textfiles/bbs/KEELYNET/UNCLASS/hassle.asc

______________________________________________________________________________
|  File Name      : HASSLE.ASC       |  Online Date     :  06/10/95          |
|  Contributed by : InterNet         |  Dir Category    :  UNCLASS           |
|  From           : KeelyNet BBS     |  DataLine        :  (214) 324-3501    |
|        A FREE Alternative Sciences BBS sponsored by Vanguard Sciences      |
|           KeelyNet * PO BOX 870716 * Mesquite, Texas * USA * 75187         |
|     Voice/FAX  :  (214) 324-8741      InterNet -  keelynet@ix.netcom.com   |
|                WWW Mirror -  http://www.eskimo.com/~billb                  |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
The following is to let my fellow KeelyNetters know what is going on with
regard to 'space' on the InterNet.  KeelyNet files were freely used until I
got my InterNet account, surveyed what was where and sent a letter of
correction to the operators.  That letter included the offer to sell disks of
the database (online at KeelyNet since 1992 at the request of KeelyNet users)
Soon after, these messages appeared and I though you folks needed to know what
goes on there.
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From: keelynet@ix.netcom.com (Jerry Decker)
Subject: Re: KeelyNet
To:  Rene Mueller <kiwi@iis.ee.ethz.ch>
Cc:  bgarth@protree.com
You wrote:
>
> (from Bob Garth of Protree to Rene Mueller of Spirit)
>
> >Rene,
> >
> >I am not "for profet" either, leastwise, I am far from making
   one.  What makes KeelyNet different than I?  And if exposure here,
   increases donations
> >or sales, then I feel it is only fair that they at least cover thier
   share of the expense of giving them this additional exposure.
> >
> >   As for it being your fault, no, you said they told you to, and
   you did it.  So I don't see how it is your fault.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Bob
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>  (Rene responding to Bob)
>
>I see, but let me ask you again, in case I remove the info about the selling
>of disks, will you consider it as non-commercial then again or not?
>
>Well, I may have to ask Jerry, how he thinks about that all. Ok, Bob?
>   ,
>Rene
>
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 (from Jerry to both Rene and Bob once I realized there was 'suddenly a
problem')

Hi Rene & Bob!

I was not aware this was causing some kind of problem.  KeelyNet is a totally
free BBS and was never intended to be any kind of income producing activity.
Some of our users asked if they could purchase a disk set rather than pay 'Ma
Bell', which we discussed and finally agreed to do.  That was when the files
were only about 8MB.  Now they have grown to about 19MB.  I estimate we get
requests for disks on the order of 2 per month.  That is reasonable and does
not take up all that much time to do.

Additionally, I send out the same amount FREE to people who want to set up
mirror sites on their local BBS and particularly in other countries.  The
point being of course, to get people involved in looking into some of the
claims of free energy, anti-grav and alternative health techniques....that is
all that matters, from the beginning to now.

Bill Beaty has been a KeelyNet user for several years now and was the first
AND ONLY person related to the InterNet who ever asked about listing KeelyNet
files there.  Since we have always actively promoted the free exchange of
information, he or anyone else could list the files as they saw fit.

It somewhat amazed me to see 3 mirrors, (eskimo, spirit and elektromagnum)
with various KeelyNet files when I finally got my own InterNet account.  I
have no idea how the WWW system works, if it is paid for, by whom,
etc....since my only goal is to gather, correlate and distribute information.

The InterNet is simply another way to expand our contacts.  We have been
online continously for almost 6 years now and have been up to 2500 users, now
down to 2000 through purgings......most of our people are research oriented or
of an engineering or technical bent, BY DESIGN....in other words, KeelyNet has
never advertised nor has it been intentionally listed on BBS lists that
circulate the various BBSs.

Without these two postings from Rene, I would not have been aware of any kind
of problem.  So, this is a surprise to me.  You are free to use the files or
not, and if you choose to use them, you don't have to post the information
about the disks being available.  It takes my time to run them off and so if
there ever was any kind of deluge or orders, I would be lost as that is NOT
what I am here for.  I do quite well in my 'real' world profession and sponsor
the KeelyNet from my own pocket in the interest of sharing information.

As Rene pointed out, I being owner and operator of KeelyNet, never asked
anyone to post our files, not on InterNet or any other BBSs.  Instead, some
people can see how the files could be of use of interest to their own group
and so wanted them available for that purpose.  This is excellent, because it
saves so many people from having to call Dallas when they could simply call a
local BBS (or InterNet) to get the files.  Either way, it does not matter to
me, bottomline, the files WILL get out and be added to......

In fact, I just sent out a free disk set to a fellow who is implementing them
on FIDONET, what he says will eventually impact 50,000 BBSs
worldwide....(thats the number he gave).....I don't understand Fidonet or how
it works, nor do I care to get into the nitty gritty, but he was fascinated
with the material and felt it could evoke some enthusiasm in many people,
especially the younger set, into looking into science from a different
perspective.

