1059 lines
65 KiB
Plaintext
1059 lines
65 KiB
Plaintext
NUMBER OF LINES: 999
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001=Usr:0 Null User 06/30/87 20:34 Msg:0 Call:0 Lines:19
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1$If you are in need of help, you need but ask...
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2$************************* INSTALLED: 22 SEP 87 ****************************
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3$Welcome to BWMS II (BackWater Message System II) Mike Day System operator
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4$**************************************************************************
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5$GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS II IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION
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6$ PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM.
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7$BWMS II was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS II is a privately
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8$owned and operated system which is currently open for use by the general
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9$public. No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. As the
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10$system is privately owned, I retain the right to remove any and all
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11$messages which I may find offensive. Because of the limited size of the
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12$system, it will be periodically purged of messages (only 999 lines of data
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13$can be saved). To leave a message, type 'ENTER'. Use ctrl/C to get out
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14$the ENTER mode. The message is automatically stored. If after entering
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15$the message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to
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16$replace the line. To exit from the system, type 'BYE' then hang up.
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17$Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
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18$**************************************************************************
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19$
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002=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 09/22/87 21:32 Msg:591 Call:3934 Lines:4
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20 Abstention from any aleatory undertakings precludes a potential
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21 escalation of a lucrative nature.
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22 *****************************************************************
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23
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003=Usr:159 09/23/87 11:24 Msg:592 Call:3941 Lines:18
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24 One line away from making it to the top! Rats! It's been a long time
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25 since I was last here. I see that the format has changed to a password
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26 only format. It's a shame, since Portland can no longer boast about
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27 having a 'free' system anymore. I guess that greatness attracts pricks,
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28 like honey attracts flies, and a BBS must protect itself from those
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29 who get no pleasure out of creating, only of destroying.
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30 I can se a few hopeless romantics, a magic user or two, some poetry
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31 and spies. But where is Spell Check? Everyone used to love him(or her)
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32 Also obviously gone is the person who apparently could only type blanks
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33 and carriage returns.
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34 Mikey, I am mad. I think that I am one of the few people who can generate
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35 a 'BREAK' anymore, and your new system won't accept them. The old one could,
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36 and I did use that key. After all, a 'BREAK' is legitimate ASCII, even if
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37 slightly obselete. The entire RS232 standard is hoary and ancient, and I'm
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38 sure that you use that, so that couldn't be the objection. Couldn't you see
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39 your way to please programming break in, just for little old me?
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40 Well, I got to go to class now, so BYE
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41 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++OLD 000001TED+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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004=Usr:67 09/23/87 21:05 Msg:593 Call:3948 Lines:6
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42 &)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)&)
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43 TED: I know how you feel. I was there about a month ago. All the old
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44 names were gone. The old stories have advaced too far for my comprehension.
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45 But I adjusted. Have fun sometimes time and change can be very benificial.
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46 ................
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47
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005=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson 09/23/87 23:52 Msg:594 Call:3952 Lines:5
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48 Ted, you *were* the top! The stuff above you is how a certain unnamed person
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49 "breaks in" a new disk (and I am not referring to the first 19 lines!).
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50 By the way, since when is BREAK (aka .25 sec of space [ or was that mark])
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51 in ASCII? what's the Hex code?
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52 ____________________________________Leonard____________________________________
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006=Usr:159 09/24/87 18:35 Msg:595 Call:3971 Lines:36
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53 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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54 Ahah! I knew I'd catch someone on that 'break' statement. Notice, in my last
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55 message that I did not say 'ASCII character', only 'legitimate ASCII' opinions
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56 vary on the definition of ASCII, 'ESCAPE' is another misunderstood key that is
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57 often not recognized by software, but 'break' was used on almost all early
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58 terminals and mainframes, and was associated with ASCII. I know full well that
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59 'BREAK' is a hardware type communication that needs a modem that is smart
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60 enough to recognize it, but I had hoped that Mikey was still using the same
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61 modem. Anyway, ASCII is not a bunch of hex characters, it is a STANDARD, not a
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62 LANGUAGE. Just hope that someday you are not required to take a test on the
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63 ORIGINAL standard RS232. ANYWAY, since I was LATE, I'll do the traditional
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64 MADE IT TO THE TOP, right here.
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65 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++00001TED++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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66 Ages after the formation of the planets and their sun, the surface of the
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67 third planet cooled to rock and the last stab from gigantic planetary storms
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68 created the ocans. Ages after the oceans ceased boiling and the first halting
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69 attempts of life met with sucess, came the inevitable formation of the Ice.
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70 At first, restrained by the continuing heat and orbital nearness of the planet
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71 to it's sun, the Ice kept to the rotational poles of the planet. As orbital
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72 fluctuations continued throughout history the Ice advanced and retreated,
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73 wreaking havoc on the green planetary life and primitive animals. As always,
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74 the Ice lost, falling back to it's strongholds on the poles. Then, as the life
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75 of the planet and it's systems advanced, passing celestial bodies ripped the
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76 planet from it's once stable orbit. The orbit became elongated and as life
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77 disappeared the Ice alternatly won and lost, every year holding a power hungry
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78 grip on the planet and then disappearing altogether. The aged and dying sun,
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79 almost completly used up, with it's last flash expanded, completly destroying
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80 the first planet and engulfing the third planet in it's outer corona. The Ice,
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81 once dominant as a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, broke into it's components
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82 as the planet's surface melted into rock. Ages passed, and as the sun
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83 retreated to a cold white sphere the Ice reached it's final stage of victory.
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84 The remaning gases that the third planet had managed to grab gradually froze,
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85 blanketing the surface in a cold white covering. The only movement came from
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86 the occasional meteor smashing into the surface that had seen the final victory
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87 of the Ice.
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88
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007=Usr:94 09/25/87 01:49 Msg:596 Call:3980 Lines:16
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89 <------- ___ & / \ __ ___, - | o \' & |o ,' \__ _/ ai
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90
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91
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92 Send me some mail sometime! I'll write back!!!
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93
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94 <------- ____
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95 &&& / \ __ _____,
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96 `-- | o \ ` &&/
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97 `| | o },-'
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98 \____( )__/ David Bleckmann
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99 ,' \' \ UUCP: {tektronix,hp-pcd}!orstcs!jacobs!bleckmd
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100 /~~~~~~|. | .}~~~\ Internet/CSNet: bleckmd@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
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101 ,-----( . | .}--. US Mail: 411 SW 9th
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102 | . /\___/ Corvallis, OR 97333
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103 `----^,\ \
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104 \_ | ACK!
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008=Usr:4 Milchar 09/25/87 23:12 Msg:598 Call:4006 Lines:46
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105 @##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@#
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106 Irindall had plans for himself.
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107 His plans didn't include being stranded on a backwater planet like
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108 Aerth, but then Irin's plans hardly ever came to anything.
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109 Unlike the wealthy Yggin passing by him on the street, Irindall was a
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110 "mutie." Because of this small fact, he was a slender, blue humanoid
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111 with special glands in his extremities. He could secrete a sticky
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112 substance that allowed him to cling to walls and scale the steepest
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113 inclines. This talent proved itself to be exceedingly useful in his
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114 current employment, the theft of whatever he could get away with. He
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115 made the Yggin pay for their ridicule of him, the way that their eyes held
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116 an amused contempt of him and his kind. Irin often became angry at this,
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117 and upon occasion damaged one of his tormentors.
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118 But not now. Not tonight. Irin had other plans.
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119 Irindall slipped past the workers returning home in the fading sunlight,
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120 unseen in the increasing gloom. He was entering the fringe of Tchyr that
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121 was near the 'port itself. He sought the new place he had heard about. A
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122 new Gate had brought another race, and one of them opened an establishment.
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123 There were rumors. Irin wanted to find if there was any truth behind them.
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124 Making his way through the streets, Irin came upon a building of a type
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125 he had never seen before. It was comprised of a brown, rough, strange
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126 nonmetallic substance. He touched a wall. A bit of the stuff came off in
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127 his hand, revealing another smooth surface underneath. He smelled it. It
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128 reminded him of a plant.
