495 lines
24 KiB
Plaintext
495 lines
24 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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Tuesday, May 15, 1990 10:00 p.m. eastern time
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Topic: Beginners Night
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Special Guest: Ron Lichty (Co-author of the book "Programming the
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Apple IIGS in Assembly Language"
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, everyone, good evening and welcome to the Apple II
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AFL Dyfet Development Conference (Excellant work, Parik!). Tonight is
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beginners
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AFL Dyfet night here. This is an opertunity for those new to programming
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to
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AFL Dyfet get expert advice. I would like to start tonights conference by
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turning over
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AFL Dyfet the floor briefly to Ron Lichty, Co-author of "Programming the
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Apple IIgs in
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AFL Dyfet Assembly Language", who has an announcement to make...Ga Ron...
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RonLichty Thanks, David.
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RonLichty As you know, Programming the Apple IIGS in Assembly Language has
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been
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RonLichty called "a must for would-be Apple IIGS programmers".
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RonLichty Using the APW or ORCA/M assembler, the reader develops,
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RonLichty in stages a Hello, World program -- from an 8-line program
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RonLichty that prints on the text screen to a full-blown desktop application
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with
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RonLichty menu bar, dialogs, icons, and multiple, sizeable, scrollable
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windows.
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RonLichty Plus it includes the reference section from our earlier book
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RonLichty that everyone likes so much.
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RonLichty And we've had a disk out in APW and ORCA/M assembly all along.
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RonLichty Cecil Fretwell announced here a few weeks ago
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RonLichty that he had converted Hello, World into C for both
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RonLichty APW and ORCA versions of C.
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RonLichty His disk contains a cross-reference file that line-numbers the
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entire final
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RonLichty C csource code and cross-references its functions and variables
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RonLichty in addition to providing source and compiles at all the points
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RonLichty the other disk does.
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RonLichty Now Ken Kashmarek, author of SoftSwitch, has translated Hello,
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World
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RonLichty for Merlin 16+ assembler. The result is two different versions of
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the
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RonLichty final program to compare. Ken converted the first version by
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hand,
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RonLichty line by line, from the book; he used the new Merlin supermacros,
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RonLichty which whorten the source file considerably, and added a couple
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inline macros
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RonLichty to make the programming easier, but left off the comment lines.
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RonLichty He created the second by running the Merlin 16+ Converter routine
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on the
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RonLichty original program listing, so it includes all comment lines,
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RonLichty but does not use the supermacros.
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RonLichty Anyway, all are available from me by mail.
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RonLichty If you can't find the book in a bookstore, it is too.
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RonLichty The book: $32; APW/ORCA/M disk $20; C disk $20; Merlin disk $10.
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RonLichty From Ron Lichty, P.O. Box 27262, San Francisco, CA 94127
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RonLichty (U.S. funds only, and CA tax for CA residents please).
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RonLichty Also, there's an errata
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RonLichty of the two bugs, the error in the text, and the olne serious typo
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that
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RonLichty have been found in the book just by sending a self-addressed,
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stamped
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RonLichty envelope to the same address.
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RonLichty Whew.
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RonLichty ga
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RonLichty Oh, can I add
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RonLichty for those who don't know, that I've returned to engineering
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RonLichty from product marketing -- I'm working on the Apple IIGS Finder
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RonLichty at Apple these days. ga
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AFA Parik ()()()()()()()()()() *yipee*!!!
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A2GS Yay!!
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AFL Dyfet Thank you, Ron...that is a long brief intro :)...Go ahead
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Parik...
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AFA Parik real quickly; how did you determine the # of cycles in your 1st
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65816 book ron?
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AFA Parik for each opcode that is. ga
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RonLichty Let me think back that far...
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A2GS He used a stopwatch naturally. :)
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RonLichty We had several sources, most of them wrong in at least some
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areas.
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RonLichty We had the data sheet from Western Design,
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RonLichty a set of by-addressing-mode cycle descriptions from Western
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Design,
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RonLichty a similar kind of look from insiders at Apple,
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RonLichty a reference card from GTE (different errors from the Western
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Design ones)
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RonLichty and I think at least one other source.
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AFA Parik ok. just checking if logic analyzer was used. thanks! ga
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(done)
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RonLichty We did not have any way, ourselves, to prove one thing or
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another,
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RonLichty if I remember correctly,
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RonLichty but just puzzled out all the data until it made sense.
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RonLichty ga
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AFL Dyfet Go ahead A2...
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A2GS Are the correct cycle timings available from WD?
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RonLichty I would use the ones from our book.
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RonLichty As far as I know, we got them all right.
