textfiles/bbs/KEELYNET/ENERGY/xfmrs.asc

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|  File Name      : XFMRS.ASC        |  Online Date     :  11/22/94         |
|  Contributed by : Bert Pool        |  Dir Category    :  ENERGY           |
|  From           : KeelyNet BBS     |  DataLine        :  (214) 324-3501   |
|           KeelyNet * PO BOX 870716 * Mesquite, Texas * USA * 75187        |
|        A FREE Alternative Sciences BBS sponsored by Vanguard Sciences     |
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            Power Transformers, How to Safely Connect and Use Them
                                 by Bert Pool

Many of the experimenters on KeelyNet do work with Tesla coils, Lakhovsky
MWO's, Rife generators, and some even do experiments with high voltage
capacitive discharge explosion of water.  Jerry Decker of KeelyNet asked me to
write up a paper discussing the methods of connecting and using transformers,
including the larger "pole pig" transformers.  Because these transformers are
dangerous high voltage, high power devices, I agreed that a paper discussing
proper connections and safety needed to be written up.

The purpose of this paper is not to induce you to try any of these things, but
to point out specific dangers that you need to be aware of if you are
contemplating lines of research using big transformers.

                Power transformers can be INCREDIBLY dangerous!
_____________________________________________________________________________

    ***********************************************************************
                              *** Disclaimer ***

    I've tried to put information in here which is factual and of safety
    interest, but I don't guarantee anything!  You are, I assume, an
    intelligent, thinking adult, and your actions are your responsibility, not
    mine.  I assume NO liability.  If you don't know what you are doing, then
    stay away from high voltage equipment.  If you get electrocuted or kill
    somebody, or you burn off a hand, don't come crying to me!  I'm trying to
    warn you with this paper; that this stuff is dangerous if you are not
    careful or if you don't know exactly what you are doing.  It's rather like
    working with explosives or hand guns: if you know what you are doing, the
    danger is minimal.  If you are careless or stupid, then someone, most
    likely yourself, can get badly hurt or killed.
    ***********************************************************************
_____________________________________________________________________________

    I begin this technical paper with a quote:

    ***********************************************************************
    "I'm  more careful when working on big transformers than just about
    anything else I do, because I know that I probably won't survive making
    a mistake." - Quote by me, in one of my more lucid moments.
    ***********************************************************************

If you are a novice, stay away from distribution transformers!

Neon transformers will hurt you - distribution transformers will kill you.
                                Violently.....
_____________________________________________________________________________
Neon Transformers

Using the smaller neon transformers is relatively safe, compared to the large
potential and distribution transformers.  Most neon transformers range in
voltage outputs from 7,000 volts to 15,000 volts.  Output current can range
from about 5 milliamps (.005 amperes) to 60 milliamps (.060 amps), and you can
occasionally find a rare 120 m.a. transformer.  Neon transformers can deliver
a very nasty shock, and can cause painful burns, and under proper
circumstances can even be lethal.
_____________________________________________________________________________
                              **** Warning *****

    A neon transformer's output CAN be lethal if the current path travels
    through the heart, i.e., if you were to touch a transformer's two
    terminals with both hands (or one terminal and ground).  It only takes
    a small current of 20 to 30 milliamps to cause the heart to go into
    ventricular fibrillation - a condition where the heart no longer pumps
    blood rhythmically, but just sits and quivers like a mass of jello.

    Once the heart goes into ventricular fibrillation, a medical defibrillator
    must quickly be applied to the victim's chest to try and re-start the
    heart's natural beats.  De-fib units work by passing a pulse of high
    voltage, high current through the thoratic cavity, causing the heart to
    contract into a hard ball.  If a victim is lucky, his heart may start
    beating again.  Then you worry about whether he will be a vegetable
    because of oxygen deprivation to the brain during the time the paramedics
    were enroute.....  CPR can be a life saver in these situations.  If you
    are going to work with power transformers I HIGHLY suggest you and your
    assistant(s) need some real CPR training.  Contact your local Red Cross
    office for their scheduled classes.