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129 Festive sounds floated through the open door. Irin drifted into the
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130 odd building, enchanted by the promise of relaxation. A voice near his ear
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131 disrupted Irin's thoughts.
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132 "Irindall Tanarihun? I have a proposition for you. Talents such as
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133 yours should not go unused."
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134 Irin spun about, seeking the voice. He found that it belonged to a
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135 short, dark haired Yggin that held some respect in his eyes, not the
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136 ridicule. Irin was so startled by this that he allowed his curiosity to
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137 overcome his caution, and followed the Yggin to a booth in a darker section
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138 of the building.
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139 The Yggin wasted no time. "I am assembling a team of beings to explore
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140 the Sclanbu Zone. I would like to employ you, despite your dislike for
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141 humans who are what you call 'Yggin.' Some of the members of the team may
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142 be 'pure humans,' and I don't want that affecting performance."
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143 Irin finally understood. The human was mutie, after all. A telepath.
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144 "You would be paid thirty thousand credits, plus a bonus for recovered
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145 artifacts. We will depart when I finish recuiting, in a few days time.
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146 Have you questions?"
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147 Irin knew it was a rhetorical question. "No. I accept. You will find
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148 me when the time comes?"
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149 "Yes. Excuse me. I go to find other candidates."
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150 @##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@#
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009=Usr:67 09/26/87 06:16 Msg:599 Call:4010 Lines:10
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151 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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152 leonard- i am the one that entered the text and it was because of you
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153 that i could not logg back on to finish that message. i was unfortunatley
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154 broken in by a call waiting that . i did not like the tone of your
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155 message (pardon the phrasiology). i have as much right here as you do since
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156 i still after months of being back have retained my access. i do not like
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157 being brushed off like somesort of underling that does not know what he is
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158 doing with the system(hence in my age a DWID).please disregard but dont
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159 disregard get the message?
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160 |||||||||||||||||||||||||YES FROM THE GRAVE (KING SILICON)|||||||||||||||||
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010=Usr:67 09/26/87 10:54 Msg:600 Call:4011 Lines:1
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161
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011=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 09/26/87 14:55 Msg:601 Call:4015 Lines:11
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162 Before you get too hot and bothered, I suggest you reread Leonards message.
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163 he was not referring to your message, but the 'one before TED's'. Yours
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164 was 'after' TED's message. Further, The entire message was commenting
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165 about the first message on the disk. The first message was TED's as
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166 Leonard stated, indicating that the message immediately prior to his
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167 message with the obscur quotation is not considered to be a 'real' top
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168 of disk message since it is always there, and has been for a year now.
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169 Unless you claim to be the person entering the quotation, he was not
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170 talking about you. And since I am the person who enters said quotations,
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171 he was talking about me.
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172 ***********************************************************************
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012=Usr:164 up.
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@@@@@@@@@@P 09/26/87 15:06 Msg:602 Call:4016 Lines:10
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173 AIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIARAIRAIRIAIRAIRAIRAIRAIR
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174
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175 #####
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176 # # Mutate Now,
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177 # # #
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178 # # # # Avoid the rush.
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179 # ### #
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180 # #
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181 ##### A.I.R.
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182 AIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIR Arthur Ernest Wright AIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIR
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013=Usr:4 Milchar 09/26/87 15:25 Msg:604 Call:4017 Lines:8
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183 Advertisement found in Seper 26 issue of the "Tchyr Talker:"
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184 ^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^
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185 WANTED: Explorers willing to join expedition to another Zone. Must
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186 be in good health. Experience or special talents preferred. Payment for
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187 services to be no less than 30,000 credits plus salvage bonus per person.
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188 Contact Jorg Niboh at tri-vid 67041-28539.
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189 ^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^&^
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190
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014=Usr:164 up.
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@@@@@@@@@@P 09/26/87 19:45 Msg:605 Call:4023 Lines:1
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191 I shall not contribute again until I see more contributions. WRITE A.I.R.
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015=Usr:3 Ramek 09/26/87 20:50 Msg:606 Call:4030 Lines:62
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192 #################################################################
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193 Consciousness came slowly... much too slowly...
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194 The rest-time must have been very long this time around. I don't
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195 remember it ever taking this long before. The past was largely
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196 still a blur. Too much time had passed. Perhaps many of the
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197 memories would never return. When the time was so long that
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198 sometimes happened.
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199 I wasn't even sure how long I had been taking to regain my
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200 self identity. My thoughts were fragmented as if they had been
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201 scattered across a thousand million minds.
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202 I cannot die. I can however become dormant when I do not
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203 have a living body and mind to provide as a focus for my being.
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204 In times of non-existance I can be scattered across many lives.
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205 In the teaming millions of one-celled life-forms. Or failing any
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206 life at all, I become dormant, taking refuge in the cosmic dust.
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207 But, when I do not have a body, when I do not have a mind, I
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208 cannoot think. I do not live. In a way I don't even exist. I am
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209 but an image of my life force imbedded in the very fabric of
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210 space and time.
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211 Once before I had spent a long and slow time waiting for
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212 life to evolve into a form that would allow me to think and see
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213 and feel. I waited dormant in the gasses. I waited asleep in the
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214 rock. I waited alone in the bodies of a billion bacteria.
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215 In time there came plants then fish and higher forms, until
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216 after much time came those who could think. Those who could see
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217 and feel. I became alive again.
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218 That was a long time, I still remember little of what went
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219 before, I do remember the explosion that snuffed out the body I
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220 had inhabited, and the whole galaxy that had existed. It had been
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221 destroyed in a cosmic upheaval of unknown proportions. How long I
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222 had been dormant I don't know, but when I was able to think and
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223 see again life had changed, the universe had changed. Things were
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224 different.
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225 This time though it was worse. I,m not sure what happened,
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226 but everything is different. The rules are no longer the same.
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227 This is a new world, a new universe. This body different than any
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228 I have known before. I see differently, I hear differently.
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229 Things I did before I can no longer do I can remember what to do
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230 to cause it to happen, but when I try nothing happenes.
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231 But there are hints of new powers I never even dreamed of
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232 before. There seems to be a great warping of the fabric of space
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233 here. Where before it was just a curiosity, now it is a common
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234 thing. It touches on life in many areas. And these other
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235 powers.... the power of the mind... magic they call it. Things
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236 that took me great effort and energy to do in a very small way.
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237 Now I find there are those who can channel outside energy to do
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238 much more.
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239 There is much I have to learn. Things are different now. The
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240 technology is not new. I have seen that come and go. I use it
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241 when it suits my needs such as now. In this body I inhabit. I
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242 must encase it in a shell of metal and glass to protect it from
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243 the harsh enviornment of the space between worlds. It is so
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244 fragile. And yet with it I am able to do things I was never able
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245 to even dream about before.
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246 Whatever happened it was a great change. The stagnent past
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247 was swept aside. A universe created to fill the void. I don't
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248 know if I will remember much of the past, so much time has gone
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249 by. So much life passed in a scatered form. But this new
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250 existance appears to have even more to offer, a possiblity for
|
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251 greater achievments. New goals to set, new mountains to scale.
|
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252 When you live forever it is change that you seek the most.