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RonLichty ga
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RonLichty Thanks.
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AFA Parik what is the picture on your 1st book? the motherboard?
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RonLichty That's the mask of the chip itself.
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RonLichty I have one blown up to poster size.
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RonLichty It's really beautiful.
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RonLichty When Hayden
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RonLichty was publishing ORCA/M assembler, they did full-color
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RonLichty separations and printed the posters. ga
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AFL Dyfet Go ahead Scott...
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AFL Scott How do you like being back in Engineering?
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RonLichty It was really hard, at first. I had to get used to
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RonLichty not earning a living talking to people, both online and on the
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phone!
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RonLichty And the Finder code is, as you might imagine, a bit complex.
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RonLichty But I have always liked solving a good problem, so I'm happy.
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ga
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AFL Dyfet (an honest living, Engineering :)... Go ahead, Wind...
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AFL Dyfet While we're waiting on Windrider, Go ahead Floyd....
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AFL Floyd Hi, Ron. I don't know if you are aware of it or not, but there
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are a few
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AFL Floyd Finder patches floating around that allow folders on the desktop
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and allow
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AFL Floyd the default quit dialog to be changed. I hope you and Jim and the
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other
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AFL Floyd Finder gurus consider changing the Finder to allow stuff like
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this. ga
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RonLichty I've seen several patches. But would like to see the ones
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RonLichty you've just listed--don't think I've seen those.
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Michael515 Are the patches in AUT Floyd?
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RonLichty We're always looking to our users for input on how we can
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improve
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RonLichty things.
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AFL Floyd Look in the "IIGS Utilities/Finder Patches" topic of the Utilties
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forum,
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AFL Floyd keyword AUT. (blatant plug) ;)
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AFL Floyd Oh, one more thing...put back "Remove" in the menu for quick
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deleting. ;)
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AFL Floyd ga
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RonLichty Thanks for the information on that.
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RonLichty What if "Remove" moved the file to the trash instead of deleting
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it?
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AFL Floyd That is even better, Ron! ga
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AFL Dyfet Go ahead, Windrider...
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Windrider5 I have been programming the IIgs using C for a couple of years
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Windrider5 Do you think it is worth it to learn assembly language?
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RonLichty Should you learn assembly? Well,
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RonLichty that really depends on what you want to get out of programming.
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RonLichty I like assembly because it lets me get right down into the
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processor
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RonLichty and listen to the gates open and close.
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AFA Gary J :)
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RonLichty When I write in assembly, I know exactly what's going on with the
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machine.
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RonLichty And my code is a lot shorter and a lot faster.
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RonLichty It takes longer to write than C, though given C's propensity
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RonLichty for null pointers and it's write-only nature,
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RonLichty I'm not sure assembly is a lot more dangerous than C to write
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in.
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RonLichty You can certainly do things like floating point a lot easier in
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C.
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Windrider5 write-only nature?
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RonLichty I personally didn't find learning assembly hard.
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RonLichty I do get annoyed by the addressing modes that show up only
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RonLichty with certain instructions.
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Coach101 Amen!
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RonLichty But the 65816 is a kludge built on the kludge of the 6502 :)
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RonLichty And I think there are a lot of us who find its quirks rather
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winning!
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AFL Dyfet On the other hand, it's more balanced than the 8086 instruction
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set :)
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RonLichty By C's write-only nature, I mean
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RonLichty that while C is easy to write because you type so few
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characters,
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Dave Lyons <-- doesn't find C particularly write-only
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RonLichty reading the code you wrote last week in C can be as hard as
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reading
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RonLichty assembly you wrote last week. Especially if you do what many
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RonLichty good programmers do and succumb to the clarion call of terseness
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RonLichty that C offers. I think it may be possible to write an entire
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program
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RonLichty in a single C statement. And all too many C programmers try to do
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it!
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RonLichty Let me add that I agree with you, David, that
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RonLichty I'd much rather have a 65xx processor than an 8086 family
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processor.
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RonLichty I've written code generators for compilers for both.
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RonLichty The 8086, with its banks built on 16-byte boundaries, is an ugly
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kludge
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RonLichty (as opposed to the 6502, which (I suspect entirely by chance)
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turned
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RonLichty out to be a nice kludge).
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A2GS Somewhat similar to the drawbacks on the 68000!
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RonLichty Also, have you ever tried to decipher the structure of
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RonLichty opcodes on the 8086?
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AFL Dyfet :)
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RonLichty They are based on two bits here and three bits there and
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AFL Dyfet Up to 7 byte sequences :)
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RonLichty prebytes and post bytes and... Yuck!!!!!
