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Subject: Distortions
From: terminus (Len Rose)
Message-ID: <98LHoB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 17:44:07 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I found out the hard way that lies and distortions often are viewed as the
absolute truth , merely because their sources were the Government, and major
publications. It is a shame, but what people think of you is based on that
alone. I guess it's just another vivid example that people who own the
media get to define the "truth" .. I can only assume that it will always be
this way until more and more of our society gets their information from a
truly electronic media system in which we all have a chance to get the real
facts distributed by doing so ourselves without fear of censorship, or
reprisal.
Mark is facing a very difficult time. He is basically against the wall, and
we must all try to help him get through this. I don't care whether he is
guilty or not. The real fear is that he will get destroyed in the sentencing
process. Sometimes I wonder just who really runs the government. Oh well, I
am no longer able to speak freely. Perhaps someone who has civil rights can
carry on this discussion...
Len
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Subject: Hey Len!
From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa)
Message-ID: <9J0HoB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 02:08:07 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Didn't they give those back to you? You must have forgot to pick up your
civil rights on the way out the door in your rush to get back to freedom!
(Insert an emoticon)
Patrick
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Subject: The "Hacker's Ethic". It is dead..
From: ahmed (Ahmed Kufuti)
Message-ID: <Ho8JoB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 03:22:40 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Someone earlier brought up a good point regarding the state of technology
and how affordable it is, and perhaps I would like to expand on it with
the views of my own.
People like Emmanuel Goldstien and Phiber Optik and other hackers have
always stated that it is "okay to break into other peoples computers if
you don't do any damage", "it's okay to explore, and learn, etc..etc..".
The "hacker ethic" of the 1970's and 1980's, as stated above made sense then
because really powerful computers (Unix and VAX and such) were far too
expensive for the average individual to afford, so it was only "right" for
hackers to break in to learn how to use such machines. I tend to agree
with the hacker ethic on this.
But does this make any sense in 1992? I do think not. Time changes many
things, you see. If you want to learn Unix, you can build a Unix system
for around $800. This would basically be a 386 with 2 or 4 megabytes RAM,
a 40-80 MB hard disk, and something like Linux, Coherent or 386BSD. And
such a system would be more powerful than the 3B2 and VAX 11/750 machines
that people hacked into in the 70's & 80's. Plus you would have super user
access and everything would be legal and no worries.
So does it really make any sense at all to keep the hacker ethic alive
when such powerful hardware has become so cheap? It sounds really silly
to say that it's okay to hack into some else's Unix machine today because you
want to learn how to use Unix. It is too silly.. It sounds almost
hypocritical and people will only think that the only reason for breaking
into another machine is so you can read their private data files, and not
so you can learn shell programming or whatever. I also think that another
reason why hacker break into machines, which is never stated publically,
is the "rush" or excitement that they feel from the danger of breaking the
law. People I have spoken to say this rush can be quite addictive, almost
like the heroin.
Mr. Goldstien, I think it is time for you to get new slogans because
repeating the "hacker ethic" in this time of cheap access to powerful
technology makes you look quite foolish from my point of view, and from
the point of view of others. Stop saying we are only "exploring" or
"learning" by hacking when this is not the case in the 1990's. You can
pick up books on Unix and a copy of Coherent for $99 and accomplish
exactly the same thing without breaking any laws.
respectfully,
ahmed
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Subject: ethics
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Message-ID: <200JoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 04:18:48 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
You going to give me the $800 to buy a unix box? Didn't think so.
Moot point, because that isn't the issue.
To explore and learn new things is. If you don't like that, fine.
You can complain. But complaining isn't going to accomplish much of
anything, except maybe wasting a lot of time.
Humankind hasn't prospered by sitting on its behind, but by exploring new
things and ideas. To stretch the limits of technology to improve our lives,
and the world. The question is, do you want to be known as one of the
COMPLAINERS, or one of the DO-ERS?
In order to improve the technology of the world around you, you must first
understand it. We all must. It's our moral obligation as human beings.
The rewards of improving our lives and the lives of our fellow man/woman
are much too great to yield to persecution and blatant ignorance.
THAT is the Hacker Ethic. Not some self-righteous, over-simplistic clap-trap.
Here is truth. And if you can't see the truth, then there is no hope for you.
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Subject: another thing...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Message-ID: <sk3ooB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 18:20:27 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
On a more personal level, have any of you ever had a gun pointed at your
head? How about two guns, in the bed you sleep in, in your own home, by
two complete strangers, accompanied by 10 others? No, you say?
Well, believe me, it does wonders for one's faith in the justice system.
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Subject: Gunz...
From: wtap (Wire Tap!)
Message-ID: <Z1iPoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 00:15:46 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I have always found that to be the most inappropriate and insane action by
any law agency. I was once at a meeting of the New York Personal Computer
Users Group. I believe if memory serves me, Phiber was on the panel, along
with Donald Delaney, Katie Hafner, Mike Godwin, and Emmanual Goldstien.
After all sorts of hissing and booing by some of the audience (which, mind
you was completely uncalled for on account that it began the second Phiber
began to answer a question. I think he had said "the reason tha..." when
he was interrupted) one hacker in the crowd took a bold step and stood up
and asked Mr. Delaney (who is member of the New York State SS or something
similar):
"How do you justify the use of a shotgun in apprehending a 14 year old 95
pound kid?"
Delaney's response was:
"I know of the case of which you speak <name ommitted, he knew the hacker
who was asking the question>. In the case of <again, name of the
apprehended hacker ommitted>, the shotguns were not drawn. Only after the
convolutions of the youngster's mother were they drawn in hopes they would
calm her down. I do not need to justify what didnt happen."
Or something similar. The shotguns were NOT drawn according to Delaney,
but WERE drawn according to the busted hacker. In fact, they were drawn on
him as he was emerging from the shower, buck naked, dripping wet. I would
tend to believe the hacker. Stories of shotuns drawn and Clint Eastwood
look alike SS man are commonplace. Something is very wrong. That alone
should eliminate all doubt that this doesn't happen.
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Subject: Actually...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Message-ID: <2wXPoB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 05:37:24 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
...just knowing how strange "zod's" parents were, I wouldn't be too sure
who to believe. First of all, it's well known that his mom sort of
thought that they were the "Manson gang", "coming to kill her and her
family". A normal assumption, no? Secondly, judging by the frequency at
which "zod" told the truth half the time, I wouldn't be so quick to believe.
And lastly, Delaney arrested me in Jan 1991. No guns (certainly not
shotguns), and I'm a bit bigger than "zod". Cuffs though, there were cuffs.
And don't forget, the idea of shotguns to sustain a 14 year old naked kid
sounded just scrumptious to the media.
Also, the majority of individuals in my home in December were from the
FBI, not the SS (only a couple SS), and if you've ever been at the
Marshall's office, it appears that they ARE in it for the glamor and
glitz, at least some of them from their suits and slicked hair-cuts (and
attitudes). And attitude was no stranger, one December morning...
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Subject: Felonies?
From: emmanuel (Emmanuel Goldstein)
Message-ID: <8TPRoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 04:38:06 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Someone posted a while back that Zod committed some serious felonies while
hacking around various systems. I find that very hard to believe unless
you buy into the notion that hacking itself is a felony to be dealt with
in the same manner as theft or even violent crime. We are currently
engaged in a very real war of terminology; the authorities wish to make
hacking synonymous with crime. Judging from what a lot of you are posting,
they've made a lot of progress. I stand by what I've said in the past:
hacking is healthy ansd beneficial. It also happens to be a part of human
nature and I don't take kindly to any attempt to manipulate my values,
particularly when the threat of force is involved. When you hold up
something like credit card fraud and make it analogous to hacking, you're
falling right into their trap. Raids and indictments will make all the
headlines, but the most important and vulnerable part of this whole thing
will always be our values. I think we'd better start doing a better job of
defending them. Nobody else will.
