629 lines
40 KiB
Plaintext
629 lines
40 KiB
Plaintext
NUMBER OF LINES: 628
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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
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2 ************************ REMOVED: 18 APR 83 ************************
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3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
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4 ************************************************************
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5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
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6 THIS SYSTEM.
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7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
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8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
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9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
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10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
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11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
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12 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
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13 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
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14 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
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15 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
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16 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
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17 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
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18 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
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19 use the replace command to replace the line.
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20 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
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21 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
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22 ========================================
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23
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24 IT IS REALLY GREAT THAT ONE STATEMENT ABOUT THE THINGS HAPPENING IN THIS
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25
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26 ------------
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27 Is the prior message a comment on the users, or the discs???
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28 -----------
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29 Ethics that cover only some situstions are no ethics at all, just excuses.
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30 There is more than one definition of "good, right, just, moral, true."
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31 A real truth does depend on who said it, it stands by itself.
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32 As to titles of the various philosophical schools, who gives a g--- d---?
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33 It doesn't affect us, but laws (passed by governments) do. Our own ideas
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34 may conflict, and we have in the US some freedom of choice, but all the
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35 garbage from Agora, et al still ignore the simple thruth we live in a real
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36 world, we didn't build, and it contains other people, with there own ideas.
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37 Absolute truths may exist, but our studies of physics, astromnomy, etc.
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38 implies we will never know them, just approximations. (These are the simple
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39 situations, much simpler than the human mind.) Mathematics gives us
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40 'absolute truths', but only in the context of a small, specially defined
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41 micro-world.
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42 Why do I harp on conflicts? Because they are a very real part of life.
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43 One person alone on an island is free from all social conflicts, but
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44 we are not one alone, we are together 3 1/2 billion strong. We can reduce
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45 conflicts, we must, but ignoring them doesn't make them go away.
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46 If you can't cope with conflicts why do you argue with us? This is an
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47 example of a conflict. Your absolute truths are true only in your own
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48 small world, and not the real world. Unfortunately, you also live in the
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49 real world.
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50 The question of self interest vs altuism has again surfaced, at a gut
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51 level it may be denyed that altruism can exist, but it is commonly seen,
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52 both in humans, and in animals, so it must be real. It can be in the
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53 interests of an individual to commit suicide, because his interest can
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54 include others. Are we only individual? I doubt it, we are a social
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55 animal. (Of course without others ethics and morals are pretty meaningless
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56 anmyway.)
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57 ==================================B.A.D.====0015==3-29-83===========
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58 (later) OK, so as not to be only poking holes into other's ethics, here's
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59 mine: do what is in the greatest good for the greatest number of people,
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60 with the least harm to the least number. Of course this requires the
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61 defining of good and harm, and here is where the stickiness comes in. I
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62 believe that most of the time we all agree on good and evil, so it isn't
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63 usually important, but a valid ethic must cover everything, so here goes:
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64 consider the total effect of your action, not just now, but its entire
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65 echo throughout following history, and if it seems to hurt people, it isn't
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66 ethical. What is acceptable harm changes, though, and is defined by society.
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67 What is good is also, and it is therefore necessary to know what society
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68 wants, and needs
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69 The correct actions will not always be the same when applied to different
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70 people, though: children are treated differently from adults. (When do
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71 consider one an adult is a hairy point.) What someone wants and what he
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72 needs may differ, so consider needs, not wants if there is a conflict.
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73 Consider also that your act may change their desires and therefore your
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74 future ethics. Harm carries more weight than good, so be careful abut
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75 hurting someone. If there is a balance, choose your self first. Remember
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76 "they" are people too, even if their desires are different from yours.
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77 Although basically democratic, I don't believe people are created equal,
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78 or remain equal. I am smarter than most, but my musical talents are less,
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79 and everybody has some more or some less of some ability than others.
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80 These differences rank people, but the rank changes depending on what is
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81 needed. In the jungle physical strength was vital to survival I would
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82 lose there) For a typist or computer operator strength isn't critical
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83 or for most technological jobs, but smarts are, so I win here over the
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84 gorilla. I also rate my friends more highly than those I don't know, but
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85 since I must consider all time, this isn't critical in most decisions.
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86 Therefore: I believe crime is wrong, it hurts people, I feel we should
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87 pay taxes(my, my, wasn't that what atarted all this) because we can benefit
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88 (all citizens) from wht taxes pay for; war is wrong unless forced by greater
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89 evil, but if it is needed, do it. If there is a conflict that has no easy
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90 choice, but is like one that will appear in the future, then make a decision
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91 that can be lived with, it will allow future generations to make the same
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92 decision, and if it is known what is right then maybe the problem can be
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93 avoided the next time.
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94
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95 A voted choice is not necessarily best, because many people choose what looks
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96 best now, and don't look at the total effects, or its effects in the future.
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97 In fact growing up is largely learning to look at things in a wider light
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98 than " I want that candy now!" and putting the money into the bank, so it
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99 can buy solid food nest week. We treat children differently because they
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100 aren't able to choose for themselves. We hire experts to do things we
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101 can't easily do for ourselves, and this includes run the government, but
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102 we adults must watch what they do and tell them what we want. We have
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103 our good government because we teach our children to behave, and as
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104 long as everybody does, we cna allow a little freedom.
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105 Note that this democratic ethic does not include being good to minorities,
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106 except in that they get the same treatment as everybody else. I don't
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107 believe in paying someone for something my parents did to his parents,
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108 either. But it is in the greatest good to eliminate poverty, because this
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109 leads to crime, and deprives society of the possible benefits of the poor's
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110 ablities. We are after all, a society. The greatest good for the most.
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111 Enough
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112 =============================================B.A.D.====================
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113 B.A.D.
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114 You really should look into Metalaw. From your opinions as expressed
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115 above, I think you would agree with much of it & be able to find
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116 better rules than some of those currently proposed. I note that
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117 you started with the 2nd principle of Metalaw and went on from
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118 there.