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RonLichty ga
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Go ahead Coach...
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Coach101 As to learning assembly,
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Coach101 Unless you are into writing device drivers or some other, rather
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internal, parts of the IIgs
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Coach101 environment, you can do everything from C (and with Orca-C, no
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little interface glue in assembler)
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Coach101 So, you will learn a lot about how machines really work by writing
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in assembler, but it is not
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Coach101 required in order to write most things for this system. As to
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"Write Only C"...
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Coach101 Ron, I think it is not the language but the programmer. The same
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terseness and lack of comments will
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Coach101 render an assembly program even more unreadable. My personal
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hatred is the race to see how much
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Coach101 code (as opposed to loop control) a C programmer can kram into a
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"for" statement.... On processors...
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Coach101 I think the 8086 was designed by a hardware "weenie" and the 68xxx
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(which I think is the best a
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AFL Dyfet And let's not forget while loops controlled by nested trinaries
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:)...
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Coach101 architecture available) by a software architect :)
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Coach101 Done.... ga
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RonLichty I'd have to agree with most of that
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RonLichty I was really comparing C with Pascal regarding it's
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RonLichty write-only nature.
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RonLichty I think of C as a language you can twist into a moebius strip or
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RonLichty maybe a Klein (sp?) bottle.
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RonLichty C can be as straight-forward as Pascal, but bad
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RonLichty programming practice often twists it otherwise. :)_
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RonLichty I would also suggest
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RonLichty assembly as the language to use on the IIGS for animation
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RonLichty and in some situations for tight loops.
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RonLichty Code that has to run fast, so is optimized in the midst
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RonLichty of a C or Pascal program by translating that code
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RonLichty into assembly.
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RonLichty Most commercial programs
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RonLichty I know tend to be written in C or Pascal with
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RonLichty lots of drops into assembly when necessary
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RonLichty (though, of course, there are many commercial programs
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RonLichty written in assembly entirely on the II and IIGS).
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RonLichty We wrote the IIGS Sales Demo program in assembly
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RonLichty in part to optimize for speed and in part because that's all there
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was! ga
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AFL Dyfet One should consider that unix is written in C (for good or bad
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:)...A good C
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AFL Dyfet compiler will allow you to mix assembly code fairly easily when
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you need it,
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AFL Dyfet and can be used to write fairly easy to maintain code...(or can be
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abused :)...
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AFL Dyfet I believe Floyd had a comment...GA Floyd...
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AFL Floyd In reference to terseness, it is very helpful to make sure one's
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variable,
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AFL Floyd constants and function names are as descriptive as possible.
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Doing this in
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AFL Floyd my code almost makes it self-documenting.. I prefer C for a
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high-level
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AFL Floyd language, but my C code isn't very terse. It looks more like
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Pascal (which
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AFL Floyd used to be my favorite high-level language.) ga
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AFL Dyfet I prefer C because I find less road-blocks between me and what I
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am trying to
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AFL Dyfet do than in Pascal, where the compiler carefully controls what you
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can and
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AFL Dyfet cannot do...I often prefer to focus on trying to get the job done,
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and not on
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AFL Dyfet how the program should be made to look.
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AFL Dyfet Go ahead Floyd...
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AFL Floyd Even though I prefer C I think Pascal is the best first language
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to learn. ga
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AFL Dyfet I tend to agree, since Pascal does force the person to think and
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methodize what
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AFL Dyfet they are doing...Okay, I believe that SSSi has the next
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question....GA SSSi...
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SSSi Ron: hope we will see some resources attached to the Finder
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someday soon? As
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SSSi far as languages are concerned, I've used them all, but
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SSSi find that I am able to control the "vertical and horizontal"
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SSSi alot better in Assembly. Pascal is great for a beginning, but
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SSSi doesn't allow alot of the flexibility that I get from C. C is
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great too,
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SSSi but I spend alot of time in the debugger (my fault), and I find
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SSSi that what I see is what I get. I really do think that a
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programming
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SSSi language is a presonal kind of thing, something
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SSSi that each programmer has to try and decide for one's self. GA
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AFL Dyfet Go ahead Coach...
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Coach101 If one is programming for personal enjoyment, then the language is
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a personal choice....
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Coach101 If one is programming for a living, assembly is just NOT a choice
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anymore. Find the high level
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Coach101 language you like best and use that with drops into assembler as
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needed for speed or system
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Coach101 interfacing. ga
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe that A2 has the next question...GA A2...
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A2GS Ron, I realize (of course) that you can't vomment on unreleased
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products, but..