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||
253 ########################### Ramek ############################
|
||
016=Usr:11 Z [ \ 09/27/87 09:37 Msg:607 Call:4038 Lines:3
|
||
254 *%(#$*%@*%)@_*%)_@#%+@_#%(+#@$*#)$*%)_#*%@+%#%*)@%*@)_+%*@%@)_^%#$@^*)@*^_)@#
|
||
255 Aha, now we know who has been leaving those messages at the top!
|
||
256 *%()#_%*@#)_$%*@)_#%*+@_(|_%*(_)@* L'homme sans Parity *%@#)_*%@)_*!_)$*!~_)$
|
||
017=Usr:166 **************** 09/27/87 10:18 Msg:608 Call:4041 Lines:10
|
||
257 Well, here I am for what is worth. I am glad to see that this system has gone t
|
||
258 to a password only system. However I fail to see how this is going to prevent
|
||
259 twits from trying to screw up the system. With the ease that I got a password,
|
||
260 it would only be too easy to fill up
|
||
261 the board with returns and "We be dumpin. like the bad old days. Whatever happe
|
||
262
|
||
263 happened to those twits anyway?
|
||
264 sa
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||
265 c
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||
266 off
|
||
018=Usr:4 Milchar 09/27/87 17:30 Msg:609 Call:4047 Lines:6
|
||
267 #@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@#
|
||
268 To: Greater Milky Way Transport, Inc; RTCODE UKS387BBJP.
|
||
269 Having trouble recruiting stop fear rumors of zone drive away potentials stop
|
||
270 request further support from company to attract explorers stop awaiting
|
||
271 orders stop
|
||
272 #@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@##@#
|
||
019=Usr:159 09/27/87 18:42 Msg:610 Call:4049 Lines:6
|
||
273 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
274 From: Greater Milky Way Transport, Inc; Code, ALL ALLOWED,UNLIMITED CREDIT
|
||
275 Continue recruiting efforts ignore time pressure stop request for support
|
||
276 will be met by leave date stop INNISCORP considering honoring request stop
|
||
277 further communication in 24 hours stop
|
||
278 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
020=Usr:11 Z [ \ 09/28/87 11:18 Msg:611 Call:4063 Lines:2
|
||
279 What happened to the twits? I guess this 'easy' password system is just too
|
||
280 much for them. Maybe it wasn't such a bad idea after all. Something to ponder.
|
||
021=Usr:143 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 09/28/87 13:06 Msg:612 Call:4065 Lines:46
|
||
281 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
282 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^@Rob's^^^^^^^
|
||
283 Well, Well, boys and girls! Aren't we having a grand old time today?
|
||
284 i haven't had this much fun since the times when my brother chased me around
|
||
285 the house with a kitchen knife.
|
||
286
|
||
287
|
||
288
|
||
289 oh, A.I.R.--since when have you ever contributed without someone else
|
||
290 contributing first?
|
||
291 (Sorry, I know that was cruel, but I just couldn't resist. XOX!!)
|
||
292 By the way, does anyone know of any job openings for a genius ex-waitress?
|
||
293 Being the sourse of world wide inspiration is tough work,yes, but it doesn't
|
||
294 pay the rent!
|
||
295 ........................now for my comment on the infamous "first line"
|
||
296 kiddo, sometimes you make me wanna puke. But I do know the feeling (as you
|
||
297 are well aware) . Your cynical tone doesn't fool me--hell, I alsays knew there
|
||
298 was a heart in there somewhere, it's finding it through all the bullshit that
|
||
299 drove me crazy. however, in one [BIG] case you were right, much to my chagrin.
|
||
300
|
||
301 Who ever said that two Longs didn't make a Wright?
|
||
302 .......................................................................ouch....
|
||
303 Now, how about some bad poetry?
|
||
304
|
||
305 Sonnet I
|
||
306@ Dec.21, 1986
|
||
307 How can I express what I find in thee?
|
||
308 Thou art as bright and strong as mid day's sun,
|
||
309 Changing as the moon's hidden mystery,
|
||
310 As near and far as stars to this small one.
|
||
311 Thou art witty, thou art clever, thou art gay,
|
||
312 Thou art modest in thy knowledge and thy strength,
|
||
313 Thou art patient in my tongues unkind delay
|
||
314 And with words of newfound wisdom speak at length.
|
||
315 Thy passions are unmeasured, like the sea-
|
||
316 They rise aand fall as often as the tide.
|
||
317 And compassions run deeper still in thee,
|
||
318 When in my weakness I in thee confide.
|
||
319 I find in thee all features I adore,
|
||
320 And know that all I find, there still is more.
|
||
321
|
||
322 ........................................................sept 22, '87.......
|
||
323 even a muse is sometimes inspired
|
||
324 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
325 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
326
|
||
022=Usr:168 @@PThe person pr 09/28/87 14:17 Msg:613 Call:4068 Lines:2
|
||
327 HELLO. THIS IS JUST TEST TO SEE IF I KNOW HOW TO USE THE SYSTEM.
|
||
328 I HOPE I DO.
|
||
023=Usr:159 09/28/87 15:23 Msg:614 Call:4069 Lines:56
|
||
329 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
330 Well, I see that the mandatory seatbelt law will not go into effect after all.
|
||
331 I hope everyone knows what this means- if 2/3 of the states don't have a
|
||
332 mandatory seatbelt law by 1990, the feds will require air bags. Personally, I
|
||
333 would rather see everybody buckle up, but I have very little faith in the
|
||
334 average intelligence of the population when it comes to cars, so I know that
|
||
335 a mandatory seatbelt law will not work. The next best thing are air bags.
|
||
336 Thus, the following dissertation.................
|
||
337 Air bags vs. mandatory seat belts,,,, the liability angle.
|
||
338
|
||
339 As everybody should know there has been a recent battle in our state on
|
||
340 the topic of whether or not to require people to buckle up. On one side has
|
||
341 been the Governor, the Big Three auto makers, and just about everyone with a
|
||
342 cynical attitude to people buckeling up(the PRO side) On the other side has
|
||
343 been a radical lunitic fringe, the 'SEATBELTS ARE UNSAFE AT ANY SPEED' groups,
|
||
344 and the general population who are sick of having everything remotly fun
|
||
345 outlawed and are tired of stupid lawyers ramming ever more legislation down
|
||
346 the throat of the general public. Besides that, most intelligent people
|
||
347 realize that a population who drives 70 MPH in a 55 zone is not going to
|
||
348 buckle a seat belt to save their necks, espically if it is required. Everyone
|
||
349 has their own arguements for and aginst, but most people will concede that an
|
||
350 air bag will save more lives than an unbuckeled seat belt.
|
||
351 But why the resistance to air bags? The fact is, most air bag resistance
|
||
352 comes from the automakers, not the general public. There are no public 'BAN
|
||
353 THE AIR BAG' groups, because air bags have never been required thus the issue
|
||
354 has never GOT to the public.
|
||
355 Why does air bag resistance come from the Big Three? These are the same
|
||
356 groups who are funneling lots of money into the PRO MANDATORY SEAT BELT LAW
|
||
357 people. Why require the use of seat belts when installation of an air bag
|
||
358 (Which would be working ALL the time, not just when the passenger remembered
|
||
359 to activate it) would simply bypass peoples natural tendency to forget to
|
||
360 buckle up? The big three have generated the arguement that installation of an
|
||
361 aiir bag would add 100 or so dollars to the purchase price of a car. SO WHAT?
|
||
362 ALL automakers would have to install them, so the competiton would gain
|
||
363 nothing in the way of a pricing advantage, and besides that if airbags were
|
||
364 mass produced the cost would undoubtedly be much lower due to the economies
|
||
365 of scale. Is this arguement really believeable coming from the same people
|
||
366 who want to sell you $300 worth of stereo system in a new car?
|
||
367 In actuality, of course, the real reason has nothing to do with a supposed
|
||
368 desire of the auto people to 'save you money'. The real reason is that
|
||
369 installation of air bags would fundamentally alter liability in accidents.
|
||
370 Lets look at mass production. Every single production run of anything,
|
||
371 no matter how well designed, contains a failure rate of items. As example,
|
||
372 silicon substrate manufacturing, necessary for producing IC'S, sometimes
|
||
373 has a failure rate of 50% or more per wafer. Of course, most production
|
||
374 runs do not have failure rates THAT high, but they do exist. Sometimes it
|
||
375 is possible to test the finished product in-house, but even then there is
|
||
376 still a failure rate, even though it is lower. That is why almost anything
|
||
377 you buy from anybody, (except used cars, Ha Ha) is warrentied, even though
|
||
378 the warrenty may only last a month or so.