So, I wish to thank both of you for your efforts, as you can see, I am being
as straightforward and honest about this as I can.  Whatever you choose to do
with regard to leaving the files on or removing them is up to you.  Good luck
with your InterNet efforts, I have seen the quality of your work and you both
obviously know what is going on.  If I can be of any help, just pop me a
message, this is all still new to me and I don't have a lot of time for it
because of my primary interests, but if I can be of assistance, just
hollar...................

>>>  Jerry W. Decker/Sysop/KeelyNet   |  'Escape to a Higher Order'
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From: keelynet@ix.netcom.com (Jerry Decker)
Subject: Re: protree and KeelyNet
To:  Rene Mueller <kiwi@iis.ee.ethz.ch>
Cc:  bgarth@protree.com
You wrote:
>
>  (from Rene to Jerry)
>
>Jerry, hope you could follow the talking I had with Bob, owner of protree.
>So far, in case someone ask for money for any service, the site is
>considered as commercial ... I didn't perceived that way, as I saw you
>of KeelyNet already offered everything for free, and include the passage
>that the entire data is available on disk too, might be helpful for people.
>I even removed mentioning the price (as you may saw), but Bob felt upset,
>and misused somehow.
>
>I see it as my fault not being aware enough when I included the sentence
>of selling the disks. Sorry. Now, as said before, I don't like to pull you
>into a monthly fee for a site you don't requested, but I opened/maintained
>as service for KeelyNet. I can offer you a free site at zeta.cs.adfa.oz.au,
>where I have my Australian Mirror of Spirit-WWW. Bob maybe will provide
>a redirection of all requests to the new site, means, people will still
>able to access KeelyNet at protree, but get redirected automatically to
>the new-site.
>
>In case you like to keep the site on protree, I have calculated aprx.  $45-50
>per month, which is cheap so far compared to other sites. What I can say,
>at zeta.cs.adfa.oz.au I maintain it only. In case you would consider to have
>it on protree.com, you might take-over the KeelyNet by yourself, and continue
>to maintain, it would be yours.
>
>I don't feel very comfortable about the situation, sorry for that, Jerry.
>So let me know what you think, remaining on protree with the possibility
>to describe the disks and so ($45-50/mo), or moving to australian-site for
>free, but no direct maintain access (as before on protree).
>
>Please let me know what you think ... again, sorry for the circumstances.
>
>Peace,
>   ,
>Rene
>
>
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  (from Jerry to Rene and Bob)

Hi Rene and Bob!

I responded before reading all the messages that Rene so kindly reposted to
me.

Sorry to hear this has caused so much antipathy.  As I mentioned before, I am
new to the InterNet and only when I got on, did I become aware that there was
MORE THAN ONE 'mirror'....since the only person who actually contacts KeelyNet
DIRECT in Dallas is Bill Beaty, he is the ONLY one who I thought was using the
files, so it came as quite a surprise to see it listed more than once.  That
is the sole reason I have never contacted either of you before, I 'wasn't
here' and you took it on yourselves to use the files without my even being
aware of it, again, I have no problems with that, after all, they are INTENDED
to be freely shared.

Once I had an opportunity to check out the other sites, I immediately posted
responses to Bill, Rene and Bob thanking you all for your efforts.  Of course,
I know Bill because he is one of us and had requested my permission to list
the files.  Now, please don't misunderstand me, because I don't know how web
pages and all that stuff works, but you make money from your web page?  Howso,
because I don't really see anything that involves the sale of anything?

Either way, it matters not to me, I never requested the Keelynet files be
listed, though you are free to do so if you wish.  The files have always been
free through the BBS, there is no subscription fee, etc...and have been
offered as disksets for several years now (since 1992) ONLY after some of our
users requested that this be done.  As I said before, we might get two orders
per month ($50 each), so you can see, I am rapidly approaching financial
security with such volume :)

As to anyone becoming upset, that is unfortunate, because I have never hidden
the fact that the files could be purchased in this fashion.  It involves time,
material and postage which I won't pay for from my own pocket just for the
asking.  However, as in the prior message, I do send out free disksets to
those who want to expand their database and make the files available to their
users.

Is not the idea to attract users to the Web page?  That is one of the reasons
people want the files on their own BBSs, because it gives them a larger amount
of material and increases the number of calls to their board BECAUSE of it.

My sole purpose is to make them available to people on as local a basis a
possible, TO KEEP them from having to pay long distance or buy the disksets.
If I could afford to send out a free set to anyone who I KNEW would post them
on a local board, I would do so.  That is one of the attractions for the
InterNet, because it is global and anyone can access it for a monthly fee, not
just for KeelyNet files but for much other material and services...if our
files happen to be included in the package, so much the better, if not, fine,
KeelyNet will continue to operate locally and fulfill its stated purpose.

I think a major part of the problem here is WHAT we are about.  Bill Beaty is
a researcher and 'into' the science aspects of KeelyNet, where I think you,
Rene and Bob, are not 'one of us', having interests that reside mostly with
InterNet type activities.  KeelyNet never intended to attract those who do not
understand nor participate in our areas of study, that is why we HAVE NEVER
actively advertised, instead relying on word of mouth between fellow
researchers.  I think the inclusion of the files as just a collection of odd
information that could be added to a page to attract new callers is definitely
not what was intended.