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Subject: bottom line...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Message-ID: <5iV3oB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 92 05:14:39 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
This is an argument that will probably go on forever and no one will ever
agree on, but I maintain that had it not been for certain ethical and
wholly moral activities which were misconstrued and termed "illegal" in
the past, I would not possess much of the knowledge I do. People who know
me, know that I take great pride in educating people on the subject of
"how things work", and I go great lengths in my private studies to make
sure the information is technically accurate when I present it. Most often,
technical information which may be publically available is simply out of
the reach of most people, or the information simply isn't in a form they
can understand. I enjoy explaining things, when I feel that the listener
is genuinely curious and fascinated by the subject, and does not intend on
milking information to use for illicit or destructive purposes. I believe
that technological knowledge should be available to anyone who wants to
learn about it to use it and build upon it in a positive way, to educate
others, and to ultimately improve the world around us by moving onwards
and upwards. In an increasingly computerized society, it becomes more and
more important to the point of becoming almost mandatory that people
should understand the technological world around them. And certainly, if
they really STRIVE to know, as so many people do, there should be no
barriers. I got back from the "Off the Hook" radio show with Emmanuel
Goldstein a few hours ago, and it's clearly evident from the callers that
there is a growing concensus who have a genuine curiosity to know and
understand. Punishing people's insatiable thirst for knowledge is rather
backward, if not blatantly ridiculous. But as long as there exists a will
to stamp out an entire subculture, a will fueled by ignorance, hate, and
obvious abuses of power by certain law enforcement types and corporate
entities, there will always be problems.
The bottom line is that more and more, people everywhere want to know how
things work. What makes things tick. To UNDERSTAND. And all too often,
those who want to show the way get caught up in scandalous persecution.
It's the way things are, and we need to do something about it.
And people are trying.
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Subject: HakKing is BAD
From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa)
Message-ID: <BeN4oB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 92 15:16:34 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
"Is it ethically ok to access computers that don't belong to you?"
That's a very un-answerable question since it will vary greatly from one
individual to the next. You'd have to define "ethical" first and then make
sure that everyone involved adhered to the same interpretation of the word,
and then give everyone a BIG COLORFUL BADGE that says "AUTHORIZED" and follow
it all up with a firm handshake looking deeply into their eyes and saying "I
love you" and . . . umm, where was I, oh yeah....
It is my personal belief that NO ONE has the RIGHT to access any computer,
network, device, or place; virtual or physical, that does not belong to them,
or where they have not been CLEARLY invited by the owner's or representatives
of same.
If EVIL SUPER-BAD MEGACORP has 24 Connection Machines accessible via local
dialup, and the root password is "abcdef" you still do not have the "right"
to access their machines, much less take any sort of action against them.
But ya know, there's right and wrong, good and evil, anthracite and puce, and
then there's stupidity. While you have the absolute right to take a new
Ferrari, leave the keys in the ignition, the window rolled down, and park it
in Harlem.... there's this wonderful thing called COMMON SENSE that
says, "Gee ya know... that may not be a very good idea!" Computer
security is very similar to that. While I know a lot of people who, um...
look at things... and very few of them have any sort of harmful intentions,
much less interest in the data they gain access to... I also trust their
judgement about as much as I trust the average 6th grader's. They don't
mean any harm, none-the-less it certainly isn't helpful to me for anyone
else to have access to MY PERSONAL JUNK.
What I'm finding more and more, is people who have sensitive material on their
computer, just aren't hooking them into networks. As an example there's my
father, and a lotta his friends. They have contracts with the government and
various military agencies, they have a lotta stuff on their machines that
is considered "classified" or sensitive. Their solution to security, is
purely physical in most cases. They don't know much about Unix, and they
don't wanna know, they don't read news, or want to get email from people,
they just don't bother to plug their personal machines into the ethernet.
The only way to get at its contents is to physically steal the thing.
When you're running simulations or something that is extremely processor
intensive, then obviously it has to go on other machines, or over
networks, but for the most part, what's really "sensitive" is just
information that isn't meant to be publicly accessible.
What comprises "sensitive" material varies greatly, company X's SUPER NEW
ULTRA-SECRET THREE WEEK PLAN, is probably of interest to nobody, except
COMPANY Y who is in competition with 'em.
All things are relative; right now the attitude is that people find this lack
of "security" scary, so they run around in little circles, call up various law
enforcement agencies, who in turn grab their guns and kick in doors and
make a big fuss over it.
When people are scared, they tend to do silly things. People ARE *VERY*
afraid right now, of a lot of things in general, and this is one area in
which fear can be very effectively channeled and focused on THE BAD GUY,
who in most cases is represented as some teenager who is personally
responsible for EVERYTHING wrong with their lives in general, and their
computer's in particular.
None of it bears any relation to reality, but then again, neither does life
most of the time.
Patrick
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Subject: |\/|y th0+z
From: vortechs (Vor Techs)
Message-ID: <LTc9oB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 04:16:08 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
i believe that there is nothing wrong with maliscious hacking...it would
seem that if someone was caught and hadnt actually destroyed or altered
anything, and there was no evidence of them turning a buck by doing it
that the company would be more greatful than suspicious...after all the
Hacker pointed out a security flaw which could be exploited by someone
much less nice.
I believe that information is power, Ialso believe it should be widely
available to anyone who wants it...power to the people. I know of
several friends of mine who have illegally( in the laws eyes) gained
access to various systems and used it to learn...they were never caught
and are now in fact writing software for some of the same places they
hacked.
System access is not a right, but more of a privelege or ability
(depending on how access is gained). I think that those who can
successfully make it into a system without permission can teach all of us
something, after all they possess knowledge that the majority of the
public isnt exposed to
Hacking isnt a crime
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Subject: ?
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Message-ID: <c0H9oB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 06:13:35 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
That's a rather simple-minded attitude. Of COURSE there's something wrong
with malicious hacking! I don't think you're all too clear as to what
MALICIOUS means. It means evil. Destructive. Detrimental. If someone
REALLY hadn't damaged anything, they're not doing anything MALICIOUS.
(And I don't want to see any wise guys saying, "Well, just you BEING there
is damaging!" That's nonsense.) In fact, the words 'malicious' and
'hacking' don't even belong in the same sentence. And there's a hell of a
lot more to hacking than defeating security. (So you got in... THEN WHAT???)
This rather juvenile notion that by entering a system, you're somehow
helping the sysadmin is silly. Does he WANT to be helped? Does he even CARE?
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he hates you for being there. In that case, he
certainly doesn't want your help. Do you really expect anyone to believe
that you enter systems because you intend to HELP them? Come on. That's
more of an excuse than anything else. If you're there to LEARN something
for yourself, because you have no other way to do so, that's different.
Or maybe you're just curious. Or maybe you really are an evil, malicious,
destructive person.
If you're going to do something, you sure as hell should at least know WHY
you're doing it, and not make up some lame excuses. Because if you do
something foolish and don't know why, some very angry people are going to
end up TELLING you why. And you may not like their point of view,
especially if what they think aren't really your own reasons.
So make a choice: You can do foolish things and give foolish reasons for
doing them, or you can act responsibly and explain your reasons sensibly.
It's hard to argue with someone who has common sense on their side,
although people tend to do it anyway.
Good nite.
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Subject: Re: ?
From: terminus (Len Rose)
Message-ID: <V639oB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <c0H9oB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 13:45:06 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
phiber (Phiber Optik) writes:
> That's a rather simple-minded attitude. Of COURSE there's something wrong
> with malicious hacking! I don't think you're all too clear as to what
> MALICIOUS means. It means evil. Destructive. Detrimental. If someone
> REALLY hadn't damaged anything, they're not doing anything MALICIOUS.
> (And I don't want to see any wise guys saying, "Well, just you BEING there
> is damaging!" That's nonsense.) In fact, the words 'malicious' and
> 'hacking' don't even belong in the same sentence. And there's a hell of a
> lot more to hacking than defeating security. (So you got in... THEN WHAT???)
>
> This rather juvenile notion that by entering a system, you're somehow
> helping the sysadmin is silly. Does he WANT to be helped? Does he even CARE
> Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he hates you for being there. In that case, he
> certainly doesn't want your help.
I know from experience most administrators are so busy that they do not
have all the time needed to make sure their systems are secure. From what I
have seen, on mosat sites, system admin tasks are secondary, the main being
software development or network support. Some people I know are working 20
hours a day just to keep even.
As someone pointed out earlier, the days of breaking into a system just
because you wish to learn are over. You can obtain enough experience on
Unix or networks by bringing up your own equipment at home or the office.
Hell,
I see used Suns going for $900 with hard disks and operating systems.. Or
alternately you can obtain bsd 386 and bring something up on an Intel
platform. If you are just plain flat broke, you can get accounts on public
access systems or a account on a local internet site.. Of course
I am speaking to people who already now of all this. Perhaps my words will
have some benefit on the new wave of people who are about to see Mindvox
for the first time.