So, rule #1 -  KEEP ONE HAND BEHIND YOUR BACK
               WHEN WORKING ON HIGH VOLTAGE EQUIPMENT.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Sounds dumb, right?  Well, Nikola Tesla himself rigorously followed this rule,
and I learned it years ago in school while working on the high voltage section
of color television receivers (27,000 volts).  You are much more likely to
survive touching a high voltage current with only one hand - the current will
most likely travel down one side of the body and bypass the heart. And, if you
are wearing thick rubber-soled shoes you are even less likly to be injured or
killed!
_____________________________________________________________________________
Neon transformers

Used neon transformers may be found at neon sign shops, salvage yards, etc.
9,000 to 15,000 volt units usually can be had for $30 to $35.  New
transformers start at about $100.  The tar insulation used in neon
transformers carbonizes with age, and old transformers do not hold up as well
as new transformers when connected to Tesla coil circuits.  You may carefully
remove the metal case and tar on old neon transformers, and the exposed
transformers will be much more reliable in Tesla coil circuits.  Be very
careful not to cut or break the very fine wire used in the secondaries if you
disassemble a neon transformer.  This wire can be smaller in diameter than a
human hair.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Connecting neon transformers together

Neon transformers almost always have an input of 115 volts, and output
voltages of several thousand volts.  The case of the transformer is grounded.
What is very important to understand is that the secondary winding is a
center-tapped winding, and the center tap is connected directly to the case
(and laminated iron core) of the transformer.  This means that if you have a
12,000 volt transformer, you have 12,000 volts between the two high voltage
insulators, and you also have 6,000 volts measured from the case to either
high voltage connection!

You can connect neon transformers in parallel, but you CANNOT connect them in
series!
_____________________________________________________________________________

                 **** Very important safety warning!  *******

    Do NOT connect neon transformers in series!  If you try to connect neon
    transformers in series to get a higher combined voltage, you will be
    placing several thousand volts on the cases of the transformers.  The
    high voltage will most likely arc to the 115 volt terminals, causing a
    disastrous short.  You will also create a very, very dangerous safety
    condition with the cases being energized!  Do NOT connect neon
    transformers in series!

    Neon transformers CAN be connected in parallel for more CURRENT.  The
    voltage will remain the same.  If you have two 12,000 volt transformers
    rated at 30 milliamps and parallel them, the current available is now
    60 milliamps.  It is very important to make sure the transformers are
    rated at the same voltage, and preferably the same current.  If you
    connect two neon transformers in parallel, and they have different
    voltage ratings, one or both transformers will almost certainly be
    destroyed (especially if connected to a Tesla coil.  I know, I've tried
    it.)

    You need to know that neon transformers are self-limiting in the amount
    of current they can supply.  You can actually short out the two high
    voltage connections of a neon transformer with a wire and then plug in
    the transformer and nothing violent will happen!  Neon transformers
    have a built-in feature which limits the power available to the
    secondary winding.  Still, it is not a good idea to short out these
    transformers for extended lengths of time.  Some neon transformers can
    have this current limiting feature bypassed to extract more power -
    this is covered in a later section.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Connecting transformers in parallel

How do you connect two neon transformers in parallel for more current?

First, number the 115 volt input connections on each transformer #1, and #2.
Next, number the high voltage output connections #3, and #4 on each
transformer.

Connect #1 to #1, #2 to #2, #3 to #3, and #4 to #4.  Run wires from the two
high voltage terminals (3 & 4) to a spark gap (a spark gap is simply two wires
placed about 1/4 inch apart).  Connect 115 volts to 1 & 2.

A beautiful flame-type arc should immediately jump across the spark gap.  If
this does not happen, then the two transformers have been connected "out of
phase".  Should you do this, simply disconnect power, and swap the wires going
to 1 & 2 on ONE of the transformers (not both!).  Re-connect power, and you
should see the high voltage jump across the spark gap.  You may parallel
additional transformers, connecting them one at a time, and testing to make
sure you get the polarity of 1 & 2 correct each time.  I have connected six
neon transformers in parallel, and a friend of mine once had twelve
transformers paralleled for a really big Tesla coil!
_____________________________________________________________________________
Bypassing current shunts

Some larger neon transformers have special laminations which are located in
the core, between the primary and secondary windings.  These laminations are
at right angles to the core laminations, and these "sideways" laminations may
be driven out of the transformer core with a hammer and a small block of wood.

