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Subject: George Orwell
Keywords: Orwellian Fear BigBrother
Summary: Welcome to 1984 (whoops,1992)
From: terminus@mindvox.phantom.com (Len Rose)
Message-ID: <cgRRNB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 92 18:39:23 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
George wasn't wrong, he was just a bit off in his dates... Welcome to Amerika.
Len Rose
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Subject: Orwell
From: klarry@mindvox.phantom.com (Larry Kessler)
Message-ID: <De0uNB11w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 92 15:59:48 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
What exactly is happening that makes you say that?
Things arebad, but they're not any worse then the
depression or times that have come before. hard
times comes and go..... Tough people survive.
Larry
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Subject: Well...
From: dfish@mindvox.phantom.com (Drowned Fish)
Message-ID: <HPRVNB8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 92 22:35:16 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Getting sent to jail for the heneious crime of theoretically sending Scoop
a copy of login.c in email, is a fairly crazy thing. It's sort of like
being sent to jail for a year for xeroxing a chapter from a book. A
cookbook with a recipie for Apple Pie... Half the idiots in C 101 classes
are writing login.c code, to have your life trashed because of that is not
apt to make you feel good about the government.
Fish
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Subject: login.c
From: avocado@mindvox.phantom.com (The Masked Avocado)
Message-ID: <9kXVNB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 92 00:42:19 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I think you're stretching it a bit there, fishmeister. login.c, although not
a complex piece of code, is not taught in C programming 101. However, for
an experienced Unix guru, it is simple to write a login.c clone from scratch.
There are even public domain login.c clones available from the net. The
problem is that Terminus had a copy of AT&T's login.c, a proprietary
piece of software. Len is not guilty of anything, not even copyright
infringment, because he didn't release AT&T's login.c, he only kept a
copy for himself on his hard disk. The man was sent to prison for a
year on trumped-up charges because the judge and prosecuters don't know
a login.c from wart on their penis. This is a classic case of what happens
when an evil corporation (AT&T) uses the technical ineptitude of the
judges and prosecuters to seek vengence on an innocent individual.
For those of you who don't realize it yet, those with money basically own
our court system. You better not make enemies with any medium to large
sized corporation unless you can afford to hire a good lawyer when that
corporation uses the court system as a weapon of persecution against you.
avocado
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Subject: ...
From: phiber@mindvox.phantom.com (Phiber Optik)
Message-ID: <ZFZ9NB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 01:51:10 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
What do you mean?
:)
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Subject: what this is about
From: sbranch (Kim Clancy)
Message-ID: <g3c6ZB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 93 08:38:15 EST
In-Reply-To: <cV9kVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I (and others) asked mindvox to start this forum to give LE and others
aplace to meet and discuss topics. I have been getting folks together
for awhile and wanted to find a public place I could send folks to meet
instead of me taking all this time to run around and patch folks
together. there are numerous LE types that would like this exchange to
occur and I'll et them know its now open. I belong to a private :)
security forum with a bunch and wil pass it on. Probably one of hte best
areas I have seen set up for this was on Gheps bbs. It was called
Security and the Security Impared (you figure out who is whom).
Anyway if there is anyome specific yo uwould like to see on, let me
know and I will see what I can do. Btw, I'm not an LE type, but manager
a computer security unit for the Federal Gov. but this is being done on
my own and the gov. doesn't endorse my actions...and other standard
disclimers...
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Subject: Re: what this is about
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Message-ID: <D7e9ZB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 00:16:36 EST
In-Reply-To: <P9a8ZB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
In principle, it's a fantastic idea to get both sides talking.
The reality is that those who could most benefit are those least
likely to participate. The Secret Service is a prime example of a
group that seems unable and/or unwillng to learn by its mistakes.
Local/regional "computer-crime" enforcers seem enmeshed in the
control mentality, and have neither incentive nor willingness to
understand the other side. It's discouraging.
Nonetheless, any attempts at dialogue are worthwhile. Struggle's as long
as history, and change requires persistance. The trick is to get the
LE types on-line and, if not talking, at least reading. But, from what
I've seen from LE documents, what the read is more likely to turn up in
indictments rather than be the fodder for thought.
Two questions: What kinds of topics might LE be willing to discuss, and
what kinds of changes are likely to occur from the discussions?
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Subject: Re: LE <IUS> etcetera....
From: alex (Alex Zelchenko)
Message-ID: <wm1c1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 93 11:50:31 EST
In-Reply-To: <uNXa1B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
When Len Rose was an unwilling guest in a federal facility, an
individual (Kim--Bill V, whom you met when you spoke at a hacker meeting
at Loyola U in Chicago) sent him books. Some went thru, others were
shipped back with a note that no more than 5 books were permitted at one
time. Emannuel sent 2600 to someone -- returned as unsuitable because
of content. Prisoners undergo heavy censorhip.
On the other hand, how about checking this out:
Connected Ed, Inc., offers on-line courses in media studies in
coooperation with the New School for Social Research in NYC, a fully
accredited university. Courses are not cheap, and computer and typing
skills are essential. Applicants for these courses should be fully
prepared intellectually and educationally to work in a fast moving
intensive course that does 3 credits work in two months -- like a
college summer session.
Would the Bureau of Prisons and the individual wardens (they are
the bosses!) permit it? Would the government pay for the education?
Would the school waive tuition? Worth investigating.
Connected Ed recently moved to White Plains, NY. Directors are
Dr. Paul Levinson and Tina Vozick. They are also on the internet:
tvozick@dcunsn.das.net
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Subject: LE: The reality...
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Message-ID: <oaTe1B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 93 11:07:11 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I've just returned from 3 days of "training" in which I got to share a
classroom with 250 LE types...FBI, SS, IRS, USPS, State Troopers, local
cops, LE consultants, TELCO Security, and even the infamous Bill Cook of
Sun Devil fame was there. I've got a few things to say about the
experience. I'm not gonna say them all right now. I need to let my head
clear so I can approach this without the really bad feeling I've got about
the situation. I shall,, however, throw out a few tidbits at this point. I
spent a lot of time talking with many of these folks...They are very nice,
very ordinary people. They are not a bunch of badge carrying demons. What
they are is:
1. Badly under-financed (especially at the local level)
2. Badly under-equipped
3. Badly under-trained
4. (and most importantly) They are scared to death of what they do
not understand...and that is almost anything having to do with
computers, networks, and people like us.
5. They believe that the EFF and CPSR are the enemies of good
civil order.
6. They definitely do not have the same regard for the 1st and 4th
ammendments to the constitution as most of us do.
7. They are essentially good people that are trying to do their
jobs under an incredible handicap of ignorance...and very, very
few of us are doing what needs to be done in the way of
providing them with a decent education. (I know, I know! It's not
our responsibilty...Well, if you value your freedom in
cyberspace, you'll make it your responsibility.)
-Falconer
(more when I've recovered)
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Subject: Re: cpsr evil?
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Message-ID: <ZZFJ1B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 23:07:58 EST
In-Reply-To: <5ycJ1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
hayden writes:
>I have been
>wondering if there is any way to get prisoners online. I know the idea
>seems anathma to the authorities but I have read that prisoners who get
>education are less likely to return to prison.
A nice sentiment, but an unlikely reality. In a minimum security prison
or a work-release center there might be ways to do it. But, the
security/control game is simply to strong a mentality to break down.
In a time of fiscal crunch, the costs are also too steep for most
prisons, because they have a difficult time providing essential
services. The changes would be best to implement some kind of on-line
experiment as a model project in a fed level 1 or 2 institution.
I can't imagine a state system trying it in the near future.
The evidence on the impact of prison education on recidivism is
inconclusive. There's no evidence that significantly reduces
it, but there's also no evidence that it doesn't. It's a fairly
complicated thing to measure because of all the intervening variables.
In my own view, prison ed (and by implication most "rehabilitation"
programs) are not as effective as the should/could be because
they are not adequately implemented. Rehab fails because those who
are responsible for putting into action have failed.
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Subject: FOIA and Files
From: tc (Dave Banisar)
Message-ID: <1VqR1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 10:43:59 EST
In-Reply-To: <VwNq1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I've been doing FOIA work for a while now so I feel fairly confident in
saying that if you request your file under FOIA or the Privacy Act and
they dont have anything , it is realy damm unlikely that they are going to
create anything. They are highly understaffed (on purpose probably) and
just do not have the time a resources to do that sort of work. In addition
if you then followed up with another request, they would have a file that
they would have to givbe to you and explain why they started it.
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Subject: Re: FOIA and Files
From: sbranch (Kim Clancy)
Message-ID: <o83R1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 15:10:11 EST
In-Reply-To: <1VqR1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Dave, where have your work3ed that gave you such experience. I know if
you requested FOIA information from us, we wouldn't thnk twice about it,
but we are not LE and encourage folks to review their info. I have heard
it different from other places though...but only heard. Thanks for the
straightening up :) I need a kick in the head now and then
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Subject: Re: FOIA and Files
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Message-ID: <3PPs1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 23:16:25 EST
In-Reply-To: <o83R1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Dave does legal work with CPSR and is routinely involved with
FOIA stuff.
He's highly knowledgeable in computer-related law.
>From my experience, his comments are accurate: The "check for your files
and get a file" is largely an urban legend. Perhaps the myth started
because request usually generate a form response indicating a
*reference* file number. This has been interpreted by some to mean that
a surveillance file was initiated, which is simply not true. Most
agencies are short handed and simply don't have sufficient staff to
maintain files, let alone analyze them for "intelligence" value
properly. However, this is in part what makes files so dangerous:
There is little accountability, rules for use, or checks for accuracy,
which leads to some bizarre interpretations as witnessed in some of the
Sun Devil cases.
The trick in asking for a file is to give sufficiently detailed info
to help track down the info. Those tracking files down are generally
functionaries who operate on the basis of routine procedure, and the
more detailed a request the more likely they will be able to provide
accurate info.
The catch, though, is that if one has been involved in explicit misdeeds
involving an on-going investigation, too much revelation could be
dangerous: "I hacked IBM's computers and ripped off $2 mill. I was
wondering if you've started an investigation on me...."
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Subject: Re: LE: The reality...
From: kcit (Ken Citarella)
Message-ID: <4P5w1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 08:30:50 EST
In-Reply-To: <VsRg1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Hi, everyone. I am one of the LE types our sysop has promised would
show up. I am a prosecutor from NY. In case you have heard of Pumpcon,
I'm the guy. I tried to look through the postings to date, but haven't
gotten too far. There is one comment I'd like to second. LE people
are people, common ordinary people. They have families and bills to pay.
Like some computer enthusiasts, they are extraordinarily dedicated to
their vocations. Unlike anyone else, they have a sworn duty to enforce
law. That duty, obviously, must be tempered by discretion, and
discretion, particularly in high tech areas is knowledge dependent. They
do need more training, lots more. That training has to be technical
in nature, as well as personal, as in mindvox and this forum. I will be
happy to answer any questions from a legal or personal perspective anyone
chooses to pose to me here. Just be patient, I have to do this around
my real job. Ken Citarella
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Subject: Re: LE: The reality...
From: kcit (Ken Citarella)
Message-ID: <RXJX1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 13:59:26 EST
In-Reply-To: <JH0w1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
bwp, It is quite obviously the cops job to do both. Any LE type takes
an oath to defend the constitution. Protecting civil rights is as
important, and maybe more so, than catching bad guys, and CLEARLY civil
rights must not be sacrificed to catch bad guys. In practice, it is a
lot rougher than that, for many reasons. Not all LE are wonderful
people. The job has power, and power, whether it is financial, physical,
technical, intellectual, etc. is a great attraction to some people. A
cop who abuses his power is no better than a techie who abuses his and
does things only because he or she has the technical skill to do so.
Ken
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Subject: Re: Introduction
From: tc (Dave Banisar)
Message-ID: <JPTX1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 17:30:30 EST
In-Reply-To: <TqRX1B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Ken, I would generally agree with you about the only cases we hear are those
that the press plays up but in the case of the computer community, I
would disagree. When something happens here (eg a bust), we hear about it
and usually have discussed it to death before the press ever writes about it.
The press isnt filtering us the news, its more like the opposite.
Dave
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Subject: Re: hacker stuff
From: sbranch (Kim Clancy)
Message-ID: <sTu11B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 08:47:27 EST
In-Reply-To: <yLTZ1B10w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Personnaly, I have never questioned why folks help me, rega{dless of
their titles (btw, I did mean, why do they help secure systems). It just
seems to be the first question I am asked...its totally of the subject
usually, but I *always* get asked. I usually start my presentation
explaining that I'm gonna teach security thru hacking and tha folks
proficient in penetratin techniques..hackers...have taught me...I explain
the technical stuff we wil accomplish and without fail...the questin
comes up....I don't like these "analysis of hackers personality reviews."