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119 ___________________________F - I W______________________________
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120
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121 IT;'t aiyd o uslvs n hsicue u h oenet u OFF
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122
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123 THERE HAS BEEN SOME GREAT IDEAS AND OPINIONS ON THE BOARD ABOUT LIFE
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124 THE BOARD HAS REALLY COME ALIVE WITH THE IDEAS AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED
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125 AND PEOPLE ARE GETTING INVOLVED,IT SEEMS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE AWAKE
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126 OUT THERE.THE INTER-ACTION IS GOOD. I PRESENTED SOME IDEAS AND GOT SOME
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127 RESPONSE AND SOME OF IT HAS CHANGED MY ATTITUDES ANDA LITTLE MORE INSIGHT
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128 AS TO WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING.I STARTED WITH A POLITICAL SEED AND
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129 NOW WANT TO ENTER ANOTHER ONE-THE WASTE THAT OUR SYSTEM CREATES EVERY
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130 DAY----RECYCLING----WE PRODUCE A FAST AMOUNT OF WHAT WE CALL WASTE-BUT
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131 IN THAT WASTE-THERE IS MATERIALS THAT ARE IN SHORT DEMAND-IT IS EASY TO
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132 THROW OUT BUT WE COULD REALLY REUSE MOST OF OUR BY-PRODUCTS.INSTEAD OF
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133 HAVING LAND FILLS-LETS START A RECYCLING SYSTEM THAT CAN START AT HOME
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134 WITH SEPERATE CANS OR THE "DUMP"-THIS IS WHERE THE JOBS COME IN AND
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135 FOR SOME REASON-THERE WAS SOME PROBLEM WITH MY MACHINE OR MODEM OR THE
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136 BOARD SO I WILL CONTINUE-HAVING A SYSTEM OF CONVEYOR BELTS WITH A CENTRAL
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137 COLLECTION SITE,WHERE IT COULD BE PROCESSED AS TO METAL,GLASS,PAPER,
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138 CONTINUED
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139 WE PRODUCE MOUNTAINS OF WASTE BUT WE CAN REUSE MOST OF IT-SEPERATING
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140 EVERYTHING WITH CONVEYOR BELTS AT ANY CENTRAL SITE WOULD PUT A LOT
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141 OF PEOPLE TO WORK AND ANYTHING LEFT COULD BE USED AS FUEL FOR METHANE
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142 DIGESTERS WHICH IN TURN COULD BE USED TOWARD POWER GENERATION FOR
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143 THE SYSTEM IT SELF,TOWARD A INTERGRATED SYSTEM THAT CAN BE COMBINED
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144 WITH OTHER SYSTEMS.IT MAY SOUND UN-PRACTICAL TO SOME BUT TAKING THE
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145 BASIC IDEA AND PEOPLES PARTICIPATION-IT WOULD WORK WILL ON A LARGE
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146 SCALE AS IT DOES FOR THE SMALL GROUPS INVOLVED AROUND THE COUNTRY
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147 NOW.AND YES-I WOULD WORK MYSELF IN THE DUMP SITE BECAUSE I HAVE WORK-
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148 ED IN A SIMILAR SITUATION,WHERE THEY WERE DEALING WITH NEWSPRINT AND
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149 CARDBOARD BUT THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF OTHER THINGS THAT WHERE PASSED
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150 OVER IN THE PROCESS IS WHAT OPENED MY EYES TO WHAT COULD REALLY BE
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151 DONE WITH OUR DISCARDS.
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152 ANY COMMENTS OR IDEAS????????????????????????????????????????????????
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153
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154 THANK YOU FOR THE SPACE ON THE BOARD.
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155
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156 --------------------------------------THE O.J. KID. 3-29-83-----------
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157 ======================================================================
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158 TO O.J.KID, I've often said to technophobes that if you want to be
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159 paranoid about technology, you should be scarred shitless everytime
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160 you see a flush-toilet. The Japanese and Chinese have understood for
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161 centuries that it is insane to flush waste into our natural water
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162 system rather than re-cycle it.
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163 To HUMBUG: It's not a conclusion; it's a factual observation. The fact
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164 of your participation stands once again re-affirmed by you--and once
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165 again as you read this (to take delivery of this silver bullet). We're
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166 trading ideas here. You don't seem to understand the practical im-
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167 portance of ideas. If there are things wrong in the world, you can
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168 treat causes or symptoms. Some may choose to remedy symptoms "within
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169 ten miles of their own house". I applaud such para-medics. I have such
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170 skills and spent years practicing. But when medieval practitioners like
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171 you are applying leeches to people who show symptoms of blood-loss trauma,
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172 then it becomes paramount that we raise the level of knowledge in our
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173 medical practitioners. There is urgency for people who REALLY care.
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174 People like you should be jolted into seeing that you're killing people
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175 with leeches rather than helping them.
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176 "Electronic shouting match between a masked elite". You have insight!
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177 We're pioneering a new communication media here. The annonymity adds
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178 extra spice. There should be one of these BWMS in every community!
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179 Standby: the personal computing revolution is moving so fast that there
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180 soon probably will be. MIKE, ya wanna git rich? Dubious distinction,
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181 HUMBUG? Would you prefer that the annoying world of ideas be left to
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182 the public school brainwashing and that BIG BROTHER take care of you?
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183 To B.A.D.: When people's definitions of GOOD, JUSTICE, MASS, ENERGY
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184 conflict, then claims are "tested" against reality. Some claims are
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185 discovered wrong (eg, yours). There ARE absolutes. They span reality;
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186 not your own little subjective micro-world. If you say there are no
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187 absolutes, then you are laughable because you're uttering one. If you
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188 say that we should not seek simplicity (ie, clarity) then you are
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189 laughable because you are uttering a very simplistic (and absolute)
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190 proclamaton.
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191 You're a mental retard who walks up to us on a 747 after takeoff and
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192 says, "Airbourne flight by man is impossible in principle". When I
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193 mash your face against the port-hole you say the view of the earth
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194 below is just a subjective illusion in my own micro-world.
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195 To repeat, Ethics interprets conflict situations, it doesn't ignore
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196 them. If you think my view of absolute truth is not true in reality,
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197 then our recourse is to consult reality thru analysis and experiment.
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198 That is what discourse is for; that is how knowledge grows. I not only
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199 live in the real world, I think in it. Can you say the same? I am coping
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200 with the conflicts in your ideas quite well, thank you. You are beginning
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201 to sound like MOON-U, the broken record, however. Why do I argue?
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202 You're an intellectual punching-bag. And you're losing air.