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AFL Floyd (Please, no vomiting!) ;)
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A2GS any possibility of getting a Mac FST in a future SYS. Disk? GA (1
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more Q to
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A2GS follow, after)
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A2GS Ooops :)
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RonLichty You're absolutely right, A2. I cannot comment on unreleased
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products! ga
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Go ahead with 2nd question A2...
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AFA Gary J :)
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A2GS Any news on the '832? (your closer to WD then I am :)
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RonLichty No, I don't have any news on the '832.
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RonLichty Bill hasn't been keeping me apprised of his progress
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RonLichty ga
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A2GS one comment....
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A2GS About languages, you knew it was coming...
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A2GS I think for pleasure use, any High level language that makes the
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programmer
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A2GS happy should be used, but on a professional side who is writing a
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program
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A2GS that the general public will have to use, he/she should use
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Assembly for
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A2GS quality reasons, or for know other reason then to offer the best
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speed]
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A2GS available to the program on the machine.
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A2GS GA
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A2GS know = no
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons On the other hand, if you choose a very *small* amount of the code
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to put in
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Dave Lyons assembly, leaving the rest in some high-level language, you can
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usually get all the speed
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Dave Lyons that the user is going to notice. Also, for applications
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Dave Lyons that spend most of their time inside toolbox calls anyway, it
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doesn't make that much different
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Dave Lyons what language the app was in. I don't have *strong*
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Dave Lyons preferences for any particular language...have written in
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Assembly, Pascal, and C, with a
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Dave Lyons preference for C over Pascal if I've got a good working
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implementation.
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Dave Lyons What *does* bug me is when I talk to
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Dave Lyons somebody who has written an application
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Dave Lyons in assembly & done something in a shabby way because
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Dave Lyons they didn't bother inventing a complex enough data structure,
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which would have been easier in
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Dave Lyons Pascal or C. (OTOH, I've seen people use fixed-sized arrays in
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high-level langauges, too,
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Dave Lyons for no good reason.) ga
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A2GS <---Not bothering to argue, his points make sense :)
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AFL Dyfet Thank you Dave...Okay, I believe the next question is from Doctor
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Why...GA.
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Doctor Why This is off the topic, but..... I have a cursor defined as a
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resource and would
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Doctor Why like to use it in an ORCA/Pascal program. The ? is how?
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AFL Dyfet Go ahead, Dave...
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Dave Lyons Make your resource "fixed", and call LoadResource to get it into
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memory. Dereference the handle
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Dave Lyons and feed it to SetCursor, with any necessary type-casting. For
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example,
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Dave Lyons CursorPtr myCursor; myCursor = (CursorPtr)
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(*LoadResource(rCursor,1L)); ...
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Dave Lyons SetCursor(myCursor); (course, you should check for an error on
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LoadResource) You may want to
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Dave Lyons mark the resource "preload" in addition to "fixed". ga
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Doctor Why Thanks, I'll give it a try.
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SSSi Yup! Also, make sure the current resource is your application or
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NDA! GA
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Dave Lyons (the current resource *app*, eh?)
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AFL Dyfet :)
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SSSi :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, any further comments or questions for tonight?
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I would like to thank Ron Lichty for stopping by
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tonight...
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A2GS Thanx Ron!
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AFA Gary J Yes, thanks for stopping by, Ron.
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A2GS Ron, Any more books in the works??
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RonLichty No. I'm still trying to recover from the last one. :)
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A2GS Are the tech note(s) for writing an FST available?
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A2GS yes/no/maybe?
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AFL Dyfet A2, there are no tech notes for writing FST's because Apple has
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reserved the
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AFL Dyfet sole right to itself for tampering with the OS...
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AFA Gary J Never, A2
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Dave Lyons A2GS, your question is misleading by using the word "the" in
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front
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Dave Lyons of "tech notes for writing an FST", because there aren't any...the
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policy has been, and continues
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Dave Lyons to be, that Apple doesn't support 3rd-parties writing FSTs. There
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are some decent reasons
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Dave Lyons for this, that I won't repeat here unless somebody really wants
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them, given the current FST design.
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A2GS That what I thought :(
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AFL Dyfet To put it simply, FST's are DANGEROUS, and subject to failure on
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future OS
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AFL Dyfet releases...
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Dave Lyons Yes, definitely.
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AFL Dyfet They are not streight forward, and there is no clearly/cleanly
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defined
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AFL Dyfet interface for them in GS/OS...
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A2GS Well, if their written in the same form (design) as the already
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written FST's..
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Dave Lyons Right, they *look* like the same kind of thing Device Drivers are,
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but they aren't.
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A2GS there shouldn't be any hazards, providing they are bugless.
