295 lines
14 KiB
Plaintext
295 lines
14 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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Tuesday, December 4, 1990 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
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Topic: Beginners Night
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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JWankerl Well... since I'm a beginner, is it okay if I ask how to use
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NewList2? Or does
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JWankerl that put me in the intermediate category and I'm not allowed to
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ask?
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Coach101 Since you new about the "2" you are an expert :)
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AFA Gary J :)
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JWankerl Expert? Gee, I get promoted fast around here! :-)
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AFL Dyfet That is a fair question for tonight Wankerl....
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JWankerl Okay... so... how do I work NewList2?
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Dave Lyons Joe, can you be more specific? Have you read what TB Ref 3 has to
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say about it?
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JWankerl Yep, dave. I read it. Everything is a resource and when I call
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NewList2 with
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JWankerl all parameters $FFFF and $FFFFFFFF and a default drawing routine,
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my machine
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JWankerl dies.
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Dave Lyons What is "a default drawing routine"?
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JWankerl NIL first parameter.
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Dave Lyons Are you using 5.0.3?
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JWankerl I want to add a member to my list, so I add the resource and
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update the size
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JWankerl field in my list control and mark that resource changed, then do I
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call
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JWankerl NewList2? Or do I gotta do something else, too?
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JWankerl Yes, 5.0.3
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Dave Lyons Hmmm...
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Dave Lyons Sounds right to me.
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JWankerl Well the machine dies. :-( What I do instead of NewList2 is to
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first dispose
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JWankerl of my old list control and then make a new one with NewControl2
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and it works.
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JWankerl But I don't like that - I'd rather use NewList2.
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Dave Lyons (Have you checked the TB Ref technote? Checking....)
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JWankerl Which technote is that?
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Dave Lyons GS TN #24. But I just looked & didn't see anything interesting on
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the List Manager.
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Dave Lyons Now checking another source (pun intended).
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Windrider5 Joe, I have also had trouble using the NewList 2 call with the
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"default
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Windrider5 but it uses a custom drawing routine.
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JWankerl Windrider: Does your machine crash into oblivion when you make
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the call?
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Windrider5 drawing routine" I have been using the source code from the Darts
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program
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Windrider5 yes
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Matt DTS (dave's a little touchy these days about the standard list member
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drawing routine. :)
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JWankerl So you think the problem is with the default drawing routine?
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Windrider5 Could be.
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Dave Lyons Matt, not in 5.0.3.
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Matt DTS Yeah, I know, but it's a chance to give you a hard time.
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AFL Dyfet While we're waiting on Dave....Are there any other beginners here
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who would
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AFL Dyfet like to get a question in the queue?
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Dave Lyons Wait, got it--
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons It appears to be a documentation bug. Try passing $FFFFFFFF for
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the draw routine & let me know
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Dave Lyons if -that- works okay.
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Dave Lyons I'll verify it & get it in a technote if this is right.
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JWankerl $FFFFFFFF???? Okay, I'll give it a try.
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JWankerl Would $FFFFFFFF be the default routine, or the routine that was
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last used, like
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JWankerl all the other $F...F values mean?
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Dave Lyons (Yes, the all Fs means "don't change the value.")
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AFL Dyfet Okay, since I didn't get to run it at the start, here goes the
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intro for
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AFL Dyfet tonight :)
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AFL Dyfet Good evening and welcome to the Apple II Development Conference
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AFL Dyfet Tonight is beginners night. This means we will be here to help
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AFL Dyfet the beginner. Feel free to bring up your questions and ask for
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AFL Dyfet help.
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JLeathlean Well, I'm not a beginner, but I do have a question
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AFL Dyfet ....Okay, I believe Leathlean has the
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next question
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AFL Dyfet for tonight....Go ahead Leathlean...
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JLeathlean Heh
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JLeathlean I'm having a problem with NewWindow2. I've created a window with
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Genesys, with
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JLeathlean a simple ICON and a StaticText box. I then use NewWindow 2 to put
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JLeathlean the window up. While it appears the call works - nothing appears
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on the screen
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JLeathlean and Nifty List shows the VisRgn is (0,0,0,0). I'm at a loss as to
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what's wrong
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JLeathlean ...
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Dave Lyons What's the window's alleged rectangle?
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Dave Lyons For that matter, is it Visible (bit $0020 on in the wFrameBits)?
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JWankerl Check the fVis flag, too.
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JLeathlean The rectangle is approx (120,280,100,300) As for Visible - that
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was defined
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JLeathlean in the window record by Genesys...