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203 You say we should keep an open mind; but you hand us a 44-Magnum and
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204 tell us to blow a hole in our head. You say some of us have our head
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205 in the sand, but you continue to invite us into your ethical torture
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206 chamber. I'm merely warning others that there is quicksand under your
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207 welcome-mat.
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208 ===========AGORA CADRE (Merlin screams; his mountain explodes!)===========
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209 --------------------------------------
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210
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211 SEEING THE SITUATION THAT MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING PEOPLE I WORK WITH ARE
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212 THAT THERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT WORKING AND MANY OF THESE PEOPLE
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213 HAVE HOMES AND FAMILIES TO TAKE CARE BUT NO JOB AND/OR RESOURCES AND
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214 THIS LEAVES ANY PERSON IN A HELL OF A POSITION-IS THERE TO MANY PEOPLE
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215 FOR THE FEW JOBS OUT THERE? I WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT A IDEA THAT IS
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216 BEING USED IN OTHER COUNTRIES WERE PEOPLE ARE HELPING EACH OTHER OUT BY
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217 SHARING JOB HOURS-INSTEAD OF WORKING 40 HOURS AS ONE PERSON-YOU START
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218 SHARING TIME/HOURS WITHIN A GROUP SO OTHERS HAVE A CHANCE TO BE PRO-
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219 DUCTIVE AND MAINTAIN SOME SELF-WORTH AND THEIR FAMILIES AND ENTER-ACT
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220 WITH THE PEOPLE THEY WORK WITH-A LITTLE MORE FREE TIME FOR EVERYONE
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221 INVOLVED. ANY SYSTEM , ANYWHERE CAN PRESENT A PROBLEM(S)BUT IT'S THE
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222 NOT SOMETHING WE CAN OVERCOME IF WE DEAL WITH IT AND EACH OTHER TO
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223 MAKE THINGS WORK FOR ALL INVOLVED.
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224
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225 --------------------------------------THE O.J.KID--------------------
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226 OFF
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227 OFF
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228 HAVING STATED MY OPINIONS,QUALIFIED THEM,REQUALIFIED THEM, AND
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229 GROWN BORED WITH THE ONGOING DEBATE OF PHILOSOPHY, I WOULD LIKE
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230 TO THANK MIKE FOR THE DISK SPACE,B.A.D. FOR THE INPUT ( OTHERS TOO),
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231 AND CERTAINLY AGORA FOR THE PROVOCATION. ALTHOUGH YOU SLING SHIT,
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232 SPEAK IN GENERALITIES, AND ARGUE WITH AMBIGUOUS TERMS, YOU
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233 ARE CONSISTANT. AND YOU SPEAK YOUR MIND. I LIKE THAT. I MAY
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234 NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAY OR HOW YOU SAY IT, BUT AT LEAST TYOUR
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235 NOT LATHARGICLY DISINTERESTED. PEOPLE SPEEK, WRITE, BETTER WHEN
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236 PROVOKED. THANKS FOR THE INSPIRATION. SIGNING OUT ON THIS SUBJECT,
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237 HAVING SAID ALL IVE TO SAY, MORE THAN ONCE, TO AVOID SOUNDING
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238 REPETITIOUS, HASNT IT ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED TOO MUCH, WHAT MORE
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239 IS THERE TO SAY,............................ SPAM-THE HERITIC
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240 ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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241 OFF
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242 =======================================================================
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243 TO SPAM and other Philosophy Phreaks: Try "Introduction to Objectivist
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244 Epistomology" by Ayn Rand. It's a Mentor Paperback. I've seen it at
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245 B.Dalton(Wash.SQ) and at Powels Books downtown. Adeau.
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246 ================AGORA CADRE============================================
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247 TO AGORA:
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248 YOU CLAIMED THERE ARE ABSOLUTES. NAME ONE.
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249 YOU CALLED ME A LOT OF M O_ (SORRY, I CAN'T GET THE BACKSPACE ON THISTING TO WO
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250 THIONG TO WORK WITH THIS SYSYTEM) OF NAMES, BUT THAT MEANS NOTHING.
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251 I SUSPECT THE SAME OF YOU.
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252
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253
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254 THE PROBLEM WITH JOBS IS MOSTLY THAT THE COMPANIES FOIND IT CHEAPER
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255 TO LAY PEOPLE OFF THAN TO KEEP THEM. JOB SHARING EXISTS, BUT MOST
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256 COMPANIES DON'T LIKE IT, BECAUSE IT IS TO EXPENSIVE: BOTH WORKERS
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257 WORK LESS HOURS, GET LESS PAY (SAME PER HOUR RATE), BUT EXPECT THE
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258 SAME FRINGE BENEFITS, LIKE MEDICAL. THESE ARE ABOUT 1/3 OR THE TOTAL
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259 COST OF AN AMERICAN WORKER.
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260 THE PROBLEM WITH RECYCLING IS THE SAME: IT COSTS TOO MUCH. WHEN IT IS
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261 CHEAPER TO RECYCLE WE WILL, BUT IT ISN'T. BY THE WAY, COSTS INCLUDE
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262 BOTH THE VISIBLE DOLLARS, AND ALL RELATED COSTS, LIKE UNPAID LABOR,
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263 THE GAS YOU SPEND GETTING YOUR BOTTLES TO THE RECYCLER, ETC. BEER CANS
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264 SENT BACK LOOK GOOD UNTIL YOU ASK HOW MUCH EACH PERSON SPENDS ON KIT.
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265 (THERE GOTTA BE A BACKSPACE SOMEWHERE ON THIS THING!!!)
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266 CAN'T FIND IT.
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267 --------------------------------B.A.D.--------3-29-83---1854PM------
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268 TO F-IW:
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269 YOU SPEAK OF METALAW. I STOPPED READING THE LIT ON PHILOSOPY A LONG
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270 TIME AGO, BECAUSE 1. MOST OF IT WAS THE SAME THING OVER NAND OVER, OR
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271 RREFUTATIONS OF THE SAME AND 2. VERY LITTLE OIF IT PERTAINED TO REALITY.
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272 BACK THEN METALAW MEANT SOMETHING LIKE 'THE RULES OF FORMING LAWS', BUT
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273 SOMEONE HAS OBVIOUSLY REUSED THE WORD TO MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
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274 WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY METALAW?