|
||
379 Now look at the supposed manufacture of runs of air bag subsystems.
|
||
380 If an automaker makes a million air bags with a estimated failure rate of 2%,
|
||
381 that figures out to 2 thousand malfunctioning air bags. Can you imagine
|
||
382 what would happen if even one of these malfunctioned in an accident?
|
||
383 Lawsuit City.
|
||
384 ++++++++++++00001TED++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
024=Usr:143 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 09/28/87 16:25 Msg:615 Call:4070 Lines:13
|
||
385 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^@ Rob's^^
|
||
386 Ted, you are a strange man. Where did you come up with this? Not That I Have
|
||
387 Anything Against Safety, mind you, but what kind of mind would put such
|
||
388 material on a BBS?
|
||
389 Curiouser and curiouser.
|
||
390 Now, a certain phone call has completely distroyed the purpose for my last
|
||
391 entry. But rather than deleting the thing, I have opted post this PUBLIC
|
||
392 APOLOGY to my pal and yours, A.I.R. So Sorry, Kiddo. The spirit in which my
|
||
393 note was written, however, remains.
|
||
394 Luv ya, dear.
|
||
395 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
396
|
||
397
|
||
025=Usr:23 09/28/87 20:27 Msg:616 Call:4076 Lines:1
|
||
398 Grannlurk.... September 28, 1987 at 10:11:15pm.
|
||
026=Usr:54 09/29/87 01:45 Msg:617 Call:4083 Lines:1
|
||
399 Go Ducks!!!
|
||
027=Usr:31 Z@ [CA \AA 09/29/87 09:46 Msg:618 Call:4090 Lines:1
|
||
400 Doclurk +++++++++++++ Sept. 29th, 1987 @ 11:11:51
|
||
028=Usr:159 09/29/87 13:36 Msg:619 Call:4092 Lines:15
|
||
401 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
402 This board, for those who have been familiar with it's history, has swung
|
||
403 between a story board, and a debate board. Sometimes there has been an
|
||
404 adventure in full swing, other times an argument. Usually the arguments are
|
||
405 started by someone calling someone else a name, twit or otherwise. Usually
|
||
406 the stories are started by an invitation to join an adventure.
|
||
407 My attempt at posting that rather LONG last entry was to place a reasonably
|
||
408 intelligent and controversial topic up, in the obviously frail hope that it
|
||
409 would provoke a response. I did this because the last story entry was
|
||
410 apparently a miserable failure. (now if that doesn't provoke a response,
|
||
411 NOTHING will)
|
||
412 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++000001TED+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
413 By the way, in answer to your question MUSE, regarding what kind of mind
|
||
414 would put up material like that;
|
||
415 The answer is, A warped one.
|
||
029=Usr:61 09/29/87 16:47 Msg:620 Call:4094 Lines:1
|
||
416 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.Emu
|
||
030=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson 09/29/87 18:27 Msg:621 Call:4095 Lines:7
|
||
417 Don't forget Channel 12 8 pm Friday Oct 2 "Star Trek: The New Generation"
|
||
418 will have its 2 hour premiere. And on Saturday Oct 3rd, the first of the
|
||
419 regular 1 hour episodes is on at 7pm.... (three hours of *new* material
|
||
420 in only 2 days not bad....)
|
||
421
|
||
422 And yes, the weapons officer *is* a Klingon....
|
||
423
|
||
031=Usr:170 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 09/30/87 20:39 Msg:622 Call:4119 Lines:27
|
||
424 THE THIRD DAY:
|
||
425 There was no electricity. Naturally, there wouldn't be: all the lines thru
|
||
426 Portland were gone, also probably the Trojan plant downriver from there. Of
|
||
427 course in this house it was debatable-it was dilapidated and deserted when she
|
||
428 had got there, and even though there were wires leading from the power pole
|
||
429 out front to the side of the house, she doubted that the wiring system was stil
|
||
430 in any sort of repair.
|
||
431 As the grey overcast dawn brightened and wan light began to fill the 1st flr
|
||
432 bedroom again, idle thoughts filled her mind:
|
||
433 *Is this the third day?
|
||
434 *No. The fourth.
|
||
435 *No. The third. I'm sure it's the third.
|
||
436 *What did the Lord do on the third day? Damnation, I've forgotten!
|
||
437 *Maybe someone left a Bible behind. Or some old books. Something- in this old
|
||
438 house-maybe some old SF ...Poul or Niven or Clarke...God I hope they did...
|
||
439 Maybe some Philip K. Dick... that would be appropriate....
|
||
440 *maybe I'll move from this corner today and look....
|
||
441 Then, perhapis in some version of a psychic servolink the thought flashed\
|
||
442 through as to why she was here to begin with, that there was no more Port-
|
||
443 land to drive back thru on the way home to Seattle, and probable no more Sea-
|
||
444 tle.
|
||
445 For the seventieth time in three days, she wept.....
|
||
446 \
|
||
447
|
||
448 more to come..........Justin The Blue....
|
||
449 by
|
||
450
|
||
032=Usr:11 Z [ \ 10/01/87 15:38 Msg:623 Call:4133 Lines:10
|
||
451 Aha, another person who recognizes the genius of Philip K. Dick. Who else can
|
||
452 have their work classified by the following three guidelines?
|
||
453
|
||
454 1) Pre drugs
|
||
455 2) Post drugs, Pre green light
|
||
456 3) Post green light
|
||
457
|
||
458
|
||
459 Remember, beware people who collect antiques.
|
||
460 --------------------------------------------------PKD Fan Club----------------
|
||
033=Usr:23 10/01/87 17:26 Msg:624 Call:4137 Lines:28
|
||
461 ==========================================================================
|
||
462 Tchyr was a large, multi-faceted metropolis that covered several miles
|
||
463 of an otherwise deserted valley. Tall peaks surround it on three sides,
|
||
464 and homes of the wealthy seem to climb them as if part of an ivy plant.
|
||
465 The south side, however, faces the sprawling spaceport that services ships
|
||
466 from across the galaxy.
|
||
467 One man gazed out from a high terrace upon the sleeping city. Thousands
|
||
468 of bright stars glittered overhead, dimly illuminating his face so as to
|
||
469 make it barely distinguishable as that of Jorg Niboh.
|
||
470 A dark figure stepped out onto the terrace, watching Niboh intently.
|
||
471 It made no sound to attract attention.
|
||
472 "Welcome, Ern. A beautiful night, isn't it?"
|
||
473 The figure was visibly shaken. As it moved into better light, its
|
||
474 features resolved into those of a man. He scowled.
|
||
475 "How did you know my name, Mr. Niboh?" he whispered.
|
||
476 "I know everyone in this city who could possibly qualify for this
|
||
477 expedition. Less than fifty among thousands! I am surprised that you have
|
||
478 chosen to come to me, however. You are a loner."
|
||
479 "Been watching me, eh? Okay, it's true. I still want the job."
|
||
480 "Are you certain?"
|
||
481 "Of course."
|
||
482 "You shall be notified when we depart."
|
||
483 "Aren't you going to supply a few details, such as our destination?"
|
||
484 "It hardly matters here, does it? All zones are dangerous, including
|
||
485 this one. It is known as the Sclanbu zone if that will satisfy your
|
||
486 curiosity."
|
||
487 "Never heard of it....very well. I shall await you."
|
||
488 ==========================================================================
|
||
034=Usr:172 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 10/02/87 09:21 Msg:625 Call:4143 Lines:39
|
||
489 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^@ROB'S^^^^^^^
|
||
490 of course!
|
||
491 Ted, you're a man after my own heart! I always said a warped mind is a
|
||
492 terible thing to waste. I'm glad to see that you are using all that potential
|
||
493 strangeness toward a goal which so delights the heart of man and MUSE.
|
||
494 TO THE ENTITY WITH THE THING AGAINST ANTIQUES:
|
||
495 I resemble that remark! (actually, I'm not really an antique;
|
||
496 I doubt that I even qualify as a collectible.)(Being young and in bad shape as
|
||
497 apposed to old and in good shape does have a tendancy to ruin your chances of b
|
||
498
|
||
499 being labeled as an antique. But I do collect them.)