To me its utter bullshit and exctly what lends to the stereotyping I
attribute to causing alot of this "us" and "them" crap..{why read a
review on someone's personality...just go out and meet the person and
make your own conlcusions. That's what I have done for the past year or
two and why I wanted this forum...it makes that bunk useless, but might
put some folks out of work too...it also breaks down the fear that is
caused from the ignorance these things promote...
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Subject: Stuph & Irony
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <04511B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 12:29:44 EST
In-Reply-To: <cF411B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Talked to CERT today. Ed said he had not read the file before
redistributing it (as he has always done in the past)
I informed him of the new way. He asid he would either register or ask to
be removed from the list. Fair enough. He apologized for the error. No
big thing.
Unfortunately (hehe) a reporter who I had spoken with prior to reaching
Ed, to whom I had mentioned the ironic situation of CERT pirating my
warez, had already called Ed. :) Hewasn't too pleased about that.
As funny as it might be, I don't think CERT BUSTED FOR PIRACY will be on
any headlines, I think the reporter friend of mine will keep it to himself
now. (So that I don't see Phrack Editor Nailed by FBI acting on CERT
suspicions in any headlines either) ahem.
IRC: irc is about as hot as they come gang. The FBI & Secret Service
have both admitted to using IRC as a vehicle for gathering information to
follow cases, and open new ones. I've got an agent on audio tape
admitting that. on a teleconfernce Ray Kaplayn had a while back. Anything
you say openly (probably even in PRIVMSG) is going into a buffer
somewhere. Especially the #hack, #phreak, and #warez. Tough shit, eh?
Don't say anything in IRC that you wouldnt say in a courthouse full of FBI
agents, because it may end up being read back to you IN ONE!
Mr. Controversy
->ME
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Subject: Re: Stuff...
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <Xm661B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 93 05:28:56 EST
In-Reply-To: <a6q61B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
A lot of these raids were based on FEAR as much as they were based on
IGNORANCE. Perhaps ignorance gave way to fear as people like Cook sat up
late at night wondering when we were going to press the button and launch
the missiles from our bedrooms.
It is nice to see that the ignorance is slowly (very slowly) fading away.
Maybe the fear will too.
At least until Forbes little cyberpunk monthly rag appears with Bridgette
at the helm as managing editor. That should continue the mainstream
misinformation and hacker-bashing for at least a few years. I hope it
fails miserably. Chasin & I have already been approached for an
"interview." Fuck that.
->ME
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Subject: Re: Fear and Ignorance
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <8Vs01B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 04:44:06 EST
In-Reply-To: <Tm571B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Kurt:
As far as cops planting evidence like nickle bags amongst back issues of
2600...
Well, I don't know if things have progressed (or regressed) to that as of
yte, however from my own experience during the raids back in 1990, when
Tim Foley and his cronies had thoroughly ransacked my apartment and
failed to find any hacker evidence, they began searching my kitchen and
under the sink and through jumbo boxes of laundry detergent looking for
drugs. One chemicaly astute SA made the comment, well, unless he's making
it with drano, there isnt anything here. (He was looking at lye, ethyl
ether, & ephedrine hydrochloride...any takes on what that makes?)
When they failed to find drugs, they tried to check the validity of my
ownership of an arcade-size pac man game, and THEN gave me hell about some
street signs we had around the apartent (IE: no dumping signs over the
toilets, one way signs pointing to the bedrooms, etc...)
I think this WAS FAR out of the jurisdiction of the Secret Service and was
just an excuse to try to nail me for something, ANYTHING since they had
taken time out of their busy lives to coe over that morning and violate me.
Never underestimate the evil of a cop with a mission from God (or Bellcore)
->ME
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Subject: Re: novell hacking stuff
From: sbranch (Kim Clancy)
Message-ID: <y06a2B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 22:30:45 EST
In-Reply-To: <k86a2B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Spoke with Hugh Miller today, he puts out PGP digest. He is gonna join
the forum and can tell us EVERYTHING you ever wanted to know about PGP
and Phil Zimmerman...well maybe not everything. So ofr those
askingquestions about it, just hang around in a week I recon he should be
here by then. Lets see, also got an email from Lance Rose, he was gonna
try to get on and discuss teh legality of this irc capture stuff, and
asked the FBI if they may wish to drop in....let you know how it goes
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Subject: About LE
From: kcit (Ken Citarella)
Message-ID: <462B2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 93 09:59:38 EST
In-Reply-To: <TqRX1B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I took a quick look at some postings since I was last here, and am
glad to see that not all LE people are perceived as evil despotic
lunatics. Neither are the phone companies. They spend a lot of money to
create their systems and they sell their services to earn a profit. Some
peopel may prefer a world where telephone, indeed all telecom srvices are
free to all, but that is not the American way, at least not now. When
the telecom infrastructure is paid for entirely out of taxes (which none
of us, or few, would be too happy about) and defined by the courts or
legislature as a free fundamental right of US citizenship, then all
services will be free (if you ignore the fact that taxes pay to create,
maintain, and operate the system). Reality is that private copanies pay
to create, maintain, and install, and that those systems, as any private
property, is entitled to protection as a matter of law. Changing whether
or not those systems should be for free or for higher is a plitical
question, not a LE one. In the current scheme of things, LE has an
obligation to put all sorts of computer abuse into the hopper with all
the other crimes it pays attention to and to give it the priority each
given LE agency deems appropriate.
Impact of EFF? Useful a few years ago as a consciousness raiser
and a definer of issues. Their actual positions on searcha nd seizure
are hopelessly naive and inexperienced. They are better off and do more
for their members, both official and spiritual, by evolving into the
lobbying group they are becoming.
Can LE be self improving? Sure, LE is made of people, as is any
other organization or industry. Moreover it is one which frequently sees
itself as the guardian who is unappreciated and abused whilw trying to do
a thankless job. But, any person or group changes once the need to do so
is perceived individually from within or imposed upon from without. No
different than the big shake up at IBM. Everyone paying attention saw
the collapse coming as their product line became irrelevant. They saw it
last, but eventually caught on. But you can bet there were people on the
inside of IBM who were crying a lonely voice for years. The same is true
for LE. There are voices inside and outside to be listened to.
Evolution comes, it always does. It can be far better helped along by
friendly approaches than denunciations.
It is hard for be to scan all the dozens of messages on this
forum and frame a response. If anyone wants to pose something especially
for me to resp[ond to, please uise the MAIL facility in mindvox, and I'll
try to post the response here for everyone to share. OK? It would save
me a great deal of time. Thanks. KCIT
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Subject: Re: About LE
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <9qRc2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 93 19:12:19 EST
In-Reply-To: <BPFc2B5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
In most respects, we are as our experiences have shaped us.
I personally have NEVER met a SS agent who I would consider competently
trained to work computer fraud cases. My bias has shaped the way I think
and talk about this group.
I have, however, been overly impressed with the FBI. Not only have they
seemed perceptive enough to know the difference, but they build a case
before kicking down doors. Amazing how effective that is. Too bad
different agencies don't share information. The first time I know of them
cooperating was the MOD cases. Those might even stick.
I have also not run into many local LE types who seem happy or interested
in justice. Most seem to be looking for a reason to whip out the club, or
write a ticket. Why this is, I have no idea. A good friend of mine wants
to be a cop. I told him he needed to try to get into the special services
dept to work on computer related cases, since he would be the ONLY expert
austin could ever hope for. He knows more about our world than any cop
could hope to. But he said that he had no desire to take his computer
knowledge to work with him. He wants a foot patrol in the crack district
so he can shoot people. This sentiment is probably shared by most of his
academy class. Another example of penis extension I guess.
:(
->ME
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Subject: Firewalls et. al.
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <LmZq2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 12:28:44 EDT
In-Reply-To: <eD1o2B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Kim:
I don't think you need to <shudder>
If someone had a firewalled network, any peer-to-peer networking would
almost exclusively reside as a LAN under the firewall. Otherwise, if a
machine was allowed to pass through just in a peer-to-peer mode, it ain't
much of a firewall. :) Besides, any network worth a damn will have a
single host as the sole internet connection & a well configured router to
strip out everything. This would take care of that problem.
And anyway, as far as I'm concerned, anyone sending anything other than
tcp/ip over the wire on their WAN needs to be taken out and strangled with
a pair of John Drapers socks. Keep that silly pc connectivity to a teeny
lan nestled quietly away somewhere.
->ME
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: bootleg's cd..
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Message-ID: <4qeX2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <FHDX2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 23:41:02 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
lgas (Laughing Gas) writes:
> I trust that came out okay. That is the result of an alliance between
> Scanman and Bootleg. Scanman, being himself, stabbed Bootleg in the back,
> and released this without Bootleg. Bootleg is now trying to gather a
> larger amount of text files from people to put out his own disc for a
> lower price, with more information.
That's just great, so Bootleg and Scanman and now LOD Communications, all
three ruthless corporate powers, will be competing for the motherload of
profits to be gained by distributing old 40 column textfiles that no one
really gives a shit about in the real world except 10-20 people who were
around back then AND still care enough about it today AND have CD-ROM
drives in order to actually buy these wonderful products.
You know in business school they taught us that one must try to capture a
niche in the market, but somehow I don't think 30 people in United States
is exactly a large enough niche.
Umm.. what would happen if I put Bootleg's CD-ROM into my portable music
CD player? Would I hear hypnotic static which would turn me into an idiot
capable of typing in only 40 columns uppercase? Would I become a
peglegged wonder idiot savant and conquer the multimedia market with my
awesome CD-ROM products? Would my head explode? Inquiring minds want to
know.
Thug
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: LE: The reality...
From: mnemonic (Mike Godwin)
Message-ID: <qkiX2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <P7JX1B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 01:03:37 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
kcit (Ken Citarella) writes:
> The SJG case is often cited as an example of things
> gone wrong. What the public never hears about are all the cases handled
> quite calmly with no constitutional ruffles and with appropriate
> dispositions. Remember, you only hear about what the media choses to
> tell you.
Ken, what you say here is true, but it's also the case that the public
never hears about countless cases that are handled badly. For example,
the public doesn't hear about how Bill Cook, who knew better, called
the E911 document a "program," or how that "program's" valuation was
inflated, or how three people were sentenced based on that false
valuation, or about how no one was ever made accountable for that false
information.
And that's only one other case. There are countless more.
--Mike
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: novell hacking stuff
From: mnemonic (Mike Godwin)
Message-ID: <8oJX2B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <y06a2B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 01:27:54 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
sbranch (Kim Clancy) writes:
> here by then. Lets see, also got an email from Lance Rose, he was gonna
> try to get on and discuss teh legality of this irc capture stuff, and
> asked the FBI if they may wish to drop in....let you know how it goes
Kim, I don't see any inherent legal problem in the government's capturing
IRC text. They shouldn't even need an authorization order if they're
simply online in IRC. They would need one if they were intercepting
IRC by tapping phone lines, and, possibly, a search warrant or subpoena if
they wanted to seize a stored IRC session. (I say "possibly" because
"electronic communication" may or may not include IRC sessions.)
--Mike
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: About LE
From: mnemonic (Mike Godwin)
Message-ID: <RVJX2B5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <462B2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 01:31:50 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
kcit (Ken Citarella) writes:
> Impact of EFF? Useful a few years ago as a consciousness raiser
> and a definer of issues.
A few years ago, EFF didn't exist, Ken.
> Their actual positions on searcha nd seizure
> are hopelessly naive and inexperienced.
And prosecutors are hopelessly power-mad and despotic.
But now that I've gotten that out of my system, please detail which
"actual positions" on search and seizure are "hopelessly naive and
inexperienced." The federal court in the Steve Jackson Games case didn't
think we were hopelessly naive to think the Secret Service could have
determined whether SJG was a publisher or could have searched SJG's
systems in something other six months. Perhaps you should be explaining to
Judge Sparks, Ken, how hopelessly naive he is.
In the meantime, let me point out that law enforcement seems to be
hopelessly naive and inexperienced at recognizing the applicability of the
Bill of Rights and of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act to
electronic forums.
Ah, feel much better.
--Mike
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: LOD communications
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Message-ID: <sD5X2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <LJ3X2B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 08:54:39 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
sbranch (Kim Clancy) writes:
> Bootleg, don't know him but got a call about his project and Scanmans.