You will find that the amount of current available to the secondary will be
much greater once you do this.  You should be careful to not short out a
transformer's secondary windings after you have performed this modification,
since you have removed part of the current limiting feature.  One Tesla coil
builder in Dallas, David Chapa, has a Tesla coil which puts out 48 inch+
discharges using ONE 15,000 volt, 60 ma neon transformer with this
modification!
_____________________________________________________________________________
    **** Neon transformers with current shunts removed are much more
    dangerous than shunt protected transformers - use caution!
_____________________________________________________________________________
Potential and distribution transformers

For our purposes, watts and kva (kilovolt*amps) are the same thing.  Whenever
I say this, engineers will always jump to their feet and start shouting things
about reactances and inductances and phases and impedances, but the fact is
that in 99 out of 100 cases, experimenters can either use the term "kilowatts"
or they can use the term "kva" and the transformer will never know the
difference.  If you are going to use a potential transformer for a Tesla coil,
or other similar intermittent duty application, you can push the transformer
to twice or even three times its specification plate power rating safely.
This means that you can operate a 5 kva transformer at 10 kva for short
periods of time, with time-outs to allow the core and windings to cool down.

Be aware that you will NOT get the same performance out of a 5 kva transformer
pushed to 10 kva as you will from a 10 kva transformer running at its rated 10
kva!  Larger transformers use heavier wire, and peak or instantaneous currents
will always be larger in the bigger transformers.  A Tesla coil using a 10 kva
transformer, running at 10 kva will always outperform a 5 kva transformer
pushed to 10 kva.  More instantaneous power is always available from the
larger transformer.

Main point: you can get a lot more power out of a transformer than the spec
plate shows.

Potential transformers usually can be found in old Ham radio transmitters,
r.f.  induction heating units, microwave ovens, radar transmitters, etc.
Output voltage ratings can run from a few hundred to several thousand volts.
Current available in the secondary windings is always much higher than in neon
transformers.
_____________________________________________________________________________
                       ***** Lethality Warning!  ******
                   *** Death, Doom and Destruction! ********

    Potential transformers are MUCH more dangerous to work with than neon
    transformers, since the current is higher and more likely to cause
    serious physical damage.  A neon transformer will cause a nasty shock
    and a mild burn.  A large potential or distribution transformer can
    burn off an entire arm or leg!  Large potential transformers will
    literally cook you; it can make the blood in your body boil and
    explode.

    YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST BE CAREFUL AT ALL TIMES WHEN WORKING WITH POTENTIAL
    AND DISTRIBUTION TRANSFORMERS!  NEVER WORK ON POTENTIAL/DISTRIBUTION
    TRANSFORMERS ALONE - ALWAYS HAVE SOMEONE WATCHING YOU IN CASE SOMETHING
    GOES WRONG.  USE RUBBER MATS ON THE FLOOR.  USE HIGH VOLTAGE RUBBER
    GLOVES.  USE COMMON SENSE!
_____________________________________________________________________________
Potential transformers are not self-limiting in current.  What does this mean
in real life?  If you were to take a large potential transformer, say like out
of a large radar transmitter, or a distribution transformer (pole pig) and if
you connect it to your electrical outlet in your lab, it will probably just
sit there and produce a lot of high voltage as it quietly hums.

If you measure the current flowing in the transformer's primary, it will be a
piddly three or four amps.  UNTIL you connect it to a load!  If you try to
connect the high voltage to a spark gap, or to a Tesla coil, you will hear a
violent hum, the lights will dim, and you will instantly blow the circuit
breakers in your power panel.  Guaranteed!

Think about it for a minute.  A standard pole pig is designed to step DOWN
12,400 volts to 120 and 220 volts, to run your house, and two or three of your
neighbors' houses.  The typical house uses 110 and 220 volts, usually up to a
couple hundred amps.  Combine the power usage of four houses, and the
transformer has to supply 220 volts at maybe 800 amps.  That's a LOT of amps!

We experimenters usually connect these monster transformers BACKWARDS, putting
in 120 or 220 volts so we can get out 12,400 volts to run our Tesla coils and
other nefarious devices.  Guess how many amps that transformer is going to
want to pull from the 220 volt line so that it can deliver that 12,400 volts
at its rated current?  Right!  It will want to pull 800 amps.  Most of us are
not going to be able to supply 220 volts at 800 amps - and indeed, we don't
WANT to!  We have to limit the current to something reasonable - maybe 20 or
50 or 100 amps.  We do this by placing a current limiting device in series
with the primary of the transformer.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Limiting current and power

How do you limit the current in the primary circuit?  By placing either a
resistor or an inductor (coil) or a variable transformer (variac) in series
with the primary of the transformer, or a combination of these.