|
||
500 Well, THE MUSE has found full time employment.(NO!!NOT FULL TIME EMPOLOYMENT!
|
||
501 AAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
||
502 And being an environmental and comsumer citizens lobbying or ganization(i.e.
|
||
503 f#$@ing hippy freak, godd*^n ppolitical activist) is verry interisting. The
|
||
504 quote is my title, acording to he loyal citizens with whom I converse daily.
|
||
505 FUN FACTS TO KNOW AND TELL
|
||
506 More than 6 million pounds of toxic waste is produced anually in the state of
|
||
507 Oregon
|
||
508 ............
|
||
509 235 toxic waste dump sites have been located thruout the state. More are
|
||
510 expected to be found this year.
|
||
511 ............
|
||
512
|
||
513 The production of synthetic organic chemicals has grown from 1.3billion pounds
|
||
514 in 1940 o over 320 billion pounds annually in 1978-an increase of 25,000%.
|
||
515 ............
|
||
516 Over $70 billion are spent each tear by government (hard to believe, eh?) and
|
||
517 industry on pollution control, whereas less than 1% of this total is spent on p
|
||
518 pollution prevention and toxics use reduction(which is a lot simpler, and
|
||
519 economically sound)
|
||
520 ..............
|
||
521 Since 1975 3M of Minnesota has undertaken nearly 2000 pollution prevention
|
||
522 measures and saved around $300million. One program is a redesign of a produc
|
||
523 production process to use rotating metal brushes to mechanically clean elec-
|
||
524 tronic circuit boards,instead of using toxic solvents.
|
||
525 ---------------------------------------------------------
|
||
526 Enought proselytising. Write your legislator.
|
||
527 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
035=Usr:11 Z [ \ 10/02/87 15:31 Msg:626 Call:4151 Lines:1
|
||
528 But remember, you can't fight city hall, or any other hall for that matter.
|
||
036=Usr:164 up.
|
||
@@@@@@@@@@P 10/02/87 18:29 Msg:627 Call:4154 Lines:3
|
||
529 More of Justin the blue's work is available on agora.
|
||
530 if interested send mail to eagle @ agora (640-4262)
|
||
531 A.I.R. (I introduced Justin to bbsing, he is neat people)
|
||
037=Usr:159 10/02/87 22:45 Msg:628 Call:4158 Lines:18
|
||
532 MUSE- which is worse, The State Of Oregon chowing down it's own toxic waste,
|
||
533 or exporting it to other states?(such as Ohio, He He)
|
||
534 I never heard of a sucessful business deliberatly wasting money forever, my
|
||
535 guess is that most of the offending businesses on pollution simply don't
|
||
536 have the information available on pollution prevention. Perhaps if you
|
||
537 exhorted people to try to work with polluters on prevention, showing them
|
||
538 how to 'save money!!', instead of trying to legislate it, there would be a lot
|
||
539 less pollution. After all, many business don't have the bucks that 3M does,
|
||
540 and I'm sure 3M spent lots before beginning to save. Pollution problems are
|
||
541 complex, and we really need to dissemiate information on the control of it.
|
||
542 Perhaps if someone formed a national informational database on suggestions
|
||
543 regarding pollution control, it would help. A typical plant manager certainly
|
||
544 is no expert on current pollution control technology, and as you know
|
||
545 it is low on the list of priorities. If he knew of where he could easily
|
||
546 go to get information to 'save money'
|
||
547 (the incidential fact that it may control pollution being secondary) do
|
||
548 you think he would ignore it?
|
||
549 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++00001TED++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
038=Usr:173 @@@@@@P[[[[[[[[[ 10/03/87 15:15 Msg:629 Call:4168 Lines:6
|
||
550 **Happy mutants for nuclear power**
|
||
551
|
||
552@ o-----\
|
||
553@ / o
|
||
554@ |
|
||
555@ \o----/
|
||
039=Usr:173 @@@@@@P[[[[[[[[[ 10/03/87 15:24 Msg:630 Call:4169 Lines:21
|
||
556
|
||
557 \|/
|
||
558 *
|
||
559 __*__
|
||
560 (o o)
|
||
561 | @ |
|
||
562 | \_/ |
|
||
563 \_____/ \|/
|
||
564 * *
|
||
565 * *
|
||
566 * *
|
||
567 ***************
|
||
568 * *
|
||
569 * *
|
||
570 * * *
|
||
571 /|\ * *
|
||
572 * *
|
||
573 <==] [==>
|
||
574 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=Lord
|
||
575 Beaker \__/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|
||
576 oo
|
||
040=Usr:173 @@@@@@P[[[[[[[[[ 10/03/87 20:01 Msg:631 Call:4171 Lines:17
|
||
577 With out toxic waist, thousands of people would be out of work.
|
||
578 -- No emergency clean up crews
|
||
579 -- No environmental crisis centers
|
||
580 -- Not half as much cancer for doctors and scientests to work on cureing
|
||
581 -- No dead animals washed up on beach shores, to be cleaned up
|
||
582 So keep up the production of toxic waist!
|
||
583
|
||
584 If you ever feel yourself swaying towards enviramentalism, call one of these
|
||
585 support groups. They want to help you!
|
||
586
|
||
587 (771) NUC-LEAR: Happy mutants for nuclear power.
|
||
588 (231) 223-xxxx: E.A. Enviraholichs Anonamiss.
|
||
589
|
||
590 Now run out there and chop down a tree!
|
||
591 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|
||
592@list 591
|
||
593
|
||
041=Usr:174 10/03/87 23:14 Msg:632 Call:4174 Lines:28
|
||
594 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^@Rob's^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
595 TED--
|
||
596 You're on the right track!! I work with OSPIRG,
|
||
597 and the Toxics Use Reduction Act I was mentioning is the latest project we're
|
||
598 focusing on. To quote from our quarterly newsletter, CITIZEN AGENDA...
|
||
599 "The Toxics Use Reduction Act will include a statewide toxics inventory,
|
||
600 enforcement of existing anti-pollution laws, A PHASE OUT OF DANGEROUS MATERIALS
|
||
601 mandatory reduction of dangerous chemicals, and A TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE PROGRAM
|
||
602 FOR BUSINESSES IMPLEMENTING REDUCTION PLANS."[caps are mine]
|
||
603
|
||
604
|
||
605 The whole point of the act is to find economically sound alternatives to
|
||
606 toxins in production. The industries will not be told to stop what they're
|
||
607 doing, but rather given other methods of doing it, methods that are less
|
||
608 hazardous to the environment.
|
||
609 <<<<<<<<<<<have you ever been to Newburg, OR? Have you ever quaffed the
|
||
610 water? I discourage it. We've a jar of it sitting in the office at work--
|
||
611 at the bottom of the 12oz jar sits at least a quarter inch of brown sludge,
|
||
612 resembling rust, or possible sentient swamp muck. To avoid being sued for
|
||
613 libel, I wont say where the stuff comes from. ==How about St.Helens,OR,
|
||
614 where a certain paper mill uses chlorine bleach in their bleaching process.
|
||
615 Interox America of New Jersey has substituted it with hydrogen peroxide,
|
||
616 and now works as a consultant for other companies, and helps them
|
||
617 make the switch.
|
||
618 Technical assistance programs WILL be implemented under the act.
|
||
619
|
||
620
|
||
621 I'm really not a crazy environmentalist--it's my job, and I do it the best I
|
||
042=Usr:174 10/03/87 23:51 Msg:633 Call:4175 Lines:6
|
||
622 can. I like it here, I'd like to keep it as clean and green as I poossibly
|
||
623 can. Try to understand; a MUSE must take care of her home...