> He is on our bbs (scanman) and told me he has already cut a cd-rom of
> files. Guess he started the venture with bootleg but not sure what
> happened....that is a story in itself and one I'm not suppose to
> know...so of course, I don't ;)
Somehow the picture of 2 40ish guys stabbing each other in the back over
some 40 column uppercase posts reprting credit cards and codes is too
funny to even take seriously.
I remember that in Mondo Vox was going to be putting all those
files and buffers online, is it still? I see the archives have around 20
megs of files in them and a skeleton for nearly 30 boards and buffers in
there but they appeared and then remained empty. LOD gets to sell them off
Vox? Will it go to the LOD retirement village like the LOD message says at
the menu :)
$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: LOD Communications...
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <wcay2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 11:03:43 EDT
In-Reply-To: <wg5X2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Thug: If you don't want it, don't buy it. You hold a minority opinion,
however.
Others: What lodcomm is trying to do is completely different from what
Scanman & Bootleg is doing. They are putting together text files &
electronic magazines... we are just dealing with bbs posts. Perhaps
there is a limited market for people who want to see what was going
on way back when...so what? This isn't "some big corporate power" going
for a huge horizontal market of all computer users...this is a few friends
trying to make their apple ][s and atari 400's work again to try to dig up
their silly past. :) We ahve no real intention to fleece the masses, nor
to make a big killing
This is more of a project for US...the only real reason to charge even the
pittance that we have determined was to recapture the costs involved in
doing this.
In any case, I totally dig the results...
->ME
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: LOD Communications...
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Message-ID: <FVDy2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <wcay2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 12:19:38 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
erikb (Chris Goggans) writes:
> Thug: If you don't want it, don't buy it. You hold a minority opinion,
> however.
This may be true, I mean, just look at how many people subscribe to 2600
in order to read articles several hundred magnitudes lamer than stuff I've
seen in LODTJ or Syndicate Reports, or the posts from OSUNY. Well, I'll
just wait and see, but from all logical and rational viewpoints it seems
that a market for these items is pretty small in terms of real world
customers. Then again, small is a relative term. It all depends on how
you define large and small.
> Others: What lodcomm is trying to do is completely different from what
> Scanman & Bootleg is doing. They are putting together text files &
> electronic magazines... we are just dealing with bbs posts. Perhaps
> there is a limited market for people who want to see what was going
> on way back when...so what? This isn't "some big corporate power" going
> for a huge horizontal market of all computer users...this is a few friends
> trying to make their apple ][s and atari 400's work again to try to dig up
> their silly past. :) We ahve no real intention to fleece the masses, nor
> to make a big killing
>
> This is more of a project for US...the only real reason to charge even the
> pittance that we have determined was to recapture the costs involved in
> doing this.
>
> In any case, I totally dig the results...
>
Hey, if you're having fun, and making a little money at it, that's cool.
I just can't imagine guys like Bootleg and Scanman thinking they will be
making a killing in the market, and thus justifying stabbing each other in
the back over the immense profits to be made. I have come to realize that
some people have no fucking grasp on reality.
Thug
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: hacker stuff
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Message-ID: <3osy2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 17:39:49 EDT
In-Reply-To: <RVF21B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
>From what I've heard of the LOD project, it sounds exciting. It
will provide a good resource for those who weren't involved in the
mid-80s, and might be a good addition to libraries and other
archives. I'm looking forward to seeing it. It fills in the gaps
of posts over that period. If the USSS has the messages, why
shouldn't the public?
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Additional Comments
From: lodcom (LOD Communications)
Message-ID: <2k9y2B7w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 23:23:00 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Ali Baba: Regarding the Mondo/Vox article etc., the project actually got
started when some of us started dusting off our old disks for PAT/VOX. After
talking it over with PAT late last year (we have been working on this ever
since) it was determined that they were way too busy with the upgrades at Vox
to do anything with our disks and printouts. After we realized how much work
was involved we had to make a decision as to what direction this project was
to take, if any.
The people involved in this project (quite a few actually) are not in high
school with nothing better to do (not that we think anyone reading this
is) and therefore value what little spare time they have. Its one thing to
ask people to give up most of their free time, its another to say that they
won't be compensated for all the effort. So a "pittance" as Erikb says, is
being charged not so much for the information itself (information wants to
be free!#@$&1), but for all the effort and costs (well over $1000 believe
it or not) to bring the information to the masses errrr all 30 people in
the U.S. [as Thug says ;) ].
As for the LOD Retirement Village 8+/, a lot of the money will be recycled
for 2 other projects whose aim is to provide additional historical background
on the Computer Underground Community. And although it may not seem like
much, at least half of the sales of the Metal Shop Private BBS Message Base
will be donated to Knight Lightning's (Craig N.) legal defense fund...after
all, they helped too. More of a non-profit organization than a "ruthless
corporate power"....
The project's aim in addition to 'making our old machines work again' as
ErikB says, is to document some of the history of the 'dark' portion of
Cyberspace. No one is exactly sure how many people really care, but from the
large response we have received due to ads in 2600, Phrack, and CUD, there
appears to be plenty out there who want to see what went on. An interesting
point is how many people on the planet even have messages from some of the
first (if not THE 1st) phreak/hack BBS systems such as 8BBS (Circa 1979/80)?
We have found only one source through all our contacts. And that source has
them on a TRS-80 machine that wasn't powered up in 6 years or so. He has been
dutifully transferring messages at 300 baud (Modems still go that slow?) in
his spare time (very little as he manages a TV station and has a family).
To recapitulate on the main goal--it is to continue to scrounge around for
all these old messages (which are really quite interesting since we have
basically excluded C0DEZ B0ARDZ) and provide a fairly comprehensive look at
the use of BBS's for Underground Activities. Unfortunately, without the
support of the public, it may not be possible to sustain the effort due to
the costs involved but we will see how things play out.
It's funny but a lot of people today forget that back then we did not have
14.4 Kbaud modems and 250 MB hard drives. Most messages we have were
downloaded at 300 baud onto 143K disk drives, with each file usually no
larger than 15K in size (And we LIKED it! Where's my funny looking Hat? ahem)
Its not like anyone called up all the bbs's one after the other, downloaded
the complete message base in 10 minutes, saved it into one file per bbs, and
is now selling them. Not that anyone here is implying that either.
Deckard: "quicktime interviews with the old hackers, etc." One thing we did
do is track down a lot of the system operators of the boards or those who
were on the board and knew inside details. We twisted their arms to write a
"BBS Pro-Phile" [Ala Taran King's Phrack Pro-Phile] specifically for this
project. The BBS Pro-Phile provides various background information on the
different Boards and interesting stories related to them. In addition Philes
online were added to the message bases if we could find them. Ie: all the
Osuny "bulletins" are included in the Osuny message base (circa 1982/3 and
over 370 msgs thus far).
Regarding CD_ROMs: It was decided to just provide the Message Base Files in
compressed format on 3.5/5.25 diskettes. Since we aren't interested in
selling stuff that is readily accessible on the Internet (ie: electronic
newsletters, etc. via ftp.eff.org) the volume of material really doesn't
warrant a CD. Besides, we would be pricing the stuff out of the range of many
people which is something we didn't want to do.
In addition, how many people have CD_ROM Drives? More every day but they
still aren't as prevalent as diskette drives.
Hope we aren't repeating ourselves too much, a lot of these details are
described in the LISTING due out in 1-2 weeks. Guess the Round-Table is Elite
since they get the scoop on this before the public does :)
"finger lodcom" for a bit more additional information on the project if you
like. And if anyone wants to help, let us know.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: speaking
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Message-ID: <BJX42B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <ges42B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 12:12:22 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
siva (The Destroyer) writes:
> One beer?!?! What a cheap fucker. On the other hand, judging from your
> checking account balance, >I< should buy >you< the beer. *DISCLAIMER*
> That was, of course, a totally false, tasteless one-liner throw away joke
> just now, and it bears no relationship to real life.
>
> What is the conference?
>
> And actually, whenever I see PAT, I think of Kroupa. It's like, "we've
> been dealing with PAT...", like they're in awe of the fact that he picked
> up the phone <<little fucking smiley face goes here.>>
>
I'd be in awe too, any time I ever call and ask its "Patrick has left the
building, he will be back at approximately the end of time, try leaving him
mail expect a response no later then 2001"
I haven't been dealing with PAT :( But when I visited the office he
grunted at me at least three times and said "oh, cool" before going back
to looking out the window. Dave didn't even grunt, he was snoring, and
Bruce was in Jamaica. Chris and the other Dave were cool though, but no
one cares.
Not to drift way off topic or anything like that, but whatever happened to
that 911 "LOD" guy in canada and New Jersey. Did it ever get resolved some
way? And do any of the online NOT-THE-LOD (erikb, digital, lex, marauder,
insert name here) have any comments on what that was all about?
The Dead Shall Rise
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: okay..
From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa)
Message-ID: <ZsF52B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 18:46:58 EDT
In-Reply-To: <g1c52B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
[Re: L0D In 9i1]
There were two guys, one in Canada, and Dan in NJ. I have no idea who did
what or why or when or whatever, but in the last few years the only thing
Dan was InTo was recreational soaring, not HaKKinG 911. Neither one of
them was ever in LOD.
LOD doesn't exist anyway, it's just a conceptual, transitional, kinda
ethereal wavy, fuzzy sort of thing; soon it'll be a band, or start a
swim-wear line; eventually it will move to florida, wear silly pants and
talk about the old days a lot.
Patrick
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: okay..
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Message-ID: <7sq52B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 22:44:41 EDT
In-Reply-To: <eeo52B5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Which do you think would sell better, mens swimsuits with the LOD logo, or
the Spur Posse logo? I have a little money to invest, and I'd like to
make a quick buck off of somebody's name. Is LOD trademarked? I'm
surprised Goggins hasn't done it yet. Well, at least "Spur Posse" isn't
trademarked, so I might go with that, unless Chris wants to cut a deal
with me on the LOD name by becoming a partner and spokesman for LOD
Swimwear. Hey, why narrow our horizons, how about LOD/Wear.. Yeah, that's
it, that's it mama... Let's rock...
I really like what Chris is doing with the LOD "Internet World Tour"
t-shirt. I'm thinking it would look insanely chic as a silver on black
Elvis jumpsuit version with flashing blue LEDs, sort of like a cyberpunk
rhinestone cowboy... Can you dig it Chris? I can see it all now... What
do you say?
Chris, if you turn down the deal, maybe MOD/Wear is where the real
money is at.. It's hip, it's urban, it's ethnic.. It'll go over big with
the rap and hip hop crowd, the younger generation. Hmmmmm......
So many ways to make a buck, and so little time...
Thug
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: okay..
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Message-ID: <D4T52B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <eeo52B5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 23:55:36 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:
> One question. Will the swimwear have that thong kind of suit?
And will Sassy do a layout?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: okay..
From: ian (Ian Bainbridge)
Message-ID: <7gy52B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <D4T52B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 01:30:17 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
kieran (Aaron Dickey) writes:
> alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:
>
> > One question. Will the swimwear have that thong kind of suit?
>
> And will Sassy do a layout?
It's the 90's, of course they will!
ian #################
@ #Ian Bainbridge #
mindvox. # ###############################################
phantom. # I am not responsible for my opinons, I don't know or care! #
com ###############################################################
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: okay..
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <Xia62B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 05:50:32 EDT
In-Reply-To: <7gy52B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
First off: the New Jersey wannabes aka maverick, faded into obscurity as
do all pieces of shit such as he.
Secondly: Thug: I will need 65% of the gross take on the lod swimwear
line, but will be giving an established client base, the lod logo, &
assorted other tidbits that we all love so much. Its a great deal. Talk
to my lawyer.
Pat: don't talk any more about LOD. You are giving away all our best
secrets! Noone is supposed to know about the techno band, nor the
retirement village. Shut your damn mouth.
(off to talk to marketers about MOD rap gear & LOD grunge apparrell)
->ME
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: bbbbutt....
From: lex (Lex Luthor)
Message-ID: <JaJ62B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 08:59:54 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Xia62B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Don't I get any royalties for starting the whole damn thing???
Erikb: Have your lawyer contact my lawyer's lawyer.
PAT: RE: The retirement village, I know a golf cart manufacturer who will
get us them for a good price, plus will paint the Hall of Doom picture
on them for Phree!
--Lex
-- Founder: LOD Enterprises
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: bbbbutt....
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Message-ID: <eXR62B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <JaJ62B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 12:06:25 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
lex (Lex Luthor) writes:
> Don't I get any royalties for starting the whole damn thing???
