377 lines
18 KiB
Plaintext
377 lines
18 KiB
Plaintext
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_____________ _/_/ | | \ \ _/_/ _____________
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| ___________ _/_/ | | \ \ _/_/ ___________ |
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| | c o m m u n i c a t i o n s | |
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| |________________________________________________________________| |
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|____________________________________________________________________|
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...presents... Feed 'Em to the Lions!
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by Tequila Willy
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>>> a cDc publication.......1991 <<<
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-cDc- CULT OF THE DEAD COW -cDc-
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______________________________________________________________________________
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Who's this God guy that people keep talking about?
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Some people seriously believe that God exists, while others will argue to
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no end that such a notion is preposterous. Regardless of your personal
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ideology, it is possible to successfully "win" an argument either supporting
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or denying God's existence.
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The purpose of this file is not to prove or deny God's existence -- after
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all, that's merely a metaphysical issue -- its purpose is simply to help you
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have more fun the next time this argument of faith versus reason inevitably
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presents itself. After all, being an intellectual bully is fun.
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---------------------------
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ARGUING FOR GOD'S EXISTENCE
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---------------------------
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FOREWORD:
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If you are arguing with someone in attempt to prove that God exists you
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probably believe that in fact God really does exist. There is no question in
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your mind that there's a God, help anyone that doesn't see it! The person you
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are arguing with is probably an atheist.
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The concept of atheism is largely misunderstood. To be an atheist does
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not mean that you are dead-set that there is no God, but rather that the
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evidence needed to provide conclusive grounds that there is a God simply hasn't
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presented itself. In fact, the word "atheist" simply refers to a denial of
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theism.
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Because there is no evidence for God, those who believe in God must do so
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out of faith. Faith, according the popular definition offered by many
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dictionaries, is simply a belief that is not based on proof. When you are
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arguing with an atheist, the atheist is looking for "facts" that will prove
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that there must be a God, and that is what this argument will attempt to
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present; "facts".
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This argument was originally presented by the philosopher Anselm
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(1033-1109) and though it is flawed, it nevertheless proves to be an excellent
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argument to use when arguing for God's existence -- as long as you are aware of
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the argument's fallacies and can argue around them.
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FOUR SIMPLE STEPS:
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Step 1:
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After establishing that your opponent does not believe there is a God,
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launch into this bit of dialogue;
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"Obviously before I can prove that God exists, we must first define
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what God is so that we recognize it when we prove it. God, for the
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purposes of this argument shall be defined as 'Something-than-which-
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nothing-greater-can-be-thought'.
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After all, God -- theoretically -- created the heavens, the universe,
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the Earth, and all that dwells within it. At least, that's how the
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story goes, and IF God did exist, as I shall prove to you, then we
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can presume that God did all these marvelous things. After all, I'm
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not trying to prove the existence of elves or goblins, but God. God
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is 'something-than-which-NOTHING-GREATER-can-be-thought'."
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This step in the argument is crucial to winning -- do not even attempt to
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proceed to step two of this argument until you have an agreement as to who/what
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God is (common disagreements to each step in this argument and how to overcome
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them are presented at the end of this argument.)
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Step 2:
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Having established that what you are going to prove the existence of is
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"something-than-which-nothing-greater-can-be-thought" and this "something..."
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you will call God, you may begin on this step. This step may be omitted, but
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it's nice to include to add to the emotive appeal of the argument.
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"As simple as this 'that-than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought'
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definition is, I just want to make sure you understand exactly what I
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mean.
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For example, if I'm thinking of a God that can raise the land, part
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the sea, create matter, alter time, and lives forever, and you think
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of a God with all those characteristics except that he can also run a
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faster mile than anyone else, then you have the concept of God and
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not I; for God, by definition is 'that-than-which-NOTHING-greater-can-
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be-thought'. So, if you're thinking of something greater, then you
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are thinking of God."
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Allow your listener(s) to ponder this thought for a moment and proceed to
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step three.
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Step 3:
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Prepare to prove God's existence.
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"If then 'that-than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought' exists in the
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mind alone, this same 'that-than-which-a-greater-CANNOT-be-thought'
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is 'that-than-which-a-greater-CAN-be thought. But this is obviously
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impossible. Therefore there is absolutely no doubt that 'something-
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than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought' exists both in the mind and
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in reality. Put simply, a God that exists certainly is greater than
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a God that doesn't exist, and therefore, by definition, God exists."