|
||
624 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
625 bot
|
||
626
|
||
627@
|
||
043=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson 10/04/87 02:47 Msg:634 Call:4178 Lines:64
|
||
628 Miriam, given the choice, *I* would rather work with the chlorine! H2O2 in the
|
||
629 concentration that they are probably using is an explosion hazard! (though I
|
||
630 could be wrong).
|
||
631 As for these new processes, they may be cheaper *BUT* how much does it cost to
|
||
632 replace the existing equipment? You have to consider the fact that any portion
|
||
633 of its cost that hasn't yet been depreciated must be taken as a loss on the
|
||
634 books. The same goes for spare parts for the old equipment. And you can rarely
|
||
635 make any process change all at once. It is far too expensive to shut down the
|
||
636 entire process for several days. (you don't really think that they old machines
|
||
637 can be pulled, their *mountings* and *plumbing/wiring/etc* removed and the new
|
||
638 equipment & its plumbing/etc installed in less time than that do you?) So you
|
||
639 need suplies for *both* during the changeover. And you'll have extra costs from
|
||
640 *any* delay, as that means you'll have to put in a rush order for extra
|
||
641 supplies for the old machine. (after all, you'll have calculated them to run
|
||
642 out just when you were ready to pull it off-line)
|
||
643 And then you'll discover that even though your product is within specs, some
|
||
644 minor difference due to the process change will louse things up for your
|
||
645 customers. Then you have three choices:
|
||
646 1. find a way to make the new process duplicate this effect of the old
|
||
647 process.
|
||
648 2. go back to the old process.
|
||
649 3. lose the customer
|
||
650 Note that it may take up to a year for the customer to trace the problem to
|
||
651 your process change. This makes #2 almost impossible. And if#1 isn't possible
|
||
652 that leaves #3. And if this is a major customer, you may go out of business.
|
||
653
|
||
654 I am *not* making up any of this. These are all things that I am aware of from
|
||
655 the process engineers at work. Some of them have happened to us, some to our
|
||
656 suppliers.
|
||
657
|
||
658 By the way, have you ever priced things like that cleaning machine you
|
||
659 mentioned? Or checked delivery times? At guess, based on delivery times/prices
|
||
660 for some equipment at work, I'd guess $300-500 thousand and a year. *ANY* kind
|
||
661 of plant equipment seems incredibly expensive until you realize that most
|
||
662 industrial process equipment (as opposed to facilities equipment like pumps
|
||
663 and ventilation equipment) is rather specialized. When a piece of equipment is
|
||
664 only going to have less than 1000 copies made it costs more to produce. And on
|
||
665 top of that the research and development costs are spread over fewer units.
|
||
666 (say it cost $1 million for R&D and $500,000 for tooling & setup. That means
|
||
667 if only 1 is built, it will cost $1.5 million before you even count materials
|
||
668 and labor. If 1 million are made then it only costs $1.5 plus parts and labor)
|
||
669
|
||
670 I know that we use a number of toxic chemicals. Many of them are things that
|
||
671 you *cannot* replace with anything else. (example: HF is used for etching
|
||
672 silicon. It can't be replaced because no other chemical (except raw fluorine)
|
||
673 will attack SiO2 except under conditions that would make it useless for
|
||
674 electronics).
|
||
675 By the way, the 100 copies above is a generous estimate. We produce silicon
|
||
676 wafers. There are less than 10 companies in NORTH AMERICA that do so. Much
|
||
677 of our equipment is only of use to such companies. And we are far more likely
|
||
678 to need 10 units than 100!
|
||
679 We do use recycled chemicals *where it is possible* (after all, they cost less)
|
||
680
|
||
681 You want to know about a real toxic waste problem? We were preparing for a
|
||
682 plant expansion. Test holes were drilled to check out the soil structure. They
|
||
683 discovered that 20 years ago some companies had dumped stuff that was
|
||
684 moderately toxic (we're talking lead & coal tars, not dioxin!) and then
|
||
685 shoveled 20 feet of dirt on top. 9 years ago we bought the property.
|
||
686 We didn't put the stuff there. We can't build the expansion until DEQ & EPA
|
||
687 tell us what we should do about it. Even though it isn't our mess, we're
|
||
688 willing to fix it. It has been 2 years and they won't tell us what we need to
|
||
689 do to it. Why? Because they don't want to be responsible for the consequenses
|
||
690 if what they tell us to do causes problems later!!!!!!!
|
||
691 ___________________________Leonard_____________________________________________
|
||
044=Usr:174 10/04/87 18:02 Msg:635 Call:4189 Lines:36
|
||
692 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^@Rob's^^^^
|
||
693 Leonard---
|
||
694 Yes, the EPA has really gone downhill since Mr. Reagan cut its funding...but
|
||
695 that's a whole different story...
|
||
696 I can very much understand your skepticism. I understand that some chemicals
|
||
697 really are indisposable; they're not the ones we're concerned with. It's the
|
||
698 regulation of 7 air toxic pollutants, when 196 toxic air contaminants are
|
||
699 emitted as pollution. It's the fact that communities must test for 22 types of
|
||
700 toxic chemicals to meet the minimum requirements of the U.S. Safe Drinking
|
||
701 Water Act, when more than 200 toxic chemicals have been found contaminating
|
||
702 groundwater supplies. It's the UMPROPPER disposal of
|
||
703 the nasties that get our goat up. Not all companies are causing problems-
|
||
704 Tectronix keeps very good control on the chemicals they use, and have always
|
||
705 been concerned with worker safety and toxic (pardon me while I"m distracted by
|
||
706 my kitten)control. I can't tell you exactly who is causing the trouble, partly
|
||
707 because I have not been given that information, and partly because the facts
|
||
708 aren't all in. We're currently working on finding existing toxic waste dumps,
|
||
709 finding out who did it, and requiring them to clean it up--as established by
|
||
710 the State Superfund,SB 122, which was passed by legislature last June--in the
|
||
711 last week of the session. The DEQ is taking care of this...if they don't
|
||
712 already know about your problem, by all means, tell them, and mention the
|
||
713 Superfund. They are required by las to make sure the problem is taken
|
||
714 care of.
|
||
715
|
||
716
|
||
717 AS for who will pay for changes to be made, etc. Let me look into it. I'm
|
||
718 just a lowly canvasser, but it's my understanding thet the money saved fro
|
||
719 having no messes to clean up will be spent in altering the production. Of
|
||
720 couse it's not an over night project--noone ever said it would be. Like I said
|
||
721 not all the facts are in. OSPIRG has just begun collecting the information you
|
||
722 are asking for (and they are valid points). What we need is citizen support to
|
||
723 find all these answers. (Now pardon me while I'm distracted by my pet
|
||
724 Blackwing. Figure it out!!)
|
||
725 Miriam
|
||
726 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THEUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
727
|
||
045=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson 10/04/87 20:13 Msg:636 Call:4193 Lines:21
|
||
728 Miriam: DEQ & the EPA know about the situation. They just seem to feel that
|
||
729 they can keep putting us off.
|
||
730 You see, if we leave the site "as is" it is ok. But they won't authorized us
|
||
731 to build on it nor will they tell us what needs to be done before we can build
|
||
732 on it.
|
||
733 As far as can be determined, it would appear that the only reason for this is
|
||
734 that if they tell us what to do then *they* bear the responsibility if we do it
|
||
735 and something goes wrong. I have yet to find a bureacrat who is willing to
|
||
736 get into such a situation.
|
||
737 It took them less than 6 months to determine that there is no appreciable
|
||
738 hazard from leaving the stuff in the ground (until it can be removed "someday")
|
||
739 but in the 2 years since there has been no progress towards a final solution.