Well yeah, but if you hadn't taken the name from DC Comics, I wouldn't be
hesitant about investing in the LOD name. I don't need lawyers from DC
Comics spoiling a good thing if it gets off the ground. MOD on the
other hand is free of potential trademark problems, and so is the Spur Posse.
> Erikb: Have your lawyer contact my lawyer's lawyer.
Have them both contact the DC Comics lawyer.
You know that the WWF had to license the name "Legion of Doom" from DC
Comics for that wrestling tag team. It's not like anybody can go around
make a buck off the name "Legion of Doom" without paying some extortion to
DC Comics.
Thug
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: bbbbutt....
From: sbranch (Kim Clancy)
Message-ID: <8XT62B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 12:50:06 EDT
In-Reply-To: <JaJ62B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
That's it! I can let a lot of shit pass on here, you guys can talk about
skimpy bathing suits (I enjoy that part actually) and retirement
villages, but when you start psot 4 letter words in here...words like
GOLF!! I have to draw the line!!! There will be NO golfing discussions
allowed on Round-table....first oand only rule....Golf ahhhhhhhhh! They
practice that shitin the halls at wrok...gonna bring my kayak in and
throw it in the water fountain next time they do that...NO GOLF ALLOWED!
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Raids
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <w5DJ5B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 93 17:42:07 EDT
In-Reply-To: <V64i5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
When I was raided, I had the foresight not only to find out
who was digging, but I talked to my apartment manager about the
potentiality of someone coming around asking for information,
and discussed the scenario with a lawyer and prepared him for my early
morning phone call.
Sure enough, i found that a University Policeman (from ut) had been
trying to get my apartment manager to let him into my apartment
WITHOUT A WARRANT! Thankfully she was smart enough to know she did not
have to.
And informing the lawyer of my impending doom, he gave me his home number
in the event they raided at the crack of dawn, which they did.
(Funny joke: University of Texas Police : You cant spell stupid
without UTPD!)
:)
->ME
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Victimless crime--
From: maccop (Larry Coutorie)
Message-ID: <0uPL5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 93 23:50:44 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Fus84B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
RE: I honestly believe the government would shoot you for that if given
halfd
a chance.
->ME
Chris, It was this kind of irresponsible mouthing that got you where
you ended up. I was impressed by a previous post that sbranch
also commented on - I thought you had perhaps grown up. Your comments
are neither complete nor accurate. I was there. Perhaps you shouldn't
post when you are stoned/drunk/having ego problems.
The police must seriously consider information such as that you sent to
Neidorf because they don't want to die for a stupid reason either, such
as ignoring such a threat, it may have been inane to you but you've
probably never been seriously threatened.
You very probably believe a number of things about the government that
a normally functioning person would not consider.
As Rush Limbaugh says: "Words mean things."
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Victimless crime--
From: maccop (Larry Coutorie)
Message-ID: <DiRL5B8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 93 00:26:12 EDT
In-Reply-To: <0uPL5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Interesting...
I read msg 514 after posting a reply to msg 491 (see msg 513)
Once again Chris is neither complete nor accurate.
If he was so well informed why wasn't he awake to 'get his gun'
Goggin's comments about me are blatently false and libelous -
and will be discussed with legal counsel.
As many have said, the best place to elicit the truth is in court.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Victimless crime--
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Message-ID: <NH3L5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <0uPL5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 93 04:23:22 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
maccop (Larry Coutorie) writes:
> Chris, It was this kind of irresponsible mouthing that got you where
> you ended up. I was impressed by a previous post that sbranch
> also commented on - I thought you had perhaps grown up. Your comments
> are neither complete nor accurate. I was there. Perhaps you shouldn't
> post when you are stoned/drunk/having ego problems.
Nothing like a good personal attack of 'I am greater than thou' to start
things out on a mature level... Nice going, copper. Part of the reason
this fourm is here is to talk reasonably with each other and break down
the barriers between the police and the underground. Maybe if we
understood each other Chris wouldnt be where he ended up, or
stoned/drunk/ego problems. Or maybe you could at least look upon him as
more than the pond scum you make him out to be... Before talking about
ego problems in the same sentence as a blatant put-down, you should look
in the mirror at your own ego.
> The police must seriously consider information such as that you sent to
> Neidorf because they don't want to die for a stupid reason either, such
> as ignoring such a threat, it may have been inane to you but you've
> probably never been seriously threatened.
Why the hell didn't they show up at a reasonable hour, and KNOCK like any
other human being? I think that was a hell of a risk on your part.
shit, look what happened when a foreign exchange student did knock, and
what the courts thought of that.
> You very probably believe a number of things about the government that
> a normally functioning person would not consider.
Yah know, maybe one of those beliefs are true? and if only one is right,
then it is a worthwhile thought.
Ill bet that you very probably believe a number of things about those in
the computer underground that a normally functioning net.being (this is
the domain of the net.being) would not consider.
> As Rush Limbaugh says: "Words mean things."
Well yes, how brilliant. But my friend, "Actions speak louder than words"
-Tox
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toxic Avenger | Let not the sands of time get in your lunch.
Toxic@phantom.com |
Cyberhippie, shaman and /|\ the 4 Final words of Ultimate Frisbee:
janitor for the soul / | \ 'CATCH THE DAMN THING!'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Maccop
From: knight (Craig Neidorf)
Message-ID: <cRHm5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 93 09:53:11 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Well Larry -- You weren't in the room with Tim Foley and Barbara Golden
when Foley remarked that he hoped Chris would have a water gun near him
when they raided him (so he would have an excuse to discharge his
weapon).
But I was there...
The SS botched the entire series of cases and simply are ill-trained
to deal wit computer crimes.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: LE Training
From: kcit (Ken Citarella)
Message-ID: <LHNm5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 93 11:56:56 EDT
In-Reply-To: <cRHm5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
In response to the posting in #518, I'd like to ask this question, Craig:
Let's assume you are correct about LE's ability to do compcrime cases.
And, let's assume you were just given the opportunity and the means to do
that training. What would you teach LE about computers? about computer
intrusions? about the psychology and sociology of computer intruders?
about how to distinguish (prior to meeting the target) the curiosity
seeker who is into a system he does not belong on from the hardened
criminal compromising telecomm services to support the narcotics trade?
What motivations would you ascribe to the intruder? Etc., etc., etc.
I mean this seriously. I am very interested in hearing your
perspective on this matter. I do a fair amount of training and would
like to hear what you say.
BTW, I am an Asst DA in Westchester County NY, and an EFF member.
Also an HTCIA member.
Nice to make your acquaintance.
kcit
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: LE Training
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Message-ID: <HNom5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 93 12:22:04 EDT
In-Reply-To: <LHNm5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
A few words about the preceeding posts:
Having gone through the archives and having been on VOX since the
beginning, I've read a great deal of what Chris has written. I agree with
a lot of it and there is some of it I disagree with. I've never met Chris,
but I think I'd like him if I ever met him.
I've read some of Larry's stuff. I agree with a lot of it and some
of it I don't like at all. I know Larry personally. I've worked with him
professionally, and I like him quite a bit...enough to consider him a friend.
The damned thing is, I don't think either of you have a clue just
how much alike you are in so many ways!
Chris, Larry got just as big a snow-job from the feds as you
did...If you would really consider all the evidence, the fact that he was
not named in the SJG lawsuit shows that his role fell into the gray areas.
(no offense Larry) And, I believe he was being led around by the nose just
as so many others that were involved. I don't think anyone had a clue (at
that time) just what a bunch of lamers the involved feds and the telco
folks were. If either of you wants a real villian to hang the noose on,
have you ever considered the telco's...I'll bet Craig and Len have!
Larry, you might consider a few factors as well, such as Chris'age
at the time. (no offense Chris) And, the fact that his perception of the
events that took place are very different from yours. I think you both
believe everything you percieve as having taken place...but somehow,
things don't quite square up. Chris has written extensively about the
events that took place and who played what role. Larry, you've just
scratched the surface from your point of view...Why not expound a little
more?
I wish the two of you would just have lunch somewhere and sort
this out...I know it sounds crazy, but you just might learn something from
each other. Chris, just don't go to Mother's! Larry can't order meat and
it makes him nuts!
Now, re: LE training...Thanks to Larry, 3jane and I were able to
attend an LE training seminar in Dallas a few months ago. In many ways it
was an enlightening experience. It's literally taken all this time for me
to sort out my feelings about the experience. There were (Larry, correct
me if I'm wrong) about 300 assorted LE types in attendance. As far as I
know, 3jane and I were the only actual byte-heads that were there. The
spirit of the seminar was good...Parts of the execution were good, but the
vast majority of it scared the shit out of me!...And, I don't scare
easily. Larry, despite what Chris or anyone else may think, has made (and
I've personally observed this in him) a genuine effort to learn and grow
where high technology issues are concerned...So had a few of the other
that came to this conference...Most did not have a clue!
Larry was one of the presenters and delivered an informed, well
thought out paper on the future of high-tech crime. It achieved the level
of excellence that it did because it was not written in a myopic
environment. He actually talked to hackers and solicited their input and
it showed in the quality of his product...He was the only presenter that
bothered to walk even one inch in the "other guy's shoes." After having
had the time to sort things out, I reached the conclusion that LE
priorities are basically: pedophiles, drug dealers, pbx fraud, and
high-tech theft of funds...hackers barely register on the scale. The
problem is that MOST LE folks don't have a clue as to how to separate
hackers from the other four groups of serious criminals...The wrong
people, or perhaps better stated, not all of the right people were at this
seminar.
This forum is a good start, but what's needed is real contact in a
serious environment that will promote genuine understanding and learning.
Not a huge conference where every crazy on the net is given a forum, but a
seminar, or series of them with serious representation from both camps and
an open attitude toward what the other side has to say. My final analysis
of the seminar in Dallas was that the LE folks in attendance probably
learned little of value in terms of developing any real understanding.
Probably just as little as attendees at a Ho-Ho Con learn about the real
problems the LE guys have to deal with...Both forums are egocentric
sessions designed to promote a great deal of self congratulatory
back-slapping. And, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT...AS LONG AS THAT'S NOT
ALL THERE IS!
Yeeech! This whole message is so uncharacteristic of my usual
net-persona. It just came to me that maybe round-table might be a good
place to put personas aside for awhile...
-Falconer (Steve Copold)
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Oh Yeah
From: wheez (Hal Weiner)
Message-ID: <qR0P5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 93 10:51:01 EDT
In-Reply-To: <kN0o5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Clueless here just deleted himself from the Vox forum prior to this one,
by hitting "alt x " instead of "control x" for the PICO editor. Naturlich,
mein efficient procomm plus package took that as an instant beaming down
to DOS. (so why can't the fucker download???) in any event, I wish to
comment from the vantage point of not knowing what terrible Texas or
federal crime we are talking about here.....and to second Falconer. I have
read sbranch's posts with great interest in this forum and others. I am
not familiar with maccop ( I tought cops used PC's,. not macs but it
depends on what they can confiscate.) as you know, I am a lawyer. I have
the same view of most lawyers, and cops, and prosecutors, as Tox has of
lawyers. I try hard not to be one of the charicatures of the Bar that guys
like Daumier, Reginald Marsh, Red Grooms, and Flagg like to pillory in
their visual art.( though before Weight Watchers I did look like Rumpole).
I think we need to (a) calm down about " I'llk see my lawyer " or " my
solicitor will be around in the morning, slap slap" ( with Michael
Jackson's other glove). Let's all have pizza some time at a 2boots. Let's
calm down enough to stop threatening each other. We did not need to get on
the Vox to have head to head showdowns at the VR corral.
I intensely dislike cops who violate Miranda and prosecutorial mentalities
in general. It is a learned dislike, from years of their using a different
standard of what is right in getting the "bad guys". Criminals should be
prosecuted.....all of them. But many are not, because of governmental
status and the ability to influence the legal and judicial system. I take
particular anger in the fact that the former president of the US , Richard
Milhouse Nixon, seems to have gotten away with murder, or at least
political assasination, and was pardoned by his party crony, Gerald Ford.