Large potential/distribution transformers are rated at several thousand watts.
The resistor or inductor or variac that you use with a transformer of this
type must be capable of handling the maximum rated power you intend to work
with.  If you have a 5,000 watt transformer (5 kva), then you're going to need
to limit the power available to the transformer to 5 kva or less, and your
limiting device must be capable of handling this same amount of power!

You may be asking yourself, where am I going to get a 5,000 watt resistor?
You can use heating elements out of electric heaters and ovens, and even
electric water heater elements (which cost aboust $7).

When using variacs, remember that you cannot use a 500 watt variac to control
a 5,000 watt transformer, unless you expect to limit the transformer's power
to 500 watts or less.  If you have a 5 kva transformer, and you expect to push
it near 5 kva, then you will need variacs rated near 5 kva.  220 volt variacs
would need to be rated at 20 to 30 amps.  Remember that variacs too, can be
pushed beyond their rated output in watts, but only for short lengths of time.

You are best off here using variacs rated near the power level you expect to
work at.  You will get into trouble using variacs too small or too large!  Too
small, and the windings will fry.  Too large and you cannot limit the current
adequately.  For example, it is not a good idea to use 10 kva variacs to
control the current going to, say, a 1 kva transformer.  Why?  The internal
resistance of the variac will be so low that you may not be able to limit
current to a controllable level.

Most big Tesla coils use a combination of two variacs in series to control
power to the potential transformer.  One variac is used as a giant current
limiting inductor, and the other variac is used to vary voltage.  You may also
take a Lincoln arc welder, short the output leads (the low voltage side), and
connect the 115 or 220 volt side of the welder in series with your variac and
potential transformer.  The potential transformer cannot receive more current
than can pass through the primary of the welder.  You may even use the current
settings on the welder to pre-select different current settings (the higher
the current setting, the more power will flow through the primary circuit).

Let us say that under full load, your welder will pull 25 amps, max on the
primary (220 volt) side.  Placing it in series with your potential transformer
guarantees that the transformer cannot pull more than 25 amps either!

I've even used a 3,000 watt clothes dryer in series with a transformer to act
as a current limiter!

As I mentioned earlier, most large Tesla coil controllers use two variacs in
series to control the voltage and current going to a potential transformer.
You do, however, want to make sure that you don't adjust the current limiting
variac for too few turns, or the windings will burn.  Start out so that your
current limiting variac has current going through the maximum number of turns.

Turn your "voltage" adjusting variac up and see what how your potential
transformer performs.  Turn the voltage down, and adjust the current limiting
variac so that there are a few less turns and increase your voltage again.

Repeat this procedure until operation is optimal.  You want just enough of an
inductance in the current limiting variac so that magnetic saturation occurs
at just the desired power level.  You may also place high power, low
resistance heating elements in series with the variac(s) and/or other
inductive current limiters.

Appliance repair centers usually have the heating elements in stock.  You may
use the "exposed coil" type of element, and place sliding taps on the coiled
nichrome wire element and precisely adjust the resistance of the element.

You may also parallel heating elements to allow more current to flow through
the circuit.  For example, if you place a 1,000 watt heating element in series
with a potential transformer, you've just guaranteed that no more than 1,000
watts of power can flow through the primary of the transformer.  If you place
a second 1,000 watt element across (in parallel) with the first heating
element, you allow a maximum of 2,000 watts of power to flow through the
primary of the transformer, etc..

One note on using heating elements to limit current: a heating element has a
lower resistance when it is cold than when it is hot.  You will start out with
a lot of current, and as the element gets hot, the current will drop.  This is
why heating elements are seldom used by themselves to limit current.  Usually
a very large wattage element is used in series with one or two variacs.  Do I
need to remind you if you run power through a heating element it will get hot?
(duuuuuhhh?????) Make sure you mount the electric heating elements so that the
heat produced doesn't burn anything.