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275 +++++++++++++++++++++++B.A.D. (AGAIN)++++++++++++++++++++
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276 H@
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277 IKE
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278 HI< MI[E
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279 I FYNALLY GGT TI ME (O TRY BW]S>
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280 I SEL] TO BE BETTING TRASX
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281 ***********************************************************
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282 A FEW THOUGHTS ABOUT RECYCLING...
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283 RECYCLING CAN BE PROFITABLE. THE CURRENT PROBLEM WITH RECYCLING AS
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284 YOU ARE CURRENTLY DEFINING IT (I.E. TAKING THE STUFF BEING THROWN
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285 IN THE CITY DUMP AND TRYING TO REUSE IT) IS THAT THE RAW VIRGIN
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286 MATTERIAL WE USE TO GENERATE THE TRASH IS CHEAPER TO PRODUCE THEN
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287 IT IS TO TRY TO RECOVER THE STUFF OUT OF THE TRASH HEAP.
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288 THIS HOWEVER IS NOT TRUE IN ALL THINGS. THERE ARE MANY BUSINESSES
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289 OUT THERE THAT ARE DOING EXTREMLY WELL RECOVERING RARE METALS FROM
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290 OLD ELECTRONIC GEAR. THERE ARE MANY MORE RECYCLING OLD USED EQUIPMENT
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291 BACK INTO THE MARKET AS WELL. IN MANY CASES THE WHOLE CONCEPT SHIFTS
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292 AND THE OLD MATERIAL CAN ACTUALLY BECOME FAR MORE VALUABLE THEN IT
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293 WAS ORIGINALLY AS IN THE CASE OF ANTIQUES.
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294 A GOOD WAY TO START IS TO REANALYIS THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF RECYCLING.
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295 CASE IN POINT: DIESEL FUEL IS PRODUCED FROM THE WASTE LEFT OVER FROM
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296 PROCESSING FOR GASOLINE. THIS WASTE USE TO BE THROWN AWAY. AS THE
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297 VOLUME OF GAS PRODUCTION PICKED UP IT BECAME DIFFICULT TO FIND
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298 WAYS TO GET RID OF THE STUFF. SO THE OIL COMPANIES REFINED IT SO MORE
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299 AND CAME UP WITH DIESEL FUEL. SINCE THE PRICE OF THE ORIGINAL VIRGIN
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300 MATTERIAL (CRUDE OIL) WAS ALREADY PAYED FOR THRU THE GAS, THE PRICE OF
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301 THE DIESEL FUEL ONLY NEEDED TO TO BASED ON THE ADDITIONAL REFINERY COSTS.
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302 AS TIME WHENT BY DIESEL FUEL BECAME MORE POPULAR DESPITE THE DIFFICULTY
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303 IN USEING IT IN ENGINES. IN HIGH VOLUME USE ENGINES IT WAS WORTH IT
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304 BECAUSE OF THE LOWER COST OF THE FUEL. WHERE IT REALLY GOT HEAVY USE
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305 THOUGH WAS AS HOME HEATING FUEL, AGAIN BECAUSE OF THE COST. AS THE PRICE
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306 OF CRUDE OIL WHENT UP THE REFINERS HAD TO ADJUST THE COSTS. SINCE THEY
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307 COULDN'T ADD IT ALL ONTO THE PRICE OF GASOLINE, THEY STARTED SHIFTING
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308 PART OF THE CRUDE COST TO THE DIESEL FUELS. AS A RESULT DIESEL FUEL
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309 HAS SHIFTED IN CONCEPT FROM BEING A WASTE RECOVERY PRODUCT TO BEING A
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310 VIRGIN REFINED PRODUCT.
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311 NATURAL GAS IS THE SAME HERE, WHEN AN OIL WELL IS DRILLED, SOMETIMES
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312 THERE IS A LARGE AMOUNT OF METHANE TRAPPED IN THE OIL RESEVOIR. THIS
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313 USE TO BE VENTED TO THE AIR AND BURNED AS WASTE. INFACT WHERE IT IS
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314 TOO INSUFFICIENT AN AMOUNT TO TRAP, OR WHERE THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO
|
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315 RECOVER IT FOR SOME REASON THIS IS STILL DONE. AGAIN HERE IS A WASTE
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316 PRODUCT THAT HAS SHIFTED TO BEING A VIRGIN MATERIAL.
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317 SO YOU SEE, THE IDEA IS TO CHANGE YOUR VIEW, DON'T LOOK UPON IT AS
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318 WASTE, RATHER LOOK AT IT AS A SOURCE OF RAW MATERIAL TO PROVIDE A
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319 NEW AND EXCITING PRODUCT TO ADD TO THE MARKET PLACE!
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320 *** CISTOP MIKEY WITH SOME THOUGHTS ON RECYCLING *** 30 MAR 83 *******
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321 IN RESPONSE TO B.A.D.
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322 THE WHOLE IDEA OF RECYCLING IS THE STATE OF MIND YOUR IN(MIKEY HAS A
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323 POINT IN MIND)IT DOESN'T COST ANY MORE TO RECYCLE THAN IT DOES TO