As I look on my office wall today and see the plaque with Ford's signature
on it thanking me for my participation in the Selective Service System as
an Advisor to Registrants of their legal rights, I am reminded,
smirkingly, that the Draft Board would not let me sit in on their
deliberations, because I was a Commie traitor who might snitch when they
fucked over some poor bastard's rights, usually a minority, who because he
did not have a student deferment for the rich, was on his way to the
southeast asian meat market to become US SATAY. They finally came around
when I threatened to refer each and every one of these young men to the
best draft lawyers I could find, and have them personally held responsible
for selective enforcement of selective service. The mere fact that I was a
Naval officer, not a CO; that I had served in between Korea and Nam; that
I was nominated by that well known band of traitors, the American Bar
Association ( which I since quit in disgust and which quitting may have
been an error, since those of us who did gave up on inside reform), failed
to impress them one iota. It was only when their own skins were about to
get basted and barbecued that they came around. So much for social
responsibility of the government and its agents.
They were by no means untypical. Cf. Lyndon Johnson's "I am the only
President you got" after being the subject of calumny when we found out
that the Gulf of Tonkin resolution was a fraud he designed, probably with
William Casey, based on a totally fabricated incident in Tonkin Gulf, to
enable him to grab more war powers ( cf. " WarEz " ) and send more boys to
die. He should not have been impeached.....he should have been executed.
The lies of the Reagan and Bush administrations regarding the scum we
support in Latin and South America is well documented in Soujourners
magazine, out of Washington DC. Its latest issue pits the likes of Elliot
Abrams, et. al., against the United Nations Truth Commission in El Salvador.
It is nothing unusual. Business as usual for the government, which has
become so unresponsive to the people as to render "democracy" a farce. Who
cares who is elected if there are no real checks on their actions, and the
media plays into their hands or it won't get cooperation, or channels, or
FCC licenses( Cf. " WareZ, dudes.").
Rather than trash the EFF, we should be trying to strengthen it and keep
it independent of its funders, who may find that they have to give it the
money they do, because some day they will need it bad. I recall the Nixon
White House people going to the National Lawyers Guild, the only really
radical group in organized law in the country, and trying to get them to
teach the same jury selection techniques used by the antiwar forces like
the Berrigan Brothers trial to select juries for the H20GATE creeps. And,
please remember, that the H20Gate creeps did not do one thing that the
Kennedys didn't also do. They just had the Republican stupidity to get caught.
What is my point here? Simple. Before the LOD graduates decide that all
cops are pigs, and they should be "offed", think of the post above about
the officer with 20 years of service to the community gunned down by that
15 year old.
Before the cops decide that all hackers, or persons who disagree with the
government in any way, are traitors, criminals and worse, remember who it
is you are supposedly serving.
And, in all candor, the way cops and arrestees perceive any arrest, coming
from a different prospective, is so subjective that the views of
diametrically opposing parties may have validity without being libel, or
slander, or malicious, in the dictionary as opposed to the legal sense.
See Rashoman, that great Japanese film of a rape in medieval Japan seen
through the eyes of the victim, the rapist, and others; and tell me, which
version is the " truth"?
Go forth and enjoy communications. Shantih, the Peace that Passeth All
Understanding.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Larry:
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <Bg6q5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 93 22:15:22 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Du2q5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Sir:
I have not, nor will I ever directly make any commentary about any
actions that you personally did or did not do. For you to interpret
anything that I have stated about those involved in the raids upon my
house and the events leading up to them as a personal attack of some sort
shows some amount of insecurity, in my opinon. I in no way intended to
slander the character of any Larry Cotourie, nor did I ever
mention any name.
Perhaps, since you have taken my comments so personally, you would care
to expand upon exactly what it was that I said that was slanderous. And
after that has been presented the forum can make commentary.
And to answer your question as to why I didn't "get my gun"
I didn't own one.
Immature as ever,
->ME
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Larry:
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Message-ID: <0yBR5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 93 00:36:20 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Bg6q5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
maccop (Larry Coutorie) writes:
>Interesting...
>I read msg 514 after posting a reply to msg 491 (see msg 513)
>Once again Chris is neither complete nor accurate.
>If he was so well informed why wasn't he awake to 'get his gun'
>Goggin's comments about me are blatently false and libelous -
>and will be discussed with legal counsel.
>As many have said, the best place to elicit the truth is in court.
Larry, most of us are here because we believe that, despite our
individual differences and ideological opposition, we can
appreciate and respect, or at least try to understand, those
differences. Most of us also respect Kim's goal, which is to
generate dialogue. You do us all a disservice when you engage in
direct personal attack.
Further, I judge that you abuse your power and position when you
evoke the threat--and I presume it was only a threat--of a
lawsuit against a poster here, simply because you did not like
what he said. Who, precisely, did Chris Goggans libel? Your name
was not mentioned. Even if one could construe that you were the
subject, I read no personal invective that could even remotely be
considered libelous. What was it that you saw that impelled you
to invoke legal sanctions? I find your posts to be precisely the
kind that tarnishes law enforcement: You engage in ad hominem,
innuendo, bullying threats, general hyperbole that hardly
generates a discussion. The message you send to me is this:
"Don't fuck with me, and if I don't like what you say, I'll sue
you." So much for rationale dialogue.
Larry, Chris's pro-violence hyperbole is inappropriate, dangerous
to himself, and unwise. Couldn't you calmly explain this in a way
so that we could all learn from it? Your status and experience in
law enforcement gives you both the knowledge and the credibility
to provide a reasoned counter-balance. I've re-read Chris's and
your posts carefully several times. If you believe that you have
grounds for libel action against Chris, who never alluded to you
directly, then surely Chris has even stronger grounds for legal
action against you. You tell him he shouldn't post when he's
"stoned/drunk/having ego problems." Was this necessary? Such
personal assaults lower the level of discourse, and I believe
that you owe him and the rest of us an apology for such a
personal assault. Bear in mind that Chris feels justifiably
victimized by the legal system. His hyperbole may be excessive,
but if you are to be consistent, then you should also attack the
hyperbole of law enforcement. Remember: Chris is simply using
words to vent his rage at what he (and many of us) perceive as an
injustice. Law enforcement used hyperbole to disrupt lives and
discredit the value of law.
As Steve nicely wrote above, most of us at least try to be
reasonable. Sometimes were err and our passions guide our prose.
Usually we can recover and get back on track. It would be helpful
if you could share your experiences and insights along with your
anger. If so, you'll probably find this a hospitable and
stimulating forum for dialogue.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: LE Training
From: loki (Loki)
Message-ID: <5VcR5B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <LHNm5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 93 00:56:03 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
kcit (Ken Citarella) writes:
> about how to distinguish (prior to meeting the target) the curiosity
> seeker who is into a system he does not belong on from the hardened
> criminal compromising telecomm services to support the narcotics trade?
> What motivations would you ascribe to the intruder? Etc., etc., etc.
> I mean this seriously. I am very interested in hearing your
> perspective on this matter. I do a fair amount of training and would
> like to hear what you say.
> BTW, I am an Asst DA in Westchester County NY, and an EFF member.
> Also an HTCIA member.
> Nice to make your acquaintance.
> kcit
Heh I love statements like that. I know people who know more
about the phone system than anyone short of the guys who wrote the
software the switches run on and people who surviie by scamming like crazy
to get money for food and a roof over there heads but I do not know a
single case of a drug cartel paying to have the phoine system fuckedd with
by a hardened criminal, hel they could just pay off Telco employees.
Ummm Ken your the guy in charge of the "pumpcon" shit right? Still have
the pumpcon poster hanging on your wall?
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: LE Training
From: sbranch (Kim Clancy)
Message-ID: <ZV5R5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 93 11:00:46 EDT
In-Reply-To: <5VcR5B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Just a personal note here about Ken....I find him to be one of the
fairest LE types I have run across. Even the hacker he was prosecuting
called and told me he was a decent guy. I think that says a lot. I am
back from my vacation to California and see things have been quite
active. I apprecaite the help of others to do what shold have been my
job. I only have on rule on tis forum and that is no one is allowed to
discuss golf....I'm debating whether we need another about the threat of
court actions against folks but don't think even my rules can surpass
laws...but one never knows. :) As Jim said, I think we need to discuss
spific issues and not generalized. I believe that Chris is prtraying
what he experiences as maccop is doing the same...perceptoins inthis
cause will be very different even if it is the same incident. Chris and
Maccop, I greatly enjoy your participation on here, I only hope you both
stick around long enough to let us watch the development of your
interaction. I think it maccops turn and I anxioulsy await your reply..
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Posters on my wall
From: kcit (Ken Citarella)
Message-ID: <s5yT5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 93 10:51:39 EDT
In-Reply-To: <TXcs5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Loki, Sure I have the poster. Why not? It is a bright day-glo purple
and livens the place up. When a case, any case, supplies an interesting
souvenier, I like to have it hang around for a while. Keeps the job fun.
As to what you know about telecom fraud and hardened rackets, I am sure
you are honestly reporting what you are aware of. No peoblem. Please
extend to me the same courtesy, and assume I, too, am reporting what I
know to be true. kcit
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: erikb
From: maccop (Larry Coutorie)
Message-ID: <i2ZT5B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 93 11:11:17 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
In regard to several previous posts, I offer the following comments:
falconer (Steve Copold) writes:
Larry, you might consider a few factors as well, such as Chrisage
at the time. (no offense Chris) And, the fact that his perception of
the
events that took place are very different from yours.
Steve, It was not his age at the time, but his age now that prompted my
comments. These comments did not address perceptions gained the day
of the execution of the search warrant but alleged facts discovered prior
to that day. Considering this, and his experiences, I concluded one
would have to not be thinking clearly to make such comments. I did
note that a previous post by Chris impressed me but that seems to have
escaped everyone. Thanks for the comments, you are indeed a friend.
wheez (Hal Weiner) writes:
I think we need to (a) calm down about " Illk see my lawyer " or "
my
solicitor will be around in the morning, slap slap" ( with Michael
Jacksons other glove). Lets all have pizza some time at a 2boots.
Lets
calm down enough to stop threatening each other. We did not need to
get on the Vox to have head to head showdowns at the VR corral.
...I intensely dislike cops who violate Miranda and prosecutorial
mentalities in general.
Hal, this is exactly the point. I too hate dishonest cops. Please
understand, all a cop has is his professional reputation -- mine is
excellent. The accusation that I attempted to circumvent the 4th
amendments rights of anyone is professionally damaging to me and I
intensely resent it. There is no truth to Chris statement that I
attempted
to gain illegal entry to his apartment.
Chris writes:
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 93 22:15:22 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Du2q5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Sir:
I have not, nor will I ever directly make any commentary about any
actions that you personally did or did not do. For you to interpret
anything that I have stated about those involved in the raids upon
my house and the events leading up to them as a personal attack of
some sort shows some amount of insecurity, in my opinon. I in no
way intended to slander the character of any Larry Cotourie, nor did
I ever mention any name. Perhaps, since you have taken my
comments so personally, you would care to expand upon exactly what
it was that I said that was slanderous. And after that has been
presented the forum can make commentary.
And to answer your question as to why I didnt "get my gun"
I didnt own one.
Immature as ever,
-- more (96%) --
->ME
Chris, apology accepted. Im not sure if you know me or not. We have
met a couple of times and I have always treated you with respect and in
a friendly manner. I have no animosity toward you and I dont take your
computer activities personally. I appreciate your response. My
reputation is obviously very important to me and I will do whatever
necessary to protect it. All legal avenues I have begun to do so have
been stopped.
cudigest (Jim Thomas) writes:
You do us all a disservice when you engage in
direct personal attack.
Further, I judge that you abuse your power and position when you
evoke the threat--and I presume it was only a threat--of a
lawsuit against a poster here, simply because you did not like
what he said. Who, precisely, did Chris Goggans libel? Your name
was not mentioned. Even if one could construe that you were the
subject, I read no personal invective that could even remotely be
considered libelous. What was it that you saw that impelled you
to invoke legal sanctions?
Jim, I agree that I could have omitted the comment about being drunk,
etc. I just could not believe that after what Chris had been through he
would put himself in that position again. Please be aware that this was
not a threat, I had already contacted a lawyer and was prepared to sue.
Re: The previous answer to Chris, my professional reputation is
extremely important to me, particularly considering recent press
reports of some police not being completely honest. Often all it takes
is
the accusation to destroy a reputation. My name was not mentioned,
however I was the ONLY UT Policeman involved in the search warrant
and could be easily identified via court transcripts. My comments about
Chris state of mind were opinions (that you defend) and were not
depicted as fact.
A quote that has always been with me goes something like:
A reputation, once damaged, can be repaired. However, people will
always take note of the crack.
I am willing to engage in discourse regarding almost anything.
However, professionally, I wont comment on any case in which I was
directly involved, sorry.
Sorry for the long post, I hope this is behind us now.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: erikb
From: sheldon (Jeremy Day)
Message-ID: <LN4T5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 93 12:29:20 EDT
In-Reply-To: <i2ZT5B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
maccop wrote in the previous message:
> Please be aware that this was not a threat, I had already contacted
> a lawyer and was prepared to sue.