> Do you really expect anyone to believe
> that you enter systems because you intend to HELP them? Come on. That's
> more of an excuse than anything else. If you're there to LEARN something
> for yourself, because you have no other way to do so, that's different.
That excuse went the same way that "When they catch you, they'll hire you"
did.. I always despised people who were naieve to believe that.
> Or maybe you're just curious. Or maybe you really are an evil, malicious,
> destructive person.
Curiosity is great. That is what hopefully spurs us all on. BUT .. I
maintain that there is no need of doing anything illegal nowdays to
satisfy that curiosity.... There are enough friendly admins on the
internet to let you have a guest account. Then, with their knowledge and
cooperation, sure go ahead, try to locate security problems. You get the
same rush as always, just that it's legal then.. They you have helped
them,you have done what certain people say they are doing "helping"
,etc,etc. So, what can I say.. it just doesn't wash anymore.. I give away
accounts on any system I run because I know I cannot locate every
flaw in my security.. I don't have the time. Then, when my friends point
something out to me I am usually damned glad.
> If you're going to do something, you sure as hell should at least know WHY
> you're doing it, and not make up some lame excuses. Because if you do
> something foolish and don't know why, some very angry people are going to
> end up TELLING you why. And you may not like their point of view,
> especially if what they think aren't really your own reasons.
Or you may not like their point of view because they are federal and don't
even understand the difference between a good act and an evil act. It is
so hard to find anyone in law enforcement who does understand the
difference.
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Subject: ...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Message-ID: <eoX0oB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 00:44:13 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I never cease to be surprised when people smugly state "you don't have to
hack into something, why, you can BUY your own unix box for 'x' hundred
dollars." I had no idea that unix is all there ever was. There really
isn't anything else out there? Just unix??? Wow. Wait, isn't this Earth
in the 20th century? Whoops! Silly me! Back into the TARDIS!
<whoosh!>
That's like saying "Columbus didn't have to discover the New World and
annoy the natives, he had plenty of land in Europe to play with!"
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: ...
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Message-ID: <JPy0oB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <eoX0oB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 01:06:30 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
phiber (Phiber Optik) writes:
>
> That's like saying "Columbus didn't have to discover the New World and
> annoy the natives, he had plenty of land in Europe to play with!"
>
That's a strange analogy, but let me take a stab at it anyway. You see
the natives only had bows and arrows, Columbus had guns. In the case of
hackers, if you consider yourself to be an explorer (ie: Columbus), you're
going to be dealing with natives (corporations) which are much larger than
you, and have the government on their side as well. If Columbus had bows
and arrows and the natives had machine guns, then things would have turned
out to be different.
Now personally, I would love to go exploring and digging through the juicy
files of <insert your favorite secure installation here> but
unfortunately, it's called tresspassing, and unless I have more weapons
than they do, I am not going to run in there screaming something
Emmanuel-Goldstien-ish like "Information yearns to be free!" only to have
my head blown off by a squad of goons with machine guns. Corporations
don't have Uzi-carrying goon squads (then again, maybe they do) but they
do have lawyers and are in bed with the government (SS,FBI,Justice Dept),
so it's basically the same thing.
Mark, whether you like it or not, in the real world "Might makes right."
The justice system is just a puppet of the corporations. The justice
system enforces laws passed by Congress and the President. The Congress
is owned by special interest groups (corporations), and the President is
owned and payed for by political action committees (corporations). If you
ask me who is running this country, I would say IBM, AT&T, GM, and Exxon,
and the rest of the Fortune 100. Yeah, I know it sucks, but there is no
reason to put yourself up as a sacrificial lamb just to point this out.
People much more powerful and influential than you have already tried (ie:
Abbie Hoffman) and were destroyed in the process.
Thug
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Subject: Lockpick
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Message-ID: <Hu2aPB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 15:11:52 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
The lockpick would be charged with trespassing and/or breaking & entering
and/or bugulary (if he took anything) -- all appropriate charges; he/she
would also be held responsible for the amount it cost to fix/replace the
picked lock if it were damaged -- once again, appropriate in this case
and, one could say, also appropriate in computer-cracking cases.
The lockpick would, however, not be held liable for the installation of a
multiple-thousand dollar burglar alarm system if the house owner decided
that such protection be required to insure that such intrusion not happen
again. Such action would be up to the house-owner who would have to decide
what prudent action is required to protect her/his property from intrusion
or bugulary. This type of liability is, however, charged by the
government against alleged or convicted computer intruders -- see the
$230,000 restitution responsibility contained in the sentencing of Riggs,
Darden & Grant and the $360,000 damages to Southwestern Bell contained in
the indictments against Phiber, Corrupt & Outlaw. If this type of
liability stands up, the motto of corporate America could turn out to be:
"Let a hacker intrude and fix your security holes." -- why bother
tightening security? Catch the first guy and make him pay for it.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Luddites and apathy
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Message-ID: <Ty5aPB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 16:19:16 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Phiber writes:
>thug: I ignore points made by people who accept defeat so easily, without
>challenging wrong doing.
Sadly, we can't ignore their points. I find those who sit back in apathy
and grouse about conditions to be far more dangerous than those who
abuse their power. The mass of inertia of the apathetic folk is much more
difficult to overcome. They tend to grouse about conditions, gripe about
those who try to change them, and murk about in self-pity for their plight.
Attacking abuse of power is fairly easy. Mobilizing the coconut throwers
is not. Self-styled luddites rarely have any real understanding of
what Luddism was or what it entailed. Sad, ain't it?
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Explorers
From: king (Randy King)
Message-ID: <iygBPB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 20:38:17 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
This is sort of a tangent but gets back to the Columbus analogy. Hackers
are explorers entering a foreign land just as Columbus was an explorer
entering this (then-)foreign land. But, let's say that the Indians had
machine guns, anti-matter rays, and localized nuclear weaponry... And
lets again say that Columbus was a fungus (poor analogy from a hacker's
point of view, but bear with me). The Indians see this fungus growing a
bit but they do nothing about it because they figure no big deal. This
fungus then eats all their food or eats the Indians or whatever because
of their inaction. What am I getting at? I don't know...maybe if the
Indians had inspected the fungus closer than they did, they could have
realized it was a problem and could have done something to prevent its
spread to the point of damage to them (in this case death).
System administrators *KNOW* that there are holes in operating systems,
***SPECIFICALLY*** Unix, yet many of them do little to nothing to take
care of them. I don't know about you guys, but I got my vaccinations
when I was too young to realize what good it was...
TK
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Hackers
From: butler (Tom Butler)
Message-ID: <60eePB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 10:54:52 EDT
In-Reply-To: <1kmDPB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Most of the hackers I know are quite ethical. Their only quest is for
access to resources and information. Occasionally they might cross the
line and abuse their privledges, but for the most part they harm noone.
When I am in the position to hire computer professionals, I am going to
look at "hackers" first and foremost, regardless of what they have done
in the way of hacking. If you give someone the responsibility of
supporting a system, they can hack all they want while doing something
good for their company.
The Butler...
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: The role of Today's Hacker
From: lex (Lex Luthor)
Message-ID: <NXgTqB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 00:28:10 EDT
In-Reply-To: <79ZPqB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I think the role of today's hacker is not to test system security for the
owners good, but rather to expose those things that threaten the majority.
For example, I do not think TRW would have as easily decided to give out free
credit reports and make it easier to correct mistakes if it weren't for
hackers helping to bring attention to them through the various breakins
and articles (such as those in 2600 not to mention the "popular" media).
It may still be illegal for them to prove that people's conversations are
not safe from eavesdropping but there is a service to the public that is
done in the process. I am not encouraging today's hackers to go out and
break the law if it is in the public interest but if they are going to
hack let it be for those reasons as opposed to "helping" a system admin to
fix their security problems which they probably know about anyways but
don't have the funds and/or the time to do anything about.
By the way, how many "reporters/journalists" have broken the law to break
a big story? Most people don't seem to have a problem with it as long as
its for the public good.
And don't misunderstand me, as some will probably do anyways, I am just
trying to encourage a debate.