|
||
324 THROW IT AWAY-THERE IS GOING TO BE OVERHEAD IN ANY OPERATION-IT'S
|
||
325 INHERANT IN ANY OPERATION-I JUST DON'T SEE THE NEED TO THROW AWAY
|
||
326 WHAT CAN BE REUSED-WHERE DO ALL THOSE NATURAL RESOURES COME FROM
|
||
327 AND IN WHAT MATTER ARE THEY OBTAINED????????THIS COUNTRY ALONE USES
|
||
328 AROUND 1/3 OF ALL RESOURCES ON THE PLANET AND WE WANT MORE AS WE
|
||
329 FLY DOWN THE ROAD AND PITCH IT.SOMEWHERE IN THERE, SOMEONE LOSES-
|
||
330 THE COUNTRIES THAT UNWILLINGLY PROVIDE THOSE RAW MATERIALS-IN THE
|
||
331 FORM OF FOREIGN AID(IS THIS A CALLING CARD OR INVITATION)TO "HELP"
|
||
332 SMALL AND GROWING COUNTRIES MANAGE THEIR RAW RESOURCES SO THEY
|
||
333 DON'T GO TO WASTE. I CAN LOOK AT THE WORLD SITUATION AND IT SEEMS
|
||
334 LIKE IT'S A FREE FOR ALL-TAKE WHAT YOU WANT IF YOU HAVE THE POWER
|
||
335 AND LEAVE THE REST A MESS IN THE DUST.
|
||
336 ------------------------------------------THE O.J. KID.-3-30-83---
|
||
337 WEVE HEARD SO MUCH,TO MUCH IN FACT,ABOUT HOW THE JAPANESE CAN TAKE
|
||
338 OUR SCRAP IRON AND STEEL,RECYCLE IT, THEN SELL IT BACK TO AMERICAN
|
||
339 INDUSTRY CHEEPER THAN WE CAN DO IT OURSELVES. THIS IS NOT AN EXAMPLE
|
||
340 OF "CHEAP LABOR" PER SAY, AS IT IS OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE REALIZING
|
||
341 THE WORTH OF "TRASH". THERE ARE OF COURSE OTHER FACTORS INVOLVED,
|
||
342 BUT THE MAIN POINT IS THAT AN INDUSTRY HAS FOUND A WAY TO DO SOMTHING
|
||
343 WE HAVNT SEEN COST EFFECTIVE. WHY CANT WE DO THIS????
|
||
344 TIM
|
||
345 ////////////////////////////
|
||
346
|
||
347
|
||
348 I would be a cash buyer of two VIC-20's in clean, unmodified condition if
|
||
349 offered soon for something near $65 (more if desired accessories are included).
|
||
350 Leave message here. HUMBUG, trying to enter marvelous electronic frontiers!
|
||
351 HI MIKEY-I WAS WONDERING WHAT SIZE DISK YOU USE FOR BWMS-I WANT TO
|
||
352 CONTRIBUTE A BOX OF DISKS FOR THE BOARD BECAUSE I THINK THE OPPORTUNITY
|
||
353 THAT YOUR PROVIDING IS GREAT BECAUSE ONE SHOULDN'T TOW THE LINE-I'M
|
||
354 MORE THAN WILLING TO SHARE IN SOMETHING THAT BENIFITS A LARGE NUMBER OF
|
||
355 PEOPLE. LEAVE A MESSAGE ON THE BOARD OR I WILL CALL YOU LATER IN THE
|
||
356 EVENING.............................................ONE FOR ALL AND
|
||
357 ALL FOR ONE.............................THE O.J.KID....3-30-83...........
|
||
358 TO: THE O.J.KID THANKS FOR THE DISKS THEY WILL HELP REDUCE THE LOAD
|
||
359 ON MY SUPPLY.
|
||
360 ...... CISTOP MIKEY OF BWMS .................................................
|
||
361 BAD
|
||
362 WOULD YOU CALL THIS CONSIQUENCIALIST,UTTILITARIANISM? I WOULD BE
|
||
363 INCLINED TO AGREE WITH YOU REGARDLESS OF YOUR LABLE.,,,SPAM,,,,,
|
||
364 ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
|
||
365 LIKE FAR OUT. FOR SURE FOR SURE. LIKE GAG ME WITH A GARDEN RAKE.
|
||
366 TAKE AWAY MY BIRTHDAY, PUNISH ME WITH A BAD HAIRDOO, BUT GIRLFRIEND
|
||
367 "GET OFF MY DRESS"!!!!!!!! LIKE STICK IT UP YOUR VALLY GOON UNIT!!
|
||
368 # # & $ ( """ ) # &&&&&&&
|
||
369 HAVE I ENTERED? IT'S DARK IN HERE -- I'M GROPING.
|
||
370 FROM RAGMOP1
|
||
373 TO MIKEY
|
||
374 BY THE TIME I GOT TO THE OFFICE SUPPLY-EVERYTHING HAD
|
||
375 BEEN SOLD THAT OF BEEN OF USE AFTER MY BROTHER LISTED
|
||
376 THE GOOD BUY ON DISKS ON VARIOUS BOARDS BUT WAS ABLE TO
|
||
377 PICK UP A BOX OF DISK WHICH I WILL LIST-I KNOW THERE NOT
|
||
378 THE SIZE YOU NEED BUT IS THERE SOMEONE YOU KNOW THAT CAN
|
||
379 USE THIS SIZE AND TRADE YOU FOR A BOX IN THE SIZE YOU CAN
|
||
380 USE? "BUD" BRAND FLOPPY DISKS-8 INCH BFD 34,BOX OF 10
|
||
381 DOUBLE DENISTY/SOFT-SECTORED.
|
||
382 -----------------------------------THE O.J.KID...3/31/83....
|
||
383 DN 200
|
||
384
|
||
385 TO: O.J.KID YES, IN FACT I USE THE 8" ON ANOUTHER COMPUTER
|
||
386 SYSTEM. WHICH OF COURSE MEANS I WOULD PUT THE NEXT DISK BUY TOWARDS
|
||
387 THE 5" INSTEAD OF THE 8".
|
||
388 ............ MIKEY CISTOP BWMS OF ....................................
|
||
389 Sorry, Mike, but diesel is not a converted waste product from making
|
||
390 gasoline, but it is is just another thing that can be made out of oil.
|
||
391 Exxon et al can make either, though it is true that more diesel can usually
|
||
392 be made from one gallon of oil. The oil companies "crack" the oil to
|
||
393 get more light products like gas or diesel. The arab states usually throw
|
||
394 out the natural gas in their oil, because it is too far from any big
|
||
395 market, and are just now going into liquifying it and shipping this to
|
||
396 Europe and the US. Liquified gas is however very dangerous, and they are
|
||
397 having trouble finding places to store it near civilized markets. The
|
||
398 fires of this wasted gas being burned is easily visible from orbit.
|
||
399
|
||
400 Another answer to waste is not recycle, but reduce the waste in the
|
||
401 beginning, by being more efficient. For example, here we get beer in
|
||
402 glass or metal cans, in europe they also use cardboard with only a thin
|
||
403 film of plastic inside and out for waterproofing. You have to be careful
|
||
404 of these things, they will melt if scratched and put in water, but use
|
||
405 a lot less energy to make. although glazed slick paper is not recyclable,
|
||
406 it uses less wood to make in the first place, and less energy to make and
|
||
407 print on it, and less ink. We really don't need that fancy expensive
|
||
408 box 6" by 10" that that 3" by 4" VIC cartridge came in.