A final way to adjust the current is to use a variac to control voltage, and
an electrolytic resistor element to limit the current.  An electrolytic
resistor can be made from two stainless steel plates, about one foot square,
immersed in an insulated container filled with a mixture of water and
bicarbonate of soda.

Build your electrolytic resistor by taking a plastic trash can, set it on a
plexiglass plate or rubber pad, and fill it 2/3 full with warm water.  Mix in
bicarbonate of soda until the mixture saturates (the soda stops dissolving and
starts to accumulate on the bottom of the tub).  Your two stainless steel
plates are placed in the solution a few inches apart.

You will control current by raising and lowering the plates into the solution.
The more of the plate surface which is in the solution, the more current that
can flow between the two plates.

This variable resistor is connected in SERIES with your control variacs to
limit current.  Make sure the control rods which raise and lower the plates
are insulated!  You may even use a reversible geared motor with a worm drive
to operate the control rods.  During operation, the water will get hot.  Do
not operate the electrolytic resistor for extended runs, or the water may
boil.
_____________________________________________________________________________

                         ******** WARNING #1 ********

    DO NOT USE SALT WATER AS THE ELECTROLYTIC SOLUTION!!!!!  DURING
    ELECTROLYSIS, THE NaCl (SODIUM CHLORIDE) IN THE WATER WILL DECOMPOSE
    AND RELEASE LARGE QUANTITIES OF CHLORINE GAS WHICH IS VERY POISONOUS!
    EVEN SMALL AMOUNTS OF CHLORINE CAN CAUSE SERIOUS BURNS TO THE LUNGS.
    USE BICARBONATE OF SODA, NOT SALT.

                         ********* WARNING #2 ********

    ELECTROLYSIS WILL ALWAYS RELEASE OXYGEN AND HYDROGEN GAS, WHICH FORM A
    VERY EXPLOSIVE MIXTURE, IF CONFINED.  MAKE SURE YOUR ELECTROLYTIC
    RESISTOR IS VERY WELL VENTILATED!
_____________________________________________________________________________
A word about capacitors

Many circuits involving power transformers also involve capacitors.
Capacitors can store appreciable quantities of electrical power.  High voltage
capacitors can hold enough of a residual charge to cause a violent muscle
contraction, and large capacitors can even deliver enough charge to kill you.

Always discharge a capacitor with a discharge tool (a high wattage, 250k ohm
resistor with well-insulated leads works well) before servicing capacitors.
Most Tesla coil designs will self-discharge capacitors through the power
transformer when power is turned off.  There is an exception, however!  Some
Tesla coils designs use TWO capacitors in a "balanced driver" configuration.
The nature of this design is such that the caps can retain a charge even after
power has been disconnected.

Rule #2: always discharge capacitors before handling them.

I'd like to finish this paper by making some final comments on safety:

  1)  I always stand on rubber mats to insulate me from ground.
  2)  I keep one hand behind me when making adjustments on high voltage
      equipment.
  3)  I have an observer on hand who knows CPR.
  4)  I keep a cordless phone handy in case of emergency.
  5)  I keep a fire extinguisher nearby - remember, pole pigs are filled with
      flammable oil!
  6)  I use indicator lights to show when power is on.
  7)  I always disconnect power at both the circuit mains and at the on/off
      switch to insure that the circuit is DEAD, so I won't be, before working
      on circuits powered by high voltage transformers.

And I repeat the quote:

    *****************************************************************
    "I'm more careful when working on big transformers than just about
    anything else I do, because I know that I probably won't survive making
    a mistake."
    *****************************************************************

Distribution transformers will burn off arms and legs and kill you.  It's not
a pretty way to die.  Be super careful!

Informational note: Interested researchers may obtain invaluable information
on high voltage equipment, specifically Tesla coil related, from the Tesla
Coil Builders Of Richmond (VA).  Richard Hull is one of the mainstays of this
excellent group of researchers.  Dozens of 2 hour videos are available on the
proper ways to test, rebuild, and connect transformers and capacitors of all
sizes, and using them in Tesla coils to produce voltages as high as several
million volts.  Distribution and potential transformers beyond 10 kva are
sometimes used, and man-made lightning 13 feet long (and more) is produced
from large Tesla coils and shown.  Safe operation is always stressed.  Ask for
a catalog of available video tapes and books.