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A2GS which is a BIG provision of course.
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Dave Lyons The catch is that Apple reserves the right to make changes in the
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way the OS works that *require*
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Dave Lyons changes to *all* FSTs.
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Dave Lyons It doesn't have to be a big change, either.
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A2GS I take it that the FST's do low-level work?
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AFL Dyfet Very
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Dave Lyons Yes, and fairly high-level work *too*. For many GS/OS calls,
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GS/OS does little more than pass
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Dave Lyons the call along to the appropriate FST.
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AFL Dyfet FST's call the undocumented and volitile internal GS/OS micro
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service call
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AFL Dyfet block as well for certain management operations.
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Dave Lyons True. (the "system service" vectors at 1FCxx)
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AFL Dyfet One option I would like to see in Finder is a preference to
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disable exploding
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AFL Dyfet windows...
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A2GS On a serious note, Ron, I would like to see a "Coomand Window"
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option in which
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A2GS you would be able to TYPE commands in for those which are not
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available or
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A2GS incapable of being reproduced on a totally mouse based system.
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A2GS Any possibility??
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Dave Lyons What commands are incapable of being reproduced on a totally
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mouse-based system?
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A2GS Filename search for one.
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A2GS And about a million more which are avaible under UNIX (which I
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generally hate)
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A2GS but have never used.
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Coach101 How about a "trainable" Finder (like the documentaion said would
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work)?
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Dave Lyons (Find File does it without having a command window!)
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AFL Dyfet (And to disable visual window closing when launching an app...just
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shut it
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AFL Dyfet down, clear the screen, and bring it in)...:)
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Dave Lyons Dyfet, it already doesn't visibly erase the windows, *except* for
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clipboard and trash.
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A2GS What about "Delete block of files on Device which fall under
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certain conditions
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A2GS "
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Dave Lyons What about "select files based on name, mod-date, etc" and then do
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any allowed
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Dave Lyons operations on them, including dragging to the trash?
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Coach101 The things I want most in Finder are:
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Coach101 1) Be able to put Folders on the desktop
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AFL Dyfet Yes!
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Coach101 2) Allow Finder to create Finder.Data files on servers. I hate
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|
having the location a function
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|
Coach101 of what was last done a Mac!
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Coach101 I am not sure if this is there in IIgs FInder, but
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A2GS Dave, generally, a command window will allow practically limitless
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|
expansion
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Coach101 how about being able to copy a file from folder to folder (as
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|
opposed to *move*)
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|
A2GS instead of having to deal with mile-long pop-menus or PDM's.
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Dave Lyons I'm not talking about long menus--just one item that would give
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you a dialog letting you specify
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Dave Lyons properties of files, and then just *select* the files. That way
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|
you could build on the knowledge
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Dave Lyons the user already has--once they discovered Select Files..., they
|
|
could use it with all the
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|
Dave Lyons things they already know how to do (like drag-to-trash).
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|
A2GS A little bit limiting...but basically is the same as my
|
|
request...any comment
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|
A2GS Ron??
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Dave Lyons Coach, I guess we're missing that feature (copy to another
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|
location on the same volume, without
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|
Dave Lyons using Duplicate & having to rename the copy later). On the Mac
|
|
finder it's just option-drag.
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|
Dave Lyons Problems w/ my idea: does this mean you can have things selected
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|
in several windows at once? Can
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|
A2GS Don't quite follow coach's prob. could you explain it again?
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|
Dave Lyons you have things selected that aren't in open windows?
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|
A2GS Coach?
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|
Coach101 I know.... Ever forget your on a IIgs when you copied a file?
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RonLichty I'm listening. But not doing any promising, of course. :)
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Coach101 If you drag a file between folders on the same voluem, Finder
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|
deletes the file from the source
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|
Coach101 folder and places the file in the destination folder. That is a
|
|
MOVE and not a COPY...
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|
Dave Lyons (Well, it just CHANGE_PATHs it.)
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AFL Dyfet I would suggest that if people have serious comments about
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|
improvements for the
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|
AFL Dyfet Finder, that we start a message topic for it...
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Coach101 On a Mac if you do the same thing but hold the OPTION key down,
|
|
you get two copies of the file
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|
Coach101 One in the soruce folder and one in the destination folder..
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|
OK?
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|
A2GS Oh...
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A2GS Ok.
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Dave Lyons ok
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A2GS A way of duplicating a file, in other words.
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Coach101 Dave, I know, but its easier to expalin as copy and delete :)
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A2GS Thanx for coming Ron and returning back to GS developing :)
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RonLichty please ABSOLUTELY feel free to email them to me.
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