Just remember every day you wake up you now have less privacy than the
previous day. Perhaps hackers should devote more time to bringing
attention to "big brother-ish" systems which can threaten everyone, rather
than helping rich companies get richer by shoring up their security
weaknesses. Or worse yet, by trying to gain personally from their hacking
exploits (although few may actually do it, many probably try it).
Lex
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: The role of Today's Hacker
From: dead (Bruce Fancher)
Message-ID: <94PTqB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 03:46:31 EDT
In-Reply-To: <NXgTqB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Lex, you brought up the subject of journalists breaking the law
for a story. I don't know if you quite consider Geraldo a journalist, but
he and his staff "research" for the trash TV show on Hackers wasn't exactly
conducted ethically. I spoke with some of his producers for about an hour on
various technical matters and details of the how and why of hacking. And
just as I was begining to truly believe they would do a semi-acurate
piece, they started in with the tabloid stuff. First they asked me if I
could pull Geraldo's credit rating for them so that a hacker could present
it to him on the show (shocking!). They then asked me if I or someone I
knew could hack into the secret Deptartment of Education computer which
held a record of Jesse Jackson's unpaid student loans. They've got great
imaginations but criminal minds. It's unbelievable that a major TV
personality would commit a crime in the course of portraying innocent
parties as criminals. Ah well... The show got 16 share anyway so what
does it matter?
Bruce Fancher -+- dead@phantom.com
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Message-ID: <9RXXRB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 20:56:07 EDT
In-Reply-To: <XmoXRB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
> Hate to say it, or not, come to think of it I don't hate to say it... I
> just don't give a shit, at all. There isn't anything in this country that
> I've found worth following.
Then, pardon my French, but the fuck are you here? If everything is so bad
and you're so apathetic, go the hell somewhere else.
It's probably because I'm younger (born in the sixties) that I'm not
completely cynical that I still care about my country.
I imagined the reason we all gather here to post messages is that we have
interest in what goes on in our lives, and those things that might change
them for the better or worse should be discussed, or at least taken notice of.
The tone of this is meant to be inquisitive and forceful, but not too
insulting. Just thought I'd set that straight. (You'll know when I'm
rattling sabres ..)
Trying to feed those hungry for thought,
Chrome Sync
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Message-ID: <804XRB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <9RXXRB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 23:16:30 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:
> > Hate to say it, or not, come to think of it I don't hate to say it... I
> > just don't give a shit, at all. There isn't anything in this country that
> > I've found worth following.
>
> Then, pardon my French, but the fuck are you here? If everything is so bad
> and you're so apathetic, go the hell somewhere else.
Got a better place? Moving is a hassle.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Hacking Life
From: king (Randy King)
Message-ID: <ZBmRsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 21:36:46 EDT
In-Reply-To: <m7gRsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
While I think Universe is a TOTAL flake 8-), I think that there's
something to what he has to say...
I couldn't hack my way into a Unix box much less out of one, but I think
hacking involves an understanding of the grand scheme of things. I try
to do this with everything I get involved in in life, or at least to the
point where it seems to be leading to an end. Like with the nets, I like
to know where all of the net resources are or at least know that I have a
place that I can put my finger on to find out. I like to know all of the
little interesting utilities like whois and nslookup, etc. At work, I
like to know the reason I'm doing what I'm doing, what happens after I do
it, and why. Dealing with people, I like to know why they react one way
to something I say or another because of a tone in my voice.
Maybe I'm a flake too...
TK
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: redeye (Sigmund Obispo)
Message-ID: <Fa9TsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 92 07:26:14 EDT
In-Reply-To: <ZBmRsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
You're a flake Randy.
I learned alot about the 'grand scheme of things' and found
its amazing how much you can accomplish if you put your mind
to it. Flexibility, adaptation and vision are all traits of
success, be it hacking or elsewhere.
RE
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Message-ID: <40ywsB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 19:04:26 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Fa9TsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
The whole attitude and curiosity that surrounds hacking is really the
result of an already inherent mentality, I believe. Hackers are by nature
curious people, who crave to know how things work. The hackers that I
know (and this is admission that I am no hacker...just a wannabe) are the
kind of people that need to understand everything around them. At the
same time, because they generally succeed in knowing how most things
around them work, they develop (sometimes well deserved) egos. The
mindset that prevails amongst hackers is not something that develop after
they start. However, there is a difference that is hard to put a finger
on. There are many "UNix Wizards" and high level programmers out there
with the same curiosity and craving for knowledge that hackers have. Yet
many of them don't spend any time at all attempting to gain illegal access
to various machines. Hackers tend to have a daring attitude, I think, and
their daring attitude is also a part of their ego. I'm not busting on
hackers as egomaniacs, by the way. LIke a good athlete, if you can walk
the walk, then by all means talk the talk.
Ozone
- Surreal McCoy
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Message-ID: <yZeXsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 00:43:57 EDT
In-Reply-To: <40ywsB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Out of all the hackers and crackers I know, I don't know any who don't
take their egos with them all over the place when they are around in
cyberspace, generally act like dicks. Most of the reason why they are
different from the Unix Expert who doesn't break the law, is because the
Unix Expert has a life, however small it is, in the real world. The hacker
is usually a total Melvin and his life is his identity in cyberspace.
$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Message-ID: <D746sB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 92 17:28:36 EDT
In-Reply-To: <7ww6sB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
first of all, hi tox, hi tmh.
Anyway... Maybe you guys should try to describe who you are talking about
when you say "hackers". From my experience in cyberspace, most everyone
who is a sysadmin (a good one), a programmer, or whathaveyou, is a
hazcker in some way or another. Mostof the people who hang around in
#hack and so on are generally school kids or people who have just
graduated and gotten their diplomas, and don't know what to do, and don't
have any goal in their hacking, and so one. There should be a
distinction made between the malevolent hacker and the benign hacker, as
well as the deviant hacker, the social hacker, the computer freak, and
the legit hacker. Most of the people who I've talked to who ppear to be
good hackers do not hang out on irc, bbses, or the nets at all. Alot of
people I know who don't go around bragging about things or showing off
their egos are much better hackers than the best from #Hack. Oh well, my
terminal is really slowing down, so I'm going to cut this short.. but you
guys get the idea.
Laughing Gas
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Blah
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Message-ID: <1cqDTB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <ueeDTB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 19:10:59 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
terminus (Len Rose) writes:
>
> Blah , blah, blah..
That was simply fascinating! Thanks for sharing.
//=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
\=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
\\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Book Signing
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Message-ID: <ZRTiTB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 92 13:12:46 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Thursday night, the 29th, the Austin chapter of the EFF hosted a book
signing and speaking opportunity for Bruce Sterling on the UT Austin
campus. The room used for the event has a capacity of 135 and there was
standing room only...A very good turnout indeed! The attendees were a mixed
bag of university staff and faculty, students, attorneys, cops, and
testosterone fueled hacker wannabes. Bruces' talk was very entertaining
and even Larry Coutorie (law enforcement type) was laughing pretty hard
through most of it.
During the Q & A session, I asked Bruce if he thought MindVOX (which he
affectionately refers to as "Hacker Hell") was providing a useful platform
for all the denizens of cyberspace to air their opinions and, while hosing
down the opposition, also enlighten them as to why things often work the
way they do? He immediately laughed out loud for a few seconds and then
proceeded to give Pat Kroupa a glowing plug as the ultimate "80's style
hacker d00d." He also pointed out that, "Yes it's (VOX) providing a forum
for discussion, but that the usual amount of cannabalism among hackers is
still present." He then quickly added that he believes that to be the norm
and that it is simply (as he also so eloquently points out in Hacker
Crackdown) part of the way in which the power structure in cyberspace is
sorted out.
All in all a very good evening...I dished out $25.00 for an autographed
copy of the book, but it must be noted that all of the profits for the
evening were being donated to the EFF Austin chapter.
Falconer
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Hacking for Profit?
From: forbes (Forbes Reporter)
Message-ID: <ZBBeuB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 13:17:34 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Hacking for Profit? Has anyone ever offered to pay you (or a friend) to get
into a certain system and alter, destroy or retrieve information? Can you
earn money hacking credit card numbers, access codes or other information? Do
you know where to sell it? Then I'd like to hear from you. I'm doing
research for a magazine article. We don't need you name. But I do want
to hear your story. Please contact me. Forbes@mindvox.phantom.com.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Hacking for Profit?