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Dave Lyons What does Nifty List display when you do a ~w ? Is your window
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listed in square brackets = invisible?
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JLeathlean I don't recall off hand... Assuming that it is invisible - what
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is the
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JLeathlean simplest method to make it visible? (even if it involves a
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toolcall).
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JWankerl _ShowWindow
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Dave Lyons In NL 3.0 or higher, type _ShowWindow(xxxxxx) where the Xs are
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your window pointer.
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Dave Lyons (Simpler = get the frame bits right when you create it, if you
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wanted to create it visible to start
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Dave Lyons with.)
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JLeathlean As far as I know - I believe the window frame is right. If not -
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I might have
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JLeathlean a complaint about Genesys... Thanks for the help...
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Coach101 But, even if the frame bits are wrong, will the vis
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Coach101 rgn look like nil?
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JLeathlean Who knows... At least I may have a solution... Buy DESIGN
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MASTER!
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JLeathlean <heh>
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Dave Lyons Yup, invisible windows can have (0,0)(0,0) for their region. No
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problem. The region *handle*
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Dave Lyons is not nil, but the bounds rect is all zeroes inside the handle.
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Coach101 Understood, my question was would a "normal" window that is
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invisible have a vis rgn of 0,0,0,0?
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JLeathlean Well - I'll try putting a ShowWindow in and see if that helps...
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Thanks for
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JLeathlean all the help...
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Dave Lyons Coach, Yes--I just dumped one a minute ago from Nifty List. My
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DIcEd "Clipboard" window
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Dave Lyons is invisible until you Show it, and it has a 0 vis rect.
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Coach101 Thanks
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Matt DTS (The VisRgn is probably empty so in case someone does any drawing
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it will be clipped out.)
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AFL Dyfet Okat, Reff has the next question...GA Reff...
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Reff Help!! When I run Prosel volume repair in test mode I get errors,
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file skipped
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Reff block in use. I assume that 2 files are trying to use the same
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block.
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Reff any ideas?
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JLeathlean That's correct - Prosel runs through each file in order while
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trying
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JLeathlean to verify the validity of the contents of the disk. If a file has
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used a block
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JLeathlean already marked by Mr. Fixit (Volume Repair) it will give that
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error. Somehow
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JLeathlean the bitmap has been contaminated. The easiest fix is to remove
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the offending
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JLeathlean file - and run Mr. Fixit again. The second time, it will give a
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Block Free
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JLeathlean Error. One of the two files has contaminated data. If you have a
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backup
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JLeathlean replace both of them, otherwise inspect them and see if you can
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determine which
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JLeathlean one is bad...
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Reff This is an ongoing problem. I have reformated 3 times and the
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errors multiply
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Reff I have had as many as 66
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AFA Gary J Ouch.
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AFL Dyfet GA Coach
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Coach101 If the volume is not too large, and if you want to
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Coach101 maximize your chance of not losing anything, and
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Coach101 if you cannot determine the two files that have
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Coach101 crossed their links, then save the entire volume
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Coach101 using ProSel's backup routine. Re-initialize the
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Coach101 volume and restore from the disk(s). If you try
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Coach101 deleting a file when the bit map is bad, things can
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Coach101 get even worse. If you really feel you must delete
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Coach101 the file, follow the instructions in the prosel
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Coach101 manual for deleting a file without releasing its blocks. ga
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Reff I have a good backup. I do a low level format and then restore.
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Last time I
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Reff ran for two days before I started getting errors
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JLeathlean ? what kind of hard drive/computer
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Coach101 Can you selectively restore a single file from your backup?
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Reff I use a GS with a Seagate 157n 48meg.
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AFA Gary J Do you have a ROM disk?
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Reff Yes I can selective restore.
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AFA Gary J Or, what kind of memory card?
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Reff I have a Ramfast could that cause a problem.
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Reff I have a Juice + Ram card 4 meg. It checks ok.
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AFA Gary J I had the file problem you had, but it was caused by a bad jumper
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on one of my
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AFA Gary J memory cards. The system hung during a write operation on one or
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two occasions
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AFA Gary J before I fixed the card.
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AFA Gary J ga
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Coach101 Reff, when you do the restore, does an a volume check run clean
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immediately afterward?
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Reff Volume cheks ok after a restore. last time for 2 days
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AFA Gary J Any particular set of files being corrupted each time?
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AFA Gary J (Like, files in a directory you download to a lot?)
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Coach101 Or any particular block addresses
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AFA Gary J Or, files in a directory you use a particular program with?