...
> I am willing to engage in discourse regarding almost anything.
> However, professionally, I wont comment on any case in which I was
> directly involved, sorry.
Fine, so you refuse to participate in any kind of personal discussion,
limiting yourself to cases in which you were not personally involved. I
don't like that, but I certainly don't object to it. What I do find
morally abhorrent is the fact that you seriously considered such legal
action as filing suit against someone for engaging in such discussion,
that kind of action only serves to further lessen my opinion of you, and
to stifle the freedom with which people are permitted to speak in this
forum (witness Chris' last post, I wonder if a laywer approved it). I am
not alone in feeling that turning to the threat of legal action was, in
this case, a completely inappropriate response. Even if you decline to
comment on the case that was brought up, preventing others from doing so
seems unnecessary.
Now. On another closely related topic; I realize that this is old news,
[well, by a day or two at least] but vox hasn't been stable enough to
post it until now. The cypherpunks archive site at berkeley appears to
be down. Apparently, CERT is responsible, as the maintainer of the site
indicated on the mailing list that CERT had informed the university
authorities that a 'pirated' piece of software was available there. The
software in question was PGP. It seems reasonable to expect that in this
case there were no direct threats of legal action, but such threats have
been made against other sites in the past. It doesn't seem right that a
piece of software can be made illegal, but that's life.
I also noticed yesterday what may be yet another minor blow to computing
and information freedom in the U.S., depending, of course on what forces
are behind it. The S.Branch bbs (hello moderator:) now displays a
message at login stating that all 'underground' files have been removed
from the system. I will wait for an explaination as to what the reason
for this sudden reversal of policy might be before commenting further.
.sheldon
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: reputation
From: tgitm (TGiTM Inc.)
Message-ID: <RsHu5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 93 17:34:50 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
This is in response to maccop's hysteria about his reputation. How come
this deal only works one way? What about all the "hackers" out there who
are falsely charged and harassed? Most employers these days ask if
you've ever been indicted or charged on their applications for jobs.
Maybe you'd like a specific example. How about the police calling up the
employer of a suspected hacker and saying that thisemployee is under
investigation and is probbaly doing evil things liek stealing from his
workplace. Lets just say that the said employee/hacker was then fired
because law enforcement carries a lot of clout with employers even though
no evidence was ever provided. Do you think that is fair? Do you think
that hacker wil lever be able to repair his reputation or work history
which was destroyed on the basis of an assumption that hackers are evil
and flaunt the law?
Anyways, my main problem is that while a law enforcement officer has a
chance of winning a suit liek this, for us ordinary folk we have to put
up with whatever slander comes our way.
Information is Power - TGiTM Inc.
tgitm@netcom.com tgitm@mindvox.phantom.com
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: reputation
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Message-ID: <suRu5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <RsHu5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 93 21:12:03 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
tgitm (TGiTM Inc.) writes:
> This is in response to maccop's hysteria about his reputation. How come
> this deal only works one way? What about all the "hackers" out there who
> are falsely charged and harassed? Most employers these days ask if
> you've ever been indicted or charged on their applications for jobs.
> Maybe you'd like a specific example. How about the police calling up the
> employer of a suspected hacker and saying that thisemployee is under
> investigation and is probbaly doing evil things liek stealing from his
> workplace. Lets just say that the said employee/hacker was then fired
> because law enforcement carries a lot of clout with employers even though
> no evidence was ever provided. Do you think that is fair? Do you think
> that hacker wil lever be able to repair his reputation or work history
> which was destroyed on the basis of an assumption that hackers are evil
> and flaunt the law?
I find myself agreeing with both of you here. Professional reputation is
obviously very important to someone who takes their profession seriously.
I have a feeling most cops take their profession seriously, just like a
lot of hackers take hacking seriously, so I think that maccop's reaction,
while maybe a little extreme, is understandable.
But I have also been on the other side of this fence (the hacking side).
Two years ago I lost a job because the head of the CS department of a
university I once went to took it upon himself to inform my employers that
he thought I was a "menace to the network." This was because of an
incident involving he and I that couldn't even have been considered
hacking, at least not in the standard sense. I still can't walk into
computer labs at this university because the security forces of the campus
have been alerted by this individual that I am a "dangerous person"; yet
homeless people are regularly allowed to panhandle throughout the labs. I
have nothing against homeless people panhandling (except when they get
abusive), but it seems extreme to threaten to arrest someone for sitting
down at terminal. Not to mention the financial hardships I was put through
by having to suddenly find a new job.
So obviously this is an issue that can cut both ways. I think, however,
that people in positions of authority (usually not hackers) are those who
are listened to more often than the "undertrod." So while maccop is
probably not in much danger of losing his job because of some random
hacker saying he mishandled an investigation, that same random hacker is
probably going to have a hard time getting a responsible job in the
computing industry.
Sulam
There's a peculiar sort of calm that you get after having read a 300 page
book in 2 hours. I think it's akin to being drunk, only more.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Computer Crime Investigation
From: knight (Craig Neidorf)
Message-ID: <982u5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 93 00:56:08 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
In response to post 519, Subject: "LE Training" by kcit (Ken Citarella):
> In response to the posting in #518, I'd like to ask this question,
> Craig: et's assume you are correct about LE's ability to do compcrime
> cases. And, let's assume you were just given the opportunity and the
> means to do that training. What would you teach LE about computers?
> about computer intrusions? about the psychology and sociology of
> computer intruders? about how to distinguish (prior to meeting the
> target) the curiosity seeker who is into a system he does not belong
> on from the hardened criminal compromising telecomm services to
> support the narcotics trade? What motivations would you ascribe to
> the intruder? Etc., etc., etc.
> I mean this seriously. I am very interested in hearing your
> perspective on this matter. I do a fair amount of training and would
> like to hear what you say.
I would teach them about what they need and what they do not need to be
concerned with when conducting a search and seizure on a suspected
computer criminal. I would teach them to look past the hysteria and
hyperbole used and abused by media-glory seeking prosecutors (no offense
intended, but look at Bill Cook). I would teach them to make
distinctions between the computer hacker who is just looking around, and
the corporate criminal who commits industrial espionage, sabotage, and
steals money or other assets from a company by manipulating their
computers. There is a big difference. And most of all I would make
myself available to answer questions that I cannot conceive they would
ask.
I truly think a lot of the over zealousness of the law enforcement
community comes from the fact that they think they have to really make
this sound like a big deal because when compared with murder cases and
the like, little computer prank investigation doesn't earn them much
respect. So they come up with this "HACKERS THREATEN TO BLOW UP NUCLEAR
REACTOR!" and so forth.
In speaking about my case, Professor Jim Thomas remarked to me that I
should not attribute to malice that which can be accounted for by
stupidity. In Bill Cook and Tim Foley, I see both. There is no way an
educated person could have looked at the Phrack text file and determined
it was a program or in the least bit dangerous. They lied to a federal
grand jury. I have read the transcruipts.
They made the mistake of using the alleged victim as the expert witness
and that is a MAJOR wrong. Did you know how Illinois Bell hid potential
witnesses from us, people who had written articles about 911 systems for
public magazines like Telephone Engineering Management?
They lied to me and they lied to the American public.
Why? Politics. Cook had been recently named the head of the new
national computer crime task force after his successful prosecution of
Herbert Zinn, Jr./Shadow Hawk. Zinn (and not Robert Morris) was the
first person to ever be convicted under the 1986 Computer Fraud & Abuse
Act (Morris was the first to be convicted under the act by a jury, Zinn
had a bench trial).
Now Cook needed a major public hacker figure to nail to send his
message. So instead of waiting for a major crime to occur so he could
prosecute it... he invented one where no crime even existed.
And the Secret Service doesn't give credit where credit is due. I
didn't learn until July 1990 (a week or two before my trial) that they
had videotaped me and others at SummerCon 1988. And guess what... the
very day I was at SummerCon was a date in my indictment saying I was
committing crimes... and guess what... I'm on 15 hours of video on that
date at an "evil hacker conference" and other than some under age
drinking, there are no crimes being committed (except the invasion of
privacy by the feds).
Cook lied to the Court about this as well. In early motions, we had
asked for, and the Court had ordered, all electronic surveillance of me
be turned over for our inspection. The only reason we got it in July (5
months later), was because the government was hoping to make us agree to
a delay in a trial date by attempting to focus our attention elsewhere.
Their answer as to why they did not make us aware of the existence of
these tapes when the court order went through? -- They didn't intend to
use it as evidence. Oh gee, why not?
This is what pisses me off. I could have gotten 5 years in prison
alone, merely for the conference announcement that even invited law
enforcement to attend. The SS video tapes me and their aren't any
crimes and there was no meetings of conspiracy... and despite all this,
I am still tagged as the bad guy by them.
So Ken I would say that people just need to learn to see things as they
are and not through the looking glass of a reporter or anyone else with
an ego trip and an overactive imagination.
I have spoken at many many many conferences, most recently at the
Computer Ethics Institue in Washington, D.C. at their 2nd Annual
Conference, and also at Surveillance Expo 1992, and last October in
Chicago as the luncheon speaker for the MIS Training Institute's 12th
Annual Conference on Control, Audit and Security of Information Systems.
> BTW, I am an Asst DA in Westchester County NY, and an EFF
member. > Also an HTCIA member.
After my Now It Can Be Told confrontation with Don Ingraham where he
completely distorted the truth about me and my case, I am not terribly
fond of the HTCIA, but if Sbranch thinks you're ok then that is good
enough for me.
> Nice to make your acquaintance.
Likewise,
Craig Neidorf (knight)
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Umm Craig forgot a few things
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Message-ID: <7D7u5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 93 02:26:05 EDT
In-Reply-To: <766u5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Larry--
Thanks for your candid response to my (and other) posts. Most of
us can appreciate your concern for our reputations. My own
concern extended beyond the comments to Chris and to the
issue of freedom to speak openly, even foolishly. The threat of
a law suit for what many of us find vague allusions, even if
angry ones, can have a chilling effect of stifling the rest of
us. In my own view, it is not that you have no right to become
angry or to react with passion against what you perceive as an
injustice. It is rather that you seemed rather quick to silence
it by invoking legal sanctions rather than confronting it
with a reasoned response, as you just did above. In this forum,
as you've seen from the posts, you'll comments ranging from
reasonable responses to mean-spirited nastyness. Some of us can
agree with you on principle, but vehemently oppose the
litigiousness that your initial post reflected. It is not that
we support personal attacks on others, but that we don't
feel that invoking law is the answer. As you say, it's behind us,
but the spectre of a law suit against me for saying something
you may *feel* reflects badly on you leaves me a bit queasy.
This raises a few questions:
1) How free should one of us feel to use hyperbole in making our
points or in expressing our views for those with whom we disagree?
Much of the anti-LE rhetoric is posturing. However, much of it is
in response to LE's rhetoric in defining the "hacker" menace.
For example, just as Larry feels his reputation was tarnished by
Chris, even though Larry wasn't mentioned by name, would I have
a case against personnel who publicly labeled me as a "hacker?"
Afterall, I'm mentioned by Tim Foley in an indictment, based on
info given by Henry Kluepfeld, as a "hacker." Not by name, but by
the same process of elimination that Larry used to defend his claim.
Those who know me know I'm barely techno-literate. Further, as a
well-published scholar and full professor, my reputation (not to
mention career) is at great risk if I'm associated so directly
with illegal activity. Should I sue? Should I be angry? Or, should I
just laugh off the LE claim and use it as an example of ineptitude by
over-zealous agents? The answer is fairly simple: Just as in Larry's
case, I have no legal claim (and I'm sure that's what his legal
counsel told him). The allusion was indirect and there is no demonstrable
harm to reputation that can be shown. My point is that, while not
justifying inappropriate speech, t'is far better to meet it with more
speech.
2) Because of our positions and visibility, are Larry, Ken, myself,
Pat Kroupa, Chris, Craig, and others "public figures?" If so, we're
fair game to a great extent than others. Hence, we should expect a bit
of flack. We needn't tolerate it, but our responses should bear in mind
that our visibility acts as a lightening rod for those who disagree with
us.
3) How can we engage in dialogue if those with whom we disagree are
subjected primarily to criticisms rather than to questions and
reasoned responses? It's not simply that the targets of flames (on
all sides) will withdraw from an unpleasant and non-rewarding situation,
but that those on the sidelines will also grow tired of posturing and
no longer participate with comments or lurking.