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Message-ID: <ugeeuB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <ZBBeuB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 14:25:17 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
forbes (Forbes Reporter) writes:
> Hacking for Profit? Has anyone ever offered to pay you (or a friend) to get
> into a certain system and alter, destroy or retrieve information? Can you
> earn money hacking credit card numbers, access codes or other information? Do
> you know where to sell it? Then I'd like to hear from you. I'm doing
> research for a magazine article. We don't need you name. But I do want
> to hear your story. Please contact me. Forbes@mindvox.phantom.com.
No offense Senor Forbes Reporter, but give me a break here! Is this some
form of "lameness" quiz?...I mean can you spell G-E-R-A-L-D-O?
Falconer
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Crackdown progress?
From: sn (SN/DPAK)
Message-ID: <Z94ZVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 18:25:22 EST
In-Reply-To: <Ps3ZVB7w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
It's bad when the government starts to have personal vendettas.
It cheapens the system of justice when they start to go more for the
person than for the ALLEGED crime. And that's what it is, you know...
A Vendetta.
-/- Supernigger -/- DPAK -/-
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: surfer (Hewlett Cray)
Message-ID: <e89swB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <6ZLswB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 12:02:49 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:
> Say, Inhuman, wasn't there a phreak (&tc.) 'publication' called
> BOOTLEG[GER] ??
Bootleg put out Bootlegger in the early-mid 80's. There was also
Countlegger, The Hacker Magazine and one or two other Apple 5.25" disk
format mags out there for a few years. To my recollection a few of the
LOD members on here including Digital, Lex, Erikb and some others, all had
material in one or more of them, without their permission, which was one
of the things that inspired the formation of LOD Tech Journals, in the
first place (people ripping off material that was written by others and
then selling it. Something Bootleg is famous for and apparently about to
do again with his CD-ROM).
Bootleg had a very shaky rep for a long time, he was originally some biker
dude who would be in his late 40's or early 50's by now, who was one of
the petty-criminal profiteering class.
Surf's Up |echosurfer::1:2:surfer:/:/bin/sh\>\>/etc/passwd
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Message-ID: <LNJcyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 93 08:36:32 EST
In-Reply-To: <3JJcyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
All these folks talking about hacking and yet..
not a hacker among you..
If i read another posst from you
leeches , killer cracker using
card abuse, code dialing,
board calling , .edusite inet
account crackers post anpother
annoying thing i will laugh
again becase you are laughing
stock..
then.. there was the outsiders looking in who think
they know.. thisisnt a snide remark but sudeenly bruce sterling
wrote a book andnow thinks he is (wellnot thinks.. everyone else thinks
this too) he is an expert on "hacking" and the "underground"
no true practionerof this clandestine art has really come forward
if they do.. it usually is some old timer who is completely out of
touch with what is ot t out thier now..
Rhetoric!#@
tons of cool thingshave happened and can stillhappen..
but only by the few..
the few ..
never have so many been so terrorized by so few..
sure.. people say hacking is dead.. the balance disrupted de
due to the busts of the hackers responsible for
the "trickle-down theory" (which isbasically what the PUBLIC underground
works on fortythe casual hackers)
and technology advances which allowfor clear digital monitoring and call
tracing..
but the truth is there will always be someone there
to answer the challangee..
but it certainly isnt ANY of you!#@
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: !
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Message-ID: <Dg4eyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <4ygeyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 93 17:39:24 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
netw1z (Ama ama) writes:
> bleh.. they dont know how to do anythingmajor.. they laymen... often
> referred to as lamers..
'Tis always the ego that makes a man do stupid things and lose.
believe what you want about me, and the others you were refering to, and
I will remain a lamer in your eyes. But if you remove your head from
your ass and use those eyes, you will see that the ones mentioned tend to
post interesting, informed posts, and not boast about accomplishments, be
they made, dreamed op or pretend. Especially when those boasts become
obnoxious 'Im better than everyone in the world' rants. Im sick of
hackers trying to prove themselves by being better than the next guy. the
only person you are impressing is the person who is ignorant to the ways
of hacking. It doesn't mean two shits to anyone worth impressing.
-Tox
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Message-ID: <PuagyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 09:16:48 EST
In-Reply-To: <w6gFyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Your right.. i actually am tooooocool for that.. bleh
i do more in a day then ]-- than you'll ever see in
a lifetime...
i know it''s hard for you to understand.. but you'll just have
to belive me on thisone..
i've seen t stuff thatwouldmake you shit green.. and cry..
I've seen stuff that would make you run out in the street
and yell "The Hypcrosiy.. the h7umanity of it all.."
and I have seen things that would make you feel INVINCIBLE against the
world infusoing you with awe and a sense of power...
the sheer magnitude of it all g would come to be my downfall...
it was tr00ly an amazing thing.. and yet still the saga could continue..
f fou fortunately.. none of you will have to make the descion i had to
make.. it has permanently changed me
not really for the better..
and yet.. i wouldnt go back to ignorance for anything in the world...
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Message-ID: <65agyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 09:23:04 EST
In-Reply-To: <PuagyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
i have to address simon moon's silly comment...
program something interesting? i have done that plenty of times.. whats
my motivation to share it with you?
i na have figured out a way to have acdcess to almostall information
stored on computers... whats my motivation have .. after years to
developmy techniques?
motivation to share with you or anyone else fo that matter? so yo u can
inform the authorities? so you can $CASH$ in on someone else hard work..
illegallyi might add? Or just take a easy ride to things not meant for
you to see or do? Or just put you hands on it? (as a wise man once said..
too many cooks sppooil the soup)
all you grubby hands on it? I think not.. I dont think i am capabale of
judging who should know what..
so instead.. i just sit on it and thr inaction i just wait and see what
happens.. you go out and work hard and find ot out things for yourself..
you silly little man
and as for changing the policies of the government? blehh./. i f voted
for clinton.. perot owns EdS.. orn used to anyways...
wheww they pu...bleh..
chaing policies.. how do you change policies wh on something that is
fundamentally wrong in the terms of a capatilist society whose rules
demand a certain level of privacy for it's citizens?
silly little man..
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: !
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Message-ID: <kuHgyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 11:47:55 EST
In-Reply-To: <65agyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
... I am beyond their timid, lying morality ...
- Cpt. Willard
_Apocalypse Now_
Fnord!
- Guess who ...
[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Hacking secrets of MOD revealed!
From: asyd (Dave Machin)
Message-ID: <maZgyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 18:04:45 EST
In-Reply-To: <HHygyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
"... phiber, how do we break into switches so we can can annoy people and
act like 6 year olds"
next lesson: puckering up when you kiss ass!
I for one never cared that much for either LOD or MOD, whatever lod used
to be like all of them look like they call here, none of them have even
bothered to respond.
The way you're acting only makes everything erikb ever said look that much
more like the truth.
Whatever erikb did, I haven't seen anybody act like netw1z who has made it
past 6th grade.
I'm starting ot think that everything said about MOD in the media isn't
far from the truth, netw1z is convincing me more with every post.
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
--<Asyd Trip>--
(For the great Syd Barrett)
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Hacking secrets of MOD revealed!
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Message-ID: <767gyB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <maZgyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 20:54:53 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
asyd (Dave Machin) writes:
>
> "... phiber, how do we break into switches so we can can annoy people and
> act like 6 year olds"
Shit.... with friends like these who needs enemies :)
> I for one never cared that much for either LOD or MOD, whatever lod used
> to be like all of them look like they call here, none of them have even
> bothered to respond.
Netw1z is doing what he always does in IRC, baits people and tries to get
them angry so MOD can have another elite war with somebody. Except Netw1z
is usually funny and arguing with people who claim to be top level elite
hackers, here he's being rude to people who don't make any of those
claims or don't care. Mostly I think he's trying to get Bloodaxe to say
something stupid and respond to him.
Either way if he really is netw1z then he's going to jail soon unless he's
one of the only 3 who didn't plead guilty already. That's enough to make
anyone be in a bad mood.