|
||
409 One reason the Japanese can reuse or scrap iron better than we, is their
|
||
410 more modern steel industry. The US steel industry has just gone ahead
|
||
411 with the old way so long they are obsolete, lose money, and can not afford
|
||
412 to upgrade,lose more money, etc. They are not the only ones doing this:
|
||
413 how many american shoes do you see?, or cameras?, or TV's, or???
|
||
414 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~B.A.D.~~~~~Apr 1,1983~~~~03:55 am~~~
|
||
415 =========================================================================
|
||
416 To B.A.D.: I think a very good first step toward good communication is to
|
||
417 tell like you see it. I do. You should too. I use strong anology for
|
||
418 impact. Nothing wrong with names when they encapsulate the truth.
|
||
419 Probably the best candidate for an absolute is Ayn Rand's statement:
|
||
420 "Existence exists", this absolute is an axiom--you must use (or exemplify)
|
||
421 it in some way in order to even try to disprove it. If you're interested
|
||
422 in other absolutes, see the Rand book I referenced above.
|
||
423 I read with interest about re-cycling. One thing I've often wondered
|
||
424 since starting a business here in OR several years ago is why aren't there
|
||
425 any good electronics surplus outlets around here. In Dallas, I used to
|
||
426 go to the Rondure Co. where they have whole warehouses full of older,
|
||
427 out-of-commision computers at drastically reduced prices. They also had
|
||
428 military surplus electronics. This is one kind of recycling that should
|
||
429 become even more interesting as these millions of personal computers hit
|
||
430 the used and over-the-hill status.
|
||
431 =================AGORA CADRE===========01APR83--1509====================
|
||
432 ON THE SUBJECT OFF REUUSING OLD OR WORN OUT THINGS
|
||
433 GREAT IDEA BUT AS STATED BEFORE THE COST IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF
|
||
434 FOR INSTANCE WOOD WASTES,GRASS,LEAVES
|
||
435 TAKE THEM TO THE DUMP APPROX.$12 FOR A PICKUP TO ONE OF
|
||
436 THE RECYCLING CENTERS $1 TO $3
|
||
437 DOLLARS A YARD
|
||
438 COSTS TO THE RECYCLING CENTER
|
||
439 APPROX.$135 HR TO CHIP TREES & LIMBS
|
||
440 MULCH-APPROX.$6 A YARD
|
||
441 THIS INCLUDES MOST OF YOUR OVERHEAD & LABOR
|
||
442 BUT MOST PEOPLE EITHER BURN OR TAKE TO A VACANT LOT.
|
||
443 BUT THE IDEA OF RECYCLING IS GOOD BUT THINK OF THE COST TO
|
||
444 EITHER SET UP A PLACE TO DO IT AND IF THE PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO DO THE WORK OF
|
||
445 THE INITIAL WORK OF SORTING AT HOME
|
||
446 OFF
|
||
447 EXIT
|
||
448
|
||
449
|
||
450 OFF
|
||
451 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
||
452 AGORA: You never did go away, as you once promised. Prompted by your
|
||
453 last missile to or at me, I rescind my apology to you. Keep writing
|
||
454 your stylized verbage, and people will come to know just what you are!