In fact, everything was apparently just fine until the SELLFILE issue arose
from my correction post.  Geez, all this for what?  We have always been above
board and straight out with people from day one, so I can't understand much of
this.  Well, either way, KeelyNet lives, so do as you will.  Thanks again for
the concerns and your past efforts, just keep the facts in mind,

  1)  you never contacted KeelyNet or me directly
  2)  you chose to list the files for your own purposes
  3)  you had no 'apparent' problems until I sent the totally honest
      'correction post' and you became 'aware' that we SOLD disksets
      since 1992 as is listed in an upfront continual Bulletin on the
      original Dallas board.
  4)  the hits (calls?) on YOUR page for KeelyNet files bring people to
      you who do not add to the KeelyNet database, information pool, or
      contact list, unless someone chooses to want a set of disks (2 a
      month?)

Sorry to have to make this so blunt, and I don't mean it to sound as bad as it
does, but these are the facts.  I still appreciate your efforts, even though I
am unsure of the direction at this point.  Again, good luck to you both, use
em' or lose em', at your discretion.  That should indicate how much FINANCIAL
value they are to me.  Information, pure and simple.

>>>  Jerry W. Decker/Sysop/KeelyNet   |  'Escape to a Higher Order'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: keelynet@ix.netcom.com (Jerry Decker)
Subject: Flap
To:  billb@eskimo.com

Hi Bill!

Man, what's going on out in InterNet land?  Just got about 4 messages from
Rene at Spirit....apparently she and Bob Garth have been having some kind of
'private' discussion as to charging me for listing KeelyNet files?????  Bob
says he was pissed at me for never saying thank you or how-de-do and that
since we charge for the files, we have to pay some kind of monthly fee as a
'for profit' business.

Geez, who do they think they are??  You are the ONLY one who is 'one of us'
and who has EVER contacted KeelyNet or me direct.  These people use the
KeelyNet files to draw people to their own Web pages for awhile now, without
asking me, without me requesting it, and then come down like I was somehow not
upfront with them.....what dicks???  Though I must say, Rene seems to be the
more logical and rational of the two...this Garth character can just eat it
for all I care.

Just pulls me back to WHY WE DON'T ADVERTISE, preferring any new contacts to
be word of mouth...to many assholes in the world with THEIR OWN AGENDAS,
mostly unstated and usually quite SUSPECT.....

Damn, I am really upset about this.  In fact, I am thinking about telling them
to shove it and you are the OFFICIAL InterNet Keelynet site......all I have
ever wanted to do was share information, PERIOD...it was our users WHO ASKED
(in some cases, BEGGED) that I sell them the files because it would cost so
much to pay the phone company....and always, it has been above board and the
BBS still REMAINS FREES TO ANYONE WHO CALLS.......

Who the hell do these people think they are?  Using someone elses material
solely as a 'honeypot' to draw people to themselves and WITHOUT ever seeking
permission or contact, though KeelyNet is 24/7 available and I have TWO
mailing addresses......no, that is too much to expect, a little decency to ASK
if the files can be USED.....instead just posting them and never saying a word
about it.

Well, I need to walk around in the coolness of my backyard and simmer
down...this really gets my goat.....and just makes me want to kick myself for
ever having anything to do with the InterNet....well, you are doing a great
job, but these PARASITES need to be snuffed....

I sent duplicate messages to them both, as nice and cordial as I could make
it, damn near an hour in writing them and will await the response, and by god,
I expect some humility and not this 'we are doing you a favor'....screw
that....I did not ask them to do anything FOR ME or for Keelynet....if that's
not the kind of response I get, I will send them a formal letter forbidding
them use of the KeelyNet name on their Web page and any KeelyNet documents
without my EXPRESS WRITTEN PERMISSION....let's rock......

Anyway, just thought you might like to know...I should have attached the
messages (at least the snippets Rene sent)...and might do so in another post
just so you can see the tone and attitude....well, I really like Rene, he/she
seems like a sweet, considerate person, but Bob can just step out of my
worldview......

Yep, I know, this is a long letter, but you need as much as I can recount so
you will know what is going on.  In fact, I will generate a file with all this
for the REAL KEELYNET people so they can see some of the net attitudes.....I
have been reading some of the UseNet responses and the flames did not seem to
be as bad, but these kinds of people, I just don't need in my life.....they
will not be able to ignore the consequences of what we are all doing, even
though they can't see it at this point....you are either 'one of the body' or
not......as so many people in our group are aware.....well, thanks for the
ear....I need to do something constructive, happen to have a picture of Bob,
perhaps he needs me to assign him some lil' helpers to mischief his life
up...it would be an excellent lesson, though I don't think he would realize
WHY or WHO was helping him out.....hehehehe....later....>>>  Jerry/KeelyNet
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