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Reff No just random in several directories.
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AFA Gary J (Or, as Coach said :)
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Reff No the files that are corrupted are not evev being accessed.
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Coach101 Reff, do you know if the same block numbers, irrespective of what
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files think they own
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Coach101 them, are always involved?
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Matt DTS It does sound like someone stepping on cached directories or bad
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memory for same.
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AFA Gary J ...which could have something to do with the RAMfast
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Coach101 Directories or VTOC bit-maps Matt?
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Reff Could the Finder data be writing back over these files
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Coach101 Do you see any other anomalies PRIOR to discovering the duplicate
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block allocations?
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Reff I had two drives connected and I was overwriting the directories
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on the 2nd
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Reff so I disconected it
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Reff My "dir" files were changed to "wrp" file type.
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Matt DTS Either, coach.
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Coach101 How long are your cables and where are the terminators?
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JLeathlean Also - which SCSI - Old or HS...
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Matt DTS That would say directory blocks, wouldn't you think?
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Reff My cables are short.
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Reff RAMfast
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JLeathlean It probably wouldn't hurt to add a pass-thru terminator at the
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computer end
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JLeathlean provided the Ramfast card isn't self terminated (I don't know
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myself)
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Coach101 Terminators?
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JLeathlean BTW: how old is your drive?
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Reff Drive is slightly less than 1 year old.
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Reff I'm about to reformat for the 4th time, change cables and then put
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my rev c
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Reff back in
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Coach101 Reff, if you had a case of a drive that was not being used (the
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seond) drive having
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Coach101 its directories dingled, I would look very closely
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Coach101 at the SCSI card, cables, addressing etc. Though
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Coach101 all of you symptoms don't really dovetail to cabling
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Coach101 that one (writing on the wrong drive) sure does and
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Coach101 it would be best to squash it before further chasing..
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Coach101 ga
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Reff I unhooked the second drive then my open blocks strted
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Reff unhooked started
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JLeathlean Writing on the wrong drive could be indicative of duplicate SCSI
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id's.
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Matt DTS The Apple cards just get confused and kind of die, but RAMfast
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might respond differently.
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Coach101 Or noise/crosstalk/reflections on poor, defective, improperly
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terminated cables....
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Reff What woud you replace first drive, cable or card?
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Coach101 I would use a high quality (and SHORT) system cable.
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Coach101 Terminator at system cable entry to first device.
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Coach101 If I had more than one device I would also place a
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Coach101 terminator at the end of the chain. The SCSI
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Coach101 specification requires a terminator at each end but
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Coach101 Apple uses a short cable and gets away with one
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Coach101 terminator for a single device. ga
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Coach101 Wait one....
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Coach101 Are your drives internally or externally terminated? And how sure
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of that are you?
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Reff I have an end of a cable without a termnator. It is where I
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removed my tape
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Reff backup
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Reff but I have a terminator on the other end
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Coach101 You have a "dangling" connector?
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Reff This configuration has been the same for two weeks without a
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problem though.
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Reff Yes a dangling connector where I removed my tape drive.
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Coach101 Sometimes you can bend the rules and not get hurt.
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Coach101 Sometimes you bend the rules and get burned...
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Coach101 In the worst case, you bend the rules and get an intermittent
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problem....
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Coach101 I know that a lot of the times you can do without
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Coach101 terminators, have dangling cables, etc.
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Coach101 However, to really determine if it is causing a problem you would
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have to put an oscilloscope
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Coach101 on the lines and look at signal levels, rise times, fall times,
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and REFLECTIONS.
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Coach101 If you have a dangling cable, you WILL have reflections. THe nice
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low impedance of your SCSI
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Coach101 system is looking at an "infinite" impedance termination on the
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dangling cable. A reflection
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Coach101 will result. Whether the reflection is damaging or not is hard to
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say.
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Reff I have another cable I'll try. I was just about to shut down and
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try that.
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Reff But would all that cause two files to try to use the same block?
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JLeathlean Fate... or bad programming...
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Coach101 If you are getting reflections in the cable system, any bit could
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get inverted. I have chased
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Coach101 SCSI problems that would only show up on a specific
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JLeathlean Try turning off the DMA. If the computer memory is flaky - it
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could cause
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JLeathlean the problem...
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Coach101 data pattern (some 200 bytes long) and the whole
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Coach101 problem turned out to be too long a cable (actually too
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Coach101 much capicitance)... Play by the rules to be
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Coach101 safe...
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AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any other questions for tonight folks?
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Reff Thanks for all the tips.
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