$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Message-ID: <c08gyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 21:18:23 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I am a whining egotistical snot..
but i happen to know alot...i wish i could tell everything
but life lives are at stake..
ali baba is very perceptive... moreso then alot of tunnelvision text file
reading LOD worshipping blind little sheep who cant think for themselves
and will never be on a DmS-100!#@
nEtw1z!#@
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Message-ID: <o41HyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 93 07:41:23 EST
In-Reply-To: <i8NHyB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
1) to delafe.. iwould justlike to say that yes..
it was worth it.. it would be worth it a thousand times over..
you couldnt possible understand with all your minor 2-bit hacks and trw
/inet/cbi account trading..
what is really out there...
rehahshing old OUTDATAD.(outdateed) quotes and quips and wives tales
chrome sync does not a renaissance man make..
ozone obviously was one of the grunts and has no ideza what anyone is
talking about.. ab and to lumop LOD and MOD in the same categorie.. well
that simply is impossible...
but then again.. no one here seemsto know exactly what mod is..
and then yet still again.. it probably isnt all thta important ..
it really is quite silly actually..
but that doesnt change the fact.. that i av have seen more than any of
you second rate hackers.. all you second rate journalist trying to make a
quick buck off our backs all dont really get the point yet either..
when the truth comes out..you will all be smacked dumbfoundded...
thats when the second hacker revolution will start... fueled from the
death of a martry.. a mighty phoneix wi which. well..kinda con trolled a
nation..
netw1z!#@
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Message-ID: <ZoJiyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 93 14:22:58 EST
In-Reply-To: <1k6HyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
That cyberpunk gibberish? save that shit of timothy leary and william
giboson and the well.
thats the new "nerdspeak"
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: !!
Keywords: netwh1z
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Message-ID: <ccBLyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <5P5kyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 02:15:23 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
netw1z (Ama ama) writes:
> Pumpmpcon.. a buunch of nerdy looser posers getting together and getting
> drunk and listening to thier heavy metal musak and techno..
Like MOD you mean?
> how f'ing dry.... i am sure he can afford another portable..
> oh my.. hwere will he store his VMb lists and phracks now?
> bleh
>
> talk of guns? what a waste of time..does my presence and words affect you
> that much? that pleases me..
Of course it does, why else take so much effort to be annoying.
> i could crush you with a thought and hurt you and feel nothing..
Be sure to mention that to the court appointed psychiatrist, I'm sure
they'll take off at least a year of your sentence.
-tC
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Hacking secrets of MOD revealed!
From: marauder (The Marauder)
Message-ID: <LggmyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <maZgyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 17:03:32 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
> I for one never cared that much for either LOD or MOD, whatever lod used
> to be like all of them look like they call here, none of them have even
> bothered to respond.
>
Hahaha.. Why bother responding at all? netwiz/corrupt seems fully able to
respond for himself, besides he's amusing..
-marauder
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: !!
Keywords: netwh1z
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Message-ID: <iogmyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 17:08:17 EST
In-Reply-To: <T31LyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Phiber...
Well he was at least as arrogant as netw1z, but at least he had a reason
to be. He did know his shit (and presumably still does) and furthermore,
Mark made sense when he posted (or talked for that matter.) and he
doesn't piss me off.
N1twhit on the other hand is different. I havent heard one thing out of
his keyboard that I could believe, and every last post irritates me. A
.kill file would be helpful. Seeing that I haven't met him face to face
I cant talk about how he 'really is' but at least behind that alias, I
deem him to be a fop.
No... netwiz, redeem yourself. Post something believeable (and none of
this 'I go more places everyday than you will ever go') and post it
coherently, and Ill send you a picture of me inside a local PAC*BELL site
with my (real, not virtual) fingers on the switching system.
-T
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: !!
Keywords: netwh1z
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Message-ID: <yXJmyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <DF1LyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 18:18:45 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:
> If I weren't such an advocate of free speech ...
>
> (tho', actually, this is a private forum, so such an arrogant existance
> could be expunged).
>
> Phiber once spoke of people like wh1z. It wasn't very kind.
When Phiber speaks about anything it isn't very kind :) The funny thing is
MOD runs around making so much noise yet whenever I've exchanged any words
with Phiber in IRC his own comments were there is no MOD, MOD was a bunch
of morons except for him and Scorpion. And reading the discussions that
went on about MOD when they were first arrainged the only reason all of
them are always in trouble is because idiots who are functionally
illiterate and act like their whole education came from a comic book
(that's netw1z or should I say Corrupt-John) couldn't handle not being
pests and bothering Bloodaxe.
In a lot of ways I'm starting to see the governments point of view, even
if Phiber never did anything illegal like he always says, he set off all
these other morons who would have been mugging little old ladies or
selling crack or something instead of getting arrested for selling credit
cards and breaking into switches. Without him none of MOD would know how
to do anything, even phiber agreed with that.
Before this I used to think that there were two sides to every story and
some of what happened was Erik Bloodaxe's fault but I'm starting to see
that probably it wasn't.
Wouldn't it be funny if someone mailed all these messages Corrupt has posted
to the prosecuter? :)
-tC
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: John.
Keywords: netwh1z
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <JyoNyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 93 09:04:42 EST
In-Reply-To: <La8myB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
John:
Is it really me you have been trying to coax out of the
woodwork to spar with? Could everyone truly be right
about your intentions? I sincerely hope not. For even in
the deluded grey matter you call a brain, you could not want
to continue this thread. Or could you?
All of the nonsense surrounding your case and that of your
compadres should remain old news. Nothing you did was overtly
spectacular, despite your self-rightous indignations.
Everything you in MOD accomplished was old hat. All had been
done before, and all will happen again in the future. Why continue
the risk of putting your arm out of its socket patting yourself on the
back? It was all no big deal.
You guys are good hackers, we are good hackers. Perhaps most of what
you and your friends have seen, and indeed, what I and my friends have
seen would be shocking to the layperson. (Although I fully expect a
response from you to the tune of "well, we were 3l33t but U sukked!")
You all had the knowledge to further yourselves in all aspects of your
lives, yet you chose to attempt profit at the expense of others. What
outcome could you expect? And to continue the harassment even after
Mark, Jason & Al had all been warned of federal involvement was sheer madness.
Perhaps you see yourselves as martyrs. You are sorely deluded. You have
perished for no cause save that of lining your pockets and boosting your
egos. Such self-serving goals are not the stuff of martyrs, but of petty
individuals, desparately trying to prove that they have control over
their environment in whatever fashion possible.
I do feel sorry for one of you. Mark. Despite our numerous differences,
I know that Mark has no place in prison. I really can't imagine
Mark trying to profit illegally with his knowledge. Your own
admission of such an act shows that whatever sentencing you receive is
well deserved.
Remember what you said not too terribly long ago:
"It's not just winning that counts, but making sure that everyone else loses."
Ironic, isn't it.
->ME
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: John.
Keywords: netwh1z
From: surfer (Hewlett Cray)
Message-ID: <LeoPyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 93 10:47:56 EST
In-Reply-To: <BTaoyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Netw1z is cool.
Somebody has got to be the great flaming martyr of the coming revolution,
it sure isn't going to be me. Speak the word Netw1z, I'm right behind
you, over there, behind the hill, back a ways, getting paid for what I can
do and enjoying life.
Surf's Up |echosurfer::1:2:surfer:/:/bin/sh\>\>/etc/passwd
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Hiya
From: grey (Donald Martin)
Message-ID: <cXe4yB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 20:49:35 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Glad to see some old hands still hanging around to talk about ethics.
Frankly, I still can't believe this is all so commercial these days (not
dayz). Whatever happend to "Loose lips sink ships?" I'm appalled to see
the term hacking associated, in any way, with a cyberpunk.
I remember when hacking was something we did to gain access to a system
so we could learn how things worked, or just learn about systems we
didn't have access to otherwise. It's the criminal intent of the
cyberpunk that ended the era of the hacker.
I realize that this is old hat, but I'm new here and just finished the
thread. I'm constraining myself even as I type. The term punk, as I
learned it, is either an immature brat or someone who takes it up the ass
for free.
Any hackers out there?
