,
> We are taught to
> believe in the Trinity. I have had no experience with it. If I meet
> someone who has, I'd be happy to hear about it.
I have to ask. Were you taught that the bible was the word of god (tm). If
so, then perhaps basing your ideas about the trinity on the absense or presence
of biblical material might be as much of a mistake as "i believe in god cause
dad told me to".
-peter
who isn't trying to slight anyone right now since i have neither the time nor
the energy for a good fight :)
From Pele@yabbs Sun Aug 21 14:18:05 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: dmonger@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Sun Aug 21 14:18:05 1994
You're right. I was taught that the bible was the word of God. BUt
believe it or not, I don't put much stock in it as the sole source of
religious information. I'm not saying that I don't believe in the Trinity
because it isn't mentioned directly in the Bible. What I'm saying is that
those who do believe in the Trinity claim to do so because of Biblical
evidence. That evidence, IMO has too many holes in it for me to accept it
as true. I have never heard anyone say "I believe in the Trinity because
I had an experience one that lead me to feel this way." I hear all the
time about peoplewho had life-changing experiences to do with God, Jesus,
and the Holy Spirit--separately. I just think that we've accepted as a
part of our belief system something that has no real foundation for
belief.
-Pele-
From Natalie@yabbs Sun Aug 21 20:27:29 1994
From: Natalie@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Sun Aug 21 20:27:29 1994
hmmmm...i don't believe in the trinity because of biblical proof. i'm not
much of a bible scholar. i accept the trinity on faith. again, i direct
you to Karen Armstrong's "A History Of God" for a really great explanation
of the Trinity and why it is so central to christian belief. I really do
think you should read this...not to convince you or anything, but so you
can see the basis of this belief, and the scholarly foundation (not to
metion the religious one) upon which it is based.
natalie
From Pele@yabbs Sun Aug 21 21:46:12 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Sun Aug 21 21:46:12 1994
will do.
From balistic@yabbs Sun Aug 21 22:13:36 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: The Trinity
Date: Sun Aug 21 22:13:36 1994
This trinity conversation remids me of a Certs commercial, "3, 3, 3
spirits in one" :)
Brian the breath-freshener
From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:38:31 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: A question I have
Date: Sun Aug 21 23:38:31 1994
Say something about angels.
Dee
From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:39:21 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Sun Aug 21 23:39:21 1994
If you met Jesus face to face, what question would you like to ask him?
From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:39:53 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Sun Aug 21 23:39:53 1994
I was wondering if anyone would be interested in sharing an experience of
answered prayer?
Dee
From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:40:07 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Sun Aug 21 23:40:07 1994
What is prayer to all of you anyway?
Dee
From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:41:10 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Sun Aug 21 23:41:10 1994
I also wondered what worship and faith mean to all of you, and in what
ways does your faith in God (or lack thereof) affect your life?
Dee
From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:41:54 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Sun Aug 21 23:41:54 1994
How can one know what God's will is for one's life?
Dee
Someone searching for answers to questions I didn't even ask.....
From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:43:55 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Sun Aug 21 23:43:55 1994
What does this mean to you:
"Bear one anothers burdens"
GAL. 6.2
If you all are wondering what the hell has gotten into me, well, I almost
got to meet my maker Friday night (in case some of you were wondering why
I havent been around).
I am really curious...please give me some feedback.
Sincerely,
Dee
Someone who sometimes wishes she didn't survive.
From Pele@yabbs Mon Aug 22 00:17:18 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Mon Aug 22 00:17:18 1994
Wow, full of questions aren't you. :)
Well..let's see. I'll answer at least one of your questions. If he
I met Jesus, I'd ask him what God was thinking when he made me.
From sienna@yabbs Mon Aug 22 12:33:40 1994
From: sienna@yabbs
To: Pele@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Mon Aug 22 12:33:40 1994
I know what God was thinking when he made me...he thought "Here is someone
I can have fun with!"
Dee
From balistic@yabbs Mon Aug 22 15:58:59 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: lighten up :)
Date: Mon Aug 22 15:58:59 1994
"IF YOU ever reached total enlightenment while you're drinking a
beer, I bet it would make beer shoot out your nose." :-)
Always look on the bright side of life...,
balistic
From alarm@yabbs Mon Aug 22 17:35:59 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Mon Aug 22 17:35:59 1994
Faith means believing that even God has a sense of humor. ;)
alarm
From robtelee@yabbs Mon Aug 22 22:06:35 1994
From: robtelee@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Mon Aug 22 22:06:35 1994
IMO, faith is something I accept without question. I really cannot
explain it any further than that. It is something that I feel deep inside
me.
Worship can take place anywhere. I ahve worshipped in cthedrals and in
the open air. I have worshipped with large crowds and in the company of a
couple of friends. Worship can take place anywhere and anytime. I
worship whenever I feel the need to speak to God. Not just requests for
God, but also to praise his name.