|
||
455 HUMBUG
|
||
456 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
||
457 ABOUT THE DIESEL FUEL AND SUCH, YES DIESEL FUEL USE TO BE REFINED FROM
|
||
458 THE WASTE CRUDE. BECAUSE OF THE VOLUME NEEDED IT IS NOW REFINED DIRECTLY
|
||
459 FROM THE VIRGIN CRUDE AS I STATED TO GET THE VOLUME UP. BUT WHAT I WAS
|
||
460 TALKING ABOUT WAS THE ORIGINAL REASON FOR IT EXISTANCE, WHICH WAS TO USE
|
||
461 THE CRUDE WATSES. MOST PEOPLE THINK THAT THE CRUDE IS REFINE IN ONE SHOT
|
||
462 INTO ONLY ONE THING, AND THE WASTE IS THEN DISCARDED. THIS IS SIMPLY NOT
|
||
463 TRUE. AS MANY AS 10 OR MORE PRODUCTS CAN BE REFINED FROM THE OIL AT ONCE.
|
||
464 WHAT OFTEN HAPPENS HOWEVER IS THAT THEY WILL CONCENTRATE ON ONE PARTICULAR
|
||
465 PRODUCT (SUCH AS GAS OR DIESEL) IN ORDER TO GET A HIGHER VOLUME. THIS DOES
|
||
466 REDUCE THE EFFICIENCY OF THE OVERALL REFINING HOWEVER. EVEN THE WASTE FROM
|
||
467 THE FINAL REFINEING IS PUT TO USE THOUGH. IT IS USED IN SUCH THINGS AS
|
||
468 FERTALIZER, AND TAR (WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT GOOY STUFF FOR THE ASFALT MIX
|
||
469 COMES FROM?).
|
||
470 IF YOU ARE REALLY INTERESTED, I SUGEST YOU TAKE A TOUR THROUGH A REFINERY
|
||
471 IT IS VERY INTERESTING.
|
||
472 ALSO AS I STATED, NATURAL GAS FROM THE OIL WELLS IS INDEED BURNED OFF AS
|
||
473 WASTE WHEN IT CANNOT BE MADE USE OF FOR SOME REASON. YOU WERE ONLY
|
||
474 REITERATING WHAT I SAID. THIS THROW AWAY ONLY OCCURS AS LONG AS NO ONE
|
||
475 WANTS IT. IN AREAS WHERE NATURAL GAS IS IN HEAVY USE THEY NOW OFTEN
|
||
476 DRILL WELLS SPECIFICALY FOR THE PURPOSE OF LOOKING FOR NATURAL GAS.
|
||
477 IN OTHER AREAS SUCH AS SUDI AS YOU MENTIONED WHERE THERE IS NO USE
|
||
478 FOR THE GAS THEY BURN IT OFF. THIS DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NOT A VALUABLE
|
||
479 COMODITY, ONLY THAT THEY HAVE NOT LEARNED TO USE IT. NATURAL GAS IS
|
||
480 ONE OF THE NEATEST NATURAL FUELS. IT REQUIRES LITTLE OR NO REFINING
|
||
481 IT BURNS VERY EFFICENTLY. IT CAN BE STORED IN CONCENTRATED FORM. AND IT
|
||
482 CAN BE SHIPPED TO THE CUSTOMER WITH THE LOWEST DIRECT COST OF ANY
|
||
483 OTHER FUEL. THE PROBLEM IS THE INDIRECT COST (I.E. THE PIPELINE). THE \
|
||
484 VERY HIGH SETUP COST IS WHY GAS IS NOT USED MORE HEAVILY. HOWEVER AS THE
|
||
485 PRICE OF GASOLINE RAISES NATURAL GAS BECOMES MORE DESIREOUS. THE
|
||
486 RUSSANS AREN'T LAYING IN THAT PIPELINE FOR FUN!
|
||
487 I STILL SAY THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS WASTE, ONLY NONUSED RESOUCES.
|
||
488 ALSO THE WASTE WILL BE RECYCLED EVENTUALLY BY NATURE, IT IS ONLY
|
||
489 A MATTER OF WHEN.
|
||
490 YOU TALK OF THE NEAT THINGS EUROPE IS DOING TO REDUCE WASTE, WHY NOT
|
||
491 LOOK IN YOUR OWN BACK YARD? AMERICANS ARE DOING JUST AS MUCH IF NOT
|
||
492 MORE OF THE SAME. NOT TO LONG AGO MILK CAME IN GLASS BOTTLES (BY THE
|
||
493 WAY, THIS IS THE 'BEST' WAY SINCE THE BOTTLES ARE REUSED SO THAT
|
||
494 THE ONLY ENERGY USED IS IN CLEANING THEM FOR REUSE. THE PROBLEM
|
||
495 IS THE PAPERWORK NEEDED TO KEEP TRACK OF THEM.) NOW MILK COMES
|
||
496 IN WAXED CARDBOARD CARTONS, AND PLASTIC CONTAINERS. HOWABOUT THE
|
||
497 NEW WINE CARTONS OUT OF CALIFORNIA THAT ARE JUST A CARDBOARD BOX
|
||
498 WITH A PLASTIC LINER. THE NEW CHEAPER THINER ALUMINUM CANS. THE NEW
|
||
499 FOIL POUCHES. WHAT ABOUT THE PLASTIC POUCHES FOR VEGGIES THAT HAVE
|
||
500 REPLACED THE OLD TIN CANS? SWANSON HAS BEEN FOOLING AROUND WITH
|
||
501 CARDBOARD FOR THIER TV DINNERS. PAPER RECYCLING IS STILL BEING DONE,
|
||
502 IT IS MOSTLY VOLUNTER WORK HOWEVER AS IT IS DIFFICULT TO COMPETE
|
||
503 WITH THE ESTABLISHED VIGIN PAPER MARKET. YES, RECYLCING IS ALIVE AND
|
||
504 WELL, IT IS JUST NOT BEING RECOGINZED WHEN IT OCCURS.
|
||
505 ONE PARTING THOUGHT, IF IT WERE NOT FOR WASTE THE SMALL BUSINESS
|
||
506 WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SURVIVE IN TODAYS MARKET. THINK ABOUT IT,
|
||
507 THERE ARE SOME VERY DEEP IMPLICATIONS HERE.
|
||
508 **** CISTOP MIKEY OF BWMS THE RAVEN ONE *********************
|
||
509 Just a reminder:
|
||
510 AMIGO-SUNDAY will be Online
|
||
511 Sun Apr.3 for 24hrs
|
||
512 -|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|
||
513 Agora, thanks for the nothing, using a word to prove itself means, in
|
||
514 complex computer terms, 0=0. In any case, what does existance mean? Is it
|
||
515 good? I think we were discussing what to do if we existed, but since you
|
||
516 are hung up on words, not their meaning....
|
||
517 Waste is the nonuse of something that could have use, it isn't evil by
|
||
518 itself, for instance the cloth left when the clothes are cut out is waste,
|
||
519 miimizing it is important, not eliminating. Whether we use oil as gas or
|
||
520 as deisel doesn't matter, we are wasting a very valuable irreplaceable
|
||
521 resource: it is needed as raw material for industry. Glass bottles were
|
||
522 very wasteful and costly (energy, transportation, retrevial,
|
||
523 breakage, washing, risk of contamination, etc). Paper is cheaper, both
|
||
524 in terms of $$$, and in energy. Unfortunately we have no good way to
|
||
525 get rid of them after they are used up: home burning is dirty.
|
||
526 Most of the carton is paper and renewable, too. Should milk come in quarts?
|
||
527 Or bulk, you bring your own bottle to the store?
|
||
528 Things will be recycled as soon as it is worth it. The lack of surplus stores
|
||
529 has always irked me, too.
|
||
530 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~B.A.D.~~~apr 3,83~~~~~~~~
|
||
531 WHAT IS A WEED? A PLANT WITH NO USE. SEEMS THE VIETNAMESE THAT ARE MOVING
|
||
532 INTO THE NEIGHBORHOOD HAVE DIFFERENT IDEAS AS TO WHAT IS A WEED, THEY EAT
|
||
533 THEM. I SPEND HOURS AND DAYS KILLING MORNING GLORIES, BUT THE @!#$% ACCROSS
|
||
534 THE STREET PLANTS THEM AS FLOWERS. SEE ANYTHING SIMILAR HERE??
|
||
535 ??????????????????????????????
|
||
536 WASTE: TO FAIL TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF; LEFTOVER, SUPERFLUOUS; DISCARDED MATERIAL.
|
||
537 (FROM WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY)
|
||
538 ...........................................................................
|
||
539
|
||
540 About glass bottles, knowing both the paper industry and the glass industry,
|
||
541 i would have to disagree with BAD about them being more wasteful and costly.