|
||
740 You'd think they'd at least have some sort of preliminary plan.
|
||
741 Another problem is that when the stuff was dumped it was dumped legally! And
|
||
742 the companies that did the dumping either no longer exist or have been bought
|
||
743 out by other companies (who cannot be held liable!). So they can't just tell
|
||
744 somebody else to clean it up. (In case you haven't noticed, almost all of the
|
||
745 effort seems to go into finding a "responsible" company and making *them* pay
|
||
746 for the cleanup, if one can't be found it takes either Congressional action
|
||
747 or major publicity to get it cleaned up)
|
||
748 _________________________________Leonard_______________________________________
|
||
046=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 10/04/87 20:48 Msg:637 Call:4196 Lines:46
|
||
749 One minor correction Leonard... when a company is bought by another company,
|
||
750 It buys both the assets *and* liabilities. As long as the company charter
|
||
751 exists (and thus the company existing as an entity) it is fully liable
|
||
752 for all its past deeds as is any other entity. The only escape from
|
||
753 this that is allowed by law is bankruptcy, and even there there is no
|
||
754 escape for somethings, such as misdeeds deemed as being fruadulant
|
||
755 there is *no* escape. Who is liable for these? The board of directors
|
||
756 and owners of the company. The exact distribution of blame gets messy
|
||
757 and you need to be up on current corporate law to know what the current
|
||
758 legal definition is, but what they usually try to do is pin the blame
|
||
759 on the individuals who were "controlling" the activities of the company
|
||
760 at the time of the incident. Failing that they will without hesitation
|
||
761 transfer the blame to those *currently* in control.
|
||
762 A corporation is an entity by law, and thus is fully liable for its
|
||
763 actions. It is not possible to escape them. If the company is sold,
|
||
764 the liablities follow. If the company is disolved, the previous owners
|
||
765 still are held liable for past frauduant activities. In the case of
|
||
766 pollution I don't think we can say that there was fruad involved
|
||
767 in most cases since it was usually disposed of within legal guidelines.
|
||
768 probably in most cases they just didn't know any better. In a few others
|
||
769 they may have known better, but as long as thre was no legal requirement
|
||
770 otherwise we cannot call it fraud. So in cases where the company has
|
||
771 gone out of business there is no real recourse. But for those that
|
||
772 still exist whether they are owned by another group or not, there is
|
||
773 legal recourse that can be taken.
|
||
774 The main thing to remember here is that a corporation is considered an
|
||
775 entity. And with a few exceptions it is largely treated as one by law.
|
||
776 That means it is liable for its own actions as long as its charter exists.
|
||
777 I should also mention that just starting another company and transfering
|
||
778 everything to the new company does not void you of any of the old company's
|
||
779 liablities. The law may invalidate such transactions when they are obviously
|
||
780 made with intent to avoid liability. Again for the current determination of
|
||
781 what consitutes avoidance you would have to look into the current corporate
|
||
782 laws.
|
||
783 I agree that we seem to be spending far too much time on blame finding, but
|
||
784 then that is what our legal system is oriented around. The blame must be
|
||
785 placed against one individual and they must pay. I myself disagree with
|
||
786 this methodlogy, I have always felt that the proper solution to a problem
|
||
787 is to find the best way to correct it and find the best way to prevent
|
||
788 it happening again. But that is a much more difficult thing to do. It is
|
||
789 far easier (and more lucrative for the lawers) to use the advisarial
|
||
790 system of blame placing. Find a scape goat place the blame on him and
|
||
791 sit back all happy that the problem has been solved for today. Worry
|
||
792 about tomorrow when it comes. If it happens again all the better,
|
||
793 job security you know....
|
||
794 *************************** CM ****************************************
|
||
047=Usr:177 10/04/87 22:36 Msg:638 Call:4200 Lines:22
|
||
795 *****************************************************************************
|
||
796 "Reconciliations"
|
||
797 You find yourself outside Hell's gates
|
||
798 On Judgement Day, of all dates.
|
||
799 Murderer, rapist, comitter of vice,
|
||
800 Hell no, you weren't very nice!
|
||
801 Take a ride on a bat from Hell
|
||
802 It will guide your journey so follow it well
|
||
803 Plummet down to where Lucifer fell,
|
||
804 Where beasts most evil in darkness dwell.
|
||
805 You see your guide,
|
||
806 His head split wide,
|
||
807 Blood and brains dripping outside.
|
||
808 He beckons you near,
|
||
809 Says, "Now you fear",
|
||
810 His rotting teeth in a grin so wide.
|
||
811 "A life of sin he called his own"
|
||
812 Reads the inscription on your gravestone
|
||
813 Now quite dead is your flesh and bone
|
||
814 And you must reap what you have sown.
|
||
815
|
||
816 jcpI
|
||
048=Usr:174 10/05/87 11:24 Msg:639 Call:4204 Lines:20
|
||
817 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^@Rob's^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
818 Leonard and CM(have we met?)
|
||
819 Under the State Superfund, the companies who did the dumping are responsible
|
||
820 for cleaning. If the dump is an "orphan", that is, the company cannot be
|
||
821 found, the law provides that IT WILL BE TAKEN CRE OF. Whether or not the site
|
||
822 was legal when it ws dumped, if there is a chance of it becoming hazardous to
|
||
823 the general public, it will be cleaned up. I will try to get a copy of the
|
||
824 bill and post it for you. Again, talk to the DEQ, and bring up the Superfund--
|
||
825 I'd like to here what they have to say. Get them to talk LAW.
|
||
826 <if I might ask, for whom do you work</ and who had the site previous
|
||
827 to your company? I'll do a little research...>
|
||
828 .........................................
|
||
829 Stone and Sea are deep in life,
|
||
830 two unalterable symbols of the world:
|
||
831 permanence at rest, and permanence in motion;
|
||
832 Participants in the Power that remains.
|
||
833 STeven R. Donaldson
|
||
834 Did You intend
|
||
835 that beauty and truth should pass utterly
|
||
836 fro the Earth?
|
||
049=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 10/05/87 22:28 Msg:640 Call:4221 Lines:5
|
||
837 ************************************************************************
|
||
838 MUSE: I don't think we've met, I don't remember anyway.
|
||
839 CM is short for CISTOP MIKEY. When my fingers get tired I have a habit
|
||
840 of shortening it to CM.
|
||
841 **************************** CISTOP MIKEY *******************************
|
||
050=Usr:159 10/05/87 22:47 Msg:641 Call:4222 Lines:21
|
||
842 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
843 One more word on the 'hazardous chemicals' debate,
|
||
844 Leonard, I sympathize with your companies problem. What you should have done
|
||
845 is tested, destroyed the results, then built on the land anyway. Then if EPA
|
||
846 got on your case you would be blameless because you 'didn't know' (Right?)
|
||
847 Anyway, one flaw with your logic above is this- If a governmental regulation
|
||
848 applies to all the companies in the same business (such as a requirement to
|
||
849 switch to a different chemical) then they ALL will have the same problems
|
||
850 switching over, and NONE will gain a competitive advantage. If EVERYONES
|
||
851 product is altered because of a chemical change the customer will have to
|
||
852 just 'stick it'. Anyway, we only care, in the long run, about chemicals
|
||
853 released from the plant. Personally, I don't care if you piss on your silicon
|
||
854 wafers to get them to etch-- as long as you keep the chemicals contained.
|
||
855 I suspect the only way you will ever get action out of the EPA is to
|
||
856 talk to the Governor, or your congressman.
|
||
857 One last word about pollution- let us not forget the largest polluter of
|
||
858 all, surpassing all the industries put together, NATURE.
|
||
859 Forests, oceans, deserts; they all release more particulates, odors,
|
||
860 sediment, and chemicals than any number of industries.
|
||
861 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++00000001TED+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
||
862 off
|
||
051=Usr:21 Z0 [0 \0 10/05/87 23:06 Msg:642 Call:4223 Lines:19
|
||
863 FMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFM
|
||
864 .
|
||
865 Argh! Argh! Argh! Argh! Argh! Argh! Argh! Argh! Argh!
|
||
866 .
|
||
867 Oh, the wondrous joys of playing Larn! It's just so much fun!
|
||
868 Where else can you spend 2 hours and 45 minutes advancing your
|
||
869 character to "Warlord" level, only to have him die because he fell
|
||
870 into a "Bottomless Pit"? Oh yes, how I love Larn... Where's my
|
||
871 hammer? Oh well, I'll probably start over again in the morning.