    The address for this info is:

                                 Richard Hull
                            TCBOR 7103 Hermitage Rd
                               Richmond VA 23338
_____________________________________________________________________________
Vanguard Note

   A Superb Paper!  Very well written, humorous as well as being highly
   informative and safety conscious.

   The 2.3 million volt Tesla Coil we used in our shows are posted on KeelyNet
   as ZAP1, ZAP2 and ZAP3.GIF.  We no longer have this coil since it was
   leased for experimental and show purposes.  The system as pictured had a
   single variac, feeding a pole pig, running off 220VAC.  The pole pig fed a
   rotating tungsten spark gap which fed the primary.  The coil was tuned to
   170kHZ.  For safety purposes, a dead man switch (had to be held closed
   manually to keep power flowing) was used and controlled by the operator.

   Since we ran the high voltage over the body, we took the least chances we
   could for shocks.  Only one time was anyone ever 'tingled' and that was me
   when I was doing our ZAP show.  I leaned over too far toward the audience
   and a bolt that I was shooting off my fingers, arced around to one of the
   lightning rods....I disengaged, but it was quite a shock at around 900,000
   volts.

   Curious events we noticed during our Tesla coil operation...

   A digital watch still ran fine after being accidentally left on during the
   show in which part of the routine was to allow 900,000 VDC to run over the
   body.

   During one demonstration with all the theater lights turned off, I was
   watching the streamers shoot off my fingers and saw small golden yellow
   spheres that were about the size of glowing BBs.

   They were randomly shooting from the skin into the bright blue plasma
   stream and could not be seen by Ron or Chuck from the necessary safe
   distance to keep from being hit with a bolt.

   We did not know what to make of them.  The effect ONLY OCCURRED around
   850KVDC or greater.  We tried to photograph the spheres, but could never
   get a good clean shot because of the distance.

   The bolts averaged around 3 to 6 feet at 900,000 depending on humidity and
   other conditions.  After much puzzlement, we came to the conclusion that
   the spheres must be glowing sodium, since salt had been sprayed on the
   metal plate on which I stood barefoot.

   To test this hypothesis, we made absolutely sure there was no outside salt
   introduced and the upper body, arms, hands and props were all cleaned with
   pure water.

   The glowing spheres still appeared.  The other idea was that it was cell
   salts containing sulphur since they glowed yellow.  It is a known
   phenomenon that high voltage streaming off the body in this manner can
   electrify and carry matter with it.  Perhaps it was dead skin cells.

   The funniest thing we saw was one time when Ron Barker stood on the metal
   plate (5 feet off the floor).  You had to wet your feet with salt water to
   increase conductivity, then spray your head and hair with distilled water
   to keep it from catching on fire.

   Ron did not get his head wet enough and so he was waving his hands around
   as Chuck increased the power to about 800,000 VDC.  Since high voltage
   streams most easily off of pointed structures, the fingers are the
   'logical' emitter.  However, I have shot it off my knuckles, elbows, nose
   and tongue....they wouldn't let me do the experiment I wanted to do....what
   a picture that would make!

   Anyway, as Ron moved his hands downward, the top of his head was not wet
   enough and we noticed a major series of bolts shoot out of the crown of his
   head.  At the time, we imagined we heard a thwump as a chunk of hair got
   blown off, but we got him down and he was all right.  Nothing really
   dangerous, just that it was so unexpected.  When the plasma is streaming at
   full velocity, it does cause burns and blackened holes in the skin.

   We really wanted to duplicate Dr. Nelsons picture as in HARDY1.GIF on
   KeelyNet but using a 2 million volt pyramid instead of the 100,000 volts he
   used.  If Mary and Dean Hardy are correct in their idea that such an
   arrangement generates a double helix beacon that is detectable by ET's who
   then come to investigate, we should get a mother ship with a 2 million volt
   coil.  We never did get a chance to set up that experiment because we were
   so dog tired from working our 40 hour real time jobs, then doing the
   lighting shows, 3 per day (Mon-Fri) and 5 on Sat and Sun.  It will
   definitely be something we want to do at the State Fair of Texas when we
   hit the lotto....

   Don't read this wrong, we aren't all crazy, just that if you don't try new
   things, you will end up saying, "I could have....".  As Bert points out, if
   you decide to do any experimenting with high voltage, be extremely careful.
   Good luck...>>>  Jerry
_____________________________________________________________________________