|
||
542 paper does require large amounts of energy to produce, but most poeple don't
|
||
543 see it what they see is the energy used to convert the roll paper from the
|
||
544 manufacturer into the final package. What is not seen is the energy used to
|
||
545 get the paper to that roll form. growing the trees harvesting them
|
||
546 transporting them storing them. processing them into pulp and processing that
|
||
547 pulp into the desired paper. there is as much energy used here as in the glass
|
||
548 industry. So what is the beef about glass verses paper? simple, glass has an
|
||
549 higher people involvment then paper, so you have a higher labor cost. Were
|
||
550 you to automate the glass industry as heavily as they have the paper industry
|
||
551 things might be different. ANouther aspect to consider is that the paper
|
||
552 containers basicly cannot be recycled. this is because of all the chemicals
|
||
553 and bonded matterials that comes as a part of the paper container. It can't
|
||
554 be burned because of these matterials and stuff, it can't be repupled for the
|
||
555 same reason, so all that is left is to bury it and let mother nature recover
|
||
556 it a few million years from now. glass on the other hand like aluminum and
|
||
557 steel is one of the easy to recycle materials. in the case of bottles all
|
||
558 that needs to be done is to clean them for reuse. no raw resources need to
|
||
559 be involved at all. broken and non standard size bottles can be melted
|
||
560 down for regeneration just as the metals are. The transportation network
|
||
561 is there, its called the distribution network. They are going home with
|
||
562 empty loads, so why not ship the empties with them instead. What the
|
||
563 bottling industry doesn't like is the expense of traking the bottles
|
||
564 this is a people expense not a material expense, but it is most of the
|
||
565 cost of the bottle.
|
||
566 What about plastic, isn't it basicly just cheap glass? well, yes sort of
|
||
567 the problem with plastic is that it is easily contaminated which means
|
||
568 it cannot be reused if it is. by chosing the proper plastics for the
|
||
569 container this can be avoided but it makes the container more expensive.
|
||
570 If you are willing to go this far though you then have the problem of
|
||
571 washing them for reuse. with glass you just crank the tempurature of
|
||
572 the wash as high as you need to kill the bacteria. with plastic you
|
||
573 have to be carfull or you will damage the container. because of the
|
||
574 tight controls involved it is usually simpler to throw the container
|
||
575 away. What about remelting the plastic for reuse like glass? While
|
||
576 this is possible, there are problems here too. FIst plastic has a
|
||
577 far higher suseptibility to contamination then does glass. With
|
||
578 glass you just skim the contaminates of the surface after the melt
|
||
579 with plastic the contaminates often stay dispersed within the plastic
|
||
580 which leaves you with a much poorer grade of plastic that cannot
|
||
581 be used in the food industry. it could still be used as packing material
|
||
582 and such howeverr, or possibly in low grade applications.
|
||
583 What about the 'waste' cloth that was mentioned earlier, is it really
|
||
584 waste? no, it is used and is used purposefully it is usually reprocessed
|
||
585 as filler material or padding. it is not 'wasted'.
|
||
586 I know of very little industrial materials that are 'wasted' why throw
|
||
587 it away if you can make a buck off it? The people who are sinners
|
||
588 when it comes to waste are the consummers you and me.
|
||
589 ........... the exwarior .......................................
|
||
590 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
|
||
591 Five people are locked in a room.
|
||
592 The five are Agora, Humbug, SPAM, an entity called F-IW, and an exwarrior.
|
||
593 The evil genious who locked them in (he thought it was a good idea, one of
|
||
594 his best) has explaned over a loud speaker that the only way out is by
|
||
595 agreeing on a code of ethics for every-day living that also solves the
|
||
596 problem of the room full of contrary individuals in a life/death situation.
|
||
597 The evil one will let them out when a code of ethics, not to exceed 1500
|
||
598 charactors, including spaces, must be understandable by an individual with
|
||
599 a eighth grade education, and is acceptable to the evil one himself.
|
||
600 To add spice to the occasion, the evil one turns off the air supply to the
|
||
601 room. Not only is time limited, but talking must be kept to a bare minimum.
|
||
602
|
||
603 Have fun, folks,
|
||
604 I know I will...
|
||
605 the Phantom Glitch.
|
||
606
|
||
607 p.s. If a man with a superior code of ethics, encounters a man with a less
|
||
608 useful code, and knows that this situation could be easily taken ad-
|
||
609 vantage of, what is the correct ethical course?
|
||
610 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
|
||
611 THANKS FOR THE TIME ON THE MACHINE... BOB IN ST JOHNS
|
||
612 OFF
|
||
613 0FF
|
||
614 I PUT A IDEA SEED ON THE BOARD ABOUT RECYCLING-THERE ARE THE COSTS
|
||
615 INVOLVED AS MANY HAVE STATED-WE CAN'T GET AROUND THIS-MY MAIN PIONT
|
||
616 WAS THE PROCESSING OF WASTE, BY PRODUCTS OR ANYTHING ONE MIGHT CALL
|
||
617 THEM. THATS WERE THE QOUTE"DUMP"COMES IN-HAVING A CENTRAL PLACE OF
|
||
618 COLLECTION SO "IT" CAN BE SORTED AND REUSED AS RESOURCES AND ALSO
|
||
619 PROVIDING JOBS. THINGS ALWAYS DON'T TO BE GEARED TO WHAT THE PROFIT
|
||
620 MARGIN WILL BE-IF YOU CAN DO ONE THING TO SOLVE ANOTGHER-WHY NOT-EVEN
|
||
621 IN YOUR 3 PERCENT OVER THE ACTUAL COST.YOU SEE VARIOUS CITIES RIGHT
|
||
622 HERE IN THE METRO AREA THAT DON'T WANT THAT "DUMP"IN THEIR BACK YARD
|
||
623 BUT STILL PRODUCE WHAT THEY DON'T WANT-SEND IT SOMEWHErE ELSE AND
|
||
624 BURY IT OR REUSE IT?I CAN GIVE A EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE I KNOW THAT
|
||
625 COULD MAKE MORE IN A DAY PICKING THRU THE TRASH HEAP IN A DUMP THAN
|
||
626 HIS JOB AS A BULL DOZER OPERATOR PLOWING IT UNDER AND THAT WAS ON A
|
||
627 LIMITED BASIS.IT'S A PROBLEM WE WILL HAVE AS LONG AS THE MAJOR
|
||
628 GROUP OF PEOPLE WE ALL LIVE WITH DO NOT SEE THE PROBLEM AT HAND.WE
|
||
|
||
|