|
||
872 .
|
||
873 To The Muse: I must protest! While I'll agree that you're young,
|
||
874 I don't think you're in "bad shape". Hope you enjoy working for
|
||
875 OSPIRG. As to your problems with the kitten and the Blackwing,
|
||
876 just give them a few good strokes and they'll calm down (well, at
|
||
877 least the kitten will, I don't know about the Blackwing). ;-)
|
||
878 .
|
||
879 Fable Master
|
||
880 .
|
||
881 FMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFM
|
||
052=Usr:174 10/06/87 11:34 Msg:643 Call:4229 Lines:65
|
||
882 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^@Rob's^^^^^^^
|
||
883 More info has come in:
|
||
884 MAJOR COPONENTS OF THE OREGON TOXICS USE REDUCTION ACT WILL INCLUDE:
|
||
885 ****Statewide Toxics Inventory
|
||
886 Companies will have to report the types and amounts of toxics they are
|
||
887 using and make plans for reducing their toxics use.
|
||
888 ****Tough Enforcement of Our Anti-Pollution Laws
|
||
889 Citizens an workers will have the right t monitor businesses' use of toxics
|
||
890 and their reduction plans and actions.
|
||
891 ****Phase-Out of Dangerous Toxics
|
||
892 Chemicals that couse cancer and birth defects will be phased out of use,
|
||
893 and the sale of all toxins will be taxed ti discourage use.
|
||
894 ****Mandatory Reduction of Toxics
|
||
895 Companies will be required to reduce their use of toxics to the extent
|
||
896 economically practical.
|
||
897 ****Technical Assistance
|
||
898 Programs will be established to help busineeesses who want to switch to
|
||
899 use reduction methods but don't yet have the know-how.
|
||
900 .................................
|
||
901 Does this help clear up a few points, Leonard? Hope so! I'm still working
|
||
902 on getting a copy of the Superfund, so hang tight...
|
||
903 #####CM-nice ta meecha
|
||
904 #####Fable Master-do I know you? you obviously know me, or you're just quick
|
||
905 to catch my straight lines (they were pretty obvious; hell, they ARE pretty
|
||
906 obvious!!)
|
||
907 ####The General Public-I' getting off my soap box for just a few minutes here,
|
||
908 AAUGH!! sight of relief! OOOMIGAWD, my feet are just KILLING ME!! If I don't
|
||
909 find another job soon, my legs are going to die! It ain't easy knocking
|
||
910 on the doors of apathetic, ignorant plebeans, asking for memberships. Yes,
|
||
911 I realize how that sounds, been when you're actually out diong it.. well, your
|
||
912 brain has a tendancy to get less than sympahtetic; I don't understand the
|
||
913 ladies in their 3 storie houses, driping with gold and diamonds, who don't
|
||
914 have $15 to help keep the beach outside their lovely summer house just as
|
||
915 lovely as always. IT PISSES ME OFF!!!!!!AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGHHHHH
|
||
916 There. I feel much better now. Gotta go find semi-clean clothes, and go have
|
||
917 Lunch. Being one my self(westy lunch, that is), I try to keep those closest to
|
||
918 me as happy as I can. It's a demanding job, but someone gets to do it...
|
||
919 Heard about the now Ronald Reagan line of software?
|
||
920 It has no memory, and no matter what key you hit, the screen shows a semi colon
|
||
921
|
||
922@ x
|
||
923@ xxxxx
|
||
924@ xxxxxxxxx
|
||
925@ xxxxxxxxxxx
|
||
926@ xxxxxxxxxxx
|
||
927@ xxxxxxx
|
||
928@
|
||
929@
|
||
930@ xxxxxx
|
||
931@ xxxxxxxxx
|
||
932@ xxxxxxxxxxxxx
|
||
933@ xxxxxxxxxx
|
||
934@ xxxxxx
|
||
935@ xxx
|
||
936@ xx
|
||
937@ x
|
||
938@ xx
|
||
939@
|
||
940 Yes, boys and girls, even on an environmental kick, THE MUSE keeps right on
|
||
941 amusing--that certain select special peson. The rest of you are innocent
|
||
942 bystanders. So long for now, and be sure to take a good look at that beautiful
|
||
943 full moon; My namesake worked hard on that one!!
|
||
944 luv and tapeworms,
|
||
945 Miriam the MUSE
|
||
946 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THSE^^^^^^^^^^^@home^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
||
053=Usr:21 Z0 [0 \0 10/06/87 19:27 Msg:644 Call:4239 Lines:12
|
||
947 FMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFM
|
||
948 .
|
||
949 To The Muse: Yes, we have met a few times previously. Our mutual
|
||
950 friend should be able to enlighten you as to my identity. If not,
|
||
951 I'm sure you'll figure it out sooner or later...
|
||
952 .
|
||
953 Fable Master
|
||
954 .
|
||
955 Post Script: The full moon is indeed quite beautiful. I watched
|
||
956 it rise as I played Larn last night.
|
||
957 .
|
||
958 FMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFMFM
|
||
054=Usr:61 10/06/87 20:37 Msg:645 Call:4240 Lines:6
|
||
959 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
|
||
960 Muse: I wonder which "certain papermill in St Helens" you might mean,
|
||
961 especially since there's only one. By the way, the chlorine that
|
||
962 is being used isn't the only problem that BC has with pollution: you
|
||
963 should smell the place!
|
||
964 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.formerly of St Helens.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.Emu
|
||
055=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson 10/06/87 21:46 Msg:646 Call:4244 Lines:35
|
||
965 Muse: I have several problems with the outline you posted. It makes no
|
||
966 allowance for the case where there is no substitute for the chemical.
|
||
967 (a somewhat silly example, try baking bread that contains *no* sugar)
|
||
968 As a more concrete example, the manufacture of silicon semiconductors
|
||
969 requires the use of arsenic. Mind you, it is used in the parts per billion
|
||
970 range, but it is used. Taxes on emmisions are one on thing. Taxes on the
|
||
971 chemicals are only a way of increasing costs and thus increasing consumer
|
||
972 prices.
|
||
973 Ted: the changes I spoke of made the output of the new process *unusable*.
|
||
974 If the law mandates such a change, they will either have to make an exception
|
||
975 or the industry in question will move. Period. And if it moves, they will have
|
||
976 removed the pollution, but they will also have lost jobs and tax revenue.
|
||
977 But I was explaing why industry is so slow to adopt new processes. Nobody wants
|
||
978 to be first, due to the economic hazards. At the very least, they'll wait until
|
||
979 they are scheduled to replace they equipment anyway. (3-10 years). I've been
|
||
980 a machine operator during two *forced* processes changes. The first was due
|
||
981 to our requiring more machines, but having to get a different type because
|
||
982 the original ones were no longer made. Since we do (classified process)
|
||
983 differently than any other company, we have to run the machines differently.
|
||
984 Thus, the "new, improved" machines run at from 25-50% of the output of the
|
||
985 old ones. The other change involved going to a different type of grinding
|
||
986 wheel. It seemed to work just as well. Then we got some new gear for examining
|
||
987 the ground surface. Turned out that the new wheels kept grinding just as long,
|
||
988 but produced an out of spec surface after as little as 100 runs. (out of an
|
||
989 expected lifetime of around 100 thousand runs). With the old equipment the
|
||
990 surface appeared to be okay. By the time we found the problem we had almost
|
||
991 none of the old wheels left, and a huge non-returnable inventory of the new
|
||
992 ones. We had to use the new wheels, and since a wheel change takes 5 min plus
|
||
993 10-15 min to readjust the machine.... and then in 30 min you might have to
|
||
994 do it again... The process engineers were not popular on the floor after
|
||
995 that fiasco! (of course it wasn't really their fault). Thank god I'm out of
|
||
996 that, especially since they've had to change machines again....
|
||
997 __________________________Leonard___________________________________________
|
||
998 gee, I guess this is
|
||
999 THE END
|