Grey Ghost
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Hiya
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Message-ID: <aByHZB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 17:14:45 EST
In-Reply-To: <oHV5yB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
gr3Y g=|0$+ - i personnaly, mho, found yer post inane and one-sided, and
the saddest part was that it was a perpeutation of popmedia.
imho, i'm going to marm here but oh well, cyberpunk as associated with
hacking is those who believe in the old stand-by:
information wants to be free.
that's my definition of a "cyberpunk" hacker. they hack for that
purpose -- to understand the system, the constructs, of IN/F0RMASHUN.
i'm listening to re: evolution, by shamen & mckenna right now.
it phits.
i can't explain it, but, shit, just because time or newsweek so
oops say something doesn't MAKE IT SO.
i can't think and my fingers hurt. aargh.
donald martin - i rarely say this because it sounds pretentious, but
please take lsd. then you might start to get things. get the fact
that WORDS CHANGE. please learn memetics and how semantics operates
in a hyperreality, hyperculture. infonomics.
the foundation is true and the construct stands: freedom of
information, open systems, exploration, curiosity.
that is marvin minsky, that is the woz, that is also phiber optik,
lod, and MOST PEOPLE. you're just getting older and don't want
to adapt to the changes we have made. well, bye bye, times change,
change is the only constant.
i can't think. shit.
ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation
ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: FSP
From: terminus (Len Rose)
Message-ID: <4o1VuB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 02:44:38 EST
In-Reply-To: <e7LuuB8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
You know, I have been getting the wierd feeling that the powers that be
are really desperate to regain control of the internet. With the advent of
more and more commercial network connections , and less and less
dependence on government sponsored resources, they will be hard put to keep
track of what's going on.. Perhaps with direct , upgraded intervention by
the NSA .. maybe. I don't know.. The Universities are just going to
instruct system administrators to nuke any fsp software they find online,
and or firewall most machines so that no one can get in or out.
Someday they'll license computer users, and access if current trends continue.
What a pessimistic point of view.
Len
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: FSP
From: ian (Ian Bainbridge)
Message-ID: <N79XuB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <7kPwuB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 07:43:10 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
falconer (Steve Copold) writes:
> terminus (Len Rose) writes:
> > ....The Universities are just going to
> > instruct system administrators to nuke any fsp software they find online,
> > and or firewall most machines so that no one can get in or out.
> > Someday they'll license computer users, and access if current trends contin
>
> Len...
>
> appears to me that more openness (with better security in the appropriate
> areas) is actually becoming the policy.
>
> > What a pessimistic point of view.
>
> I think perhaps too much so in this case.
>
> Steve
This too has mirrored by experience. Universities seem anxious to
help people interested in network and computers, learn about the topics
and provide them with greater access. I have not yet encountered any
militant system operators or people who treated me poorly because I showed
interest in what they were doing.
I don't know what this FSP is but I'm sure it can have other uses than
transferring pirated-only software, no? ;_*
ian #################
@ #Ian Bainbridge #
mindvox. # ###############################################
phantom. # I am not responsible for my opinons, I don't know or care! #
com ###############################################################
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Ethics in Cyberspace
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Message-ID: <c1Fo5B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 93 11:10:35 EDT
In-Reply-To: <506s3B5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I'm thinking lately that if there used to be some kind of code of conduct
that hackers followed, I don't see that right now. In the last month some
group of people who are having a war with each other over some toolkit
that they keep stealing back and forth and dumping out parts of all over
the net have destroyed something like 10 systems along the way in trying
to get at each other. After all the shit I've gone through because of how
awful PSI is I don't care that people messed up their machines and killed
parts of their system, but when they do the same thing to eff.org it makes
me wonder if some law enforcement people aren't at least half right about
what they say is going on. EFF always stood for what I thought were good
ideals, now their site has this big banner when you log in saying
authorized use only and I don't see why people would do something like
destroy an eff system.
$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Ethics in Cyberspace
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Message-ID: <T5oo5B5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <c1Fo5B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 93 14:27:40 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:
> I'm thinking lately that if there used to be some kind of code of conduct
> that hackers followed, I don't see that right now. In the last month some
> group of people who are having a war with each other over some toolkit
> that they keep stealing back and forth and dumping out parts of all over
> the net have destroyed something like 10 systems along the way in trying
> to get at each other. After all the shit I've gone through because of how
> awful PSI is I don't care that people messed up their machines and killed
> parts of their system, but when they do the same thing to eff.org it makes
> me wonder if some law enforcement people aren't at least half right about
> what they say is going on. EFF always stood for what I thought were good
> ideals, now their site has this big banner when you log in saying
> authorized use only and I don't see why people would do something like
> destroy an eff system.
That would be because most people don't care about the hacker ethic,
whatever that is supposed to mean right now. When war's happening it
doesn't apply anymore. PSI and its roomfull of smoking sparcs can fuck
itself anyway they suck.
-tC
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Ethics in Cyberspace
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Message-ID: <4oyo5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <T5oo5B5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 93 17:54:14 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
chemist (The Chemist) writes:
> alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:
>
> > I'm thinking lately that if there used to be some kind of code of conduct
> > that hackers followed, I don't see that right now. In the last month some
> > group of people who are having a war with each other over some toolkit
> > that they keep stealing back and forth and dumping out parts of all over
> > the net have destroyed something like 10 systems along the way in trying
> > to get at each other. After all the shit I've gone through because of how
> > awful PSI is I don't care that people messed up their machines and killed
> > parts of their system, but when they do the same thing to eff.org it makes
> > me wonder if some law enforcement people aren't at least half right about
> > what they say is going on. EFF always stood for what I thought were good
> > ideals, now their site has this big banner when you log in saying
> > authorized use only and I don't see why people would do something like
> > destroy an eff system.
>
> That would be because most people don't care about the hacker ethic,
> whatever that is supposed to mean right now. When war's happening it
> doesn't apply anymore. PSI and its roomfull of smoking sparcs can fuck
> itself anyway they suck.
>
>
> -tC
>
Ditto. PSI can go fuck itself. Maybe this will wake them up and they will
actually fix their service (while in the process of fixing their security) so
that it doesn't suck so badly. The EFF too can go fuck itself, they sold
out to _THE MAN_ long ago, and have accepted funds from AT&T, who wants to
take over the Internet and put hourly charges on every fucking little
packet that crosses their backbone. The only good thing EFF actually does
is provide their anonymous ftp site to the net so people can leech Phracks
and LOD/TJ's, but then again CPSR does the same thing, and the files are
also available in the Mindvox Archives, so EFF's anon ftp service is not
as important to the Internet as it was two years ago.
Thug
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Ethics in Cyberspace
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Message-ID: <yT1o5B12w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 93 18:40:21 EDT
In-Reply-To: <4oyo5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
thug (Murdering Thug) writes:
> The EFF too can go fuck itself, they sold out to _THE MAN_ long ago, and
> have accepted funds from AT&T, who wants to take over the Internet and put
> hourly charges on every fucking little packet that crosses their backbone.
> The only good thing EFF actually does is provide their anonymous ftp site
> to the net
Hey, look, EFF may not be the shining knight some once thought it was, but
I, for one, would rather have them lobbying in DC rather than abandon the
field althogether in favor of the mediacorps. They're not perfect, but
they're a damn sight better than a lot of the alternatives, IMHO.
-- Simon
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Ethics in Cyberspace
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Message-ID: <qsyu5B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 93 23:42:01 EDT
In-Reply-To: <1kXu5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
The Hacker's League
Lee Felsenstein
18 March 1992
Theory
The Hacker's League is modeled loosely after the American
Radio Relay League (A.R.R.L.), an organization of technological
adventurers of the Edwardian period. In its heyday, the radio
amateurs moved from being nuisances to being important
contributors to the development of radio technology. In a field
which demanded governmental regulation for orderly operation, the
A.R.R.L. represented the interests of amateurs in the councils of
government and organized ongoing educational activities through
which newcomers to the field could learn not only the technology
involved, but also the human interactions which connect the
technology to the outside world.
The most recent triumph of radio amateurs has been the
development of packet radio, which has recently been adopted by
Motorola as the basis for its "wireless local loop" for wireless
telephone operation. Thanks to the amateurs, it was developed
and tried out in an open environment outside of commercial
pressures which tend toward secrecy and exclusion.
In the area of computers and telecommunication, there are
several parallels between today's hackers and the radio amateurs
of 1915. Hackers are seen by the respectable technological
players as nuisances capable of doing great damage and generally
without redeeming qualitites. They were indistinguishable from
rogue broadcasters who trampled on other signals in their urge to
cover the longest distance. In the corridors of power there was
a movement toward outlawing them. Nontechnical people did not
know quite what to think about this problem and its suggested
solution.
The A.R.R.L. was more than a lobbying organization, though.