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Step 4:
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Now, depending upon the alertness of your audience, you may or may not
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have to use all of these defenses presented here -- you may even have to invent
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a few of your own.
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Problem 1: First of all, this argument assumes that existence is a
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characteristic of greatness and this is not necessarily
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the case.
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YOUR EXPLANATION; (let's say you're arguing with William..)
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"William, as we all know you are a fine [runner]. Do you
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think that you would be as fine a [runner] if you did
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not exist?
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Obviously you are not God, but I am merely pointing out
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the significance of existence as an important
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characteristic."
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Problem 2: If we are to assume that God exists by this definition then
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we are also to assume that a "secret island of the greatest
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treasures thought" also exists. After all, if by definition
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one of the greatest islands of endless treasures exists, and
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it exists because it wouldn't be great if it didn't exist,
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then it must exist!
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This is the big downfall of the argument, but with a lot of
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emotion and confidence you can pull this off:
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"It has already been clearly seen, however, that 'that-
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than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought' cannot be thought
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not to exist, because it exists as a matter of certain
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truth. Otherwise it would not exist at all. In short,
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if anyone says that he thinks that this being does not
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exist, I reply that, when he thinks of this either he thinks
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of something than which a greater cannot be thought, or he
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does not think of it."
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Problem 3: You might find it difficult to have your audience agree on
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the definition presented in step 1. They might argue that
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you can't define something that doesn't exist; if they do
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this simply ask them what a unicorn is (act surprised and
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ask if they believe in unicorns!) They might also argue
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that 'that-than-which-nothing-greater-can-be-thought' is
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not a suitable definition for 'God'; you may solve this
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either by asking them to define God (so that you'll know it
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when you prove he exists) and then add all your own ideas
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("...but don't you think God also could...[fill in]?") and
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eventually you'll wear them down to "...nothing-greater..."
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Or, you might simply choose to prove the existence of a
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"...nothing-greater..." and then later add it is this
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supreme being which we all call God that is this "...nothing
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greater..."
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- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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-------------------------------
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ARGUING AGAINST GOD'S EXISTENCE
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-------------------------------
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FOREWORD:
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There is one very important thing to keep in mind; you can't prove that
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God doesn't exist if you reason that he doesn't exist. Simply, you can't prove
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something doesn't exist. Allow me to elaborate with an example.
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When a child is crying in his room at night, Mom runs in to see what's
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wrong.
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Mom: "What's wrong?" <that was predictable!>
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Child: "There's a monster in my room!"
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Mom: "No there's not! Where is he?"
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Child: "He's under the bed!"
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Mom: <looking under bed> "There's nothing here!"
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Child: "That's because when you looked under the bed, he ran into the
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closet!"
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Mom: <looking in closet> "There's nothing here!"
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Child: "That's because when you looked in the closet he ran into the
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dresser!"
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Mom: <looking in dresser> "There's nothing here!"
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Child: "That's because when you looked in the dresser he ran under the
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bed!"
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This child has faith that there is a monster in his room and there is no
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way, no matter how much Mom tries to see it the child's way, that she'll ever
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believe there is a monster in the room or prove to the child that there is no
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monster. Faith, as mentioned earlier, is simply a belief that is not based on
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proof. This argument, used by the child, can be correctly classified as an
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argument from ignorance (Argument ad Ignorantiam) -- which is when it is argued
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that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved
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false, or that it is false because it has not been proved true.
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Believers in God have faith.
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The arguments presented here against God's existence attempt to appeal to
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some speck of reason that might possibly still exist in the believer's brain.
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THE ARGUMENT:
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This argument is presented in utmost simplicity. The philosopher David
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Hume (1711-1776) originally presented the argument, "EVIL AND THE PROOF FROM
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DESIGN" from which this argument stems.
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Step 1:
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As with the previous argument, we'll first attempt to define God by
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assigning several characteristics to God. If you are indeed arguing with
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believers then it shouldn't prove to be too difficult to assemble the following
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list of God attributes without too much disagreement.
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o God is all powerful
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o God is all good
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o God is all knowing
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Step 2:
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The contradiction in God; launch into this bit of dialogue:
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"I think we're all smart enough here to realize that contradictions are
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always false. Right? I mean, if I say;
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'I'm six feet tall and I'm not six feet tall,' or
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'I have three legs and I don't have three legs,' or
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'Art goes to the movies and Art doesn't go the movies',
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or anything that's contradictory, it's going to be false. After all, how
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can I assert a true and false statement together and call it true?"