I hope that helps.
robtelee
From robtelee@yabbs Mon Aug 22 22:10:25 1994
From: robtelee@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Mon Aug 22 22:10:25 1994
The passage you quoted means, IMO, that one should spend time in the
company of believers. If you have a problem, take it to the minister of
choice. The company of believers help to uplift each other and to share
each other's burdens.
From Jazzy@yabbs Tue Aug 23 09:14:19 1994
From: Jazzy@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: read /i roth
Date: Tue Aug 23 09:14:19 1994
From 8charact@yabbs Wed Aug 24 16:22:39 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: Natalie@yabbs
Subject: re: Religion and Existentialism
Date: Wed Aug 24 16:22:39 1994
Natalie,
These Christian existentialists do (emphasis) believe in a divine
presence, but also give humans great amounts of control over their lives.
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Wed Aug 24 16:31:18 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: Response to your question..
Date: Wed Aug 24 16:31:18 1994
My question would be.....
What do you think of the situation on earth now?
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Wed Aug 24 16:33:55 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: Prayer
Date: Wed Aug 24 16:33:55 1994
Dee,
I think prayer is relationship with God....
I think prayer is awareness of God in one's life...
I think prayer is attempting to become God-like (in a Biblical sense;
not become God)
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Wed Aug 24 16:37:23 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: Worship and faith
Date: Wed Aug 24 16:37:23 1994
Dee,
Faith to me is something I live daily (I think) in all that I say, do
think and feel. ]
Worship is one means that I use to maitain my relationship with God
and the people of God. It helps me to encounter the divine presence of
our Supreme Creator
8charact
From 8charact@yabbs Wed Aug 24 16:41:46 1994
From: 8charact@yabbs
To: sienna@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Wed Aug 24 16:41:46 1994
Dee,
Hope all is well.
What is God's will? It is simple I think....
Love God and love others.
That's basically it. I can't think of an easier (maybe unsatisfactory
answer) answer. I know it probablyt won't help, but it is the root of my
faith.
8charact
From Pele@yabbs Wed Aug 24 22:37:05 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: 8charact@yabbs
Subject: re: A question I have
Date: Wed Aug 24 22:37:05 1994
I couldn't have said it better myself ( Believe me! )
From Pele@yabbs Sun Aug 28 03:54:03 1994
From: Pele@yabbs
To: all@yabbs
Subject: RBase..no more
Date: Sun Aug 28 03:54:03 1994
It seems to me that at this serene time, when yabbs faces certain doom, we
should all be flourishing on this base, prayin to whatever Gods we
hold dear to our hearts in the hops that something can be done! :)
My 2/10 of a dollar
:)
-Pele-
From balistic@yabbs Mon Aug 29 13:15:26 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re:god's sense o' humor
Date: Mon Aug 29 13:15:26 1994
Okay...a nun, a priest, and a minister walk into a bar...:)
balistic the silly
From Typhon@yabbs Mon Aug 29 14:48:17 1994
From: Typhon@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: re: re:god's sense o' humor
Date: Mon Aug 29 14:48:17 1994
"I just think that God finds me Incredibly Fucking funny."
---Dennis Miller
"God, Take it easy on Harry....He beielves in you."
---George Carlin
From balistic@yabbs Tue Aug 30 17:09:15 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: Typhon@yabbs
Subject: re: re:god's sense o' humor
Date: Tue Aug 30 17:09:15 1994
hehheh
"Toss the holy hand grenade!!!" :)
balistic
From alarm@yabbs Tue Aug 30 21:44:03 1994
From: alarm@yabbs
To: balistic@yabbs
Subject: re: re:god's sense o' humor
Date: Tue Aug 30 21:44:03 1994
Jesus says that if someone wants to sue you for the garment that you wear
next to your body then you are to give him your outer garment also. This
sounds like someone is going to be standing in court naked.
I think it sounds hilarious. :)
alarm
From Typhon@yabbs Wed Aug 31 11:32:29 1994
From: Typhon@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: re:god's sense o' humor
Date: Wed Aug 31 11:32:29 1994
"There's a dead bishop on the landing!"
"Where's he from?"
"Eh?"
What's his Diocese!?"
"Well, he looked a little Bath's an Wellsish to me..."
Monty Python
"Let teh Heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground
God will make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be forund."
Also Monty Python
"Jesus, Charles Darwin. Darwin, Jesus."
"Oh. Mr Darwin, I read your book.."
"Yes, my savior?"
"You WERE Kidding, Right?"
The Kids in the Hall
God makes the Snake: "This is EASY!"
Image of him rollin clay in his palms
--Gary Larson, The Far Side
Typhon the Irreverent
From balistic@yabbs Wed Aug 31 15:56:25 1994
From: balistic@yabbs
To: alarm@yabbs
Subject: re: re:god's sense o' humor
Date: Wed Aug 31 15:56:25 1994
holy pituitaries batman! :)
balistic
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