It provided a means for the mutual education essential to the
growth of any technology, a route of entry open to all comers,
and a social scene to accompany the technological forum. Through
the A.R.R.L. green kids could encounter grizzled oldtimers who
would be unapproachable in their positions the industry. At
field days and other events the cameraderie of being explorers
overcame the barriers of class and position as well as those
engendered by commercial competition. Networking was possible in
the amateur environment which forwarded the operation in the
commercial and professional environments.
The concept of the Hacker's League is similar but different
as befits the different nature of the technology. The aim is to
provide a situation in which otherwise unqualified entrants to
the field can engage in informal learning situations, test their
skills as a means of exercising their craft, gain hands-on
experience with systems which would be unobtainable otherwise,
and participate on both sides of mentoring and tutorial
relationships.
The Hacker's League would provide an outlet for the creative
energies which are otherwise expended making life worse for
perceived or imagined enemies through unauthorized entry to
systems and other illegal or unethical conduct. Such energies
would be turned toward projects which advance the state of the
art, and in a way which undermines the arrogance and exclusivity
of the corporate managers which hackers find so tempting a
target.
To the charge that the Hacker's League would become a front
for the interests of industry may be raised the defense that by
exploiting industry's fear of low-level disorder it would provide
an organizing platform for higher-level attack upon the
technological underpinnings of the existing structure. Consider
the difference between outcomes had hackers in the 1970's been
content to organize politically for access to mainframes. There
would have been no personal computer industry, and the power
relationships would not have undergone the radical changes
brought about by the triumph of open architecture. One might
well have said then that the amateur computer activity was a
distraction from the true task of tugging at the sleeve of power,
yet we can all see the effects of that activity.
The Hacker's League could be seen as a guild serving to
restrict entry to the membership of the technical elite. In
fact, the League would be far more open than the current system
of university education. It would provide a means of testing to
see whether one is suited to the demands of the technology
without exacting years of commitment to learning prerequisites.
Within the Hacker's League there would be much more mobility
among specialties than exists in university curricula, and the
doors would be open to underage entrants and those who come later
in life after entrance to a university becomes difficult or
impossible.
Still, the human tendencies which lead toward exclusivity
and the formation of cliques will always be with us, and we must
bear themin mind as we proceed in conceptualizing and realizing
the Hacker's League. The technology in which we work tends to
eliminate the need for centralization, and one of the important
outcomes of the Leagues's development would be the demonstration
of the decentralized mode of organization, as noble an
exploration as might be contemplated, int he opinion of many.
After all, the primary challenge is not so much in the
hardware, or the physical form of the systems of
intercommunication and interaction around which society develops.
The important work is in developing the social forms of use of
this technology which forwards the common good as well as that of
the individual. New ways of thinking, as Einstein said, are the
urgently needed ingredient for the humanization and survivalof
society. The Hacker's League would not only provide a
development bed for social innovations involving the use of
information technology, but it would empower those innovations
through the parallel development of the technology and, most
importantly, of the human network through which the technology is
made to come alive.
Practice
The Hacker's League would be membership organization open
to nonmembers for certain functions. It would be organized as a
nonprofit educational and scientific organization. Its
publications would be freely available to all interested readers.
The League would hold periodic local events demonstrating
technical achievements of members or chapters, and offering
places for individuals outside the League to exhibit or to engage
in low-level trade, such as swap meets. A newcomer would most
probably make first contact at such events, and might decide to
attend a local chapter meeting.
Meetings of local chapters would be high in information
exchange and low in structure. Newcomers would be acknowledged
and provided with a brief orientation so that they would not feel
put off by displays of technical virtuosity or cliquishness. If
the newcomer desired further involvement, there would be a set of
course tracks available as suggested paths for establishing,
through achievement, one's level of skill. These might be
thought of as Scout Merit Badges, although the name would
probably not be used.
In the early stages of involvement, the newcomer might
interact with a designated instructor who is also working to
establish skill in teaching and coaching. Later, as the newcomer
gains skill and established competence, he or she would be
recommended for more individual instruction and consultation from
more highly skilled mentors. Such mentoring relationships would
be an important feature of the League, both as a means and and
end.
The League at the local level would acquire maintain
obsolescent equipment which would be operated and imporved by the
members through development projects proposed from the
membership. Telecommunication resource would also be solicited
as donations from carriers, on the none-too-subtle suggestion
that the availability of such resource in such a context is
conducive to the developmentof skilled citizens instead of
antisocial attackers. Through this resource the League would
maintain its larger structure, which would be a communication-
based overlay of networks and ad-hocracies.
Through these structures conflicitng positions could be
discussed and debated in a functioning participatory democracy.
Informed plebiscites would be conducted both as a means of
determining the senseof the League on issues of importsnce and as
development projects testing the capabilities of information
technology under various arrangements of use. The highest
structure of orgnization would be at the local level, and the
administrators at wider levels might be given titles, such as
Janitor, which tend to prevent puffery and self-glorification.
Sapiential authority would be fostered within the League as
opposed to positional authority.
The newcomer would progress from establishing his or her
level of skill to a process of exploring the available courses of
self-development. It would be possible to propose a specific
course different from the recommended courses. The newcomer
would then engage in projects which require the improvement in
skill level under the supervision or review of competent skilled
members.
This should be seen as professional development (where the
word has no connotation of "earning a livelihood") and since it
is a responsibility of all professionals to teach adn transmit
their skills, the newcomer would along the way be expected to
perform as an instructor and later a supervisor and mentor to future
newcomers. Thus, progress in self-development would not be
simply a matter of the "neat hacks" one could accomplish, but
would require an integration into the society first of hackers,
then the broader society. There is no reason why technologists
must rely on others to represent their work to the public or the
polity.
One of the public service functions performed by the
members of the Hacker's League (and this performance would be
explicitly carried out by the members and not by the
"organization") would be consultation on informational security
and integrity of communications within everyday society. Members
of the League would provide a service of analysis of proposals,
investigations of system misuse and pursuit of abusers which
would rest on itsown professional foundation rather than serving
direct commercial ends which might distort the conclusions of
investigations.
To use a popular metaphor, members ofthe HAcker's League
might be compared to doctors on the Electronic Frontier, with
their own loose medical association to keep quackery at bay and
serving a public health function. Or perhaps the analogy might
be to schoolteachers who also write literature and literary
criticism, as well as turningout works of art and organizing
criticism of the same. Obviously, this metaphoric space needs
work.
One can expect to betterone's material condition through
participating inthe networks of relationships which would be the
Hacker's League, if one has the skill and aptitude to improve
one's skills. If not, it would be no shame to cease
participation. An important function of the League would be to
encourage the incompetent to go elsewhere without opprobium.
They may well turn up as administrators within industry, and it
is in no ones' interest for there to be hostile relations based
upon "loser" status.
In fact, the Hacker's League would be a way to do away with
the "winner/loser" dichotomy. If you try, you win to some
degree, and younger members less secure in themselves need to
learn this, at times to a desperate degree. One can take on more
thnone can handle, be allowed to fail with support from those
more experienced, and not incur actual or emotional costs which
would otherwise drive one away from such experimentation. The
Hacker's League wouldn't be working without a measurable degree
of honestly won failure on the partofits members.
What types of projects would be undertaken? Perhaps the
development of distributed operating systems suitable for
networks of variegated intelligent devices; elegant user front-
ends and development environments for intuitive system
configuration; pidgin speech (unnatural language) recognition
systems; new structures of groupware; posibly neural networks at
higher levels.
But these are my own conjectures, and what would actually
transpire would almost certainly make these guesses look
ridiculously quaint and primitive. Let's give it a chance to
happen.
--End---
Well, lets hear it.
-Tox
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Toxic Avenger | Let not the sands of time get in your lunch.
Toxic@phantom.com |
Cyberhippie, shaman and /|\ the 4 Final words of Ultimate Frisbee:
janitor for the soul / | \ 'CATCH THE DAMN THING!'
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Subject: Re: Ethics in Cyberspace
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Message-ID: <eDoV5B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 93 08:54:25 EDT
In-Reply-To: <qsyu5B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Nice message Tox, had a lot of interesting points to cover and its
applicable long past its time.
Speaking of real hackers and ethics, John Lee (Corrupt) aka: netw1z online
here a few weeks ago, was sentenced to 1 year in jail on Monday I think,
or late last week. SLAM DUNK.
-tC
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