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Allow your listener(s) to ponder this for a few moments.
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Step 3:
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"Obviously, if there is God, then there is Satan. Satan is all evil, and
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God is all good, right? If God really is all good, then he doesn't
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want evil. If God is also all knowing and all powerful then he obviously
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knows how to abolish evil and has the power to do it. Why doesn't he?
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The only rational conclusion is that some contradiction exists in our
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definition of God. Maybe God isn't all good and therefore doesn't care
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about exterminating evil. Or maybe he is good and just doesn't know
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how to eliminate it or maybe he simply can't.
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By definition, God can't exist."
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Accept no compromise; God doesn't exist by definition. After all, if
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Art goes to the movies and Art doesn't go the movies, we know something
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is wrong -- something is false! The sentence is false! If we create
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a contradictory definition of God, then it's false! We haven't proven
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"a lesser God", we've instead demonstrated the contradiction involved in
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conceptualizing God and therefore shown that God can't exist.
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Step 4:
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You may encounter some immediate objections..
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Problem 1: This one is sure to come up if your listener(s) truly have
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faith in God; "God wants evil to test our faith and our
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strength!" Reply with the following:
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"God, by itself, is a very powerful concept without even
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requiring evil. I mean, after all, he is the master
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creator of the Sun and the Earth, and is even responsible
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for life? Right? Isn't it possible that someone, even
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without experiencing evil, would have trouble seeing how
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such a powerful being exists?"
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Elaborate on the overwhelming concept of God, explaining
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how maybe even someone from a "faithless" family who
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wanted to believe in God would have a hard time doing
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so without evidence at all. Or suggest that the presence
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of evil actually supports God more than it doesn't -- how
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could there be evil without good? They're concept
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opposites -- so by allowing evil he is not testing our
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faith at all, he's instead providing evidence that he
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exists and that's hardly "faith"! After you get some
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agreement out of them proceed with..
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"Well then, evil isn't really necessary at all to test our
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faith and strength, is it? The concept of God alone should
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be test enough of our faith. Therefore, your objection really
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isn't valid at all, and God must not truly exist."
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If they jump in with, "But you just said there couldn't be
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evil without good, and there's evil, so there must be good
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and therefore there must be God!" Simply explain, "There is
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no good nor evil, simply events and experiences which may
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be incorrectly interpreted as being good or evil."
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Don't expect any converts by using either argumentative form presented
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here, but you may find that someone might at least question why they believe
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what they do -- and to actually invoke thought in another certainly is no easy
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task.
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Here's one more dialogue to use....
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- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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=================================================
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FUN DIALOGUE WHEN THEY WAKE YOU UP SUNDAY MORNING
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=================================================
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God-Fearing Christian: You don't believe in God!? I'll pray for you!
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You: I've heard God is forgiving. Is this true?
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God-Fearing Christian: Yes, of course he is!
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You: Well, God is a pretty heavy concept. I mean, he created the
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universe. He created Earth. He created Adam & Eve and is truly responsible
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for us being here at all. That's a pretty big thing to grasp when you're
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raised in a faithless family, wouldn't you agree?
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God-Fearing Christian: Yes, I see how it could be.
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You: Well then, if I don't believe in God, don't you think he'll see how I
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had great trouble in believing he exists and forgive me and let me go to Heaven
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anyway?
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God-Fearing Christian: [long pondering pause] But you have to ask Jesus
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for forgiveness!
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You: Why would I do that? I just told you I don't believe in him; and you
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said God was forgiving!
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God-Fearing Christian: Oh, but he is!
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You: See you in Heaven then!
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THE ROMANS HAD THE RIGHT IDEA; FEED 'EM TO THE LIONS!
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REPENT, HEATHENS! BOVINITY IS HERE!
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Moooooooooo...
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_ _ ____________________________________________________________________
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/((___))\|Demon Roach Undrgrnd.806/794-4362|NIHILISM..............517/546-0585|
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[ x x ] |Paisley Pasture......916/673-8412|Ripco II..............312/528-5020|
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\ / |Tequila Willy's GSC..209/526-3194|The Works.............617/861-8976|
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(' ') |Lunatic Labs.........213/655-0691|Condemned Reality.....618/397-7702|
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(U) |====================================================================|
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.ooM |Copr. 1991 cDc communications by Tequila Willy 07/20/91-177|
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\_______/|All Rights Pissed Away. FIVE YEARS of cDc|
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