So, especially to Larry, I'd ask: What do you see as the greatest
area of misunderstanding between law enforcement and the general
population regarding the *handling* of computer crime? You have a sense
of some of the concerns here. To what degree are the concerns grounded
in reality and where are they in need of a "reality tuneup?"
Sorry--this started out as a 15 line post.....
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: cudigest questions & a general comment
From: maccop (Larry Coutorie)
Message-ID: <2ssV5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 93 10:30:12 EDT
In-Reply-To: <8oRV5B6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
First the general comment - fell free to say whatever you like, in
general, about law enforcement. However specific allegations of
wrongdoing without a basis in fact is something else. My intent to sue
was based upon what I felt was necessary to protect myself, not law
enforcement in general.
cudigeyou might have a case against Kluepfeld for his comments in the
affidavit, especially if the accusation is baseless. If the comment
directed at me had been attributed to 'one of the cops' for example it
would have been ignored. Being a 'public figure' does not make one 'fair
game' in these sort of personal attacks - recall the suit of one of the
tabloids by Carole Burnet who was accused of being drunk in a restaurant
- she won.
The greatest area of misunderstanding... I don't think the general
population really gives a flip about the handling of computer crime cases
yet - in fact a lot of LE administrators don't care much about it. LE
should handle those cases as they should any other, from a shoplifting to
a murder, responsibly. Anyone who goes off half-cocked to investigate a
case is the only one really responsible for any repercussions it brings.
The SJG case, despite attempts otherwise, should be viewed as a case of a
citizen who was wronged making it right in court. Nothing was covered up
because the USSS was involved and Jackson was 'made whole' as a result.
In fact it probably, overall, helped his business in the long run. It
was unfortunate that it happened in the first place though. This
shouldn't happen when a case is professionally managed.
There are some new aspects involved in the investigation of computer
crime and many of these first came to light in a short study I did with
the cooperation of some of the hackers on this board. Things such as
background, training and jurisdiction are prime examples of traditional
ideas that need re-thinking and I advocate such at every opportunity.
I getting off the subject. Be assured I am not the type to yell SUE! at
drop of a hat, hell I don't even like lawyers very much.
By the way, mindo, I'll do my best to answer your questions.
maccop
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Umm Craig forgot a few things
From: redmond (David Redmond)
Message-ID: <oH1V5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <7D7u5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 93 13:16:11 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Knowing none of the parties involved personally and judging by how things
were presented here I must admit that the speed and vehemence with which
maccop jumped on the concept of suing Mr. Goggans was surprising in the
extreme. Taking what Jim thomas wrote and giving a impression of it
below, I'm still left with the feeling that if Chris is immature and
shoots his mouth off, he is by no means the only one on either side of the
issues. How's that for tact wording? :)
cudigest (Jim Thomas) writes:
> 2) Because of our positions and visibility, are Larry, Ken, myself,
> Pat Kroupa, Chris, Craig, and others "public figures?" If so, we're
> fair game to a great extent than others. Hence, we should expect a bit
> of flack. We needn't tolerate it, but our responses should bear in mind
> that our visibility acts as a lightening rod for those who disagree with
> us.
Here I would have to disagree strongly with maccop and answer the question
with a loud _yes_ you are fair game. Society works in this way, if you
stand up and become visible then those who are sitting down will have
something to say about you one way or the other. What you say when you're
standing is a whole other ballpark, to use your list of names as an
example I can't find anything Ken has said to be inflammatory or
thoughtless and likely to inflame anyone except pumpcon attendees while
Larry has through his own actions received a different response. Craig
has always struck me as a person who was singled out and wronged and if he
is a public figure I don't believe he has been or is expected to be
subjected to the same set of standards that apply to Patrick and Chris.
Craig speaks about particular issues and his views on them, where what he
is speaking about is the subject of discussion. Most stories featuring
Mr. Kroupa or Goggans stray to the facts for a paragraph or two but the
focus quickly changes and it becomes a story about physical appearance,
substance abuse, clever things that were said and then moves to the topic
of this poetry of cyberspace angle in Pat's case, or women he has lusted
after for Chris. If either one of them cared about this, its to be assumed
they would modify what they say and how they act.
Public figures make themselves public and whether the second set
of standards that is applied to them is fair or not, its their call.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: A note from Mitch Kapur
From: alex (Alex Zelchenko)
Message-ID: <DVDw5B5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 93 18:05:12 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Mitchell Kapor (mkapor) 9 Jun 93 (13:28)
I decided to make one more attempt to bring a more balanced view on
this subject to the mainstream press. Herewith is my June 21, 1993
Forbes column. Permission is granted to redistribute this electronically.
A little perspective, please
In Its Dec.21, 1992 cover story, headlined "The playground bullies are
learning how to type," FORBES perpetuated a dangerous myth. This magazine
blamed a new generation of "hacker hoods" for an epidemic of computer crime.
It grates on me to see these two words- hacker and hood - used together.
I'll begin by agreeing that computer crime is a real and serious
problem. But the FORBES cover seemed to blur the distinction between theft
and free speech, between adventuresome teenagers and crooks. Most hackers
are just playing around or swapping information; only a minority are out to
steal it. Hackers are not hoods, though a few may be.
If I sound sensitive on this point, I have good reason. In the
summer of 1990 John Perry Barlow and I founded the Electronic Frontier
Foundation to challenge Secret Service seizures of computer bulletin board
systems. Our goal was simple enough. We wanted to establish that the Bill
of Rights applies in cyberspace as well as on Main Street. We wanted to
help assure that law enforcement people, while fighting crime, do not
violate the free speech and privacy rights of computer bulletin board users.
We made one principle clear from the start: "Unauthorized entry into
computer systems is wrong and should be illegal."
Big high-tech rip-offs these days have to do with the theft of
cellular and PBX codes. These can run up victims' phone bills into the
hundreds of thousands of dollars. According to Donald Delaney, a New York
State Police investigator who specializes in this area, major telecom fraud
is typically committed by career criminals in their 30s, many of whom see it
as more lucrative and safer than the drug business. Hardly your typical
hacker.
If the typical 17- year old hacker, gets caught stealing small
amounts of phone service or breaking into a computer system where he has no
business being, he's scared as hell, and ready to confess.. He's highly
unlikely to do it again. These first-time offenders don't usually end up
ever again on the business end of one of Dectective Delaney's warrants.
There is no reason for bringing the full force of the law down on kids like
this.
So I was peeved at a FORBES cover that seemed to lump these kid
pranksters in with hardened crooks. Such broad bracketing leads to excesses
like those of the Secret Service in the recently decided Steve Jackson Games
case. Federal Judge Sam Sparks found that the Secret Service illegally
seized the private electronic mail of users of a customer relations bulletin
board system operated by the Jackson firm.. At the trial, Judge Sparks
roasted Secret Service agent Tim Foley for not making a simple investigation
in advance that would have shown there was no cause to snoop on E-mail. The
case demonstrates that accusations of computer crimes should be limited to
cases involving seriously harmful behavior and injurious intent, not the
mere suspicious use of a computer or a network.
In Massachusetts, efforts to put such a balanced perspective into
law are now under way. Governor William Weld has submitted computer crime
legislation based on a report of his Commission on Computer Technology &
Law, which I chaired. Commission members included law enforcement
officials, such as a bulletin board-system literate district attorney,
representatives from the computer and telecommunications industries and
civil libertarians.
The commission determined that much of what is labeled "Computer
crime" would constitute a crime regardless of the particular means of
accomplishment. Theft of a lot of money funds through manipulation of
computer accounts is grand theft. Does the computer make it any grander?
Our commission reported, and Governor Weld agreed, that changes to
the law, where needed to plug gaps, are best accomplished by modifying
existing law and building off familiar legal principles, not by passing
overly broad and untested laws specifically covering computer crime.
We found, for instance, that unauthorized access to a computer
system is not, by itself, a violation of Massachusetts law. It should be.
We therefore recommended an addition to the criminal law covering electronic
trespass with penalties of up to $1,000 in fines or 30 days in jail. The
proposed statute states that the requirement of a password constitutes the
equivalent of a posted "No Trespassing" sign.
The Massachusetts experience shows that it's possible for civil
libertarians, law enforcers and industry experts to find common ground; they
can address problems created by the spread of computers without compromising
rights. This is the stroy the media ought to pay more attention to. Enough
of these fantasies about dangerous teenagers stealing big money and
compromising national security.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Commerce
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <isqX5B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 93 11:41:53 EDT
In-Reply-To: <iBkX5B8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
If the Dept. of Commerce is SERIOUS about doing something,
have them give me a call.
Otherwise, let them read books, and shuffle through it
playing the CYA game.
:) 'course they will ahve to engage in a little commerce
of their own. Nudge, nudge.
Information wants to be free...except mine.
->ME
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: and now this from Full Disclosure
From: alex (Alex Zelchenko)
Message-ID: <amgB6B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 21:28:33 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 11:40 CDT
From: glr (Glen L Roberts)
To: editor
Status: R
PRESS RELEASE
The wily ways of hackers, crackers, and other "fraud" artists will be
explored on "Full Disclosure Live," the weekly radio program produced
by the editorial staff of Full Disclosure, the country's leading
publication on surveillance and privacy.
"Full Disclosure Live," which has been airing by satellite over the
Let's Talk Radio Network (Spacenet 3, Ch 21, 5.8 wideband audio) on
Mondays at 10pm (central), will move to a new time, Sundays at 7pm
(central) and be carried on WWCR shortwave (7.435mhz) that covers
much of the world, including the United States and Europe, starting
June 27th.
As part of its expanded coverage, "Full Disclosure Live" plans to
present a regular feature, "Forbidden Fruit," that will reveal
secrets of those who penetrate communications networks, computer
files, and credit card systems. "Once America begins to hear just how
easily the privacy of their records can be invaded by those who have
no right to this information," Full Disclosure editor and publisher
Glen L. Roberts said, "perhaps the public will demand more security
than they presently get."
Believing that electronic bulletin boards offer a communications
medium for those who know "just how flimsy are the so-called
'safe-guards' in these fields," Roberts said, "we plan to urge our
readers and listeners to make their fellow BBS users aware of
'Forbidden Fruit' and invite them to provide background for it." Full
Disclosure has opened its "Orwell Mail" system at (213) 896-1984 for
anonymous submissions to "Forbidden Fruit." U.S. Mail submissions
are also welcomed at: Box 903, Libertyville, Illinois 60048.
Those calling are urged to give examples of how communications and
computer systems are compromised. To assure anonymity, Roberts noted
that a regular Los Angeles phone line connects callers to "Orwell
Mail," not an 800 number that is capable of identifying the incoming
caller numbers. He also noted that Caller ID is not available in
California for non toll-free calls.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: vox hackers
From: lex (Lex Luthor)
Message-ID: <B30D6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 09:59:46 EDT
In-Reply-To: <mBqc6B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I think the reason some of the ex-hackers are peeved about the current
"hacking" of the net is that when we used to access systems that we should
not have the sysadmins and users typically did not know we were there. If they
did find out, it wasn't because there was any damage, and as far as I know,
there was no denial of service. When vox had its' recent problem, I and
everyone else was denied service for a number of days.
There appears to be a certain vindictiveness and adversarial flavor to the
current internet hacking attempts, whereas in the past, it was more a
curious and envious flavor. We were curious about the systems and envious
of those who legitimately had access. I am baffled by the motives for
intentionally disrupting communications and computers.
As for the LOD/MOD "war", there really wasn't one. That is one of the
biggest myths around.
So the point is, the reason some ex-hackers are complaining isn't because
vox was accessed without authorization, it is because the apparent intent
behind the intrusion was to disrupt operations. Personally, I could care
less if someone 'hacks' vox, the eff, or anywhere else. It is only when
they disrupt operations, modify or delete data, and have the intent of
performing some sort of vandalism that I take notice. Notice that I did
not say "when they invade someone's privacy", its not that I could care
less about that because I am a strong privacy advocate, its that with my
background I operate on the assumption that anytime I touch a computer, it
can and may be monitored. The monitoring/privacy invasion may be anything
from capturing EM emmissions from my monitor (tempest), wiretapping,
covert re-routing of email and file transmissions, someone with 'shell'
looking around and reading my email or implanting some sort of 'spy'
program ala the old TOPS-20 systems. Not to mention someone coming into my
house and turning on my computer to read my disks. Privacy invasion is
simply a fact of computer life, although I don't like it one bit. Those
who have not been online for 10+ years like me, erikb, digital, marauder,
et al, probably don't give much thought to the privacy of their computer
use, but recent events are helping to create an awareness of these problems.
They may think it is too difficult or 'who would want to do THAT?", but
believe me, there are plenty of people out there who get their kicks from
these things and surreptitiously perform these acts on a near daily basis.
For all the security and LE types who say: "oh how delightfully ironic, a
hacker complaining about being hacked", it is apparent that they STILL lack
an understanding of what hacking used to be about, the ethics involved
(warped as they may have been), and the intent. These new attacks are a
far cry from those perpetrated in the past. At least thats the way I see it.
Lex
PS: I just read the "lod tech journal #5" put out by that clown in Canada
who is attempting to revive the lod. For the record this new fake lod has
nothing to do with the old one and nothing to do with 'lod communications,
aka lodcom'.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Landfill BBS
From: loki (Loki)
Message-ID: <9uqe6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 16:02:43 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Hey Ken Cittarla you know I really miss the LandFill BBS, why dont
you return the hardware to it's owner so we call all enjoy the BBS and its
forum that is like this one. The Landfill was an excellent board and I
think it is a waste having the hardware sitting in your office under the
PumpCon Poster.
Oh and I hear you say hi...
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Kim's Board...
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Message-ID: <87Ve6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 17:57:54 EDT
In-Reply-To: <9uqe6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Well Kim, CNN Headline News just did a story on your board. The report
went something like this: "Treasury Department BBS backfires as hackers
steal information posted to help Treasury agents fight computer hackers."
They said you had a copy of password cracker online and that unnamed
individuals downloaded it and used it in some nefarious fashion. They went
on to say that the "...board had been erased." It was a real bullshit
report, but you might wanna check it out.
-Falconer
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Kim's Board...
From: loki (Loki)
Message-ID: <yHZe6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 19:09:09 EDT
In-Reply-To: <87Ve6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Kim had the front page of the Washington Post. Too bad they made her look
like she is a criminal (they will get my letter monday) and present her in
a evil light practicaly accussing her of assisting hackers and people who
enjoy spreading viruses to be nasty. I think it is so funny they refer to
Sci-Fi writers as experts on the underground though. Crack me up.
Subject: Re: blah
From: alex (Alex Zelchenko)
Message-ID: <J8yg6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <Xiwg6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 93 20:58:06 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
lgas (Laughing Gas) writes:
> I thought the world generally recognized 8BBS as the world's first..
>
> Mebbe I'm mistaken.
-----------------------
Probably. Bill Blue himself has said that Suess and Christensen
designed and built the first one. His was a close second.
They donn't claim to have developed the idea first. Ted
Nelson [Xanadu] in Computer Lib/The Dream Machine first published
in 1974 mentions a similar idea; and in 1976 Peoples Computing
had a nice litle piece describing how such a system could be used.
Ward Christensen is most famous for developing XModem, the transfer
protocol that is the grand-daddy of all the subsequent productions
by other authors that were such tremendous improvements.
ZModem is great.
Ward never made a nickel from these accomplishments, the CBBS <tm>
program or XModem. Had he not given them out freely he could have been
as rich as Bill Gates.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: First BBS
From: lodcom (LOD Communications)
Message-ID: <VsZH6B5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 10:08:30 EDT
In-Reply-To: <RDXH6B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Not sure what bbs was the very first, but 8BBS was the very first
Underground BBS. We should be getting a lot of the messages soon as the
guy is still working on transferring them from his TRS80 to IBM at 300 baud.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: VOX Hackers
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Message-ID: <esgi6B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <RDXH6B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 16:15:25 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:
> chemist (The Chemist) writes:
>
> > lyre (Lyre) writes:
> >
> > > delafe (Alfredo De La Fe) writes:
> > >
> > > > Personally, I think it is stupid to try and hack Mindvox. About the
> > >
> > > What we could do is something like what the MIT hackers had set up on one
> > > of the early systems.
> > >
> > > If you typed CRASH, you would crash the system. They did that because
> > > people were crashing it so much on purpose, they figured that if they mad
> > > it trivially easy to do, no one would do it since there would be no sport
> > > in it.
> > >
> > > It worked.
> > >
> >
> > getting the new software with UID's online.
> >
> > Now that I know a little more about who at least some of the people are,
> > I'd say fry them. To make it short I only know what Bruce said on the
> > phone, but there are 3 or 4 people and each one of them is being treated
> > differently based on what they did and what the motives were but the main
> > person who is responsible for the recent shit here and all over the net is
> > one of the same people Goggins called the cops on 2 years ago when LOD vs.
> > MOD started. He's not exploring or experimenting, he's deleting sites and
> > being a dickhead, which is typical.
>
> That's because MOD is full of dudes who act like they want to go to jail,
> because every time you turn around some guy from it is hassling somebody
> and what do they expect when they do that.
>
>
> $%$%$%$%$%$%$%
> ($) Ali Baba ($)
> %$%$%$%$%$%$%$
Well, after a few messages, I MUST throw in my two cents.
First of all, if Mindvox were to add a command called CRASH I garantee
you that it will be used very frequently. The difference with the "MIT
HACKERS" and a HANDFULL of so called "hackers" today, is that today those
so called "hackers" tend to be malicious. They do not do things for the
Challenge, and they don't really Hack for fun, they have a twisted
perception of fun, which is watching people bang their heads agains't the
wall after they delete 2 months work. OR- After they make someones life a
living hell.
Second, it's not that these "MOD Guys" are acting like people that
"want" to go to jail, because they ARE gong to go to jail. It is no
longer a question of "if" they are going, but "how long" they are going.
It is actually pretty sad. Prison is not a merry place.
I personally do not want to see ANYONE going to prison any longer
than they ve to, if they have to at all.
-Al
Alfredo De La Fe'
(212)-721-7601 delafe@mindvox.phantom.com
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: VOX Hackers
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Message-ID: <82Ti6B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <esgi6B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 21:02:06 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
> Second, it's not that these "MOD Guys" are acting like people that
> "want" to go to jail, because they ARE gong to go to jail. It is no
> longer a question of "if" they are going, but "how long" they are going.
> It is actually pretty sad. Prison is not a merry place.
>
Actually, I would say it depends on how you define "goingtjail." You can
be indicted, tried, found guilty, and sentenced to a long time in jail,
and still not go - if you get probation. A friend of mine was sentenced
to a year in jail, but got instant probation and never saw the inside of
a jail. Normally I wouldn't want to see anyone in jail at all, but these
guys deserve it for one thing, and for another, hey don't go to jail,
they'll be back where they were, sill hassling people.
Laughing Gas
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: VOX Hackers
From: elite (Elite Entity)
Message-ID: <09cJ6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <eXTF6B9w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 03:56:44 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
lyre (Lyre) writes:
> delafe (Alfredo De La Fe) writes:
>
> > Personally, I think it is stupid to try and hack Mindvox. About the
>
> What we could do is something like what the MIT hackers had set up on one
> of the early systems.
>
> If you typed CRASH, you would crash the system. They did that because
> people were crashing it so much on purpose, they figured that if they made
> it trivially easy to do, no one would do it since there would be no sport
> in it.
>
> It worked.
>
A[)[)enDum: MIT d0ez th1$ n0 l0ngeR. \/\/HAt lyR3 iz tAlk1ng ab0ut iz 20
YeArz ag0. s1mply \/\/1tn3$$ th3 cl0s1ng uV gNu/m1t (br1ll!anTlY c0vEr3d
bY mr mArk0ff 4 tHE t1mez). 0f c0Ur$3 th1s waz n3c3sSary. 1 r3m3mBEr
ppl t3ll1nG m3 h0w They w3re hack1ng gnu. h0w cAn u hAck a System wh3re
th3 suPeruzerz pw = UZerNAme?!@!? buT 1'll b3t my b00tzzz tHAt 1f th3
'CRASH' c0mmAnd waz 1mplEment3d her3, th3 d1aluP w0ulD s1mply r1ng and
r1ng and r1ng aFter a ph3w m1nutezzz. 1 th1n/< tHAt hum1l1ty hAz
d1$app3arEd 1n hAkrz 1n the PA$t f3w yeArz. p3rHapzzz tHAt iz b3cAuze
1nc3 u c ur hAndl3 1n a magaz1ne aRt1cle @ 15 yRz 0ld u th1nk u r k-Rad 2
a T. l3x iz sl8d 2rdz t3ch stuff n0t "Mond0 m0sher iz f1ght1ng OFB, d1d
u h3ar?". v1rTu3 iz th3 /<ey, caut10n, discretion, humility etc. 0f
th0ze l0d cREat0rz, th31r RelAt1vely smAll b3g1nning eg0z hatH Shrunk 2
n0th1ng (perHApz w/ th3 except10n 0f bl00Da><3) az th3y hAve leaRn3d what
th3y wanT3d 2, the1r v1ew 0f the \/\/0rlD exPAnd3d & tHAt waz tHAt. n0w
1tz l3ss syStmz & 2 mUCh 0f a gam3. que lAst1ma!
EE
FFH!
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Mark.
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <Vu9m7B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 16:45:42 EDT
In-Reply-To: <sH9m7B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
thug: don't deify the man...
Lex, Jim, et.al.: Since most of this hits close to home for me,
since I was th focal point for quite a bit of angst directed out of
the New York area for quite some time, I will probably seem kind
of biased in my following comments.
Of all those involved with anything MOD, Mark certainly
is one of the least menacing of the group. Having interacted
with him since the late 80's in several different forums, and
under several different circumstances, I do tend to agree
that jail would be a waste of Mark Abene, and when taken out
of the relative safety and security of the world, I think Mark
would end up causing far more harm INSIDE jail than he ever
would hve outside.
I have several friends in jails. Federal, state, etc.
The kinds of people they interact with know precisely
what skills computer hackers posess that they can use.
And, as everyone knows, hackers love to talk shop.
Whether it means showing the guys how to hold down the pound sign
for 2 minutes to disable the timer on the prison phone, whether
it means getting a line on who will buy red-boxes and/or cloned
cell phes, or whether it means finding people who REALLY know what to
do with a wire tap or credit cards... hackers in prison will
lead to crime.
I'm not saying that there would be a Draper-esque scenario where
Mark is threatened with harsh physical violence unless he
spills his guts...noone I know hass ever had this happen.
What I am saying, is that just through normal dialogue with other
inmates, word will eventually reach someone who will know
the right questions to ask, the right bargains to offer, etc..
I am mixed on my feelings about John & Julio however. I think
that these guys would cut off their grandmother's fingers
to sell the rings. Being in prison for them would give them
the opportunity to find a much bigger market for the skills they already
so eagerly want to market. (It pains me, but as much as I'd love
the thought of these guys rotting in a cell, I know it wouldn't
do a damn bit of good.)
So what should happen? Give them jobs? Mark, perhaps...although
his attitude surely prohibits any but the most tolerant of
companies from making him an offer. And on top of that, a mutiple
felony count? And a repeat offender? Not much hope.
Knowing that, we again face the typical inner city hacker
problem....forced into an unpleasant environment, with little or no
chance of ever advancing out. Lured into crime by the illusion
of power and the seduction of fast money. A vicious circle waiting
to be drawn.
It seems pretty hopeless to me. Send them to jail, (to send a message
that crime doesnt pay, although as we have seen for nearly
a decade, hacker busts deterr NOTHING) and educate the habitual
criminals. Let them off with a warning and leave them to again
discover shut doors and frustration, drawing them back into
the one environ where they truly are in control and weild
power...and get raided again.
Sad.
->ME
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: And here right in the middle of something....
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Message-ID: <s9sP7B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <yu6L7B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 02:01:15 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
cudigest (Jim Thomas) writes:
> I tend to agree with Lex's comments. Also, making Mark serve time
> would be a travesty. It would serve no purpose and simply cost the
> taxpayers needless expense. For these types of offenses, altenerative
> sentencing is far preferrable to doin' time. I would hope the judge
> agrees, especially because the offense are not recent.
> x
>
Why shouldn't Mark do time? It would be fun for him.
All the food he can eat...
EXCELLENT Medical benefits
A JOB
An area to work out
Basket Ball, Track, Volly Ball, hand ball, etc...
Televisions EVERYWHERE
Private bathrooms and showers
and what I am sure will be many a convicted hackers personal favorite is:
The new Prison Telephone System! (ITS= Inmate Telephone System)
Prison isn't what it used to be...
(Still is a re BIG pain, it's hard on everyone, but hey, you have to
make the best out of any situtation you find yourself in)
Alfredo De La Fe'
(212)-721-7601 delafe@phantom.com
- - - - - - - - -
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